Can we prevent our grandfather from being taken advantage of?
September 19, 2010 10:14 AM Subscribe
We need some guidance in regards to preventing our elderly grandfather from being taken advantage of.
YANML, YANMA, etc. Apologies for length. I searched the archives but found nothing similar – please direct me if I missed something pertinent. It is surely possible that I don’t know the right terms to use to get good results.
Our 90-something grandfather is well-set financially. He owns a home in the state in which my brother and I live, and a second home in Idaho. Up until this year, he spent the summers in ID and returned to our state in the fall.
Gramps is getting slower and having some trouble caring for himself, but he is still mentally spry. He has no living children. Both of his deceased children’s spouses are living (our Uncle and Mother), and he is relatively close to both. He is very close to my brother, who is on Gramps’ bank accounts and cares for the home in our state when Gramps is away. Neither of us live in the house, or even anywhere near it, but it is important to Brother that Gramps’ home is well maintained in Gramps’ absence.
Earlier this year, Uncle (Gramps’ son in law) brought up, with Brother, placing Gramps in assisted living. Moving in this direction seemed prudent, and Brother discussed it with Gramps, who was amenable to having meals delivered and considered looking into in-home help. Gramps was somewhat resistant to committing to the assisted living facility, however. As far as we know, Uncle never discussed this with Gramps at all.
Shortly after Gramps (and Uncle, who is also divides his time between states) returned to ID this year, a problem was discovered in the ID home that rendered it unlivable during repair. This remodel/repair was taken, by Uncle, as an opportunity to move Gramps into an Assisted Living facility without consulting any other family members, or (it appears) Gramps himself. The story becomes unclear at this point – Brother and I aren’t sure if the assisted living facility was misrepresented to Gramps or if he was in denial about it. Either way, he moved in – but called the facility a “hotel” for many weeks and expected to move home after the remodel was finished. He did, however, eventually sign a lease and consented to stay permanently. He seems happy there, his spirits have greatly improved, and no one thinks he should move back to his home.
The problem, then, lies with Uncle. Uncle has commenced treating Gramps poorly (speaking to him like a child and not consulting Gramps about important topics, among other things- none blatantly abusive, that we know of), and has repeatedly referred to Gramps as “incompetent.” It is my understanding that Gramps has not officially been declared incompetent by a court or a physician. We know of the mistreatment because we witnessed it first hand during a visit to see Gramps after his move to assisted living.
Uncle has now taken over Gramps’ finances, has power of attorney, and has been added on to at least one of Gramps’ bank accounts. Presumably, Uncle is paying Gramps’ bills (mortgages, etc) with Gramps’ money, but we are not sure. Since this time, Gramps has deferred every single decision (financial and otherwise) to Uncle, and when Brother suggested that a neutral third party handle Gramps’ personal finances instead of Uncle, Gramps stated “I can’t do that, it would hurt Uncle’s feelings.” Gramps has mentioned to Brother (several times) that he is interested in selling some of his assets (the real estate, a car, etc), but Uncle has told him that he can not because they are named in Gramps’ will, which Gramps is not willing to change.
Recently, Uncle told Brother that he was no longer free to make decisions in regards to Gramps’ home, the one that Gramps has entrusted to Brother’s care for many years. This occurred just a few weeks after Gramps asked Brother to look into readying the house for renters (since it can not be sold, according to Uncle). Uncle has also made it very clear that he is unwilling to discuss anything at all, financial or otherwise, with Brother or I in regards to Gramps.
We have a strong suspicion that Uncle is using his position of power to manipulate the situation and possibly get/steal/coerce more money out of Gramps (or, potentially, his estate, when he does pass away). No other family members live in ID, and it is suspicious that the move to assisted living occurred directly after moving back to ID for the summer. Additionally, Gramps told brother that Uncle recently convinced him to add Uncles’ children (Gramps’ step-grandchildren) to his will – a fact that does not inspire confidence that there are pure motives here.
It is of no concern to us what Gramps does with his money, both now and after his death (so long as he continues to live in the manner in which he worked hard to attain, which should not be a problem unless the money is mismanaged). We feel strongly that he is competent and able to make his own decisions. Our concern is that he is being taken advantage of (and treated like a mushroom, as Brother puts it). Uncle has mentioned several times that Gramps is “running out of money,” or “doesn’t have enough money” which seems very strange, given Brother’s (albeit limited) knowledge of the financial situation (from prior to Uncle taking over – Brother does not know how to check the accounts aside from going into the bank, which he has not yet done). Uncle is very careful to ensure that there are no checks and balances going on – he refuses to discuss the situation with anyone, particularly Brother. Brother feels strongly that if he were to check on the bank accounts and call this to Uncle’s attention, Brother would find himself removed from the accounts immediately (if this has not already happened).
We stand to gain nothing from this situation – aside from the new addition of Gramps’ step-grandchildren, we know nothing of the contents of the will, nor do we have any interest in knowing. Brother and I would simply feel more comfortable if Gramps’ finances were handled by a closely monitored independent third party, but we do not know how to make this happen (or even if it is possible).
What power does Uncle have at this point? What can we do, from our state, to help prevent mis-management of funds and potential abuse of power? Is it possible that Brother could be removed from bank accounts without his knowledge? Can large transfers of money or account closures occur without his knowledge? Brother is inclined to wash his hands of the situation and let Uncle do whatever he wants, but there is a lingering concern that Gramps will be bled dry and left unable to maintain his current lifestyle.
As a side note, it is currently believed that Uncle is also well-set financially, but one can never be certain.
Throwaway email: grampaisntamushroom@hotmail.com
YANML, YANMA, etc. Apologies for length. I searched the archives but found nothing similar – please direct me if I missed something pertinent. It is surely possible that I don’t know the right terms to use to get good results.
Our 90-something grandfather is well-set financially. He owns a home in the state in which my brother and I live, and a second home in Idaho. Up until this year, he spent the summers in ID and returned to our state in the fall.
Gramps is getting slower and having some trouble caring for himself, but he is still mentally spry. He has no living children. Both of his deceased children’s spouses are living (our Uncle and Mother), and he is relatively close to both. He is very close to my brother, who is on Gramps’ bank accounts and cares for the home in our state when Gramps is away. Neither of us live in the house, or even anywhere near it, but it is important to Brother that Gramps’ home is well maintained in Gramps’ absence.
Earlier this year, Uncle (Gramps’ son in law) brought up, with Brother, placing Gramps in assisted living. Moving in this direction seemed prudent, and Brother discussed it with Gramps, who was amenable to having meals delivered and considered looking into in-home help. Gramps was somewhat resistant to committing to the assisted living facility, however. As far as we know, Uncle never discussed this with Gramps at all.
Shortly after Gramps (and Uncle, who is also divides his time between states) returned to ID this year, a problem was discovered in the ID home that rendered it unlivable during repair. This remodel/repair was taken, by Uncle, as an opportunity to move Gramps into an Assisted Living facility without consulting any other family members, or (it appears) Gramps himself. The story becomes unclear at this point – Brother and I aren’t sure if the assisted living facility was misrepresented to Gramps or if he was in denial about it. Either way, he moved in – but called the facility a “hotel” for many weeks and expected to move home after the remodel was finished. He did, however, eventually sign a lease and consented to stay permanently. He seems happy there, his spirits have greatly improved, and no one thinks he should move back to his home.
The problem, then, lies with Uncle. Uncle has commenced treating Gramps poorly (speaking to him like a child and not consulting Gramps about important topics, among other things- none blatantly abusive, that we know of), and has repeatedly referred to Gramps as “incompetent.” It is my understanding that Gramps has not officially been declared incompetent by a court or a physician. We know of the mistreatment because we witnessed it first hand during a visit to see Gramps after his move to assisted living.
Uncle has now taken over Gramps’ finances, has power of attorney, and has been added on to at least one of Gramps’ bank accounts. Presumably, Uncle is paying Gramps’ bills (mortgages, etc) with Gramps’ money, but we are not sure. Since this time, Gramps has deferred every single decision (financial and otherwise) to Uncle, and when Brother suggested that a neutral third party handle Gramps’ personal finances instead of Uncle, Gramps stated “I can’t do that, it would hurt Uncle’s feelings.” Gramps has mentioned to Brother (several times) that he is interested in selling some of his assets (the real estate, a car, etc), but Uncle has told him that he can not because they are named in Gramps’ will, which Gramps is not willing to change.
Recently, Uncle told Brother that he was no longer free to make decisions in regards to Gramps’ home, the one that Gramps has entrusted to Brother’s care for many years. This occurred just a few weeks after Gramps asked Brother to look into readying the house for renters (since it can not be sold, according to Uncle). Uncle has also made it very clear that he is unwilling to discuss anything at all, financial or otherwise, with Brother or I in regards to Gramps.
We have a strong suspicion that Uncle is using his position of power to manipulate the situation and possibly get/steal/coerce more money out of Gramps (or, potentially, his estate, when he does pass away). No other family members live in ID, and it is suspicious that the move to assisted living occurred directly after moving back to ID for the summer. Additionally, Gramps told brother that Uncle recently convinced him to add Uncles’ children (Gramps’ step-grandchildren) to his will – a fact that does not inspire confidence that there are pure motives here.
It is of no concern to us what Gramps does with his money, both now and after his death (so long as he continues to live in the manner in which he worked hard to attain, which should not be a problem unless the money is mismanaged). We feel strongly that he is competent and able to make his own decisions. Our concern is that he is being taken advantage of (and treated like a mushroom, as Brother puts it). Uncle has mentioned several times that Gramps is “running out of money,” or “doesn’t have enough money” which seems very strange, given Brother’s (albeit limited) knowledge of the financial situation (from prior to Uncle taking over – Brother does not know how to check the accounts aside from going into the bank, which he has not yet done). Uncle is very careful to ensure that there are no checks and balances going on – he refuses to discuss the situation with anyone, particularly Brother. Brother feels strongly that if he were to check on the bank accounts and call this to Uncle’s attention, Brother would find himself removed from the accounts immediately (if this has not already happened).
We stand to gain nothing from this situation – aside from the new addition of Gramps’ step-grandchildren, we know nothing of the contents of the will, nor do we have any interest in knowing. Brother and I would simply feel more comfortable if Gramps’ finances were handled by a closely monitored independent third party, but we do not know how to make this happen (or even if it is possible).
What power does Uncle have at this point? What can we do, from our state, to help prevent mis-management of funds and potential abuse of power? Is it possible that Brother could be removed from bank accounts without his knowledge? Can large transfers of money or account closures occur without his knowledge? Brother is inclined to wash his hands of the situation and let Uncle do whatever he wants, but there is a lingering concern that Gramps will be bled dry and left unable to maintain his current lifestyle.
As a side note, it is currently believed that Uncle is also well-set financially, but one can never be certain.
Throwaway email: grampaisntamushroom@hotmail.com
Whew, I'm gonna say that there's a lot that we don't know here. On the face of it, it sounds like there may be something hinky going on, but it's hard to tell because it appears that you and Brother have fairly absolved yourselves of responsibility. The way I'm reading it, Uncle is having to make all the decisions and deal with all of the issues while you and Brother kind of pop in every once in awhile and make suggestions. Note that Brother is not concerned enough to learn how to check the bank account.
Gramps does not appear to have any blood kin and Uncle is the one stepping up. Of course, adding his kids to the will sounds a little weird based on what you've written, but we only have one side of the story. If Uncle is truly intransigent about discussing anything with either of you (and you think he should), either iron that shit out personally or start looking forward to retaining a lawyer. At the end of the day, it seems apparent that you/Bro and Uncle have some serious communication issues that may cause this whole thing to eventually devolve into a shitstorm regardless of what you do.
posted by rhizome at 10:58 AM on September 19, 2010
Gramps does not appear to have any blood kin and Uncle is the one stepping up. Of course, adding his kids to the will sounds a little weird based on what you've written, but we only have one side of the story. If Uncle is truly intransigent about discussing anything with either of you (and you think he should), either iron that shit out personally or start looking forward to retaining a lawyer. At the end of the day, it seems apparent that you/Bro and Uncle have some serious communication issues that may cause this whole thing to eventually devolve into a shitstorm regardless of what you do.
posted by rhizome at 10:58 AM on September 19, 2010
I would start by contacting the local social services. They will be able to direct you to the necessary resources. Wish I could be more helpful...
posted by bluefrog at 10:59 AM on September 19, 2010
posted by bluefrog at 10:59 AM on September 19, 2010
No matter what Gramp's will says, as long as Gramps is still alive, he can sell & dispose of anything he wants in any way that he wants. Uncle has absolutely no say in that as long as he has not had Gramps declared incompetent. Gramps could give the home in Idaho to me, for that matter (and I promise to take good care of it!). After he dies, the will and its provisions kick in not before.
Trust me that I understand what you are going through & I truly do feel for you--so if you truly meant that it is of no concern what Gramps does with his money/estate, etc. get used to the fact that he seems to have decided that Uncle will run his affairs.
You & your brother have two main choices: if you feel that Uncle is truly abusing his position with power of attorney or is not being fiduciarily responsible, then both talk to Grams and to an attorney that Gramps trusts--surely there is one (or a firm) that has handled his affairs in the past. If you have reason to suspect that Uncle is being irresponsible or taking advantage of Gramps, there may be some recourse to make him show an accounting, but again, as long as Gramps is alive, you probably have no standing. After his death, if you & brother are named in the will, you do have standing to have Uncle removed as executor, unless Unk has already had Gramps put everything in a living trust so that it passes to him without probate. I strongly suggest you seek legal advice with or without Gramps.
Or, if Gramps is unwilling to change for any reason, then repeat after me "It is of no concern to us what Gramps does with his money, both now and after his death."
posted by beelzbubba at 11:02 AM on September 19, 2010
Trust me that I understand what you are going through & I truly do feel for you--so if you truly meant that it is of no concern what Gramps does with his money/estate, etc. get used to the fact that he seems to have decided that Uncle will run his affairs.
You & your brother have two main choices: if you feel that Uncle is truly abusing his position with power of attorney or is not being fiduciarily responsible, then both talk to Grams and to an attorney that Gramps trusts--surely there is one (or a firm) that has handled his affairs in the past. If you have reason to suspect that Uncle is being irresponsible or taking advantage of Gramps, there may be some recourse to make him show an accounting, but again, as long as Gramps is alive, you probably have no standing. After his death, if you & brother are named in the will, you do have standing to have Uncle removed as executor, unless Unk has already had Gramps put everything in a living trust so that it passes to him without probate. I strongly suggest you seek legal advice with or without Gramps.
Or, if Gramps is unwilling to change for any reason, then repeat after me "It is of no concern to us what Gramps does with his money, both now and after his death."
posted by beelzbubba at 11:02 AM on September 19, 2010
If it were me, I'd hire an elder care lawyer. Now. Not because of money, because if your suspicions are correct, and Uncle is siphoning money off, he might be doing it to get Gramps on Medicaid, with the eventual goal of moving him to a Medicaid home and saving the $3K/mo or whatever his assisted living costs. You don't want this, especially if Gramps is still there mentally.
Worst case scenario? You bet. Uncommon? Nope.
posted by Leta at 11:10 AM on September 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
Worst case scenario? You bet. Uncommon? Nope.
posted by Leta at 11:10 AM on September 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
My Grandma trusted my Aunt with all of her finances, estate, etc. when she was first diagnosed with cancer.
The first thing Aunt did was cut Mom and the rest of us out of the information loop. Then she moved Grandma out of her house of many decades (small, easy to clean, central) for "renovation" and put her in a half-built room Aunt was having added to her own home (with Grandma's money, we found out later).
The next thing she did was funnel Grandma's money to her own accounts and projects, leaving Grandma's responsibilities to hang (guaranteeing estate freeze after Grandma's death). Another late discovery was the use of Grandma's checks for fraudulent purposes.
Then she started reporting to the rest of us that Grandma had become insufferably recalcitrant and argumentative, firing health aides one after the other, and that it wasn't a good idea for anyone to be visiting her because it just made it worse. We don't know how much of that is true.
The next time we saw Grandma, she was two days from passing and heartsick from the realisation of what had been done with all she'd worked to obtain. There was a further ugly scene involving all three daughters and her ex-husband around her bed the day before she passed related to getting her to release certain other assets.
Grandma originally thought Aunt had her best interests at heart and would never do any of these things. She had no idea we'd been told not to visit, amongst other things.
The point of my random little anecdote is this: there's no way to know if Uncle is behaving in an aboveboard fashion and Grandpa may well be in the dark about Uncle's doings. If there is a way to contact an elder care representative for your state/his municipality, please do that. Best case scenario is that everything's fine and it's verified as such. Worst case scenario, you'll be helping Grandpa protect his way of life for however much of it remains. Win-win, either way.
posted by batmonkey at 11:16 AM on September 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
The first thing Aunt did was cut Mom and the rest of us out of the information loop. Then she moved Grandma out of her house of many decades (small, easy to clean, central) for "renovation" and put her in a half-built room Aunt was having added to her own home (with Grandma's money, we found out later).
The next thing she did was funnel Grandma's money to her own accounts and projects, leaving Grandma's responsibilities to hang (guaranteeing estate freeze after Grandma's death). Another late discovery was the use of Grandma's checks for fraudulent purposes.
Then she started reporting to the rest of us that Grandma had become insufferably recalcitrant and argumentative, firing health aides one after the other, and that it wasn't a good idea for anyone to be visiting her because it just made it worse. We don't know how much of that is true.
The next time we saw Grandma, she was two days from passing and heartsick from the realisation of what had been done with all she'd worked to obtain. There was a further ugly scene involving all three daughters and her ex-husband around her bed the day before she passed related to getting her to release certain other assets.
Grandma originally thought Aunt had her best interests at heart and would never do any of these things. She had no idea we'd been told not to visit, amongst other things.
The point of my random little anecdote is this: there's no way to know if Uncle is behaving in an aboveboard fashion and Grandpa may well be in the dark about Uncle's doings. If there is a way to contact an elder care representative for your state/his municipality, please do that. Best case scenario is that everything's fine and it's verified as such. Worst case scenario, you'll be helping Grandpa protect his way of life for however much of it remains. Win-win, either way.
posted by batmonkey at 11:16 AM on September 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
Get professional advice on how to proceed exactly, but I suggest approaching Grampa directly and pointing out how irregular the situation is. Of course you'll be kind and respectful, as always. Use documentation. Provide third-party neutral options for Grampa to consider.
You're right. No one self-interested person should be in charge of Grampa's estate and finances for Grampa's own continued well-being. It is suspicious he has been told he can not sell assets when this is untrue. It is suspicious he has been moved away from his primary home and loved ones. He SHOULD want to see the status of his accounts ASAP.
Does Grampa know there is suddenly a total lack of transparency concerning his situation? Approached from that perspective, I can't see how you can go wrong here.
Something like this happened to my Grandfather. It didn't end well. He was very sad when he realized he had been completely fleeced and died soon after the situation came to light.
Please get involved.
posted by jbenben at 5:39 PM on September 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
You're right. No one self-interested person should be in charge of Grampa's estate and finances for Grampa's own continued well-being. It is suspicious he has been told he can not sell assets when this is untrue. It is suspicious he has been moved away from his primary home and loved ones. He SHOULD want to see the status of his accounts ASAP.
Does Grampa know there is suddenly a total lack of transparency concerning his situation? Approached from that perspective, I can't see how you can go wrong here.
Something like this happened to my Grandfather. It didn't end well. He was very sad when he realized he had been completely fleeced and died soon after the situation came to light.
Please get involved.
posted by jbenben at 5:39 PM on September 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
I know all about this sort of situation. My Uncle was wealthy and lived several states away from me. I always had it in the back of my mind that he would remember me in his will because I was his only living "blood" relative. His deceased wife's nephew "took over" when my Uncle got quite old. Despite this, I still (very naively) thought I would/could stand to inherit. I was too squeamish to ever bring anything up about finances directly with my Uncle--I knew it would look as if I did not care for him, but cared for his money (which was not true). I hoped he'd set something aside for me...(he had no children of his own), but I also knew what he did with his estate was not up to me.
As he got older I got more concerned (he started sounding less with it on the phone) but still, I wasn't about to give up my life and fly to his state to see what was what. That proved to be my fatal error--because the neighbor and the wife's nephew cleaned up 100%. I found out later that I was named in a previous will, but that the neighbor and wife's nephew got my Uncle to sign off on them. I questioned all this retroactively, but I am sure you can guess what I was told. Those people were there with my Uncle and I was not. Sort of a "you snooze, you lose" situation.
If I had it to do over again I would have tried very hard to find a way to talk to my Uncle about his finances. You are worried about looking mercenary to him...and rightfully so, but if you want to find out if he is being financially exploited you do have to go there and question him. That's the way it is. You have to get used to the fact that it may look "untoward" as if you are after something. Let's be honest, you are probably something like me..with some hope that your Grandpa might have made a provision for you. It is not a crazy idea, as a matter of fact, it is usual for family money to come down through bloodlines. People get "cut out" very easily and even more easily if they are worried about looking bad. There are ways to inquire without looking greedy. You have to spend time with the Grandpa. You need to go there. If you learn what you suspect is true (it is called undue influence) you will be able to contact protective services and go from there. I wish I would have had the moxie to do this in my situation...as it is the "neighbor" got all my family money.
posted by naplesyellow at 9:49 PM on September 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
As he got older I got more concerned (he started sounding less with it on the phone) but still, I wasn't about to give up my life and fly to his state to see what was what. That proved to be my fatal error--because the neighbor and the wife's nephew cleaned up 100%. I found out later that I was named in a previous will, but that the neighbor and wife's nephew got my Uncle to sign off on them. I questioned all this retroactively, but I am sure you can guess what I was told. Those people were there with my Uncle and I was not. Sort of a "you snooze, you lose" situation.
If I had it to do over again I would have tried very hard to find a way to talk to my Uncle about his finances. You are worried about looking mercenary to him...and rightfully so, but if you want to find out if he is being financially exploited you do have to go there and question him. That's the way it is. You have to get used to the fact that it may look "untoward" as if you are after something. Let's be honest, you are probably something like me..with some hope that your Grandpa might have made a provision for you. It is not a crazy idea, as a matter of fact, it is usual for family money to come down through bloodlines. People get "cut out" very easily and even more easily if they are worried about looking bad. There are ways to inquire without looking greedy. You have to spend time with the Grandpa. You need to go there. If you learn what you suspect is true (it is called undue influence) you will be able to contact protective services and go from there. I wish I would have had the moxie to do this in my situation...as it is the "neighbor" got all my family money.
posted by naplesyellow at 9:49 PM on September 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
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I'm not really going to be much help here, but you could get in contact with the Idaho Commission on Aging. They should be able to provide an advocate or someone with whom you can talk this situation out and know the details for Idaho. I'm sure, sadly, they've had to deal with that before.
posted by emkelley at 10:55 AM on September 19, 2010