How do you pronounce "Christian Slater"?
October 2, 2010 10:05 PM Subscribe
Is the prononciation of Christian Slater an example of a cross between a hard "t" sound and a "d" sound in North American English in words such as "water"?
I have noticed on many occasions that my British friends continue to pronounce a hard t on latter syllables whereas in Canada this is largely pronounced as a soft "d" sound. Some examples are: data, fighter, brighter.
However, the name "Slater" seems to be in the middle ground. I definitely wouldn't say "SlayDer" and "SlayTer" sounds too forced. Have phoneticists described this middle "d" sound? I don't know the term for chewing the "t" letter.
The best way I can describe it is almost a gap in sound between the syllables like in the East End when they remove the T completely (but in this case, there's definitely a bit of the T left in the final prononciation).
I have noticed on many occasions that my British friends continue to pronounce a hard t on latter syllables whereas in Canada this is largely pronounced as a soft "d" sound. Some examples are: data, fighter, brighter.
However, the name "Slater" seems to be in the middle ground. I definitely wouldn't say "SlayDer" and "SlayTer" sounds too forced. Have phoneticists described this middle "d" sound? I don't know the term for chewing the "t" letter.
The best way I can describe it is almost a gap in sound between the syllables like in the East End when they remove the T completely (but in this case, there's definitely a bit of the T left in the final prononciation).
It's a tap, or flap, in this case an alveolar one.
posted by redfoxtail at 10:14 PM on October 2, 2010 [5 favorites]
posted by redfoxtail at 10:14 PM on October 2, 2010 [5 favorites]
i really don't think "slater" leans much toward a "d" sound. it's at least, like, 80% "slaTer".
posted by defmute at 10:24 PM on October 2, 2010
posted by defmute at 10:24 PM on October 2, 2010
I would pronounce the hypothetical name "Slader" the exact same way I pronounce "Slater" and I am American.
posted by escabeche at 10:29 PM on October 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by escabeche at 10:29 PM on October 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
Slayed and Slayed-er, definitely. No middle ground about it, IMO. (I'm Canadian, though...)
Now, what you're talking about with the dropped T -- in the US that's mostly prevalent in Brooklyn and the Bronx. Think Rosie Perez, Tracy Morgan, the Beastie Boys, etc.
As for "middle d" -- I have no idea what you are referring to. Could it just be the interaction of the (North American) t/d and the (North American) r? That's a simple [ɾ] flap. (What redfoxtail said.)
posted by Sys Rq at 10:38 PM on October 2, 2010
Now, what you're talking about with the dropped T -- in the US that's mostly prevalent in Brooklyn and the Bronx. Think Rosie Perez, Tracy Morgan, the Beastie Boys, etc.
As for "middle d" -- I have no idea what you are referring to. Could it just be the interaction of the (North American) t/d and the (North American) r? That's a simple [ɾ] flap. (What redfoxtail said.)
posted by Sys Rq at 10:38 PM on October 2, 2010
In American English, it's a flap, so it rhymes with alligator or Darth Vader. In British* English, alligator does not rhyme with Darth Vader, because they pronounce the t as a t.
(I also use a flap for the medial consonant in "British")
posted by aubilenon at 10:43 PM on October 2, 2010
(I also use a flap for the medial consonant in "British")
posted by aubilenon at 10:43 PM on October 2, 2010
redfoxtail is right. I pronounce it with an alveolar flap, and I bet almost all Americans do.
posted by SuperNova at 10:59 PM on October 2, 2010
posted by SuperNova at 10:59 PM on October 2, 2010
Response by poster: So let's be super clear about this as the wiki entry only lists one alveolar flap for North Americans, but there is definitely a sonic difference between "Slater" and "waiter".
"Slater" comes out as "slay...ter"
"waiter" as "way...der"
The "t" in "Slater" is not a hard "t" but it's definitely not a "d" either". Do phoneticians distinguish between these two alveolar flaps?
posted by fantasticninety at 11:19 PM on October 2, 2010
"Slater" comes out as "slay...ter"
"waiter" as "way...der"
The "t" in "Slater" is not a hard "t" but it's definitely not a "d" either". Do phoneticians distinguish between these two alveolar flaps?
posted by fantasticninety at 11:19 PM on October 2, 2010
here is definitely a sonic difference between "Slater" and "waiter"
*shrugs*
Nope. Not here, there ain't, 'ceptin' the Sl- and the w-. Where are you from, anyhow?
posted by Sys Rq at 11:27 PM on October 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
*shrugs*
Nope. Not here, there ain't, 'ceptin' the Sl- and the w-. Where are you from, anyhow?
posted by Sys Rq at 11:27 PM on October 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
Phonetically the difference between t and d is vocing. There's really no in-between setting. (There's something called voice onset time, but I very much doubt it's going to be involved in the middle of a word.)
Beginning a word, an Engish t is pronounced with aspiration-- a puff of breath. This wouldn't happen medially, so that may what you're hearing: an unaspirated t.
Hard to say what else is going on without hearing a sample!
posted by zompist at 11:49 PM on October 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
Beginning a word, an Engish t is pronounced with aspiration-- a puff of breath. This wouldn't happen medially, so that may what you're hearing: an unaspirated t.
Hard to say what else is going on without hearing a sample!
posted by zompist at 11:49 PM on October 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Here is the clip that made me think of my prononciation.
Sys Rq, I'm from Atlantic Canada, and I definitely pronounce "waiter" with a heavier "d" sound than in this clip.
posted by fantasticninety at 12:11 AM on October 3, 2010
Sys Rq, I'm from Atlantic Canada, and I definitely pronounce "waiter" with a heavier "d" sound than in this clip.
posted by fantasticninety at 12:11 AM on October 3, 2010
"Atlantic Canada" encompasses several broad accents. (I lived in Hali for 15 years; I'm no stranger to them.) A Newf or a Caper might indeed aspirate a bit on that t, for sure.
If you pronounce the last word in the previous sentence as shore, you may well be afflicted.
(I'm only hearing d's in that clip, though.)
posted by Sys Rq at 12:30 AM on October 3, 2010
If you pronounce the last word in the previous sentence as shore, you may well be afflicted.
(I'm only hearing d's in that clip, though.)
posted by Sys Rq at 12:30 AM on October 3, 2010
Both instances there sound to me like a flapped d, phonetically [ɾ]. (In a flap, the tongue kind of brushes quickly against the alveolar ridge. It's actually an r in many languages.)
A proper [d] should stop the airflow a moment, exactly like a t, but with the vocal cords vibrating. And a [t] will stop the airflow and the vocal cords.
posted by zompist at 12:41 AM on October 3, 2010
A proper [d] should stop the airflow a moment, exactly like a t, but with the vocal cords vibrating. And a [t] will stop the airflow and the vocal cords.
posted by zompist at 12:41 AM on October 3, 2010
Response by poster: Ok, I've pronounced it in slow motion in my mouth the last couple of minutes and when I say "Slater" the bottom of my tongue flings up slightly as a ricochet before going back down whereas when I say "later" the bottom of my tongue goes straight down against the back of my front teeth immediately towards my bottom teeth. With "Slater" it definitely pops for a millisecond before going back down.
It sounds exactly the same as the one in the clip.
I prononce it "sure" and not "shore" for the record.
posted by fantasticninety at 12:59 AM on October 3, 2010
It sounds exactly the same as the one in the clip.
I prononce it "sure" and not "shore" for the record.
posted by fantasticninety at 12:59 AM on October 3, 2010
In my version of American English anyway (I'm from Virginia), T and D are pronounced as flaps in the middle of words like "water," "little" and "middle," but this is not true of words that end in T or D sounds that have suffixes like -ing or -er added to them. So "bitter," "bidder" and "sitter" (as in baby-sitter) don't rhyme: "bitter" has a flap, "bidder" has a real D, and "sitter" has a real T. The name Slater sounds like an occupation name, someone who slates, so I'm inclined to pronounce it to rhyme "waiter," that is, with a real T.
Obviously, from reading the comments above, there's variation. Part of the problem might be that we don't all pronounce it the same way. It partly depends on whether you take the name Slater as a chunk, or analyse it as 'slate+er,' and whether your dialect makes that distinction. (Not to mention that if you know somebody named Slater, you'll probably follow their pronunciation.)
posted by nangar at 4:33 AM on October 3, 2010
Obviously, from reading the comments above, there's variation. Part of the problem might be that we don't all pronounce it the same way. It partly depends on whether you take the name Slater as a chunk, or analyse it as 'slate+er,' and whether your dialect makes that distinction. (Not to mention that if you know somebody named Slater, you'll probably follow their pronunciation.)
posted by nangar at 4:33 AM on October 3, 2010
Note: I pronounce "later" with a flap if it means in the future ("See you later!") but with a T (sometimes jokingly, with emphasis) if it's actually the comparative of "late" (not on time) - "Bill was late, but Bob was late-er."
posted by nangar at 4:54 AM on October 3, 2010
posted by nangar at 4:54 AM on October 3, 2010
New Yorker (sans strong New York accent) and quasi-linguist here -- redfoxtail is right, this is an alveolar flap (though what will be heard as the "same" sound can be articulated anywhere from right behind the front teeth to way back behind the hard palate). I pronounce "Slater," "waiter," and "later" all with more or less the same flap for the "t," although I'm pretty sure I articulate the flap slightly further back in the word "later," which I find kind of interesting.
I'm attempting to replicate the motions you're describing for your pronunciation and I can't quite understand what you're describing and how it yields the given phonetic results. After I articulate the alveolar flap, my tongue immediately goes backwards and forms a "cup" for the /er/ part of the word -- it doesn't go back down to a resting position.
By the way, the "gap in sound" you're describing among East Enders is actually a glottal stop, and you can find it in the way most Americans pronounce the word "button." (This is also a good example of why you can't get very accurate information asking laypeople how they pronounce things, because people will swear to you that they're pronouncing a "t" there and won't believe you when you tell them it's actually their throat quickly closing off the airflow.)
posted by pluckemin at 7:41 AM on October 3, 2010
I'm attempting to replicate the motions you're describing for your pronunciation and I can't quite understand what you're describing and how it yields the given phonetic results. After I articulate the alveolar flap, my tongue immediately goes backwards and forms a "cup" for the /er/ part of the word -- it doesn't go back down to a resting position.
By the way, the "gap in sound" you're describing among East Enders is actually a glottal stop, and you can find it in the way most Americans pronounce the word "button." (This is also a good example of why you can't get very accurate information asking laypeople how they pronounce things, because people will swear to you that they're pronouncing a "t" there and won't believe you when you tell them it's actually their throat quickly closing off the airflow.)
posted by pluckemin at 7:41 AM on October 3, 2010
There are a bunch of differences here, varying by dialect. First, there is voicing and aspiration. If a T is unaspirated and voiced, it essentially becomes a soft D. This is the sound I would use in pronouncing "Slater." T can also be pronounced as a glottal stop, such as the T in "cat" in American English. This is unlike a D.
posted by Nothing at 7:50 AM on October 3, 2010
posted by Nothing at 7:50 AM on October 3, 2010
Phonetically the difference between t and d is vocing. There's really no in-between setting. (There's something called voice onset time, but I very much doubt it's going to be involved in the middle of a word.)
Sure there is, there's a voicing continuum which spans the different VOTs.
posted by snownoid at 8:18 AM on October 3, 2010
Sure there is, there's a voicing continuum which spans the different VOTs.
posted by snownoid at 8:18 AM on October 3, 2010
It doesn't matter what "the rules" are, because it is a name and those get intentionally or unintentionally mangled all the time.
To wit: if I never heard it pronounced before, I would automatically say it should be SLAY - ter. But I've mostly always heard it pronounced SLAY - dur, so that's how I would say it. Because rules don't necessarily apply to names. If someone named Toews introduces himself as "Toos", that's how you say his name, no matter what the rules say.
Counter proposal: like the button or butter examples above, most people would say "budder", "but-in" or "bu , in", but if you asked them, they would claim they are saying the T right. But if you told them to say it slowly and correctly, many would say it right. There is a difference between dialect and laziness.
posted by gjc at 8:25 AM on October 3, 2010
To wit: if I never heard it pronounced before, I would automatically say it should be SLAY - ter. But I've mostly always heard it pronounced SLAY - dur, so that's how I would say it. Because rules don't necessarily apply to names. If someone named Toews introduces himself as "Toos", that's how you say his name, no matter what the rules say.
Counter proposal: like the button or butter examples above, most people would say "budder", "but-in" or "bu , in", but if you asked them, they would claim they are saying the T right. But if you told them to say it slowly and correctly, many would say it right. There is a difference between dialect and laziness.
posted by gjc at 8:25 AM on October 3, 2010
Also, there is the /KRIS tee in/ versus /KRIS chen/ debate.
posted by gjc at 8:28 AM on October 3, 2010
posted by gjc at 8:28 AM on October 3, 2010
Best answer: Like the OP, I have a pronunciation of Slater (and greater) that is distinct from the pronunciation of waiter (although it's only an alternate pronunciation for me). I think what the OP is hearing is exactly what zompist suggests above:
't' in Slater = unaspirated [t]
't' in waiter = alveolar flap
This makes the 't' in Slater seem more t-like than the t in waiter, but not quite a 'normal t' since it lacks the aspiration found at the beginning of words like take, trouble, etc.
posted by deeparch at 8:51 AM on October 3, 2010
't' in Slater = unaspirated [t]
't' in waiter = alveolar flap
This makes the 't' in Slater seem more t-like than the t in waiter, but not quite a 'normal t' since it lacks the aspiration found at the beginning of words like take, trouble, etc.
posted by deeparch at 8:51 AM on October 3, 2010
To make things more confusing, some dialects of American English elongate vowels slightly before voiced stops and fricatives in accented syllables if the consonant closes the syllable. This is especially noticeable in monosyllables with short vowels - "bed" is longer than "bet," even though the short E is the same sound in both words.
So if you're comparing "grater," "greater" and "grader," the T in "greater" might sound very much not like the D in "grader" because you're preserving the elongation of the A in "grader," even if both are flaps, or one's a flap and the other's a voiced stop. And "greater" and "grater" can sound more similar, or identical, because the A isn't elongated in these words. Of course, some people pronounce all three of them the same.
The pdf null14 linked to is a pretty good short summary of T and D flapping in American English. It breaks it down into types of words where this can occur. Obviously not everyone does it for all types of words.
posted by nangar at 10:48 AM on October 3, 2010
So if you're comparing "grater," "greater" and "grader," the T in "greater" might sound very much not like the D in "grader" because you're preserving the elongation of the A in "grader," even if both are flaps, or one's a flap and the other's a voiced stop. And "greater" and "grater" can sound more similar, or identical, because the A isn't elongated in these words. Of course, some people pronounce all three of them the same.
The pdf null14 linked to is a pretty good short summary of T and D flapping in American English. It breaks it down into types of words where this can occur. Obviously not everyone does it for all types of words.
posted by nangar at 10:48 AM on October 3, 2010
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posted by dfriedman at 10:08 PM on October 2, 2010