Pacifier Pacifier Portends Peaceless Prostration
October 17, 2010 6:35 PM Subscribe
Our 4.5 month old wakes 5-8 times in the night loudly requesting that his pacifier be re-inserted. I'm tired. Help me.
He sleeps is a bassinet next to my side of the bed, so this has been tolerable, but we're hearing that if your baby isn't sleep trained by six months it gets a lot harder to do. (1)
We have trained him to go down with minimal effort for naps and at night, but when he wakes crying for his pacifier he won't calm down. (Though we don't let him cry for more than abut 5 minutes.) He cannot re-insert his pacifier on his own, but I have heard that he may be able to by 6 months. (2)
Additionally, he wakes to breastfeed 2 times. I was every so committed to never giving my child a drop of formula, but I've heard that a bottle of formula at night will help keep him full through the night. (3)
(1) Is this true?
(2) Is this true?
(3) Is this true?
I have talked with my pediatrician about this and she offered the solution of putting him in the crib in his own room, doing a night-time routine, turning off the monitors, and letting him cry whenever he wakes up until he falls back asleep. She swears this will work in 3 days. I kind of believe her, but it also seems like a shit thing to do when the baby has been treated to gingerly and sweetly his entire life.
I feel like my options are to either put up with it until he can put his own pacifier back in or wean him from the pacifier. (But it makes him SO, SO much easier during the day!!!)
What to do?
He sleeps is a bassinet next to my side of the bed, so this has been tolerable, but we're hearing that if your baby isn't sleep trained by six months it gets a lot harder to do. (1)
We have trained him to go down with minimal effort for naps and at night, but when he wakes crying for his pacifier he won't calm down. (Though we don't let him cry for more than abut 5 minutes.) He cannot re-insert his pacifier on his own, but I have heard that he may be able to by 6 months. (2)
Additionally, he wakes to breastfeed 2 times. I was every so committed to never giving my child a drop of formula, but I've heard that a bottle of formula at night will help keep him full through the night. (3)
(1) Is this true?
(2) Is this true?
(3) Is this true?
I have talked with my pediatrician about this and she offered the solution of putting him in the crib in his own room, doing a night-time routine, turning off the monitors, and letting him cry whenever he wakes up until he falls back asleep. She swears this will work in 3 days. I kind of believe her, but it also seems like a shit thing to do when the baby has been treated to gingerly and sweetly his entire life.
I feel like my options are to either put up with it until he can put his own pacifier back in or wean him from the pacifier. (But it makes him SO, SO much easier during the day!!!)
What to do?
Best answer: You'll get endless and contradictory advice from any group of parents you ask. For fun (or not so much fun), try asking this on youbemom.com....
I co-slept and my db used me as a pacifier and, well, we didn't go through any of this. No sleepless nights at all. When he awoke, he'd snuggle up and all would be good again in minutes. On the other hand, he's a bigger kid now and still likes to have one of us sit in a chair in his room until he falls asleep. So, our story is just one data point -- there are many pluses and minuses to whatever you choose to do!
Even though I was also anti-formula, I quickly gave into it as an option to let my husband hang out at night with the baby while I got some sweet, precious alone time and sleep. It also made it easier for me to get away during the day as he got older, because I could never pump that much and so didn't build up a huge supply for when I was gone.
Good luck to you!
posted by lgandme0717 at 6:43 PM on October 17, 2010
I co-slept and my db used me as a pacifier and, well, we didn't go through any of this. No sleepless nights at all. When he awoke, he'd snuggle up and all would be good again in minutes. On the other hand, he's a bigger kid now and still likes to have one of us sit in a chair in his room until he falls asleep. So, our story is just one data point -- there are many pluses and minuses to whatever you choose to do!
Even though I was also anti-formula, I quickly gave into it as an option to let my husband hang out at night with the baby while I got some sweet, precious alone time and sleep. It also made it easier for me to get away during the day as he got older, because I could never pump that much and so didn't build up a huge supply for when I was gone.
Good luck to you!
posted by lgandme0717 at 6:43 PM on October 17, 2010
1) maybe
2) probably
3) maybe
On #1, we actually didn't START sleep-training until six months, except for trying to consolidate sleep at night and making night wakings boring and doing fun things in the daytime. I suppose "sleep when it's dark" is technically sleep training, but we didn't start with trying to make him soothe himself back to sleep and so forth until six months. I think it went fine, but then I only have one and I have no basis for comparison. :)
We did "extinction," where you let them cry a couple minutes, then go in and soothe and reinsert pacifier and whatnot, but without picking them up. Then you wait five minutes, and do it again. Then ten minutes. Then twenty minutes. And so on. (This, of course, works better if they're in their own room; in a bedside bassinet, which we had until 4 months, this would be MADDENING.) We never got past half an hour, and it only took a week to have him soothing himself to sleep/back to sleep 95% of the time. (He was still having a night feeding or two until 10 months, as I recall.) It wasn't my favorite week ever, but "plain" cry-it-out made me too paranoid something was really wrong. I needed to be able to go in and check on him.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:54 PM on October 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
2) probably
3) maybe
On #1, we actually didn't START sleep-training until six months, except for trying to consolidate sleep at night and making night wakings boring and doing fun things in the daytime. I suppose "sleep when it's dark" is technically sleep training, but we didn't start with trying to make him soothe himself back to sleep and so forth until six months. I think it went fine, but then I only have one and I have no basis for comparison. :)
We did "extinction," where you let them cry a couple minutes, then go in and soothe and reinsert pacifier and whatnot, but without picking them up. Then you wait five minutes, and do it again. Then ten minutes. Then twenty minutes. And so on. (This, of course, works better if they're in their own room; in a bedside bassinet, which we had until 4 months, this would be MADDENING.) We never got past half an hour, and it only took a week to have him soothing himself to sleep/back to sleep 95% of the time. (He was still having a night feeding or two until 10 months, as I recall.) It wasn't my favorite week ever, but "plain" cry-it-out made me too paranoid something was really wrong. I needed to be able to go in and check on him.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:54 PM on October 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
1) Depends on the kid. It wasn't the case for my kids, who sleep trained around 1 year with no problems.
2) Ditto.
3) Not proven.
As for the ped's suggestion, most sleep specialists (even Ferber, Weissbluth) don't recommend extinction burst training before six months. It's basically contrary to the kid's normal development. Waking frequently is still normal at this age.
A happy compromise might be to go cold turkey with the pacifier, but keep him nearby in the bassinet for the few nights it takes to get him through it. You get the benefit of a kid who has made some steps to self-soothing (and frankly he probably can't wake more frequently than he already is), but have done it in a way that is supportive and loving. You can also try to draw out the amount of time it takes you to respond--give him a little longer to see what he can do on his own--but in my experience when the kid knows you're right there, it's tough.
I recommend Jodi Mindell's book, Sleeping Through the Night. It was a good middle ground between cry-it-out and do-nothing.
posted by cocoagirl at 6:56 PM on October 17, 2010
2) Ditto.
3) Not proven.
As for the ped's suggestion, most sleep specialists (even Ferber, Weissbluth) don't recommend extinction burst training before six months. It's basically contrary to the kid's normal development. Waking frequently is still normal at this age.
A happy compromise might be to go cold turkey with the pacifier, but keep him nearby in the bassinet for the few nights it takes to get him through it. You get the benefit of a kid who has made some steps to self-soothing (and frankly he probably can't wake more frequently than he already is), but have done it in a way that is supportive and loving. You can also try to draw out the amount of time it takes you to respond--give him a little longer to see what he can do on his own--but in my experience when the kid knows you're right there, it's tough.
I recommend Jodi Mindell's book, Sleeping Through the Night. It was a good middle ground between cry-it-out and do-nothing.
posted by cocoagirl at 6:56 PM on October 17, 2010
Best answer: Oh, BTW, a simple solution -- a different-shaped pacifier may be easier for baby to keep in at night. Mine could keep a nuk orthodontic in almost all night long before he could keep any other shapes in and long before he could reinsert his own pacifier. He loved the sensation of the soothies, but couldn't keep them in and would get furious.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:57 PM on October 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:57 PM on October 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
1. Maybe, but I waited to sleep-train him until 10 months, when it just felt like the right time to do it. Before then, we made some attempts, but nothing but cry-it-out actually worked and that just wasn't going to happen at 6 months, or even 8 in our case - he was just too young. It was a long week or so until he could soothe himself to sleep, but the positive impact in our daily lives was worth it. He was happier and more well rested (we'd been cosleeping and he'd wake to feed at least 3 times per night), and although he didn't sleep through the night until about a year (and I'd still feed him in a rocking chair), he did sleep longer and he woke less and less. Oh, and he had a weird sleep issue at around 15 months that required another round of crying it out. Another week, and he was back to normal. It does seem like a shitty thing to do to just let him cry himself to sleep, but it works and they don't remember it. It sure beats going through a red light in a zombie-like haze of sleeplessness (this happened to me. thank god I had an adult passenger to scream at me). It's not something to do at 4.5 months in my opinion, though. He will still need food, he's hungry, and that's just really, really young.
2. (no advice, my son somehow never really took to a pacifier at night)
3. I don't think there's a huge amount of conclusive evidence. There's anecdotal evidence and wive's tails and stuff people will tell you that says formula is more filling, but breastfeeding is as easy as rolling over and feeding him, right? Bottle feeding him means getting up out of bed and preparing a meal. It's your call, but it's just one of those things you're gonna have to slog through either way until he's physically mature enough to sleep through the night. It seems like forever, but I assure you the time will pass really quickly. Not quickly enough, but quickly.
posted by kpht at 6:59 PM on October 17, 2010
2. (no advice, my son somehow never really took to a pacifier at night)
3. I don't think there's a huge amount of conclusive evidence. There's anecdotal evidence and wive's tails and stuff people will tell you that says formula is more filling, but breastfeeding is as easy as rolling over and feeding him, right? Bottle feeding him means getting up out of bed and preparing a meal. It's your call, but it's just one of those things you're gonna have to slog through either way until he's physically mature enough to sleep through the night. It seems like forever, but I assure you the time will pass really quickly. Not quickly enough, but quickly.
posted by kpht at 6:59 PM on October 17, 2010
Best answer: Your dentist will kill me, but if baby selfsoothes with a thumb instead of a paccy...
As to the formula, it won't hurt your baby if you want to try that. There is something to it. I breastfed but if I needed to supplement with formula once in awhile, it was no big deal, really.
I do know that crying-it-out is back in fashion but I personally do not believe in it. Having said that, might be a good idea to start training baby to sleep in a separate room if you are not planning to do the family bed thing.
If your baby goes down easily for nighttime and naps, he IS appropriately sleep trained. He simply needs to teach himself how to selfsoothe once he awakens.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 7:00 PM on October 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
As to the formula, it won't hurt your baby if you want to try that. There is something to it. I breastfed but if I needed to supplement with formula once in awhile, it was no big deal, really.
I do know that crying-it-out is back in fashion but I personally do not believe in it. Having said that, might be a good idea to start training baby to sleep in a separate room if you are not planning to do the family bed thing.
If your baby goes down easily for nighttime and naps, he IS appropriately sleep trained. He simply needs to teach himself how to selfsoothe once he awakens.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 7:00 PM on October 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
Best answer: We were in your shoes 8 months ago. The pacifier spitting out routine was repeated about every 90 minutes, which meant no one slept for more than 90 minutes at a time for months . . . We ended up doing what your doctor suggested when the baby was 5.5 months old, and one day took away the pacifier cold turkey and put him to bed, then let him cry in intervals of 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13 minutes, checking on him in between. The good: no more pacifier, started sleeping through the night, was FAR better rested, slept much much better in his own room (though I'm not sure if this is true for all babies; it was for ours--he woke up at the slightest creak in the floorboards when we had him sleeping in our room and seemed to have a sixth sense for when we came to bed, even though we tiptoed in slow motion every single time). The bad: the first couple of days were awful (he cried a fair amount), though nothing in his demeanor suggested that he thought what we were doing was a shit thing to do. He cried when put to bed, but otherwise remained his happy, energetic, affectionate self, and still does. We were SHOCKED that as much as he had cried every night when his pacifier fell out, once we took it away he didn't seem to miss it at all, within a day or two it was like he had never had it.
I would suggest you read Ferber's book (and I mean get a copy and actually read it through cover to cover; don't rely on what people say about it or on summaries on the internet. People say a lot of nonsense about that book, but you might find some ideas in it helpful. He has a lot to say about feeding and sleep patterns, too, which might help with your night nursing and formula question.)
Finally, while the method above worked great for us, I do think that what works depends on your child's temperament (and on yours too). Good luck and hope you all get the rest you need!
posted by agent99 at 7:01 PM on October 17, 2010 [2 favorites]
I would suggest you read Ferber's book (and I mean get a copy and actually read it through cover to cover; don't rely on what people say about it or on summaries on the internet. People say a lot of nonsense about that book, but you might find some ideas in it helpful. He has a lot to say about feeding and sleep patterns, too, which might help with your night nursing and formula question.)
Finally, while the method above worked great for us, I do think that what works depends on your child's temperament (and on yours too). Good luck and hope you all get the rest you need!
posted by agent99 at 7:01 PM on October 17, 2010 [2 favorites]
4.5 month? Yeah that's pretty much for par. Around 6 months the kid was coordinated enough to put in the pacifier himself. Around 10 months we did the control-crying/sleep-train thing which took about 2 nights and then he slept all night. (and slept better).
We used only formula, no choice in that compartment, but had streamlined the production perfectly. (Thermos with pre-boiled water, bottle with cool boiled water, perfect mix of both to get the right temperature directly - i could do it with my eyes closed, and frequently did).
Being Japan, one of the first thing the kid ate was rice, as in rice-porridge. This seemed to fill up the kid quite well in the evening, but that too is most likely just more anecdotal evidence.
posted by lundman at 7:05 PM on October 17, 2010
We used only formula, no choice in that compartment, but had streamlined the production perfectly. (Thermos with pre-boiled water, bottle with cool boiled water, perfect mix of both to get the right temperature directly - i could do it with my eyes closed, and frequently did).
Being Japan, one of the first thing the kid ate was rice, as in rice-porridge. This seemed to fill up the kid quite well in the evening, but that too is most likely just more anecdotal evidence.
posted by lundman at 7:05 PM on October 17, 2010
Best answer: Our daughter doesn't like sleeping without a pacifier either. If she loses it and couldn't find it she would cry until we gave it back to her. We finally wound up putting a dozen pacifiers scattered around her crib at night so if she loses it she can find another one easily and put it back in. I realize you're saying your son can't insert it himself and I wonder if you can help him practice that during the day so he can learn to do it himself. If you stick it in his hand can he reinsert it? Can you let him play with it more during the day so he gets more adept with it?
We did do sleep training with our daughter and it worked wonderfully. We waited until she was 11 months old and while we didn't need to wait that long I might be worried 4.5 months is early.
Good luck with your son!
posted by onlyconnect at 7:08 PM on October 17, 2010
We did do sleep training with our daughter and it worked wonderfully. We waited until she was 11 months old and while we didn't need to wait that long I might be worried 4.5 months is early.
Good luck with your son!
posted by onlyconnect at 7:08 PM on October 17, 2010
I can't believe I already forgot about this, but in addition to the pacifier spitting out problem, we also had the swaddling problem at that age: he couldn't sleep without his swaddle, but he also broke out of it every hour and a half, necessitating a re-swaddle and pacifier re-insertion, then in 90 minutes another wakeup, another re-swaddle . . . It was awful. Anyway, the point is we took away pacifier and swaddle and rocking back to sleep all at once, and it was fine: he learned to sleep even better without those things.
posted by agent99 at 7:11 PM on October 17, 2010
posted by agent99 at 7:11 PM on October 17, 2010
There are as many opinions as there are babies in this world - here's mine:
1) Yes. I don't know why, but it seems like that is the case. Lots of people recommend starting sleep training at 4 months.
2) Yes and No. Your baby may be able to, but will he be able to find it to put it in? Will he become so conditioned to YOU doing it that he'll still cry out for you?
3) Yes, but only because it takes longer to digest. My kids are/were formula fed due to severe protein allergies - my son is now a week shy of 5 months, formula fed and I get 6 hours overnight.
With my older child, we were suffering like you are. She used the Nattursutten rubber ones and I let her keep one particular one too long and it got a specific shape/smell/taste to it and she WOULD NOT take a new one. The old one started to become unsafe so we just sucked it up and took it away. Ugh. We had two nights of hell where we just let her cry it out, but then everything was fine. It was like her paci never existed in the first place. She was about 7 months old or so.
My son won't take a paci and doesn't even suck his fingers or thumb. I think it's because he has an extremely high palate and had a tongue tie - taking the bottle is very hard for him so I think he's just not all that interested in sucking.
I hope you find a solution that works for you. It may be more miserable short term to get to the longer term relief. A well rested momma is a happy momma.
posted by PorcineWithMe at 7:16 PM on October 17, 2010
1) Yes. I don't know why, but it seems like that is the case. Lots of people recommend starting sleep training at 4 months.
2) Yes and No. Your baby may be able to, but will he be able to find it to put it in? Will he become so conditioned to YOU doing it that he'll still cry out for you?
3) Yes, but only because it takes longer to digest. My kids are/were formula fed due to severe protein allergies - my son is now a week shy of 5 months, formula fed and I get 6 hours overnight.
With my older child, we were suffering like you are. She used the Nattursutten rubber ones and I let her keep one particular one too long and it got a specific shape/smell/taste to it and she WOULD NOT take a new one. The old one started to become unsafe so we just sucked it up and took it away. Ugh. We had two nights of hell where we just let her cry it out, but then everything was fine. It was like her paci never existed in the first place. She was about 7 months old or so.
My son won't take a paci and doesn't even suck his fingers or thumb. I think it's because he has an extremely high palate and had a tongue tie - taking the bottle is very hard for him so I think he's just not all that interested in sucking.
I hope you find a solution that works for you. It may be more miserable short term to get to the longer term relief. A well rested momma is a happy momma.
posted by PorcineWithMe at 7:16 PM on October 17, 2010
it also seems like a shit thing to do when the baby has been treated to gingerly and sweetly his entire life.
I'm not saying you should or shouldn't "cry it out", but this isn't the reason to do it. Your child will experience things much shitter in life that you won't be able to help them with, and that's a-okay.
Life has pain and problems, sometimes. Learning to cope and deal with that - at any age - is not necessarily a bad thing.
Whatever you choose to do, don't feel guilty. You're doing fine. :)
posted by smoke at 7:19 PM on October 17, 2010
I'm not saying you should or shouldn't "cry it out", but this isn't the reason to do it. Your child will experience things much shitter in life that you won't be able to help them with, and that's a-okay.
Life has pain and problems, sometimes. Learning to cope and deal with that - at any age - is not necessarily a bad thing.
Whatever you choose to do, don't feel guilty. You're doing fine. :)
posted by smoke at 7:19 PM on October 17, 2010
Best answer: I have talked with my pediatrician about this and she offered the solution of putting him in the crib in his own room, doing a night-time routine, turning off the monitors, and letting him cry whenever he wakes up until he falls back asleep. She swears this will work in 3 days.
We did this with our twins (except we kept the monitor) to cut their 3AM feeding when they were 5 months old and again a month later to cut their 6AM feeding. It only took 2 nights to work that first time, and the second time only took 1 night. They were sleeping 12 hours a night at 6 months old. Every parent should experience this joy. FYI, they were formula fed from the start, with some breast milk every now and then.
posted by puritycontrol at 7:20 PM on October 17, 2010 [2 favorites]
We did this with our twins (except we kept the monitor) to cut their 3AM feeding when they were 5 months old and again a month later to cut their 6AM feeding. It only took 2 nights to work that first time, and the second time only took 1 night. They were sleeping 12 hours a night at 6 months old. Every parent should experience this joy. FYI, they were formula fed from the start, with some breast milk every now and then.
posted by puritycontrol at 7:20 PM on October 17, 2010 [2 favorites]
1) No idea.
2) Pretty much.
3) Stomach (the organ) size is a key dictator of whether the kid gets through the night. Around six months it gets big enough to hold enough food to last the evening, stick to breastfeeding and you'll see the night feedings stop around six months.
Additionally, things got a lot better for us when the kid was out of our room, and we did that after two months (actually we did it right from the start but the nurse shamed us into moving the crib into our room on the first visit).
posted by furtive at 7:27 PM on October 17, 2010
2) Pretty much.
3) Stomach (the organ) size is a key dictator of whether the kid gets through the night. Around six months it gets big enough to hold enough food to last the evening, stick to breastfeeding and you'll see the night feedings stop around six months.
Additionally, things got a lot better for us when the kid was out of our room, and we did that after two months (actually we did it right from the start but the nurse shamed us into moving the crib into our room on the first visit).
posted by furtive at 7:27 PM on October 17, 2010
My only concern with what you are doing is that it will absolutely make your job harder later when you do try to ween the baby from the pacifier. I've had friends who did things to make their lives easier, just to suffer more in the long run. I am not a fan of letting a baby cry it through, but there are times where it was the best thing to do. Babies also learn very quickly and if/when he learns that a little crying will make you jump so he can get his way, he will cry for every little thing that he wants.. and that behavior will continue for a long time. You want to make the baby as comfortable and happy as possible, but you also want to let the baby know who the boss is from a very early stage.. because if you don't, he will, then the battle is lost.
Just my humble opinion based on my own kid and seeing how friends and family dealt with their kids. And if you think I'm being harsh, the truth is my kid, now 16 months, is a happy baby who tries to push boundaries, but knows its losing battle. He'll yell when he doesn't get his way sometimes, then he turns, laughs and moves on to the next thing.
posted by MattScully at 7:38 PM on October 17, 2010 [2 favorites]
Just my humble opinion based on my own kid and seeing how friends and family dealt with their kids. And if you think I'm being harsh, the truth is my kid, now 16 months, is a happy baby who tries to push boundaries, but knows its losing battle. He'll yell when he doesn't get his way sometimes, then he turns, laughs and moves on to the next thing.
posted by MattScully at 7:38 PM on October 17, 2010 [2 favorites]
Best answer: she offered the solution of putting him in the crib in his own room, doing a night-time routine, turning off the monitors, and letting him cry whenever he wakes up until he falls back asleep. She swears this will work in 3 days. I kind of believe her, but it also seems like a shit thing to do when the baby has been treated to gingerly and sweetly his entire life.
We had the same problem. While I would be inclined to think that 4.5 months is a bit too young for this method, definitely give it a go if the problem persists, because this really, really worked for us. It causes you more pain than your child. Remember, your child is in a safe place, nothing is wrong, no actual harm is going to happen to them from them crying. If crying hurt babies, the world would be a very weird place.
posted by Jimbob at 7:40 PM on October 17, 2010
We had the same problem. While I would be inclined to think that 4.5 months is a bit too young for this method, definitely give it a go if the problem persists, because this really, really worked for us. It causes you more pain than your child. Remember, your child is in a safe place, nothing is wrong, no actual harm is going to happen to them from them crying. If crying hurt babies, the world would be a very weird place.
posted by Jimbob at 7:40 PM on October 17, 2010
I can only answer this for my daughter and my experiences with other parents/friends, but..
1) Yes, from what I've heard, but mine was on a routine from about 6-8 weeks. In her own room.
2) Yes, our daughter could do this at around the 6 month stage though she's now a year old and occasionally loses it, not every night though.
3) Heard this and I think there's a little truth to it but not as much as claimed. My daughter has had a great sleep schedule over time but in the, say, 3-9 month bracket, she definitely wanted feeding twice during the night (but otherwise slept well and got back to sleep almost instantly). Only after 11 months or so has it gone to none but since I'm awake all night anyway, we've not encouraged her to give it up before she figured it out.
I think your pediatrician is on the money though you need a limit to how much crying warrants attention. We went with about 1-2 minutes which is pretty short but after a while we started to recognize different types of cry.. those we knew would pass quickly and those we had to respond to immediately. So will you. I don't advise turning the monitors off entirely though, ensure you have one that detects baby's movements and raises the alarm if he/she stops breathing, this is a dangerous time SID wise.
posted by wackybrit at 7:40 PM on October 17, 2010
1) Yes, from what I've heard, but mine was on a routine from about 6-8 weeks. In her own room.
2) Yes, our daughter could do this at around the 6 month stage though she's now a year old and occasionally loses it, not every night though.
3) Heard this and I think there's a little truth to it but not as much as claimed. My daughter has had a great sleep schedule over time but in the, say, 3-9 month bracket, she definitely wanted feeding twice during the night (but otherwise slept well and got back to sleep almost instantly). Only after 11 months or so has it gone to none but since I'm awake all night anyway, we've not encouraged her to give it up before she figured it out.
I think your pediatrician is on the money though you need a limit to how much crying warrants attention. We went with about 1-2 minutes which is pretty short but after a while we started to recognize different types of cry.. those we knew would pass quickly and those we had to respond to immediately. So will you. I don't advise turning the monitors off entirely though, ensure you have one that detects baby's movements and raises the alarm if he/she stops breathing, this is a dangerous time SID wise.
posted by wackybrit at 7:40 PM on October 17, 2010
"slept much much better in his own room (though I'm not sure if this is true for all babies; it was for ours"
Quoted for truth ... we had ours in the bedside bassinet and I loved it ... until at about four months he made TOTALLY CLEAR that we were horrible, noisy, rhinoceri of parents and he WOULD NOT SLEEP if we were making all that terrible breathing noise. He woke up much less in the night once we moved him to his own room. I had a friend whose baby basically refused to sleep if there was anyone in the room starting at a couple weeks old!
Other babies, of course, sleep fine when they're rooming in, or even sleep better rooming in, and strenuously object to being in a room alone.
But it's worth experimenting with.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:54 PM on October 17, 2010
Quoted for truth ... we had ours in the bedside bassinet and I loved it ... until at about four months he made TOTALLY CLEAR that we were horrible, noisy, rhinoceri of parents and he WOULD NOT SLEEP if we were making all that terrible breathing noise. He woke up much less in the night once we moved him to his own room. I had a friend whose baby basically refused to sleep if there was anyone in the room starting at a couple weeks old!
Other babies, of course, sleep fine when they're rooming in, or even sleep better rooming in, and strenuously object to being in a room alone.
But it's worth experimenting with.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:54 PM on October 17, 2010
#1 Absolutely best to have your child sleeping through the night ASAP, for your sanity. It will only gethard ere.
#2 We never went through spitting out the pacifier and crying, but then both of our boys slept through the night by around 12 weeks. Please do not hate me.
#3 Here's what worked for us. From the very first feeding, we had a routine and stuck to it. Feedings during the night were done with low lighting and utter quiet and daytime feedings were surrounded by the normal hustle-bustle of family life.
With our first son, we had to go to exclusively formula early on (low birth weight, wouldn't nurse). Our youngest had breast and bottle--he was a big baby with a very healthy appetite and we supplemented with formula.
What we found with both boys is that they would basically have a double feeding before they went to sleep at night, and then go a solid 8 hours before waking to be fed again. We never let them "cry it out" and they just seemed to get into this schedule naturally. We never had sleep issues with either boy.
Your baby may just be waking up hungry and spitting out the pacifier because he wants to be fed. If you can possibly up your milk output, a bigger feeding at night may work with breast-feeding as well. But I did find that formula worked for us.
posted by misha at 8:10 PM on October 17, 2010
#2 We never went through spitting out the pacifier and crying, but then both of our boys slept through the night by around 12 weeks. Please do not hate me.
#3 Here's what worked for us. From the very first feeding, we had a routine and stuck to it. Feedings during the night were done with low lighting and utter quiet and daytime feedings were surrounded by the normal hustle-bustle of family life.
With our first son, we had to go to exclusively formula early on (low birth weight, wouldn't nurse). Our youngest had breast and bottle--he was a big baby with a very healthy appetite and we supplemented with formula.
What we found with both boys is that they would basically have a double feeding before they went to sleep at night, and then go a solid 8 hours before waking to be fed again. We never let them "cry it out" and they just seemed to get into this schedule naturally. We never had sleep issues with either boy.
Your baby may just be waking up hungry and spitting out the pacifier because he wants to be fed. If you can possibly up your milk output, a bigger feeding at night may work with breast-feeding as well. But I did find that formula worked for us.
posted by misha at 8:10 PM on October 17, 2010
Oh, and your baby needs to be in his own room! Really, it is best for both of you. He will sleep better and so will you. You can always have the bay monitor right by your bed so you won't worry.
posted by misha at 8:13 PM on October 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by misha at 8:13 PM on October 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
Ugh typos! Stupid iPad. Why is there not an app to read my mind and type what I think?
posted by misha at 8:16 PM on October 17, 2010
posted by misha at 8:16 PM on October 17, 2010
Best answer: Heh. See first comment regarding contradictory advice.
1. We didn't start letting my (now 25mo) cry much at all until she was 8 or so months. Whether she could have handled it or not at a younger age was immaterial - my husband and I both couldn't have. We sort of did a combo sleep training + letting her find her own way thing. Now, she still sleeps 12 hours o/n and a 90-120 min nap during the day. Point being, we did it later than 6mo and she was fine.
2. don't know
3. As far as I know there's no evidence at all that formula keeps the kid fuller and more likely to sleep, but it can mean *you* get more sleep, bc your partner can deal with the baby.
extra: kid slept in a bassinet beside our bed until 6mo. It was best for both of us. She slept better and so did we. I hate the monitor and would lie there listening to it.
posted by gaspode at 8:21 PM on October 17, 2010
1. We didn't start letting my (now 25mo) cry much at all until she was 8 or so months. Whether she could have handled it or not at a younger age was immaterial - my husband and I both couldn't have. We sort of did a combo sleep training + letting her find her own way thing. Now, she still sleeps 12 hours o/n and a 90-120 min nap during the day. Point being, we did it later than 6mo and she was fine.
2. don't know
3. As far as I know there's no evidence at all that formula keeps the kid fuller and more likely to sleep, but it can mean *you* get more sleep, bc your partner can deal with the baby.
extra: kid slept in a bassinet beside our bed until 6mo. It was best for both of us. She slept better and so did we. I hate the monitor and would lie there listening to it.
posted by gaspode at 8:21 PM on October 17, 2010
"It causes you more pain than your child. Remember, your child is in a safe place, nothing is wrong, no actual harm is going to happen to them from them crying."
A few years ago I was reading through a now-dead site called "truemomconfessions.com" and came across
One afternoon my six week old baby was very fussy when I put her down for a nap. I picked her up and nursed her again. She was still very fussy. I decided to put her back to bed and let her cry it out I guess. She cried pretty loud and I just turned up the t.v. louder. After about 15 minutes or so, she stopped crying. I assumed she went to sleep and I was happy. About two hours later I went to check on her and she had died of SIDS. I have never forgiven myself and certainly expect that people would agree that I was a terrible mother. That happened 27 years ago and I still hate myself for it.
which sums it up pretty neatly, I feel. There are risks to letting babies scream untended to. Never mind that it's just not a reasonable thing to do. It is bad 'parenting' and I would've, after snarking, not returned to a doctor who'd offered such dreadful advice. (And why is a physician trying to advise on parenting, anyway?) The kid is not "meant to" have his own room; solitary infant sleeping (just sleeping, never mind screaming) is associated with a higher risk of SIDS. Some of the "information" you are getting here is pretty bad. Viz http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8680184
Will giving formula or solids at night help baby to sleep better? The idea that solids will help your baby sleep is an old wives' tale that has been disproven by medical studies. Feeding your baby solids or formula in an attempt to make baby sleep longer is not a good idea for several reasons... There are health advantages to exclusive breastfeeding, so stay the course on that one. (Also useful: Another myth... Rice cereal makes babies sleep)
I do not understand why people use pacifiers -- and I don't mean that as, "Boy they're stupid" snark; I mean, I do not understand why, what's going on during the day that you can't stuff him in a sling and jam in a breast? Or turn on a mechanical swing while you're getting dinner on, or whatever; I had three younger siblings and never saw one in use so do not understand how the "Ah ha! I need a pacifier" idea comes about. And, and this is one big thing I wonder every time I see the many variations on your question, what did you expect to happen when you bought the pacifiers? Oh, boy, a hassle to keep putting back in. Oh dear, how do we stop using it? But I would wean, yes, gently. Let him find his thumb if he needs it, make with the milk, not a big deal.
IF you don't wean him from the pacifier, research indicates that if not pushed children discard them by themselves quite easily between 2 and 4. If pushed (this goes for thumbs as well) that guarantee is off and they keep 'em longer and fight giving them up. Statistically speaking, anyway.
Here is one anthropologist's perspective on tots and sleeping through the night which you may find interesting. I also do not understand the fetish for an uninterrupted night. Yes, every hour to put a pacifier in, I can see how that would be objectionable. But to leave them to sob until they shut up all night every night! Good lord. My daughter woke plenty, still wakes, and, most frustratingly, woke for two-hour intervals every so often between 1 and 2. At first I kicked about this, and sat there very sullen and doing as little as possible. After a few nights of this nonsense on my part I realised that nothing I did was going to alter the course of our sleep, but we didn't have to fight during it. I poured myself a little nip of Bailey's, I got a flashlight. We looked out the window and waited for cars to pass. Sometimes I put her under my parka and took her outside to look at the stars. They were wonderful, magical hours. Of course she stopped waking like that, and of course I miss it. And how nice to have memories of looking at the stars to take to lonely-old-ladyhood with me, instead of 'kid finally STFU when I stopped coming.'
posted by kmennie at 8:54 PM on October 17, 2010 [10 favorites]
A few years ago I was reading through a now-dead site called "truemomconfessions.com" and came across
One afternoon my six week old baby was very fussy when I put her down for a nap. I picked her up and nursed her again. She was still very fussy. I decided to put her back to bed and let her cry it out I guess. She cried pretty loud and I just turned up the t.v. louder. After about 15 minutes or so, she stopped crying. I assumed she went to sleep and I was happy. About two hours later I went to check on her and she had died of SIDS. I have never forgiven myself and certainly expect that people would agree that I was a terrible mother. That happened 27 years ago and I still hate myself for it.
which sums it up pretty neatly, I feel. There are risks to letting babies scream untended to. Never mind that it's just not a reasonable thing to do. It is bad 'parenting' and I would've, after snarking, not returned to a doctor who'd offered such dreadful advice. (And why is a physician trying to advise on parenting, anyway?) The kid is not "meant to" have his own room; solitary infant sleeping (just sleeping, never mind screaming) is associated with a higher risk of SIDS. Some of the "information" you are getting here is pretty bad. Viz http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8680184
Will giving formula or solids at night help baby to sleep better? The idea that solids will help your baby sleep is an old wives' tale that has been disproven by medical studies. Feeding your baby solids or formula in an attempt to make baby sleep longer is not a good idea for several reasons... There are health advantages to exclusive breastfeeding, so stay the course on that one. (Also useful: Another myth... Rice cereal makes babies sleep)
I do not understand why people use pacifiers -- and I don't mean that as, "Boy they're stupid" snark; I mean, I do not understand why, what's going on during the day that you can't stuff him in a sling and jam in a breast? Or turn on a mechanical swing while you're getting dinner on, or whatever; I had three younger siblings and never saw one in use so do not understand how the "Ah ha! I need a pacifier" idea comes about. And, and this is one big thing I wonder every time I see the many variations on your question, what did you expect to happen when you bought the pacifiers? Oh, boy, a hassle to keep putting back in. Oh dear, how do we stop using it? But I would wean, yes, gently. Let him find his thumb if he needs it, make with the milk, not a big deal.
IF you don't wean him from the pacifier, research indicates that if not pushed children discard them by themselves quite easily between 2 and 4. If pushed (this goes for thumbs as well) that guarantee is off and they keep 'em longer and fight giving them up. Statistically speaking, anyway.
Here is one anthropologist's perspective on tots and sleeping through the night which you may find interesting. I also do not understand the fetish for an uninterrupted night. Yes, every hour to put a pacifier in, I can see how that would be objectionable. But to leave them to sob until they shut up all night every night! Good lord. My daughter woke plenty, still wakes, and, most frustratingly, woke for two-hour intervals every so often between 1 and 2. At first I kicked about this, and sat there very sullen and doing as little as possible. After a few nights of this nonsense on my part I realised that nothing I did was going to alter the course of our sleep, but we didn't have to fight during it. I poured myself a little nip of Bailey's, I got a flashlight. We looked out the window and waited for cars to pass. Sometimes I put her under my parka and took her outside to look at the stars. They were wonderful, magical hours. Of course she stopped waking like that, and of course I miss it. And how nice to have memories of looking at the stars to take to lonely-old-ladyhood with me, instead of 'kid finally STFU when I stopped coming.'
posted by kmennie at 8:54 PM on October 17, 2010 [10 favorites]
Can you sleep in a family bed so he can breastfeed on demand and use your breast instead of a pacifier?
Can you pump breastmilk to give him a bottle at night instead of formula, if that makes you uncomfortable?
posted by bq at 9:26 PM on October 17, 2010
Can you pump breastmilk to give him a bottle at night instead of formula, if that makes you uncomfortable?
posted by bq at 9:26 PM on October 17, 2010
We finally wound up putting a dozen pacifiers scattered around her crib at night so if she loses it she can find another one easily
We had the same problem, and a friend suggested the same solution as this, which also worked for us. We literally just went out and bought a dozen pacifiers and scattered them all around her head. She quickly learned to just swing her arm up and grab one and slept better after that.
posted by mathowie at 10:52 PM on October 17, 2010
We had the same problem, and a friend suggested the same solution as this, which also worked for us. We literally just went out and bought a dozen pacifiers and scattered them all around her head. She quickly learned to just swing her arm up and grab one and slept better after that.
posted by mathowie at 10:52 PM on October 17, 2010
There are risks to letting babies scream untended to. Never mind that it's just not a reasonable thing to do. It is bad 'parenting' and I would've, after snarking, not returned to a doctor who'd offered such dreadful advice.
Let's just be clear on one thing: crying doesn't cause SIDS. That's a heartbreaking story you quote, and I feel for the mother, and she's clearly still trying to find some rhyme or reason for why her baby died, but it wasn't because of crying. There's actually some evidence that bed-sharing increases the incidence of SIDS (here and here). That last article also discusses the usefulness of pacifiers in preventing SIDS; sleeping in the same room (not co-sleeping, it should be noted) also seems to have a downward affect on SIDS rates.
And to brand parents who sleep-train using whatever method works for them as people who just want their kids to "STFU" is, frankly, appalling.
Hysteria about SIDS shouldn't be part of this conversation. I'm continually amazed at how fantastically judgmental people can get when talking about parenting styles. Do what works for you, seek advice from people who don't berate you for your choices, and tune out the rest. And just to add to what others have said, feeding from a bottle (whether formula or pumped breast milk) will allow you to determine how much milk your kid is getting, allowing you to keep a closer eye on their fullness level. Sleep-training is hard and (clearly!) isn't for everyone, but it's a useful tool for many. A well-rested person is probably a better parent than a constantly-sleepy one. Soon your kid will be able to put the pacifier in his mouth himself; heck, it might even be tomorrow. My wife and I got rid of all the pacifiers when our baby started getting teeth at 5 months. The first day wasn't so good, but it quickly got better. You might consider hiding them and seeing what happens for a couple days.
posted by incessant at 12:41 AM on October 18, 2010 [14 favorites]
Let's just be clear on one thing: crying doesn't cause SIDS. That's a heartbreaking story you quote, and I feel for the mother, and she's clearly still trying to find some rhyme or reason for why her baby died, but it wasn't because of crying. There's actually some evidence that bed-sharing increases the incidence of SIDS (here and here). That last article also discusses the usefulness of pacifiers in preventing SIDS; sleeping in the same room (not co-sleeping, it should be noted) also seems to have a downward affect on SIDS rates.
And to brand parents who sleep-train using whatever method works for them as people who just want their kids to "STFU" is, frankly, appalling.
Hysteria about SIDS shouldn't be part of this conversation. I'm continually amazed at how fantastically judgmental people can get when talking about parenting styles. Do what works for you, seek advice from people who don't berate you for your choices, and tune out the rest. And just to add to what others have said, feeding from a bottle (whether formula or pumped breast milk) will allow you to determine how much milk your kid is getting, allowing you to keep a closer eye on their fullness level. Sleep-training is hard and (clearly!) isn't for everyone, but it's a useful tool for many. A well-rested person is probably a better parent than a constantly-sleepy one. Soon your kid will be able to put the pacifier in his mouth himself; heck, it might even be tomorrow. My wife and I got rid of all the pacifiers when our baby started getting teeth at 5 months. The first day wasn't so good, but it quickly got better. You might consider hiding them and seeing what happens for a couple days.
posted by incessant at 12:41 AM on October 18, 2010 [14 favorites]
incessant: that first paper says precisely the opposite of what you claimed!
According to the section paper you mention, you can reduce the incidence of SIDS due to bed sharing essentially to background levels by a) not smoking during pregnancy (and possibly afterwards) and b) never bringing your child into bed with you (or anyone else in the bed) are drunk or extremely tired. Oh, and never, ever go to sleep on a couch / settee with your baby.
IIRC from reading about this back when it mattered to us there's some evidence that being overweight is a contributory factor as well, but I don't have any references to hand.
The reality is that small babies wake up a lot, which is very wearing & can seem to the parents like a never ending purgatory but in fact it does get better. Every family ends up with their own particular experience though & the variance is large so it's very difficult to draw any useful conclusions from other people's personal experience. Not that this always stops them from assuming that what worked for them will work for you, nor from assuming you that if it doesn't it must be your fault. (The same goes for a bunch of parental self-help books...)
posted by pharm at 3:17 AM on October 18, 2010
According to the section paper you mention, you can reduce the incidence of SIDS due to bed sharing essentially to background levels by a) not smoking during pregnancy (and possibly afterwards) and b) never bringing your child into bed with you (or anyone else in the bed) are drunk or extremely tired. Oh, and never, ever go to sleep on a couch / settee with your baby.
IIRC from reading about this back when it mattered to us there's some evidence that being overweight is a contributory factor as well, but I don't have any references to hand.
The reality is that small babies wake up a lot, which is very wearing & can seem to the parents like a never ending purgatory but in fact it does get better. Every family ends up with their own particular experience though & the variance is large so it's very difficult to draw any useful conclusions from other people's personal experience. Not that this always stops them from assuming that what worked for them will work for you, nor from assuming you that if it doesn't it must be your fault. (The same goes for a bunch of parental self-help books...)
posted by pharm at 3:17 AM on October 18, 2010
Meant to add a direct reply to the original question:
1) I've no idea. We sleep trained much later.
2) Maybe.
3) Probably not, although you might get more sleep! Also a side effect may be an end to breast feeding as the reduction in demand causes a reduction in supply, but that's by no means certain.
The solution your pediatrician suggests will probably work. For us personally, we just thought it seemed too cruel to take away a small child's cry for support when it would at other times be given without question & went for the graduated approach (pace the No Cry Sleep Solution) when the children were older, which did work but probably took somewhat longer.
(Prior to that, they would have been in bed with us & my wife would have just put them back to the breast & gone back to sleep I suspect.)
posted by pharm at 3:27 AM on October 18, 2010
1) I've no idea. We sleep trained much later.
2) Maybe.
3) Probably not, although you might get more sleep! Also a side effect may be an end to breast feeding as the reduction in demand causes a reduction in supply, but that's by no means certain.
The solution your pediatrician suggests will probably work. For us personally, we just thought it seemed too cruel to take away a small child's cry for support when it would at other times be given without question & went for the graduated approach (pace the No Cry Sleep Solution) when the children were older, which did work but probably took somewhat longer.
(Prior to that, they would have been in bed with us & my wife would have just put them back to the breast & gone back to sleep I suspect.)
posted by pharm at 3:27 AM on October 18, 2010
incessant: Let's just be clear on one thing: crying doesn't cause SIDS. That's a heartbreaking story you quote, and I feel for the mother, and she's clearly still trying to find some rhyme or reason for why her baby died, but it wasn't because of crying.
Forcing a routine where a child sleeps through the night due to the way sleep training works also creates a sleep pattern that is developmentally too deep and too long. Babies are designed to wake frequently - high levels of arousal are linked with less SIDS. And there are children who have had underlying medical issues exacerbated to the point of serious harm by crying incessantly. Simply the physiological response of vomiting after crying for extended periods is unsafe.
Not to mention the result for the first study is "Although numerous authors have suggested that bed-sharing infants face risks because of airway covering by bed-clothes or parental bodies, the present trial does not lend support to this hypothesis." and the second seems to lump a whole range of terribly unsafe behaviours under co-sleeping as if it were all relevant to SIDS and cosleeping (hint: don't do it while drinking, smoking, drugged on anything that impacts sleep/arousal levels and don't do it with anyone other than you, your child and maybe your partner if they can follow all the same rules - being drunk and falling asleep on your baby who you left on the couch is NOT the same as deliberately sleeping with your baby on a bed with appropriate bedding).
Baby anachronism is pretty much now a toddler anachronism and sleeping through. She bed-shared for most of her life, either with the cot pushed up to the bed or in our bed. She moved to a cot in our room around 12 months or so I think? Her sleep did go to shit at six months (pretty much as soon as we introduced solids) and took a while to come back to what I considered normal. Until then I went to bed early and/or slept in as long as possible and when that wasn't possible I made it possible. She's still in our room and it isn't an issue - she sleeps through us coming to bed unless there's an inordinate amount of noise and we average 6 or so hours in a block. Usually she wakes with me and the sun but this morning was a little odd and she slept until I had to wake her so I could go to work with non-full boobs.
So contrary to what some people have said, it does get better. We never pushed anything - no sleep training, no crying to teach her a lesson about anything, no 'big girl'/independent stuff. We simply followed her lead as to what she needed. She needed frequent feeds so we worked out how to make that happen without sending me crazy. Bedsharing helped, ditching as much housework as possible helped and going to bed ridiculously early helped. Not monitoring her feeds helped as well - she dictates how hungry she is, not a clock and not a bottle. And it got better. Slowly, but surely, her sleep patterns changed and lengthened and they will continue to change.
She never had a pacifier so I have no idea on the that but toddler anachronism certainly had the manual dexterity to stick something in her mouth around 5-6 month.
She's not had formula as an older baby/toddler but bottles never really made her sleep better - the formula as a newborn didn't change anything and the EBM as an older baby didn't do much either. Solids absolutely fucked her sleep up beyond repair but I don't know if that was entirely because of solids or developmental or immunological or what but I am VEHEMENTLY against people advising solids/more formula to make a child sleep. It's an uncool habit to get into and it interferes with their ability to monitor fullness and hunger signals.
posted by geek anachronism at 3:31 AM on October 18, 2010 [2 favorites]
Forcing a routine where a child sleeps through the night due to the way sleep training works also creates a sleep pattern that is developmentally too deep and too long. Babies are designed to wake frequently - high levels of arousal are linked with less SIDS. And there are children who have had underlying medical issues exacerbated to the point of serious harm by crying incessantly. Simply the physiological response of vomiting after crying for extended periods is unsafe.
Not to mention the result for the first study is "Although numerous authors have suggested that bed-sharing infants face risks because of airway covering by bed-clothes or parental bodies, the present trial does not lend support to this hypothesis." and the second seems to lump a whole range of terribly unsafe behaviours under co-sleeping as if it were all relevant to SIDS and cosleeping (hint: don't do it while drinking, smoking, drugged on anything that impacts sleep/arousal levels and don't do it with anyone other than you, your child and maybe your partner if they can follow all the same rules - being drunk and falling asleep on your baby who you left on the couch is NOT the same as deliberately sleeping with your baby on a bed with appropriate bedding).
Baby anachronism is pretty much now a toddler anachronism and sleeping through. She bed-shared for most of her life, either with the cot pushed up to the bed or in our bed. She moved to a cot in our room around 12 months or so I think? Her sleep did go to shit at six months (pretty much as soon as we introduced solids) and took a while to come back to what I considered normal. Until then I went to bed early and/or slept in as long as possible and when that wasn't possible I made it possible. She's still in our room and it isn't an issue - she sleeps through us coming to bed unless there's an inordinate amount of noise and we average 6 or so hours in a block. Usually she wakes with me and the sun but this morning was a little odd and she slept until I had to wake her so I could go to work with non-full boobs.
So contrary to what some people have said, it does get better. We never pushed anything - no sleep training, no crying to teach her a lesson about anything, no 'big girl'/independent stuff. We simply followed her lead as to what she needed. She needed frequent feeds so we worked out how to make that happen without sending me crazy. Bedsharing helped, ditching as much housework as possible helped and going to bed ridiculously early helped. Not monitoring her feeds helped as well - she dictates how hungry she is, not a clock and not a bottle. And it got better. Slowly, but surely, her sleep patterns changed and lengthened and they will continue to change.
She never had a pacifier so I have no idea on the that but toddler anachronism certainly had the manual dexterity to stick something in her mouth around 5-6 month.
She's not had formula as an older baby/toddler but bottles never really made her sleep better - the formula as a newborn didn't change anything and the EBM as an older baby didn't do much either. Solids absolutely fucked her sleep up beyond repair but I don't know if that was entirely because of solids or developmental or immunological or what but I am VEHEMENTLY against people advising solids/more formula to make a child sleep. It's an uncool habit to get into and it interferes with their ability to monitor fullness and hunger signals.
posted by geek anachronism at 3:31 AM on October 18, 2010 [2 favorites]
Anyone suggesting pumping and bottle feeding to "keep a closer eye on their fullness level" or similar does not understand what is going on there. The quantity is not useful information; breast milk is not a uniform fluid. The milk meted out in smaller quantities at the end of a feed is very high-fat, creamy soporific stuff, and there is also some research that "suggests that breast milk contains substances that make babies sleepy—if that milk is produced in the evening or night-time." via
posted by kmennie at 5:59 AM on October 18, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by kmennie at 5:59 AM on October 18, 2010 [2 favorites]
Mod note: few comments removed - SIDS derail needs to go to email, thanks.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:26 AM on October 18, 2010
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:26 AM on October 18, 2010
We never pushed anything - no sleep training, no crying to teach her a lesson about anything, no 'big girl'/independent stuff. We simply followed her lead as to what she needed.
I can not favor this statement of Geek anachronism's strongly enough. Baby theBRKP was by no means sleep trained at six months, he still needed 1-2 feedings (of formula!) at six months. His doctor stressed that waking like this was normal until he was up to a year old.
Instead of trying put baby theBRKP on a schedule, Mr. theBRKP and I lowered our expectations about what he should be doing at any particular age. He is almost 11 months now and sleeping 10-12 hours at night. He still needs a cuddle to sleep and still wakes up occasionally especially if he has not gotten enough sleep during the day (the last three nights have been hellish because he has missed naps), but lowering our expectations as to what he "should" be doing to sleep has made a huge difference in our house.
So, to answer your questions:
1) In my experience, no.
2) No idea, baby theBRKP turned out to be in the no pacifier camp. The suggestions to scatter a bunch of around the bassinet are genius.
3) In my experience, no. See my statement above.
posted by theBigRedKittyPurrs at 7:09 AM on October 18, 2010
I can not favor this statement of Geek anachronism's strongly enough. Baby theBRKP was by no means sleep trained at six months, he still needed 1-2 feedings (of formula!) at six months. His doctor stressed that waking like this was normal until he was up to a year old.
Instead of trying put baby theBRKP on a schedule, Mr. theBRKP and I lowered our expectations about what he should be doing at any particular age. He is almost 11 months now and sleeping 10-12 hours at night. He still needs a cuddle to sleep and still wakes up occasionally especially if he has not gotten enough sleep during the day (the last three nights have been hellish because he has missed naps), but lowering our expectations as to what he "should" be doing to sleep has made a huge difference in our house.
So, to answer your questions:
1) In my experience, no.
2) No idea, baby theBRKP turned out to be in the no pacifier camp. The suggestions to scatter a bunch of around the bassinet are genius.
3) In my experience, no. See my statement above.
posted by theBigRedKittyPurrs at 7:09 AM on October 18, 2010
OP, please don't let the whole SIDS thing scare you away from doing whatever you determine is best. A single anonymous post made on a defunct website about the inexplicable, unforeseeable death of an infant 30 years ago is just not a basis for any claims whatsoever about the safety of allowing babies to cry themselves back to sleep; pretending it is only means participating in some poor woman's completely tragic, irrational self-blame and hatred.
It's obvious that doing the right thing on this issue is important to you. You've gotten lots of good advice already that will help you decide what that is. I just want to remind you that this crying-all-night stage, even though it's big and noisy and probably feels like your whole world right now, is only the beginning and is only for a short time, and whatever you do most likely won't have any serious, far-reaching consequences for you or your baby. You all have your whole lives ahead of you to shape and change one another. Don't worry about this too much.
posted by two or three cars parked under the stars at 7:22 AM on October 18, 2010 [6 favorites]
It's obvious that doing the right thing on this issue is important to you. You've gotten lots of good advice already that will help you decide what that is. I just want to remind you that this crying-all-night stage, even though it's big and noisy and probably feels like your whole world right now, is only the beginning and is only for a short time, and whatever you do most likely won't have any serious, far-reaching consequences for you or your baby. You all have your whole lives ahead of you to shape and change one another. Don't worry about this too much.
posted by two or three cars parked under the stars at 7:22 AM on October 18, 2010 [6 favorites]
In answer to (3), your child isn't waking because breastmilk isn't enough for her. She's waking because you've trained her to fall asleep under certain conditions -- including a pacifier in her mouth -- and when she has her little wakings during the night (universal, at that age), those conditions have changed, because the pacifier has fallen out. Sleep-trained babies have little wakings, too; they just find that everything's the same as when they went to sleep, so they can just fall asleep again!
Forcing a routine where a child sleeps through the night due to the way sleep training works also creates a sleep pattern that is developmentally too deep and too long. Babies are designed to wake frequently - high levels of arousal are linked with less SIDS.
My understanding was that the baby still has small wakings, but just self-soothes back to sleep. It's also possible that there are compensating benefits to brain development of a baby getting into a deeper sleep pattern. The changes to my second child's behavior and demeanor after being trained to sleep through the night (at 11 months) certainly made her more receptive to the world around her.
But anyway, I'd apply this to your question, OP, by waiting until you're outside the danger zone for SIDS (two to six months) before sleep-training. That's the guideline I've usually seen, anyway.
posted by palliser at 7:45 AM on October 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
Forcing a routine where a child sleeps through the night due to the way sleep training works also creates a sleep pattern that is developmentally too deep and too long. Babies are designed to wake frequently - high levels of arousal are linked with less SIDS.
My understanding was that the baby still has small wakings, but just self-soothes back to sleep. It's also possible that there are compensating benefits to brain development of a baby getting into a deeper sleep pattern. The changes to my second child's behavior and demeanor after being trained to sleep through the night (at 11 months) certainly made her more receptive to the world around her.
But anyway, I'd apply this to your question, OP, by waiting until you're outside the danger zone for SIDS (two to six months) before sleep-training. That's the guideline I've usually seen, anyway.
posted by palliser at 7:45 AM on October 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
A 4.5 month old baby lives on pure instinct, and he is crying because his needs are not being met. In your case it sounds like those are:
1. Hungry! Need food! and
2. Hey I was sucking on something, which released my comfort hormones and made me feel gooood. It's gone and i want it back! and maybe a little bit of
3. I haven't cuddled my mum in a while, does she still love me? Reinforcement please!
Any form of "sleep training" this early would effectively ignore his attempts at communicating his needs, and I personally would avoid that at all cost. (I am rather appalled by your doctor's advice, and also some of the pro-crying advice you are getting here.) Letting him "cry it out" would tell your son that you will not meet his needs and he can stop trying to communicate them already. The pacifier issue can be eliminated through weaning, but you'd have to weigh the pros and cons - personally I would put up with it for another couple of months until he can re-insert it himself.
There is a time and place for so called sleep training in a young infant, and for me that is when the lack of sleep is causing severe reactions in the primary caregiver. If you are unable to function and experiencing anxiety/depression due to sleep deprivation then you need to do something as per the "fit your own oxygen mask before assisting others" rule. But if it's only because 8 consecutive hours of sleep would be more comfortable than 2x4, I'd reevaluate my priorities. YMMV!
posted by heytch at 7:59 AM on October 18, 2010 [3 favorites]
1. Hungry! Need food! and
2. Hey I was sucking on something, which released my comfort hormones and made me feel gooood. It's gone and i want it back! and maybe a little bit of
3. I haven't cuddled my mum in a while, does she still love me? Reinforcement please!
Any form of "sleep training" this early would effectively ignore his attempts at communicating his needs, and I personally would avoid that at all cost. (I am rather appalled by your doctor's advice, and also some of the pro-crying advice you are getting here.) Letting him "cry it out" would tell your son that you will not meet his needs and he can stop trying to communicate them already. The pacifier issue can be eliminated through weaning, but you'd have to weigh the pros and cons - personally I would put up with it for another couple of months until he can re-insert it himself.
There is a time and place for so called sleep training in a young infant, and for me that is when the lack of sleep is causing severe reactions in the primary caregiver. If you are unable to function and experiencing anxiety/depression due to sleep deprivation then you need to do something as per the "fit your own oxygen mask before assisting others" rule. But if it's only because 8 consecutive hours of sleep would be more comfortable than 2x4, I'd reevaluate my priorities. YMMV!
posted by heytch at 7:59 AM on October 18, 2010 [3 favorites]
No one (really, no one, Ferber, Weissbluth, whomever), suggests sleep training a six week old baby, that's crazy, that's a strawman.
And sleep habits don't just get "better" in all babies, "just wait" is not always the answer.
And bed sharing, no matter how badly you want to do it, doesn't always work.
There's a point at which parents' exhaustion after many months of sleepless nights begins to harm the family and the ability to lovingly care for the child and retain one's job, sanity, and relationship. At that point, the conceptual harm caused by a couple of nights of sleep training is far outweighed by the negatives of an exhausted baby and exhausted parents. And that sleep training is not going to ruin an otherwise well-attached and happy baby who has been lovingly attended to for her whole life.
I guess I'm just frustrated by vague Dr. Sears allegations of harm to a child from sleep training when there are real tangible harms to sleep exhaustion in child and parents.
posted by seventyfour at 9:04 AM on October 18, 2010 [4 favorites]
And sleep habits don't just get "better" in all babies, "just wait" is not always the answer.
And bed sharing, no matter how badly you want to do it, doesn't always work.
There's a point at which parents' exhaustion after many months of sleepless nights begins to harm the family and the ability to lovingly care for the child and retain one's job, sanity, and relationship. At that point, the conceptual harm caused by a couple of nights of sleep training is far outweighed by the negatives of an exhausted baby and exhausted parents. And that sleep training is not going to ruin an otherwise well-attached and happy baby who has been lovingly attended to for her whole life.
I guess I'm just frustrated by vague Dr. Sears allegations of harm to a child from sleep training when there are real tangible harms to sleep exhaustion in child and parents.
posted by seventyfour at 9:04 AM on October 18, 2010 [4 favorites]
(Spoken as someone who otherwise is quite fond of the Dr. Sears / attachment parenting model and has followed it quite closely, baby wearing, homebirthing, and all).
posted by seventyfour at 9:05 AM on October 18, 2010
posted by seventyfour at 9:05 AM on October 18, 2010
Welcome to parenting, the long and sometimes arduous process of trying to decide which of your ideals to let go out of pragmatism. You'll run into the same turmoil about whether to bring in McDonald's, or let them watch yet another episode of Backyardigans, or walk home from school alone, or wear that skirt that's just a little too short, etc., etc.
It will all be OK. Parents don't have to be perfect, they just have to be good enough. Nobody will be able to look at your child in ten years and say "That there baby was fed formula/breastmilk, and was a co-sleeper/crib-sleeper, and the child has surely suffered as a result of all that awful parenting."
Everyone does the best they have in them to get through the day. Some days that's going to be better than other days. Odds are vastly in your favor that the best you have in you will be plenty good enough.
1. I do believe the Ferber method says you shouldn't ever begin sleep-training before six months, because babies physiologically need to wake more often before that.
2. I don't know, I could never get my girls to use a pacifier, and not for lack of trying.
3. I don't know, I never used formula, but I've heard the same thing -- formula takes longer to digest.
Anecdata: We wound up Ferberizing our first at around eight months old, I think it was. It sucks for a couple of days and then it's like a miracle. She's eight years old now and doesn't seem to be holding a grudge about it. The second one we couldn't do this with because she would wake up the older kid, but she didn't have the same sleep problems anyway. Lucky us.
Other random information as I understand it: At 4.5 months old, don't expect the baby to sleep more than six hours at a stretch. Longer than that is unrealistic, especially in a breast-fed baby.
posted by Andrhia at 9:40 AM on October 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
It will all be OK. Parents don't have to be perfect, they just have to be good enough. Nobody will be able to look at your child in ten years and say "That there baby was fed formula/breastmilk, and was a co-sleeper/crib-sleeper, and the child has surely suffered as a result of all that awful parenting."
Everyone does the best they have in them to get through the day. Some days that's going to be better than other days. Odds are vastly in your favor that the best you have in you will be plenty good enough.
1. I do believe the Ferber method says you shouldn't ever begin sleep-training before six months, because babies physiologically need to wake more often before that.
2. I don't know, I could never get my girls to use a pacifier, and not for lack of trying.
3. I don't know, I never used formula, but I've heard the same thing -- formula takes longer to digest.
Anecdata: We wound up Ferberizing our first at around eight months old, I think it was. It sucks for a couple of days and then it's like a miracle. She's eight years old now and doesn't seem to be holding a grudge about it. The second one we couldn't do this with because she would wake up the older kid, but she didn't have the same sleep problems anyway. Lucky us.
Other random information as I understand it: At 4.5 months old, don't expect the baby to sleep more than six hours at a stretch. Longer than that is unrealistic, especially in a breast-fed baby.
posted by Andrhia at 9:40 AM on October 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
Cry it out. It only takes a few nights and you get your quality of life back.
You also have to consider why the child is using the pacifier: is it to pacify or is it to strengthen their sucking motion? Once they're past the need for a mouth workout in order to get milk, there's no need for a pacifier.
posted by PSB at 10:00 AM on October 18, 2010
You also have to consider why the child is using the pacifier: is it to pacify or is it to strengthen their sucking motion? Once they're past the need for a mouth workout in order to get milk, there's no need for a pacifier.
posted by PSB at 10:00 AM on October 18, 2010
If you're not comfortable with cry-it-out techniques (I never was), a book that I found really helpful when I had a kid who didn't sleep through the night was The No-Cry Sleep Solution. It is full of various ideas of things that might help; many of them did indeed help me and my son. We didn't have a miraculous switch to sleeping twelve hours a night in three days like some people who've done CIO claim to, but we did see improvement, and improvement was enough to keep me sane and hopeful while the little guy aged into sleeping better.
posted by not that girl at 11:49 AM on October 18, 2010
posted by not that girl at 11:49 AM on October 18, 2010
A few years ago I was reading through a now-dead site called "truemomconfessions.com"
That site is still around, at a different URL.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 4:34 AM on October 19, 2010
That site is still around, at a different URL.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 4:34 AM on October 19, 2010
My son never got into pacifiers so I can't speak to that. But I will point you to another book, The Wonder Weeks, and a very informative blog post from Ask Moxie on sleep regression. Babies' sleep patterns are impacted by more than just full tummies and/or a pacifier. Their sleep patterns are often interrupted when they reach certain cognitive milestones, and one of those happens around four months. It's temporary, but understanding the patterns goes a long way towards calming frayed and exhausted parental nerves.
posted by ambrosia at 10:05 AM on October 19, 2010
posted by ambrosia at 10:05 AM on October 19, 2010
Response by poster: Update: Nothing has changed. He's 5.5 months. Waiting to wean him from pacifier/sleep train for another couple of weeks.
posted by kristymcj at 7:15 AM on November 10, 2010
posted by kristymcj at 7:15 AM on November 10, 2010
Best answer: Sorry i didn't see you came back to the thread, and sorry that nothing has worked for you. Does his mean your baby is still waking up crying and does/can not insert a pacifier on his own? And is still sleeping in the same room with you?
I think you might have an easier time of getting the baby to learn not to expect you to put the pacifier in if you were not in he same room. It may be that you replacing the bouncy is now sort of a learned sleep behavior -- I mean something that he baby associates with being able to go back to sleep.
I had one of these with my daughter -- I used to stand by her crib with my hand on her chest for a few minutes until she fell asleep. I think she eventually "learned" that she needed this to fall asleep, because bwrween about 4 months and 11 months she mostly refused to fall asleep unless I stood there for a few minutes, and sometimes it took longer than a few minutes. I did this at 7 at night, and at 2 or 3 in the morning after a feeding. It was unfortunate thAt I u intentionally taught her this, but I am a first time parent and basically was feeling my way through things.
The result was that except door once on my birthday, I didn't get a full night of sleep until my daughter was 11 months old. I was sleep deprived and cranky and exhausted, and I didn't realize how far things had been from normal for me until we cried it out at 11 months -- it took 3 nights and not very much crying at all -- and I started sleeping through the night again.
So . . . You wrote this question in October and you were tired then, I can only imagine your level of tired has gotten worse and not better. Since your pediatrician suggested a crying it out approach a month ago, you may not need to wait anymore to try it. I understand if you do -- I waited until 11 months out of similar concerns, but looking back I certainly wish I had not waited that long.
We didn't do a complete cold turkey in cry it out approaches, but if she cried we checked in on herbin 5 minutes, then in theory after ten, then fifteen if she kept crying. In practice we only had to go in I think once for two nights after 5 minutes, because after that first check in she never cried for 10 minutes afterwards. We didn't picknher up nor sooth her, just popped in and said we loved her and it was time for bed and that she should sleep.
Anyway, if younhave not tried giving him multiple binkies I would try that too, but I'm assuming you did that.
Sorry this is so long -- I basically came in here to say that it is okay to make your own sleep important, too, and that as mothers we sometimes may not realize when we are marginalizing our own mental and physical health to prioritize our babies. At the time I felt very stubborn about things, thinking that I was a badass and I could handle it if I could help my baby just a little. I didn't need to be so concerned about my daughter -- she is very resilient, and I really could have used those nights of uninterrupted sleep.
Good luck to you! Hope things have already improved for you and this comment isn't even relevant anymore!
posted by onlyconnect at 2:21 PM on November 22, 2010
I think you might have an easier time of getting the baby to learn not to expect you to put the pacifier in if you were not in he same room. It may be that you replacing the bouncy is now sort of a learned sleep behavior -- I mean something that he baby associates with being able to go back to sleep.
I had one of these with my daughter -- I used to stand by her crib with my hand on her chest for a few minutes until she fell asleep. I think she eventually "learned" that she needed this to fall asleep, because bwrween about 4 months and 11 months she mostly refused to fall asleep unless I stood there for a few minutes, and sometimes it took longer than a few minutes. I did this at 7 at night, and at 2 or 3 in the morning after a feeding. It was unfortunate thAt I u intentionally taught her this, but I am a first time parent and basically was feeling my way through things.
The result was that except door once on my birthday, I didn't get a full night of sleep until my daughter was 11 months old. I was sleep deprived and cranky and exhausted, and I didn't realize how far things had been from normal for me until we cried it out at 11 months -- it took 3 nights and not very much crying at all -- and I started sleeping through the night again.
So . . . You wrote this question in October and you were tired then, I can only imagine your level of tired has gotten worse and not better. Since your pediatrician suggested a crying it out approach a month ago, you may not need to wait anymore to try it. I understand if you do -- I waited until 11 months out of similar concerns, but looking back I certainly wish I had not waited that long.
We didn't do a complete cold turkey in cry it out approaches, but if she cried we checked in on herbin 5 minutes, then in theory after ten, then fifteen if she kept crying. In practice we only had to go in I think once for two nights after 5 minutes, because after that first check in she never cried for 10 minutes afterwards. We didn't picknher up nor sooth her, just popped in and said we loved her and it was time for bed and that she should sleep.
Anyway, if younhave not tried giving him multiple binkies I would try that too, but I'm assuming you did that.
Sorry this is so long -- I basically came in here to say that it is okay to make your own sleep important, too, and that as mothers we sometimes may not realize when we are marginalizing our own mental and physical health to prioritize our babies. At the time I felt very stubborn about things, thinking that I was a badass and I could handle it if I could help my baby just a little. I didn't need to be so concerned about my daughter -- she is very resilient, and I really could have used those nights of uninterrupted sleep.
Good luck to you! Hope things have already improved for you and this comment isn't even relevant anymore!
posted by onlyconnect at 2:21 PM on November 22, 2010
Ugh typos sorry. Bouncy = binky = pacifier, intentionally = unintentionally, door = for. Sorry!
posted by onlyconnect at 2:27 PM on November 22, 2010
posted by onlyconnect at 2:27 PM on November 22, 2010
Response by poster: Updated update:
We got the Nuk that someone upstream suggested and stuck a lot of em int he crib. No luck.
We took away his paciFIRE for 11 verrrrryyyy loooong days. He wouldn't nap except in the car and was sleeping maybe 9 hours a night. He also wasn't himself. Not smiley or giggly, so we gave in. That was one of the best days ever. He bounced right back.
Two weeks later he learned to put it in on his own.
Now he has sleep problems, but unrelated to the paciFIRE. We plan to CIO via Ferber when my husband's off for the holiday break.
FTR for the snarky punk who asked what a paciFIRE is for, it's for pacifying. Welcome to the English language.
posted by kristymcj at 5:08 PM on December 6, 2010
We got the Nuk that someone upstream suggested and stuck a lot of em int he crib. No luck.
We took away his paciFIRE for 11 verrrrryyyy loooong days. He wouldn't nap except in the car and was sleeping maybe 9 hours a night. He also wasn't himself. Not smiley or giggly, so we gave in. That was one of the best days ever. He bounced right back.
Two weeks later he learned to put it in on his own.
Now he has sleep problems, but unrelated to the paciFIRE. We plan to CIO via Ferber when my husband's off for the holiday break.
FTR for the snarky punk who asked what a paciFIRE is for, it's for pacifying. Welcome to the English language.
posted by kristymcj at 5:08 PM on December 6, 2010
Response by poster: Updated update:
At 6.5 months we moved him to his own crib and did graduated extinction(Ferber) every 7,9,11,13 minutes. He crib for 35 minutes the first night, 15 the second, and 3 the third. Major success. He's sleeping 12 hours straight every night (we dream feed) and he surprised me by learning to put his paciFIRE in on the second night.
posted by kristymcj at 5:39 PM on December 30, 2010
At 6.5 months we moved him to his own crib and did graduated extinction(Ferber) every 7,9,11,13 minutes. He crib for 35 minutes the first night, 15 the second, and 3 the third. Major success. He's sleeping 12 hours straight every night (we dream feed) and he surprised me by learning to put his paciFIRE in on the second night.
posted by kristymcj at 5:39 PM on December 30, 2010
Oh how wonderful! Congratulations to you, I am so glad for you and your family! Woot!!!
posted by onlyconnect at 6:48 PM on December 31, 2010
posted by onlyconnect at 6:48 PM on December 31, 2010
An update on our (onlyconnect's and mine) spawn's nighttime multibinky habit: we wound up going back to one binky only, because she started stimulating herself by playing with and ejecting the binkies, and that stimulation kept her up. Also, it turns out that sleepy babies aren't great at math and so a dozen binkies seemed infinite to her, so throwing out each one you encounter will never lead to lack-o-binky. This assumption leads to tears for babby and parents. Making a show of going back to one binky fixed it with minimal fuss, and she mostly falls asleep faster and sleeps through. Actually, she sleeps in later these days than she did before.
posted by NortonDC at 10:20 PM on March 2, 2011
posted by NortonDC at 10:20 PM on March 2, 2011
This thread is closed to new comments.
2. I don't know.
3. I don't think so. I don't think that it is true for rice cereal either.
Personally, I think that 4.5 months is too young for crying it out and that at that age 2 times a night is the minimum.
I'd read a bunch of books (No Cry Sleep Solution and others recommended on Metafilter) and make your own informed decision.
posted by k8t at 6:39 PM on October 17, 2010