Should I change how I dress because I show up other people at work?
July 21, 2010 6:23 PM Subscribe
It's been suggested at my new workplace that I "drop the tie" because I'm showing up everyone else. This goes against my personal style and freedom to wear what I want. How should I handle this?
So on the first day of my internship, one woman told me she'll tell me the same thing she told the previous intern - to drop the tie. It shows up everyone else in the office, because they all wear more casual clothes, plus if I walk next to them people will want to know why her boss is so young.
She pointed out that the other people in a nearby department across the corridor do dress better than they do, however. Vague comments were also made about them not getting some raise in the past that other people got(?).
When the head of the department came in, and they mentioned what they told me, he laughed and said not to let them give me a hard time.
I wear a pants, shirt, and tie. The official dress code is business casual and of course does not mention anything about wearing a tie.
There are a few reasons why I'm against dropping the tie. I:
1. paid money for it.
2. have my own personal sense of style, and dressing well makes me feel more comfortable, competent and confident.
3. shouldn't let other people control my actions, actions which aren't against the rule.
4. am not a jaded employee who's been there for years and am unhappy with my position. I'm new and determined to get what I want in life, and don't want to let someone else's lack of energy bring me down.
5. It's an IT department, and for all of my working career I've struggled to combat the usual reputation of the "IT guy" who dresses in jeans and polos and has bad taste in clothes.
Why I'm asking is because when I came back from lunch today, the person who recommended I "drop the tie" was speaking with someone else, and after I passed, I heard the conversation briefly stop for about 3 seconds, and then resume. During these 3 seconds I am absolutely positive that heads were nodded in my direction and eyebrows raised.
Why I'm concerned about this is because I don't want to alienate anyone. It's been a few days but so far I've been able to start what I think is a good rapport with a few of my colleagues who I've had one on one conversations (neither of them being the 2 mentioned in previous paragraph).
How should I handle this? I'm also open to criticism if anything about my attitude could be construed as offensive.
So on the first day of my internship, one woman told me she'll tell me the same thing she told the previous intern - to drop the tie. It shows up everyone else in the office, because they all wear more casual clothes, plus if I walk next to them people will want to know why her boss is so young.
She pointed out that the other people in a nearby department across the corridor do dress better than they do, however. Vague comments were also made about them not getting some raise in the past that other people got(?).
When the head of the department came in, and they mentioned what they told me, he laughed and said not to let them give me a hard time.
I wear a pants, shirt, and tie. The official dress code is business casual and of course does not mention anything about wearing a tie.
There are a few reasons why I'm against dropping the tie. I:
1. paid money for it.
2. have my own personal sense of style, and dressing well makes me feel more comfortable, competent and confident.
3. shouldn't let other people control my actions, actions which aren't against the rule.
4. am not a jaded employee who's been there for years and am unhappy with my position. I'm new and determined to get what I want in life, and don't want to let someone else's lack of energy bring me down.
5. It's an IT department, and for all of my working career I've struggled to combat the usual reputation of the "IT guy" who dresses in jeans and polos and has bad taste in clothes.
Why I'm asking is because when I came back from lunch today, the person who recommended I "drop the tie" was speaking with someone else, and after I passed, I heard the conversation briefly stop for about 3 seconds, and then resume. During these 3 seconds I am absolutely positive that heads were nodded in my direction and eyebrows raised.
Why I'm concerned about this is because I don't want to alienate anyone. It's been a few days but so far I've been able to start what I think is a good rapport with a few of my colleagues who I've had one on one conversations (neither of them being the 2 mentioned in previous paragraph).
How should I handle this? I'm also open to criticism if anything about my attitude could be construed as offensive.
She was trying to HELP you, not tell you what to do. Of course it's not against the rules, but she was saying that in that environment, it will be better for you if you don't wear a tie. She's almost certainly right. You can do what you want, but maybe don't just dismiss it as someone trying to control you.
posted by brainmouse at 6:26 PM on July 21, 2010 [32 favorites]
posted by brainmouse at 6:26 PM on July 21, 2010 [32 favorites]
Rock the tie mate. Don't compromise because of someone else's complex.
posted by drewgillson at 6:26 PM on July 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by drewgillson at 6:26 PM on July 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
I worked at an office where we all dressed like slobs except for one guy. He was friendly, competent and not a snob. Nobody really cared how he dressed. He didn't alienate anybody because he was friendly. I say keep the tie and don't mention it or bring any attention to it. After the second week you'll blend in and be just "tie guy".
posted by Omon Ra at 6:27 PM on July 21, 2010 [4 favorites]
posted by Omon Ra at 6:27 PM on July 21, 2010 [4 favorites]
Tell them to fuck off. If there is no dress code, then you can wear whatever you want.
posted by purephase at 6:29 PM on July 21, 2010
posted by purephase at 6:29 PM on July 21, 2010
Rock the tie. Man, if I were you I'd put on a jacket.
posted by Theloupgarou at 6:30 PM on July 21, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by Theloupgarou at 6:30 PM on July 21, 2010 [2 favorites]
You're an intern? How old are you? Honestly, if one of the college interns at our office (uniform = jeans) wore a tie to work everyone would think it was cute, like a kid desperate to appear professional who figured they could only do that with the correct clothes on.
FYI, having paid money for the tie is a terrible reason to be against losing it. You can wear it again someday.
posted by jacalata at 6:30 PM on July 21, 2010 [18 favorites]
FYI, having paid money for the tie is a terrible reason to be against losing it. You can wear it again someday.
posted by jacalata at 6:30 PM on July 21, 2010 [18 favorites]
Shouldn't let other people control my actions, actions which aren't against the rule.
I'm new and determined to get what I want in life, and don't want to let someone else's lack of energy bring me down.
It's the first day of an internship. If they advice you to drop the tie, you smile, thank them for the advice, and Drop. The. Tie.
I believe that's a significant part of how you "get what you want in life", too: learning to coexist, accepting compromise, and adapting to a new environment.
posted by _dario at 6:32 PM on July 21, 2010 [53 favorites]
I'm new and determined to get what I want in life, and don't want to let someone else's lack of energy bring me down.
It's the first day of an internship. If they advice you to drop the tie, you smile, thank them for the advice, and Drop. The. Tie.
I believe that's a significant part of how you "get what you want in life", too: learning to coexist, accepting compromise, and adapting to a new environment.
posted by _dario at 6:32 PM on July 21, 2010 [53 favorites]
It's an internship? Drop the tie.
If the point of this internship is to get a foot in the door at this company or even just a good recommendation, then you should treat it like an extended interview. If you end up there full time, I'd say give a couple months to establish yourself before asserting your personal style.
posted by mullacc at 6:34 PM on July 21, 2010 [5 favorites]
If the point of this internship is to get a foot in the door at this company or even just a good recommendation, then you should treat it like an extended interview. If you end up there full time, I'd say give a couple months to establish yourself before asserting your personal style.
posted by mullacc at 6:34 PM on July 21, 2010 [5 favorites]
Someone's going to say this more eloquently than I will, or they will throw the "dress for the job you want to be promoted to" trope, but here goes: choosing appropriate attire is a way of signalling that you fit in, and being able to blend into the office culture is one of the most important things to do as an intern. This matters considerably more than you perceive it to, and it's not a matter of fitting in being tantamount to being intentionally mediocre, either. I get that you like wearing ties, and that they help you get into a productive, professional mindspace, but keep in mind this bit that you said in the OP:
...dressing well makes me feel more comfortable, competent and confident
You don't need to wear a tie to be well-dressed. Your tie is not going to magically transform you into The Best Intern Ever. If the rest of your look is polished (shirts and pants cut to flatter your body type, nice shoes), then you shouldn't have any trouble meeting your requirements sans tie.
posted by thisjax at 6:37 PM on July 21, 2010 [8 favorites]
...dressing well makes me feel more comfortable, competent and confident
You don't need to wear a tie to be well-dressed. Your tie is not going to magically transform you into The Best Intern Ever. If the rest of your look is polished (shirts and pants cut to flatter your body type, nice shoes), then you shouldn't have any trouble meeting your requirements sans tie.
posted by thisjax at 6:37 PM on July 21, 2010 [8 favorites]
You'll be seen as the pompous, better-than-thou intern if you keep up with the tie. I'm sorry if that's not what you intend, but that's what will happen. You won't build camaraderie with the team if you treat them as beneath you.
I'm guessing you don't wear a tie going to class or buying groceries, but you still have confidence in those situations. Dressing well without a tie is possible. Over-dressing is as bad as under-dressing, and for business casual a tie is doing the former.
posted by mnemonic at 6:38 PM on July 21, 2010 [4 favorites]
I'm guessing you don't wear a tie going to class or buying groceries, but you still have confidence in those situations. Dressing well without a tie is possible. Over-dressing is as bad as under-dressing, and for business casual a tie is doing the former.
posted by mnemonic at 6:38 PM on July 21, 2010 [4 favorites]
Why I'm concerned about this is because I don't want to alienate anyone.
If you don't want to alienate anyone, the best thing to do is drop the tie. She was just trying to give you some friendly advice. You don't have to, certainly, but it's good to try and match the general dress of the office. It's not a personal slight and it's rather nice she was giving you the hint.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 6:38 PM on July 21, 2010 [2 favorites]
If you don't want to alienate anyone, the best thing to do is drop the tie. She was just trying to give you some friendly advice. You don't have to, certainly, but it's good to try and match the general dress of the office. It's not a personal slight and it's rather nice she was giving you the hint.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 6:38 PM on July 21, 2010 [2 favorites]
Drop the tie. You can all sorts of personal style without looking like a climber. No one likes a climber.
posted by MrMoonPie at 6:38 PM on July 21, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by MrMoonPie at 6:38 PM on July 21, 2010 [2 favorites]
Maybe one day you should show up wearing a tuxedo and bow tie. After that you can probably get away with wearing a tie the rest of the time.
posted by katypickle at 6:40 PM on July 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by katypickle at 6:40 PM on July 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
It really goes without saying that dress for the job you want means dress for the job you want within that organization. It doesn't mean that a pre-med student should show up for her bartending gig in surgical scrubs, right? Having an it's not against the rules so fuck off attitude is nuts in an internship situation. You have two goals with this internship - to get experience and to get references, and the first thing you need to learn if you don't want to be the Stereotypical IT Guy is that there's more to work than the actual work. Things like not being tone-deaf to office culture and not ignoring any advice that doesn't come in the form of a direct order really do matter in terms of the impression you make on your boss. Overdressing can make you look more like a rube than underdressing does. She isn't really worried that people will think you're her boss - she was telling you, in a friendly and jokey way, to lose the tie. Do or do not - but since one of your two objectives is to make her like you and want to help your career - why on earth wouldn't you thank her and do as she suggests?
posted by moxiedoll at 6:40 PM on July 21, 2010 [29 favorites]
posted by moxiedoll at 6:40 PM on July 21, 2010 [29 favorites]
This was your first day, so you have no idea of the politics both in the office or the people. Regarding the tie though, you should think about it. Will it be issue? If so, will it be a large issue that prevents you from learning on your internship? Is the woman who said "drop the tie" someone you have to work with everyday? Someone you have to report to? If so, it a tactical blending in might be good. If that idea bothers you, then consider: Is this the hill you want to fight and die on? It's just a tie, IMO, who cares?
But if you feel it's something that important to you, then by all means, rock the tie. Just be aware of the potential office politics cost and route yourself around the damage.
Final note: there's a lot ME ME ME ME in your post. That might not be the conductive attitude when working in a office, so food for thought.
posted by new brand day at 6:40 PM on July 21, 2010 [4 favorites]
But if you feel it's something that important to you, then by all means, rock the tie. Just be aware of the potential office politics cost and route yourself around the damage.
Final note: there's a lot ME ME ME ME in your post. That might not be the conductive attitude when working in a office, so food for thought.
posted by new brand day at 6:40 PM on July 21, 2010 [4 favorites]
As wars go, Tie Hill is not where I'd choose to make my stand.
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 6:41 PM on July 21, 2010 [50 favorites]
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 6:41 PM on July 21, 2010 [50 favorites]
1. paid money for it.
Bad reason. That's a sunk cost.
2. have my own personal sense of style, and dressing well makes me feel more comfortable, competent and confident.
Great reason.
3. shouldn't let other people control my actions, actions which aren't against the rule.
Questionable reason. Often people at your job do have some control over your actions. It's not just pure freedom-land where you can do whatever you want.
4. am not a jaded employee who's been there for years and am unhappy with my position. I'm new and determined to get what I want in life, and don't want to let someone else's lack of energy bring me down.
Overly dramatic reason.
5. It's an IT department, and for all of my working career I've struggled to combat the usual reputation of the "IT guy" who dresses in jeans and polos and has bad taste in clothes.
Good reason.
In conclusion, you have good reasons for wearing your tie, and no overwhelming reason not to. (It's not against the dress code; it's just that one random person thinks it's too much nicer than the minimum requirement.) So I'd wear it if you want.
People can be really weird in the workplace. People can try to exercise utterly silly power moves over you. It's sounds like she was doing one of those things. Don't let it get to you.
If anyone mentions it again, you can just say: "Oh, I know we don't have to wear a tie, but it's just my personal style."
You are allowed to have a distinctive personal style in an internship.
posted by Jaltcoh at 6:42 PM on July 21, 2010 [2 favorites]
Bad reason. That's a sunk cost.
2. have my own personal sense of style, and dressing well makes me feel more comfortable, competent and confident.
Great reason.
3. shouldn't let other people control my actions, actions which aren't against the rule.
Questionable reason. Often people at your job do have some control over your actions. It's not just pure freedom-land where you can do whatever you want.
4. am not a jaded employee who's been there for years and am unhappy with my position. I'm new and determined to get what I want in life, and don't want to let someone else's lack of energy bring me down.
Overly dramatic reason.
5. It's an IT department, and for all of my working career I've struggled to combat the usual reputation of the "IT guy" who dresses in jeans and polos and has bad taste in clothes.
Good reason.
In conclusion, you have good reasons for wearing your tie, and no overwhelming reason not to. (It's not against the dress code; it's just that one random person thinks it's too much nicer than the minimum requirement.) So I'd wear it if you want.
People can be really weird in the workplace. People can try to exercise utterly silly power moves over you. It's sounds like she was doing one of those things. Don't let it get to you.
If anyone mentions it again, you can just say: "Oh, I know we don't have to wear a tie, but it's just my personal style."
You are allowed to have a distinctive personal style in an internship.
posted by Jaltcoh at 6:42 PM on July 21, 2010 [2 favorites]
If you wear a tie and act cheerful & respectful to your coworkers, they will shrug it off and eventually may grow fond of it as one of your quirks.
If you wear a tie and act condescending to your coworkers, they will resent you. The tie becomes a symbol of your attitude of superiority.
Given that you referred to the other employees as "jaded" people who are "unhappy" and have a "lack of energy", and positioned yourself in an adversarial me-versus-them position where you "won't let them bring [you] down", it sounds like you may be closer to the second camp.
posted by cheesecake at 6:42 PM on July 21, 2010 [17 favorites]
If you wear a tie and act condescending to your coworkers, they will resent you. The tie becomes a symbol of your attitude of superiority.
Given that you referred to the other employees as "jaded" people who are "unhappy" and have a "lack of energy", and positioned yourself in an adversarial me-versus-them position where you "won't let them bring [you] down", it sounds like you may be closer to the second camp.
posted by cheesecake at 6:42 PM on July 21, 2010 [17 favorites]
Does wearing your tie (or anything else you wear, for that matter) violate the organization's dress code? No?
THEN WEAR THE FUCKING TIE TO YOUR HEART'S CONTENT.
Anyone who is telling you not to wear the tie is either: a) intimidated by your professional dress and demeanor; b) the office gossip who doesn't have enough to do; or, c) all of the above.
Seriously, with regards to your office's official dress code, where what ever makes you feel better about yourself and helps you get through the day. The people telling you not to wear one are probably those who have no influence on your internship anyway.
posted by doh ray mii at 6:44 PM on July 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
THEN WEAR THE FUCKING TIE TO YOUR HEART'S CONTENT.
Anyone who is telling you not to wear the tie is either: a) intimidated by your professional dress and demeanor; b) the office gossip who doesn't have enough to do; or, c) all of the above.
Seriously, with regards to your office's official dress code, where what ever makes you feel better about yourself and helps you get through the day. The people telling you not to wear one are probably those who have no influence on your internship anyway.
posted by doh ray mii at 6:44 PM on July 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
Dress like your boss. It sounds like this woman isn't your boss.
posted by Jacqueline at 6:45 PM on July 21, 2010
posted by Jacqueline at 6:45 PM on July 21, 2010
Wear, not where. Sometimes I really dislike auto-complete.
posted by doh ray mii at 6:46 PM on July 21, 2010
posted by doh ray mii at 6:46 PM on July 21, 2010
The official dress code is business casual. Ties are not part of business casual. Hence, it is against the rules. Read up about business casual attire to figure out how to feel confident and well-dressed while staying within the rules. Someday you'll be the boss and then you can dress however you want. Today is not that day.
posted by amethysts at 6:46 PM on July 21, 2010 [7 favorites]
posted by amethysts at 6:46 PM on July 21, 2010 [7 favorites]
If this woman is already talking about you behind your back, I'm guessing she doesn't have your best interests at heart. It probably just annoys and threatens her to see a new person putting their best foot forward to make a good impression.
Back when I was young and working in a restaurant, I had one coworker get really snide with me because I always did a very thorough job of sweeping and mopping the kitchen floor. It pissed her off because she always did a half-assed job and she didn't want me showing her up. She actually said "don't do such a good job or they'll make everybody do it like that."
Some lazy-ass people are really invested in making sure nobody raises the bar because they're afraid they'll have to work harder to maintain their status.
Whether you should keep wearing the tie depends on how much status this woman has. If she's a queen bee who can turn everybody against you if she doesn't like you, you might find it more expedient to lose the tie and try to fit in. But if she's just the bitchy office busybody that nobody really takes seriously, then don't worry about it and wear what you want.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 6:49 PM on July 21, 2010 [2 favorites]
Back when I was young and working in a restaurant, I had one coworker get really snide with me because I always did a very thorough job of sweeping and mopping the kitchen floor. It pissed her off because she always did a half-assed job and she didn't want me showing her up. She actually said "don't do such a good job or they'll make everybody do it like that."
Some lazy-ass people are really invested in making sure nobody raises the bar because they're afraid they'll have to work harder to maintain their status.
Whether you should keep wearing the tie depends on how much status this woman has. If she's a queen bee who can turn everybody against you if she doesn't like you, you might find it more expedient to lose the tie and try to fit in. But if she's just the bitchy office busybody that nobody really takes seriously, then don't worry about it and wear what you want.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 6:49 PM on July 21, 2010 [2 favorites]
It's an internship and she's trying to teach you something. Your reaction is what's known as "looking a gift horse in the mouth."
However, if your personal style truly has to be fully integrated into your daily life then you're going to have to accept any effects resulting from your principled stand. If it makes any difference, it doesn't make you any less of a man or "FunKeE sTyLeZ 20o0 [(wutup)]" or anything if you stop wearing the tie.
posted by rhizome at 6:49 PM on July 21, 2010
However, if your personal style truly has to be fully integrated into your daily life then you're going to have to accept any effects resulting from your principled stand. If it makes any difference, it doesn't make you any less of a man or "FunKeE sTyLeZ 20o0 [(wutup)]" or anything if you stop wearing the tie.
posted by rhizome at 6:49 PM on July 21, 2010
Wear what makes you look good. Remember, you only look at yourself once or twice a day, but everyone else has to look at you all the time. In the immortal words of Joe Jackson, "Look Sharp!"
Seriously, rock the tie. What the hell would the people above be saying to you if you were a winsome young woman wanting to wear a miniskirt and facing friendly "opposition?"
Yeah...I thought so.
posted by digitalprimate at 6:49 PM on July 21, 2010
Seriously, rock the tie. What the hell would the people above be saying to you if you were a winsome young woman wanting to wear a miniskirt and facing friendly "opposition?"
Yeah...I thought so.
posted by digitalprimate at 6:49 PM on July 21, 2010
During these 3 seconds I am absolutely positive that heads were nodded in my direction and eyebrows raised.
The tie is making you question yourself and your standards of taste. The tie is making you think people are talking about and nodding at you. You're going to go through this internship feeling self-conscious every day because someone told you to drop the tie and you're not sure whether to make a stand or not. Whether people are talking about the tie rather than talking about your awesome work.
Also, if you don't want to be jeans-and-polo IT guy, you need to develop a general sense of style and taste. Most of that "general taste" involves compromising certain aspects of your dress based on cultural contexts and still looking good.
posted by griphus at 6:51 PM on July 21, 2010 [4 favorites]
The tie is making you question yourself and your standards of taste. The tie is making you think people are talking about and nodding at you. You're going to go through this internship feeling self-conscious every day because someone told you to drop the tie and you're not sure whether to make a stand or not. Whether people are talking about the tie rather than talking about your awesome work.
Also, if you don't want to be jeans-and-polo IT guy, you need to develop a general sense of style and taste. Most of that "general taste" involves compromising certain aspects of your dress based on cultural contexts and still looking good.
posted by griphus at 6:51 PM on July 21, 2010 [4 favorites]
Actually I'll retract my first paragraph there. Misread.
posted by rhizome at 6:52 PM on July 21, 2010
posted by rhizome at 6:52 PM on July 21, 2010
digitalprimate: "What the hell would the people above be saying to you if you were a winsome young woman wanting to wear a miniskirt and facing friendly "opposition?"""
I currently have a bunch of teenage interns. We send them home all the time for dress-code violations, including miniskirts.
posted by griphus at 6:53 PM on July 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
I currently have a bunch of teenage interns. We send them home all the time for dress-code violations, including miniskirts.
posted by griphus at 6:53 PM on July 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
I currently have a bunch of teenage interns. We send them home all the time for dress-code violations, including miniskirts.
Bring that weak sauce to an HR department in Midtown...you'll be looking up "hostile workplace" faster than I can put on a BB Madison.
I kid, I kid. But seriously, being an intern, being at that age, is all about developing a personal style, and part of developing a personal style is dealing with misunderstanding and opposition with grace and a certain degree of cunning. And - more importantly and especially in IT - one has to differentiate if you want to get noticed, without which, there is no moving up, and no BB Madison.
posted by digitalprimate at 6:57 PM on July 21, 2010
Bring that weak sauce to an HR department in Midtown...you'll be looking up "hostile workplace" faster than I can put on a BB Madison.
I kid, I kid. But seriously, being an intern, being at that age, is all about developing a personal style, and part of developing a personal style is dealing with misunderstanding and opposition with grace and a certain degree of cunning. And - more importantly and especially in IT - one has to differentiate if you want to get noticed, without which, there is no moving up, and no BB Madison.
posted by digitalprimate at 6:57 PM on July 21, 2010
If this woman is already talking about you behind your back, I'm guessing she doesn't have your best interests at heart.
This really encapsulates one of the OP's concerns and I think it's really paranoid. First off - everyone is talking about you behind your back. Because you're the new guy, and offices are boring! How's anonymous working out / oh right, our summer anonymous started this week / and etc. are small talk that is happening, but isn't malicious. And honestly, it's infinitely more likely that the look and nod was hey friend, stop talking about that private issue in front of that stranger or hey friend, stop telling me that sexy story about your weekend so we don't create a legally actionable hostile environment for that new guy then that they were really bothered about your tie.
posted by moxiedoll at 6:59 PM on July 21, 2010 [5 favorites]
This really encapsulates one of the OP's concerns and I think it's really paranoid. First off - everyone is talking about you behind your back. Because you're the new guy, and offices are boring! How's anonymous working out / oh right, our summer anonymous started this week / and etc. are small talk that is happening, but isn't malicious. And honestly, it's infinitely more likely that the look and nod was hey friend, stop talking about that private issue in front of that stranger or hey friend, stop telling me that sexy story about your weekend so we don't create a legally actionable hostile environment for that new guy then that they were really bothered about your tie.
posted by moxiedoll at 6:59 PM on July 21, 2010 [5 favorites]
Just a suggestion: maybe a bow-tie would be a bit more 'casual' in this situation.
posted by makethemost at 7:02 PM on July 21, 2010
posted by makethemost at 7:02 PM on July 21, 2010
IT guy? Intern? Wearing a tie?
Everything about this screams "I am a tool". You don't want to be brought down by people that have lost their energy? Oh puh-leeze. You can dress nicely without wearing a tie. Ditch it. A tie is definitely not in my definition of business casual.
Also, you paid good money for it? As in, you have one tie, and you're wearing it every day? If that is really the case, you are probably not rocking it as well as you think you are.
I work with a lot of clueless people (and bad dressers) in IT. I am in IT. If I took the effort to tell you, an intern or new hire, "don't be that guy", and you kept being that guy, I doubt you would be fired for it. But you would be the butt of jokes and not taken as seriously as you might wish to be. An intern in a tie is a joke.
posted by ch1x0r at 7:05 PM on July 21, 2010 [10 favorites]
Everything about this screams "I am a tool". You don't want to be brought down by people that have lost their energy? Oh puh-leeze. You can dress nicely without wearing a tie. Ditch it. A tie is definitely not in my definition of business casual.
Also, you paid good money for it? As in, you have one tie, and you're wearing it every day? If that is really the case, you are probably not rocking it as well as you think you are.
I work with a lot of clueless people (and bad dressers) in IT. I am in IT. If I took the effort to tell you, an intern or new hire, "don't be that guy", and you kept being that guy, I doubt you would be fired for it. But you would be the butt of jokes and not taken as seriously as you might wish to be. An intern in a tie is a joke.
posted by ch1x0r at 7:05 PM on July 21, 2010 [10 favorites]
If you want to burn some bridges, start wearing a series of increasingly geeky ties, culminating in a full on Star Wars (Episode I) tie.
posted by benzenedream at 7:05 PM on July 21, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by benzenedream at 7:05 PM on July 21, 2010 [2 favorites]
IMO, you can still dress better than 99.9% of IT office workers without wearing a tie. Get your shirts and pants tailored. Wear nice shoes.
Depending on what kind of IT work you're doing I think a tie actually gets in the way quite a bit.
Also, as you said, the dress code is business casual. Sure you can overdress every day if you want but you aren't following the dress code.
posted by zephyr_words at 7:10 PM on July 21, 2010
Depending on what kind of IT work you're doing I think a tie actually gets in the way quite a bit.
Also, as you said, the dress code is business casual. Sure you can overdress every day if you want but you aren't following the dress code.
posted by zephyr_words at 7:10 PM on July 21, 2010
Given that you referred to the other employees as "jaded" people who are "unhappy" and have a "lack of energy", and positioned yourself in an adversarial me-versus-them position where you "won't let them bring [you] down", it sounds like you may be closer to the second camp.
Um, except he didn't do this.
posted by Jaltcoh at 7:13 PM on July 21, 2010
Um, except he didn't do this.
posted by Jaltcoh at 7:13 PM on July 21, 2010
As wars go, Tie Hill is not where I'd choose to make my stand.
Ditto. I hate office politics, but the people who have been there a long time likely have more influence and know how to bend the ear of the boss. I'm sure you can continue to reject advice and forge your own path, but if you aren't careful you'll offend your co-workers and they won't support you when you need it. You might be able to balance this by being extra friendly or taking on little errands to help people out, but if you're reluctant to go that route it might be easier to not make waves and just forget the tie.
If all else fails, however, simple bribery works very well in greasing the wheels. You can come in dressed in a clown suit half the time as long as you occasinoally bring free donuts/candy/whatever.
posted by Menthol at 7:17 PM on July 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
Ditto. I hate office politics, but the people who have been there a long time likely have more influence and know how to bend the ear of the boss. I'm sure you can continue to reject advice and forge your own path, but if you aren't careful you'll offend your co-workers and they won't support you when you need it. You might be able to balance this by being extra friendly or taking on little errands to help people out, but if you're reluctant to go that route it might be easier to not make waves and just forget the tie.
If all else fails, however, simple bribery works very well in greasing the wheels. You can come in dressed in a clown suit half the time as long as you occasinoally bring free donuts/candy/whatever.
posted by Menthol at 7:17 PM on July 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
nth-ing everyone who says there are many ways to look better than wearing a tie. make sure you come in with well-ironed clothes every day, and get clothes that fit well and are co-ordinated.
posted by Jon_Evil at 7:20 PM on July 21, 2010
posted by Jon_Evil at 7:20 PM on July 21, 2010
Putting myself in that woman's shoes -- you are now the punk kid who didn't follow the one instruction she gave you. Even if everyone else thinks you're awesome, you've made an enemy. Are you absolutely certain you wish to do this?
(A hint -- the answer here is "No.")
posted by Etrigan at 7:21 PM on July 21, 2010 [2 favorites]
(A hint -- the answer here is "No.")
posted by Etrigan at 7:21 PM on July 21, 2010 [2 favorites]
1. paid money for it.
2. have my own personal sense of style, and dressing well makes me feel more comfortable, competent and confident.
Not quite an answer, and I may be misunderstanding, but... you made it sound like you have a tie. To many, wearing a tie isn't dressing well, wearing the right tie is dressing well, and if you're wearing the same tie rather than the right tie, that's a personal style but it's not as far as it sounds like you'd prefer from "the usual reputation of the "IT guy" who dresses in jeans and polos and has bad taste in clothes".
An compromise might also be to perhaps wear it some days, and not others. And have some awesome witty explanations for when someone asks "why (a/no) tie today?" :-)
"Today is a roll-up-your-sleeves-and-get-stuff-done! kind of day"
"Today is a button-down-and-get-stuff-done! kind of day"
Or, y'know, something better :-)
posted by -harlequin- at 7:21 PM on July 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
2. have my own personal sense of style, and dressing well makes me feel more comfortable, competent and confident.
Not quite an answer, and I may be misunderstanding, but... you made it sound like you have a tie. To many, wearing a tie isn't dressing well, wearing the right tie is dressing well, and if you're wearing the same tie rather than the right tie, that's a personal style but it's not as far as it sounds like you'd prefer from "the usual reputation of the "IT guy" who dresses in jeans and polos and has bad taste in clothes".
An compromise might also be to perhaps wear it some days, and not others. And have some awesome witty explanations for when someone asks "why (a/no) tie today?" :-)
"Today is a roll-up-your-sleeves-and-get-stuff-done! kind of day"
"Today is a button-down-and-get-stuff-done! kind of day"
Or, y'know, something better :-)
posted by -harlequin- at 7:21 PM on July 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
Never outshine the master
This may or may not be this situation.
There are a couple of people who dress well in my office. The people who tend to gain the most out of it, tend to dress really nicely, but not excessively so - these are people who seem to fit into their clothes naturally. You can tell those who are trying too hard. As you say: it is your own personal style: if it works effortlessly, do it.
When the head of the department came in, and they mentioned what they told me, he laughed and said not to let them give me a hard time.
It sounds like they are making polite fun of you. Were they smiling when they mentioned the tie?
posted by niccolo at 7:24 PM on July 21, 2010
This may or may not be this situation.
There are a couple of people who dress well in my office. The people who tend to gain the most out of it, tend to dress really nicely, but not excessively so - these are people who seem to fit into their clothes naturally. You can tell those who are trying too hard. As you say: it is your own personal style: if it works effortlessly, do it.
When the head of the department came in, and they mentioned what they told me, he laughed and said not to let them give me a hard time.
It sounds like they are making polite fun of you. Were they smiling when they mentioned the tie?
posted by niccolo at 7:24 PM on July 21, 2010
I'm an intern (a law student one, not a college student one, so a few years older and less green, you might say). I wore a suit the first day of my internship because they tell you to do these sorts of things in law school (they also say to dress like your coworkers dress once you figure out the dress of the office). Nobody else was wearing a suit. Nobody told me not to wear a suit, but I certainly stopped, since, you know, as an intern, you don't want to stick out like a big, uptight thumb. If you were a permanent employee, I'd say do what you want. But you're not. You're the intern. Be cool about this. You want to be known as hardworking, smart intern guy, not "the tie guy."
posted by elpea at 7:29 PM on July 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by elpea at 7:29 PM on July 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
Also, not to harp or be totally nasty to you, but I just had a conversation with my partner about this issue. He does think that business casual can include a tie, but says it is a catch-22: It can be tie with no jacket, or jacket with no tie, but not jacket and tie. And tie with no jacket ALWAYS looks dorky. ALWAYS. If you want to look sharp, wear a nice jacket and no tie. That is sharp, and yet manages to not look as if you are trying to show people up. A tie with no jacket is dorky dork dork dork dork. I love dorks, I am a dork, but dork please.
posted by ch1x0r at 7:30 PM on July 21, 2010 [16 favorites]
posted by ch1x0r at 7:30 PM on July 21, 2010 [16 favorites]
I'm with Theloupgarou and saying put on a jacket. I'm one of those people who prefer (shirt + jacket - tie) to (shirt + tie - jacket) because one says "I know what I'm doing" and the other says "I'll be your server this evening".
I'm with thisjax and saying you don't need to wear a tie to be well-dressed. It's about fit, and it's about fitting in. You can wear the exact same uniform as everyone else in your unit, and you can wear it well, or you can wear it badly.
I suggest you read Put This On and figure out what you like.
I wish you the best.
posted by ymendel at 7:31 PM on July 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
I'm with thisjax and saying you don't need to wear a tie to be well-dressed. It's about fit, and it's about fitting in. You can wear the exact same uniform as everyone else in your unit, and you can wear it well, or you can wear it badly.
I suggest you read Put This On and figure out what you like.
I wish you the best.
posted by ymendel at 7:31 PM on July 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
I don't know how it works at other jobs, but when we have an opening, we usually have several qualified candidates, so "do we want to work with this person" tends to be a significant factor. If you want to get a job at this place someday you might want to keep that in mind.
And interns are a dime a dozen. Three months after you leave and you're looking for a recommendation, do you want them to remember you as "the intern who did a good job and got along with us" or "the guy with the tie." Because it can be hard to remember all the interns who've come through a place sometimes, and you don't want to be primarily remembered for some weird quirk or kinda inappropriate reaction to the office culture. (Like at my office we have "the intern who wanted to nap in the library" and "the intern who talked about herself" and "the intern who had a ridiculously dramatic breakup that we all experienced vicariously." If the tie is a problem for more than just this one woman, you'll be remembered for that and not your work.)
posted by Mavri at 7:36 PM on July 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
And interns are a dime a dozen. Three months after you leave and you're looking for a recommendation, do you want them to remember you as "the intern who did a good job and got along with us" or "the guy with the tie." Because it can be hard to remember all the interns who've come through a place sometimes, and you don't want to be primarily remembered for some weird quirk or kinda inappropriate reaction to the office culture. (Like at my office we have "the intern who wanted to nap in the library" and "the intern who talked about herself" and "the intern who had a ridiculously dramatic breakup that we all experienced vicariously." If the tie is a problem for more than just this one woman, you'll be remembered for that and not your work.)
posted by Mavri at 7:36 PM on July 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
if one of the college interns at our office (uniform = jeans) wore a tie to work everyone would think it was cute, like a kid desperate to appear professional who figured they could only do that with the correct clothes on.
Oh man this times 1000. I just graduated college, and I REFUSE to wear a tie, as a matter of fact I'll throw an internal hissy fit every time I so much as have to wear khakis (for the record, I found a job - and at the interview I wore a suit but NO TIE GODDAMNIT). I'm 23, I feel like baby playing grown up, like I'm desperate to look really important. It's 2010, and dressing super professional is dated - used to be to impress clients and whatnot but these days most clients could not give less a shit as long as your doing the best work for them (unless they're dinosaurs themselves). Also if you're actually good at your job and have a professional attitude no one will ever give a shit what you wear.
Sounds like you work at a lax company. Take advantage of this. Unless it's an interview, overdressed people look awkward and naive.
posted by windbox at 7:39 PM on July 21, 2010
Oh man this times 1000. I just graduated college, and I REFUSE to wear a tie, as a matter of fact I'll throw an internal hissy fit every time I so much as have to wear khakis (for the record, I found a job - and at the interview I wore a suit but NO TIE GODDAMNIT). I'm 23, I feel like baby playing grown up, like I'm desperate to look really important. It's 2010, and dressing super professional is dated - used to be to impress clients and whatnot but these days most clients could not give less a shit as long as your doing the best work for them (unless they're dinosaurs themselves). Also if you're actually good at your job and have a professional attitude no one will ever give a shit what you wear.
Sounds like you work at a lax company. Take advantage of this. Unless it's an interview, overdressed people look awkward and naive.
posted by windbox at 7:39 PM on July 21, 2010
DISCLAIMER: I have spent most of my professional career outside typical medium to large business office environments, and have not had to deal with much of this sort of office politics weirdness.
That being said - for an internship where I was trying to learn the ropes and hopefully make some good future contacts, I'd drop the tie if gently encouraged to do so. (But maybe get a blazer and wear that instead, if you were feeling a little bit cheeky.)
For a full time job, though, I'd say wear the tie for all it's worth. If wearing a tie is all it takes to make your coworkers feel like they're being shown up, you'll probably be up and out of that department before long anyway.
But overall, what niccolo said: Whatever your style, it's about finding the zone where you seem to fit into your clothes naturally, without looking like you're trying too hard. Also, I may as well regurgitate myself from this somewhat related thread about the appropriateness of bow ties: being able to pull off a once-common-but-now-anachronistic garment (which apparently includes regular old neckties these days) is about 90% confidence and 10% fashion sense, pure and simple.
posted by usonian at 7:52 PM on July 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
That being said - for an internship where I was trying to learn the ropes and hopefully make some good future contacts, I'd drop the tie if gently encouraged to do so. (But maybe get a blazer and wear that instead, if you were feeling a little bit cheeky.)
For a full time job, though, I'd say wear the tie for all it's worth. If wearing a tie is all it takes to make your coworkers feel like they're being shown up, you'll probably be up and out of that department before long anyway.
But overall, what niccolo said: Whatever your style, it's about finding the zone where you seem to fit into your clothes naturally, without looking like you're trying too hard. Also, I may as well regurgitate myself from this somewhat related thread about the appropriateness of bow ties: being able to pull off a once-common-but-now-anachronistic garment (which apparently includes regular old neckties these days) is about 90% confidence and 10% fashion sense, pure and simple.
posted by usonian at 7:52 PM on July 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
If this woman is already talking about you behind your back, I'm guessing she doesn't have your best interests at heart. It probably just annoys and threatens her to see a new person putting their best foot forward to make a good impression.
Of course, it's also entirely possible that the "talking behind your back" you noticed wasn't about your tie. For companies that get a fresh crop of interns every summer, this particular event becomes a part of office gossip just like anything else. They could have been talking about how you're cute, seem eager and talented, are a naive greenhorn who's about to get the education of your life, or really anything anybody would say when they meet a new person in a situation like that.
It's also possible that they weren't talking about you, at all, and you simply walked in when other office gossip was happening that you aren't a party to. Not everything is about you all the time.
posted by Sara C. at 7:52 PM on July 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
Of course, it's also entirely possible that the "talking behind your back" you noticed wasn't about your tie. For companies that get a fresh crop of interns every summer, this particular event becomes a part of office gossip just like anything else. They could have been talking about how you're cute, seem eager and talented, are a naive greenhorn who's about to get the education of your life, or really anything anybody would say when they meet a new person in a situation like that.
It's also possible that they weren't talking about you, at all, and you simply walked in when other office gossip was happening that you aren't a party to. Not everything is about you all the time.
posted by Sara C. at 7:52 PM on July 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
If I worked in an office with a dress code on the casual side and someone started wearing ties every day, I'd be concerned. I wouldn't worry about their outperforming me, because ties don't indicate shit about anyone's potential. I'd worry a little bit about their possibly being stuffy, formal, condescending, or otherwise difficult to work with. Ties can come across as kind of rigid, letter-of-the-law, "that's Mr. Smith to you."
But even more than that, I'd worry that management might be inspired to follow the new guy's lead and decide to enforce a more stringent dress code. You might enjoy dressing up in work clothes, which is a pretty good asset, but a lot of people don't, and the people in your office might view their relaxed dress code as an enormous perk. Who knows, they might have had to fight for it.
That's just me, though, and I don't work in your office. Anyway, dress codes of all levels tend to be eighty percent "oh, pretty much what everyone else is wearing, you'll figure it out, you've got common sense," and you adjust within the first week or two anyway. Keeping the tie in the long run might be seen as a symbol - or symptom - of your overall reluctance to roll with the office culture.
Also, there are plenty of ways to dress well that don't involve a tie, and a tie doesn't necessarily mean you're well-dressed.
posted by Metroid Baby at 7:53 PM on July 21, 2010 [2 favorites]
But even more than that, I'd worry that management might be inspired to follow the new guy's lead and decide to enforce a more stringent dress code. You might enjoy dressing up in work clothes, which is a pretty good asset, but a lot of people don't, and the people in your office might view their relaxed dress code as an enormous perk. Who knows, they might have had to fight for it.
That's just me, though, and I don't work in your office. Anyway, dress codes of all levels tend to be eighty percent "oh, pretty much what everyone else is wearing, you'll figure it out, you've got common sense," and you adjust within the first week or two anyway. Keeping the tie in the long run might be seen as a symbol - or symptom - of your overall reluctance to roll with the office culture.
Also, there are plenty of ways to dress well that don't involve a tie, and a tie doesn't necessarily mean you're well-dressed.
posted by Metroid Baby at 7:53 PM on July 21, 2010 [2 favorites]
I have to agree with ch1x0r here. An intern (IT guy intern what's more) in a tie is a joke. There are plenty of ways of dressing well without wearing a tie - and wearing a bow tie is not one of them; you'll be "bow tie guy" instead of "tie guy". Instead, I'd concentrate more on the fit and quality of your clothing. And your shoes.
Wearing a tie doesn't automatically make you well-dressed. Tie without jacket can easily look dorky. Examples that readily come to mind are 1) white shirt + dark tie = missionary, 2) blue shirt + shiny golden tie = engineering student at job interview. Don't let either be you!
I know it sucks to stop wearing your tie just because some busybody told you to, but an internship is probably not the right time to make a point about it. Think of it less as "showing up everyone in the office" and more as "not looking like a dorky kid."
Generally the only people who get a free pass at being quirky at work are either a) senior (think MD level) or b) hella good at what they do. The former isn't happening anytime soon so if you keep the tie, you'd better develop a legendary reputation fast. You want to be remembered as that IT wunderkind in the tie rather than the dork who insisted on dressing like a missionary all the time.
posted by pravit at 7:54 PM on July 21, 2010
Wearing a tie doesn't automatically make you well-dressed. Tie without jacket can easily look dorky. Examples that readily come to mind are 1) white shirt + dark tie = missionary, 2) blue shirt + shiny golden tie = engineering student at job interview. Don't let either be you!
I know it sucks to stop wearing your tie just because some busybody told you to, but an internship is probably not the right time to make a point about it. Think of it less as "showing up everyone in the office" and more as "not looking like a dorky kid."
Generally the only people who get a free pass at being quirky at work are either a) senior (think MD level) or b) hella good at what they do. The former isn't happening anytime soon so if you keep the tie, you'd better develop a legendary reputation fast. You want to be remembered as that IT wunderkind in the tie rather than the dork who insisted on dressing like a missionary all the time.
posted by pravit at 7:54 PM on July 21, 2010
Mod note: From the OP:
Thanks for the observations about how I might have come across in my question and in the workplace.posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:55 PM on July 21, 2010
I can clarify that in my interactions I've always been very friendly, and have already started getting along with 3 of the 8 people who work in the office, with absolutely no problems. We've talked about work, studies, career goals, and our respective backgrounds. I've never had an attitude towards them, and even during both conversations about the tie I smiled right through it and never gave any hint to my thoughts.
I'm very friendly, well spoken and always remember my manners, and will continue to do so.
The person who told to drop it, I see someone said I was overly dramatic, but I don't think I was. I've worked at about 4 different places in full time positions before (this is an internship because I'm in a new country and some other reasons), and in almost every workplace there's the person who's been there for years, has seen people come and go, don't like their job, but is hanging on for a fear or change and/or their pension. She is one of them.
Many of the guys in the department across the corridor (it's the same organization) wear ties. Also, the head of the department wears a tie every day, and said that I should continue to wear it if I want to.
Finally, I'm usually happy for all responses for a question, whether they agree with me or not, but seriously this is full of shit.
What precludes me from wearing a tie? Because I work in IT? Because I'm an intern?
And who ever said I had one tie? Since when does being an intern means I'm poor and can only afford a single tie?
If you must know I have about 7 ties - FCUK, Ralph Lauren and CK; a Kenneth Cole black shoes and a Salvatore Ferragamo brown shoes. What part of that says I'm a tool? And what makes me clueless?
I'm there not because of how I dress, I'm there because I was the best of 7 people, thanks.
OP, I am totally down with doing your own thing. I am an attorney (but not your attorney, and this is not sartorial advice), and I come to work in a straw hat, dark sunglasses, and Chuck Taylors THAT I MATCH TO MY SHIRT. Sometimes I keep the Chucks on for a while in the morning because I want to, and people sometimes give me a little look. Of course, I keep delightfully expensive shoes at the office to change into once I get around to it. I tend to think I dress, on average, with a quite a bit more style (or, at least, more effort) overall than many of my colleagues.
But you gots to know your limits. I've been at my current job for working on three years. I dressed conservatively for the first two. I'm a known commodity. I would not walk into a new job in my Chucks, as fun as they are.
If someone is telling you to tone it down, tone it down--but you can do that with style, too--wear your tie, a nice short sleeved button-down shirt, some nice jeans, and say, oh, colorful Chucks. That is, keep the tie, but tone down everything else. I think bow ties are a boring affectation, personally, but maybe short sleeves and a bow tie. Find a way to keep that up until it isn't a thing anymore. Then, maybe ramp it back to your full ensemble.
Good luck--just keep in mind that this is not the economy in which to rock the boat (as soul crushing as that may be).
posted by Admiral Haddock at 7:57 PM on July 21, 2010
But you gots to know your limits. I've been at my current job for working on three years. I dressed conservatively for the first two. I'm a known commodity. I would not walk into a new job in my Chucks, as fun as they are.
If someone is telling you to tone it down, tone it down--but you can do that with style, too--wear your tie, a nice short sleeved button-down shirt, some nice jeans, and say, oh, colorful Chucks. That is, keep the tie, but tone down everything else. I think bow ties are a boring affectation, personally, but maybe short sleeves and a bow tie. Find a way to keep that up until it isn't a thing anymore. Then, maybe ramp it back to your full ensemble.
Good luck--just keep in mind that this is not the economy in which to rock the boat (as soul crushing as that may be).
posted by Admiral Haddock at 7:57 PM on July 21, 2010
My generation worked hard to get the tie dropped. You're disrespecting the sacrifices we took - the scowls, the missed promotions, the write-ups for insubordination - so that we could be comfortable at work, so we could be equal at work.
Wearing a tie in a business casual office usually means you're nipping out for an interview in the afternoon, so it can place you on the disposable list. You will be judged on the quality of your work, not how you look.
posted by scruss at 7:57 PM on July 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
Wearing a tie in a business casual office usually means you're nipping out for an interview in the afternoon, so it can place you on the disposable list. You will be judged on the quality of your work, not how you look.
posted by scruss at 7:57 PM on July 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
Bow ties are cool.
posted by elsietheeel at 8:00 PM on July 21, 2010 [11 favorites]
posted by elsietheeel at 8:00 PM on July 21, 2010 [11 favorites]
this is an internship because I'm in a new country
Another great reason you should follow your coworker's advice. Standards of dress are different in different places, and it's hard to know exactly what messages you're sending out via sartorial choices in a new culture.
Your coworkers probably see you as someone they should take under their wing, both professionally and also to help you get acclimated to a new place. You should take their advice in good faith and not assume that they're threatened by you or trying to cut you down in some way.
Also, don't worry about what people in some other department are doing. They probably have a different culture and different needs because their work is different from yours. Not to mention that you don't work in that department across the hall, you work in this department, right here. These are the people you have to fit in with.
Finally, I'm usually happy for all responses for a question, whether they agree with me or not, but seriously this is full of shit.
I have a sneaking suspicion you are someone who doesn't take well-meaning advice very well. More well meaning advice: drop the 'tude, dude.
posted by Sara C. at 8:09 PM on July 21, 2010 [14 favorites]
Another great reason you should follow your coworker's advice. Standards of dress are different in different places, and it's hard to know exactly what messages you're sending out via sartorial choices in a new culture.
Your coworkers probably see you as someone they should take under their wing, both professionally and also to help you get acclimated to a new place. You should take their advice in good faith and not assume that they're threatened by you or trying to cut you down in some way.
Also, don't worry about what people in some other department are doing. They probably have a different culture and different needs because their work is different from yours. Not to mention that you don't work in that department across the hall, you work in this department, right here. These are the people you have to fit in with.
Finally, I'm usually happy for all responses for a question, whether they agree with me or not, but seriously this is full of shit.
I have a sneaking suspicion you are someone who doesn't take well-meaning advice very well. More well meaning advice: drop the 'tude, dude.
posted by Sara C. at 8:09 PM on July 21, 2010 [14 favorites]
there are lots of great ways to wear a tie where you don't look like a waiter. think about wearing a cardigan, a sweater vest or rolling up the sleeves on your dress shirt. In fact, sometimes wear a non-"dress" style shirt like a chambray or a buffalo plaid with a simple skinny vintage tie. basically, don't wear a tie without something that doesn't cover it up, like a sweater or jacket (doesn't have to be a sport coat)
choose non-"dress" pants like a pair of nice dark selvage denim or a more relaxed pair of slim fit style khakis. pick comfortable shoes that go with your style, and are no-nonsense.
i tend to wear a lot of military influenced gear in my office when i wear ties. slim fit khakis or denim, desert style boots, dress shirts or plaid with skinny ties. sometimes sports coats, but mostly just clothes that fit me well, make me feel good, and don't make me look like a salesman making a cold call/waiter/doofus. begin to check out lots of different style blogs and find out what sort of style you are drawn to and what looks good on you. then, look at your current clothes and figure out how you can use them to create the looks you want to. find stuff second hand/on sale/at goodwill etc. you can make this happen!
start here:
Valet Mag
TheSartorialist
AContinuousLean
AllPlaidOut
and for simple visual inspiration, scissors
posted by Bohemia Mountain at 8:11 PM on July 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
choose non-"dress" pants like a pair of nice dark selvage denim or a more relaxed pair of slim fit style khakis. pick comfortable shoes that go with your style, and are no-nonsense.
i tend to wear a lot of military influenced gear in my office when i wear ties. slim fit khakis or denim, desert style boots, dress shirts or plaid with skinny ties. sometimes sports coats, but mostly just clothes that fit me well, make me feel good, and don't make me look like a salesman making a cold call/waiter/doofus. begin to check out lots of different style blogs and find out what sort of style you are drawn to and what looks good on you. then, look at your current clothes and figure out how you can use them to create the looks you want to. find stuff second hand/on sale/at goodwill etc. you can make this happen!
start here:
Valet Mag
TheSartorialist
AContinuousLean
AllPlaidOut
and for simple visual inspiration, scissors
posted by Bohemia Mountain at 8:11 PM on July 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
What precludes me from wearing a tie?
You work in an office with a particular culture: in that culture, business casual is the norm and people who wear more formal clothes are viewed with suspicion ("What, you think you're better than us?"). This is very similar to the attitude you would get in a more formal office setting if you showed up to work wearing overly casual clothes ("What, you think the rules don't apply to you?"). In each case, you can dress in a way that technically adheres to the rules but which is different enough from your colleagues' wardrobes that you set yourself apart in a negative way.
Of course you can choose to wear a tie. However, by doing so you may alienate your colleagues, something you say you'd prefer not to do.
posted by Meg_Murry at 8:13 PM on July 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
You work in an office with a particular culture: in that culture, business casual is the norm and people who wear more formal clothes are viewed with suspicion ("What, you think you're better than us?"). This is very similar to the attitude you would get in a more formal office setting if you showed up to work wearing overly casual clothes ("What, you think the rules don't apply to you?"). In each case, you can dress in a way that technically adheres to the rules but which is different enough from your colleagues' wardrobes that you set yourself apart in a negative way.
Of course you can choose to wear a tie. However, by doing so you may alienate your colleagues, something you say you'd prefer not to do.
posted by Meg_Murry at 8:13 PM on July 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
If I worked in an office with a dress code on the casual side and someone started wearing ties every day, I'd be concerned. I wouldn't worry about their outperforming me, because ties don't indicate shit about anyone's potential. I'd worry a little bit about their possibly being stuffy, formal, condescending, or otherwise difficult to work with. Ties can come across as kind of rigid, letter-of-the-law, "that's Mr. Smith to you."
Yes, this. I work in a very casual office, where even the higher-ups dress in casual clothes, and typically quite fashionably. However, there's a small subset of people that have come in over the years -- and, to be frank, gone back out again -- who didn't wear ties, or fashionable casual clothes. What they wore was a tucked blue long-sleeve button-down and beige khakis, the uniform of the Silicon Valley engineer.
In our experience here, so many of the people who dressed like that every day turned out to be over-educated in one discipline, and strikingly inflexible about learning new technologies, and/or insisted on applying the methodologies from their core technology onto new technologies that were wholly inappropriate. Enough of those people got canned for being difficult to work with, abrasive and argumentative about such things that (in my office) a red flag goes up when we see the tucked blue shirt/beige khaki combo on a new guy (or girl, oddly.)
posted by davejay at 8:13 PM on July 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
Yes, this. I work in a very casual office, where even the higher-ups dress in casual clothes, and typically quite fashionably. However, there's a small subset of people that have come in over the years -- and, to be frank, gone back out again -- who didn't wear ties, or fashionable casual clothes. What they wore was a tucked blue long-sleeve button-down and beige khakis, the uniform of the Silicon Valley engineer.
In our experience here, so many of the people who dressed like that every day turned out to be over-educated in one discipline, and strikingly inflexible about learning new technologies, and/or insisted on applying the methodologies from their core technology onto new technologies that were wholly inappropriate. Enough of those people got canned for being difficult to work with, abrasive and argumentative about such things that (in my office) a red flag goes up when we see the tucked blue shirt/beige khaki combo on a new guy (or girl, oddly.)
posted by davejay at 8:13 PM on July 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
Though I have to admit, this guy on the Sartorialist (who is far cooler than you or I, OP), rocks the bowtie so hard that I can hear it weeping.
posted by Admiral Haddock at 8:16 PM on July 21, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by Admiral Haddock at 8:16 PM on July 21, 2010 [2 favorites]
What precludes me from wearing a tie? Because I work in IT? Because I'm an intern?
Because presumably you want this internship to turn into a full time job? If your cross the person who doesn't like that you wear a tie, you risk not getting a job offer. It's a risk. Not a certainty. And it wouldn't really be "fair." But stranger things have happened.
You pays your money and you takes your chances.
posted by mullacc at 8:18 PM on July 21, 2010
Because presumably you want this internship to turn into a full time job? If your cross the person who doesn't like that you wear a tie, you risk not getting a job offer. It's a risk. Not a certainty. And it wouldn't really be "fair." But stranger things have happened.
You pays your money and you takes your chances.
posted by mullacc at 8:18 PM on July 21, 2010
OP, you said:
I'm very friendly, well spoken and always remember my manners, and will continue to do so.
and you then asked:
And who ever said I had one tie? Since when does being an intern means I'm poor and can only afford a single tie? If you must know I have about 7 ties - FCUK, Ralph Lauren and CK; a Kenneth Cole black shoes and a Salvatore Ferragamo brown shoes. What part of that says I'm a tool? And what makes me clueless?
Um, you implied it when you said "I paid money for it" (emphasis added) and the person who brought that up originally made it clear1 they weren't sure if you'd meant you only had one. Your response, quoted above, strongly suggests that you may not be as friendly, well-spoken and well-mannered as you believe you are.
So take that as you will, in the spirit of how you closed your original question: "I'm also open to criticism if anything about my attitude could be construed as offensive."
1"Also, you paid good money for it? As in, you have one tie, and you're wearing it every day? If that is really the case..."
posted by davejay at 8:20 PM on July 21, 2010 [10 favorites]
I'm very friendly, well spoken and always remember my manners, and will continue to do so.
and you then asked:
And who ever said I had one tie? Since when does being an intern means I'm poor and can only afford a single tie? If you must know I have about 7 ties - FCUK, Ralph Lauren and CK; a Kenneth Cole black shoes and a Salvatore Ferragamo brown shoes. What part of that says I'm a tool? And what makes me clueless?
Um, you implied it when you said "I paid money for it" (emphasis added) and the person who brought that up originally made it clear1 they weren't sure if you'd meant you only had one. Your response, quoted above, strongly suggests that you may not be as friendly, well-spoken and well-mannered as you believe you are.
So take that as you will, in the spirit of how you closed your original question: "I'm also open to criticism if anything about my attitude could be construed as offensive."
1"Also, you paid good money for it? As in, you have one tie, and you're wearing it every day? If that is really the case..."
posted by davejay at 8:20 PM on July 21, 2010 [10 favorites]
Why not stop wearing a tie for a day or two, and then wear it maybe once or twice a week? If anyone comments on it, just say you like them. There's no need for an all or nothing approach.
Question: "If you must know I have about 7 ties - FCUK, Ralph Lauren and CK; a Kenneth Cole black shoes and a Salvatore Ferragamo brown shoes. What part of that says I'm a tool?"
Answer: The name-dropping and odd hostility coming across in your comments.
posted by studioaudience at 8:21 PM on July 21, 2010 [23 favorites]
Question: "If you must know I have about 7 ties - FCUK, Ralph Lauren and CK; a Kenneth Cole black shoes and a Salvatore Ferragamo brown shoes. What part of that says I'm a tool?"
Answer: The name-dropping and odd hostility coming across in your comments.
posted by studioaudience at 8:21 PM on July 21, 2010 [23 favorites]
For what it's worth, I don't think you necessarily need to stop wearing the tie.
What I think is that this is bigger than the tie for you. You seem to have a lot of assumptions wrapped up in a very small piece of fabric. The general tone of your original post came off as sort of paranoid and self-involved, not to mention negative towards your new coworkers and general office environment at the new job. Your followup sounded even worse.
I also think there are some social cues you're missing in this situation, either because you're an outsider in an unfamiliar country, or because you're tense and taking things very seriously. You really ought to relax and remember that people are generally friendly and want to help.
posted by Sara C. at 8:24 PM on July 21, 2010 [7 favorites]
What I think is that this is bigger than the tie for you. You seem to have a lot of assumptions wrapped up in a very small piece of fabric. The general tone of your original post came off as sort of paranoid and self-involved, not to mention negative towards your new coworkers and general office environment at the new job. Your followup sounded even worse.
I also think there are some social cues you're missing in this situation, either because you're an outsider in an unfamiliar country, or because you're tense and taking things very seriously. You really ought to relax and remember that people are generally friendly and want to help.
posted by Sara C. at 8:24 PM on July 21, 2010 [7 favorites]
I will agree somewhat with windbox above, mostly in the overall spirit of his comments, but disagree strongly on the specifics.
Yes, it's mostly about HOW you do your job, and whether you are effective in your role, whether the work gets done, etc.
That said, there are situations in some jobs (perhaps not yours) where dressing well is a signal to others, usually outside your organization, that you are competent/serious/etc. Unless you're in a notoriously informal profession, I think it's safe to say jeans will almost never cut it in these situations. It's going to be a long professional life if you have an internal hissy fit everytime you have to wear chinos -- which in many office jobs is what everyone wears pretty much everyday and is the epitome of business casual.
posted by midatlanticwanderer at 8:25 PM on July 21, 2010
Yes, it's mostly about HOW you do your job, and whether you are effective in your role, whether the work gets done, etc.
That said, there are situations in some jobs (perhaps not yours) where dressing well is a signal to others, usually outside your organization, that you are competent/serious/etc. Unless you're in a notoriously informal profession, I think it's safe to say jeans will almost never cut it in these situations. It's going to be a long professional life if you have an internal hissy fit everytime you have to wear chinos -- which in many office jobs is what everyone wears pretty much everyday and is the epitome of business casual.
posted by midatlanticwanderer at 8:25 PM on July 21, 2010
I'm new and determined to get what I want in life,
Let me give you some fashion advice: you do not look like an ambitious, confident well-dressed go getter when wearing that tie. You look like a kid wearing a tie.
A couple things: you do not need to wear a tie to dress well. In fact, in many situations, people who wear suits are starting to forgo ties. If you've read "The Black Swan" (and I know you have: you're a go getter determined to get what you want in life, right?), Nicholas Nassim Taleb observes that he never wears ties except to funerals (presumably because being respectful is a heckuva lot more important than forgoing a piece of fabric because it's pointless and annoying). Next, what you want to do is dress what's called "Smart Casual." Don't wear a tie. You will become known not as "the snappy dresser" (which you're obviously going for) but "that intern who wears the tie." You want to wear a trucked-in, buttoned Oxford shirt (leave that top button unbuttoned and try to avoid white, it makes you look up tight), a nice pair of pants (flat front!) and maybe a casual blazer when you want to look extra-snappy.
In this environment, you can't be both the go-getter who knows what he wants out of life and is going to get it and "the guy who wears a tie." In this case, being a go-getter who knows what he wants in life is not wearing the tie, because it shows you're a "team player."
posted by deanc at 8:37 PM on July 21, 2010
Let me give you some fashion advice: you do not look like an ambitious, confident well-dressed go getter when wearing that tie. You look like a kid wearing a tie.
A couple things: you do not need to wear a tie to dress well. In fact, in many situations, people who wear suits are starting to forgo ties. If you've read "The Black Swan" (and I know you have: you're a go getter determined to get what you want in life, right?), Nicholas Nassim Taleb observes that he never wears ties except to funerals (presumably because being respectful is a heckuva lot more important than forgoing a piece of fabric because it's pointless and annoying). Next, what you want to do is dress what's called "Smart Casual." Don't wear a tie. You will become known not as "the snappy dresser" (which you're obviously going for) but "that intern who wears the tie." You want to wear a trucked-in, buttoned Oxford shirt (leave that top button unbuttoned and try to avoid white, it makes you look up tight), a nice pair of pants (flat front!) and maybe a casual blazer when you want to look extra-snappy.
In this environment, you can't be both the go-getter who knows what he wants out of life and is going to get it and "the guy who wears a tie." In this case, being a go-getter who knows what he wants in life is not wearing the tie, because it shows you're a "team player."
posted by deanc at 8:37 PM on July 21, 2010
Why not follow the friendly advice, and drop the tie, HOWEVER- wear a very clean, starched, dress shirt and creased dress slacks every day. You can still feel comfortable, and keep your sense of style, albeit sans the neckware. That and a positive, friendly demeanor will take care of all but the worst cynics. You are saying "I follow your tribe's rules- but I do it with my interpretation and sense of self".
posted by bytemover at 8:39 PM on July 21, 2010
posted by bytemover at 8:39 PM on July 21, 2010
Nobody's mentioned her throwaway reason that when you're walking next to "them" people will think her boss is really young.
She's telling you not to disrespect the women. She let you know that she gave the same advice to the last intern; I think you missed a hurdle there. By refusing to take her advice, you are probably coming across as unnecessarily uptight. Being inflexible is not desirable in dealing with people.
For what it's worth, women do get pretty weary of having it assumed that the man in the group is the boss. At some point you're going to be better off if the women in the office think well of you.
posted by Anitanola at 8:40 PM on July 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
She's telling you not to disrespect the women. She let you know that she gave the same advice to the last intern; I think you missed a hurdle there. By refusing to take her advice, you are probably coming across as unnecessarily uptight. Being inflexible is not desirable in dealing with people.
For what it's worth, women do get pretty weary of having it assumed that the man in the group is the boss. At some point you're going to be better off if the women in the office think well of you.
posted by Anitanola at 8:40 PM on July 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
Dude - you need to chill and not be so hostile towards the mostly friendly advice given here.
You said "the tie" 3 times in your question and added "paid money for it".. Please forgive those of us who interpreted that as being a single tie, since that is how it comes across.
My advice to you is to think about how you are reacting to the posted suggestions here, and consider whether there are any similarities to your workplace interactions.
Maybe you are simply misinterpreting helpful feedback, which is not, I assure you, "full of shit".
posted by walleeguy at 8:41 PM on July 21, 2010 [3 favorites]
You said "the tie" 3 times in your question and added "paid money for it".. Please forgive those of us who interpreted that as being a single tie, since that is how it comes across.
My advice to you is to think about how you are reacting to the posted suggestions here, and consider whether there are any similarities to your workplace interactions.
Maybe you are simply misinterpreting helpful feedback, which is not, I assure you, "full of shit".
posted by walleeguy at 8:41 PM on July 21, 2010 [3 favorites]
You want to fit in at a workplace, not stand out like you're wearing a costume.
I work in a mid-sized IT office with a range of clothing styles, but none of the men wear ties except for days when they meet with clients or the public. They all dress smartly, but not too formally. If I wore a tie, I think it would make others wonder if I were interviewing for a job outside the organization, or if I were aiming for my supervisor's job by dressing better than he does, or if I were just trying to get the higher-ups' attention by dressing in a manager costume.
My previous business-casual workplace had a guy who always wore a bow-tie. I can't remember anything about his skills or expertise or even personality, but wow, do I remember that cheesy bow-tie, and I still roll my eyes at how artificial it seemed. Fashion can be a great way to express yourself, but it can also be a pigeonhole ("Who? Oh yeah, Bow Tie Guy!").
posted by cadge at 8:48 PM on July 21, 2010
I work in a mid-sized IT office with a range of clothing styles, but none of the men wear ties except for days when they meet with clients or the public. They all dress smartly, but not too formally. If I wore a tie, I think it would make others wonder if I were interviewing for a job outside the organization, or if I were aiming for my supervisor's job by dressing better than he does, or if I were just trying to get the higher-ups' attention by dressing in a manager costume.
My previous business-casual workplace had a guy who always wore a bow-tie. I can't remember anything about his skills or expertise or even personality, but wow, do I remember that cheesy bow-tie, and I still roll my eyes at how artificial it seemed. Fashion can be a great way to express yourself, but it can also be a pigeonhole ("Who? Oh yeah, Bow Tie Guy!").
posted by cadge at 8:48 PM on July 21, 2010
there are lots of great ways to wear a tie where you don't look like a waiter
This is a real-time demonstration of the fashion rule about how the servant class dresses in an outfit that is the formal wear of 100 years ago. As the shirt-and-tie ensemble goes out of style, it becomes the designated uniform of servers of all types. So the question is, do you want to move up in the world, or do you want to be the guy who's dressed as though his job is to dote on people?
Let me use another example: if you're at a wedding reception wearing a well-cut suit and a nice tie, you're going to look dashing and handsome and attract the ladies. You'll be confident and good looking. Go for it!
Now what if you were wearing an evening coat with shirt tails, white gloves, and a vest? In theory you're dressing more formally and nicer than the other guests. In practice, you are dressed like a butler. What I'm trying to say here is that along with the reasons for dropping the tie that will make your internship a better and more valuable experience, you should also know that your dress ends up conveying in some ways the exact opposite of what you're trying to get across.
posted by deanc at 9:02 PM on July 21, 2010 [10 favorites]
This is a real-time demonstration of the fashion rule about how the servant class dresses in an outfit that is the formal wear of 100 years ago. As the shirt-and-tie ensemble goes out of style, it becomes the designated uniform of servers of all types. So the question is, do you want to move up in the world, or do you want to be the guy who's dressed as though his job is to dote on people?
Let me use another example: if you're at a wedding reception wearing a well-cut suit and a nice tie, you're going to look dashing and handsome and attract the ladies. You'll be confident and good looking. Go for it!
Now what if you were wearing an evening coat with shirt tails, white gloves, and a vest? In theory you're dressing more formally and nicer than the other guests. In practice, you are dressed like a butler. What I'm trying to say here is that along with the reasons for dropping the tie that will make your internship a better and more valuable experience, you should also know that your dress ends up conveying in some ways the exact opposite of what you're trying to get across.
posted by deanc at 9:02 PM on July 21, 2010 [10 favorites]
I know most people here are saying to listen to the woman who advised you, but I think you're right in being careful about her. You don't know the politics of the office yet.
I think the question you need to answer is: who IS this woman anyways?
If she is the internship coordinator, your assigned mentor/supervisor, or something like that, then yes, you should absolutely pay attention to her. Someone selected her to hold these duties because she generally does a good job and gives good advice.
BUT, in just about every job I have had, there is one person who is overly eager to give me advice on my very first day. This person is very much like you described: incredibly disgruntled, bitter, and knows the exact number of years/days/hours/minutes until retirement. The phrase these people often use that triggers a red flag for me is something about the fact that they "tell it like it is", and they will often say that people/management does not like them for that. It doesn't take long to watch the office politics and figure out that nobody else puts stock in anything this person says. This woman's strange Day 1 rumor-mongering about ties related to salaries of people across the hall is suspect to me.
So if I were you, I'd look to the department head, who you mentioned is male. How does he dress? Also, note that he did not support the "drop the tie" advice when they mentioned it to him. He could have laughed and said, "Yeah, it's a little much for us, but we're glad you're so eager" or something along those lines, but he didn't. Check him out-- what does he wear? Maybe go for something closer to that.
Have you been assigned a specific supervisor or mentor? If not, I'd ask for one. These questions (tie and who to view as a role model) are exactly the kind of question that mentors were made to answer.
Also, what others are saying in terms of dress is correct. You CAN look fantastic without a tie. If you wear properly-fitting clothes, you will look better than 98% of IT guys in general and 100% of the stereotypical ones. Nice khakis/chinos, fitted button down shirt, belt, socks, nice shoes (perhaps a classy loafer). You can play with shirt patterns (stripes, small checks) for fun like you might with ties. Oh, and iron that shirt (inside-out so the seams lay flat) to look really sharp. If you're deep into a printer or server rack, roll the sleeves up to to the elbows and you'll still look good.
And no matter what, don't be "that stereotypical guy in a tie" who strikes fear and loathing into the hearts of "those stereotypical IT guys". Don't be a jerk. Learn whatever you can from the team, and remember that you have something to offer them too, but offer it gently. Be flexible and be nice.
posted by scarnato at 9:10 PM on July 21, 2010
I think the question you need to answer is: who IS this woman anyways?
If she is the internship coordinator, your assigned mentor/supervisor, or something like that, then yes, you should absolutely pay attention to her. Someone selected her to hold these duties because she generally does a good job and gives good advice.
BUT, in just about every job I have had, there is one person who is overly eager to give me advice on my very first day. This person is very much like you described: incredibly disgruntled, bitter, and knows the exact number of years/days/hours/minutes until retirement. The phrase these people often use that triggers a red flag for me is something about the fact that they "tell it like it is", and they will often say that people/management does not like them for that. It doesn't take long to watch the office politics and figure out that nobody else puts stock in anything this person says. This woman's strange Day 1 rumor-mongering about ties related to salaries of people across the hall is suspect to me.
So if I were you, I'd look to the department head, who you mentioned is male. How does he dress? Also, note that he did not support the "drop the tie" advice when they mentioned it to him. He could have laughed and said, "Yeah, it's a little much for us, but we're glad you're so eager" or something along those lines, but he didn't. Check him out-- what does he wear? Maybe go for something closer to that.
Have you been assigned a specific supervisor or mentor? If not, I'd ask for one. These questions (tie and who to view as a role model) are exactly the kind of question that mentors were made to answer.
Also, what others are saying in terms of dress is correct. You CAN look fantastic without a tie. If you wear properly-fitting clothes, you will look better than 98% of IT guys in general and 100% of the stereotypical ones. Nice khakis/chinos, fitted button down shirt, belt, socks, nice shoes (perhaps a classy loafer). You can play with shirt patterns (stripes, small checks) for fun like you might with ties. Oh, and iron that shirt (inside-out so the seams lay flat) to look really sharp. If you're deep into a printer or server rack, roll the sleeves up to to the elbows and you'll still look good.
And no matter what, don't be "that stereotypical guy in a tie" who strikes fear and loathing into the hearts of "those stereotypical IT guys". Don't be a jerk. Learn whatever you can from the team, and remember that you have something to offer them too, but offer it gently. Be flexible and be nice.
posted by scarnato at 9:10 PM on July 21, 2010
You're from a different country with different standards. How would you feel, even subconciously, towards someone working in the same office/department that you do in your home country who showed up wearing short pants and a tanktop (or more subtly, without a tie) everyday?
Lose the tie. Start pumping iron and get tailored clothing.
This is much more awesome than a tie - did the heroic men in Heinlein novels ever wear a tie except when they were receive awards and acolades, and even then? Not much you can go about your jawline, but lifting can help define what you have.
On the gripping hand, superior competence - serious badassery trumps (almost) anything. If you're exceptional at what you do and you're enthusiastically happy about helping your cowokers accomplish their ends even if it has no or even negative impact on your own...? Your fashion choices will be forgiven or even adopted.
We had/have a post-doc in our lab; born in India, trained in Germany who had a much higher standard of dress than anyone else, including Principle Investigators. Man, is he an incredibly manipulative and self-centered prick. Even he eventually dressed down a little closer to the mean (except for expensive leather shoes with raised heels), but hasn't changed his modus operandi. I have to give that he's moderately competent, but he doesn't make the lab better (except for him).
Oh, right. Intern. Especially if you want a job with your current company - drop the tie. If you want to "upgrade," hope that you're as good as you think you are - tie or no tie. You might feel that you're in the "loser" department, but unbraiding your coworkers isn't the way to 1) get ahead, 2) make your department competitive (for ... respect?). Assimilate with your coworkers, potentiate change from within.
I don't recommend that route if you want to maintain your sanity or if you overestimate your coworkers.
posted by porpoise at 9:22 PM on July 21, 2010 [2 favorites]
Lose the tie. Start pumping iron and get tailored clothing.
This is much more awesome than a tie - did the heroic men in Heinlein novels ever wear a tie except when they were receive awards and acolades, and even then? Not much you can go about your jawline, but lifting can help define what you have.
On the gripping hand, superior competence - serious badassery trumps (almost) anything. If you're exceptional at what you do and you're enthusiastically happy about helping your cowokers accomplish their ends even if it has no or even negative impact on your own...? Your fashion choices will be forgiven or even adopted.
We had/have a post-doc in our lab; born in India, trained in Germany who had a much higher standard of dress than anyone else, including Principle Investigators. Man, is he an incredibly manipulative and self-centered prick. Even he eventually dressed down a little closer to the mean (except for expensive leather shoes with raised heels), but hasn't changed his modus operandi. I have to give that he's moderately competent, but he doesn't make the lab better (except for him).
Oh, right. Intern. Especially if you want a job with your current company - drop the tie. If you want to "upgrade," hope that you're as good as you think you are - tie or no tie. You might feel that you're in the "loser" department, but unbraiding your coworkers isn't the way to 1) get ahead, 2) make your department competitive (for ... respect?). Assimilate with your coworkers, potentiate change from within.
I don't recommend that route if you want to maintain your sanity or if you overestimate your coworkers.
posted by porpoise at 9:22 PM on July 21, 2010 [2 favorites]
Maybe compromise and just wear the tie every other day?
posted by turgid dahlia at 9:24 PM on July 21, 2010
posted by turgid dahlia at 9:24 PM on July 21, 2010
Finally, I'm usually happy for all responses for a question, whether they agree with me or not, but seriously this is full of shit.
I think maybe you are taking this tie thing a little too personally. Does wearing or not wearing a tie change who you are, your value as an employee, or your ability to help your customers/company?
Does it really matter if random people on the internet agree or disagree with you on this matter?
In any event, if I got his kind of response from you in real life after you came and asked me my opinion, I would think you were rude (whether you were wearing a tie or not).
posted by Menthol at 9:29 PM on July 21, 2010
I think maybe you are taking this tie thing a little too personally. Does wearing or not wearing a tie change who you are, your value as an employee, or your ability to help your customers/company?
Does it really matter if random people on the internet agree or disagree with you on this matter?
In any event, if I got his kind of response from you in real life after you came and asked me my opinion, I would think you were rude (whether you were wearing a tie or not).
posted by Menthol at 9:29 PM on July 21, 2010
I'm very friendly, well spoken and always remember my manners, and will continue to do so.
[three paragraphs later:]
I'm usually happy for all responses for a question, whether they agree with me or not, but seriously this is full of shit.
This is a really inappropriate response to people who are simply trying to give helpful answers to your question. Though I said before that you should wear the tie, I'd have to rethink this answer based on your behavior in this thread, which suggests that you should probably be on the safe side when it comes to acting appropriately in social situations. (And yes, this thread is a social situation; the idea of "manners" does apply here.)
posted by Jaltcoh at 9:35 PM on July 21, 2010 [11 favorites]
[three paragraphs later:]
I'm usually happy for all responses for a question, whether they agree with me or not, but seriously this is full of shit.
This is a really inappropriate response to people who are simply trying to give helpful answers to your question. Though I said before that you should wear the tie, I'd have to rethink this answer based on your behavior in this thread, which suggests that you should probably be on the safe side when it comes to acting appropriately in social situations. (And yes, this thread is a social situation; the idea of "manners" does apply here.)
posted by Jaltcoh at 9:35 PM on July 21, 2010 [11 favorites]
Spencer Reid, Matthew Gray Gubler's character on the US TV show Criminal Minds, can rock a tie.
However, everyone in the cast still knows that Dr. Reid is by far the youngest guy in the room, even if he does have a giant genius brain and can rock a tie. It's always going to be a tossup.
posted by fairytale of los angeles at 9:58 PM on July 21, 2010
However, everyone in the cast still knows that Dr. Reid is by far the youngest guy in the room, even if he does have a giant genius brain and can rock a tie. It's always going to be a tossup.
posted by fairytale of los angeles at 9:58 PM on July 21, 2010
Part of being well-dressed is dressing appropriately for the occasion.
You wouldn't wear a dark wool suit if you got invited by your boss to play golf, even though in the abstract, a dark suit is "nicer" (i.e. higher-status) clothing than typical golf attire. You don't wear hat and tails to a business meeting. Yeah it's more formal, but it's wrong -- it's just not appropriate for the occasion.
Business casual is hard. At least for men's clothing, it's probably one of the harder levels of formality to do well; there aren't as many easily-discernible rules as there are for, say, "business" or "black tie" or even "casual." It's a minefield, and a lot of people do it poorly. But that doesn't mean that standards don't exist, even if they sometimes vary arbitrarily from place to place and time to time. (E.g. "business casual" on a day when the CEO is dropping by could be different from a typical day; summer might be different than winter, etc.)
And you're overshooting the mark. A tie isn't part of typical business casual, and your coworkers have basically confirmed that your office isn't an exception. So, short answer, hang up the ties (I really hope it's not just one tie worn over and over, right? because that would be really...not good) and save them for when it's more appropriate.
If you want to show everyone that you're a stylish, snappy dresser, do it by coloring within the lines, as it were; figure out the little unspoken rules of your office's version of business casual, and then do the hell out of it. Find clothing that looks good on you and falls in the right formality range, and you'll impress without coming across as "the tie guy".
Incidentally, I think you're not giving your coworkers enough credit. Chances are, given that you're new, they're not out to crush your spirit just for the sheer tyrannical hell of it. They're probably trying to help you out, help you fit in, because honestly nobody wants more awkwardness in their workplace than there inevitably already is. Sure, you need to be on the lookout for backstabbers and sociopaths, and with experience you'll figure out who they are. But unless you work in an exceptionally toxic environment, my experience is that they're rare; most people you'll work with either don't give a crap or want to help you if they can. Let them.
posted by Kadin2048 at 10:18 PM on July 21, 2010 [2 favorites]
You wouldn't wear a dark wool suit if you got invited by your boss to play golf, even though in the abstract, a dark suit is "nicer" (i.e. higher-status) clothing than typical golf attire. You don't wear hat and tails to a business meeting. Yeah it's more formal, but it's wrong -- it's just not appropriate for the occasion.
Business casual is hard. At least for men's clothing, it's probably one of the harder levels of formality to do well; there aren't as many easily-discernible rules as there are for, say, "business" or "black tie" or even "casual." It's a minefield, and a lot of people do it poorly. But that doesn't mean that standards don't exist, even if they sometimes vary arbitrarily from place to place and time to time. (E.g. "business casual" on a day when the CEO is dropping by could be different from a typical day; summer might be different than winter, etc.)
And you're overshooting the mark. A tie isn't part of typical business casual, and your coworkers have basically confirmed that your office isn't an exception. So, short answer, hang up the ties (I really hope it's not just one tie worn over and over, right? because that would be really...not good) and save them for when it's more appropriate.
If you want to show everyone that you're a stylish, snappy dresser, do it by coloring within the lines, as it were; figure out the little unspoken rules of your office's version of business casual, and then do the hell out of it. Find clothing that looks good on you and falls in the right formality range, and you'll impress without coming across as "the tie guy".
Incidentally, I think you're not giving your coworkers enough credit. Chances are, given that you're new, they're not out to crush your spirit just for the sheer tyrannical hell of it. They're probably trying to help you out, help you fit in, because honestly nobody wants more awkwardness in their workplace than there inevitably already is. Sure, you need to be on the lookout for backstabbers and sociopaths, and with experience you'll figure out who they are. But unless you work in an exceptionally toxic environment, my experience is that they're rare; most people you'll work with either don't give a crap or want to help you if they can. Let them.
posted by Kadin2048 at 10:18 PM on July 21, 2010 [2 favorites]
As a person who hired many interns and who had a minimal dress code in my office as business casual, I would strongly recommend that you NOT drop the tie. If it makes you feel better and suits your sense of self and style, then wear it. Do not wear it just to make a statement that you can. Even if you catch shit for it wear it. You will eventually earn their respect. I would be impressed with a young kid bucking the trend because he wanted to look more professional.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 10:28 PM on July 21, 2010
posted by JohnnyGunn at 10:28 PM on July 21, 2010
OP: You're coming across here as arrogant and unwilling to listen to well-meaning advice. To the extent that the tie is probably contributing to a similar impression among your coworkers, you should DROP THE TIE.
posted by ewiar at 10:46 PM on July 21, 2010
posted by ewiar at 10:46 PM on July 21, 2010
If you wear a tie and act cheerful & respectful to your coworkers, they will shrug it off and eventually may grow fond of it as one of your quirks.
If you wear a tie and act condescending to your coworkers, they will resent you. The tie becomes a symbol of your attitude of superiority.
Quoted for truth.
We've got a bow-tie dude in our office. He gets a little ribbing for it, but he happily shrugs it off and defends his bow-ties because he likes them. If you're okay with being Tie Guy, and you make it clear that this is just comfortable for you, then you're doing fine.
posted by desuetude at 11:17 PM on July 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
If you wear a tie and act condescending to your coworkers, they will resent you. The tie becomes a symbol of your attitude of superiority.
Quoted for truth.
We've got a bow-tie dude in our office. He gets a little ribbing for it, but he happily shrugs it off and defends his bow-ties because he likes them. If you're okay with being Tie Guy, and you make it clear that this is just comfortable for you, then you're doing fine.
posted by desuetude at 11:17 PM on July 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
It seems to me that this is neither a case of making a moral last stand nor an issue of 'what all interns should/shouldn't wear'. This is about you, your workplace, and your office politics.
Since you've had a chance to get something of a feel for the team and have established a rapport with a few of them, I really think you should approach one of them alone, one that you trust to be honest with you, and casually find out what their assessment of the situation is. And then follow whatever they tell you.
You could approach whoever hired you/manages interns, but definitely find someone who knows the politics of the particular team you work in.
I would suggest you phrase it very non-confrontationally and make it much more about you not being familiar with the team's dynamics than about how you don't trust the woman who suggested you should drop it.
Perhaps something along the lines of: 'I know we were talking earlier about dropping the tie and I'm trying to figure out what to do. I do love my ties, but obviously, I don't want to give anyone the wrong impression of me. What do you think?'
posted by brambory at 11:46 PM on July 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
Since you've had a chance to get something of a feel for the team and have established a rapport with a few of them, I really think you should approach one of them alone, one that you trust to be honest with you, and casually find out what their assessment of the situation is. And then follow whatever they tell you.
You could approach whoever hired you/manages interns, but definitely find someone who knows the politics of the particular team you work in.
I would suggest you phrase it very non-confrontationally and make it much more about you not being familiar with the team's dynamics than about how you don't trust the woman who suggested you should drop it.
Perhaps something along the lines of: 'I know we were talking earlier about dropping the tie and I'm trying to figure out what to do. I do love my ties, but obviously, I don't want to give anyone the wrong impression of me. What do you think?'
posted by brambory at 11:46 PM on July 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
Welp, I'm about to be one of those people that's "full of shit," too, but, seriously. If you're confident in an unimportant quirky personal choice in apparel, it wouldn't even enter your mind to worry about it, defend it, question people, and defend it some more. Like, say, it was a weird old watch of your grandfather's that you'd been wearing since high school. If someone made a comment about it being too dressy, first, you'd be surprised to remember you were still wearing it. Then you'd shrug it off or laugh it off. And forget about it, while continuing to wear the watch. You would not write in to AskMefi if you should stop wearing the watch because someone mentioned it at work today.
My point is, preconceptions about interns, IT guys, and dressing for the job you want (or the job of the people across the hall that you keep mentioning) aside, you are probably not radiating comfort in your style choices right now, you're radiating defensiveness and uptightness. You listed brand names in an effort to NOT look like a tool, for goodness sake. I'm there not because of how I dress, I'm there because I was the best of 7 people, thanks. I didn't see a single person who even suggested that, so it was sort of a puzzling response. Like you might subconsciously think people won't take you seriously if you *don't* dress better than they do.
Why don't you keep dressing nicely in a shirt and slacks and just go a tiny bit overboard with ties and jackets once in awhile? I hold "dressy Fridays" for myself sometimes, which has the added benefit of not requiring going home to change if I want to go out somewhere kind of nice after work. You will then have a chance to show off how well you can dress while still conforming to the social mores of your environment the majority of the time.
posted by wending my way at 12:22 AM on July 22, 2010 [4 favorites]
My point is, preconceptions about interns, IT guys, and dressing for the job you want (or the job of the people across the hall that you keep mentioning) aside, you are probably not radiating comfort in your style choices right now, you're radiating defensiveness and uptightness. You listed brand names in an effort to NOT look like a tool, for goodness sake. I'm there not because of how I dress, I'm there because I was the best of 7 people, thanks. I didn't see a single person who even suggested that, so it was sort of a puzzling response. Like you might subconsciously think people won't take you seriously if you *don't* dress better than they do.
Why don't you keep dressing nicely in a shirt and slacks and just go a tiny bit overboard with ties and jackets once in awhile? I hold "dressy Fridays" for myself sometimes, which has the added benefit of not requiring going home to change if I want to go out somewhere kind of nice after work. You will then have a chance to show off how well you can dress while still conforming to the social mores of your environment the majority of the time.
posted by wending my way at 12:22 AM on July 22, 2010 [4 favorites]
It's an IT department, and for all of my working career I've struggled to combat the usual reputation of the "IT guy" who dresses in jeans and polos and has bad taste in clothes.
Lots of people in IT wear ties.
As long as you keep it tasteful and stylish and you don't show up anybody else that is in an authority position, keep the tie.
posted by chillmost at 12:59 AM on July 22, 2010
Lots of people in IT wear ties.
As long as you keep it tasteful and stylish and you don't show up anybody else that is in an authority position, keep the tie.
posted by chillmost at 12:59 AM on July 22, 2010
Do what the boss says; ignore the busybodies. (Which means, be friendly to them, thank them for their kind advice, but don't follow it.)
posted by gjc at 3:05 AM on July 22, 2010
posted by gjc at 3:05 AM on July 22, 2010
If you're wearing short sleeves and no jacket with the tie, I guarantee that, to your coworkers, you look like a Mormon missionary or this. Find a way to look smart (as in stylish, not IQ) without it.
posted by availablelight at 4:17 AM on July 22, 2010
posted by availablelight at 4:17 AM on July 22, 2010
What the hell would the people above be saying to you if you were a winsome young woman wanting to wear a miniskirt and facing friendly "opposition?"
Unless you're working in a Mad Men environment, they'd be saying "You need to wear a longer skirt. While skirts are a part of our dress code, that skirt's not appropriate." Been there, done that. Was angry then, but I get it now.
If you're hired as a full-on employee, then certainly it's fine to have quirky personal style that's within the boundaries of the dress code. But I think an internship is a different case. You're presumably there to learn how to work at a job like that in an environment like that. To get your feet wet and open doors. Also remember that opportunities for future/better jobs don't always come from the top down. Often they come from your coworkers, who don't feel like leaving the safety of their current job for the new one. If you've been typecast as the arrogant intern, they're not going to want to help you.
Our IT guys wear jeans and polos because a lot of their jobs involve junk like crawling on the floor troubleshooting network connections and blowing dust out of computers and such, not because they're slobs.
posted by ladygypsy at 4:26 AM on July 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
Unless you're working in a Mad Men environment, they'd be saying "You need to wear a longer skirt. While skirts are a part of our dress code, that skirt's not appropriate." Been there, done that. Was angry then, but I get it now.
If you're hired as a full-on employee, then certainly it's fine to have quirky personal style that's within the boundaries of the dress code. But I think an internship is a different case. You're presumably there to learn how to work at a job like that in an environment like that. To get your feet wet and open doors. Also remember that opportunities for future/better jobs don't always come from the top down. Often they come from your coworkers, who don't feel like leaving the safety of their current job for the new one. If you've been typecast as the arrogant intern, they're not going to want to help you.
Our IT guys wear jeans and polos because a lot of their jobs involve junk like crawling on the floor troubleshooting network connections and blowing dust out of computers and such, not because they're slobs.
posted by ladygypsy at 4:26 AM on July 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
Yikes. OP, if your attitude at your new job is anything like your follow-up comment, you need to drop much more than the tie. You're coming across exactly how people have warned and feared you might. And this is what, day four of your internship? And you're already getting defensive and assuming all sorts of negative qualities about these new co-workers you barely know? You are setting yourself up for conflict and for being talked about behind your back.
posted by Metroid Baby at 4:52 AM on July 22, 2010 [5 favorites]
posted by Metroid Baby at 4:52 AM on July 22, 2010 [5 favorites]
Wow, I would not have expected there to be 40 additional comments on this thread! For the record I apologize for peripherally mentioning bow ties, which I know the OP didn't go anywhere near, but seem to have snuck into the discussion.
Upon reading all of these additional responses, I think cheesecake has distilled what everyone is trying to say into these two succinct sentences, which bear re-repeating:
Upon reading all of these additional responses, I think cheesecake has distilled what everyone is trying to say into these two succinct sentences, which bear re-repeating:
If you wear a tie and act cheerful & respectful to your coworkers, they will shrug it off and eventually may grow fond of it as one of your quirks.posted by usonian at 5:03 AM on July 22, 2010
If you wear a tie and act condescending to your coworkers, they will resent you. The tie becomes a symbol of your attitude of superiority.
Hamming, You and your Research
For a long time John has had to overcome this kind of hostility. It's wasted effort! I didn't say you should conform; I said "The appearance of conforming gets you a long way." If you chose to assert your ego in any number of ways, "I am going to do it my way," you pay a small steady price throughout the whole of your professional career. And this, over a whole lifetime, adds up to an enormous amount of needless trouble.
It's really up to you, but honestly, like other people have said, better a jacket with no tie than a tie with no jacket.
posted by Comrade_robot at 6:30 AM on July 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
For a long time John has had to overcome this kind of hostility. It's wasted effort! I didn't say you should conform; I said "The appearance of conforming gets you a long way." If you chose to assert your ego in any number of ways, "I am going to do it my way," you pay a small steady price throughout the whole of your professional career. And this, over a whole lifetime, adds up to an enormous amount of needless trouble.
It's really up to you, but honestly, like other people have said, better a jacket with no tie than a tie with no jacket.
posted by Comrade_robot at 6:30 AM on July 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
You'll be seen as the pompous, better-than-thou intern if you keep up with the tie. I'm sorry if that's not what you intend, but that's what will happen.
Srsly.
I found out the hard way that dress codes really do matter. If you try to get creative, you're not seen as having your own style - you're seen as troublesome. I worked someplace with a strict dress code and tried to find ways to personalize it. I got called out time and time and time and time again for the most minor infractions, to the point where I had to follow the dress code TO THE LETTER and adhere much more strictly than everyone else on my team because the managers would inevitably come and "have a chat" if my earrings were one millimeter over the standard "acceptable" size.
If you keep the tie now as a intern, you'll be seen as someone who values himself over his superiors and finds his own opinion as more important than everyone else's. Don't pick this hill to die on. It won't affect your job performance, but it will affect the opinions your bosses have of you. Take the advice, drop the tie, and find a less obtrusive way to "look good." Cufflinks? A classy pin? Something that will give you the same feeling of being polished that won't be ostentatious to everyone else.
If you must know I have about 7 ties - FCUK, Ralph Lauren and CK; a Kenneth Cole black shoes and a Salvatore Ferragamo brown shoes. What part of that says I'm a tool?
Um, actually that whole sentence makes you sound like a tool. No one cares what brand your shoes are. No one. Just you. If someone started telling me about the brand of their shoes, I would think "Christ, what a tool."
posted by grapefruitmoon at 6:32 AM on July 22, 2010 [4 favorites]
Srsly.
I found out the hard way that dress codes really do matter. If you try to get creative, you're not seen as having your own style - you're seen as troublesome. I worked someplace with a strict dress code and tried to find ways to personalize it. I got called out time and time and time and time again for the most minor infractions, to the point where I had to follow the dress code TO THE LETTER and adhere much more strictly than everyone else on my team because the managers would inevitably come and "have a chat" if my earrings were one millimeter over the standard "acceptable" size.
If you keep the tie now as a intern, you'll be seen as someone who values himself over his superiors and finds his own opinion as more important than everyone else's. Don't pick this hill to die on. It won't affect your job performance, but it will affect the opinions your bosses have of you. Take the advice, drop the tie, and find a less obtrusive way to "look good." Cufflinks? A classy pin? Something that will give you the same feeling of being polished that won't be ostentatious to everyone else.
If you must know I have about 7 ties - FCUK, Ralph Lauren and CK; a Kenneth Cole black shoes and a Salvatore Ferragamo brown shoes. What part of that says I'm a tool?
Um, actually that whole sentence makes you sound like a tool. No one cares what brand your shoes are. No one. Just you. If someone started telling me about the brand of their shoes, I would think "Christ, what a tool."
posted by grapefruitmoon at 6:32 AM on July 22, 2010 [4 favorites]
Mod note: From the OP:
Hi, could you please clarify that the last couple paragraphs in my followup response were aimed at this guyposted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:36 AM on July 22, 2010
Let us examine your reasons:
1) You paid money for it. It isn't like they go bad in a couple of weeks, like oranges. You know this is a bad reason.
2) You have your own personal sense of style, and dressing well makes you feel more comfortable, competent, and confident. Wear nicer clothes, rather than different clothes. A very solid dress shirt makes me feel spiffy enough.
3) You shouldn't let other people control your actions, actions which aren't against the rule. You're working, at a job. It's all about controlling your actions. Do not kid yourself.
4) You are not a jaded employee who's been there for years and is unhappy with your position. You're new and determined to get what you want in life, and don't want to let someone else's lack of energy bring you down. The solution for this is hard, fast, accurate, cheap, inspired work.
5) It's an IT department, and for all of your working career you've struggled to combat the usual reputation of the "IT guy" who dresses in jeans and polos and has bad taste in clothes. If you want to fight the IT reputation, being a Quirky Guy who makes Unpopular Social Choices is a funny way to do it.
I work in IT. You may dress nicely without wearing a tie. Do that. Very occasionally, for big meetings, I wear a tie. I get more "hey, you look really nice today!" than ribbing, but it isn't a non-zero amount of ribbing.
Wear a tie on Mondays, if you must, as the opposite of Casual Friday. When someone comments, a self-deprecating "It's Eager Beaver Monday!" and a smile will go a long way. Then stop hanging out on
posted by adipocere at 7:11 AM on July 22, 2010 [2 favorites]
1) You paid money for it. It isn't like they go bad in a couple of weeks, like oranges. You know this is a bad reason.
2) You have your own personal sense of style, and dressing well makes you feel more comfortable, competent, and confident. Wear nicer clothes, rather than different clothes. A very solid dress shirt makes me feel spiffy enough.
3) You shouldn't let other people control your actions, actions which aren't against the rule. You're working, at a job. It's all about controlling your actions. Do not kid yourself.
4) You are not a jaded employee who's been there for years and is unhappy with your position. You're new and determined to get what you want in life, and don't want to let someone else's lack of energy bring you down. The solution for this is hard, fast, accurate, cheap, inspired work.
5) It's an IT department, and for all of your working career you've struggled to combat the usual reputation of the "IT guy" who dresses in jeans and polos and has bad taste in clothes. If you want to fight the IT reputation, being a Quirky Guy who makes Unpopular Social Choices is a funny way to do it.
I work in IT. You may dress nicely without wearing a tie. Do that. Very occasionally, for big meetings, I wear a tie. I get more "hey, you look really nice today!" than ribbing, but it isn't a non-zero amount of ribbing.
Wear a tie on Mondays, if you must, as the opposite of Casual Friday. When someone comments, a self-deprecating "It's Eager Beaver Monday!" and a smile will go a long way. Then stop hanging out on
/fa/ and Lookbook.posted by adipocere at 7:11 AM on July 22, 2010 [2 favorites]
"A tie with no jacket is dorky dork dork dork dork."
Depends how you rock it - a guy in my casual office wears a black tie with jeans and looks pretty cool and rockabilly.
You sound quite young and, based on my five years in school uniform, young lads do not look good in ties. I worked in an office with a dress-code (Casual Friday only applied if you donated money to the charity of their choice) and you would be surprised how tacky and awful 'office wear' is when interpreted by people in their late teens and early twenties. Fat knots, bad combinations of colour, cheap, over-shiny shoes. I've also hung out with a lot of IT guys, so I can see where you're coming from - kudos to you for not wanting to wear faded black Linux shirts all the time - but I think your co-worker is trying to help you settle in to their office culture, which is also a stylistic skill.
You're male (I'm guessing) so it's easier for you to 'dress business' on a budget (women's officewear on a temp wage = badly fitting and made from the skins of 1000 dead polyesters) and there's nothing wrong with looking smart. But you need to settle in a bit before changing the social norms. I remember being a temp and being told to remove my hat in the office - I did, I wasn't happy about it, it made me want to get a Proper Job in a place where I could wear a hat if I felt like it. Take the tie off, do your job, fit in a bit, and turn that resentment about it into motivation to get to the place you want to be - somewhere where the IT guy can look as snappy as the rest of the office.
posted by mippy at 7:42 AM on July 22, 2010
Depends how you rock it - a guy in my casual office wears a black tie with jeans and looks pretty cool and rockabilly.
You sound quite young and, based on my five years in school uniform, young lads do not look good in ties. I worked in an office with a dress-code (Casual Friday only applied if you donated money to the charity of their choice) and you would be surprised how tacky and awful 'office wear' is when interpreted by people in their late teens and early twenties. Fat knots, bad combinations of colour, cheap, over-shiny shoes. I've also hung out with a lot of IT guys, so I can see where you're coming from - kudos to you for not wanting to wear faded black Linux shirts all the time - but I think your co-worker is trying to help you settle in to their office culture, which is also a stylistic skill.
You're male (I'm guessing) so it's easier for you to 'dress business' on a budget (women's officewear on a temp wage = badly fitting and made from the skins of 1000 dead polyesters) and there's nothing wrong with looking smart. But you need to settle in a bit before changing the social norms. I remember being a temp and being told to remove my hat in the office - I did, I wasn't happy about it, it made me want to get a Proper Job in a place where I could wear a hat if I felt like it. Take the tie off, do your job, fit in a bit, and turn that resentment about it into motivation to get to the place you want to be - somewhere where the IT guy can look as snappy as the rest of the office.
posted by mippy at 7:42 AM on July 22, 2010
tie with no jacket ALWAYS looks dorky. ALWAYS.
Eh, not really. Even in places where business attire is required, men usually leave the jacket off. I'm wearing a tie with no jacket right now (not even draping over my chair), and I don't think I look dorky.
posted by Jaltcoh at 7:47 AM on July 22, 2010
Eh, not really. Even in places where business attire is required, men usually leave the jacket off. I'm wearing a tie with no jacket right now (not even draping over my chair), and I don't think I look dorky.
posted by Jaltcoh at 7:47 AM on July 22, 2010
I'll pitch in with Jaltcoh that
And tie with no jacket ALWAYS looks dorky.
is just silly. For instance, an Express MKII shirt (or any button shirt with detailing) can look pretty darn good if you offset the color/pattern of the shirt with a slimmish tie. Now I'm sure if you were wearing a billowy, bland solid dress shirt that's the traditional three-sizes-too-large and one of those egregiously wide ties, you'd come off looking like someone who had never worn a tie without a jacket.
I work in IT myself. If your work says it's probably best to drop the tie, it's probably best to drop it at least four days out of the week. Choose a weekday to be a dressy day for you, wear whatever your best is on that day, and tone it down for the rest of the week. Be yourself and fit in at the same time. Per Jobs: "Not that big of a deal."
posted by Phyltre at 12:01 PM on July 22, 2010
And tie with no jacket ALWAYS looks dorky.
is just silly. For instance, an Express MKII shirt (or any button shirt with detailing) can look pretty darn good if you offset the color/pattern of the shirt with a slimmish tie. Now I'm sure if you were wearing a billowy, bland solid dress shirt that's the traditional three-sizes-too-large and one of those egregiously wide ties, you'd come off looking like someone who had never worn a tie without a jacket.
I work in IT myself. If your work says it's probably best to drop the tie, it's probably best to drop it at least four days out of the week. Choose a weekday to be a dressy day for you, wear whatever your best is on that day, and tone it down for the rest of the week. Be yourself and fit in at the same time. Per Jobs: "Not that big of a deal."
posted by Phyltre at 12:01 PM on July 22, 2010
She pointed out that the other people in a nearby department across the corridor do dress better than they do, however.
I have to clock in another vote for wear what you want. I work in a profession where most people dress terribly, and I just refuse to do that. (By terribly, I mean sweatpants, free giveaway T-shirts from vendors, etc.) Yes, I have been teased and harrassed over the years. I've also been chosen to dine with potential financial donors and to moderate at conferences. So I'm not sorry that I don't fit in.
posted by Knowyournuts at 4:55 PM on July 22, 2010
I have to clock in another vote for wear what you want. I work in a profession where most people dress terribly, and I just refuse to do that. (By terribly, I mean sweatpants, free giveaway T-shirts from vendors, etc.) Yes, I have been teased and harrassed over the years. I've also been chosen to dine with potential financial donors and to moderate at conferences. So I'm not sorry that I don't fit in.
posted by Knowyournuts at 4:55 PM on July 22, 2010
Hi, could you please clarify that the last couple paragraphs in my followup response were aimed at this guy
Yeah, we know. I specifically quoted him/her, in fact, and so did someone else.
posted by davejay at 7:33 PM on July 22, 2010
Yeah, we know. I specifically quoted him/her, in fact, and so did someone else.
posted by davejay at 7:33 PM on July 22, 2010
So the head of the department thinks it's fine, and you want a career in IT? Then ignore her and wear the tie.
My experience in IT is that, if you are good at your work and get along OK, you should be fine. Stupid politics over clothing don't usually figure into the equation. People who aren't really doing much useful work and hate their jobs make a big deal about petty stuff like this, but from what you said, the IT head doesn't care. Are you going to be depending on her opinion for your next career move, or are you going to depend on being in the good graces of people in IT, including the head of IT? And they don't care? So wear what you like.
posted by citron at 8:15 PM on July 22, 2010
My experience in IT is that, if you are good at your work and get along OK, you should be fine. Stupid politics over clothing don't usually figure into the equation. People who aren't really doing much useful work and hate their jobs make a big deal about petty stuff like this, but from what you said, the IT head doesn't care. Are you going to be depending on her opinion for your next career move, or are you going to depend on being in the good graces of people in IT, including the head of IT? And they don't care? So wear what you like.
posted by citron at 8:15 PM on July 22, 2010
Also IMHO, regarding the stubborness and energy and pride that make you want to KEEP THE TIE at all costs?
Yes this is counterproductive as far as keeping on the good side of petty and difficult middle managers and office staff who want to make the world boring and be the arbiters of appropriate behavior.
But stubborness/energy/pride will keep you going and keep you motivated enough to push yourself to where you finally land a GREAT job at an interesting place, or start your own company so that you don't have to deal with this stuff.
I'm just saying. If, from day 1 of your career, you acquiesce to every petty little demand to change yourself to fit into a culture that sucks, you're on a career path to.. perpetuating that culture and not doing much interesting work.
posted by citron at 8:29 PM on July 22, 2010
Yes this is counterproductive as far as keeping on the good side of petty and difficult middle managers and office staff who want to make the world boring and be the arbiters of appropriate behavior.
But stubborness/energy/pride will keep you going and keep you motivated enough to push yourself to where you finally land a GREAT job at an interesting place, or start your own company so that you don't have to deal with this stuff.
I'm just saying. If, from day 1 of your career, you acquiesce to every petty little demand to change yourself to fit into a culture that sucks, you're on a career path to.. perpetuating that culture and not doing much interesting work.
posted by citron at 8:29 PM on July 22, 2010
Why not ask the boss you mentioned?
Ask him whether it's really ok for your to wear your tie (as his words suggest) and say that dressing well motivates you. Whatever answer you get, don't show annoyance, righteous indignation (at your coworkers) or vindication!
And if he says it's ok to wear a tie, just go on wearing it without explaining yourself to your coworkers. Treat whatever your coworkers say as a humorous ribbing. (Such as "what can I say? I love my tie!")
The problem won't be the tie, the problem will be your defensive attitude and your view of your coworkers as "jaded employees" with a "lack of energy" - it will show.
posted by Omnomnom at 11:06 PM on July 22, 2010
Ask him whether it's really ok for your to wear your tie (as his words suggest) and say that dressing well motivates you. Whatever answer you get, don't show annoyance, righteous indignation (at your coworkers) or vindication!
And if he says it's ok to wear a tie, just go on wearing it without explaining yourself to your coworkers. Treat whatever your coworkers say as a humorous ribbing. (Such as "what can I say? I love my tie!")
The problem won't be the tie, the problem will be your defensive attitude and your view of your coworkers as "jaded employees" with a "lack of energy" - it will show.
posted by Omnomnom at 11:06 PM on July 22, 2010
I think one big reason for the conflict is that the tie represents such a huge part of who you are and who you want to be. The tie broadcasts who you want to be to your coworkers: Proffessionalism, eagerness, work ethics etc.
On the other hand, you wouldn't wear it to a barbecue or a live concert (I hope) because it's not appropriate there. So if it's decreed that a tie is not appropriate in the working environment, you are not actually broadcasting who you want to be, the message is not getting across. Instead, you are broadcasting "I'm not as slummy as everyone else and I don't give a shit about what the unspoken norms are in my department. I'm better than you."
posted by Omnomnom at 11:10 PM on July 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
On the other hand, you wouldn't wear it to a barbecue or a live concert (I hope) because it's not appropriate there. So if it's decreed that a tie is not appropriate in the working environment, you are not actually broadcasting who you want to be, the message is not getting across. Instead, you are broadcasting "I'm not as slummy as everyone else and I don't give a shit about what the unspoken norms are in my department. I'm better than you."
posted by Omnomnom at 11:10 PM on July 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
Intern coordinator here, and there is nothing I hate more than a pompous intern who takes him/herself too seriously. Plus, there are a lot of options between "tie" and "dorky, can't dress IT dude." You sounds like a stylish young man, and I'm sure you can manage to strike the appropriate balance.
posted by naoko at 4:50 PM on July 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by naoko at 4:50 PM on July 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
Else, I'd get rid of the tie.
posted by dfriedman at 6:26 PM on July 21, 2010 [2 favorites]