Grant me the serenity to accept the things I can not change!
October 14, 2010 8:17 AM Subscribe
How do I stop resenting my girlfriend's behaviour towards her ex?
About the same time she met me, my girlfriend, A, ended things with her ex, B, who she had been dating for about a year or so. I'm sure B has some good qualities, but she treated A pretty terribly. She was emotionally manipulative, controlling, withheld physical affection, lashed out verbally, and generally took A on a rollercoaster of emotion, anxiety, and guilt. Despite all this, A really cared for her in a "mother-child" way, and felt terribly about ending things with her. Because of this, she let B walk all over her during the breakup, allowing herself to be yelled at and questioned for hours every day, and agreeing to let B continue to live, free, in A's apartment. (A had been completely providing for them financially for some time.)
B also demanded that, were A to get a new girlfriend, she would not be allowed to speak her name, talk to her on the phone, look at facebook, or even mention her existence in A's own apartment. In the beginning of our relationship, A tried to hide my existence from B, lying to her about where she was going when we saw each other and sneaking out of the house to call me on the phone. A cried in my arms several times in the first couple of months because she felt guilty about leaving B, as she doubted her ability to care for herself. At first I had a lot of sympathy for A, and played along with the "I don't exist" game, but it soon started to make me feel angry and jealous.
Eventually A told B of my existence - cue more guilt trips and yelling - and shortly after B got a new girlfriend as well. At the same time, my lease expired. Ideally I would have moved in with A, either in the apartment she already had or a new place, but she insisted she needed to continue financially supporting B so I got a small place by myself. But as these things go, A unofficially moved in shortly after and I can't remember the last time she went to her old place, which she continues to pay for. To be clear, I love having A around and don't need more space or anything like that, but the impracticality of it bothers me.
We are moving out of state in December, and A told B that's when she would be cut off financially. B was not happy about that but has accepted it. I'm glad there's an end in sight, but I keep thinking about how every month our expenses are double what they should be, and how much money we are wasting that we could be saving for our new life (I'm going back to school, so our income will be significantly reduced.) I keep thinking about how when we move, I will be sitting alone in our apartment while A and her family move her stuff out of her old apartment, since I am not allowed there. I think about how B and her new girlfriend are sitting pretty in A's apartment, and how her abusive and selfish behaviour really paid off.
This issue is easily the only one that brings us both to anger, and we have fought about it three times, repeating the same things to each other and never making any progress. A part of me is really proud of A because she is sticking by what she thinks is right, and she tends to struggle with guilt and appropriate boundaries. I'm glad she trusts me enough to argue with me. But I wish she would want to put up those boundaries with B instead.
The last time we fought A told me that I am treating her like a child who can't make decisions about her life, and that she needs me to be on her side. I want to respect her decision and be a team. I need to let go of my anger (towards B) and resentment (towards A.) I know A is doing this because she views it as fulfilling a promise - I just think it was a ridiculously irrational promise to make and one done in the context of an abusive relationship, so she shouldn't be expected to keep it. It sometimes feels like A is jeopardizing our own lives and relationship to keep B happy, which makes me feel angry and hurt.
I absolutely adore A, and I know she really loves me too. I need to just let this go, and be a more selfless and generous person. I need to accept that I can not control this situation, but I can control my reaction to it. But I have told myself to let it go over and over, and it's not working. What else can I try? What mantra do I repeat to myself? What's another perspective I can take that will make this easier to swallow?
Thank you all in advance.
About the same time she met me, my girlfriend, A, ended things with her ex, B, who she had been dating for about a year or so. I'm sure B has some good qualities, but she treated A pretty terribly. She was emotionally manipulative, controlling, withheld physical affection, lashed out verbally, and generally took A on a rollercoaster of emotion, anxiety, and guilt. Despite all this, A really cared for her in a "mother-child" way, and felt terribly about ending things with her. Because of this, she let B walk all over her during the breakup, allowing herself to be yelled at and questioned for hours every day, and agreeing to let B continue to live, free, in A's apartment. (A had been completely providing for them financially for some time.)
B also demanded that, were A to get a new girlfriend, she would not be allowed to speak her name, talk to her on the phone, look at facebook, or even mention her existence in A's own apartment. In the beginning of our relationship, A tried to hide my existence from B, lying to her about where she was going when we saw each other and sneaking out of the house to call me on the phone. A cried in my arms several times in the first couple of months because she felt guilty about leaving B, as she doubted her ability to care for herself. At first I had a lot of sympathy for A, and played along with the "I don't exist" game, but it soon started to make me feel angry and jealous.
Eventually A told B of my existence - cue more guilt trips and yelling - and shortly after B got a new girlfriend as well. At the same time, my lease expired. Ideally I would have moved in with A, either in the apartment she already had or a new place, but she insisted she needed to continue financially supporting B so I got a small place by myself. But as these things go, A unofficially moved in shortly after and I can't remember the last time she went to her old place, which she continues to pay for. To be clear, I love having A around and don't need more space or anything like that, but the impracticality of it bothers me.
We are moving out of state in December, and A told B that's when she would be cut off financially. B was not happy about that but has accepted it. I'm glad there's an end in sight, but I keep thinking about how every month our expenses are double what they should be, and how much money we are wasting that we could be saving for our new life (I'm going back to school, so our income will be significantly reduced.) I keep thinking about how when we move, I will be sitting alone in our apartment while A and her family move her stuff out of her old apartment, since I am not allowed there. I think about how B and her new girlfriend are sitting pretty in A's apartment, and how her abusive and selfish behaviour really paid off.
This issue is easily the only one that brings us both to anger, and we have fought about it three times, repeating the same things to each other and never making any progress. A part of me is really proud of A because she is sticking by what she thinks is right, and she tends to struggle with guilt and appropriate boundaries. I'm glad she trusts me enough to argue with me. But I wish she would want to put up those boundaries with B instead.
The last time we fought A told me that I am treating her like a child who can't make decisions about her life, and that she needs me to be on her side. I want to respect her decision and be a team. I need to let go of my anger (towards B) and resentment (towards A.) I know A is doing this because she views it as fulfilling a promise - I just think it was a ridiculously irrational promise to make and one done in the context of an abusive relationship, so she shouldn't be expected to keep it. It sometimes feels like A is jeopardizing our own lives and relationship to keep B happy, which makes me feel angry and hurt.
I absolutely adore A, and I know she really loves me too. I need to just let this go, and be a more selfless and generous person. I need to accept that I can not control this situation, but I can control my reaction to it. But I have told myself to let it go over and over, and it's not working. What else can I try? What mantra do I repeat to myself? What's another perspective I can take that will make this easier to swallow?
Thank you all in advance.
I keep thinking about how every month our expenses are double what they should be, and how much money we are wasting that we could be saving for our new life (I'm going back to school, so our income will be significantly reduced.)
Emotional stuff aside, keep in mind that this part would probably be the case if she had any lease situation with roommates going on. People go through this all of the time. Everyone has life limitations get in the way of just moving in together and everything being peachy.
posted by almostmanda at 8:31 AM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
Emotional stuff aside, keep in mind that this part would probably be the case if she had any lease situation with roommates going on. People go through this all of the time. Everyone has life limitations get in the way of just moving in together and everything being peachy.
posted by almostmanda at 8:31 AM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I dealt with a similar issue in a recent relationship [unreasonable ex making unreasonable demands, my SO trying to smooth things over but winding up making compromises that I felt demanded a lot of me, SO financially taxed because of unreasonable (to me) damends of ex] and my advice is that you'll really need to see if you can let this go. Meaning, this is a mess, yes. It's hard to see someone that you love being mistreated by someone who then seems to get additional financial benefit from being awful. However, that situation is in the past and the only thing your SO can do moving forward is to do right by you and move on.
That said, there are steps your SO can take. Your SO can tell B that she needs your help moving and that if that means B needs to leave while she's moving that is what will need to happen [I wasn't available when my SO moved, but this would have been a sticky issue. I was tolerated in the house, but it was a constant strain]. Your SO can affirm to you that the financial support stops at a certain time and then keep that agreement. Your SO can take affirmative steps to let B's issues be B's issues and not to internalise them, make them her problem or make them your problem.
My issue, and maybe this is your issue too, is that I needed there to be an END. And I needed my SO to be my SO and not basically have someone whose opinion mattered more than mine, and whose feelings were more important than mine. My SO was a wonderful caring person who cared deeply for his ex who was dysfunctional and basically crazy. At the point at which we could have discussions where we talked about this as "our" issue [and not his issue that he mostly insulated me from] it became easier. I felt sorry for my SO who I felt had had his trust abused for years and was trying to do the right thing but wasn't sure what it was. Old habits die hard. Being emotionally abused is terrible, but coming to terms with it and naming it is even harder. My feeling, for me, was that I refused to take on the characteristics of being an emotional abuser. No yelling, no ultimatums, no "let's fight about something that happened a long time ago that you can't fix" Mistakes were made, sure, but at some level if you agreed to this while it was going on [albeit grudgingly] it's not that cool to continue to hold that against your SO now, when she's trying to make changes.
So, set some guidelines. Make it clear that you're supportive, you may not agree with how this was handled, but the two of you are planning a life and this blip will hopefully be a small part of a much longer better time together. And figure out if you can truly forgive in this case, because A seems to have made her decision, one that has a pretty short-term shelf life, and man if it were me I'd be counting the days and having a party when you move and saying goodbye to bad juju. It gets better.
posted by jessamyn at 8:40 AM on October 14, 2010 [11 favorites]
That said, there are steps your SO can take. Your SO can tell B that she needs your help moving and that if that means B needs to leave while she's moving that is what will need to happen [I wasn't available when my SO moved, but this would have been a sticky issue. I was tolerated in the house, but it was a constant strain]. Your SO can affirm to you that the financial support stops at a certain time and then keep that agreement. Your SO can take affirmative steps to let B's issues be B's issues and not to internalise them, make them her problem or make them your problem.
My issue, and maybe this is your issue too, is that I needed there to be an END. And I needed my SO to be my SO and not basically have someone whose opinion mattered more than mine, and whose feelings were more important than mine. My SO was a wonderful caring person who cared deeply for his ex who was dysfunctional and basically crazy. At the point at which we could have discussions where we talked about this as "our" issue [and not his issue that he mostly insulated me from] it became easier. I felt sorry for my SO who I felt had had his trust abused for years and was trying to do the right thing but wasn't sure what it was. Old habits die hard. Being emotionally abused is terrible, but coming to terms with it and naming it is even harder. My feeling, for me, was that I refused to take on the characteristics of being an emotional abuser. No yelling, no ultimatums, no "let's fight about something that happened a long time ago that you can't fix" Mistakes were made, sure, but at some level if you agreed to this while it was going on [albeit grudgingly] it's not that cool to continue to hold that against your SO now, when she's trying to make changes.
So, set some guidelines. Make it clear that you're supportive, you may not agree with how this was handled, but the two of you are planning a life and this blip will hopefully be a small part of a much longer better time together. And figure out if you can truly forgive in this case, because A seems to have made her decision, one that has a pretty short-term shelf life, and man if it were me I'd be counting the days and having a party when you move and saying goodbye to bad juju. It gets better.
posted by jessamyn at 8:40 AM on October 14, 2010 [11 favorites]
Wait, A is financially supporting B, and not allowing you in their apartment?
A is still in love with B, it seems to me, or at least is so codependent on her that she isn't able to handle an adult breakup.
I'd think twice before moving in with her. It sounds like this isn't going to end well.
posted by xingcat at 8:43 AM on October 14, 2010 [5 favorites]
A is still in love with B, it seems to me, or at least is so codependent on her that she isn't able to handle an adult breakup.
I'd think twice before moving in with her. It sounds like this isn't going to end well.
posted by xingcat at 8:43 AM on October 14, 2010 [5 favorites]
One more side note. You really need to think about whether this is about the money. It's easy for people who are anxious or disturbed about something to couch it in terms that are more easily fought about. Money is a convenient one. If you're in it for the long haul, a month or two of rent is small potatoes even though it seems like a big deal. And, as almostmanda says, this is likely sunk costs anyhow. Make certain when you are making the claim that this is all about the money, that it's really about the money. Many people have confused relationship problems for money problems. Good luck.
posted by jessamyn at 8:43 AM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by jessamyn at 8:43 AM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
There are a fair number of AskMes in which the OP says "Here is my situation, which causes me internal strife; how do I learn to accept it more equably and be at peace with it?", and the answerers end up rally around "The picture you've presented is not normal, many or most people would find it unacceptable, and you should consider your options for altering or ending the situation." This might turn out to be one of those.
You're proud of A for maintaining healthy boundaries (at least where her interactions with you are concerned). How are your boundaries? If you are in fact contributing to B's financial support, why? Do you feel like your relationship with A is contingent on providing this support for B? If so, ask yourself what course of action will produce a better outcome for you: "to be a more selfless and generous person," or to inform A, neutrally and non-judgementally, that you will no longer be giving financial or material support to A's ex?
It's good that you value a harmonious relationship with A, but please make sure that you are taking care of yourself first.
posted by AkzidenzGrotesk at 8:51 AM on October 14, 2010
You're proud of A for maintaining healthy boundaries (at least where her interactions with you are concerned). How are your boundaries? If you are in fact contributing to B's financial support, why? Do you feel like your relationship with A is contingent on providing this support for B? If so, ask yourself what course of action will produce a better outcome for you: "to be a more selfless and generous person," or to inform A, neutrally and non-judgementally, that you will no longer be giving financial or material support to A's ex?
It's good that you value a harmonious relationship with A, but please make sure that you are taking care of yourself first.
posted by AkzidenzGrotesk at 8:51 AM on October 14, 2010
I think about how B and her new girlfriend are sitting pretty in A's apartment, and how her abusive and selfish behaviour really paid off.
Because A let it.
I need to just let this go, and be a more selfless and generous person.
This doesn't mean you have to be anyone's doormat.
Yeah, I'd second what griphus said. There's being nice, and then there's being taken advantage of. Set that cut-off date, and hold everyone to it -- A and B -- come hell or high water.
Someone this involved in their ex's life hasn't really broken up with them. There's nothing wrong with forcing a her-or-me decision.
posted by Capt. Renault at 9:01 AM on October 14, 2010
Because A let it.
I need to just let this go, and be a more selfless and generous person.
This doesn't mean you have to be anyone's doormat.
Yeah, I'd second what griphus said. There's being nice, and then there's being taken advantage of. Set that cut-off date, and hold everyone to it -- A and B -- come hell or high water.
Someone this involved in their ex's life hasn't really broken up with them. There's nothing wrong with forcing a her-or-me decision.
posted by Capt. Renault at 9:01 AM on October 14, 2010
Yeah, I'm not sure why you're asking us for help accepting this - it seems pretty self-evidently unreasonable to me. Is this really the only part of your relationship that works this way? Because if it is, then I guess you can live with it (I wouldn't, FWIW), but I'd like to suggest taking a hard look at your dynamic with A to make sure she doesn't have a pattern of making you the one who has to accept things and making her the one who gets to make decisions.
But, either way, I think the way you're framing this is entirely too hard on you. I mean, if you want to decide that this is something you can tolerate, by all means, go ahead. But this:
I need to just let this go, and be a more selfless and generous person
is just putting way too much pressure on yourself. A's concessions to B are not normal or reasonable. As I said - you can go ahead and put up with them, but the fact that it causes you distress does not in any way make you selfish or ungenerous. It just makes you rational. So give yourself a break.
posted by Ragged Richard at 9:01 AM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
But, either way, I think the way you're framing this is entirely too hard on you. I mean, if you want to decide that this is something you can tolerate, by all means, go ahead. But this:
I need to just let this go, and be a more selfless and generous person
is just putting way too much pressure on yourself. A's concessions to B are not normal or reasonable. As I said - you can go ahead and put up with them, but the fact that it causes you distress does not in any way make you selfish or ungenerous. It just makes you rational. So give yourself a break.
posted by Ragged Richard at 9:01 AM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
It's six or seven more weeks. Hold your girlfriend to the promise she made to B-yatch, and when the time comes to cut things off there, accept no excuses.
posted by hermitosis at 9:02 AM on October 14, 2010
posted by hermitosis at 9:02 AM on October 14, 2010
A is codependent, B is manipulative, and U need to DTMFA.
posted by elsietheeel at 9:03 AM on October 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by elsietheeel at 9:03 AM on October 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: A few points to clarify: I am not directly involved with financially supporting B. A pays for one apartment plus utilities, I pay for one apartment plus utilities. A and I both live in the second. If A weren't supporting B we could split costs, greatly reducing both of our expenses, and if I wasn't involved with A I would have continued to share an apartment with roommates, which would mean my expenses were still reduced. However, I made the decision to live alone, so I can't (and don't want to) blame that on A.
Part of it is the money, but the bigger part is, yes, that I feel like A still has loyalty to B, and whether selfish or not, I want all her loyalty to be to me.
If I made an ultimatum to A, I firmly believe that she would choose me over B. But it would put her in a very emotionally difficult situation and I wouldn't be surprised if she then resented me for that. It seems backwards to make this harder for her when I'm angry because she's making things so hard for herself (and, granted, me.)
I suppose part of my internal struggle is that I can't decide whether this is reasonable or not. But, since it will be over in a matter of months, the practical thing to do is go along with A. I have no doubt that any contact with B will be truly over once we move.
posted by ohsnapdragon at 9:09 AM on October 14, 2010
Part of it is the money, but the bigger part is, yes, that I feel like A still has loyalty to B, and whether selfish or not, I want all her loyalty to be to me.
If I made an ultimatum to A, I firmly believe that she would choose me over B. But it would put her in a very emotionally difficult situation and I wouldn't be surprised if she then resented me for that. It seems backwards to make this harder for her when I'm angry because she's making things so hard for herself (and, granted, me.)
I suppose part of my internal struggle is that I can't decide whether this is reasonable or not. But, since it will be over in a matter of months, the practical thing to do is go along with A. I have no doubt that any contact with B will be truly over once we move.
posted by ohsnapdragon at 9:09 AM on October 14, 2010
Best answer: I'm glad there's an end in sight, but I keep thinking about how every month our expenses are double what they should be, and how much money we are wasting that we could be saving for our new life (I'm going back to school, so our income will be significantly reduced.)
Pretty much everyone would agree with you that this is a stupid way for her to spend her money, but it's still her money and there's not much you can do. Make sure you have a completely solid agreement with A that B is never going to receive another penny after December, because I guarantee B is going to try to guilt A into giving her more money after you move if she has any means of contacting her at all.
I keep thinking about how when we move, I will be sitting alone in our apartment while A and her family move her stuff out of her old apartment, since I am not allowed there.
Do you really want to be there with B around anyway? Throw yourself a party the day A moves out and be glad that this drama-filled situation is over.
I think about how B and her new girlfriend are sitting pretty in A's apartment, and how her abusive and selfish behaviour really paid off.
At the end of the day, B is a terrible person who can't support herself and you are a good person in a great relationship with someone you love. Looks like you're the one who's better off, right?
posted by burnmp3s at 9:10 AM on October 14, 2010
Pretty much everyone would agree with you that this is a stupid way for her to spend her money, but it's still her money and there's not much you can do. Make sure you have a completely solid agreement with A that B is never going to receive another penny after December, because I guarantee B is going to try to guilt A into giving her more money after you move if she has any means of contacting her at all.
I keep thinking about how when we move, I will be sitting alone in our apartment while A and her family move her stuff out of her old apartment, since I am not allowed there.
Do you really want to be there with B around anyway? Throw yourself a party the day A moves out and be glad that this drama-filled situation is over.
I think about how B and her new girlfriend are sitting pretty in A's apartment, and how her abusive and selfish behaviour really paid off.
At the end of the day, B is a terrible person who can't support herself and you are a good person in a great relationship with someone you love. Looks like you're the one who's better off, right?
posted by burnmp3s at 9:10 AM on October 14, 2010
A pays for one apartment plus utilities, I pay for one apartment plus utilities. A and I both live in the second.
If it helps, this is pretty much Status Quo for pre-moving-in-together relationships. One person has a nicer apartment (or whatever) and 95% of the time is spent there even though both people keep up their own separate spaces. My best friend's boyfriend slept there every night before he moved in with her. This went on for at least a year. I don't remember the last time I saw my girlfriend's roommate inside the apartment. Considering leases and all that, you can feel comfortable that at least this part is absolutely ordinary.
I suppose part of my internal struggle is that I can't decide whether this is reasonable or not.
That's not your call. What if she wanted to quit her job and join the circus? Not too reasonable, but you're the S.O. and if the choice is made, you're there for support.
I have no doubt that any contact with B will be truly over once we move.
That trust is the most important thing you can develop, and as you already did, the hard work is pretty much over. Just grin and bear it 'til then.
posted by griphus at 9:21 AM on October 14, 2010
If it helps, this is pretty much Status Quo for pre-moving-in-together relationships. One person has a nicer apartment (or whatever) and 95% of the time is spent there even though both people keep up their own separate spaces. My best friend's boyfriend slept there every night before he moved in with her. This went on for at least a year. I don't remember the last time I saw my girlfriend's roommate inside the apartment. Considering leases and all that, you can feel comfortable that at least this part is absolutely ordinary.
I suppose part of my internal struggle is that I can't decide whether this is reasonable or not.
That's not your call. What if she wanted to quit her job and join the circus? Not too reasonable, but you're the S.O. and if the choice is made, you're there for support.
I have no doubt that any contact with B will be truly over once we move.
That trust is the most important thing you can develop, and as you already did, the hard work is pretty much over. Just grin and bear it 'til then.
posted by griphus at 9:21 AM on October 14, 2010
If I made an ultimatum to A, I firmly believe that she would choose me over B. But it would put her in a very emotionally difficult situation and I wouldn't be surprised if she then resented me for that.
This is your red flag. She would be the unreasonable one, not you. At some point, the past should be past, and that's it. No more of this divided loyalty bullshit.
Why should this at all be a very emotionally difficult decision?
posted by Capt. Renault at 9:26 AM on October 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
This is your red flag. She would be the unreasonable one, not you. At some point, the past should be past, and that's it. No more of this divided loyalty bullshit.
Why should this at all be a very emotionally difficult decision?
posted by Capt. Renault at 9:26 AM on October 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
It seems backwards to make this harder for her when I'm angry because she's making things so hard for herself (and, granted, me.)
But her making things so hard for herself is hard on you, in this case. I think you're exactly right to see this situation as her prioritizing B (and her own perceived obligations to B) over you. She's prioritizing her own guilt and weakness towards B over her relationship with you, and that's selfish, not good. She needs to make a choice between the two of you. However, it seems like she already has made her choice -- she's cutting B off in December. Give her the chance to live up to her word.
And by the way, this IS directly impacting you financially. Even if A isn't spending your money directly, every dollar she spends on B is a dollar she's not contributing to your own joint household, that she would otherwise be contributing.
posted by yarly at 9:30 AM on October 14, 2010
But her making things so hard for herself is hard on you, in this case. I think you're exactly right to see this situation as her prioritizing B (and her own perceived obligations to B) over you. She's prioritizing her own guilt and weakness towards B over her relationship with you, and that's selfish, not good. She needs to make a choice between the two of you. However, it seems like she already has made her choice -- she's cutting B off in December. Give her the chance to live up to her word.
And by the way, this IS directly impacting you financially. Even if A isn't spending your money directly, every dollar she spends on B is a dollar she's not contributing to your own joint household, that she would otherwise be contributing.
posted by yarly at 9:30 AM on October 14, 2010
I am not directly involved with financially supporting B. A pays for one apartment plus utilities, I pay for one apartment plus utilities. A and I both live in the second. If A weren't supporting B we could split costs, greatly reducing both of our expenses...
At this point, arguing over the term "directly" is hair-splitting. You are supporting B.
posted by AkzidenzGrotesk at 9:35 AM on October 14, 2010 [3 favorites]
At this point, arguing over the term "directly" is hair-splitting. You are supporting B.
posted by AkzidenzGrotesk at 9:35 AM on October 14, 2010 [3 favorites]
ohsnapdragon: Part of it is the money, but the bigger part is, yes, that I feel like A still has loyalty to B, and whether selfish or not, I want all her loyalty to be to me.
This is something of an aside, but presumably there are other people in A's life that she is close to (and who are not B)? Having an expectation that ALL of A's loyalty will be to you is not really reasonable or healthy. I've been with my husband for 16 years, we are really close, but we also have family and other close friends outside our marriage. I get what you're feeling about A's relationship with B, and I think your feelings are justified, but expecting A to make you the sole center of her universe at any point is moving toward another unhealthy relationship dynamic.
posted by dryad at 9:35 AM on October 14, 2010
This is something of an aside, but presumably there are other people in A's life that she is close to (and who are not B)? Having an expectation that ALL of A's loyalty will be to you is not really reasonable or healthy. I've been with my husband for 16 years, we are really close, but we also have family and other close friends outside our marriage. I get what you're feeling about A's relationship with B, and I think your feelings are justified, but expecting A to make you the sole center of her universe at any point is moving toward another unhealthy relationship dynamic.
posted by dryad at 9:35 AM on October 14, 2010
Best answer: Okay, Secret Girlfriend, real talk from a stranger time.
You are using, I think, inapplicable language here. You're talking about resentment and acceptance and a mishmash of 12-step stuff, which is fine. Except there's no addiction present, unless we're diagnosing your girlfriend's codependence, which, I have never met her, so, ain't gonna.
It's not "resentment" that you're feeling. It's anger. Anger is a feeling. That's because you're pissed off about this. And you don't "need to let go of your anger." You'll be done feeling angry when your anger is spent and situations don't make you angry.
I realize you're carefully trying to analyze boundaries here, and that they're confusing, and it's hard to know what's "okay" to feel. It has indeed been made messy. (It didn't "end up" messy, by the way. The people involved actively made things messy.) But it's okay to feel angry and that you've been sucked into someone else's boundarylessness. You have! And your anger will pass.
The good news is you've said your piece, and the situation is wrapping up. I'm pretty sure the answer isn't "more selflessness" on your part. You're mad still! So go to your room and throw some pillows and talk out loud about how mad you are and sooner or later you'll be done expressing it. But it's not going to go away by not experiencing the anger over this (in my opinion) sort of shady undermining and mild betrayal.
posted by RJ Reynolds at 9:41 AM on October 14, 2010 [8 favorites]
You are using, I think, inapplicable language here. You're talking about resentment and acceptance and a mishmash of 12-step stuff, which is fine. Except there's no addiction present, unless we're diagnosing your girlfriend's codependence, which, I have never met her, so, ain't gonna.
It's not "resentment" that you're feeling. It's anger. Anger is a feeling. That's because you're pissed off about this. And you don't "need to let go of your anger." You'll be done feeling angry when your anger is spent and situations don't make you angry.
I realize you're carefully trying to analyze boundaries here, and that they're confusing, and it's hard to know what's "okay" to feel. It has indeed been made messy. (It didn't "end up" messy, by the way. The people involved actively made things messy.) But it's okay to feel angry and that you've been sucked into someone else's boundarylessness. You have! And your anger will pass.
The good news is you've said your piece, and the situation is wrapping up. I'm pretty sure the answer isn't "more selflessness" on your part. You're mad still! So go to your room and throw some pillows and talk out loud about how mad you are and sooner or later you'll be done expressing it. But it's not going to go away by not experiencing the anger over this (in my opinion) sort of shady undermining and mild betrayal.
posted by RJ Reynolds at 9:41 AM on October 14, 2010 [8 favorites]
This situation is couched in very loyal, romantic terms - but I would have great trouble trusting A into the future because her decisions and values seem particularly warped.
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That said, I did something similar to what A has done with my own exceptionally toxic and emotionally abusive ex about 3 or 4 years ago.
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A Friend owned several apartment buildings and we were running them together, the ex needed an apartment and couldn't get approved anywhere else... I'll never forget the conversation my Friend and I had when we were trying to decide if the favor was worth it. Friend said the decision was mine and he supported me 100%, whatever I decided. And then I threw us both under a bus (just a tiny bit) and decided to lease a vacant apartment to the fucked-up ex.
Friend and I both knew the favor would end badly, that the ex would likely tear the joint up and leave owing heaps (he eventually did.) BUT, I had been previously unable to get free of this person, like, for years. Friend knew this. In some weird way, bringing the ex close, giving him responsibility and letting him royally screw it up was almost required to break me out of this person's grasp. This was the unspoken plan as we decided to rent apartment to ex.
(In my mind, I also vowed to cover any expenses ex incurred. Luckily, the rental deposit covered most of the damage in the end, and Friend wouldn't accept the outstanding $500 the ex owed from me. Friend rocked. Still does:)
During ex's tenancy I met Mr.Jbenben and eventually had nothing more to do with Friend's properties. Ex finally moved out maybe a year after I got married. My friend is still my dear sweet friend. This is almost the end.
I recently posted a question about how to block a stalker from calling or texting my iPhone. Yep. Crazy ex. And I haven't responded to this person in 2+ years... but every few months he rings or texts anyway. Just to say "hi." It's creepy.
We assume he does it because I was an easy mark for this expert manipulator for years. Maybe this ex thinks one day he'll try at the right time and I'll be weak and open the door back up, or I'll be in a fight with my husband and I'll want a revenge affair... who knows? Thankfully, it's been quiet for me since I posted that question. My "spidey sense" hasn't been tinglinging lately, too. Maybe 2+ years of absolute silence has finally paid off for me and my family? Let's hope so!
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What I am saying to you is that B found your girlfriend to be exceptionally open and pliant to her manipulations. There is no reason to expect that when B gets into trouble in the future, she won't reappear in A's life.
A, your girlfriend, needs to understand that her previous poor choices have consequences into the future - for both of you. She needs to demonstrate that she has both your asses covered from here on out. She needs to show she has her priorities straight.
A needs a plan. Hopefully, her plan will include never ever responding to B ever again.
One thing that helped me was not hiding the times when ex popped up from Mr. Jbenben (even though I was adhering to the "no response" policy.) I saw each of those times specifically as an opportunity to shut the door on my toxic ex by telling my husband and not keeping secrets. I knew keeping the contact a secret (even if all I did was delete the text) would be trouble for me down the road. Toxic manipulative people work in the dark. I provided the situation with tons of LIGHT.
Your girlfriend needs to do the same with you if she is to mature beyond this terrible situation she created for herself. She needs to demonstrate that she created it, and she can stop it.
Mr. Jbenben and I managed this in the beginning, when the stalking was much much worse, by always keeping the focus on us and how happy we are. We keep our eye on the ball - US.
You and your girlfriend should be doing same, or you will need to move on from the whole drama. Your girlfriend has to be willing to admit that she's been manipulated and that it effects both or you, not just her. If she can't own her decisions and the resulting consequences that have effected both of you, then she will not be a good partner for you into the future.
Good Luck.
Also, where the fuck is A's family in all of this? Why are they letting their daughter be taken advantage of in this way?? I didn't have any family to speak of when I first met my ex, so that explains me. But A's family must be in the picture if they are helping her move?? Hmm...
posted by jbenben at 10:03 AM on October 14, 2010 [14 favorites]
------------
That said, I did something similar to what A has done with my own exceptionally toxic and emotionally abusive ex about 3 or 4 years ago.
------------
A Friend owned several apartment buildings and we were running them together, the ex needed an apartment and couldn't get approved anywhere else... I'll never forget the conversation my Friend and I had when we were trying to decide if the favor was worth it. Friend said the decision was mine and he supported me 100%, whatever I decided. And then I threw us both under a bus (just a tiny bit) and decided to lease a vacant apartment to the fucked-up ex.
Friend and I both knew the favor would end badly, that the ex would likely tear the joint up and leave owing heaps (he eventually did.) BUT, I had been previously unable to get free of this person, like, for years. Friend knew this. In some weird way, bringing the ex close, giving him responsibility and letting him royally screw it up was almost required to break me out of this person's grasp. This was the unspoken plan as we decided to rent apartment to ex.
(In my mind, I also vowed to cover any expenses ex incurred. Luckily, the rental deposit covered most of the damage in the end, and Friend wouldn't accept the outstanding $500 the ex owed from me. Friend rocked. Still does:)
During ex's tenancy I met Mr.Jbenben and eventually had nothing more to do with Friend's properties. Ex finally moved out maybe a year after I got married. My friend is still my dear sweet friend. This is almost the end.
I recently posted a question about how to block a stalker from calling or texting my iPhone. Yep. Crazy ex. And I haven't responded to this person in 2+ years... but every few months he rings or texts anyway. Just to say "hi." It's creepy.
We assume he does it because I was an easy mark for this expert manipulator for years. Maybe this ex thinks one day he'll try at the right time and I'll be weak and open the door back up, or I'll be in a fight with my husband and I'll want a revenge affair... who knows? Thankfully, it's been quiet for me since I posted that question. My "spidey sense" hasn't been tinglinging lately, too. Maybe 2+ years of absolute silence has finally paid off for me and my family? Let's hope so!
-------------
-------------
What I am saying to you is that B found your girlfriend to be exceptionally open and pliant to her manipulations. There is no reason to expect that when B gets into trouble in the future, she won't reappear in A's life.
A, your girlfriend, needs to understand that her previous poor choices have consequences into the future - for both of you. She needs to demonstrate that she has both your asses covered from here on out. She needs to show she has her priorities straight.
A needs a plan. Hopefully, her plan will include never ever responding to B ever again.
One thing that helped me was not hiding the times when ex popped up from Mr. Jbenben (even though I was adhering to the "no response" policy.) I saw each of those times specifically as an opportunity to shut the door on my toxic ex by telling my husband and not keeping secrets. I knew keeping the contact a secret (even if all I did was delete the text) would be trouble for me down the road. Toxic manipulative people work in the dark. I provided the situation with tons of LIGHT.
Your girlfriend needs to do the same with you if she is to mature beyond this terrible situation she created for herself. She needs to demonstrate that she created it, and she can stop it.
Mr. Jbenben and I managed this in the beginning, when the stalking was much much worse, by always keeping the focus on us and how happy we are. We keep our eye on the ball - US.
You and your girlfriend should be doing same, or you will need to move on from the whole drama. Your girlfriend has to be willing to admit that she's been manipulated and that it effects both or you, not just her. If she can't own her decisions and the resulting consequences that have effected both of you, then she will not be a good partner for you into the future.
Good Luck.
Also, where the fuck is A's family in all of this? Why are they letting their daughter be taken advantage of in this way?? I didn't have any family to speak of when I first met my ex, so that explains me. But A's family must be in the picture if they are helping her move?? Hmm...
posted by jbenben at 10:03 AM on October 14, 2010 [14 favorites]
I think there's two things you need to do now:
1) Jump up and down with joy, because you've found someone you love who loves you, and because this situation that has caused doubt and anxiety between you is finally coming to an end.
2) Tell your girlfriend that you are on her side, always, and that you are proud of her because she has stuck by what she thinks is right. Tell her also that you need this new transition to signify that the A & B saga has reached a conclusive and unambiguous end, and it's all clear A & ohsnapdragon with no "B"-strings from here (December, precisely) on out. Tell her that when B eventually contacts her for more support (as she almost undoubtedly will) or instigates further entanglement of any kind at all, you need to know unreservedly that she won't succeed in any fashion, that you need to feel secure that B will never come between the two of you (again — but you don't need to say that) in any way. No matter what.
This is not an unreasonable request between committed partners, and if A understands that you want to lay your doubts to rest and feel fully trusting and secure, she should be totally happy to make this assurance. And if she does, you need to repeat the happy dance and commit yourself to not letting the B-past come between you and A anymore, which should be easier once you've established a trust-bond about this issue. Both of you need to agree, hearts and minds, to let B go completely and conclusively, and get on with your happy life together.
posted by taz at 11:20 AM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
1) Jump up and down with joy, because you've found someone you love who loves you, and because this situation that has caused doubt and anxiety between you is finally coming to an end.
2) Tell your girlfriend that you are on her side, always, and that you are proud of her because she has stuck by what she thinks is right. Tell her also that you need this new transition to signify that the A & B saga has reached a conclusive and unambiguous end, and it's all clear A & ohsnapdragon with no "B"-strings from here (December, precisely) on out. Tell her that when B eventually contacts her for more support (as she almost undoubtedly will) or instigates further entanglement of any kind at all, you need to know unreservedly that she won't succeed in any fashion, that you need to feel secure that B will never come between the two of you (again — but you don't need to say that) in any way. No matter what.
This is not an unreasonable request between committed partners, and if A understands that you want to lay your doubts to rest and feel fully trusting and secure, she should be totally happy to make this assurance. And if she does, you need to repeat the happy dance and commit yourself to not letting the B-past come between you and A anymore, which should be easier once you've established a trust-bond about this issue. Both of you need to agree, hearts and minds, to let B go completely and conclusively, and get on with your happy life together.
posted by taz at 11:20 AM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
When I'm infuriated with friends, I try to remember that I love them for who they are, and this facet of their personality (as well as their desire to change it) is integrally intertwined.
posted by salvia at 7:17 PM on October 14, 2010
posted by salvia at 7:17 PM on October 14, 2010
Maybe you could look at it this way - and I really hope it is this way - A is such a lovely person that, in part because A doesn't entirely see or rationalizes away all the ick that is B (and the facts in your case are more than enough for me to write B off entirely) and in part because A is a giving person, A is trying to be a good person and makes things easier for B and doesn't quite understand all the grief this gives you because after B is “has good qualities too.”
I have my doubts that B has any good qualities, but sometimes people can’t accept the fact that the fell into letting a poisonous troll lead them around by the nose and prefer to remember the fiction of alleged “good qualities.”
If the rest of A’s relationships were relatively normal, just calm yourself by counting down the days.
I'm going to guess you also resent B for treating your beloved A so badly. Keep that to yourself - for whatever reason, B's bad behavior is not part of reality with A.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 11:50 AM on October 16, 2010
I have my doubts that B has any good qualities, but sometimes people can’t accept the fact that the fell into letting a poisonous troll lead them around by the nose and prefer to remember the fiction of alleged “good qualities.”
If the rest of A’s relationships were relatively normal, just calm yourself by counting down the days.
I'm going to guess you also resent B for treating your beloved A so badly. Keep that to yourself - for whatever reason, B's bad behavior is not part of reality with A.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 11:50 AM on October 16, 2010
Response by poster: Follow-up:
After this post I did a lot of thinking and then kept my mouth shut once and for all.
The DAY of the move, B threw a fit and demanded A continue to pay rent/bills (to recap - for an apartment she hadn't lived in for several months, in a state she wasn't even going to be present in, for her ex and ex's new girl. Riiiight.) A was cordial at first but then firmly told B where to shove it, so to speak. (She showed me their lengthy exchange, which was through text.) A said she's sad it had to end like that, but that she now sees B for who she really is. She apologized for not listening to me sooner but I'm still glad A did what she felt is right and clearly took the high road over and over again in this situation. Her character is one of the things I admire about her, after all.
We have now been living in New City for about two weeks and we are very happy.
Thanks everyone for your input.
posted by ohsnapdragon at 11:13 AM on January 10, 2011
After this post I did a lot of thinking and then kept my mouth shut once and for all.
The DAY of the move, B threw a fit and demanded A continue to pay rent/bills (to recap - for an apartment she hadn't lived in for several months, in a state she wasn't even going to be present in, for her ex and ex's new girl. Riiiight.) A was cordial at first but then firmly told B where to shove it, so to speak. (She showed me their lengthy exchange, which was through text.) A said she's sad it had to end like that, but that she now sees B for who she really is. She apologized for not listening to me sooner but I'm still glad A did what she felt is right and clearly took the high road over and over again in this situation. Her character is one of the things I admire about her, after all.
We have now been living in New City for about two weeks and we are very happy.
Thanks everyone for your input.
posted by ohsnapdragon at 11:13 AM on January 10, 2011
This thread is closed to new comments.
Now, A is right -- you can't tell her what to do. She's an adult and she will spend her money how she pleases, even if flushing it down the toilet would be more prudent than what she's doing. Bear it out until it stops. If it continues past A's cut-off date, you're going to have an Important Conversation with her. There's no way you should be dating someone who is continually engaged in this sort of behavior. Otherwise, consider it an investment in getting B out of your lives forever.
Something bothers me however:
...but I keep thinking about how every month our expenses are double what they should be...
I hope to hell that this is relationship-phrasing and you, personally, are in no possible way supporting B.
posted by griphus at 8:28 AM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]