Grammar help: Constructing a question.
September 16, 2010 2:01 PM Subscribe
Grammar help: Constructing a question.
I consider myself to be very good with grammar but I constantly hear intelligent people composing questions the following way and it sounds very wrong to me:
"Tell me what is your educational background?"
"Let me ask you what is your name"?
And so on...
It sounds like people are asking a question with a question. And it sounds awkward. Am I wrong about this?
I also learned in school that you don't end a sentence with a preposition. So is a sentence like "Where are you from?" incorrect?
I consider myself to be very good with grammar but I constantly hear intelligent people composing questions the following way and it sounds very wrong to me:
"Tell me what is your educational background?"
"Let me ask you what is your name"?
And so on...
It sounds like people are asking a question with a question. And it sounds awkward. Am I wrong about this?
I also learned in school that you don't end a sentence with a preposition. So is a sentence like "Where are you from?" incorrect?
Or you could say, as a statement "Tell me what your educational background is", and this is what I would choose, since both your examples sound rather awkward. I would prefer to say "May I ask what your name is?" as well.
posted by sunshinesky at 2:05 PM on September 16, 2010
posted by sunshinesky at 2:05 PM on September 16, 2010
Agree on the missing comma. On the topic of stranded prepositions:
Language log
Motivated grammar
Short version: it's fine to end a sentence with a preposition. Blame Dryden for having a bug up his ass about Ben Jonson.
posted by Paragon at 2:08 PM on September 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
Language log
Motivated grammar
Short version: it's fine to end a sentence with a preposition. Blame Dryden for having a bug up his ass about Ben Jonson.
posted by Paragon at 2:08 PM on September 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
Fluff. How about ... (in a friendly tone of voice, of course)
Tell me about your education.
What is your name?
posted by bright77blue at 2:10 PM on September 16, 2010
Tell me about your education.
What is your name?
posted by bright77blue at 2:10 PM on September 16, 2010
The rule about not ending sentences with prepositions is, to summarize, a made-up rule. The only reason to observe it is to avoid offending people who believe in it. People routinely break it and that's okay (as in your example, where it sounds better with the preposition at the end). Some examples of breaking this rule sound bad, and those you should avoid - go with your ear.
For the two examples you give, the beginning phrases are sort of introductions to the question, rather than being statements of their own. If you're writing down a sentence like this, you need some punctuation between the two parts of the sentence:
Tell me, what is your educational background?
Let me ask you, what is your name?
You ask whether this sounds awkward. I suppose I would say it sounds like speech, sounds maybe a little informal for writing. In formal writing, you'd probably edit out those introductory phrases, because they're redundant. But redundant phrases are common in speech (like tag questions, eg "It's a nice day, isn't it?") and serve various functions -- like softening what might otherwise seem like a rude or brusque question, or inviting the other person into the conversation.
posted by LobsterMitten at 2:11 PM on September 16, 2010 [4 favorites]
For the two examples you give, the beginning phrases are sort of introductions to the question, rather than being statements of their own. If you're writing down a sentence like this, you need some punctuation between the two parts of the sentence:
Tell me, what is your educational background?
Let me ask you, what is your name?
You ask whether this sounds awkward. I suppose I would say it sounds like speech, sounds maybe a little informal for writing. In formal writing, you'd probably edit out those introductory phrases, because they're redundant. But redundant phrases are common in speech (like tag questions, eg "It's a nice day, isn't it?") and serve various functions -- like softening what might otherwise seem like a rude or brusque question, or inviting the other person into the conversation.
posted by LobsterMitten at 2:11 PM on September 16, 2010 [4 favorites]
I also learned in school that you don't end a sentence with a preposition.
This is something that schools like to teach, for some reason. It's perfectly fine to end a sentence with a preposition.
I also think the questions you mention are constructed correctly - they consist of an initial dependent clause in the imperative (Tell me, Let me...), followed by an independent clause that is a question.
The speaker could just start right in with the question, but lots of times when we're thinking and talking at the same time, our brains fill in with unnecessary words. Also, they act as a conversational softener, a bit more casual than "May I please" but functionally equivalent.
posted by muddgirl at 2:13 PM on September 16, 2010
This is something that schools like to teach, for some reason. It's perfectly fine to end a sentence with a preposition.
I also think the questions you mention are constructed correctly - they consist of an initial dependent clause in the imperative (Tell me, Let me...), followed by an independent clause that is a question.
The speaker could just start right in with the question, but lots of times when we're thinking and talking at the same time, our brains fill in with unnecessary words. Also, they act as a conversational softener, a bit more casual than "May I please" but functionally equivalent.
posted by muddgirl at 2:13 PM on September 16, 2010
Hey, editor here. Ending a sentence with a preposition used to be verboten, but as our language is evolving the "correct" version (From where do you come?) now sounds so awkward that we rarely use it. Nowadays, as long as you are consistent and your sentence makes sense, it's not considered incorrect.
As Churchill is claimed to have said, ""This is the kind of arrant pedantry up with which I will not put!"
posted by chatongriffes at 2:13 PM on September 16, 2010
As Churchill is claimed to have said, ""This is the kind of arrant pedantry up with which I will not put!"
posted by chatongriffes at 2:13 PM on September 16, 2010
...the "correct" version (From where do you come?) now sounds so awkward....
Well, duh. "Whence do you come?" sounds much better.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 2:17 PM on September 16, 2010 [3 favorites]
Well, duh. "Whence do you come?" sounds much better.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 2:17 PM on September 16, 2010 [3 favorites]
Agreed! But, unfortunately, I can't remember the last time I used whence in conversation. I'll have to trot that one out more often.
posted by chatongriffes at 2:21 PM on September 16, 2010
posted by chatongriffes at 2:21 PM on September 16, 2010
It's a kind of phatic speech, along the lines described by LobsterMitten and muddgirl.
One thing I've noticed that differs between US and British spoken English is that British speakers tend to go for longer lead-ups to questions, "sorry to bother you, but..." or "I was wondering if you could tell me...", which is less about politeness than a way to give the person asked a chance to focus on the actual question. It's a verbal throat-clearing, an indication that a question is coming with slightly more notice than "what".
posted by holgate at 2:32 PM on September 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
One thing I've noticed that differs between US and British spoken English is that British speakers tend to go for longer lead-ups to questions, "sorry to bother you, but..." or "I was wondering if you could tell me...", which is less about politeness than a way to give the person asked a chance to focus on the actual question. It's a verbal throat-clearing, an indication that a question is coming with slightly more notice than "what".
posted by holgate at 2:32 PM on September 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
I don't see anything wrong with this as conversational speech. The need for the lead-in is something that will vary regionally or with the class or educational background of the speaker. Some people might consider the question too personal if asked bluntly without a lead-in, so it's "softened" by in effect asking permission to ask the question. On the other hand, to you, it appears it seems superfluous. Just chalk it up to human differences, though, not to any defect in their grammar.
posted by dhartung at 2:51 PM on September 16, 2010
posted by dhartung at 2:51 PM on September 16, 2010
I consider myself to be very good with grammar but I constantly hear intelligent people composing questions the following way and it sounds very wrong to me
The operative word is "hear." You hear them say it, so you're talking about spoken language. Spoken language will never be the same as written language, so it's futile to worry about this.
You're writing out what you hear, and it doesn't look so great as text. But there's no reason to expect it to. Spoken language routinely looks bad when transcribed in writing.
They're not saying, "Tell me what is your educational background?" When you run it together like that, yes it looks bad, but this is because you haven't included any punctuation to evoke their inflection. They're really saying: "Tell me -- what is your educational background?" The "question" part of the sentence is "what is your educational background?" They're just prefacing it with "Tell me --," which is hardly more meaningful than if they were to clear their throat or say "ah" or "so" before asking, "What is your educational background?"
As for ending sentences with a preposition, I highly recommend picking up Style by Joseph W. Williams. I recommend the whole book, but especially pages 18-19, where he explains that ending a sentence with a preposition is technically correct but often undesirable since it leads to weak sentence endings. (Notice that this is the opposite of what many people seem to think -- that ending a sentence with a preposition is perfectly fine in practice though technically incorrect in theory.) Williams quotes The Complete Plain Words by Ernest Gowers (who also edited the vaunted 2nd edition of Fowler's):
The operative word is "hear." You hear them say it, so you're talking about spoken language. Spoken language will never be the same as written language, so it's futile to worry about this.
You're writing out what you hear, and it doesn't look so great as text. But there's no reason to expect it to. Spoken language routinely looks bad when transcribed in writing.
They're not saying, "Tell me what is your educational background?" When you run it together like that, yes it looks bad, but this is because you haven't included any punctuation to evoke their inflection. They're really saying: "Tell me -- what is your educational background?" The "question" part of the sentence is "what is your educational background?" They're just prefacing it with "Tell me --," which is hardly more meaningful than if they were to clear their throat or say "ah" or "so" before asking, "What is your educational background?"
As for ending sentences with a preposition, I highly recommend picking up Style by Joseph W. Williams. I recommend the whole book, but especially pages 18-19, where he explains that ending a sentence with a preposition is technically correct but often undesirable since it leads to weak sentence endings. (Notice that this is the opposite of what many people seem to think -- that ending a sentence with a preposition is perfectly fine in practice though technically incorrect in theory.) Williams quotes The Complete Plain Words by Ernest Gowers (who also edited the vaunted 2nd edition of Fowler's):
The peculiarities of legal English are often used as a stick to beat the official with.posted by John Cohen at 2:59 PM on September 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thanks for the responses. I agree that in writing "Tell me, what is your educational background" looks better because of the comma. But when it's spoken it sounds broken in my opinion. But I get it.
Good to know about the prepositions too.
posted by Liquidwolf at 3:02 PM on September 16, 2010
Good to know about the prepositions too.
posted by Liquidwolf at 3:02 PM on September 16, 2010
A truly formal way to write that sentence might use a colon. "Tell me: What is your educational background?" A more informal way might use an em dash. "Tell me—What is your educational background?"
Ultimately, the point is that people speak this way, so it's part of the language. The written grammar should illustrate and represent that, not the other way around.
posted by dhartung at 4:47 PM on September 16, 2010
Ultimately, the point is that people speak this way, so it's part of the language. The written grammar should illustrate and represent that, not the other way around.
posted by dhartung at 4:47 PM on September 16, 2010
It's very easy, I think, to underestimate how different spoken language and written language need to be in order for them to adequately satisfy their purpose: to communicate effectively. So it's not a matter of informal, oral speech being "wrong", as long as the hearer understands more or less what the speaker is trying to say. It seems to me that a lot of the confusion about rules of grammar are a result of well-meaning attempts to retrofit grammatical rules that have been found to help clarify meaning in specific written contexts onto oral contexts.
It took me about three minutes to compose the previous sentences; it would've taken me seconds to say orally the same thought, which would have been something like:
"Y'know I think that it's really easy for people to forget that it's different, like between talking -- speaking, and writing, because you can't get across the, the tonalities and the hand, body movements. But then with writing you also have the opportunity to condense, to collect your thoughts. One's not better or worse, although from an historical perspective I guess speaking's first. I think that's where a lot of the issues about prescriptivism come from, or trying to put one set of rules on the other."
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:44 PM on September 16, 2010
It took me about three minutes to compose the previous sentences; it would've taken me seconds to say orally the same thought, which would have been something like:
"Y'know I think that it's really easy for people to forget that it's different, like between talking -- speaking, and writing, because you can't get across the, the tonalities and the hand, body movements. But then with writing you also have the opportunity to condense, to collect your thoughts. One's not better or worse, although from an historical perspective I guess speaking's first. I think that's where a lot of the issues about prescriptivism come from, or trying to put one set of rules on the other."
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:44 PM on September 16, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
"Tell me, what is your educational background?"
"Let me ask you, what is your name?"
posted by sunshinesky at 2:04 PM on September 16, 2010 [2 favorites]