Help me recover from on-again, off-again, and then just one huge big BOOM!
September 29, 2010 9:08 PM Subscribe
Six months. Dozens of emails a week. But it turns out … he’s married, with kids. The thing is, I’ve known him more than 20 years. Help me frame this.
The story goes like this:
I.
We’re from opposite ends of the English-speaking world. We met in Europe nearly 25 years ago. We eventually ended up living/traveling together for much of our first year together. Life is wonderful: We have much in common, he is a crackerjack conversationalist, a great listener, is witty, and funny—and not hard on the eyes. But life is difficult: He is a big one for “taking the piss” out of people and he repeatedly goes for the raw nerve. We argue international politics, and he often goes too far. We part peacefully when I return to college, but I am ambivalent about him.
II.
Gifts, letters, phone calls ensue; after graduation, I tell him I am moving to Asia and, to my surprise, so is he--although not to the same country. We meet up for a month soon after he arrives, and things go wrong from the start. He is on the offense. For periods he agrees to do everything I want--despite my being willing to do whatever he wants-- but then suddenly he gets stubborn about stupidities, and refuse to do something basic until I feel guilty, cave in, get confused.
(Many years later, he describes this tactic, by the by, as a business strategy.)
At the end of it all, when I am in tears and preparing to leave, he asks me to live with him. But I have plans to return home for my career there, so I turn him down. After I leave, he sends gifts. I reply with a fuck-off note. A few years of silence ensues.
(Far into the future I realize he knew I was going to turn him down, so he creates a situation in which he can tell himself that I didn’t reject him, but rather his bad behavior. He agrees with this analysis.)
III.
One day, a few years later, he suddenly writes that he is going to visit the States. I agree to see him on the condition that he be nice. The connection is instant and intense. We quickly decide to move in together in England. But when he leaves, I get scared. I write asking his intentions. His reply is misogynist: a note about how he has always felt that women were like milk, inevitably bound to expire. Another fuck-off note, more silence.
IV.
Several years pass. But I harbor some regrets, or worry that I was rash. Late into a serious relationship with someone else, I locate his address and send a note. A correspondence resumes. We decide to meet in New York. Our meeting is intense, and I broach marriage. He turns me down. We part well, our correspondence continues, and so does my other relationship.
Six months later he unexpectedly writes that I am his biggest regret. I am furious because I know he has no intentions. We don’t write for a long time.
V.
But then the correspondence starts up again. By then, like me, he has recently broken up with a partner of a dozen years. But while he has also reached the very top of his profession, I have suffered a large professional betrayal. We fight, and go silent because although we are not in the same profession, I feel he is being unnecessarily competitive with me.
*
Fast forward to the day of Obama’s victory when, for the first time in 20 years, he emails to apologize for his behavior. We resume writing for several months, albeit lightly.
Then my life, which has been teetering for some time, utterly disintegrates. I am laid off. My break-up goes legal. I have to move back in with family. And one result, for the first time ever, is that our correspondence goes daily. Several times a day, we write about politics, books, friends, jokes, personal stories. He talks about his work—he is on the verge of retiring young—and he asks for input on a house he has bought, its furniture, and so on. I asks for opinions on clothes. This time, when I am down, he writes me complex translations of his letters in accents. He also tells me about his disappointments, and I tell him mine. We grow close. He flirts a little, and seems to be single. I hint that I’d like to see him, and I can feel him grow wary. So I back off, but the correspondence does not falter. It’s only several months in, after a friend has suggested that he may be married, that I begin to joke that he has a wife and children. He takes care to tell me everything he does on the weekends after that. The way he says it, it sounds like he does it all alone.
But he does not write on weekends, and trips start to crop up, and he does not write then either. So I press, and finally threaten him with permanent expulsion from my life if he does not tell me his status. Finally, he admits that my “suppositions are correct.” When I press further, he finally confesses to two children and a wife, but says no more. As I am wrenching this information from him over several emails his behavior is troubling: No apologies, no explanations, instead, much dissembling, distortion, attempts at distraction. He has two dozen little tactics for changing the subject, diverting my attention, not taking responsibility for not telling me. It is creepy.
I say harsh things in several emails, but he does not reply in kind. As per his tone this entire correspondence, he is nice, kind, thoughtful, and thoroughly dishonest, not just with me, I begin to see, but also himself.
Yet I have been unable to make a final break with him, although we are not really writing anymore. I am also having trouble making peace with this, which given the circumstances can’t but be the ultimate finale.
Help me frame what just happened. I need to find some easy way to think of him and why never. I need some little mantra to shut up my inner Why.
The story goes like this:
I.
We’re from opposite ends of the English-speaking world. We met in Europe nearly 25 years ago. We eventually ended up living/traveling together for much of our first year together. Life is wonderful: We have much in common, he is a crackerjack conversationalist, a great listener, is witty, and funny—and not hard on the eyes. But life is difficult: He is a big one for “taking the piss” out of people and he repeatedly goes for the raw nerve. We argue international politics, and he often goes too far. We part peacefully when I return to college, but I am ambivalent about him.
II.
Gifts, letters, phone calls ensue; after graduation, I tell him I am moving to Asia and, to my surprise, so is he--although not to the same country. We meet up for a month soon after he arrives, and things go wrong from the start. He is on the offense. For periods he agrees to do everything I want--despite my being willing to do whatever he wants-- but then suddenly he gets stubborn about stupidities, and refuse to do something basic until I feel guilty, cave in, get confused.
(Many years later, he describes this tactic, by the by, as a business strategy.)
At the end of it all, when I am in tears and preparing to leave, he asks me to live with him. But I have plans to return home for my career there, so I turn him down. After I leave, he sends gifts. I reply with a fuck-off note. A few years of silence ensues.
(Far into the future I realize he knew I was going to turn him down, so he creates a situation in which he can tell himself that I didn’t reject him, but rather his bad behavior. He agrees with this analysis.)
III.
One day, a few years later, he suddenly writes that he is going to visit the States. I agree to see him on the condition that he be nice. The connection is instant and intense. We quickly decide to move in together in England. But when he leaves, I get scared. I write asking his intentions. His reply is misogynist: a note about how he has always felt that women were like milk, inevitably bound to expire. Another fuck-off note, more silence.
IV.
Several years pass. But I harbor some regrets, or worry that I was rash. Late into a serious relationship with someone else, I locate his address and send a note. A correspondence resumes. We decide to meet in New York. Our meeting is intense, and I broach marriage. He turns me down. We part well, our correspondence continues, and so does my other relationship.
Six months later he unexpectedly writes that I am his biggest regret. I am furious because I know he has no intentions. We don’t write for a long time.
V.
But then the correspondence starts up again. By then, like me, he has recently broken up with a partner of a dozen years. But while he has also reached the very top of his profession, I have suffered a large professional betrayal. We fight, and go silent because although we are not in the same profession, I feel he is being unnecessarily competitive with me.
*
Fast forward to the day of Obama’s victory when, for the first time in 20 years, he emails to apologize for his behavior. We resume writing for several months, albeit lightly.
Then my life, which has been teetering for some time, utterly disintegrates. I am laid off. My break-up goes legal. I have to move back in with family. And one result, for the first time ever, is that our correspondence goes daily. Several times a day, we write about politics, books, friends, jokes, personal stories. He talks about his work—he is on the verge of retiring young—and he asks for input on a house he has bought, its furniture, and so on. I asks for opinions on clothes. This time, when I am down, he writes me complex translations of his letters in accents. He also tells me about his disappointments, and I tell him mine. We grow close. He flirts a little, and seems to be single. I hint that I’d like to see him, and I can feel him grow wary. So I back off, but the correspondence does not falter. It’s only several months in, after a friend has suggested that he may be married, that I begin to joke that he has a wife and children. He takes care to tell me everything he does on the weekends after that. The way he says it, it sounds like he does it all alone.
But he does not write on weekends, and trips start to crop up, and he does not write then either. So I press, and finally threaten him with permanent expulsion from my life if he does not tell me his status. Finally, he admits that my “suppositions are correct.” When I press further, he finally confesses to two children and a wife, but says no more. As I am wrenching this information from him over several emails his behavior is troubling: No apologies, no explanations, instead, much dissembling, distortion, attempts at distraction. He has two dozen little tactics for changing the subject, diverting my attention, not taking responsibility for not telling me. It is creepy.
I say harsh things in several emails, but he does not reply in kind. As per his tone this entire correspondence, he is nice, kind, thoughtful, and thoroughly dishonest, not just with me, I begin to see, but also himself.
Yet I have been unable to make a final break with him, although we are not really writing anymore. I am also having trouble making peace with this, which given the circumstances can’t but be the ultimate finale.
Help me frame what just happened. I need to find some easy way to think of him and why never. I need some little mantra to shut up my inner Why.
My brother has a saying: "Stop trying to make sense out of what doesn't make sense."
Really sounds simplistic, but until you completely shut this person out of your life he'll be messing with your head.
Mantra? I dunno - "what has he really ever done for you?"
I would also say - there have got to be some less toxic people you can associate with for emotional support.
posted by randomkeystrike at 9:15 PM on September 29, 2010 [2 favorites]
Really sounds simplistic, but until you completely shut this person out of your life he'll be messing with your head.
Mantra? I dunno - "what has he really ever done for you?"
I would also say - there have got to be some less toxic people you can associate with for emotional support.
posted by randomkeystrike at 9:15 PM on September 29, 2010 [2 favorites]
(Many years later, he describes this tactic, by the by, as a business strategy.)
I don't say this very often, but...DTMFA, or at least move on. When people show you who they are, believe them.
posted by mynameisluka at 9:20 PM on September 29, 2010 [12 favorites]
I don't say this very often, but...DTMFA, or at least move on. When people show you who they are, believe them.
posted by mynameisluka at 9:20 PM on September 29, 2010 [12 favorites]
And by DTMFA, I mean...dump him in your mind. Make this a mental exercise in which you free yourself of the influence of someone who has done nothing but toy with and harm you. Wishing you the best as you pick up the pieces.
posted by mynameisluka at 9:21 PM on September 29, 2010
posted by mynameisluka at 9:21 PM on September 29, 2010
Some part of him is sick and twisted. You don't need this bullshit. Don't obsess on trying to figure him out, you'll get nowhere except more miserable. Move on, reach out to other people for friendship and support. Good luck.
posted by mareli at 9:24 PM on September 29, 2010 [4 favorites]
posted by mareli at 9:24 PM on September 29, 2010 [4 favorites]
Best answer: I need some little mantra to shut up my inner Why.
"I dodged a bullet. He was polished but a sociopath."
posted by foursentences at 9:25 PM on September 29, 2010 [44 favorites]
"I dodged a bullet. He was polished but a sociopath."
posted by foursentences at 9:25 PM on September 29, 2010 [44 favorites]
Best answer: You really enjoyed the drama and a sense that no matter what, your soul mate was in reserve, out there somewhere, and someday the right combination of things would transpire and you would finally find yourselves together and wonderfully happy. He was going with the same delusion. You were using each other, constantly, as Plan B. The drama was a big part of the excitement and lure of it all.
Remember that if he was really your soul mate, you would have made it work by now. After all, you had plenty of chances. So it's time to move on not only from your nostalgia for the past--which is not just nostalgia for him but also for being young and adventurous--and dreams of a possible future. Readjust your thinking, and accept that he isn't the backup anymore.
And, know that he is truly the asshole you always suspected, as he carried on a romantic, emotional betrayal of his family. He would never have been faithful to you, either. He just liked playing you. It hurts, and it sucks.
posted by bluedaisy at 9:26 PM on September 29, 2010 [62 favorites]
Remember that if he was really your soul mate, you would have made it work by now. After all, you had plenty of chances. So it's time to move on not only from your nostalgia for the past--which is not just nostalgia for him but also for being young and adventurous--and dreams of a possible future. Readjust your thinking, and accept that he isn't the backup anymore.
And, know that he is truly the asshole you always suspected, as he carried on a romantic, emotional betrayal of his family. He would never have been faithful to you, either. He just liked playing you. It hurts, and it sucks.
posted by bluedaisy at 9:26 PM on September 29, 2010 [62 favorites]
It doesn't really sound like he wronged you in any way. Keep reminding yourself that it's your responsibility to move on, and ultimately only your life will be affected by your failure or success in doing so.
posted by halogen at 9:28 PM on September 29, 2010
posted by halogen at 9:28 PM on September 29, 2010
What are you getting out of this that you keep going back there? He's never been honest or straight with you and when you offered a life with him, he rejected you so why would you keep going back there, because you want to finally win him? He's not interested, he just likes keeping you on a string and yanking it when he feels like it. You can waste decades on a man like that. Oh, wait, YOU ALREADY HAVE. How many more decades do you want to lose before you get it? Read on if you want a really harsh slap in the face...
.
.
.
Right now, you're the cautionary tale that other women will be warned about. It's time to cut him off and move onto men who will deserve, love and support you. Until you lose this guy, you'll never make space for the person you're supposed to be with.
posted by Jubey at 9:30 PM on September 29, 2010 [7 favorites]
.
.
.
Right now, you're the cautionary tale that other women will be warned about. It's time to cut him off and move onto men who will deserve, love and support you. Until you lose this guy, you'll never make space for the person you're supposed to be with.
posted by Jubey at 9:30 PM on September 29, 2010 [7 favorites]
From your description, this guy sounds like a user. I don't think he would be trustworthy by any measure, given the history you've laid out. He seems to have pretty good access to your buttons, and he seems pretty unafraid to push them. Anyone who does that is not a good person. Ideally, you should get as far away as you can. If you can't do that, be friends or whatever, but remind yourself, he is looking out only for himself, not you. He will likely say anything he can to get himself back in your good graces, only to screw you over when you are slightly inconvenient to him.
posted by Gilbert at 9:32 PM on September 29, 2010
posted by Gilbert at 9:32 PM on September 29, 2010
It's as if you got pushed off the deck of a boat by the Captain, and are desperately treading water just above a sandbar on the shore, yet still insist on diving in and swimming after a ship which has already left. This horrible nightmare can only end when you wake up and recognize that it's all been just a bad dream. Stop wasting your emotions on this jerk.
posted by PareidoliaticBoy at 9:33 PM on September 29, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by PareidoliaticBoy at 9:33 PM on September 29, 2010 [1 favorite]
You want a mantra? How about "Good riddance to bad rubbish."
posted by Green Eyed Monster at 9:43 PM on September 29, 2010 [5 favorites]
posted by Green Eyed Monster at 9:43 PM on September 29, 2010 [5 favorites]
He looks to you to boost his ego and always has. That's all. The fact that he has toyed with you for decades does not make him any more deserving of special consideration than someone that you met yesterday and has decided to mess with you.
You're in a trough in your life right now, but you'll get out, as I'm sure you've gotten out of troughs before. Might as well use the opportunity to clean up long-standing loose ends, mentally, and look forward to coming out of this stronger and cleaner.
posted by ignignokt at 9:58 PM on September 29, 2010 [2 favorites]
You're in a trough in your life right now, but you'll get out, as I'm sure you've gotten out of troughs before. Might as well use the opportunity to clean up long-standing loose ends, mentally, and look forward to coming out of this stronger and cleaner.
posted by ignignokt at 9:58 PM on September 29, 2010 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Good relationships generally don't make good stories. They're pretty boring, truth be told, but they are real. You know a person, actually know him, and you know he knows you. You love one another because you trust and understand each other.
You're suffering from a chronic case of Imaginary Man Syndrome, and I totally feel for you. Seriously. I've been there. There's this guy, and he seems amazing and wonderful and he makes you feel like no one else ever has, and he's poison.
The distance makes it easy to build a pedestal for your Imaginary Man. You just know he's kind and funny and brilliant and madly in love with you. And because he's so far away, you don't know about how he leaves the cap off the toothpaste or picks at his feet. You grant him superpowers, thus making him (a) the only man who could ever make you happy, and (b) the one man in the universe who could never make you happy.
There's only one solution to Imaginary Man Syndrome. You cut him out of your life. He no longer exists. If you want to keep his e-mails or anything he ever gave you, print them out and put them in a locked box in the back of your closet. Otherwise, delete all traces of him from everything.
It's hard. Really hard. You will peek into that box, you will search for him on FaceBook, you will want to send him an e-mail about something only he would appreciate or understand.
Find someone else to e-mail. A friend, just a plain ordinary friend. Or start a private journal. Do what you need to do to replace him.
Because every time you go back to your Imaginary Man, you're taking another step away from happiness, wherever it lies. It's not with the guy who lied to you and suggested you were past your expiration date. It's with someone else entirely, someone who actually lives in your universe.
posted by brina at 10:00 PM on September 29, 2010 [42 favorites]
You're suffering from a chronic case of Imaginary Man Syndrome, and I totally feel for you. Seriously. I've been there. There's this guy, and he seems amazing and wonderful and he makes you feel like no one else ever has, and he's poison.
The distance makes it easy to build a pedestal for your Imaginary Man. You just know he's kind and funny and brilliant and madly in love with you. And because he's so far away, you don't know about how he leaves the cap off the toothpaste or picks at his feet. You grant him superpowers, thus making him (a) the only man who could ever make you happy, and (b) the one man in the universe who could never make you happy.
There's only one solution to Imaginary Man Syndrome. You cut him out of your life. He no longer exists. If you want to keep his e-mails or anything he ever gave you, print them out and put them in a locked box in the back of your closet. Otherwise, delete all traces of him from everything.
It's hard. Really hard. You will peek into that box, you will search for him on FaceBook, you will want to send him an e-mail about something only he would appreciate or understand.
Find someone else to e-mail. A friend, just a plain ordinary friend. Or start a private journal. Do what you need to do to replace him.
Because every time you go back to your Imaginary Man, you're taking another step away from happiness, wherever it lies. It's not with the guy who lied to you and suggested you were past your expiration date. It's with someone else entirely, someone who actually lives in your universe.
posted by brina at 10:00 PM on September 29, 2010 [42 favorites]
You are a link to his younger self, and he does not want to let go of that.
posted by the noob at 10:09 PM on September 29, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by the noob at 10:09 PM on September 29, 2010 [1 favorite]
The whole tone of your post suggests the problem. You could have gotten to the point much more efficiently. But you've given us a novella.
You sound simply fascinated ... enthralled ... titillated ... by the whole thing. You know it's wrong ... but you can't help reliving the drama! romance! suspense! passion! 25 years of it -- in one fleetingly sexy chapter after another!
I, random internet commenter, can't make a persuasive rational argument here in plain text that you should not be excited by this. You have to convince yourself that he's more boring and/or pathetic and/or appalling than exciting. I can't do this for you -- it's up to you.
posted by John Cohen at 10:12 PM on September 29, 2010 [35 favorites]
You sound simply fascinated ... enthralled ... titillated ... by the whole thing. You know it's wrong ... but you can't help reliving the drama! romance! suspense! passion! 25 years of it -- in one fleetingly sexy chapter after another!
I, random internet commenter, can't make a persuasive rational argument here in plain text that you should not be excited by this. You have to convince yourself that he's more boring and/or pathetic and/or appalling than exciting. I can't do this for you -- it's up to you.
posted by John Cohen at 10:12 PM on September 29, 2010 [35 favorites]
Like Gilbert said above, he is a user.
He will use you whenever and for however long you allow him to. Weigh your decisions accordingly.
posted by uri at 10:21 PM on September 29, 2010
He will use you whenever and for however long you allow him to. Weigh your decisions accordingly.
posted by uri at 10:21 PM on September 29, 2010
3 word mantra: it didn't work.
You can't analyze him, his behavior, his motives or his intentions. You've both contributed and built up this drama for some reason. If you want it to be over, walk away. You tried (many times, against all odds and against all apparent signs) and: It didn't work.
posted by barnone at 10:24 PM on September 29, 2010
You can't analyze him, his behavior, his motives or his intentions. You've both contributed and built up this drama for some reason. If you want it to be over, walk away. You tried (many times, against all odds and against all apparent signs) and: It didn't work.
posted by barnone at 10:24 PM on September 29, 2010
Best answer: Help me frame what just happened. I need to find some easy way to think of him and why never. I need some little mantra to shut up my inner Why.
Christ, what an asshole.
Seriously, for 20-odd years, guy has consistently been a dick to you. And now it turns out that the few times he wasn't being a dick he was being a liar. Christ, what an asshole.
posted by dersins at 10:36 PM on September 29, 2010 [9 favorites]
Christ, what an asshole.
Seriously, for 20-odd years, guy has consistently been a dick to you. And now it turns out that the few times he wasn't being a dick he was being a liar. Christ, what an asshole.
posted by dersins at 10:36 PM on September 29, 2010 [9 favorites]
Pardon me if this sounds crass, but you guys have what I call a "mind fuck" relationship. You would DETEST being married to this guy, and he can't last more than a year with you. I've been in these - eventually both sides settle down with someone nice, but every once in a while it's nice to meet your enemy on the field of battle (or in a nice hotel room). You're angry, so obviously the relationship is going well. Check back with him in another 5 years or so, in the meantime, find someone nice.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 10:38 PM on September 29, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by The Light Fantastic at 10:38 PM on September 29, 2010 [3 favorites]
Best answer: This was a very suspenseful, romantic, thrilling story. It was also very disturbing (I'm sorry if that's harsh, I mean it in the nicest, most helpful way possible). This guy sounds like stories I've heard of narcissists or sociopaths, and the lovers that cling to them because they are so brilliant and charming.
Here is what happened: you got played by a guy who is probably very sick and twisted on the inside. You should probably feel pity for him. I mean, homeboy can't commit or be faithful to anyone. Hell, look how he's betrayed his family in his correspondence to you.
Here is an easy way to think of him: as a gigantic manipulator.
You dodged a bullet, my friend. Sincerely.
posted by SkylitDrawl at 10:59 PM on September 29, 2010 [1 favorite]
Here is what happened: you got played by a guy who is probably very sick and twisted on the inside. You should probably feel pity for him. I mean, homeboy can't commit or be faithful to anyone. Hell, look how he's betrayed his family in his correspondence to you.
Here is an easy way to think of him: as a gigantic manipulator.
You dodged a bullet, my friend. Sincerely.
posted by SkylitDrawl at 10:59 PM on September 29, 2010 [1 favorite]
I rarely do the victim blaming schtick, but I do think you enjoyed this drama a bit much. You proposed marriage to him while you were in another relationship, after all - you and he seem very much cut from the same cloth.
You have a choice to make: grow up (already) and move on or allow this "relationship" to ruin every opportunity you have at being really happy.
Seems like an easy choice to me.
posted by FlamingBore at 11:04 PM on September 29, 2010 [10 favorites]
You have a choice to make: grow up (already) and move on or allow this "relationship" to ruin every opportunity you have at being really happy.
Seems like an easy choice to me.
posted by FlamingBore at 11:04 PM on September 29, 2010 [10 favorites]
Help me frame what just happened. I need to find some easy way to think of him and why never. I need some little mantra to shut up my inner Why.
He is an asshole.
posted by LarryC at 11:22 PM on September 29, 2010 [1 favorite]
He is an asshole.
posted by LarryC at 11:22 PM on September 29, 2010 [1 favorite]
here's your mantra: "I deserve better"
posted by macinchik at 11:24 PM on September 29, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by macinchik at 11:24 PM on September 29, 2010 [2 favorites]
Framing: I want unavailable guy. Unavailable guy wants me. We're both in love with the drama. This hasn't worked for decades, and will continue to be like this.
posted by zippy at 11:30 PM on September 29, 2010 [7 favorites]
posted by zippy at 11:30 PM on September 29, 2010 [7 favorites]
And another mantra: Some puzzles aren't worth solving.
posted by sianifach at 11:54 PM on September 29, 2010 [4 favorites]
posted by sianifach at 11:54 PM on September 29, 2010 [4 favorites]
If you were the director filming this story, what would the ending be ?
posted by llc at 12:00 AM on September 30, 2010
posted by llc at 12:00 AM on September 30, 2010
compulsive liar.
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 12:30 AM on September 30, 2010
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 12:30 AM on September 30, 2010
ack - sorry, that was vague - he is a compulsivde liar, not you. There is no way it ever would have worked, because even if you were getting along, he'd need to make up stuff to keep the drama going.
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 12:32 AM on September 30, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 12:32 AM on September 30, 2010 [1 favorite]
The thing is, I’ve known him more than 20 years.
And you still want to believe he's not an asshole? You both seem like the over-analytical types who can justify anything with a convoluted enough explanation (it was... a business strategy). Get back to basic facts rather than pretending you can read his mind (or believe what he says): he lied, is married, and you should examine why you are obsessed with unavailable men.
posted by benzenedream at 12:34 AM on September 30, 2010 [2 favorites]
And you still want to believe he's not an asshole? You both seem like the over-analytical types who can justify anything with a convoluted enough explanation (it was... a business strategy). Get back to basic facts rather than pretending you can read his mind (or believe what he says): he lied, is married, and you should examine why you are obsessed with unavailable men.
posted by benzenedream at 12:34 AM on September 30, 2010 [2 favorites]
You seem to have been living in the land of "what if" for the last 20+ years. What if we'd been together in Asia? What if we'd made a go of it in England?
The answer to that is most likely that you'd be the spouse he'd be emotionally cheating on. The way it is now you've learned a valuable lesson and can move on. The other way you'd have to share children with this manipulative liar for the rest of your life.
Be thankful you got out with a few emotional scars and a valuable lesson. You could have been through a messy divorce and nasty child custody issues, plus the emotional scars to learn the same lesson.
posted by TooFewShoes at 12:37 AM on September 30, 2010 [2 favorites]
The answer to that is most likely that you'd be the spouse he'd be emotionally cheating on. The way it is now you've learned a valuable lesson and can move on. The other way you'd have to share children with this manipulative liar for the rest of your life.
Be thankful you got out with a few emotional scars and a valuable lesson. You could have been through a messy divorce and nasty child custody issues, plus the emotional scars to learn the same lesson.
posted by TooFewShoes at 12:37 AM on September 30, 2010 [2 favorites]
Here are a few other ways to "frame" the story:
posted by AmbroseChapel at 12:43 AM on September 30, 2010 [22 favorites]
- You're not the only person he's done this to. Think about it. He's probably had twenty relationships like this in his life. He likes the drama. He likes the arguments. He likes the feeling of making you cry. He's probably got ten women strung out in frustrating, tantalising email relationships just like yours. And some more in real life too. It's unfortunate that he's special to you, but I'd bet a pile of cash that you're not that special to him.
- Now that you know he's a sociopathic liar ... is any of the other stuff he's told you true? Is he really at the pinnacle of his profession, doing well financially, etc.? For all you know he's one payment away from foreclosure and working as a bus station janitor.
- You could devote some energy to feeling sorry for his wife and kids. You dodged the bullet, as people have said above. They're stuck with him.
- After a while when you've got some perspective, you could try feeling sorry for him. There's something wrong with him as profound as a physical handicap, only it's not physical.
- As brina says upthread, the man you actually like is imaginary. The guy you're currently having the relationship with, the guy who over and over and over again, does hurtful things, deliberately, and admits it? Well, that's another guy. So try giving them different names. The breezy, cool guy you met years ago, who just has the minor flaw of liking to take the piss out of people -- he can be called Dave. You miss Dave. But unfortunately he died. The new guy is called Damien. He's a lot like Dave, except that, instead of just liking to take the piss out of people, he likes to be hateful and mean and make people cry.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 12:43 AM on September 30, 2010 [22 favorites]
Best answer: Ah these guys. I've got a soft spot for them too. They should all be put on an island somewhere (not Britain) and neutered so they can have pissing contests with each other for the rest of their lives.
Think of him taking a really smelly shit whenever he crops up in your head.
posted by By The Grace of God at 1:15 AM on September 30, 2010 [2 favorites]
Think of him taking a really smelly shit whenever he crops up in your head.
posted by By The Grace of God at 1:15 AM on September 30, 2010 [2 favorites]
Here's your framing: Illusions Collapse, Reality Sets In, Hard Work Begins
"Just as the housing bubble collapse kicked off an era of financial austerity for many consumers, other harsh realities are having similarly drastic impacts. Many US residents find themselves now having to unwind from other forms of irrational exuberance and beginning a new phase of hard work, austerity, and personal discipline."
posted by salvia at 1:32 AM on September 30, 2010
"Just as the housing bubble collapse kicked off an era of financial austerity for many consumers, other harsh realities are having similarly drastic impacts. Many US residents find themselves now having to unwind from other forms of irrational exuberance and beginning a new phase of hard work, austerity, and personal discipline."
posted by salvia at 1:32 AM on September 30, 2010
Sorry about the US residents bit. Especially because it's not true. (Part of a quick brainstorm, meant to change it before posting actually, then forgot.)
posted by salvia at 1:34 AM on September 30, 2010
posted by salvia at 1:34 AM on September 30, 2010
Best answer: Violet Blue: “Help me frame what just happened. I need to find some easy way to think of him and why never. I need some little mantra to shut up my inner Why.”
I think I know just what you mean; it's painful for you to think of what happened here. I think people might be missing that subtext, but I get it.
To flesh that out a little:
What happened isn't painful because a guy lied to you, or because you were deceived, or because you were let down, or because you don't get to be with him. (It doesn't sound like you've been with him that much at all over the years anyway.) It's painful, in a deep and horrible and searing way, because of your part in this; you remember all the times you swallowed his lies, over and over again, and you remember all the times when you took him back or decided to play along when (in your mind) it should've been obvious that he was leading you on.
That's the crux here, I think. That's why you want to "shut up [your] inner Why." But I think that's the wrong thing to do; and I think it's actually holding you back.
In reading your story, it's very, very hard for me to avoid the conclusion that your shame and frustration with your own willingness to play along with his games had a pretty huge part in perpetuating those games and bringing you back to the whole deal. I get the sense that there have been a number of times when you felt silly for having him back, but you did it again; that indicates to me that you were hoping for a different result, something with more 'resolution,' something that felt at least like a real ending. This doesn't necessarily mean you're a sucker, by the way. It makes a perverse kind of sense; I think part of you was pushing it full-speed just hoping that it'd go wrong so at least you could have an end to it.
One thing I've noticed is that shame and guilt make people do funny things that they don't realize they're doing; if you let your own annoyance at yourself become a strong force, it'll lead you into situations like this a lot – not necessarily with jerks like this dude, but you'll often find yourself feverishly fighting for something that you actually really don't want, out of a miscalculating desire to 'fix' your own mistakes.
To get rid of that feeling – and to get the closure you really need from this situation – what you need isn't to forget what happened. What you need to do is forgive yourself for what happened, and for what you let happen. Forgiveness takes self-knowledge; it's not something you can do for yourself while you're feverishly trying to put the whole thing out of your mind. What you need to do is accept what happened, and see what you did wrong and why, without feeling like a fool or feeling like a terrible person.
For starters, please know that what happened to you certainly doesn't indicate that you're foolish. You just wanted the contact he provided – that's all. People want human contact. It's natural. You didn't know that he was leading you on. And in the times when you let feeling and even frustration drive you back to the situation, you were just doing what came naturally; you were doing what made sense to you at the time. You were the one who insisted on knowing whether he was married or not, and who riddled that out of him – and good for you for doing that! Most people would've ignored it and simply hoped it wasn't true, without having the courage to insist on knowing. Even the mistakes you made – trusting a person for a long time, having faith that their apparent kindness and decency was genuine – aren't really mistakes so much as they're virtues that were simply used in the wrong context. Trust is a good thing, and you're a better human being for having trusted him, as wrong as it might have seemed in the end.
Also, I have to say that you sound a bit isolated; and I think that can really hold you back, too. What I mean is: you need to find a good friend you can trust and talk to that person at length about this whole stupid thing. My experience is that it really, really feels good to talk about mistakes that you're beating yourself up over with someone caring whom you trust. The pain and loathing we feel at ourselves – 'how could I have been so foolish?' – dissipates rapidly when we tell these mistakes to friends, and our friends smile and nod and accept them and aren't nearly as scandalized as we think they'll be. It turns out mistakes like these aren't so bad after all – and talking with human beings about them can really bring that fact home. You should be with good friends if that's something you can do; at the very least, it can be nice to call someone you've known and cared about for a long time and talk with them about it. Yes, I see the 'irony' in the fact that you knew and trusted him for so many years. But that's the point; you need to get back out there and share this with a friend who you can actually trust, if only to remind yourself that trusting can be really good, too, and that your mistake wasn't half as bad as you're thinking it was.
posted by koeselitz at 2:04 AM on September 30, 2010 [29 favorites]
I think I know just what you mean; it's painful for you to think of what happened here. I think people might be missing that subtext, but I get it.
To flesh that out a little:
What happened isn't painful because a guy lied to you, or because you were deceived, or because you were let down, or because you don't get to be with him. (It doesn't sound like you've been with him that much at all over the years anyway.) It's painful, in a deep and horrible and searing way, because of your part in this; you remember all the times you swallowed his lies, over and over again, and you remember all the times when you took him back or decided to play along when (in your mind) it should've been obvious that he was leading you on.
That's the crux here, I think. That's why you want to "shut up [your] inner Why." But I think that's the wrong thing to do; and I think it's actually holding you back.
In reading your story, it's very, very hard for me to avoid the conclusion that your shame and frustration with your own willingness to play along with his games had a pretty huge part in perpetuating those games and bringing you back to the whole deal. I get the sense that there have been a number of times when you felt silly for having him back, but you did it again; that indicates to me that you were hoping for a different result, something with more 'resolution,' something that felt at least like a real ending. This doesn't necessarily mean you're a sucker, by the way. It makes a perverse kind of sense; I think part of you was pushing it full-speed just hoping that it'd go wrong so at least you could have an end to it.
One thing I've noticed is that shame and guilt make people do funny things that they don't realize they're doing; if you let your own annoyance at yourself become a strong force, it'll lead you into situations like this a lot – not necessarily with jerks like this dude, but you'll often find yourself feverishly fighting for something that you actually really don't want, out of a miscalculating desire to 'fix' your own mistakes.
To get rid of that feeling – and to get the closure you really need from this situation – what you need isn't to forget what happened. What you need to do is forgive yourself for what happened, and for what you let happen. Forgiveness takes self-knowledge; it's not something you can do for yourself while you're feverishly trying to put the whole thing out of your mind. What you need to do is accept what happened, and see what you did wrong and why, without feeling like a fool or feeling like a terrible person.
For starters, please know that what happened to you certainly doesn't indicate that you're foolish. You just wanted the contact he provided – that's all. People want human contact. It's natural. You didn't know that he was leading you on. And in the times when you let feeling and even frustration drive you back to the situation, you were just doing what came naturally; you were doing what made sense to you at the time. You were the one who insisted on knowing whether he was married or not, and who riddled that out of him – and good for you for doing that! Most people would've ignored it and simply hoped it wasn't true, without having the courage to insist on knowing. Even the mistakes you made – trusting a person for a long time, having faith that their apparent kindness and decency was genuine – aren't really mistakes so much as they're virtues that were simply used in the wrong context. Trust is a good thing, and you're a better human being for having trusted him, as wrong as it might have seemed in the end.
Also, I have to say that you sound a bit isolated; and I think that can really hold you back, too. What I mean is: you need to find a good friend you can trust and talk to that person at length about this whole stupid thing. My experience is that it really, really feels good to talk about mistakes that you're beating yourself up over with someone caring whom you trust. The pain and loathing we feel at ourselves – 'how could I have been so foolish?' – dissipates rapidly when we tell these mistakes to friends, and our friends smile and nod and accept them and aren't nearly as scandalized as we think they'll be. It turns out mistakes like these aren't so bad after all – and talking with human beings about them can really bring that fact home. You should be with good friends if that's something you can do; at the very least, it can be nice to call someone you've known and cared about for a long time and talk with them about it. Yes, I see the 'irony' in the fact that you knew and trusted him for so many years. But that's the point; you need to get back out there and share this with a friend who you can actually trust, if only to remind yourself that trusting can be really good, too, and that your mistake wasn't half as bad as you're thinking it was.
posted by koeselitz at 2:04 AM on September 30, 2010 [29 favorites]
The reality of online dating - with all of the resources we have at our ready disposal - is that online dating is a choice to ignore the facts that ultimately will bring blame and disposal to the situation. Online infatuation is a mix of calm ignorance, hopeful inclination, and the ability of fantasy. Accepting the scenario, like that of a reality television show, is easy because it seems real enough to pass for being part of the culture of relationships.
The problem of online dating is that it's always a look-forward situation. When I am encumbered by fantasy all of the other windows and doors that seem open and opportunity are put away in pursuit of a nature of having. When we make that online connection, no matter how real it seems, we have to still be vigilant. There is always something lurking in every possibility. I don't mean to put away online dating as a tool to find love; it has to reasoned in the same way I seek advice or receive unsolicited counsel about someone I meet on the street.
I know the first thing you want to do is cut contact, laying down a line in the sand. I worry that by doing so you are putting yourself once again at the point of accepting a new opportunity for distanced companionship without properly understanding the prohibitions. It's clear he lied. Did you lie? Did you lie at all? I find a lot of untruths in online dating and a very high level of expectation. Online relationships are in my belief akin to a marriage. Though no rites are performed you enter the covenant with an agreement usually gained through apologia. I have been tempted - as I think we all have - to rekindle a flame of opportunity to take us out of a certain way of being.
Love is a stress like no other. Dealing with the shortness of distance that this hits you is nothing compared to the tremendous guilt you may feel personally for being so ignorant to what your partner was going through. You probably cannot forgive, but did you expect a relationship in the real terms of living together? Did you talk of being naked when the other arrived back? Did you share ideas about a vacation to search out your feelings about one another? These are all symptomatic of a longing for contact that I don't think online relationships can deliver without systematic, deeply personal conversations. Long distances lose that in the faith that fantasy and dream will allow unreality to arrive intact at the landing - so you may start fresh as husband and wife.
Don't let yourself be wrapped up in the guilt of the past. Don't let yourself worry for a relationship that was never there in the first place. You were getting off with one another, whether you choose to accept that reality or not. I don't believe from reading this that you had anything but an emotional affair that you bought into and truly enjoyed. I have witnessed this crashing period, the subsequent revival, and the romantic period where it all seems to matter more to take you away from a space you revile but helped build. Then, there is the crushing weight of surprise mixed with the sad disease of guilt crashing through like tall waves.
The cure is movement both in and out of yourself. Letting this overtake your own progress to come back on track will probably make you plummet into an even deeper obsession with an unconquerable stone. You were not his mistress. He was not your concubine. Learn about what drives your insecurities to be so enraptured with the idea of blind trust. That lesson will help you the most.
posted by parmanparman at 3:10 AM on September 30, 2010 [1 favorite]
The problem of online dating is that it's always a look-forward situation. When I am encumbered by fantasy all of the other windows and doors that seem open and opportunity are put away in pursuit of a nature of having. When we make that online connection, no matter how real it seems, we have to still be vigilant. There is always something lurking in every possibility. I don't mean to put away online dating as a tool to find love; it has to reasoned in the same way I seek advice or receive unsolicited counsel about someone I meet on the street.
I know the first thing you want to do is cut contact, laying down a line in the sand. I worry that by doing so you are putting yourself once again at the point of accepting a new opportunity for distanced companionship without properly understanding the prohibitions. It's clear he lied. Did you lie? Did you lie at all? I find a lot of untruths in online dating and a very high level of expectation. Online relationships are in my belief akin to a marriage. Though no rites are performed you enter the covenant with an agreement usually gained through apologia. I have been tempted - as I think we all have - to rekindle a flame of opportunity to take us out of a certain way of being.
Love is a stress like no other. Dealing with the shortness of distance that this hits you is nothing compared to the tremendous guilt you may feel personally for being so ignorant to what your partner was going through. You probably cannot forgive, but did you expect a relationship in the real terms of living together? Did you talk of being naked when the other arrived back? Did you share ideas about a vacation to search out your feelings about one another? These are all symptomatic of a longing for contact that I don't think online relationships can deliver without systematic, deeply personal conversations. Long distances lose that in the faith that fantasy and dream will allow unreality to arrive intact at the landing - so you may start fresh as husband and wife.
Don't let yourself be wrapped up in the guilt of the past. Don't let yourself worry for a relationship that was never there in the first place. You were getting off with one another, whether you choose to accept that reality or not. I don't believe from reading this that you had anything but an emotional affair that you bought into and truly enjoyed. I have witnessed this crashing period, the subsequent revival, and the romantic period where it all seems to matter more to take you away from a space you revile but helped build. Then, there is the crushing weight of surprise mixed with the sad disease of guilt crashing through like tall waves.
The cure is movement both in and out of yourself. Letting this overtake your own progress to come back on track will probably make you plummet into an even deeper obsession with an unconquerable stone. You were not his mistress. He was not your concubine. Learn about what drives your insecurities to be so enraptured with the idea of blind trust. That lesson will help you the most.
posted by parmanparman at 3:10 AM on September 30, 2010 [1 favorite]
How about "now I will find someone who treats me right." I also prescribe an intense dose of every single girl power song ever written, especially "I Will Survive."
And please, don't ever, ever reply to anything he sends you.
posted by SMPA at 4:14 AM on September 30, 2010 [1 favorite]
And please, don't ever, ever reply to anything he sends you.
posted by SMPA at 4:14 AM on September 30, 2010 [1 favorite]
Would you rather eat a fabulous meal that makes you violently ill six hours later, or a normal meal that you can digest? Would you want to blow a paycheck on a gorgeous new coat if it fell apart at the seams after a couple wearings? If you had an employee who turned in great work once a month and spent the rest of the time ignoring you and reading Facebook, would you keep him on or start looking for a replacement?
You probably wouldn't put up with this sort of unreliability in any other part of your life. There's no need for you to put up with it in other people.
posted by Metroid Baby at 4:44 AM on September 30, 2010 [2 favorites]
You probably wouldn't put up with this sort of unreliability in any other part of your life. There's no need for you to put up with it in other people.
posted by Metroid Baby at 4:44 AM on September 30, 2010 [2 favorites]
Seconding what foursentences said.
Additionally though, cope with this situation by writing about it. You're clearly an eloquent writer and the act of laying it all out there at once can really be cathartic.
posted by citywolf at 5:24 AM on September 30, 2010
Additionally though, cope with this situation by writing about it. You're clearly an eloquent writer and the act of laying it all out there at once can really be cathartic.
posted by citywolf at 5:24 AM on September 30, 2010
Your post focuses completely on him and his motivations. You breeze right by all the times you initiated contact with him, knowing he was a jerk, and the times you threw yourself at him, knowing he would reject you.
My point is that you're all wrapped up in the delicious drama of the ride he's taken you on, and you have no sense of personal responsibility for all the choices you've made, all down the line.
He's a dick, and you seem like a glutton for punishment. Don't silence your inner Why - just ask better questions. Not, "why did this never work out?", but instead, "why did I continue to make such poor choices?" "why did I persist in ignoring everything negative about this person?" "why don't I have better boundaries against toxic people?"
Once you've thought about those whys, you can move on to developing the skills to make better choices in the future, and put this loser in your rear-view mirror.
posted by Squeak Attack at 7:04 AM on September 30, 2010 [3 favorites]
My point is that you're all wrapped up in the delicious drama of the ride he's taken you on, and you have no sense of personal responsibility for all the choices you've made, all down the line.
He's a dick, and you seem like a glutton for punishment. Don't silence your inner Why - just ask better questions. Not, "why did this never work out?", but instead, "why did I continue to make such poor choices?" "why did I persist in ignoring everything negative about this person?" "why don't I have better boundaries against toxic people?"
Once you've thought about those whys, you can move on to developing the skills to make better choices in the future, and put this loser in your rear-view mirror.
posted by Squeak Attack at 7:04 AM on September 30, 2010 [3 favorites]
My mantra for crappy, haunting past relationships: I'm too old for that shit.
The kind of drama I went through was one thing when I was young(er) and stupid(er) and full of piss and vinegar and Bad Decisions. But I'm a grown woman now, and sometimes I still have to remind myself: I'm too old for that shit.
posted by juliplease at 8:05 AM on September 30, 2010 [1 favorite]
The kind of drama I went through was one thing when I was young(er) and stupid(er) and full of piss and vinegar and Bad Decisions. But I'm a grown woman now, and sometimes I still have to remind myself: I'm too old for that shit.
posted by juliplease at 8:05 AM on September 30, 2010 [1 favorite]
I've been through this, albeit on a smaller time frame than you, and what worked for me was to realize that I kept going back because I would think it would be different each time: that we would be honest, that we would work things out in a new/different/better way, and THIS time it would work.
I eventually worked out this formula: fascination + curiousity = obsession. I kept going back because I was 1) fascinated with him. I could not understand how his mind worked at all, and kept trying to rationalize his behavior- and I really wanted to be that person who understood what made him tick. Secondly, I was endlessly curious about what would happen if we got together again. Those two factors combined meant that I could not let go of the relationship no matter how toxic it was.
It was really truly over for me mentally when I realized- when given the chance to renew communication yet again- that I didn't have to wonder what would happen if we resumed contact; I already knew. I knew it would end disastrously and that there would be lies. I knew that we would not work out, and for me, that meant that I could confidently close that door without ever having to look back and wonder, "What if?"
As for the "Why" in his behavior, I can only tell you that it's unwise to look to him for any closure or answers. Never depend on the person who has lied to you for honesty on the way out.
posted by questionsandanchors at 8:17 AM on September 30, 2010 [4 favorites]
I eventually worked out this formula: fascination + curiousity = obsession. I kept going back because I was 1) fascinated with him. I could not understand how his mind worked at all, and kept trying to rationalize his behavior- and I really wanted to be that person who understood what made him tick. Secondly, I was endlessly curious about what would happen if we got together again. Those two factors combined meant that I could not let go of the relationship no matter how toxic it was.
It was really truly over for me mentally when I realized- when given the chance to renew communication yet again- that I didn't have to wonder what would happen if we resumed contact; I already knew. I knew it would end disastrously and that there would be lies. I knew that we would not work out, and for me, that meant that I could confidently close that door without ever having to look back and wonder, "What if?"
As for the "Why" in his behavior, I can only tell you that it's unwise to look to him for any closure or answers. Never depend on the person who has lied to you for honesty on the way out.
posted by questionsandanchors at 8:17 AM on September 30, 2010 [4 favorites]
You've spent 25 years trying to pretend this guy is someone he isn't. Why do you need him to be that person so badly?
posted by MsMolly at 8:18 AM on September 30, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by MsMolly at 8:18 AM on September 30, 2010 [1 favorite]
Best answer: He sounds very much like a girl I once dated, who my psychiatrist believed suffered from borderline personality disorder: Relationships with others are intense and unstable. They swing wildly from love to hate and back again. People with BPD will frantically try to avoid real or imagined abandonment.
Obviously I Am Not His Psychiatrist, nor yours, but whether or not he actually has this disorder, the effect on you seems to be the same - he pulls away and comes back, and he manipulates you and lies to you in order to avoid your abandonment. It makes actually getting away from him very difficult, but probably the best course of action.
posted by atbash at 9:02 AM on September 30, 2010 [1 favorite]
Obviously I Am Not His Psychiatrist, nor yours, but whether or not he actually has this disorder, the effect on you seems to be the same - he pulls away and comes back, and he manipulates you and lies to you in order to avoid your abandonment. It makes actually getting away from him very difficult, but probably the best course of action.
posted by atbash at 9:02 AM on September 30, 2010 [1 favorite]
Make your final break. It needs to be done and you know it. One last email that says "This is over. Do not ever contact me again. Ever." If you need to change your email, phone number, whatever, do it. I dealt with this on a much smaller scale (a similar '"relationship" over the course of 4 years), and after I sent the last text asking him never to contact me again I felt like a huge weight had been lifted. Send the email. Forget about him. Make your mantra "Thank God that's over." Move on!
posted by coupdefoudre at 9:03 AM on September 30, 2010
posted by coupdefoudre at 9:03 AM on September 30, 2010
This is so ridiculously familiar to me, it was hard to read the entire thing. Suffice it to say I had a very similar experience.
The answer to Why? is: who knows why. There are a million possible explanations. Likely he is an asshole of some sort, or else severely misguided. And you were misguided as well, not only to get involved with him in the first place, to but to carry it on for so long. You made a mistake. You both made mistakes. You will never know exactly why, and you have to learn to accept that. The important thing to focus on is: It's over now.
Don't send him a goodbye email; it will only prolong the drama. Let this thing die quietly.
It will take years to stop revisiting the memories, but revisiting memories and getting caught back up in the same old situation are two different things. There is a difference between mourning and necromancy.
posted by Ouisch at 9:22 AM on September 30, 2010
The answer to Why? is: who knows why. There are a million possible explanations. Likely he is an asshole of some sort, or else severely misguided. And you were misguided as well, not only to get involved with him in the first place, to but to carry it on for so long. You made a mistake. You both made mistakes. You will never know exactly why, and you have to learn to accept that. The important thing to focus on is: It's over now.
Don't send him a goodbye email; it will only prolong the drama. Let this thing die quietly.
It will take years to stop revisiting the memories, but revisiting memories and getting caught back up in the same old situation are two different things. There is a difference between mourning and necromancy.
posted by Ouisch at 9:22 AM on September 30, 2010
Also: once children become involved, it's a whole 'nother ballgame.
Between adult people who enter relationships knowing nothing is guaranteed, it may be unethical but not unthinkable to entertain the idea of another relationship.
But children are unwilling, completely innocent bystanders in this game. His communication with you inevitably will have an effect on his family, children included. Even if he keeps it totally secret.
I would refuse, absolutely refuse, to be involved in anything that had the potential to harm children.
posted by Ouisch at 9:25 AM on September 30, 2010 [5 favorites]
Between adult people who enter relationships knowing nothing is guaranteed, it may be unethical but not unthinkable to entertain the idea of another relationship.
But children are unwilling, completely innocent bystanders in this game. His communication with you inevitably will have an effect on his family, children included. Even if he keeps it totally secret.
I would refuse, absolutely refuse, to be involved in anything that had the potential to harm children.
posted by Ouisch at 9:25 AM on September 30, 2010 [5 favorites]
Many people have no idea why they do things so it really is pointless trying to understand them and their actions.
Some nasty controlling people also seem to need a certain number of "toys" to play with, so if they feel low then they might find a new victim or reconnect with someone to show off their superiority, advertise how great they are, but only so they can go "nyah! nyah! you can't have me!" and play other similar games. They usually like to keep things at home quiet so will often have an exceptionally tolerant docile (and/or terrified) family that they keep fairly isolated.
Look on the bright side - at least you aren't part of that family.
Some people are just evil, but unfortunately evil doesn't have labels so you can take a long time to figure it out, plus it can have its attractions if you're lonely, bored, temporarily weak, self-hating, brainwashed, or a fixer. Learn to be strong and not let evil people creep into your life or stay there.
posted by meepmeow at 10:24 AM on September 30, 2010 [2 favorites]
Some nasty controlling people also seem to need a certain number of "toys" to play with, so if they feel low then they might find a new victim or reconnect with someone to show off their superiority, advertise how great they are, but only so they can go "nyah! nyah! you can't have me!" and play other similar games. They usually like to keep things at home quiet so will often have an exceptionally tolerant docile (and/or terrified) family that they keep fairly isolated.
Look on the bright side - at least you aren't part of that family.
Some people are just evil, but unfortunately evil doesn't have labels so you can take a long time to figure it out, plus it can have its attractions if you're lonely, bored, temporarily weak, self-hating, brainwashed, or a fixer. Learn to be strong and not let evil people creep into your life or stay there.
posted by meepmeow at 10:24 AM on September 30, 2010 [2 favorites]
I can't believe noones told you the truth yet: You were never in a real relationship with this person. You were just intellectual fuck buddies. Sorry but that's your framing.
Mantra : Don't be dragged, be driven.
posted by WeekendJen at 10:27 AM on September 30, 2010 [2 favorites]
Mantra : Don't be dragged, be driven.
posted by WeekendJen at 10:27 AM on September 30, 2010 [2 favorites]
I can't believe noones told you the truth yet: You were never in a real relationship with this person.
This. Sorry, that sounds awful, and it's probably hard to face. But it's actually good news, because it means that you're already free - you have nothing to extricate yourself from, and you can cut all ties to this poisonous person right this second.
A friend of mine was involved in something very like this, for years. We actually dated, briefly, and then she freaked out and broke up with me and I couldn't figure out why. It later turned out that she was still in a non-relationship with an engaged guy, she had been for years, she was organizing her life around him and so couldn't let herself get into a functional relationship with someone else. Instead she dated a string of borderline abusive guys, because she knew those relationships were doomed to failure. Five years later she's finally pulled away from him and is ready to actually live her life. Good for her. You can do the same.
Here's what you do - 1. Recognize that you can't change the past. I know you know this intellectually, but, really, there's nothing for you to figure out here. He's a shitty guy. Some people are like that. It makes the world seem better to make him into a puzzle to crack, or someone who could be wonderful if only you did the right thing, because that lets you avoid the simple, uncomfortable truth: some people are just shitty. They are. Time to deal with today, not yesterday. So: 2 - don't contact him today. That's all. If you think you're going to, go do something else. If he contacts you, delete the email/text without reading, throw the letter unread into the trash, don't answer the phone, etc. That's it. Now all you have to do is just not contact him today, and promise yourself you won't tomorrow. And then do the same tomorrow. If people with a chemical dependency on alcohol can do it, you can certainly ditch this worthless asshole.
posted by Ragged Richard at 10:52 AM on September 30, 2010 [2 favorites]
This. Sorry, that sounds awful, and it's probably hard to face. But it's actually good news, because it means that you're already free - you have nothing to extricate yourself from, and you can cut all ties to this poisonous person right this second.
A friend of mine was involved in something very like this, for years. We actually dated, briefly, and then she freaked out and broke up with me and I couldn't figure out why. It later turned out that she was still in a non-relationship with an engaged guy, she had been for years, she was organizing her life around him and so couldn't let herself get into a functional relationship with someone else. Instead she dated a string of borderline abusive guys, because she knew those relationships were doomed to failure. Five years later she's finally pulled away from him and is ready to actually live her life. Good for her. You can do the same.
Here's what you do - 1. Recognize that you can't change the past. I know you know this intellectually, but, really, there's nothing for you to figure out here. He's a shitty guy. Some people are like that. It makes the world seem better to make him into a puzzle to crack, or someone who could be wonderful if only you did the right thing, because that lets you avoid the simple, uncomfortable truth: some people are just shitty. They are. Time to deal with today, not yesterday. So: 2 - don't contact him today. That's all. If you think you're going to, go do something else. If he contacts you, delete the email/text without reading, throw the letter unread into the trash, don't answer the phone, etc. That's it. Now all you have to do is just not contact him today, and promise yourself you won't tomorrow. And then do the same tomorrow. If people with a chemical dependency on alcohol can do it, you can certainly ditch this worthless asshole.
posted by Ragged Richard at 10:52 AM on September 30, 2010 [2 favorites]
Ouisch: "But children are unwilling, completely innocent bystanders in this game. His communication with you inevitably will have an effect on his family, children included. Even if he keeps it totally secret.
I would refuse, absolutely refuse, to be involved in anything that had the potential to harm children."
Though I appreciate the concern, if such behavior remains private and not excessively time-consuming, I don't see how it affects this guy's wife or children. I'm by no means condoning (nor admonishing, I don't know the nature of their relationship) this guy's behavior, but people should be allowed to have a private fantasy life, shouldn't they? I think how this gent treated the OP is horrid, but I think "won't someone think of the children" is a bit overkill.
Sorry, that was a bit of a derail. The relevant point is that you should deal with this on your own terms; I don't think you bear any responsibility for potential harm to his family.
posted by Cogito at 11:50 AM on September 30, 2010
I would refuse, absolutely refuse, to be involved in anything that had the potential to harm children."
Though I appreciate the concern, if such behavior remains private and not excessively time-consuming, I don't see how it affects this guy's wife or children. I'm by no means condoning (nor admonishing, I don't know the nature of their relationship) this guy's behavior, but people should be allowed to have a private fantasy life, shouldn't they? I think how this gent treated the OP is horrid, but I think "won't someone think of the children" is a bit overkill.
Sorry, that was a bit of a derail. The relevant point is that you should deal with this on your own terms; I don't think you bear any responsibility for potential harm to his family.
posted by Cogito at 11:50 AM on September 30, 2010
"I don't see how it affects this guy's wife or children....people should be allowed to have a private fantasy life, shouldn't they?"
Cogito, I'm having trouble seeing how dozens of emails a week shared between people with a 20-year history could be considered a "fantasy life." Obviously the guy has dedicated a good amount of time to keeping up this correspondence with the OP, time he should probably be spending with his wife and children or earning a living. Of course there's no guarantee that he would actually do the decent thing if OP cut off contact with him, but I wouldn't dismiss the connection between the time he's spending on OP and the time he's NOT spending with his family. If I were the OP, I wouldn't want that on my conscience.
posted by keep it under cover at 1:21 PM on September 30, 2010 [1 favorite]
Cogito, I'm having trouble seeing how dozens of emails a week shared between people with a 20-year history could be considered a "fantasy life." Obviously the guy has dedicated a good amount of time to keeping up this correspondence with the OP, time he should probably be spending with his wife and children or earning a living. Of course there's no guarantee that he would actually do the decent thing if OP cut off contact with him, but I wouldn't dismiss the connection between the time he's spending on OP and the time he's NOT spending with his family. If I were the OP, I wouldn't want that on my conscience.
posted by keep it under cover at 1:21 PM on September 30, 2010 [1 favorite]
To clarify - Rather than a "fantasy life," it all seems pretty real life to me, with real life consequences.
posted by keep it under cover at 1:21 PM on September 30, 2010
posted by keep it under cover at 1:21 PM on September 30, 2010
keep it under cover: "To clarify - Rather than a "fantasy life," it all seems pretty real life to me, with real life consequences"
It sounds like in the past, these people had been actually connected but the chances of them ever meeting again has been nil for some time. That's what makes me think of all this correspondence as essentially a fantasy.
I guess we really don't know how much time this guy spends corresponding with the OP (which is why I mentioned "not excessively time-consuming"), but if we replaced all that time with him perusing porn online, or playing WoW or whatever, is it really any different so long as it remains private? If someone did SCA for 5 hours a week would we suggest that they are harming their family?
Don't get me wrong, I think the guy is a sleaze for the way he's treated the OP, but I think it's also important to keep things in perspective and (for the sake of her desired framing) see things for what they are.
posted by Cogito at 2:06 PM on September 30, 2010
It sounds like in the past, these people had been actually connected but the chances of them ever meeting again has been nil for some time. That's what makes me think of all this correspondence as essentially a fantasy.
I guess we really don't know how much time this guy spends corresponding with the OP (which is why I mentioned "not excessively time-consuming"), but if we replaced all that time with him perusing porn online, or playing WoW or whatever, is it really any different so long as it remains private? If someone did SCA for 5 hours a week would we suggest that they are harming their family?
Don't get me wrong, I think the guy is a sleaze for the way he's treated the OP, but I think it's also important to keep things in perspective and (for the sake of her desired framing) see things for what they are.
posted by Cogito at 2:06 PM on September 30, 2010
I guess I just feel like the "emotional infidelity" aspect of the whole thing is more important than the time spent on the correspondence.
Not that he's not just going to go off and do the same thing with someone else, but I, personally, would not want to be the other participant in an emotional fling with a guy who has a wife and kids.
posted by Ouisch at 2:51 PM on September 30, 2010 [1 favorite]
Not that he's not just going to go off and do the same thing with someone else, but I, personally, would not want to be the other participant in an emotional fling with a guy who has a wife and kids.
posted by Ouisch at 2:51 PM on September 30, 2010 [1 favorite]
Well Cogito, I guess we differ in what we'd consider to be okay in a monogamous relationship.
Speaking for myself, I couldn't care less if my boyfriend fantasizes about models, actresses or singers. Whatever happens is 100% in his own head, hence the term "fantasy." But the second he starts interacting with a live person, it ceases being a fantasy. Instead, he is sharing and acting out his fantasies with that person instead of with me, and is cultivating a sexual relationship with someone outside of our relationship. For me, that would be unacceptable. And if this other person was also an on-again/off-again old flame of his, someone who he had actually been sexually intimate with in the past, I'd say that continuing to characterize this as a mere fantasy would be an even further stretch.
Most women I know would agree with me. Perhaps I'm reading you wrong, but I strongly disagree with your assertion that as long as the wife is kept in the dark, no one's getting hurt besides OP. Unless this man is a pure sociopath, there is no way that this has not had any noticeable effect on his home life. These things always ripple and spill over. Ask anyone who's been with a serial cheater. I think OP agrees too, seeing as how her discovery of the guy's marriage and kids pretty much dumped cold water all over the "fantasy."
As for keeping things in perspective and seeing things for what they are, well clearly OP is having trouble seeing this a-hole for what he is from her own perspective. Hence this AskMe, asking for other perspectives on this relationship so she can finally take this douche off the pedestal and put him out of her life for good. If she is able to put herself in the wife's shoes and see this man from the perspective of the woman he "chose" over her, knowing what she knows now, I hope the OP will be able to see that she dodged a huge bullet.
posted by keep it under cover at 3:30 PM on September 30, 2010 [1 favorite]
Speaking for myself, I couldn't care less if my boyfriend fantasizes about models, actresses or singers. Whatever happens is 100% in his own head, hence the term "fantasy." But the second he starts interacting with a live person, it ceases being a fantasy. Instead, he is sharing and acting out his fantasies with that person instead of with me, and is cultivating a sexual relationship with someone outside of our relationship. For me, that would be unacceptable. And if this other person was also an on-again/off-again old flame of his, someone who he had actually been sexually intimate with in the past, I'd say that continuing to characterize this as a mere fantasy would be an even further stretch.
Most women I know would agree with me. Perhaps I'm reading you wrong, but I strongly disagree with your assertion that as long as the wife is kept in the dark, no one's getting hurt besides OP. Unless this man is a pure sociopath, there is no way that this has not had any noticeable effect on his home life. These things always ripple and spill over. Ask anyone who's been with a serial cheater. I think OP agrees too, seeing as how her discovery of the guy's marriage and kids pretty much dumped cold water all over the "fantasy."
As for keeping things in perspective and seeing things for what they are, well clearly OP is having trouble seeing this a-hole for what he is from her own perspective. Hence this AskMe, asking for other perspectives on this relationship so she can finally take this douche off the pedestal and put him out of her life for good. If she is able to put herself in the wife's shoes and see this man from the perspective of the woman he "chose" over her, knowing what she knows now, I hope the OP will be able to see that she dodged a huge bullet.
posted by keep it under cover at 3:30 PM on September 30, 2010 [1 favorite]
I think I've not made my point very well. Is this guy's behavior with respect to his wife and children OK? No, I don't think so*. But I think for the OP's purposes, it's actually irrelevant, and distracts from why she should feel empowered to cut the guy out: not because he involved her in something bad (which would cause guilt for the OP, presumably) but because he treat the OP badly.
Let's say for the sake of argument that this other guy was in an open marriage where this behavior was 100% OK but he was lying to OP because he knew she wouldn't be OK with it. Would that make his behavior toward OP any more acceptable? I don't think so. I think the answer to her internal why should be that "this guy is a lying asshole", not "I'm hurting the children".
My objection was introducing a knee-jerk sort of concern (i.e., child welfare**) when I found it distracting from the actual issue with respect to the OP.
* Though I try not to assume anything about what's OK in another person's relationship because that's totally up to those people.
** Not that child welfare isn't hugely important. Oh, God, I'll just stop now.
posted by Cogito at 4:40 PM on September 30, 2010
Let's say for the sake of argument that this other guy was in an open marriage where this behavior was 100% OK but he was lying to OP because he knew she wouldn't be OK with it. Would that make his behavior toward OP any more acceptable? I don't think so. I think the answer to her internal why should be that "this guy is a lying asshole", not "I'm hurting the children".
My objection was introducing a knee-jerk sort of concern (i.e., child welfare**) when I found it distracting from the actual issue with respect to the OP.
* Though I try not to assume anything about what's OK in another person's relationship because that's totally up to those people.
** Not that child welfare isn't hugely important. Oh, God, I'll just stop now.
posted by Cogito at 4:40 PM on September 30, 2010
Mod note: folks, this derail pretty much needs to stop now, thanks
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 5:17 PM on September 30, 2010
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 5:17 PM on September 30, 2010
How about 'It wasn't me" "It's over now" and "Time to move on..."
N-thing what others have said about this guy's character. Perhaps not deliberately an ass, but in the long run, that's exactly what his demonstrated behavior reads like. It didn't work out (particularly since he never laid his cards on the table, never told you what he was really thinking, or what was really going on. Makes for an mysterious romance, but a terrible real relationship) and now you're left with the pieces.
Try and find a way to forgive yourself. Write down your thoughts, meditate, make ripped up magazine collages or whatever you feel like doing to put this behind you. Remember the quote that "Living well is the best revenge".
posted by everyday_naturalist at 4:37 AM on October 3, 2010
N-thing what others have said about this guy's character. Perhaps not deliberately an ass, but in the long run, that's exactly what his demonstrated behavior reads like. It didn't work out (particularly since he never laid his cards on the table, never told you what he was really thinking, or what was really going on. Makes for an mysterious romance, but a terrible real relationship) and now you're left with the pieces.
Try and find a way to forgive yourself. Write down your thoughts, meditate, make ripped up magazine collages or whatever you feel like doing to put this behind you. Remember the quote that "Living well is the best revenge".
posted by everyday_naturalist at 4:37 AM on October 3, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by joelhunt at 9:14 PM on September 29, 2010 [7 favorites]