Should I out my terrible boss to his boss?
September 6, 2010 9:34 AM Subscribe
I'm openly looking for a job within my company and will be asked why, do I tell the truth and throw my boss under a bus?
My boss is horrendous and my job is pretty much awesome. I have spent several years working for this boss (let's call him Bob) and while I have learned a lot in the position, he has often actively stood in the way of my progression and learning. Now that I am very good at my job (and therefore probably most valuable in my role), he is suffocating me to the extent that I have no room to grow. Growing and learning is important to me.
Bob is a micro-manager. He is also very anxious. He is constantly scared of being wrong, and will seek counsel from everyone (regardless of the worth of their advice) and he is constantly scared I am going to do something wrong that will reflect badly upon him (this is not likely - I am a star at work). He is therefore very, very intensely all over my work at all times. He often calls me when I am involved in some other project with "fake fire drills." Sometimes he calls me and leaves a panicked message and then when I call him back, he really has nothing. I'm sure it is clear this is stressful.
Bob has been with the company for a long time and managed a lot of people. At least a handful have left my position specifically because of him (like I said, it's a great job). People who are still with the company have told me he has been like this for years and they have never seen any change, despite repeated attempts. I have realized I will not be the one to change him, and I am sick of being stressed about it. Bob does not behave like a psycho to anyone except the few people who report into him, therefore he is widely considered to be extremely nice and great.
I have started searching for jobs within my larger company, which is also awesome. This is the kind of place where everyone knows you are looking and your boss needs to sign off on any internal moves. I am actively applying and have my boss' support for a recent opportunity.
My boss' boss (let's call him Joe) is incredible and we have a great relationship. Everything good in my job is almost directly because of him, and I do regret leaving his group. I have provided very vague hints that Bob is the worst boss ever to Joe, but have hesitated to get into detail because I don't want to hurt Bob's relationship to Joe. I think Joe knows Bob is a terrible manager because he has talked to others in my position, but I also don't think he is aware of the extent of the disorder.
I want to talk to Joe about the new opportunity and obtain his support and advocacy for me with the new hiring manager. This conversation will likely happen in the next ten days. Joe will be surprised that I am looking, and will ask why. My honest answer is that I cannot work for Bob any longer. If I did not report to Bob I would stay because the work itself is great and without someone anxiously refusing to give me opportunity, I see a lot of potential to learn and grow more. There is maybe a 2% change that Joe will make something happen to keep me that would involve not reporting to Bob.
While working something out for me would be great, I also want to speak the truth because I think Joe would be able to manage a better group if he knew the full extent of Bob's behavior. I'm not sure there is much that anyone can do about Bob, but maybe he can find a role where he doesn't manage anyone, or Joe can find other people to be involved and mitigate Bob a bit.
Do I tell Joe that I am leaving because of Bob? Do I explain exactly why Bob is a very poor manager? Do I pose a scenario where I stay and continue to deliver for our group without reporting to Bob?
My boss is horrendous and my job is pretty much awesome. I have spent several years working for this boss (let's call him Bob) and while I have learned a lot in the position, he has often actively stood in the way of my progression and learning. Now that I am very good at my job (and therefore probably most valuable in my role), he is suffocating me to the extent that I have no room to grow. Growing and learning is important to me.
Bob is a micro-manager. He is also very anxious. He is constantly scared of being wrong, and will seek counsel from everyone (regardless of the worth of their advice) and he is constantly scared I am going to do something wrong that will reflect badly upon him (this is not likely - I am a star at work). He is therefore very, very intensely all over my work at all times. He often calls me when I am involved in some other project with "fake fire drills." Sometimes he calls me and leaves a panicked message and then when I call him back, he really has nothing. I'm sure it is clear this is stressful.
Bob has been with the company for a long time and managed a lot of people. At least a handful have left my position specifically because of him (like I said, it's a great job). People who are still with the company have told me he has been like this for years and they have never seen any change, despite repeated attempts. I have realized I will not be the one to change him, and I am sick of being stressed about it. Bob does not behave like a psycho to anyone except the few people who report into him, therefore he is widely considered to be extremely nice and great.
I have started searching for jobs within my larger company, which is also awesome. This is the kind of place where everyone knows you are looking and your boss needs to sign off on any internal moves. I am actively applying and have my boss' support for a recent opportunity.
My boss' boss (let's call him Joe) is incredible and we have a great relationship. Everything good in my job is almost directly because of him, and I do regret leaving his group. I have provided very vague hints that Bob is the worst boss ever to Joe, but have hesitated to get into detail because I don't want to hurt Bob's relationship to Joe. I think Joe knows Bob is a terrible manager because he has talked to others in my position, but I also don't think he is aware of the extent of the disorder.
I want to talk to Joe about the new opportunity and obtain his support and advocacy for me with the new hiring manager. This conversation will likely happen in the next ten days. Joe will be surprised that I am looking, and will ask why. My honest answer is that I cannot work for Bob any longer. If I did not report to Bob I would stay because the work itself is great and without someone anxiously refusing to give me opportunity, I see a lot of potential to learn and grow more. There is maybe a 2% change that Joe will make something happen to keep me that would involve not reporting to Bob.
While working something out for me would be great, I also want to speak the truth because I think Joe would be able to manage a better group if he knew the full extent of Bob's behavior. I'm not sure there is much that anyone can do about Bob, but maybe he can find a role where he doesn't manage anyone, or Joe can find other people to be involved and mitigate Bob a bit.
Do I tell Joe that I am leaving because of Bob? Do I explain exactly why Bob is a very poor manager? Do I pose a scenario where I stay and continue to deliver for our group without reporting to Bob?
I would say, say the truth but keep it objective; as you explained to us this is not personal. So you can e.g. provide specific examples of situations where your superior skill was limited by Bob. Also mention that you like your position and your job and your group, and are willing to keep in contact.
posted by knz at 9:43 AM on September 6, 2010
posted by knz at 9:43 AM on September 6, 2010
I wouldn't say anything bad. I'd just emphasize the desire for another opportunity and say why you think it would be great for you and great for them.
posted by anniecat at 9:49 AM on September 6, 2010
posted by anniecat at 9:49 AM on September 6, 2010
IANACPE (I am not a corporate politics expert), but I think that the right approach might be to cloak your problems with Bob as problems with the requirements of the position that make it no longer ideal for you. That is, instead of saying "Bob always needs validation and triple-checking for his ideas" you could say something like "the position demands a large chunk of time each week devoted to analyzing very small problems, the position I'm interested in involves more leadership and dedicated work on large-scale problems."
Bob's not a complete a-hole, since he's supporting your move. That fact also makes me a little less inclined to throw him under the bus by name.
I'd be wary of any situation where you continued to work for the group but didn't report to Bob. I could be paranoid, but there's a chance you'd stick out as a lone branch on the org chart and be at risk of pruning or getting shuffled back into a bad place.
posted by Several Unnamed Sources at 9:53 AM on September 6, 2010
Bob's not a complete a-hole, since he's supporting your move. That fact also makes me a little less inclined to throw him under the bus by name.
I'd be wary of any situation where you continued to work for the group but didn't report to Bob. I could be paranoid, but there's a chance you'd stick out as a lone branch on the org chart and be at risk of pruning or getting shuffled back into a bad place.
posted by Several Unnamed Sources at 9:53 AM on September 6, 2010
Don't complain about Bob. Say that you're eager for new opportunities and the chance to learn and you feel that can happen best in a new position, explain why you're a good fit and what you could contribute. Don't badmouth the boss. Unless it's legally actionable, I'd strengthen that to never badouth your boss - especially to his boss. Joe very likely knows exactly what he does but has decided his contribution is valuable enough to put up with the negatives.
posted by lemniskate at 9:55 AM on September 6, 2010
posted by lemniskate at 9:55 AM on September 6, 2010
Do not say a word about Bob -- it won't get you anywhere and will probably just make you look bad. If Bob is as bad as you say and people have already left specifically because of him, then Joe (and everyone else) probably already knows, so you'll come off looking even more awesome if you keep him out of it.
I think you've already got the answer written in the text of your question:
Now that I am very good at my job (and therefore probably most valuable in my role), he is suffocating me to the extent that I have no room to grow. Growing and learning is important to me.
Take out the middle part and you have (with a few additions from me):
"I'm very good at my job, but I feel like I have no room to grow in this position. Growing and learning is important to me, so I'm looking for a new position that will provide some new challenges. I'm looking for new opportunities internally because I love this company and am very invested in its success."
Make it about how you want to increase your value to the company and tell Joe exactly how this new position helps you do that, and you're good to go. No mention of Bob necessary.
posted by missjenny at 10:09 AM on September 6, 2010 [7 favorites]
I think you've already got the answer written in the text of your question:
Now that I am very good at my job (and therefore probably most valuable in my role), he is suffocating me to the extent that I have no room to grow. Growing and learning is important to me.
Take out the middle part and you have (with a few additions from me):
"I'm very good at my job, but I feel like I have no room to grow in this position. Growing and learning is important to me, so I'm looking for a new position that will provide some new challenges. I'm looking for new opportunities internally because I love this company and am very invested in its success."
Make it about how you want to increase your value to the company and tell Joe exactly how this new position helps you do that, and you're good to go. No mention of Bob necessary.
posted by missjenny at 10:09 AM on September 6, 2010 [7 favorites]
I'll echo lemniskate and missjenny. You never want to frame a move as running away from something bad (for you) but instead toward something better (for the company). You also never want to hint that you have a problem getting along with people (even if you're justified).
posted by sockpup at 10:11 AM on September 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by sockpup at 10:11 AM on September 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
It's likely that Joe and any other powers that be are completely aware of all Bob's problems and are unwilling or unable to do anything about it, for reasons you may not ever get to know. You can be honest about wanting new opportunities while leaving any mention of Bob (beyond the two of you not being "a good fit") out of it. And you should.
posted by runtina at 10:12 AM on September 6, 2010
posted by runtina at 10:12 AM on September 6, 2010
Focus on your career and what you want (a job where you can grow), and not on Bob's career.
One option with Joe is for you to discuss your Bob situation in general terms, and discuss it in more detail after you find a new role. And be prepared to be heard with no visible action taken.
posted by germdisco at 10:15 AM on September 6, 2010
One option with Joe is for you to discuss your Bob situation in general terms, and discuss it in more detail after you find a new role. And be prepared to be heard with no visible action taken.
posted by germdisco at 10:15 AM on September 6, 2010
Bob is in the past. The best thing you can do is find a job on the company you want to do. If people ask why, say it's because you want to grow, onward and upward, etc.
Bob, while relevant now, is, in the grand scheme of things unimportant. Never trash talk a boss.
posted by KokuRyu at 10:22 AM on September 6, 2010
Bob, while relevant now, is, in the grand scheme of things unimportant. Never trash talk a boss.
posted by KokuRyu at 10:22 AM on September 6, 2010
"I'm very good at my job, but I feel like I have no room to grow in this position. Growing and learning is important to me, so I'm looking for a new position that will provide some new challenges. I'm looking for new opportunities internally because I love this company and am very invested in its success."
I'd make a tiny change to this: "I'm very good at my job, AND I feel like I have no room LEFT to grow in this position. Etc" Joe will be familiar enough with Bob's work to be able to read between the lines here, and I'm guessing will respect your tact aka professionalism. Be sure to toss in that you are only looking within the company, not outside (if this is the case.)
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 10:26 AM on September 6, 2010
I'd make a tiny change to this: "I'm very good at my job, AND I feel like I have no room LEFT to grow in this position. Etc" Joe will be familiar enough with Bob's work to be able to read between the lines here, and I'm guessing will respect your tact aka professionalism. Be sure to toss in that you are only looking within the company, not outside (if this is the case.)
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 10:26 AM on September 6, 2010
2nd germdisco. Do not, not, not badmouth Bob in any way until the job comes through. That's like badmouthing your last job in an interview.
Once you get the job, you are probably going to get to have some sort of 'what did you like, what did you not like, how can we improve' exit interview with Joe. You can pop you head in and schedule an informal one yourself if you like. That's the time to gently tell Joe that your opinion is that he needs to get a manager for your position that has certain strengths. You say what those strengths are - things like confidence, trust in his people, etc. Basically, you're turning your criticism of Bob into a hypothetical wish list without calling Bob out by name. You can do that now, because you're a disinterested third party at that point.
See, what you don't see is that Bob is very effective the way he is. Under his management, people become stars. Right? The only drawback is that he loses someone every so often. (But not too often. Sometimes they stay several years.) Even the ones who go don't leave in a huff or slap the company with a lawsuit. They go on to other places in the company to continue being an asset. Everyone wins. Annoyed employees is the price of doing business, and may be an acceptable one at that perspective.
Joe is not going to move Bob the next day based on your say-so, but worst case, the seed has been planted. More likely, the seed is already there, and you're feeding it. One day it will happen.
posted by ctmf at 10:29 AM on September 6, 2010
Once you get the job, you are probably going to get to have some sort of 'what did you like, what did you not like, how can we improve' exit interview with Joe. You can pop you head in and schedule an informal one yourself if you like. That's the time to gently tell Joe that your opinion is that he needs to get a manager for your position that has certain strengths. You say what those strengths are - things like confidence, trust in his people, etc. Basically, you're turning your criticism of Bob into a hypothetical wish list without calling Bob out by name. You can do that now, because you're a disinterested third party at that point.
See, what you don't see is that Bob is very effective the way he is. Under his management, people become stars. Right? The only drawback is that he loses someone every so often. (But not too often. Sometimes they stay several years.) Even the ones who go don't leave in a huff or slap the company with a lawsuit. They go on to other places in the company to continue being an asset. Everyone wins. Annoyed employees is the price of doing business, and may be an acceptable one at that perspective.
Joe is not going to move Bob the next day based on your say-so, but worst case, the seed has been planted. More likely, the seed is already there, and you're feeding it. One day it will happen.
posted by ctmf at 10:29 AM on September 6, 2010
There's no point and saying anything about Bob. Everyone knows. You'll just look like someone who's "not a team player". "Not a good fit" or "outgrown each other" are good phrases to use. Seriously, don't trash the boss. I've had management trash my manager to my face and refused to participate in it because it's bad politics.
"Why did you send that email out??"
"Because [boss] approved it."
"But you know he doesn't pay attention!!!"
etc.
I still think it's better in the long run.
Stress how this career move will benefit the company in the long run. Don't dwell on Bob. If you need to vent about Bob, find a friend or trusted coworker and get it off your chest. DON'T PUT ANYTHING IN WRITING.
posted by micawber at 10:30 AM on September 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
"Why did you send that email out??"
"Because [boss] approved it."
"But you know he doesn't pay attention!!!"
etc.
I still think it's better in the long run.
Stress how this career move will benefit the company in the long run. Don't dwell on Bob. If you need to vent about Bob, find a friend or trusted coworker and get it off your chest. DON'T PUT ANYTHING IN WRITING.
posted by micawber at 10:30 AM on September 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
The closest to trash talk you should get is that you and Bob are not a good fit. He'll understand exactly what that means.
Stress that you are looking for a chance to grow and expand you abilities and contribution to the company. If he asks about ways that he could help to make that happen in your current position, simply say that you feel you need to grow in a direction that is not possible there.
This. You don't want to show up to an interview venting spleen about your old boss, especially when you're applying for a new job.
The right time to discuss your lack of gruntlement with a specific manager is the exit interview.
posted by rodgerd at 11:22 AM on September 6, 2010
Stress that you are looking for a chance to grow and expand you abilities and contribution to the company. If he asks about ways that he could help to make that happen in your current position, simply say that you feel you need to grow in a direction that is not possible there.
This. You don't want to show up to an interview venting spleen about your old boss, especially when you're applying for a new job.
The right time to discuss your lack of gruntlement with a specific manager is the exit interview.
posted by rodgerd at 11:22 AM on September 6, 2010
The right time to discuss your lack of gruntlement with a specific manager is the exit interview.
The exit interview is not the place to do anything substantive. It exists to satisfy a legal obligation and a legal obligation only. Just nod and smile in the exit interview.
There are backchannel, very very subtle ways to do things about your manager if you think they're a bad manager. It requires a lot of finesse, networking, and politicking. Not everyone has the skills or patience to do these kinds of things, and sometimes, there's just nothing you CAN do about it.
posted by micawber at 1:31 PM on September 6, 2010
The exit interview is not the place to do anything substantive. It exists to satisfy a legal obligation and a legal obligation only. Just nod and smile in the exit interview.
There are backchannel, very very subtle ways to do things about your manager if you think they're a bad manager. It requires a lot of finesse, networking, and politicking. Not everyone has the skills or patience to do these kinds of things, and sometimes, there's just nothing you CAN do about it.
posted by micawber at 1:31 PM on September 6, 2010
no, don't complain.
you can spin things if you like 'I feel like I'm ready for higher levels of responsibility. Bob pays really close attention to every step I take, and I've learned a lot from his hands-on on-the-job training approach. I'm really grateful for it, and now I feel ready to take on a new challenge with more wings." everything you'd like to complain about can be spun around- he'll catch the underlying commentary about the boss, and will commend you for taking any lemons and making profitable lemonade with it.
posted by saraindc at 1:59 PM on September 6, 2010
you can spin things if you like 'I feel like I'm ready for higher levels of responsibility. Bob pays really close attention to every step I take, and I've learned a lot from his hands-on on-the-job training approach. I'm really grateful for it, and now I feel ready to take on a new challenge with more wings." everything you'd like to complain about can be spun around- he'll catch the underlying commentary about the boss, and will commend you for taking any lemons and making profitable lemonade with it.
posted by saraindc at 1:59 PM on September 6, 2010
The reason you should never talk trash about a boss, internal or external, is that it begs the question, "What will Anonymous say about me behind my back?"
posted by Short Attention Sp at 3:19 PM on September 6, 2010
posted by Short Attention Sp at 3:19 PM on September 6, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
Stress that you are looking for a chance to grow and expand you abilities and contribution to the company. If he asks about ways that he could help to make that happen in your current position, simply say that you feel you need to grow in a direction that is not possible there.
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 9:42 AM on September 6, 2010 [18 favorites]