Rebelling Sucks
September 30, 2010 12:34 AM Subscribe
What advice would you give my friend to make him feel better during his (long overdue) rebellious phase against his overbearing mother? He's in his early 20s, from a Chinese-American family, and has made up his mind to stay home for financial reasons.
Help me help my friend besides telling him to move out. He has decided to live frugal to avoid debt, especially student loan debt.
He's from a Chinese-American family with the typical overprotective mother. She rarely allows him to go out mainly due to paranoia, and deemed his girlfriend a bad influence and a party girl because she took him to Disneyland, where people die riding roller coasters.
Recently, he argued with his mother about not requiring her permission to do anything, and a big argument ensued. He's feeling pretty crappy about it right now because it's his first time rebelling against her. What advice would you give him to make his rebellious phase a little more pleasant?
Help me help my friend besides telling him to move out. He has decided to live frugal to avoid debt, especially student loan debt.
He's from a Chinese-American family with the typical overprotective mother. She rarely allows him to go out mainly due to paranoia, and deemed his girlfriend a bad influence and a party girl because she took him to Disneyland, where people die riding roller coasters.
Recently, he argued with his mother about not requiring her permission to do anything, and a big argument ensued. He's feeling pretty crappy about it right now because it's his first time rebelling against her. What advice would you give him to make his rebellious phase a little more pleasant?
You've made an awful lot of assumptions in your question and I doubt you'll get much in the way of substantive advice here. If your friend's priority is to live frugally then he will have to accept the restrictions of his mother's home. Aside from moving out, his only other option is to negotiate an agreement with his mother that reframes the expectations of their relationship. Hint: this will not happen if he is acting "rebellious".
posted by quadog at 1:17 AM on September 30, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by quadog at 1:17 AM on September 30, 2010 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: My question is not full of assumptions. I had spoken to him about it and asked his permission to post this. He says it's not bad enough to move out at the moment, but it's certainly an option if things get too unbearable.
quadog: Great advice... I'll pass it on.
Also, prettypretty is right that moving out is only the first step. There will be more arguments because she doesn't think he has the capability to take care of himself.
Thanks everyone for helping him out. Personal experiences would be welcomed too!
posted by squirtle at 1:40 AM on September 30, 2010
quadog: Great advice... I'll pass it on.
Also, prettypretty is right that moving out is only the first step. There will be more arguments because she doesn't think he has the capability to take care of himself.
Thanks everyone for helping him out. Personal experiences would be welcomed too!
posted by squirtle at 1:40 AM on September 30, 2010
Hi, you're talking about my Mom.
The logical conclusion to your friend's current course of action is his mother ultimately running his household, including future wife and future kid.
Unreasonable parents bank (and hope) on the fact that their children will never be quite financially or emotionally independent enough from them to call them on their behavior and really break free. Your friend needs to suck it up and move out. He needs to stop taking money from them. He needs to cut them off emotionally. No amount of negotiation or reasoning or gradual half measures will accomplish what he wants. Believe me, I've tried.
The core principle here is people who do not want to see their child as an independent being must be shown that they are. Explicitly and repeatedly. In healthy families, this process is more gradual and actually encouraged by the parents. In families like your friend's, or mine, the child absolutely must steward this process on his own, otherwise you wind up with kids who act out in their early 30s after quitting the careers their dominating parents picked out for them (see: my cousins).
To answer the original question: there is nothing he can do to make the process more pleasant.
Cary Tennis, over at Salon, addressed a similar question recently here. And I quote:
Basically, weird and inhuman and mean as it sounds, and I don't mean for you to be cruel, but stop treating your mother like a human being. Treat her like the hazard she has become.
Yes, it's going to suck. No, it won't be easy. I freely admit that I only really committed to this fully when I saw that I had a choice between continued drama with my mother or actually being the father I wanted to be to my new son - that was at 33 and after a decade of putting up with my mother's crap. From where I stand, your friend has an opportunity to save himself A LOT of time.
posted by NoRelationToLea at 2:01 AM on September 30, 2010 [14 favorites]
The logical conclusion to your friend's current course of action is his mother ultimately running his household, including future wife and future kid.
Unreasonable parents bank (and hope) on the fact that their children will never be quite financially or emotionally independent enough from them to call them on their behavior and really break free. Your friend needs to suck it up and move out. He needs to stop taking money from them. He needs to cut them off emotionally. No amount of negotiation or reasoning or gradual half measures will accomplish what he wants. Believe me, I've tried.
The core principle here is people who do not want to see their child as an independent being must be shown that they are. Explicitly and repeatedly. In healthy families, this process is more gradual and actually encouraged by the parents. In families like your friend's, or mine, the child absolutely must steward this process on his own, otherwise you wind up with kids who act out in their early 30s after quitting the careers their dominating parents picked out for them (see: my cousins).
To answer the original question: there is nothing he can do to make the process more pleasant.
Cary Tennis, over at Salon, addressed a similar question recently here. And I quote:
Basically, weird and inhuman and mean as it sounds, and I don't mean for you to be cruel, but stop treating your mother like a human being. Treat her like the hazard she has become.
Yes, it's going to suck. No, it won't be easy. I freely admit that I only really committed to this fully when I saw that I had a choice between continued drama with my mother or actually being the father I wanted to be to my new son - that was at 33 and after a decade of putting up with my mother's crap. From where I stand, your friend has an opportunity to save himself A LOT of time.
posted by NoRelationToLea at 2:01 AM on September 30, 2010 [14 favorites]
Stay out of the house as much as possible. Go running, stay at the girlfriend's place, go to friend's houses, go to the library, work overtime and save up to move out.
Help out around the house. Seriously. At least this worked for me with an overprotective asian mother. She can't yell at me if I wash the dishes and do the laundry and vacuum. Particularly doing his own laundry, there's a certain time your mom has to stop folding your underpants. Early twenties is the time. Think of it as preparing himself for moving out and possibly living with a roommate. Also, shows his mom that yeah, he can take care of himself.
It may also help if he had a typical routine if that's at all convenient for him. Leave by a certain time in the morning, don't come back until a certain time. It's less confrontation than going in and out.
posted by like_neon at 2:19 AM on September 30, 2010 [2 favorites]
Help out around the house. Seriously. At least this worked for me with an overprotective asian mother. She can't yell at me if I wash the dishes and do the laundry and vacuum. Particularly doing his own laundry, there's a certain time your mom has to stop folding your underpants. Early twenties is the time. Think of it as preparing himself for moving out and possibly living with a roommate. Also, shows his mom that yeah, he can take care of himself.
It may also help if he had a typical routine if that's at all convenient for him. Leave by a certain time in the morning, don't come back until a certain time. It's less confrontation than going in and out.
posted by like_neon at 2:19 AM on September 30, 2010 [2 favorites]
To be clear, I actually agree with NoRelationToLea, your friend has to move out. But my suggestions were just for things in the meantime while he can get his ducks in a row and get out of there.
posted by like_neon at 2:20 AM on September 30, 2010
posted by like_neon at 2:20 AM on September 30, 2010
Her house, her rules. They don't have to be reasonable because it's her house. If he doesn't like them and wants to be independent, then he needs to live independently.
posted by DarlingBri at 6:04 AM on September 30, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by DarlingBri at 6:04 AM on September 30, 2010 [2 favorites]
I think like_neon's got a great idea - if he's really using all the comforts of home, that glowy place where mom cooks for you, vacuums, does all the laundry, changes the sheets, etc, then the social contract (in most cultures) involves playing by her rules. If he can become mostly self-sufficient in his family home, and in fact make notable contributions, that can shift him off the bottom of the heap. It's not an actual bartering chip, and won't be instantaneous, it's more about changing perceptions over a longer time - if she doesn't have to take care of all his household needs, she may back off on thinking she has to look after his every move, too.
(this is also great if he's at all hazy on how to wash his clothes, what the recipe is for his favorite foods, why she always cooks with (X brand) of oil, etc)
posted by aimedwander at 6:34 AM on September 30, 2010
(this is also great if he's at all hazy on how to wash his clothes, what the recipe is for his favorite foods, why she always cooks with (X brand) of oil, etc)
posted by aimedwander at 6:34 AM on September 30, 2010
He's being frugal but paying a high emotional rent to his mother.
Does this make sound financial sense?
posted by Obscure Reference at 8:59 AM on September 30, 2010 [3 favorites]
Does this make sound financial sense?
posted by Obscure Reference at 8:59 AM on September 30, 2010 [3 favorites]
So aside from repeating, "best to move out", I'll add this for the time he's there.
1. Have options of places to go. Some of these should be productive towards getting out in the long run, but some should be just for fun and hanging out. My usual litmus is if you and your host would feel comfortable if you take a nap there. He'll want to make sure not to over-rely on any group of people, because you can burn bridges that way and that's not cool.
2. Don't get in the argument, don't engage. Not only because Mom won't listen AND it'll just waste time and energy, but it'll ALSO train her that "if she wants attention from her son, the best way to do it is to argue". Ideally, when she starts that drama, the best thing to do is either lock the door to the room (if possible) or leave. Negative reinforcement might help her figure out, arguing makes her son go away, while NOT arguing means he can be around (probably not, but positively reinforcing arguing will definitely not help).
3. Don't ask for permission for anything outside the home. Don't talk about other plans, or what is being done other than, "I'm going to work", "I'm going to school". Control-people see anything away from them as a problem and use it as a basis for argument... and more troubling, they'll act out especially if they know you have something important going on.
The most dysfunctional levels can include "accidents" - "Oh, you need to come home right now! Mom almost set the kitchen on fire! You can't go on that roadtrip with your girlfriend and your friends, your mom needs you" etc.
4. Don't agree to anything she commits you to without your permission. "Oh, Uncle so-and-so is in town tomorrow, you'll need to drive him around for the week he's here". "I can't. I've got work and school." and stop at whatever declination you make. Again, don't go into deep back and forth with reasons- because that ends up in arguments and bullshit.
5. Don't get into "You don't love me anymore/All I've done for you" discussions. Control parents like to do that one.
posted by yeloson at 9:08 AM on September 30, 2010 [1 favorite]
1. Have options of places to go. Some of these should be productive towards getting out in the long run, but some should be just for fun and hanging out. My usual litmus is if you and your host would feel comfortable if you take a nap there. He'll want to make sure not to over-rely on any group of people, because you can burn bridges that way and that's not cool.
2. Don't get in the argument, don't engage. Not only because Mom won't listen AND it'll just waste time and energy, but it'll ALSO train her that "if she wants attention from her son, the best way to do it is to argue". Ideally, when she starts that drama, the best thing to do is either lock the door to the room (if possible) or leave. Negative reinforcement might help her figure out, arguing makes her son go away, while NOT arguing means he can be around (probably not, but positively reinforcing arguing will definitely not help).
3. Don't ask for permission for anything outside the home. Don't talk about other plans, or what is being done other than, "I'm going to work", "I'm going to school". Control-people see anything away from them as a problem and use it as a basis for argument... and more troubling, they'll act out especially if they know you have something important going on.
The most dysfunctional levels can include "accidents" - "Oh, you need to come home right now! Mom almost set the kitchen on fire! You can't go on that roadtrip with your girlfriend and your friends, your mom needs you" etc.
4. Don't agree to anything she commits you to without your permission. "Oh, Uncle so-and-so is in town tomorrow, you'll need to drive him around for the week he's here". "I can't. I've got work and school." and stop at whatever declination you make. Again, don't go into deep back and forth with reasons- because that ends up in arguments and bullshit.
5. Don't get into "You don't love me anymore/All I've done for you" discussions. Control parents like to do that one.
posted by yeloson at 9:08 AM on September 30, 2010 [1 favorite]
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Does he have somewhere he can go to unwind (i.e. not home) or people he can vent to? If he won't move out of home, he should have somewhere he can be himself and away from his mother/family.
Going by my own experience and that of a friend's (both of us with overprotective mothers of the European kind) moving out is a step but not the whole story.
In the case of my friend, she moved countries but that just delayed the inevitable conflict.
In my case, I don't live with my parents and haven't for many years, but the rebelling and conflict have happened regardless (and have had to happen). It's taken my mother and I more than three years to get to the relatively good place we're at now and a key part was having my own space to be away from it all when I needed it.
Two final points:
-- Your friend should consider the possibility that his relationship with his mother may not make it through the process intact.
-- He may also want to keep in mind that an important part of the process is about his emotional state and how he processes what his mother actions and responses. He may have no option but to change his responses to her -- beyond a point (and that's different for everyone) he won't be able to make her change. I'm not saying he should put up with what she dishes out, it's more about him taking care of his emotional state regardless of what she does.
posted by prettypretty at 12:56 AM on September 30, 2010 [1 favorite]