Good dog or bad dog ?
July 18, 2010 6:51 PM Subscribe
Good dog or bad dog? I think know that it's good to praise a dog for the behavior you want (good dog) and scold it for behavior you don't want (bad dog!). Help me with this please dog-whisperers ... I let 3 dogs out of the house at late late night at night for a few minutes for a last chance to relieve themselves. They have a multi-acre space to run in. When I call them, two of the 3 come back immediately. The third (always the same dog) does not.
The third dog need lots more calling to get back inside. Sometimes it takes 5 minutes. Sometimes I have to go hunting for it. I'm getting very frustrated.
The question: When the third dog does eventually come back ... Do I praise it for coming back, or scold it for not coming when I called? Or scold and praise in some clever combo? Or what please?
The third dog need lots more calling to get back inside. Sometimes it takes 5 minutes. Sometimes I have to go hunting for it. I'm getting very frustrated.
The question: When the third dog does eventually come back ... Do I praise it for coming back, or scold it for not coming when I called? Or scold and praise in some clever combo? Or what please?
'Come' is one of the most difficult commands. There is no way to punish disobedience, because you are then punishing coming finally.
You don't say, but I would have to guess, I'll bet it is the alpha that is taking the extra time (it is a protective and power posture, but a lower dog might want the time alone too.)
In either case, I think it might be useful to have a different time limit for the third dog. Give it an extra moment (every dog likes to be special sometimes), put the other dogs in and then call him (her) separately, and then give lots and lots of praise. That might not work all by its self, but add that to a few sessions with a long line, and I think it would help.
posted by Some1 at 7:03 PM on July 18, 2010 [2 favorites]
You don't say, but I would have to guess, I'll bet it is the alpha that is taking the extra time (it is a protective and power posture, but a lower dog might want the time alone too.)
In either case, I think it might be useful to have a different time limit for the third dog. Give it an extra moment (every dog likes to be special sometimes), put the other dogs in and then call him (her) separately, and then give lots and lots of praise. That might not work all by its self, but add that to a few sessions with a long line, and I think it would help.
posted by Some1 at 7:03 PM on July 18, 2010 [2 favorites]
I'd suggest working on "come" at a time of day when the dog is not being difficult, and leash-walking the dog in the evenings until "come" is more solid. When working on it, save treats for good performance, verbal "reward" only for mediocre performance. There are many, many ways to make "come" more solid, including flashing Really Good Treats or using a very long line, among others.
Do reward for obedience at night, even if it takes a while, but to polish it up, move out of the situation where obedience is slow.
posted by galadriel at 7:08 PM on July 18, 2010 [3 favorites]
Do reward for obedience at night, even if it takes a while, but to polish it up, move out of the situation where obedience is slow.
posted by galadriel at 7:08 PM on July 18, 2010 [3 favorites]
I am currently looking after four dogs, one of whom seems to forget her name when I want her to come back. This dog is a terrier, who are known to be extremely absent-minded (it would be helpful to know the breed of your dog, in case it has certain characteristics that are just ingrained into its DNA - there are ways to work around their quirks, never fear!)
If you are actually successful in calling the dog back in, I would praise them for being such a good dog to come back with lots of affection and tummy rubs. I would introduce a treat for the dog coming back, which would give it some incentive to come back quickly (and keep it up! practice makes perfect!) You could also go so far as to yell out into the darkness their "treat word". Ours is, "do you want a biscuit/chew/swizzle?!" This usually brings the herd out of the darkness and barreling into the living room.
Basically, the dog doesn't know that it was supposed to come back at the same time as the others. Our dog is a few years older, a terrier, and a loner from the pack while outside. You should not scold the dog when it doesn't come back right after doing his business; just tell him he's a good dog for coming back when he does.
posted by ThaBombShelterSmith at 7:09 PM on July 18, 2010
If you are actually successful in calling the dog back in, I would praise them for being such a good dog to come back with lots of affection and tummy rubs. I would introduce a treat for the dog coming back, which would give it some incentive to come back quickly (and keep it up! practice makes perfect!) You could also go so far as to yell out into the darkness their "treat word". Ours is, "do you want a biscuit/chew/swizzle?!" This usually brings the herd out of the darkness and barreling into the living room.
Basically, the dog doesn't know that it was supposed to come back at the same time as the others. Our dog is a few years older, a terrier, and a loner from the pack while outside. You should not scold the dog when it doesn't come back right after doing his business; just tell him he's a good dog for coming back when he does.
posted by ThaBombShelterSmith at 7:09 PM on July 18, 2010
You need to train the recall on dog #3 under conditions where you have more control and fewer distractions, gradually building up to the mega-distraction of being in a multi-acre space late at night. In the meantime, I would leash that dog for late-night potty trips, because you don't want it to get any more practice in blowing you off. Every time you call it more than once and it doesn't come, it is learning that it can take its time coming.
But if it's just a question, as originally asked, of whether to reward or punish, the answer is reward--and you should do it with the most awesome treat available. You need to make coming when called more appealing than nosing around in the dark. Scolding will do nothing but further weaken his recall.
posted by HotToddy at 7:13 PM on July 18, 2010 [2 favorites]
But if it's just a question, as originally asked, of whether to reward or punish, the answer is reward--and you should do it with the most awesome treat available. You need to make coming when called more appealing than nosing around in the dark. Scolding will do nothing but further weaken his recall.
posted by HotToddy at 7:13 PM on July 18, 2010 [2 favorites]
I agree with using the 'treat' word and rewarding him when he comes back. Works with my dogs, and I have 6 (ok, so one technically doesn't respond, but she's blind and deaf and old, so I let her do her thing).
posted by bolognius maximus at 7:21 PM on July 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by bolognius maximus at 7:21 PM on July 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
what about noisily giving the other two dogs treats when they come back right away? that might entice the third dog to come back sooner.
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 7:30 PM on July 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 7:30 PM on July 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
Punishment is no good when disassociated from an immediate event. Myself, I train using purely positive reinforcement (for example, providing a positive alternative to a bad behavior and rewarding that.
If you take this tack, then a treat when they come if called - but only if they come when called. If they come when they feel like it, no treat.
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 7:40 PM on July 18, 2010
If you take this tack, then a treat when they come if called - but only if they come when called. If they come when they feel like it, no treat.
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 7:40 PM on July 18, 2010
Praise with copious treats - then they always want to come when you call!
posted by thatone at 7:40 PM on July 18, 2010
posted by thatone at 7:40 PM on July 18, 2010
You may also want to try a) calling in a high pitched voice and b) walking out a bit and then calling as you run back to the house. Also seconding HotToddy's suggestion to train the dog for recall in other conditions. Use a longer lead and do some sessions with "come" until recall gets better.
posted by emkelley at 7:41 PM on July 18, 2010
posted by emkelley at 7:41 PM on July 18, 2010
This is probably controversial, but my parents got their (begrudgingly acquired) dog an electric shock collar for just this reason.
She's remarkably well-behaved, but lollygags around outside and likes to run into other people's yards when neighbors are out. It used to just be annoying, but not too long ago she tripped up and injured someone jogging by the house after my dad had called for her to stop and come back several times (he was, of course, heading out to stop her, but she was far away).
Anyway, they got her the shock collar to train her to come back when she was called. It only took about 5 times before she got the picture. These days she's only let out of the house if she's wearing the collar, but no one ever uses the controller anymore. She's learned to come when called.
If the praising/scolding scheme you decide on just isn't working out, this might be a good last resort option.
posted by phunniemee at 7:43 PM on July 18, 2010 [2 favorites]
She's remarkably well-behaved, but lollygags around outside and likes to run into other people's yards when neighbors are out. It used to just be annoying, but not too long ago she tripped up and injured someone jogging by the house after my dad had called for her to stop and come back several times (he was, of course, heading out to stop her, but she was far away).
Anyway, they got her the shock collar to train her to come back when she was called. It only took about 5 times before she got the picture. These days she's only let out of the house if she's wearing the collar, but no one ever uses the controller anymore. She's learned to come when called.
If the praising/scolding scheme you decide on just isn't working out, this might be a good last resort option.
posted by phunniemee at 7:43 PM on July 18, 2010 [2 favorites]
If you scold the dog (which is not training and is pretty useless as a behavior-modification technique anyway, just so you know) when it comes eventually, you are scolding the dog for coming. You can think that you're scolding it for not coming, but you are training it NOT to come, since when it comes it gets scolded. You have seconds from the "transgression" to effectively punish it if you're going to (and I don't recommend you do), and whatever the dog was doing when the punishment occurs is what you're punishing, regardless of what you intend to punish.
People train their dogs not to come when called all the time by doing things like punishing the dog when it eventually comes, but we spend very little time actually training the dog TO come. I hear people screaming "FLUFFY!!!!!!" like Mommy Dearest in the park and I think that I sure as heck wouldn't come running to someone who sounded like that. Also, be aware that punishment is rewarding to the punisher, but is pretty ineffective at actually changing behavior, especially behavior like coming when called.
Hanging out in the yard smelling smells and doing dog things outside is extremely rewarding to a dog, you need to make coming when called rewarding. Don't get a shock collar (they come with a host of attendant major dangers), just train your dog to come when called. NEVER punish the dog when it comes to you, always praise. And keep a cookie jar near the door that you can rattle and then reward from (one low calorie cookie like a Zuke's Mini Bake), reward every time, and then when you happen to not have a cookie, the dog will still come anyway, since hey, last time there were cookies! Dogs learn easily, we just have to be aware of what it is we're teaching them, and it's often not what we think we are.
posted by biscotti at 8:10 PM on July 18, 2010 [3 favorites]
People train their dogs not to come when called all the time by doing things like punishing the dog when it eventually comes, but we spend very little time actually training the dog TO come. I hear people screaming "FLUFFY!!!!!!" like Mommy Dearest in the park and I think that I sure as heck wouldn't come running to someone who sounded like that. Also, be aware that punishment is rewarding to the punisher, but is pretty ineffective at actually changing behavior, especially behavior like coming when called.
Hanging out in the yard smelling smells and doing dog things outside is extremely rewarding to a dog, you need to make coming when called rewarding. Don't get a shock collar (they come with a host of attendant major dangers), just train your dog to come when called. NEVER punish the dog when it comes to you, always praise. And keep a cookie jar near the door that you can rattle and then reward from (one low calorie cookie like a Zuke's Mini Bake), reward every time, and then when you happen to not have a cookie, the dog will still come anyway, since hey, last time there were cookies! Dogs learn easily, we just have to be aware of what it is we're teaching them, and it's often not what we think we are.
posted by biscotti at 8:10 PM on July 18, 2010 [3 favorites]
just came in to recommend super-high value treats to use. Our dog just began training and the trainer has us using hot dogs and Natural Balance Food Roll in beef formula. You would not believe the difference in response between these food rewards and the other stuff we were using, such as Zuke's, which is a moist treat that we thought was pretty deelish for the dogs.
posted by choochoo at 8:17 PM on July 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by choochoo at 8:17 PM on July 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
Keep in mind that the dog determines what is a "super high value treat" (or, indeed, any reward - if you hate broccoli it isn't a reward for you no matter how many times I offer it)! My dogs adore Zuke's treats, but only certain flavors, and the Mini Bakes are the only dry treat (which is critical, since then they make noise when I shake the box to get them to come in when they'd rather not) they go ape over, but ape is what they go...over.
posted by biscotti at 8:23 PM on July 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by biscotti at 8:23 PM on July 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
The breed may also have something to do with the willingness of the dog to leave whatever it is doing in the yard. You don't mention what breed they are. Some breeds are more stubborn than others. Some breeds are more ruled by their noses than others. I have a beagle who will not respond to anything, calls, treats, or anything else, if he's got a scent out there in the yard and is intent on following it.
posted by blucevalo at 8:49 PM on July 18, 2010
posted by blucevalo at 8:49 PM on July 18, 2010
biscotti, didn't mean to quash your Zuke's suggestions, I must have posted around the same time you did as I didn't see your post until after mine went up. I agree the Mini Bakes seem to get good play with both my dogs. And it's true that what's high value will vary from dog to dog; for example our trainer told us about one of his clients, a weimaraer who didn't respond to any food reward except for SARDINES. Imagine that! Anyhow, just wanted to share my good treat experiences with Xhris in case it was helpful.
posted by choochoo at 9:28 PM on July 18, 2010
posted by choochoo at 9:28 PM on July 18, 2010
Heh I was coming in here to share that my dog's recall vastly improved with...sardines! It varies for every dog, but something powerfully scented really seemed to help him remember that Good Things come with that word. Definitely work on recall at other times of day, repeatedly over the day, so that nighttime isn't the only time you are reinforcing it.
Yes it meant a couple of weeks of walking around with little bits of chopped sardine in a baggie in my pocket. Not the most delightful scent (for us humans anyway) but it was well worth it over time. Once he was more reliable about coming when called, we were able to swap out the sardines for less stinky rewards.
posted by ambrosia at 11:10 PM on July 18, 2010
Yes it meant a couple of weeks of walking around with little bits of chopped sardine in a baggie in my pocket. Not the most delightful scent (for us humans anyway) but it was well worth it over time. Once he was more reliable about coming when called, we were able to swap out the sardines for less stinky rewards.
posted by ambrosia at 11:10 PM on July 18, 2010
The third dog need lots more calling to get back inside. Sometimes it takes 5 minutes.
Keep in mind that repeating a command over and over when the dog isn't responding and you aren't in a position to enforce is just going to desensitize the dog to the command. You call, dog ignores you, nothing happens. You call again, dog ignores you, nothing happens. Ergo, from the dog's point of view, the command is meaningless. I understand the urge, but you should avoid doing this.
posted by jon1270 at 3:23 AM on July 19, 2010
Keep in mind that repeating a command over and over when the dog isn't responding and you aren't in a position to enforce is just going to desensitize the dog to the command. You call, dog ignores you, nothing happens. You call again, dog ignores you, nothing happens. Ergo, from the dog's point of view, the command is meaningless. I understand the urge, but you should avoid doing this.
posted by jon1270 at 3:23 AM on July 19, 2010
yep, it's all about the treat. my husky is pretty well behaved, but loves being outside, especially when there's a lot of snow out there... but, we have a word for her favorite treat, and when she hears that, she comes running.....
And, as others have said, punishment just won't work in this case.. and, I don't think the shock collar will work well either, the dog will be in the yard, will get a shock, and will associate it with her current behavior and "not coming" is not a behavior.... the dog is "not doing" a lot of things at that moment.
posted by HuronBob at 3:25 AM on July 19, 2010
And, as others have said, punishment just won't work in this case.. and, I don't think the shock collar will work well either, the dog will be in the yard, will get a shock, and will associate it with her current behavior and "not coming" is not a behavior.... the dog is "not doing" a lot of things at that moment.
posted by HuronBob at 3:25 AM on July 19, 2010
I've got one reluctant dog, but she's gotten a lot better with the consistent use of cookies. By which I mean if I say "cookie" or shake the jar, there are always cookies. Sometimes, even if I don't promise, there are surprise cookies. Keeps her guessing.
I've accidentally stumbled on a couple of secondary motivators. If the other two dogs come in and I close the door, it usually takes no more than a minute for Sophie to come wait for me to open it again, because now all the fun is inside. This doesn't work if she's tracking a night critter of some sort, but she'll even stop fussing over people in the alley if the other dogs aren't there to bark with her.
Also, I've started sweeping the yard with a flashlight when I can't get someone to come in. I do it because that often means someone's doing their business and I don't want to interrupt, but I guess Sophie thinks that once she's spotted she might as well give up and come in, or maybe she's just disturbed by the flashlight. I don't know, but it will almost always get her to come inside.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:47 AM on July 19, 2010
I've accidentally stumbled on a couple of secondary motivators. If the other two dogs come in and I close the door, it usually takes no more than a minute for Sophie to come wait for me to open it again, because now all the fun is inside. This doesn't work if she's tracking a night critter of some sort, but she'll even stop fussing over people in the alley if the other dogs aren't there to bark with her.
Also, I've started sweeping the yard with a flashlight when I can't get someone to come in. I do it because that often means someone's doing their business and I don't want to interrupt, but I guess Sophie thinks that once she's spotted she might as well give up and come in, or maybe she's just disturbed by the flashlight. I don't know, but it will almost always get her to come inside.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:47 AM on July 19, 2010
One of my dogs is a really slow, shy pooper, so most of the time when he's wandering, he's looking for a place to poop out of sight of humans and other dogs. So make sure you're giving him enough time to poop; the best approach is to get this out of the way first by taking him/them for a walk earlier in the evening, and then let them out to pee right before bed.
I agree with most everyone above that you should lure him back with goodies. If I don't have a cookie with me, I fake having one in my hand while I call him. He's dumb, he'll come back for my cellphone or my keys. He doesn't seem to care if he eventually gets one or not; he'll come every time just in case.
posted by desjardins at 10:07 AM on July 19, 2010
I agree with most everyone above that you should lure him back with goodies. If I don't have a cookie with me, I fake having one in my hand while I call him. He's dumb, he'll come back for my cellphone or my keys. He doesn't seem to care if he eventually gets one or not; he'll come every time just in case.
posted by desjardins at 10:07 AM on July 19, 2010
One of my mom's dogs is just like this, and only recently did the vet mention that she might be partially deaf. You can call and call and call after her to no avail, but if she SEES you waving your arms she usually bounds right over. We always thought it was her just being a pain, but issues with hearing makes a lot of sense in our case. You might want to have the dog's hearing checked to rule this out.
Good luck!
posted by girlalex at 12:38 AM on July 20, 2010
Good luck!
posted by girlalex at 12:38 AM on July 20, 2010
Treat heavily whenever it comes back, no matter how long it took or what it was doing before coming. A dog only understands the feedback for the behaviour it is doing immediately, not the behaviour that it did 3 minutes ago.
You could also practice training sessions with long leads. Let the dog be smelling or eating a very desirable object, call it to come, and when it doesn't come, pull it towards you. When it gets to you, treat it heavily with a way better prize then the one it just left.
Never, ever ever ever, scold a dog for coming back to you.
posted by whalebreath at 10:55 AM on July 21, 2010
You could also practice training sessions with long leads. Let the dog be smelling or eating a very desirable object, call it to come, and when it doesn't come, pull it towards you. When it gets to you, treat it heavily with a way better prize then the one it just left.
Never, ever ever ever, scold a dog for coming back to you.
posted by whalebreath at 10:55 AM on July 21, 2010
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posted by quodlibet at 6:57 PM on July 18, 2010