Giving it the old college try
November 10, 2010 7:28 PM Subscribe
Can a high-school senior overcome middling grades and hope to get into college and become a nurse or psychologist, or is it too late? We've known a girl, whom I'll call Lisa, since she and our son were in first grade. We lost touch for a while, but we recently reconnected. She is the youngest of four and lives with her mother. None of her siblings nor her mother graduated from high school. Until this year, Lisa was thinking of joining the military after high school, but now she is interested in becoming a nurse or psychologist. My wife and I want to help her get into college. How can we best do that? We are meeting with her school counselor soon. We live in the Denver area.
Difficulty: Lisa's grades aren't great. She took the ACT last spring; scores were 20th percentile (math) to 50th (English). She's taking the ACT again next month and we're helping her study, especially math.
Good: She works hard and seems capable academically; she just never lived around anyone who was scholastically minded. (Two of her siblings also had mental health issues.)
Possibly good: She is 3/8 Native American and would be the first in her family to go to college.
Difficulty: Lisa's grades aren't great. She took the ACT last spring; scores were 20th percentile (math) to 50th (English). She's taking the ACT again next month and we're helping her study, especially math.
Good: She works hard and seems capable academically; she just never lived around anyone who was scholastically minded. (Two of her siblings also had mental health issues.)
Possibly good: She is 3/8 Native American and would be the first in her family to go to college.
Response by poster: Sidhedevil,
No, I don't think she's thought of that. It's an interesting idea.
posted by lukemeister at 7:35 PM on November 10, 2010
No, I don't think she's thought of that. It's an interesting idea.
posted by lukemeister at 7:35 PM on November 10, 2010
Community college might be a good first step. She can transfer into a four-year program afterward. They are very supportive for people who need a little help getting oriented to the rigors of college.
posted by Wordwoman at 7:38 PM on November 10, 2010 [19 favorites]
posted by Wordwoman at 7:38 PM on November 10, 2010 [19 favorites]
Community college saved me. I graduated from high school at the bottom of my class, but went on to excel at community college (after growing up a bit). From there I transfered into a very competitive top 10 4 year school. I was also the first in my family to pursue higher education, which was a plus. Transfer students have a lower dropout rate and are often preferred by 4 years schools for that reason. So yes, there is hope!
posted by Duffington at 7:43 PM on November 10, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by Duffington at 7:43 PM on November 10, 2010 [2 favorites]
Sidhedevil's advice is excellent. A lot of colleges and universities would be interested in admitting a first-generation college student from a Native American background. They would not be doing Lisa a service in admitting her, though, unless she were academically prepared to succeed in an environment where she has a lot more autonomy (that is, a lot less supervision) than she has in high school. A combination of mediocre grades and below-median ACT scores would give a lot of institutions pause. An enrichment year would be an opportunity to refine her academic skills, retake the ACT (and take the SAT if it's appropriate for the institutions to which she wants to apply), and also to identify the colleges and universities that would be the best matches for her interests.
She should definitely check out the American Indian College Fund, not just for potential scholarships but also for advice on where to apply, how to fund a college education, and the possibility of attending a tribal college.
On preview: a community college might be fine, but she should also check out tribal colleges.
posted by brianogilvie at 7:47 PM on November 10, 2010 [2 favorites]
She should definitely check out the American Indian College Fund, not just for potential scholarships but also for advice on where to apply, how to fund a college education, and the possibility of attending a tribal college.
On preview: a community college might be fine, but she should also check out tribal colleges.
posted by brianogilvie at 7:47 PM on November 10, 2010 [2 favorites]
Community college could be good if she makes sure to take classes that will transfer to a four-year college and if she avails herself of all the tutoring she can get. Is she a registered member of a tribe? If not, she should look into it because it will probably help her with financial aid. Check out this site.
posted by mareli at 7:47 PM on November 10, 2010
posted by mareli at 7:47 PM on November 10, 2010
(from Allenthar's fiancee) I work in college admissions for a "selective" university (as opposed to "very" or "extremely" selective). Nursing is an extremely difficult field to get into right now; most of the programs that she's familiar with are heavily impacted. Psychology might be easier, since a lot of schools like the one I work for will offer the program as a major in a broader liberal arts curriculum. The problem with psychology is that a bachelor's in psychology is almost useless, beyond having the bachelor's itself. Psychology as a profession requires extensive graduate school. This may not be an issue for "Lisa" if she's prepared to go to school for many years, but it's definitely something to keep in mind.
The best thing to do is to start asking questions to the universities that she might be interested in. That's what an admissions staff is for, after all. You might try looking at the partner universities for a terrific pre-college program for Native American students called College Horizons. If Lisa is already a senior, it's a little too late for her to participate in the program, but the partner schools have shown at least some interest in helping students of Native American descent get into college. It might be a good place to start.
Finally, I know this isn't as popular in circles where college is expected, but community college can provide a terrific option for a student who 1) hasn't done as well in high school as needed or 2) really doesn't know what they want to study. Due to the recession and massive budget cuts in our home state of California, community colleges are suddenly slammed, and their stigma is slowly changing. There's nothing wrong with attending a community college, especially if the student has a direction. My brother did two years of community college and transferred without a problem to UC Berkeley--not an easy school to get into at the moment. If Lisa chooses to go this route, make sure that she also keeps in touch with the admissions office at her desired final destination. They can help her make sure that she's on the right track for transfer admissions.
posted by Allenthar at 7:53 PM on November 10, 2010 [4 favorites]
The best thing to do is to start asking questions to the universities that she might be interested in. That's what an admissions staff is for, after all. You might try looking at the partner universities for a terrific pre-college program for Native American students called College Horizons. If Lisa is already a senior, it's a little too late for her to participate in the program, but the partner schools have shown at least some interest in helping students of Native American descent get into college. It might be a good place to start.
Finally, I know this isn't as popular in circles where college is expected, but community college can provide a terrific option for a student who 1) hasn't done as well in high school as needed or 2) really doesn't know what they want to study. Due to the recession and massive budget cuts in our home state of California, community colleges are suddenly slammed, and their stigma is slowly changing. There's nothing wrong with attending a community college, especially if the student has a direction. My brother did two years of community college and transferred without a problem to UC Berkeley--not an easy school to get into at the moment. If Lisa chooses to go this route, make sure that she also keeps in touch with the admissions office at her desired final destination. They can help her make sure that she's on the right track for transfer admissions.
posted by Allenthar at 7:53 PM on November 10, 2010 [4 favorites]
Community college is a great start. Most community colleges have great college transfer programs, with smaller class sizes and teachers who are focused on teaching, not research. Whether she were to choose a program like that or a more specific program like being a CNA (for whatever reason), they should have some good connections with career advising and placement. They should also have a good sense of working with students from disadvantaged/first-generation/not quite ready for a four-year school backgrounds. Finally, it's almost certainly going to be cheaper.
Transferring is usually way easier than getting into a four-year school as a freshman. Not only is the process less competitive in terms of sheer numbers, students have usually had plenty of time to show that they're used to the rigor of college-level work and have figured out many of their academic weaknesses. There's definitely a maturity component involved.
And yes, there are many scholarships available for women, Native Americans and first-generation students. She should specifically look into the TRIO programs, which are a set of federal programs available as scholarship and academic support resources throughout the undergraduate experience to students from backgrounds like hers.
posted by Madamina at 7:53 PM on November 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
Transferring is usually way easier than getting into a four-year school as a freshman. Not only is the process less competitive in terms of sheer numbers, students have usually had plenty of time to show that they're used to the rigor of college-level work and have figured out many of their academic weaknesses. There's definitely a maturity component involved.
And yes, there are many scholarships available for women, Native Americans and first-generation students. She should specifically look into the TRIO programs, which are a set of federal programs available as scholarship and academic support resources throughout the undergraduate experience to students from backgrounds like hers.
posted by Madamina at 7:53 PM on November 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
N-thing community college. It's dirt cheap compared to university, plus it's a good place to improve yourself academically. Darn near every community college program I've seen has medical / nurse type classes available too.
As far as ease of transferring credits, if it is a sufficiently large CC near a big public university, they probably have some sort of a sweet heart deal worked out. I've heard from people who attended Blinn College in TX (near Texas A&M main campus) and Austin Community College (same town as University of Texas main campus) that the course catalogues clearly indicate which courses transfer to the larger university, and which ones don't.
I know you're in the Denver area, but maybe a local community college has a hook up like that in your area.
posted by AMSBoethius at 7:57 PM on November 10, 2010
As far as ease of transferring credits, if it is a sufficiently large CC near a big public university, they probably have some sort of a sweet heart deal worked out. I've heard from people who attended Blinn College in TX (near Texas A&M main campus) and Austin Community College (same town as University of Texas main campus) that the course catalogues clearly indicate which courses transfer to the larger university, and which ones don't.
I know you're in the Denver area, but maybe a local community college has a hook up like that in your area.
posted by AMSBoethius at 7:57 PM on November 10, 2010
As far as ease of transferring credits, if it is a sufficiently large CC near a big public university, they probably have some sort of a sweet heart deal worked out.
That deal is called an articulation agreement. Some colleges don't publish these in as much detail as the one AMSBoethius describes, so it never hurts to ask an admissions person at the local community college if they have articulation agreements with any other college or university.
posted by dayintoday at 8:02 PM on November 10, 2010
That deal is called an articulation agreement. Some colleges don't publish these in as much detail as the one AMSBoethius describes, so it never hurts to ask an admissions person at the local community college if they have articulation agreements with any other college or university.
posted by dayintoday at 8:02 PM on November 10, 2010
If the written grammar of a psychologist I saw for 6 months is any indication, then yes, she can become a psychologist.*
*This is not a snark on her grades or intelligence in the least. It is a comment that there is more to being a psychologist than grades.
posted by zizzle at 8:18 PM on November 10, 2010
*This is not a snark on her grades or intelligence in the least. It is a comment that there is more to being a psychologist than grades.
posted by zizzle at 8:18 PM on November 10, 2010
I certainly don't want to diss community colleges, which are incredible institutions, but if she can find a way to make an "enrichment year" at a private high school work for her, she might be in a position to get an all-inclusive scholarship to a highly selective university.
Most very selective universities in the US would love to have more very qualified Native American Indian students among their student bodies; some of the older institutions actually have endowed scholarship funds targeted at Native American Indian students that go unspent because of a lack of applicants.
posted by Sidhedevil at 8:26 PM on November 10, 2010
Most very selective universities in the US would love to have more very qualified Native American Indian students among their student bodies; some of the older institutions actually have endowed scholarship funds targeted at Native American Indian students that go unspent because of a lack of applicants.
posted by Sidhedevil at 8:26 PM on November 10, 2010
If she can document that she is affiliated with a tribe, Southwest Indian Polytechnic Institute could be a great place to start. It is a Community college in Albuquerque that is geared towards native students. In Denver, Metro State College has programs geared towards helping students like Lisa manage the transition from high school to adulthood.
posted by pickypicky at 8:32 PM on November 10, 2010
posted by pickypicky at 8:32 PM on November 10, 2010
Response by poster: Thanks to everyone for the great answers so far. How does she establish Native ancestry? (It's from her father's side, and she has little or no contact with him.)
posted by lukemeister at 8:33 PM on November 10, 2010
posted by lukemeister at 8:33 PM on November 10, 2010
I have a vague recollection that transfer students do not get the same financial aid opportunities as more traditional first-year students, especially at selective institutions. I hope somebody can confirm or disconfirm this.
posted by Nomyte at 8:39 PM on November 10, 2010
posted by Nomyte at 8:39 PM on November 10, 2010
ask an admissions person at the local community college if they have articulation agreements with any other college or university
At my community college, the admissions counselors don't always know all the details about particular programs, including whether or not there are articulation agreements with another school. And since my school, like all the other CC's, is seeing huge jumps in enrollment, the college-wide advisers are swamped. It would be a good idea to speak to someone in the department in which she's interested in studying. (At a community college, you might even be able to talk to the department chair.) If she's interested in nursing, be sure to see the advisers in the nursing department (possibly in addition to any school-wide advising.) A nursing adviser or an adviser in the social sciences/psychology department knows their program better than anyone, and knows specifically which courses transfer, which sequence of courses is best, which teachers would be a good fit, etc., etc.
Another possibility to look into is taking a community college class while she is still in high school (assuming finances would allow it.) It doesn't necessarily have to be something that will transfer later, just something to get her on campus once or twice a week, like photography or art or web design or a one-credit hour class on the history of underwater basketweaving. Of course, the success of this depends on the student, but a taste of college life might be inspirational and/or help her nail down her specific interests.
posted by SuperSquirrel at 9:07 PM on November 10, 2010
At my community college, the admissions counselors don't always know all the details about particular programs, including whether or not there are articulation agreements with another school. And since my school, like all the other CC's, is seeing huge jumps in enrollment, the college-wide advisers are swamped. It would be a good idea to speak to someone in the department in which she's interested in studying. (At a community college, you might even be able to talk to the department chair.) If she's interested in nursing, be sure to see the advisers in the nursing department (possibly in addition to any school-wide advising.) A nursing adviser or an adviser in the social sciences/psychology department knows their program better than anyone, and knows specifically which courses transfer, which sequence of courses is best, which teachers would be a good fit, etc., etc.
Another possibility to look into is taking a community college class while she is still in high school (assuming finances would allow it.) It doesn't necessarily have to be something that will transfer later, just something to get her on campus once or twice a week, like photography or art or web design or a one-credit hour class on the history of underwater basketweaving. Of course, the success of this depends on the student, but a taste of college life might be inspirational and/or help her nail down her specific interests.
posted by SuperSquirrel at 9:07 PM on November 10, 2010
Absolutely Metro. It's got decent programs on its own, and it's easy to make the transition to CU Denver (same campus, many of the same facilities) or another school after a year or two.
But I wonder if she's ready to start college. She could consider working (at least) part time for a year or so to make sure she's ready to commit to college. My husband's an older student at Metro, and he puts the work in and gets grants, but he knows people who've been dicking around for five years at Metro without graduating.
posted by freshwater at 9:09 PM on November 10, 2010
But I wonder if she's ready to start college. She could consider working (at least) part time for a year or so to make sure she's ready to commit to college. My husband's an older student at Metro, and he puts the work in and gets grants, but he knows people who've been dicking around for five years at Metro without graduating.
posted by freshwater at 9:09 PM on November 10, 2010
She may want to join the military first. Besides getting a free college education, the military will give her discipline, self confidence, direction, and a bunch of other benefits that will introduce structure into her life. A friend of mine enlisted then got out and had the military pay for his first four years of college then he rejoined the military as an officer and they paid for his medical school. He later retired from the military (at around 45!) with a good pension then went to work at a hospital as an ER doctor. Imagine, college debt free!
posted by MsKim at 9:37 PM on November 10, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by MsKim at 9:37 PM on November 10, 2010 [3 favorites]
Check out the Bureau of Indian Education web page for information on scholarships for American Indians.
She may want to join the military first... Imagine, college debt free!
On the other hand, she might get killed or maimed.
posted by grouse at 10:24 PM on November 10, 2010
She may want to join the military first... Imagine, college debt free!
On the other hand, she might get killed or maimed.
posted by grouse at 10:24 PM on November 10, 2010
She needs to contact the specific Tribal Office to see what their particular requirements are and she needs a copy of her birth certificate. If her father is a tribal member then it will make it much easier.
posted by fshgrl at 10:35 PM on November 10, 2010
posted by fshgrl at 10:35 PM on November 10, 2010
The problem with psychology is that a bachelor's in psychology is almost useless, beyond having the bachelor's itself. Psychology as a profession requires extensive graduate school. This may not be an issue for "Lisa" if she's prepared to go to school for many years, but it's definitely something to keep in mind.
Instead of "psychologist" (lots of schooling, including graduate programs that are either funded and viciously competitive, or unfunded and hideously expensive), how does social worker sound, at least as a short term goal? BSW and MSW programs are significantly easier to get into and maintain good standing in, the work is important and can include the kind of work she's imagining with "nurse" and "psychologist" (direct client care/counseling, clinical decisions, testing, planning, research etc.), her background as a Native American will make her highly desired in certain geographic areas, and there's nothing that says she can't switch to nursing or a PhD in pysch somewhere down the line as a natural career switch.
posted by availablelight at 2:56 AM on November 11, 2010 [5 favorites]
Instead of "psychologist" (lots of schooling, including graduate programs that are either funded and viciously competitive, or unfunded and hideously expensive), how does social worker sound, at least as a short term goal? BSW and MSW programs are significantly easier to get into and maintain good standing in, the work is important and can include the kind of work she's imagining with "nurse" and "psychologist" (direct client care/counseling, clinical decisions, testing, planning, research etc.), her background as a Native American will make her highly desired in certain geographic areas, and there's nothing that says she can't switch to nursing or a PhD in pysch somewhere down the line as a natural career switch.
posted by availablelight at 2:56 AM on November 11, 2010 [5 favorites]
FRCC is reputed to have a good nursing program and it's free to go talk to an advisor.
posted by BoscosMom at 3:04 AM on November 11, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by BoscosMom at 3:04 AM on November 11, 2010 [1 favorite]
The BIA may be helpful, also. There may be other benefits she's eligible for in addition to education.
posted by 6:1 at 3:38 AM on November 11, 2010
posted by 6:1 at 3:38 AM on November 11, 2010
the military really shouldn't be dismissed. If she can enlist with a guaranteed job in the medical field and participates in the GI bill, at the end of one enlistment she'll have marketable skills, college credit, and money for further education. But the guaranteed job is key.
posted by lemniskate at 5:34 AM on November 11, 2010
posted by lemniskate at 5:34 AM on November 11, 2010
Response by poster: One more issue: She seems to have set her sights on a 4-year college. If we bring up community college, I'm a little concerned that she'll take that as a vote of no confidence.
posted by lukemeister at 7:00 AM on November 11, 2010
posted by lukemeister at 7:00 AM on November 11, 2010
If Lisa is set on a 4-year school, you may want to see what schools in your state are considered "regional-serving"--in other words, what are the middle-of-the-road, non-research oriented 4-year schools. They often have a mission focused on serving the local community in a way that's somewhere between community college and Big State University. There may be lower admission standards, the opportunity to enroll with provisional status (meaning she'd have to take remedial math and/or English classes and perhaps a study skills or library research course and prove that she's capable of the work before moving into regular classes), and other support available. Others might not provide as much support but would let her in and give her a chance to prove herself. Either way, this category of 4-year school is often set up for handling first-generation college students better than more prestigious schools.
I'll send you a bit more info via memail.
posted by BlooPen at 7:31 AM on November 11, 2010
I'll send you a bit more info via memail.
posted by BlooPen at 7:31 AM on November 11, 2010
lukemeister: If you think anecdotal evidence may help you in any way, my father got terrible grades in HS, then did 2 years at community college, aced it, went on to the state 4-year university, became a social worker, then went to law school and became a lawyer for our state's social services department.
Same with me - I hated HS so much and my grades blew, I couldn't get into the state four-year school. I took some years off to work, then I saw all my former classmates graduating and getting good jobs, so I went to community college part-time. I was pleasantly surprised at how nice my local CC was, and even though it took me four years (took a year off to have my son), I got my two-year degree. Our state has a really good system for transfers between community college and state school, which I transferred to this semester. I feel amazingly prepared, and also - I HAVE NO DEBT. Grants and tuition waivers covered nearly all my tuition, and I paid the rest out of savings. I would have never done it any other way.
My brother did the same. Now that I think of it, it's kind of a trend around our house. My sister had to really, really work very hard to get herself into a 4-year public nursing school, and she still takes community college courses over the summer to keep her tuition down and get through her semesters a little easier.
posted by kpht at 7:37 AM on November 11, 2010 [1 favorite]
Same with me - I hated HS so much and my grades blew, I couldn't get into the state four-year school. I took some years off to work, then I saw all my former classmates graduating and getting good jobs, so I went to community college part-time. I was pleasantly surprised at how nice my local CC was, and even though it took me four years (took a year off to have my son), I got my two-year degree. Our state has a really good system for transfers between community college and state school, which I transferred to this semester. I feel amazingly prepared, and also - I HAVE NO DEBT. Grants and tuition waivers covered nearly all my tuition, and I paid the rest out of savings. I would have never done it any other way.
My brother did the same. Now that I think of it, it's kind of a trend around our house. My sister had to really, really work very hard to get herself into a 4-year public nursing school, and she still takes community college courses over the summer to keep her tuition down and get through her semesters a little easier.
posted by kpht at 7:37 AM on November 11, 2010 [1 favorite]
Well, perhaps you should sit her down and ask her what she wants out of her college experience. Does she want to be swept up in activities? Does she want to find friends, meet new people from different backgrounds, learn things she hadn't had an opportunity to learn before, find a job...? Or does she perhaps have a plan that says "I want to be in the working world with a bachelor's degree in four years"? (Oddly enough, community college would probably be the best way to accomplish that last goal.)
I've been both a less-than-engaged college applicant and an admissions staffer (both small college and huge state university). This is undoubtedly the toughest part of the admissions process for so many middle-of-the-road seniors, who want to be swept up in the same excitement that their peers with more money and better grades have. And why shouldn't they? The world tells them that this is the way that you go to college: right out of high school, at a big school or a challenging-yet-cozy liberal arts college, where you'll meet the love of your life and find your passion. It just doesn't happen that way.
Which is not a bad thing in the long run -- far, far from it! -- but when you add in their lack of awareness about the real world in general, the come-down can be rough.
So I don't think that sitting her down and being realistic with her has to be a break-the-magic-spell, Come To Jesus kind of intervention, but I think that she'd value a chance to be treated like more of an adult. Let her know that her feelings and needs are valid, but so are the realities, and help her make a good balance.
posted by Madamina at 7:57 AM on November 11, 2010 [2 favorites]
I've been both a less-than-engaged college applicant and an admissions staffer (both small college and huge state university). This is undoubtedly the toughest part of the admissions process for so many middle-of-the-road seniors, who want to be swept up in the same excitement that their peers with more money and better grades have. And why shouldn't they? The world tells them that this is the way that you go to college: right out of high school, at a big school or a challenging-yet-cozy liberal arts college, where you'll meet the love of your life and find your passion. It just doesn't happen that way.
Which is not a bad thing in the long run -- far, far from it! -- but when you add in their lack of awareness about the real world in general, the come-down can be rough.
So I don't think that sitting her down and being realistic with her has to be a break-the-magic-spell, Come To Jesus kind of intervention, but I think that she'd value a chance to be treated like more of an adult. Let her know that her feelings and needs are valid, but so are the realities, and help her make a good balance.
posted by Madamina at 7:57 AM on November 11, 2010 [2 favorites]
Also (god, I'm double-posting all over these days)...
The thing that really struck me from your post was that "she just never lived around anyone who was scholastically minded." My fiance is one of those people, too. He never even took the ACT; he thought he'd eventually go work at the cereal factory like his mom (single mom, substance abuser), and for the first several years after high school he worked the overnight shift at a Handi-Mart.
He's one of the most positive people I know, but there's still a pretty insidious strain of "that's not for me" or "people like me don't do that" running through him. Whether it came from outright discrimination, "tracking" in school or just family and friends trying to be realistic, it will always affect him -- the clothes he wears, music he listens to, things he buys. That perpetuates itself, too: he buys things like computers at Mr. Money [pawn shop] and then wonders why his things always break or are missing something crucial, and gets frustrated with himself for trying. It just never occurred to him to buy something that didn't have problems in the first place.
But he started community college at age 30, and is still poking around (purposefully!) on his bachelor's degree in his off-hours from an IT job. Even that job was completely outside his thought process when he graduated 17 years ago. Today, he's on the phone with someone who will hopefully help him finish out his degree.
Just getting him to sit down and do that, or push past some of the smallest barriers in his way (e.g. "This person isn't very helpful, so I guess I'm screwed..." Well, ask someone else!) can be very difficult at times. He's got a 4.0 and a fantastic work ethic, but somehow he still doesn't have confidence in his abilities.
So when you talk to her, please recognize that she's probably used to people saying no -- and having that be a final answer. Help her realize that she can take advantage of so many hidden possibilities, and that people really, really want to help her. She has so many options. She just needs to get used to being persistent and realizing that she deserves them.
posted by Madamina at 8:23 AM on November 11, 2010 [3 favorites]
The thing that really struck me from your post was that "she just never lived around anyone who was scholastically minded." My fiance is one of those people, too. He never even took the ACT; he thought he'd eventually go work at the cereal factory like his mom (single mom, substance abuser), and for the first several years after high school he worked the overnight shift at a Handi-Mart.
He's one of the most positive people I know, but there's still a pretty insidious strain of "that's not for me" or "people like me don't do that" running through him. Whether it came from outright discrimination, "tracking" in school or just family and friends trying to be realistic, it will always affect him -- the clothes he wears, music he listens to, things he buys. That perpetuates itself, too: he buys things like computers at Mr. Money [pawn shop] and then wonders why his things always break or are missing something crucial, and gets frustrated with himself for trying. It just never occurred to him to buy something that didn't have problems in the first place.
But he started community college at age 30, and is still poking around (purposefully!) on his bachelor's degree in his off-hours from an IT job. Even that job was completely outside his thought process when he graduated 17 years ago. Today, he's on the phone with someone who will hopefully help him finish out his degree.
Just getting him to sit down and do that, or push past some of the smallest barriers in his way (e.g. "This person isn't very helpful, so I guess I'm screwed..." Well, ask someone else!) can be very difficult at times. He's got a 4.0 and a fantastic work ethic, but somehow he still doesn't have confidence in his abilities.
So when you talk to her, please recognize that she's probably used to people saying no -- and having that be a final answer. Help her realize that she can take advantage of so many hidden possibilities, and that people really, really want to help her. She has so many options. She just needs to get used to being persistent and realizing that she deserves them.
posted by Madamina at 8:23 AM on November 11, 2010 [3 favorites]
If we bring up community college, I'm a little concerned that she'll take that as a vote of no confidence.
As a matter of practicality, even the best students will have backup schools. Encourage her to apply to a few community colleges regardless.
Ask her to think about what would happen if she didn't get into any of her first or second choice schools? Would she rather stick out the 4 years going to a school she really didn't like, or go to CC for 2 years, then a first choice school for 2 years? It's very likely, that no matter how bad of a student she is now, there will be some (expensive, private/for profit, and not very good) 4 year school that will accept her. Would she rather gain debt at bad school, or go 2 and 2 with CC and a better school?
I know plenty of good students that did the 2/2 CC and finishing at a University just for the savings of 2 years of higher tuition. These were also students that were motivated, worked with councilors in the CC and University to ensure a degree path that could transfer, etc. Let her know that the bachelors she earns from the University is the exact same, not any less prestigious, no one (except her wallet) knows the difference, etc.
That said, if this student is going to be around friends and family that don't fully support her, don't value education, etc, it might be a better idea to get her out of that environment regardless of the cost. A friend from high school decided to do 2 years at the community college for the savings, and her (emotionally abusive) parents kept her from every really branching out, kept telling her she wasn't good enough, etc. She never got her degree even though she was a B+ student in high school and could have gone to several public universities out of high school.
posted by fontophilic at 8:47 AM on November 11, 2010
As a matter of practicality, even the best students will have backup schools. Encourage her to apply to a few community colleges regardless.
Ask her to think about what would happen if she didn't get into any of her first or second choice schools? Would she rather stick out the 4 years going to a school she really didn't like, or go to CC for 2 years, then a first choice school for 2 years? It's very likely, that no matter how bad of a student she is now, there will be some (expensive, private/for profit, and not very good) 4 year school that will accept her. Would she rather gain debt at bad school, or go 2 and 2 with CC and a better school?
I know plenty of good students that did the 2/2 CC and finishing at a University just for the savings of 2 years of higher tuition. These were also students that were motivated, worked with councilors in the CC and University to ensure a degree path that could transfer, etc. Let her know that the bachelors she earns from the University is the exact same, not any less prestigious, no one (except her wallet) knows the difference, etc.
That said, if this student is going to be around friends and family that don't fully support her, don't value education, etc, it might be a better idea to get her out of that environment regardless of the cost. A friend from high school decided to do 2 years at the community college for the savings, and her (emotionally abusive) parents kept her from every really branching out, kept telling her she wasn't good enough, etc. She never got her degree even though she was a B+ student in high school and could have gone to several public universities out of high school.
posted by fontophilic at 8:47 AM on November 11, 2010
If she's open to the idea of serving, a military scholarship might be a good match. Results of a quick Google -
Info on the Army nursing program.
Info on Air Force scholarships for high school students.
Info on Navy scholarships.
posted by maryr at 9:38 AM on November 11, 2010
Info on the Army nursing program.
Info on Air Force scholarships for high school students.
Info on Navy scholarships.
posted by maryr at 9:38 AM on November 11, 2010
How does she establish Native ancestry? (It's from her father's side, and she has little or no contact with him.)
That's going to vary from tribe to tribe. Some tribes use blood quanta; other tribes have specific genealogical requirements for enrollment. The right people to ask are the people at the tribe(s) in question.
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:52 AM on November 11, 2010
That's going to vary from tribe to tribe. Some tribes use blood quanta; other tribes have specific genealogical requirements for enrollment. The right people to ask are the people at the tribe(s) in question.
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:52 AM on November 11, 2010
I think a 4-year is definitely do-able, depending on her personality and whether she's willing to do the work.
I barely graduated high school with a 2.1 GPA, and only got accepted to 1 of the 5 universities I applied to (mainly on the strength of my SAT scores). Like your friend, I would not have accepted going to community college, which is where most of my friends went and which would have been -- to me -- an extension of high school, which I hated.
I ended up with nearly straight A's in college -- the immersive environment was exactly what I needed to excel, and leaving behind my under-achieving friends was a big plus.
I don't know anything about Denver, but many universities have branch campuses that are easier to get into than the main campus.
Overall, if her goal is a 4-year-university, the key will likely be to apply at many of them and hope for the best.
posted by coolguymichael at 11:14 AM on November 11, 2010 [1 favorite]
I barely graduated high school with a 2.1 GPA, and only got accepted to 1 of the 5 universities I applied to (mainly on the strength of my SAT scores). Like your friend, I would not have accepted going to community college, which is where most of my friends went and which would have been -- to me -- an extension of high school, which I hated.
I ended up with nearly straight A's in college -- the immersive environment was exactly what I needed to excel, and leaving behind my under-achieving friends was a big plus.
I don't know anything about Denver, but many universities have branch campuses that are easier to get into than the main campus.
Overall, if her goal is a 4-year-university, the key will likely be to apply at many of them and hope for the best.
posted by coolguymichael at 11:14 AM on November 11, 2010 [1 favorite]
The daughter of family friends seemed to have a similar set of circumstances. She wants to be a nurse, but had trouble getting into the nursing school at the University of Northern Colroado due to middle-of-the-road grades and lack of self-confidence in an academic environment.
Her solution was to attend Front Range Community College for their nursing program, get her Associate's and certificate, then apply to the University of Northern Colorado's nursing school for their program.
She's completed the FRCC program and has her certificate now, was accepted at UNC/Greeley, and started there this semester, Fall '10. She's much more confident and comfortable in her abilities now, and the program that looked so intimidating 2 years ago she's said is now well within her reach. As a plus, she's got a lot of nursing 'street cred' with her peers since she already has her Practical Nursing certificate.
TL;DR: Talk with Lisa about going to a community college such as FRCC and getting a Practical Nursing certificate & Associate's Degree there. Then transfer to a 4-year RN-BS program.
posted by sbigelow at 9:38 AM on November 12, 2010 [1 favorite]
Her solution was to attend Front Range Community College for their nursing program, get her Associate's and certificate, then apply to the University of Northern Colorado's nursing school for their program.
She's completed the FRCC program and has her certificate now, was accepted at UNC/Greeley, and started there this semester, Fall '10. She's much more confident and comfortable in her abilities now, and the program that looked so intimidating 2 years ago she's said is now well within her reach. As a plus, she's got a lot of nursing 'street cred' with her peers since she already has her Practical Nursing certificate.
TL;DR: Talk with Lisa about going to a community college such as FRCC and getting a Practical Nursing certificate & Associate's Degree there. Then transfer to a 4-year RN-BS program.
posted by sbigelow at 9:38 AM on November 12, 2010 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: sbigelow,
Very interesting ... but isn't that 6 years to become an RN? I'm just concerned about how Lisa can survive that long without a 'real' job.
posted by lukemeister at 1:55 PM on November 12, 2010
Very interesting ... but isn't that 6 years to become an RN? I'm just concerned about how Lisa can survive that long without a 'real' job.
posted by lukemeister at 1:55 PM on November 12, 2010
Yeah, I didn't explain that very well... a couple of items to possibly lend clarity:
MOST of her credits from FRCC transferred to her UNC program. If I understood her correctly, the ones that didn't transfer were obscure general ed type courses not covered under Colorado's guaranteed transfer program; credits for the nursing courses all transferred. So she'll wind up taking a total of 9 - 10 semesters to earn the RN-BS: 4 at FRCC, and the rest at UNC.
She's also able to work part-time in a Dr's office while she's at UNC, since she has the Practical Nursing certificate. Pure supposition on my part: if her class load is 12 - 15 credit hours per semester, she's probably able to work 15-20 hours a week, depending on the difficulty of the classes.
In Lisa's case, going through the 2 year program to get the Practical Nursing certificate and then being employable as a nurse while working towards the RN-BS could give her an extra boost of confidence in her choice to be a nurse. And help put decent money in her pocket working a "real job".
Hope this helps!
posted by sbigelow at 3:16 PM on November 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
MOST of her credits from FRCC transferred to her UNC program. If I understood her correctly, the ones that didn't transfer were obscure general ed type courses not covered under Colorado's guaranteed transfer program; credits for the nursing courses all transferred. So she'll wind up taking a total of 9 - 10 semesters to earn the RN-BS: 4 at FRCC, and the rest at UNC.
She's also able to work part-time in a Dr's office while she's at UNC, since she has the Practical Nursing certificate. Pure supposition on my part: if her class load is 12 - 15 credit hours per semester, she's probably able to work 15-20 hours a week, depending on the difficulty of the classes.
In Lisa's case, going through the 2 year program to get the Practical Nursing certificate and then being employable as a nurse while working towards the RN-BS could give her an extra boost of confidence in her choice to be a nurse. And help put decent money in her pocket working a "real job".
Hope this helps!
posted by sbigelow at 3:16 PM on November 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
You can also take the NCLEX (which is what makes you an RN) with just an Associate of Nursing Science degree. She may want a bachelors to get into a more demanding nursing job (OR/ER nurse, for example) or a leadership/management role, but many other fields are going to be fine with an Associates. If she's more interested in a GP/Pediatrics office, an Associates and RN is sufficient.
She can get that Associates and take the NCLEX in 2 years (two, pretty demanding years). 2 years and 2 summer semesters might be more reasonable. Clinical rotations will take up a lot of your time, and studying for the NCLEX will take lots of time too. I know my mom felt a lot more confident taking a Kaplan NCLEX course after finishing her Associates.
Anyways, it is common to be hired with an associates straight out of your program while studying to take the NCLEX. She could even find a nursing assistant job while she's an associate nursing student if she's got the time for it.
It may also be the case that after 2 years of school, she'd be ready for 2 more and wants to go on to her bachelors, thats great too. I rather think that nursing assistant certificates are a bit of a waste of time and money, especially for someone interested in a 4 year university degree. It does not make you much more qualified than a second year associate nursing student. It might be right for someone that wants practical experience first, but it is not a common pathway to a BSN.
posted by fontophilic at 4:00 PM on November 15, 2010
She can get that Associates and take the NCLEX in 2 years (two, pretty demanding years). 2 years and 2 summer semesters might be more reasonable. Clinical rotations will take up a lot of your time, and studying for the NCLEX will take lots of time too. I know my mom felt a lot more confident taking a Kaplan NCLEX course after finishing her Associates.
Anyways, it is common to be hired with an associates straight out of your program while studying to take the NCLEX. She could even find a nursing assistant job while she's an associate nursing student if she's got the time for it.
It may also be the case that after 2 years of school, she'd be ready for 2 more and wants to go on to her bachelors, thats great too. I rather think that nursing assistant certificates are a bit of a waste of time and money, especially for someone interested in a 4 year university degree. It does not make you much more qualified than a second year associate nursing student. It might be right for someone that wants practical experience first, but it is not a common pathway to a BSN.
posted by fontophilic at 4:00 PM on November 15, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Sidhedevil at 7:32 PM on November 10, 2010 [1 favorite]