Third time's the....nevermind.
August 17, 2010 7:08 AM Subscribe
Which cardinal rule of dating am I breaking? If I don't know what I'm doing wrong, how can I stop doing it? (Perhaps mildly NSFW).
Female, late twenties, relatively new to dating. Doing the online thing. A pattern is beginning to emerge.
I'm meeting lots of men for dinner and coffee. Twice now I've met especially fantastic men who tickle my funny bone and with whom there appears to be a mutually sparky connection. We wine and dine and eventually (not on the first date) have hot and fulfilling sex. First his place, then the next time at my place.
Then....nothing. Radio silence. I'll send a text a day or two later (I know it breaks "The Rules" and "He's Just Not That Into You," but I prefer to operate in a world where everyone is an adult human being), and I really don't see how my messages ("hey, how are you?") could in anyway be interpreted as crazy clingly desperate messages. If I don't hear back, I don't text or call again precisely because I don't want to be desperate or demanding to someone who can't be assed to move his thumb and call me back. I'm kind of baffled because if it were just once I'd think, "Okay, he was just in it for the sex," but the trouble of lining up another date after the first time suggests otherwise (to me, anyway).
So, a two part question: What the hell am I doing wrong? Is sex at my place somehow so horrific that they run for the hills? My house is clean, my legs are shaved....I just can't figure out what I've done wrong to make them flee. Advice here would be much appreciated, but to avoid prolonged navel gazing the second part of my questions is: How can I break this cycle? I'd really like to meet someone who does not bail after hooking up with me twice.
Female, late twenties, relatively new to dating. Doing the online thing. A pattern is beginning to emerge.
I'm meeting lots of men for dinner and coffee. Twice now I've met especially fantastic men who tickle my funny bone and with whom there appears to be a mutually sparky connection. We wine and dine and eventually (not on the first date) have hot and fulfilling sex. First his place, then the next time at my place.
Then....nothing. Radio silence. I'll send a text a day or two later (I know it breaks "The Rules" and "He's Just Not That Into You," but I prefer to operate in a world where everyone is an adult human being), and I really don't see how my messages ("hey, how are you?") could in anyway be interpreted as crazy clingly desperate messages. If I don't hear back, I don't text or call again precisely because I don't want to be desperate or demanding to someone who can't be assed to move his thumb and call me back. I'm kind of baffled because if it were just once I'd think, "Okay, he was just in it for the sex," but the trouble of lining up another date after the first time suggests otherwise (to me, anyway).
So, a two part question: What the hell am I doing wrong? Is sex at my place somehow so horrific that they run for the hills? My house is clean, my legs are shaved....I just can't figure out what I've done wrong to make them flee. Advice here would be much appreciated, but to avoid prolonged navel gazing the second part of my questions is: How can I break this cycle? I'd really like to meet someone who does not bail after hooking up with me twice.
Maybe instead of a text you could call and arrange another date? For me that gap between second and third date would best be filled with making plans, not a thumb-driven "how was your day" process.
posted by chrillsicka at 7:17 AM on August 17, 2010 [6 favorites]
posted by chrillsicka at 7:17 AM on August 17, 2010 [6 favorites]
If I were you, I would experiment with postponing the sex.
posted by thejoshu at 7:17 AM on August 17, 2010 [23 favorites]
posted by thejoshu at 7:17 AM on August 17, 2010 [23 favorites]
First of all, two times does not a pattern make. Until you get to ~5 occurrences or so with no exceptions in between, you should be thinking "sampling error" and not "worrisome trend".
But even if there does turn out to be a pattern here, I don't think it's necessarily a particularly mysterious one. Supposing you meet a guy wanting sex, but not a relationship (or not a relationship with you, at least). He dates to get to the sex. Then he comes back for a little more sex. Then he starts to feel like the serial sex might be getting into relationship territory, and he's too gutless to just have a conversation about it, so he splits. Doesn't sound all that improbable to me.
Your question doesn't mention what your goals are in all this, but if you're interested in a relationship, perhaps you could try having that conversation before you bed the guy, to make sure you're both on the same page.
posted by Bardolph at 7:19 AM on August 17, 2010 [21 favorites]
But even if there does turn out to be a pattern here, I don't think it's necessarily a particularly mysterious one. Supposing you meet a guy wanting sex, but not a relationship (or not a relationship with you, at least). He dates to get to the sex. Then he comes back for a little more sex. Then he starts to feel like the serial sex might be getting into relationship territory, and he's too gutless to just have a conversation about it, so he splits. Doesn't sound all that improbable to me.
Your question doesn't mention what your goals are in all this, but if you're interested in a relationship, perhaps you could try having that conversation before you bed the guy, to make sure you're both on the same page.
posted by Bardolph at 7:19 AM on August 17, 2010 [21 favorites]
I'm not sure if we have enough information here...
Do you live in a very different neighborhood than these guys? Do you have any roommates? Did the men stay over at your place? Did you stay over at theirs? Did they do or say anything while they were with you the second night to indicate they were uncomfortable? Are there topics of conversation that you tend to bring up at that point in dating someone?
I agree this is a strange pattern, but it's hard to tell if you're focusing on the right part of it.
Regardless, it may just be that these dudes are flaky and you've had a rash of bad luck. :/
posted by Narrative Priorities at 7:20 AM on August 17, 2010
Do you live in a very different neighborhood than these guys? Do you have any roommates? Did the men stay over at your place? Did you stay over at theirs? Did they do or say anything while they were with you the second night to indicate they were uncomfortable? Are there topics of conversation that you tend to bring up at that point in dating someone?
I agree this is a strange pattern, but it's hard to tell if you're focusing on the right part of it.
Regardless, it may just be that these dudes are flaky and you've had a rash of bad luck. :/
posted by Narrative Priorities at 7:20 AM on August 17, 2010
I'm kind of baffled because if it were just once I'd think, "Okay, he was just in it for the sex," but the trouble of lining up another date after the first time suggests otherwise (to me, anyway).
Lining up a date really isn't that hard, if the guy already knows you'll sleep with him. I think you need to start thinking of sex and relationships separately. If you want to have sex with a guy, go ahead, but it's not going to necessarily mean he wants a relationship. It just means he wants sex. If you don't want to sleep with guys who don't want a relationship, wait until you're in a relationship with a guy to have sex with him.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:20 AM on August 17, 2010 [18 favorites]
Lining up a date really isn't that hard, if the guy already knows you'll sleep with him. I think you need to start thinking of sex and relationships separately. If you want to have sex with a guy, go ahead, but it's not going to necessarily mean he wants a relationship. It just means he wants sex. If you don't want to sleep with guys who don't want a relationship, wait until you're in a relationship with a guy to have sex with him.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:20 AM on August 17, 2010 [18 favorites]
Don't have much constructive advice, but wanted to let you know I empathize. I've found in my travels that what men do in these situations often makes no sense, especially to those of us who operate on the assumption that we're dealing with adult human beings. :)
I'd like to tell you that maybe your texts haven't gone through, but that seems unlikely in two separate cases. Have you tried calling though, just in case there is something going on with texts? I'd try that - at least then he'll be more compelled to give you the answers you need, instead of seeing a text and tossing the phone aside, only to later forget he read it.... Know what I mean?
Good luck, I hope you find what you're looking for!
posted by slyboots421 at 7:21 AM on August 17, 2010
I'd like to tell you that maybe your texts haven't gone through, but that seems unlikely in two separate cases. Have you tried calling though, just in case there is something going on with texts? I'd try that - at least then he'll be more compelled to give you the answers you need, instead of seeing a text and tossing the phone aside, only to later forget he read it.... Know what I mean?
Good luck, I hope you find what you're looking for!
posted by slyboots421 at 7:21 AM on August 17, 2010
How can I break this cycle?
You break it by doing something different. Either you start picking different guys, or you change the pattern with the same guys you are seeing now. I know that that sounds super simplistic, but it's true.
Also, the Rules-style rules might be more useful pre-sex, as a screening device to (hopefully) assess whether or not the guy was just going to get some action and hit the road, or was more into sticking around. Some of that stuff is just nasty, old-school weirdness ("men are like this, women are like that") but within in it are the building blocks of ways of testing someone for a certain kind of seriousness. Does he care enough to phone you, without being all every-five-minutes-stalker or oops-forgot-about-it-for-a-week? Can he manage basic situational politeness in social situations?
So I think you should work more on the pre-sex screening, and think about what the actual pattern you fall into while dating. Are you engaging them in a way that lets you assess how cool they'd be to hang out with long-term? Or are you just starting down the slope of wine-dinner-sex without ever a deviation?
(And, just in case, take a look at your place with a fresh eye. I really doubt it, but I guess it is possible that it is giving off a really weird vibe -- maybe "I'm going to start knitting your mom a sweater tomorrow" or "I keep my ex-boyfriends in a chest freezer in the basement"? Again, assuming that it is semi-clean and semi-normal, this is totally a non-issue, but none of us are there and can see it, so who knows.)
posted by Forktine at 7:25 AM on August 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
You break it by doing something different. Either you start picking different guys, or you change the pattern with the same guys you are seeing now. I know that that sounds super simplistic, but it's true.
Also, the Rules-style rules might be more useful pre-sex, as a screening device to (hopefully) assess whether or not the guy was just going to get some action and hit the road, or was more into sticking around. Some of that stuff is just nasty, old-school weirdness ("men are like this, women are like that") but within in it are the building blocks of ways of testing someone for a certain kind of seriousness. Does he care enough to phone you, without being all every-five-minutes-stalker or oops-forgot-about-it-for-a-week? Can he manage basic situational politeness in social situations?
So I think you should work more on the pre-sex screening, and think about what the actual pattern you fall into while dating. Are you engaging them in a way that lets you assess how cool they'd be to hang out with long-term? Or are you just starting down the slope of wine-dinner-sex without ever a deviation?
(And, just in case, take a look at your place with a fresh eye. I really doubt it, but I guess it is possible that it is giving off a really weird vibe -- maybe "I'm going to start knitting your mom a sweater tomorrow" or "I keep my ex-boyfriends in a chest freezer in the basement"? Again, assuming that it is semi-clean and semi-normal, this is totally a non-issue, but none of us are there and can see it, so who knows.)
posted by Forktine at 7:25 AM on August 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
This story is a common enough one that I can't conclude you're doing anything wrong, other than being unable to predict the future.
posted by Zed at 7:29 AM on August 17, 2010 [11 favorites]
posted by Zed at 7:29 AM on August 17, 2010 [11 favorites]
For what it's worth, the women I have been most attracted to and pined for the most were the women I had little or no physical intimacy with; the women I was physically intimate with right away, I almost never developed real feelings for. Your mileage may vary.
posted by Menthol at 7:30 AM on August 17, 2010 [4 favorites]
posted by Menthol at 7:30 AM on August 17, 2010 [4 favorites]
Twice now I've met especially fantastic men who tickle my funny bone and with whom there appears to be a mutually sparky connection.
That's not a pattern. Could just be you drawing crappy odds and assigning a pattern where there really isn't one.
What are you expecting from a "mutually sparky connection"? Sounds like you wanted more and they just wanted sex. Perhaps there's a problem with communication and understanding? I get the sense from your previous questions that once you're into a guy, you're into him and just sort of expect him to be on the same wave length without really talking about. In short, you may be living in your head about the relationship without ever really touching bases with the person.
Yes, that's a stranger on the internet opining of course, but food for thought.
posted by nomadicink at 7:30 AM on August 17, 2010
That's not a pattern. Could just be you drawing crappy odds and assigning a pattern where there really isn't one.
What are you expecting from a "mutually sparky connection"? Sounds like you wanted more and they just wanted sex. Perhaps there's a problem with communication and understanding? I get the sense from your previous questions that once you're into a guy, you're into him and just sort of expect him to be on the same wave length without really talking about. In short, you may be living in your head about the relationship without ever really touching bases with the person.
Yes, that's a stranger on the internet opining of course, but food for thought.
posted by nomadicink at 7:30 AM on August 17, 2010
This assumption that women always have to be the ones to "hold off" on sex, with the implication that men just can't control themselves when faced with the possibility of it, is really troubling to me.
Have sex with them when you want to. I don't think this is a pattern, it's just two guys who didn't have the guts to tell you they were having second thoughts (or whatever). I agree that calling instead of texting is the way to go. :)
posted by torisaur at 7:34 AM on August 17, 2010 [20 favorites]
Have sex with them when you want to. I don't think this is a pattern, it's just two guys who didn't have the guts to tell you they were having second thoughts (or whatever). I agree that calling instead of texting is the way to go. :)
posted by torisaur at 7:34 AM on August 17, 2010 [20 favorites]
Upon reread: Wait, this has only happened TWICE?
Agreeing with Bardolph: "Two times does not a pattern make." Don't worry about it too much, I'm sure it isn't a sign of DOOM but just a little bad luck.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 7:35 AM on August 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
Agreeing with Bardolph: "Two times does not a pattern make." Don't worry about it too much, I'm sure it isn't a sign of DOOM but just a little bad luck.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 7:35 AM on August 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
Well, it seems that you have several variables that you can play with in the scenario that you've laid out.
Option 1: Take them to your place first. If they run for the hills, then sure maybe your place is a dungeon or they are seeing things about you that they aren't ready to see. Is your tarot collection left out in the open? Do you have a wall of crucifixes over your bed? Do you have a cat that sheds excessively? Visible sex toys? Thomas Kinkade paintings?
Option 2: Never take them to your place. Go to their place. Observe them in their natural habitat. Just say that your place is off limits for the time being but you're happy to have them over in the future. If they still bail, then maybe they're just in it for the sex. If they still bail, maybe one of your mannerisms or personality quirks is driving them off. If they still bail, maybe they are being systematically picked off by a serial killer who watches you from deep beneath the opera house stage... Who knows. But the point will be: it is at least AS safe to bring them to your place.
Option 3: Have more non-traditional (dinner/coffee) dates. This would be the way to test whether it is possibly your personality or a bad fit that is driving them off. I think even without any longterm potential, a lot of people will hook up for a couple dates because it is something to do - and I think most of us would agree it is fun. But if you up the threshold from dinner/coffee to something a little more intense, you might get a more straightforward answer. "Want to go wander around the Met with me this afternoon?" or "I have tickets to the opera, would you care to join me?" or "When was the last time that you went and played in the park?" I mean, the options are endless and it doesn't have to FEEL like you are coming up with ridiculous dates to test people's interest level. But I think that's what the overall effect will be.
Option 4: Withhold sex for a longer time. I'm pretty sure I was psychologically broken by the accordion as a child. My dad would play traditional Irish music for my sibs and me while we sat in the bathtub as children. To this day, we know just about all the words to every traditional Irish song out there and it is a kind of reflexive knowledge. Why do you care about this? Because one of those songs is about Eileen Oge, the Pride of Petravore, and the relevant lyric is "if you want them runnin' after you just walk the other way." I'll spare you the gory details, but Eileen is a most sought-after woman who is finally won... through indifference. It's the proverbial "play it cool" routine. You might try this.
posted by greekphilosophy at 7:38 AM on August 17, 2010 [7 favorites]
Option 1: Take them to your place first. If they run for the hills, then sure maybe your place is a dungeon or they are seeing things about you that they aren't ready to see. Is your tarot collection left out in the open? Do you have a wall of crucifixes over your bed? Do you have a cat that sheds excessively? Visible sex toys? Thomas Kinkade paintings?
Option 2: Never take them to your place. Go to their place. Observe them in their natural habitat. Just say that your place is off limits for the time being but you're happy to have them over in the future. If they still bail, then maybe they're just in it for the sex. If they still bail, maybe one of your mannerisms or personality quirks is driving them off. If they still bail, maybe they are being systematically picked off by a serial killer who watches you from deep beneath the opera house stage... Who knows. But the point will be: it is at least AS safe to bring them to your place.
Option 3: Have more non-traditional (dinner/coffee) dates. This would be the way to test whether it is possibly your personality or a bad fit that is driving them off. I think even without any longterm potential, a lot of people will hook up for a couple dates because it is something to do - and I think most of us would agree it is fun. But if you up the threshold from dinner/coffee to something a little more intense, you might get a more straightforward answer. "Want to go wander around the Met with me this afternoon?" or "I have tickets to the opera, would you care to join me?" or "When was the last time that you went and played in the park?" I mean, the options are endless and it doesn't have to FEEL like you are coming up with ridiculous dates to test people's interest level. But I think that's what the overall effect will be.
Option 4: Withhold sex for a longer time. I'm pretty sure I was psychologically broken by the accordion as a child. My dad would play traditional Irish music for my sibs and me while we sat in the bathtub as children. To this day, we know just about all the words to every traditional Irish song out there and it is a kind of reflexive knowledge. Why do you care about this? Because one of those songs is about Eileen Oge, the Pride of Petravore, and the relevant lyric is "if you want them runnin' after you just walk the other way." I'll spare you the gory details, but Eileen is a most sought-after woman who is finally won... through indifference. It's the proverbial "play it cool" routine. You might try this.
posted by greekphilosophy at 7:38 AM on August 17, 2010 [7 favorites]
I've found in my travels that what men do in these situations often makes no sense
Yeah, not all men, by any means, but there are some men (and women) who are like cats - you'll never figure out what they're thinking, and you'll make yourself crazy trying. Best to just move on.
posted by MexicanYenta at 7:41 AM on August 17, 2010 [3 favorites]
Yeah, not all men, by any means, but there are some men (and women) who are like cats - you'll never figure out what they're thinking, and you'll make yourself crazy trying. Best to just move on.
posted by MexicanYenta at 7:41 AM on August 17, 2010 [3 favorites]
Is there anything in your medicine cabinet that might give someone the impression you suffer from something (depression, STD, foot fungus, etc) they might not be ready to deal with?
posted by bondcliff at 7:46 AM on August 17, 2010
posted by bondcliff at 7:46 AM on August 17, 2010
Along the lines of ThePinkSuperhero's comment, this comment in the "Doing it wrong" thread might by useful:
On preview: public, not every relationship question asked by a woman needs to bring up "blaming the victim." You don't help someone by trying to instill in them an overinflated sense of victimhood. She has simply had a couple dating situations that didn't work out and she's trying to see if there's a pattern or something she could be doing differently.
posted by Jaltcoh at 7:46 AM on August 17, 2010 [5 favorites]
I didn't realize until my early twenties that if a man would have sex with me, all it meant was that he wanted to have sex with me, not that he liked me as a person or found me attractive. This is the one thing that was left out of the sex talk that my mom had with me that really would have been helpful to include.I don't think this is some new idea you've never thought of; you say yourself that if it had happened just once, you'd be thinking, "Okay, he was just in it for the sex." But if that would be a sensible explanation of one person acting like that, why isn't it an equally sensible explanation of both of them? Maybe you're just learning that there are a lot of guys like that out there, or maybe it's bad luck. Also, it'd be really useful to know some more details, especially how many dates have happened from the first date to the end, and how long the timespan is.
On preview: public, not every relationship question asked by a woman needs to bring up "blaming the victim." You don't help someone by trying to instill in them an overinflated sense of victimhood. She has simply had a couple dating situations that didn't work out and she's trying to see if there's a pattern or something she could be doing differently.
posted by Jaltcoh at 7:46 AM on August 17, 2010 [5 favorites]
Yeah, not all men, by any means, but there are some men (and women) who are like cats - you'll never figure out what they're thinking, and you'll make yourself crazy trying. Best to just move on.
Much better way to put what I meant to say. :)
posted by slyboots421 at 7:48 AM on August 17, 2010
Much better way to put what I meant to say. :)
posted by slyboots421 at 7:48 AM on August 17, 2010
Jaltcoh, I agree. I have no idea why you've interpreted what I said how you have though since some others appear to get it.
posted by public at 7:52 AM on August 17, 2010
posted by public at 7:52 AM on August 17, 2010
Along the lines of 'what strange thing about my house might be a problem' - do you have cats? Most people with cats don't realize their house smells like cat pee because they become desensitized to the ammonia and honestly don't smell it anymore.
Beyond something like that, you're not doing anything wrong. You're being yourself, which is the most important thing you can do. And yes, you absolutely want to meet someone who doesn't bail after hooking up with you twice, but none of the people you're meeting are that person, so keep looking and follow your instinct to be yourself - it's right on.
Just like you're not afraid to text after a date, don't be afraid to tell guys that you're looking for someone who wants to date longer term. If they don't like that, move on because they aren't what you're looking for, and it wouldn't work with them if they don't want to hear that.
posted by jardinier at 7:53 AM on August 17, 2010
Beyond something like that, you're not doing anything wrong. You're being yourself, which is the most important thing you can do. And yes, you absolutely want to meet someone who doesn't bail after hooking up with you twice, but none of the people you're meeting are that person, so keep looking and follow your instinct to be yourself - it's right on.
Just like you're not afraid to text after a date, don't be afraid to tell guys that you're looking for someone who wants to date longer term. If they don't like that, move on because they aren't what you're looking for, and it wouldn't work with them if they don't want to hear that.
posted by jardinier at 7:53 AM on August 17, 2010
Mod note: A few comments removed. Please keep the antagonistic framing and side-argument stuff to a minimum.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:58 AM on August 17, 2010
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:58 AM on August 17, 2010
The salient question: how long is "eventually?"
This. To help figure out the pattern (but I'm with people above, two times does not a pattern make).
Is it first date, then second date is sex? Third date is sex at your place?
posted by dzaz at 8:13 AM on August 17, 2010
This. To help figure out the pattern (but I'm with people above, two times does not a pattern make).
Is it first date, then second date is sex? Third date is sex at your place?
posted by dzaz at 8:13 AM on August 17, 2010
Don't withhold sex to encourage long term relationships. That might not discourage men who only want sex. How long should you wait? How long can he wait? It might also discourage men who are interested in a long term relationship but averse to a relationship where sex must be earned or traded for power.
Agreed that twice isn't a pattern, so you don't need to change your behavior. If this pattern continues, you should figure out why you think he's interested in you and whether there are better ways of gauging his interest.
posted by anonymuk at 8:24 AM on August 17, 2010 [7 favorites]
Agreed that twice isn't a pattern, so you don't need to change your behavior. If this pattern continues, you should figure out why you think he's interested in you and whether there are better ways of gauging his interest.
posted by anonymuk at 8:24 AM on August 17, 2010 [7 favorites]
I guess I'm still baffled at the people who want to treat sex like it's the equivalent of a handshake. There was a long discussion here about the meanings hidden and apparent of a date sharing his/her ice-cream and yet, when sex comes up there's always a few people trying to say that it means nothing. I find that so ridiculous. It's a (possible) factor in this person's dating repertoire and I don't think it's sneaky or rules-ey to suggest that she might hold off on this intimate act to see if that changes things. Why is it when someone wants to hold off on sex they're being all "The Rules" and when someone wants to jump into bed on the second date that they're the one without the hangup. They are playing their own game but it's absolutely a game nonetheless.
Sex changes the game. Kissing changes the game. Going to a super-fancy-$100-a-plate restaurant changes the game. Meeting your date's friends or parents changes the game.
This question boils down to: which game do you want to be playing?
Dating is a dance. It's a give and take. Just like taking your OKCupid date to meet your parents on the second date sends a message, so does having sex. But, you don't even know the guy/girl -- so controlling that message once you send it is pretty difficult. Historically, if you're interested in a relationship, you ramp things up, adding levels of intimacy. It's fine if you want to jump right to the naked, sweaty fun. And that may or may not lead to a long relationship. But it's not manipulative to wait and get to know someone before you bone them. And if your goal is a relationship that lasts longer than a few dates, this might be something to try.
posted by amanda at 8:30 AM on August 17, 2010 [24 favorites]
Sex changes the game. Kissing changes the game. Going to a super-fancy-$100-a-plate restaurant changes the game. Meeting your date's friends or parents changes the game.
This question boils down to: which game do you want to be playing?
Dating is a dance. It's a give and take. Just like taking your OKCupid date to meet your parents on the second date sends a message, so does having sex. But, you don't even know the guy/girl -- so controlling that message once you send it is pretty difficult. Historically, if you're interested in a relationship, you ramp things up, adding levels of intimacy. It's fine if you want to jump right to the naked, sweaty fun. And that may or may not lead to a long relationship. But it's not manipulative to wait and get to know someone before you bone them. And if your goal is a relationship that lasts longer than a few dates, this might be something to try.
posted by amanda at 8:30 AM on August 17, 2010 [24 favorites]
While I agree with others that this isn't necessarily a pattern, I think this kind of behavior may tend to go with the territory of online dating where there's not a lot of context behind the relationship so people feel that it's okay to simply disappear rather than making the effort to end things outright when they feel they don't want to see you again. If this bothers you a lot, then you might want to broaden your range of how you're meeting people. Obviously, people won't always be on the same page as you, and may behave badly in a wide variety of scenarios. But have you tried other avenues to meet guys? Volunteering, becoming active in a new community group, asking friends to set you up, getting involved in a new hobby? This might be a good way to get to know someone a bit before you get into the dating/sex territory, and weed out some of the ones that are just in it for the tail.
posted by sk932 at 8:31 AM on August 17, 2010
posted by sk932 at 8:31 AM on August 17, 2010
My understanding (admittedly, my entire research on this subject is limited to being a regular listener of the Howard Stern show) is that there is a portion of men on any given dating site who use the site solely as a means of attaining sex. My guess is you just happened to date two of these guys in a row.
posted by The Gooch at 8:34 AM on August 17, 2010
posted by The Gooch at 8:34 AM on August 17, 2010
Mod note: seriously people - answer the question and move on, critiquing other people's relationship choices and decisions isn't useful. You are not dating them. Go to MeTa if you need to.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:45 AM on August 17, 2010
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:45 AM on August 17, 2010
Here's a crazy idea. Back in my day, we didn't have text messages. So we had to call on the phone.
When you call on the phone, you get a sense of what the other person feels. Tone of voice. What they say. What they don't say. It's a two-way transfer of information.
Whereas a text may be one of a hundred texts the guy gets. Who knows what they're doing when they get it? Maybe by the time they're free to respond, something else is on their mind.
CALL ON THE PHONE.
Jeez.
posted by musofire at 8:48 AM on August 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
When you call on the phone, you get a sense of what the other person feels. Tone of voice. What they say. What they don't say. It's a two-way transfer of information.
Whereas a text may be one of a hundred texts the guy gets. Who knows what they're doing when they get it? Maybe by the time they're free to respond, something else is on their mind.
CALL ON THE PHONE.
Jeez.
posted by musofire at 8:48 AM on August 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
Agree with TPS entirely as usual (she really needs to write a book on modern romance). Either these guys were mainly charming you for the sex (this is and has always been common), or had more in mind but the sex wasn't nearly so good for them as you think it was. I would make no assumptions about what the sex-having means vis-a-vis the relationship prospects.
You could slow down on the getting intimate in the hopes of better assessing someone's dating goals and motives, but ask yourself if those goals really do matter to you (they may) when it comes to the decision to have sex in the first place. Keep in mind that this will also result in: a) you missing out on good sex; b) actually wasting time on more dates only for the disingenuous guys to dump you or disappear before the sex. Is this worth sparing you of the emotional attachment that might come with physical intimacy?; c) probably scaring off dates that are genuinely interested in a relationship but start to suspect either a lack of physical attraction on your part or that you are playing games (this sort of thing would be a red flag for lots of guys). Moreover having sex on a 2nd or 3rd date is unlikely to scare off men actually interested in a relationship these days. That's old-fashioned mythology.
I personally don't think you're doing anything wrong, though it might just be healthier for you to see having good sex in the context of a dead-end series of dates as less of A Bad Thing and more of a bonus in what is otherwise the hell of dating. Perhaps that's too male-centric a view, I don't know...
posted by drpynchon at 8:51 AM on August 17, 2010
You could slow down on the getting intimate in the hopes of better assessing someone's dating goals and motives, but ask yourself if those goals really do matter to you (they may) when it comes to the decision to have sex in the first place. Keep in mind that this will also result in: a) you missing out on good sex; b) actually wasting time on more dates only for the disingenuous guys to dump you or disappear before the sex. Is this worth sparing you of the emotional attachment that might come with physical intimacy?; c) probably scaring off dates that are genuinely interested in a relationship but start to suspect either a lack of physical attraction on your part or that you are playing games (this sort of thing would be a red flag for lots of guys). Moreover having sex on a 2nd or 3rd date is unlikely to scare off men actually interested in a relationship these days. That's old-fashioned mythology.
I personally don't think you're doing anything wrong, though it might just be healthier for you to see having good sex in the context of a dead-end series of dates as less of A Bad Thing and more of a bonus in what is otherwise the hell of dating. Perhaps that's too male-centric a view, I don't know...
posted by drpynchon at 8:51 AM on August 17, 2010
Response by poster: Is it first date, then second date is sex? Third date is sex at your place?
Um....yeah. But, with the second guy, there were about five weeks between the first and second of long phone calls, IMs, texts and so on.
I'll answer a few more questions to keep these terrific insights coming:
First of all, two times does not a pattern make.
This is true, but I'd really rather nip this in the bud before it blooms into an all-out pattern.
And, just in case, take a look at your place with a fresh eye.
I've actually moved in between these instances. And while I do have a cat, so did both of these guys. I mean, I saw their places first and mine have been roughly on par.
Sounds like you wanted more and they just wanted sex.
Actually, just sex is fine. In the second instance, we had several serious conversations about becoming sexually intimate while keeping up other relationships and seeing other people. It was my understanding that it would be more than twice, though.
Have sex with them when you want to.
I, too, am troubled by the notion that I have to hold off or play hard to get in order to trick them into a long-term relationship. It seems to circumvent the problem that I actually want physical intimacy as a stand-alone desire of my own. I didn't especially want a super-serious LTR with either of these guys, but an adios would have been nice.
CALL ON THE PHONE.
If they don't respond to my texts, they sure as hell don't pick up when they see that I'm calling. I'm not looking for advice on how to reconnect with either of these two guys (even I know a lost cause when I see one) but on how to reorient my own behavior going forward.
Thank you all for the great advice so far!
posted by motsque at 8:53 AM on August 17, 2010 [2 favorites]
Um....yeah. But, with the second guy, there were about five weeks between the first and second of long phone calls, IMs, texts and so on.
I'll answer a few more questions to keep these terrific insights coming:
First of all, two times does not a pattern make.
This is true, but I'd really rather nip this in the bud before it blooms into an all-out pattern.
And, just in case, take a look at your place with a fresh eye.
I've actually moved in between these instances. And while I do have a cat, so did both of these guys. I mean, I saw their places first and mine have been roughly on par.
Sounds like you wanted more and they just wanted sex.
Actually, just sex is fine. In the second instance, we had several serious conversations about becoming sexually intimate while keeping up other relationships and seeing other people. It was my understanding that it would be more than twice, though.
Have sex with them when you want to.
I, too, am troubled by the notion that I have to hold off or play hard to get in order to trick them into a long-term relationship. It seems to circumvent the problem that I actually want physical intimacy as a stand-alone desire of my own. I didn't especially want a super-serious LTR with either of these guys, but an adios would have been nice.
CALL ON THE PHONE.
If they don't respond to my texts, they sure as hell don't pick up when they see that I'm calling. I'm not looking for advice on how to reconnect with either of these two guys (even I know a lost cause when I see one) but on how to reorient my own behavior going forward.
Thank you all for the great advice so far!
posted by motsque at 8:53 AM on August 17, 2010 [2 favorites]
Ah, you do have a cat. Ask a friend of yours who doesn't have a cat to give you a 100% honest smell rating of your apartment. It can't hurt, then you'll know - especially because you're likely to meet guys who don't have a cat. As a cat owner, you might be surprised at the amount of talk that goes on about the friends with cats who have smelly apartments, but no one can ever bring themselves to tells them...
posted by jardinier at 9:06 AM on August 17, 2010
posted by jardinier at 9:06 AM on August 17, 2010
If they don't respond to my texts, they sure as hell don't pick up when they see that I'm calling. I'm not looking for advice on how to reconnect with either of these two guys (even I know a lost cause when I see one) but on how to reorient my own behavior going forward.
Well, again, what do you want? I don't necessarily see anything that you need to do. You can't make these guys be decent guys who answer phone calls. If you call and leave a message and they don't get back to you...? Why do you think that has anything to do with your behavior or way that you're dating? There's nothing you can do there. You can dress in Victorian lace and play the coquette and they might not call you back. You can slap them in the face and call them Sally and they might not call you back.
So, I think people are assuming that you're looking for a relationship but if you're getting what you want to get out of this then everything's fine? If all you want is for them to say "goodbye" when they're done with you, I suppose you could mention that right off the bat. But, I don't know if that'll help.
There's just no way to make people do what you want. I think most people here, myself included, are assuming that you want a deeper connection here and are guessing at ways that might make that happen. But, really, some guys are clueless, some are malicious, some are flakey, some are manipulative. I think you've just been unlucky with these two. It really sucks to invest in someone, even a few dates, where they seem pretty cool and then have them not turn out that cool. But, I think it goes with the territory. The whole, "you gotta kiss a lot of toads" thing.
posted by amanda at 9:11 AM on August 17, 2010 [2 favorites]
Well, again, what do you want? I don't necessarily see anything that you need to do. You can't make these guys be decent guys who answer phone calls. If you call and leave a message and they don't get back to you...? Why do you think that has anything to do with your behavior or way that you're dating? There's nothing you can do there. You can dress in Victorian lace and play the coquette and they might not call you back. You can slap them in the face and call them Sally and they might not call you back.
So, I think people are assuming that you're looking for a relationship but if you're getting what you want to get out of this then everything's fine? If all you want is for them to say "goodbye" when they're done with you, I suppose you could mention that right off the bat. But, I don't know if that'll help.
There's just no way to make people do what you want. I think most people here, myself included, are assuming that you want a deeper connection here and are guessing at ways that might make that happen. But, really, some guys are clueless, some are malicious, some are flakey, some are manipulative. I think you've just been unlucky with these two. It really sucks to invest in someone, even a few dates, where they seem pretty cool and then have them not turn out that cool. But, I think it goes with the territory. The whole, "you gotta kiss a lot of toads" thing.
posted by amanda at 9:11 AM on August 17, 2010 [2 favorites]
Actually, just sex is fine. In the second instance, we had several serious conversations about becoming sexually intimate while keeping up other relationships and seeing other people. It was my understanding that it would be more than twice, though.
Serious question: How did you arrive at this understanding? Was it explicitly and verbally communicated or what?
Keeping in mind that I'm an internet stranger with no real idea of your body language, his or how conversations between you guys went and going by your premise that there is a problem, then I'd say it's you, worrying too much.
Seriously, it's been two guys and you seem to be overreacting. Perhaps you're overreacting with them in some way? It sounds like you are beanplating this to death and that's not sexy.
posted by nomadicink at 9:14 AM on August 17, 2010
Serious question: How did you arrive at this understanding? Was it explicitly and verbally communicated or what?
Keeping in mind that I'm an internet stranger with no real idea of your body language, his or how conversations between you guys went and going by your premise that there is a problem, then I'd say it's you, worrying too much.
Seriously, it's been two guys and you seem to be overreacting. Perhaps you're overreacting with them in some way? It sounds like you are beanplating this to death and that's not sexy.
posted by nomadicink at 9:14 AM on August 17, 2010
Maybe you people know different guys than I do, but the apartment would have to have 50 cats and smell horrific and look like a set from "Psycho" to prevent a guy from returning to have sex with a woman he had had sex with previously. Same goes for the medicine cabinet.
Unless she's making him cocoa in the morning and starting conversations about when they're going to see her parents on the weekend after the first time they sleep together, many (not all) guys will put up with just about anything to have regular sex with a woman. So I think the apartment stuff is a red herring. If the apartment was that bad, they'd just say "hey, I have to get up early, can we go back to my place?"
I agree that you don't have a pattern here with two, especially not with the additional information you've just provided. You just ran into two guys who didn't have the maturity to actually end the burgeoning relationship; they got advice to just stop responding to you.
I also think that you can tell what kind of guy you're with and whether he's dating just to get sex or if he's looking for a relationship. You can then choose to still have sex with him, with no expectations, or to not have sex with him because he wants a relationship. It's super easy to say "don't have sex" but I too know plenty of people who slept with their life partners on the first or second date (or in one case, it was a hookup at a wedding where they never thought they'd see each other again). You sound smart and savvy so I don't think you have a bad filter.
BUT in all of the cases above, except for the wedding hookup, the people had a frame of reference for the other person IRL. I think that might be the missing element here. So I'm not saying "don't have sex right away!!111" I'm saying that you might want to get more of a RL frame of reference before deciding whether or not they're someone you want to sleep with. It's not about Rules, it's about forging a better connection.
posted by micawber at 9:19 AM on August 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
Unless she's making him cocoa in the morning and starting conversations about when they're going to see her parents on the weekend after the first time they sleep together, many (not all) guys will put up with just about anything to have regular sex with a woman. So I think the apartment stuff is a red herring. If the apartment was that bad, they'd just say "hey, I have to get up early, can we go back to my place?"
I agree that you don't have a pattern here with two, especially not with the additional information you've just provided. You just ran into two guys who didn't have the maturity to actually end the burgeoning relationship; they got advice to just stop responding to you.
I also think that you can tell what kind of guy you're with and whether he's dating just to get sex or if he's looking for a relationship. You can then choose to still have sex with him, with no expectations, or to not have sex with him because he wants a relationship. It's super easy to say "don't have sex" but I too know plenty of people who slept with their life partners on the first or second date (or in one case, it was a hookup at a wedding where they never thought they'd see each other again). You sound smart and savvy so I don't think you have a bad filter.
BUT in all of the cases above, except for the wedding hookup, the people had a frame of reference for the other person IRL. I think that might be the missing element here. So I'm not saying "don't have sex right away!!111" I'm saying that you might want to get more of a RL frame of reference before deciding whether or not they're someone you want to sleep with. It's not about Rules, it's about forging a better connection.
posted by micawber at 9:19 AM on August 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
...relatively new to dating
Might this be the problem? You're new to dating, so maybe you have certain notions bout how things should go, when in reality what you're describing just sounds like a two not so great guys in a row, which is hardly unusual.
posted by nomadicink at 9:23 AM on August 17, 2010
Might this be the problem? You're new to dating, so maybe you have certain notions bout how things should go, when in reality what you're describing just sounds like a two not so great guys in a row, which is hardly unusual.
posted by nomadicink at 9:23 AM on August 17, 2010
Sorry, just to make things super clear: Are you actually attempting phone calls that they are not answering, or are you assuming they won't answer because they didn't answer texts? How many texts did you send each of these guys before you gave up?
posted by Menthol at 9:25 AM on August 17, 2010
posted by Menthol at 9:25 AM on August 17, 2010
Here's the thing about casual sex in a relationship that is new. I am just one guy and a a gay guy at that, but I think this might be a common feeling, and I've had plenty of talk about sex with my fellow guys. (I don't know why I'm that friend, but I am.)
First time is awesome because it's new and you're just glad you've been invited in and it's such a rush and a little bit scary. You'll take that step without thinking about it much because...awesome!
Second time is awesome because it's newish with so much less of the fear because you know you've done it well enough before to get invited back. It's often better than the first time for this reason. And being invited back the second time is somehow a vote of confidence in your first time's performance so... awesome! You'll again do it without much thought.
Third time doesn't have the new or the vote of confidence feeling. That's not saying it can't be totally much more awesome. But by this point, you're thinking about it, it feels like much more of a commitment than the other two, and if you're not sure where something is going, you feel like you might be leading someone on if you're not sure where you want it to go.
I don't know if you have enough data for a pattern here. This is just one of the many things that can explain this happening twice in a row because I'm sure I'm not alone in this worldview (whether or not it is right).
I think you can't do anything differently because I don't think you're doing anything wrong. You should keep being yourself, you should have sex when you want to, and you will eventually find a guy with whom you connect fully in the way you want. You shouldn't do anything that makes you uncomfortable. You can't make guys do what they don't want to do or like something they don't like anymore than they can do the same to you. It sucks, so the best thing you can do is be careful with your own feelings and have fun along the way.
Good luck!
posted by MCMikeNamara at 9:26 AM on August 17, 2010 [12 favorites]
First time is awesome because it's new and you're just glad you've been invited in and it's such a rush and a little bit scary. You'll take that step without thinking about it much because...awesome!
Second time is awesome because it's newish with so much less of the fear because you know you've done it well enough before to get invited back. It's often better than the first time for this reason. And being invited back the second time is somehow a vote of confidence in your first time's performance so... awesome! You'll again do it without much thought.
Third time doesn't have the new or the vote of confidence feeling. That's not saying it can't be totally much more awesome. But by this point, you're thinking about it, it feels like much more of a commitment than the other two, and if you're not sure where something is going, you feel like you might be leading someone on if you're not sure where you want it to go.
I don't know if you have enough data for a pattern here. This is just one of the many things that can explain this happening twice in a row because I'm sure I'm not alone in this worldview (whether or not it is right).
I think you can't do anything differently because I don't think you're doing anything wrong. You should keep being yourself, you should have sex when you want to, and you will eventually find a guy with whom you connect fully in the way you want. You shouldn't do anything that makes you uncomfortable. You can't make guys do what they don't want to do or like something they don't like anymore than they can do the same to you. It sucks, so the best thing you can do is be careful with your own feelings and have fun along the way.
Good luck!
posted by MCMikeNamara at 9:26 AM on August 17, 2010 [12 favorites]
I didn't especially want a super-serious LTR with either of these guys, but an adios would have been nice.
But they don't feel they have any responsibility to provide closure. Because it's not serious at all to them. You're giving off conflicting vibes in this question, so I can't imagine what you're giving off in person. Do you want a relationship, or do you want casual sex? In my experience, casual sex rarely turns into a relationship. You can complain that you shouldn't have to play hard to get, but the fact is that waiting is more likely to lead to a relationship.
OK, you say that "just sex" is fine. Then why didn't these guys want more "just sex" (with you)? Who knows? My guess is that they like novelty and variety, and were probably having sex with others while you were getting to know them, and perhaps decided they like one of those people better, or decided to move onto the next shiny new thing. You can drive yourself absolutely insane wondering what is wrong with you, or you can continue to date/sex people until you find one who is totally accepting of you and your smelly cat apartment. (kidding on the cat) Really, the search for "what's wrong with me" is just an endless rabbit hole. Nothing's wrong with you, and nothing's wrong with those guys. You're not a match.
Note that I am NOT being judgmental, as it would be extremely hypocritical. You are free to do whatever you like; it's just that those actions tend to produce certain results, and if you don't like the results, you have to take different action.
posted by desjardins at 9:31 AM on August 17, 2010 [13 favorites]
But they don't feel they have any responsibility to provide closure. Because it's not serious at all to them. You're giving off conflicting vibes in this question, so I can't imagine what you're giving off in person. Do you want a relationship, or do you want casual sex? In my experience, casual sex rarely turns into a relationship. You can complain that you shouldn't have to play hard to get, but the fact is that waiting is more likely to lead to a relationship.
OK, you say that "just sex" is fine. Then why didn't these guys want more "just sex" (with you)? Who knows? My guess is that they like novelty and variety, and were probably having sex with others while you were getting to know them, and perhaps decided they like one of those people better, or decided to move onto the next shiny new thing. You can drive yourself absolutely insane wondering what is wrong with you, or you can continue to date/sex people until you find one who is totally accepting of you and your smelly cat apartment. (kidding on the cat) Really, the search for "what's wrong with me" is just an endless rabbit hole. Nothing's wrong with you, and nothing's wrong with those guys. You're not a match.
Note that I am NOT being judgmental, as it would be extremely hypocritical. You are free to do whatever you like; it's just that those actions tend to produce certain results, and if you don't like the results, you have to take different action.
posted by desjardins at 9:31 AM on August 17, 2010 [13 favorites]
What's the decor like in your apartment? Do you have your old childhood stuffed animals on the bed, for example?
posted by hazyjane at 9:34 AM on August 17, 2010
posted by hazyjane at 9:34 AM on August 17, 2010
Maybe you people know different guys than I do, but the apartment would have to have 50 cats and smell horrific and look like a set from "Psycho" to prevent a guy from returning to have sex with a woman he had had sex with previously. Same goes for the medicine cabinet.
Unless she's making him cocoa in the morning and starting conversations about when they're going to see her parents on the weekend after the first time they sleep together, many (not all) guys will put up with just about anything to have regular sex with a woman.
To build on this - I'm a woman and I really wonder about people who are easily put off by things like cat hair/tarot cards/stuffed animals - do you want someone who is such a picky-pants? Just because life tends to be messy, and when the time comes that you do want a long-term relationship, you don't want someone who will head for the hills if you forget to vacuum or get in a sentimental mood and leave your childhood teddy bear out lying around. Just for me, I cut people a lot of slack - if I don't need a gas mask to enter your digs, if you don't have a place that can be featured on "Hoarders," if you don't have excrement on the floor or body parts in your freezer, if you have the grace to hide your hard-core porn collection - I'm more concerned about what YOU are like.
Unless you have buffalo breath or are talking marriage and kid's names the morning after, I surmise you've had a string of bad luck. The upside to online dating is that you meet more people. The downside is...that you meet more people. They're not vetted by your friends or someone you've run into at the library for months. You're bound to meet a lot of guys you don't know well and consequently more flakes.
You're in your late twenties - are these guys your own age? If they're younger than you, maybe they're just not all grown-up yet and still learning their social skills.
Otherwise, hold off on the sex if that is what YOU want. But unless this gets into a hardcore pattern (say five or more disappearing dudes) maybe just chalk it up to bad luck and call it "experience."
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 9:55 AM on August 17, 2010 [2 favorites]
Unless she's making him cocoa in the morning and starting conversations about when they're going to see her parents on the weekend after the first time they sleep together, many (not all) guys will put up with just about anything to have regular sex with a woman.
To build on this - I'm a woman and I really wonder about people who are easily put off by things like cat hair/tarot cards/stuffed animals - do you want someone who is such a picky-pants? Just because life tends to be messy, and when the time comes that you do want a long-term relationship, you don't want someone who will head for the hills if you forget to vacuum or get in a sentimental mood and leave your childhood teddy bear out lying around. Just for me, I cut people a lot of slack - if I don't need a gas mask to enter your digs, if you don't have a place that can be featured on "Hoarders," if you don't have excrement on the floor or body parts in your freezer, if you have the grace to hide your hard-core porn collection - I'm more concerned about what YOU are like.
Unless you have buffalo breath or are talking marriage and kid's names the morning after, I surmise you've had a string of bad luck. The upside to online dating is that you meet more people. The downside is...that you meet more people. They're not vetted by your friends or someone you've run into at the library for months. You're bound to meet a lot of guys you don't know well and consequently more flakes.
You're in your late twenties - are these guys your own age? If they're younger than you, maybe they're just not all grown-up yet and still learning their social skills.
Otherwise, hold off on the sex if that is what YOU want. But unless this gets into a hardcore pattern (say five or more disappearing dudes) maybe just chalk it up to bad luck and call it "experience."
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 9:55 AM on August 17, 2010 [2 favorites]
What the hell am I doing wrong?
Nothing. this is how its supposed to happen. 90% of intial things go wildly wrong and then 10% work out long term. 10% of those last a lifetime.
It ain't easy.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:56 AM on August 17, 2010 [10 favorites]
Nothing. this is how its supposed to happen. 90% of intial things go wildly wrong and then 10% work out long term. 10% of those last a lifetime.
It ain't easy.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:56 AM on August 17, 2010 [10 favorites]
You can complain that you shouldn't have to play hard to get, but the fact is that waiting is more likely to lead to a relationship.
I don't think it's a cause and effect situation- I don't think waiting makes it more likely things will turn into a serious relationship. There's nothing magical about waiting. I just think you weed out the ones who aren't looking for a serious relationship if you wait.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:58 AM on August 17, 2010 [7 favorites]
I don't think it's a cause and effect situation- I don't think waiting makes it more likely things will turn into a serious relationship. There's nothing magical about waiting. I just think you weed out the ones who aren't looking for a serious relationship if you wait.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:58 AM on August 17, 2010 [7 favorites]
I hesitate to say this, because it's not true of all people who use online dating, but there is a signifigant portion of people on dating websites who are, well, desperate and lonely. They may have gotten out of a bad relationship, they may still BE in a bad relationship, but the point is they're coming from a headspace of "I just really need some lovin' and some ego boostin' after x years of singlehood/crappy abusive relationship/crappy boring marriage and online dating is the fastest way to do it" There's a spectrum for these types of people online, generally it's a more recognizable cliche on say, craigslist rather than Eharmony. You may even want to consider "trading up" dating sites. In order to avoid these kinds of scenarios you have to understand a guy's headspace in which he's desperate to appear charming (and may even surprise himself with how easy it is) because he's stuck in a rut or whatever. This is not about you, it's completely about them.
posted by Nixy at 10:24 AM on August 17, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by Nixy at 10:24 AM on August 17, 2010 [2 favorites]
I agree with others who have said her apartment giving off "vibes" is probably a red herring, if anything. The fact you are dealing with 1) online dating where many of the guys you meet could possibly be dating others simultaneously and 2) people in their 20s (I assume) means you are going to run into this situation often. I would be somewhat more concerned if you were NOT having sex with them and this were happening, because then I would think you might be acting bizarrely or have a really weird lair where you're bring them back to. Using Occam's razor as a guide, you have simply run into two guys who were primarily interested in sex, got what they wanted and did not have the class/guts/balls etc. to end things with you. Move on, and in the future hope for the best but expect the worst. Good luck!
posted by the foreground at 10:38 AM on August 17, 2010
posted by the foreground at 10:38 AM on August 17, 2010
I didn't especially want a super-serious LTR with either of these guys, but an adios would have been nice.
Twice is not a pattern; this is just a part of dating. Do you think receiving two texts that each said, "the sex was great, your apartment is very nice, but I'm really not interested? " would have satisfied you? You're human and you want to know why you were rejected. They're human and they don't want to get into long explanations with someone they barely know. The sex is just confusing the issue. I agree with Amanda, that you are conflicted about what you really want.
"The Rules" are unpopular. But do you seriously believe that anyone, male or female, can be "tricked" into a long-term relationship by withholding sex?
posted by uans at 12:02 PM on August 17, 2010
Twice is not a pattern; this is just a part of dating. Do you think receiving two texts that each said, "the sex was great, your apartment is very nice, but I'm really not interested? " would have satisfied you? You're human and you want to know why you were rejected. They're human and they don't want to get into long explanations with someone they barely know. The sex is just confusing the issue. I agree with Amanda, that you are conflicted about what you really want.
"The Rules" are unpopular. But do you seriously believe that anyone, male or female, can be "tricked" into a long-term relationship by withholding sex?
posted by uans at 12:02 PM on August 17, 2010
I don't think it's a pattern; you may have just met 2 people who weren't right for you. It happens.
But of you want to consider changing something, maybe hold off on sex, only because it's the one commonality in those 2 situations.
posted by dzaz at 12:29 PM on August 17, 2010
But of you want to consider changing something, maybe hold off on sex, only because it's the one commonality in those 2 situations.
posted by dzaz at 12:29 PM on August 17, 2010
In the second instance, we had several serious conversations about becoming sexually intimate while keeping up other relationships and seeing other people.
This is what I used to do when I had no real interest in the person and just wanted to get laid. I don't recall any of those "relationships" ending with a phone call or anything -- they just ended and we both moved on to greener pastures. That's just the nature of just-for-fun relations.
posted by coolguymichael at 12:32 PM on August 17, 2010
This is what I used to do when I had no real interest in the person and just wanted to get laid. I don't recall any of those "relationships" ending with a phone call or anything -- they just ended and we both moved on to greener pastures. That's just the nature of just-for-fun relations.
posted by coolguymichael at 12:32 PM on August 17, 2010
I agree with others who have said her apartment giving off "vibes" is probably a red herring, if anything.
When I was in my 20s, one of my roommates went off on vacation. She came back and said "nobody watered the plants!," to which I replied "We have plants?"
Dudes in their 20's don't pay attention to decorating.
posted by Ironmouth at 12:37 PM on August 17, 2010
When I was in my 20s, one of my roommates went off on vacation. She came back and said "nobody watered the plants!," to which I replied "We have plants?"
Dudes in their 20's don't pay attention to decorating.
posted by Ironmouth at 12:37 PM on August 17, 2010
Yeah, unfortunately I think this has just been a rough hazing into the world of dating in your late 20's. You're normal and almost certainly did nothing wrong. Don't take it personally or try to figure out what is "wrong" with you.
I don't really have an opinion on the delaying sex or not thing. It's a bit of a catch-22. It's either you're defining the relationship as being "just for sex" if you have sex to soon, but if you don't you run the risk of being called a tease, "playing games" or demonstrating that you are not sexually compatible/have enough chemistry with the guy if your hormones aren't raging to such an extent that there is absolutely no way you could not have sex on the second date.
Even outside of the very valid point that it *shouldn't* matter whether you have sex right away or delay it a bit, on a purely practical level I don't think it much matters one way or another. Most guys who want a relationship with a woman, as least in my experience and observation, are happy to have sex right away or won't mind waiting a reasonable amount of time. Essentially it's not a deal breaker either way, especially by the time you get to your late 20s, if you really like the person.
And to build on ThePinkSuperhero's comment about men and sex, it took me a long time (and being an impartial observer of many of my male friends with other women) to learn that a guy can be very attracted to you, can think you are smart and funny, that you are compatible, and that you would make a great girlfriend and yet still not want to be in a relationship with you for no reason. Or at least not one they can articulate. The same guy will whine about wanting a girlfriend and then some great girl comes along, everything is going great, then 2 or 3 dates in he's gone. The only answer I have ever been able to get out of my guy friends to explain their actions is essentially "if we kept dating it would have pretty quickly turned into a relationship." Which of course I respond but you said she was perfect and that you want a relationship, to which they have no response. It's very odd and all I can figure is that there is a large group of men who want to want to have a relationship, but just really aren't quite there in their life so they initiate a lot of relationships and then back off when they actually see it becoming a reality.
So the moral of the story is don't take it personally. Don't let this wreck your self esteem. There is nothing wrong with you, this is just how it is. 9 out of 10 times when I have found out way after the fact why a guy stopped calling me it had nothing to do with me or was an odd and bizarre reason (your quasi friend who you can't stand met me twice for 2 minutes and didn't like me for no particular reason, but now 6 months later you want me back?????) Don't let yourself get bitter and just get back out there.
posted by whoaali at 2:49 PM on August 17, 2010 [4 favorites]
I don't really have an opinion on the delaying sex or not thing. It's a bit of a catch-22. It's either you're defining the relationship as being "just for sex" if you have sex to soon, but if you don't you run the risk of being called a tease, "playing games" or demonstrating that you are not sexually compatible/have enough chemistry with the guy if your hormones aren't raging to such an extent that there is absolutely no way you could not have sex on the second date.
Even outside of the very valid point that it *shouldn't* matter whether you have sex right away or delay it a bit, on a purely practical level I don't think it much matters one way or another. Most guys who want a relationship with a woman, as least in my experience and observation, are happy to have sex right away or won't mind waiting a reasonable amount of time. Essentially it's not a deal breaker either way, especially by the time you get to your late 20s, if you really like the person.
And to build on ThePinkSuperhero's comment about men and sex, it took me a long time (and being an impartial observer of many of my male friends with other women) to learn that a guy can be very attracted to you, can think you are smart and funny, that you are compatible, and that you would make a great girlfriend and yet still not want to be in a relationship with you for no reason. Or at least not one they can articulate. The same guy will whine about wanting a girlfriend and then some great girl comes along, everything is going great, then 2 or 3 dates in he's gone. The only answer I have ever been able to get out of my guy friends to explain their actions is essentially "if we kept dating it would have pretty quickly turned into a relationship." Which of course I respond but you said she was perfect and that you want a relationship, to which they have no response. It's very odd and all I can figure is that there is a large group of men who want to want to have a relationship, but just really aren't quite there in their life so they initiate a lot of relationships and then back off when they actually see it becoming a reality.
So the moral of the story is don't take it personally. Don't let this wreck your self esteem. There is nothing wrong with you, this is just how it is. 9 out of 10 times when I have found out way after the fact why a guy stopped calling me it had nothing to do with me or was an odd and bizarre reason (your quasi friend who you can't stand met me twice for 2 minutes and didn't like me for no particular reason, but now 6 months later you want me back?????) Don't let yourself get bitter and just get back out there.
posted by whoaali at 2:49 PM on August 17, 2010 [4 favorites]
Sorry, I didn't read every response, but in my experience with online dating, a lot of people approach the whole thing as a smorgasbord (sp) of different types of people they can meet. So it's possible the guys you are meeting have a "grass is greener" mentality and are just dating around, not spending too much time on one woman until they meet one they really, really like. So, if the sex is making you emotionally attached, it might be best to hold off until you meet a keeper. I think you will, it just might not happen very quickly.
posted by bearette at 6:36 PM on August 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by bearette at 6:36 PM on August 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
Some comments on others' responses, to demonstrate the diversity that is in human mating:
Menthol: For what it's worth, the women I have been most attracted to and pined for the most were the women I had little or no physical intimacy with; the women I was physically intimate with right away, I almost never developed real feelings for. Your mileage may vary.
My mileage varies completely from yours. Of the 4 biggest relationships in my life, all were consummated within 4 dates. One started out as a one-night stand.
amanda: I guess I'm still baffled at the people who want to treat sex like it's the equivalent of a handshake. There was a long discussion here about the meanings hidden and apparent of a date sharing his/her ice-cream and yet, when sex comes up there's always a few people trying to say that it means nothing.
Maybe we're reading different forums somehow, but no post has suggested "sex is like a handshake" to me. Sex is important. That doesn't mean it should be used in a carrot-and-a-stick equation.
And, from the OP: I didn't especially want a super-serious LTR with either of these guys, but an adios would have been nice.
It's not in the nature of human beings to go out of their way to make awkward social gestures. Female fuck-friends have never called me to give an "adios" when they have moved on for whatever reason.
posted by IAmBroom at 9:56 AM on August 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
Menthol: For what it's worth, the women I have been most attracted to and pined for the most were the women I had little or no physical intimacy with; the women I was physically intimate with right away, I almost never developed real feelings for. Your mileage may vary.
My mileage varies completely from yours. Of the 4 biggest relationships in my life, all were consummated within 4 dates. One started out as a one-night stand.
amanda: I guess I'm still baffled at the people who want to treat sex like it's the equivalent of a handshake. There was a long discussion here about the meanings hidden and apparent of a date sharing his/her ice-cream and yet, when sex comes up there's always a few people trying to say that it means nothing.
Maybe we're reading different forums somehow, but no post has suggested "sex is like a handshake" to me. Sex is important. That doesn't mean it should be used in a carrot-and-a-stick equation.
And, from the OP: I didn't especially want a super-serious LTR with either of these guys, but an adios would have been nice.
It's not in the nature of human beings to go out of their way to make awkward social gestures. Female fuck-friends have never called me to give an "adios" when they have moved on for whatever reason.
posted by IAmBroom at 9:56 AM on August 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
mean it should be used in a carrot-and-a-stick equation.
Again, not everyone who is recommending to look at the role of sex is envisioning it as a "carrot and stick." I don't think that refusing sex will make someone who's not at all interested in a relationship suddenly interested, nor will having sex early deter someone who's truly interested.
Instead I think, like some others here, that beginning the dating process by emphasizing that you're interested in something a bit longer term is a great way to weed out people who are not interested in relationships. And in addition to stating that, by following those words up with action and waiting a little while to get into the sex, you can further weed out the people who are saying they want a long-term relationship, when really they're hoping more for sex in the near term and either playing you a little, or actually think they want a relationship when really they don't.
posted by Miko at 10:25 AM on August 18, 2010 [2 favorites]
Again, not everyone who is recommending to look at the role of sex is envisioning it as a "carrot and stick." I don't think that refusing sex will make someone who's not at all interested in a relationship suddenly interested, nor will having sex early deter someone who's truly interested.
Instead I think, like some others here, that beginning the dating process by emphasizing that you're interested in something a bit longer term is a great way to weed out people who are not interested in relationships. And in addition to stating that, by following those words up with action and waiting a little while to get into the sex, you can further weed out the people who are saying they want a long-term relationship, when really they're hoping more for sex in the near term and either playing you a little, or actually think they want a relationship when really they don't.
posted by Miko at 10:25 AM on August 18, 2010 [2 favorites]
i think you're jumping the sex gun... Just hold off a little longer.
posted by shortbus at 11:10 AM on August 19, 2010
posted by shortbus at 11:10 AM on August 19, 2010
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posted by Miko at 7:13 AM on August 17, 2010 [1 favorite]