Is it possible to move to Sweden without working/going to school?
August 7, 2010 4:08 AM Subscribe
Is it possible to move to Sweden without working/going to school?
My wife and I are US citizens and would like to move to Sweden with our three-year-old son. We don't have jobs there or wish to go to school there though. We have a US source of income that would allow us to cover expenses. Is this possible in any way?
My wife and I are US citizens and would like to move to Sweden with our three-year-old son. We don't have jobs there or wish to go to school there though. We have a US source of income that would allow us to cover expenses. Is this possible in any way?
Response by poster: Oh, I am aware we can visit and should to decide if we are sure. It's good advice, but let's just say we are sure. Is it possible given the situation described?
posted by doomtop at 4:43 AM on August 7, 2010
posted by doomtop at 4:43 AM on August 7, 2010
There's forms to apply for residents at migrationsverket, a quick search through didn't get me much wiser and the only US citizen that I know who has moved here was married to a Swede (and as I recall, complained a lot about the silly "are you really married" hoops a la the movie "green card" they had to jump through. They had been married for 9 years and had a baby!) In their case she was looking for permanent residency and work permits though, you are not. here are the application forms for the various types of residency. You want the "Residence permit and residence permit for visits longer than 90 days (Application for RP, AP, TD and CRS) "
Also, come live in Malmö, it's a nice city. :)
posted by dabitch at 5:35 AM on August 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
Also, come live in Malmö, it's a nice city. :)
posted by dabitch at 5:35 AM on August 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
Best answer: It's seems to be possible if one of you starts your own company in Sweden and earns enough through the company to support the whole family while in Sweden.
Maybe you could set up a consultanty firm in Sweden that is hired by your current work place, but that might be seen as cheating...
Otherwise it would be hard as far as I know, but someone else might know for sure. You could also call Migrationsverket to be sure.
posted by rpn at 5:36 AM on August 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
Maybe you could set up a consultanty firm in Sweden that is hired by your current work place, but that might be seen as cheating...
Otherwise it would be hard as far as I know, but someone else might know for sure. You could also call Migrationsverket to be sure.
posted by rpn at 5:36 AM on August 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: That's a very I interesting idea, rpn. However, I think it would have the unfortunate side effect of causing our income to be taxed by both countries.
posted by doomtop at 6:30 AM on August 7, 2010
posted by doomtop at 6:30 AM on August 7, 2010
That's a very I interesting idea, rpn. However, I think it would have the unfortunate side effect of causing our income to be taxed by both countries.
Pretty sure that's going to happen anyway. Sweden - like all European countries - taxes you if you live there and the US taxes you if you're a citizen.
posted by I_pity_the_fool at 6:44 AM on August 7, 2010
Pretty sure that's going to happen anyway. Sweden - like all European countries - taxes you if you live there and the US taxes you if you're a citizen.
posted by I_pity_the_fool at 6:44 AM on August 7, 2010
Of course, Sweden and the US have almost certainly signed a double tax treaty. So you'll only be taxed on the highest of the two rates. You'll still have to file twice though.
posted by I_pity_the_fool at 7:01 AM on August 7, 2010
posted by I_pity_the_fool at 7:01 AM on August 7, 2010
Ok a few points: you mention "We have a US source of income that would allow us to cover expenses.", but what does this mean really? Have you baselined this against costs in Sweden or judged solely relative to US costs? If you haven't been there before you'll be surprised at how different prices are. dabitch can comment more authoritatively than I, but I suspect you'll see regional cost variations as well, perhaps significant.
"That's a very I interesting idea, rpn. However, I think it would have the unfortunate side effect of causing our income to be taxed by both countries."
Any money that enters Sweden more than likely will be assessed Swedish taxes. Generally when you emigrate to another nation you can bring a specific sum in tax free, one time, but any regular income from abroad will most certainly trigger a tax event.
This is consistent with the practice most countries employ. It really comes down to this: you can't avoid local taxes by emigrating. Simply by living there you and your family will be using the Swedish infrastructure and they'll clearly want to be paid for this. And you'll still be liable for US taxes on income you might generate in Sweden, but the first $84,500 (equivalent in local currency) will be free of taxes on the US side.
I_pity_the_fool is absolutely correct; Americans living abroad still have to file US taxes, even if there is no tax liability. Big PIA, especially when the tax years don't precisely overlap (e.g., US & UK). But since you mention you've got a US based source of income, living abroad won't absolve you of the obligation to file a US return and possible pax US taxes on that revenue (unless it originates from a tax free source, in which case you'll more than likely still have to file US returns).
Now that being said, if you do decide to undertake the business route, depending upon how you structure your entity and the Swedish tax code, your nominal personal rate may end up lower. In the UK, for instance, one can establish a company and pay yourself the lowest salary allowed (sufficient to cover NHS contributions), and then pay out the rest of income generated by the company as tax free dividends. Not sure if similar structures are allowed / encouraged in Sweden, but it might be possible to achieve your goals in this manner. Seems like you might want to seek professional (i.e., NOT internet) advise regarding this, if for no other reason than to avoid an expensive mistake.
mdonley raises a good point about visiting. Although I live in England I've spent a fair amount of time in Sweden, and I'd suggest more than a casual visit to someone entertaining the idea of emigrating to any nation. You really should go to Sweden several times, in all seasons.
posted by Mutant at 7:27 AM on August 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
"That's a very I interesting idea, rpn. However, I think it would have the unfortunate side effect of causing our income to be taxed by both countries."
Any money that enters Sweden more than likely will be assessed Swedish taxes. Generally when you emigrate to another nation you can bring a specific sum in tax free, one time, but any regular income from abroad will most certainly trigger a tax event.
This is consistent with the practice most countries employ. It really comes down to this: you can't avoid local taxes by emigrating. Simply by living there you and your family will be using the Swedish infrastructure and they'll clearly want to be paid for this. And you'll still be liable for US taxes on income you might generate in Sweden, but the first $84,500 (equivalent in local currency) will be free of taxes on the US side.
I_pity_the_fool is absolutely correct; Americans living abroad still have to file US taxes, even if there is no tax liability. Big PIA, especially when the tax years don't precisely overlap (e.g., US & UK). But since you mention you've got a US based source of income, living abroad won't absolve you of the obligation to file a US return and possible pax US taxes on that revenue (unless it originates from a tax free source, in which case you'll more than likely still have to file US returns).
Now that being said, if you do decide to undertake the business route, depending upon how you structure your entity and the Swedish tax code, your nominal personal rate may end up lower. In the UK, for instance, one can establish a company and pay yourself the lowest salary allowed (sufficient to cover NHS contributions), and then pay out the rest of income generated by the company as tax free dividends. Not sure if similar structures are allowed / encouraged in Sweden, but it might be possible to achieve your goals in this manner. Seems like you might want to seek professional (i.e., NOT internet) advise regarding this, if for no other reason than to avoid an expensive mistake.
mdonley raises a good point about visiting. Although I live in England I've spent a fair amount of time in Sweden, and I'd suggest more than a casual visit to someone entertaining the idea of emigrating to any nation. You really should go to Sweden several times, in all seasons.
posted by Mutant at 7:27 AM on August 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
@doomtop
"However, I think it would have the unfortunate side effect of causing our income to be taxed by both countries."
No, it does not work like this. Likely there is also a double taxation treaty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_taxation
It works something like this.
The first 80k (per Person?) you tax only in Sweden, not in the USA. Everything above you have to pay taxes in Sweden and in the USA but AFAIK you can deduct Swedish taxes from US taxes. Hence, due to my understanding, it is only a problem if you make a shitload of money as a US citizen in a low tax country.
posted by yoyo_nyc at 11:21 AM on August 7, 2010
"However, I think it would have the unfortunate side effect of causing our income to be taxed by both countries."
No, it does not work like this. Likely there is also a double taxation treaty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_taxation
It works something like this.
The first 80k (per Person?) you tax only in Sweden, not in the USA. Everything above you have to pay taxes in Sweden and in the USA but AFAIK you can deduct Swedish taxes from US taxes. Hence, due to my understanding, it is only a problem if you make a shitload of money as a US citizen in a low tax country.
posted by yoyo_nyc at 11:21 AM on August 7, 2010
Response by poster: We are getting off in quite the wrong direction here. Forget about money/taxes/etc. My question is about how to legally live in Sweden for longer than 90 days. I don't care if it's becoming a citizen or what. How can it be done without working or going to school or marrying a Swede?
posted by doomtop at 8:48 PM on August 7, 2010
posted by doomtop at 8:48 PM on August 7, 2010
Response by poster: So is starting a company there the only way? (Technically, his would count as "working" btw.)
posted by doomtop at 8:51 PM on August 7, 2010
posted by doomtop at 8:51 PM on August 7, 2010
First of all, I AM surprised why would you move to Sweden from the US. Its certainly a better country than the US but not great if you want to make money. The conclusion depends on your situation and goals in life. Hence, YMMV.
If you don't know Swedish, then do NOT count on job that easily unless you hold an exceptional skill. You say that you want to go to school but are you aware of the new set of rules where non-EU citizens will pay a hefty fee for the school? Lastly, I heard, it will be about €7000 range, depending on the course. If you are aiming for PhD, then its fine. (PM me if you are interested, I may be able to help you.)
If you post your question with more information on The Local forums, you may get more information from foreigners living in Sweden.
BTW, I don't know what dabitch has in his/her mind. I didn't appreciate his/her last sentence, may be (s)he would like to elaborate on it. Malmö is a good place to live but recently has been plagued by anti-social elements from immigrated population, to an extent of occasional shootings in the middle of the street. Overall, Sweden is a very peaceful and safe country.
posted by zaxour at 10:22 PM on August 7, 2010
If you don't know Swedish, then do NOT count on job that easily unless you hold an exceptional skill. You say that you want to go to school but are you aware of the new set of rules where non-EU citizens will pay a hefty fee for the school? Lastly, I heard, it will be about €7000 range, depending on the course. If you are aiming for PhD, then its fine. (PM me if you are interested, I may be able to help you.)
If you post your question with more information on The Local forums, you may get more information from foreigners living in Sweden.
BTW, I don't know what dabitch has in his/her mind. I didn't appreciate his/her last sentence, may be (s)he would like to elaborate on it. Malmö is a good place to live but recently has been plagued by anti-social elements from immigrated population, to an extent of occasional shootings in the middle of the street. Overall, Sweden is a very peaceful and safe country.
posted by zaxour at 10:22 PM on August 7, 2010
Quick update,
No country on the top of the world will let you live in their country, unless you are ready to support yourself financially. So goes with any European country (including Sweden). Either you show hefty bank balance that you can support yourself in Sweden beyond 90 days or stop by Swedish embassy with a job offer in your hand. AFAIK, what you are aiming at (i.e. living in Sweden without working or going to school or marrying a Swede) is not possible.
Still, post on thelocal Forums, may be there is some help there.
posted by zaxour at 10:26 PM on August 7, 2010
No country on the top of the world will let you live in their country, unless you are ready to support yourself financially. So goes with any European country (including Sweden). Either you show hefty bank balance that you can support yourself in Sweden beyond 90 days or stop by Swedish embassy with a job offer in your hand. AFAIK, what you are aiming at (i.e. living in Sweden without working or going to school or marrying a Swede) is not possible.
Still, post on thelocal Forums, may be there is some help there.
posted by zaxour at 10:26 PM on August 7, 2010
Best answer: Most Western countries have a visa category which you can get by investing in a local company, or buying government bonds. You don't need to be studying or working to qualify, just pony up the cash. For instance, in Australia you can get one by buying $250K of government bonds. Sweden may have something similar.
posted by dave99 at 12:10 AM on August 8, 2010
posted by dave99 at 12:10 AM on August 8, 2010
"So is starting a company there the only way? (Technically, his would count as "working" btw.)"
Pretty much. The whole list of options is more like this:
* Have citizenship somewhere in the EU.
* Get a job.
* Prove that you can be profitably self-employed.
* Study here.
* Get married.
* Be in a relationship with a swede (a person whom you plan to ... cohabit with).
* Have a close family member who is a resident (parents, children).
* Seek asylum.
Since you don't want a job, don't want to study, already have a partner, have no children in Sweden, are from the US, and probably don't have parents here, the only option left to you is to "be self employed". Note that you will probably first have to show migrationsverket that you can be profitably self-employed, then at the end of the probation period you will likely also have to show them that you have succeeded in being profitably self-employed. That is, you actually have to do it, not just fake it.
Although not applicable for you, the rules regarding "cohabitation" (linked above) are very progressive and allow a lot of people to come to Sweden without marriage in a way not accepted by the US. You basically only need to prove that you're in a relationship in order to gain entry.
posted by beerbajay at 1:12 AM on August 8, 2010
Pretty much. The whole list of options is more like this:
* Have citizenship somewhere in the EU.
* Get a job.
* Prove that you can be profitably self-employed.
* Study here.
* Get married.
* Be in a relationship with a swede (a person whom you plan to ... cohabit with).
* Have a close family member who is a resident (parents, children).
* Seek asylum.
Since you don't want a job, don't want to study, already have a partner, have no children in Sweden, are from the US, and probably don't have parents here, the only option left to you is to "be self employed". Note that you will probably first have to show migrationsverket that you can be profitably self-employed, then at the end of the probation period you will likely also have to show them that you have succeeded in being profitably self-employed. That is, you actually have to do it, not just fake it.
Although not applicable for you, the rules regarding "cohabitation" (linked above) are very progressive and allow a lot of people to come to Sweden without marriage in a way not accepted by the US. You basically only need to prove that you're in a relationship in order to gain entry.
posted by beerbajay at 1:12 AM on August 8, 2010
Response by poster: I'm not sure why the confusion, but the question is not about money, or taxes, or anything financial related. Maybe because I made the mistake of commenting about taxes in a reply.
Let's just say for the sake of the question that I am self-employed as the owner of a U.S. company that pays me a million dollars a year. I want to be a U.S. citizen. I want to (legally) live in Sweden year-round. I want my wife to also live there with me, and my child.
Since there is obvious confusion: DO NOT WANT TO WORK THERE. DO NOT WANT TO GO TO SCHOOL THERE. Just want to live there (legally) longer than 90 days.
I don't care if Sweden is the best or worst place to live. I don't care if an answer is paying a $100,000 bribe to the Supreme Emperor Ruler of Sweden. The answers from rpn and dave99 are what I'm looking for. Got any more?
posted by doomtop at 5:52 PM on August 8, 2010
Let's just say for the sake of the question that I am self-employed as the owner of a U.S. company that pays me a million dollars a year. I want to be a U.S. citizen. I want to (legally) live in Sweden year-round. I want my wife to also live there with me, and my child.
Since there is obvious confusion: DO NOT WANT TO WORK THERE. DO NOT WANT TO GO TO SCHOOL THERE. Just want to live there (legally) longer than 90 days.
I don't care if Sweden is the best or worst place to live. I don't care if an answer is paying a $100,000 bribe to the Supreme Emperor Ruler of Sweden. The answers from rpn and dave99 are what I'm looking for. Got any more?
posted by doomtop at 5:52 PM on August 8, 2010
Response by poster: Answers that include buying my way in are acceptable, but not preferred.
Sorry if I put this question off-track by including an off-top comment.
posted by doomtop at 5:56 PM on August 8, 2010
Sorry if I put this question off-track by including an off-top comment.
posted by doomtop at 5:56 PM on August 8, 2010
Well, there is a King. He could probably get you in; give him a call.
posted by beerbajay at 10:54 PM on August 8, 2010
posted by beerbajay at 10:54 PM on August 8, 2010
zaxour ".....BTW, I don't know what dabitch has in his/her mind. I didn't appreciate his/her last sentence, may be (s)he would like to elaborate on it."
Sure ting, elaboration:
1) I'm female
2) I live in Malmö, and I like it here.
Thus: "Also, come live in Malmö, it's a nice city. :)" literally means: "come live in Malmö, it's a nice city." as I happen to think it is. You'll find identical immigration issues in Stockholm and Gothenburg and in satellite cities like Södertälje.
posted by dabitch at 5:59 AM on August 9, 2010
Sure ting, elaboration:
1) I'm female
2) I live in Malmö, and I like it here.
Thus: "Also, come live in Malmö, it's a nice city. :)" literally means: "come live in Malmö, it's a nice city." as I happen to think it is. You'll find identical immigration issues in Stockholm and Gothenburg and in satellite cities like Södertälje.
posted by dabitch at 5:59 AM on August 9, 2010
doomtop - back to your issue. A permanent residency in Sweden entails you to 1) Healthcare 2) schooling (for your 3 year old child who should be in preschool here if you live here - it's free if you only have them in school 15 hours a week, and very cheap if you have them for a few more hours a week, where only those who don't have a reported income are charged the top fee [so if you don't have a Swedish income, be prepared to back this up with paperwork else you end up on the high fee]). If you will be living here when your child reaches the legal school age, you must allow to go to school, as it's the law here. Thus, taxation will appear in the picture eventually.
For permanent residency, and possible Naturalisation you need to start at the application form I previously linked.
posted by dabitch at 6:06 AM on August 9, 2010
For permanent residency, and possible Naturalisation you need to start at the application form I previously linked.
posted by dabitch at 6:06 AM on August 9, 2010
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You can visit the Schengen zone for 90 days just by showing up, so if you'd like to give it a try for a few months, you can certainly experience life there, though things like opening a bank account or renting an apartment might be right.
Here's their official page for work permits.
posted by mdonley at 4:29 AM on August 7, 2010