Should I have let me friend come live with me?
July 8, 2010 9:51 AM Subscribe
Should I be helping my friend who now has no place to live, no car, and a lot of financial debt? Am I being a bad friend?
My friend is in his early 30's and he's your typical struggling artist. Over the past few years I've seen him go into over $60,000 in credit card debt, he's had his car repossessed, and he's been evicted from his apartment. Through out the years, I've helped him move, occasionally paid for meals, a couple times I've driven him to auditions, and I've come to see any shows he's been in. Recently he just broke up with his girlfriend who he was living with after he was evicted from his apartment. I helped him move out of his girlfriend's place and into another friend's apartment. One thing I didn't do was offer to let him stay at my apartment with myself and my fiance. Even though he hasn't said it, I think he's really angry with me that I didn't offer him a place to stay. We are best friends for about the last 5 years. I feel really bad about the whole situation. I didn't offer him a place to stay, because I felt that if he stayed at my place it would be for months with no end in sight. I just don't want that responsibility or invasion of privacy. I also don't want my fiance to have this burden...although she's openly said he could stay with us. Should I have offered him a place to stay? Am I being a bad friend? We still hang out and everything seems cool in our friendship. But I feel guilty about it on a regular basis. I think that if I had more space in my apartment, it wouldn't be such a big deal. I also think that if I knew there was a definite time period to which he needed a place to live before he got his own place, that would be cool. But that's not the case. If he lives with us for a month and hasn't found a place of his own then what? Do I kick my friend out? On the flip side...what are friends for? If you break up with your live in girlfriend and your buddy won't let you sleep on the couch for a couple of months, one might argue that's kind of being a crappy friend. Any thoughts on this situation would be very much appreciated.
My friend is in his early 30's and he's your typical struggling artist. Over the past few years I've seen him go into over $60,000 in credit card debt, he's had his car repossessed, and he's been evicted from his apartment. Through out the years, I've helped him move, occasionally paid for meals, a couple times I've driven him to auditions, and I've come to see any shows he's been in. Recently he just broke up with his girlfriend who he was living with after he was evicted from his apartment. I helped him move out of his girlfriend's place and into another friend's apartment. One thing I didn't do was offer to let him stay at my apartment with myself and my fiance. Even though he hasn't said it, I think he's really angry with me that I didn't offer him a place to stay. We are best friends for about the last 5 years. I feel really bad about the whole situation. I didn't offer him a place to stay, because I felt that if he stayed at my place it would be for months with no end in sight. I just don't want that responsibility or invasion of privacy. I also don't want my fiance to have this burden...although she's openly said he could stay with us. Should I have offered him a place to stay? Am I being a bad friend? We still hang out and everything seems cool in our friendship. But I feel guilty about it on a regular basis. I think that if I had more space in my apartment, it wouldn't be such a big deal. I also think that if I knew there was a definite time period to which he needed a place to live before he got his own place, that would be cool. But that's not the case. If he lives with us for a month and hasn't found a place of his own then what? Do I kick my friend out? On the flip side...what are friends for? If you break up with your live in girlfriend and your buddy won't let you sleep on the couch for a couple of months, one might argue that's kind of being a crappy friend. Any thoughts on this situation would be very much appreciated.
If you break up with your live in girlfriend and your buddy won't let you sleep on the couch for a couple of months, one might argue that's kind of being a crappy friend.
Hi, my name is ThePinkSuperhero, and I'm a crappy friend. I can't think of one of my much-beloved friends I would let sleep on my couch for MONTHS. Providing housing is something parents are required to do for their children; it's not something that friends have to do. I think you made the right decision. There are plenty of ways you can support your friend without having him move into your home and become your financial responsibility. It's not your job to do for him what he can't do for himself. $60k in credit card debt? Good night!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:56 AM on July 8, 2010 [14 favorites]
Hi, my name is ThePinkSuperhero, and I'm a crappy friend. I can't think of one of my much-beloved friends I would let sleep on my couch for MONTHS. Providing housing is something parents are required to do for their children; it's not something that friends have to do. I think you made the right decision. There are plenty of ways you can support your friend without having him move into your home and become your financial responsibility. It's not your job to do for him what he can't do for himself. $60k in credit card debt? Good night!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:56 AM on July 8, 2010 [14 favorites]
You know that you are helping by driving him around and stuff yes? You're a better friend by respecting your boundaries, avoiding resentment building up, and helping as you can.
posted by By The Grace of God at 9:57 AM on July 8, 2010 [7 favorites]
posted by By The Grace of God at 9:57 AM on July 8, 2010 [7 favorites]
Best answer: I think he's really angry with me that I didn't offer him a place to stay.
Once you let a person like this in to live, there's really nothing stopping him from staying indefinitely. His situation isn't liable to change financially if he's been this way for a long time. He'll not suddenly stop needing somewhere to live and he'll still be mad at you for throwing him out.
It's your friend's time to grow up, swallow his pride and work his ass off to get himself out of the hole he's in. The line for struggling artists is crossed when their struggle starts developing into reliance on friends and family for things like a home, food and debt payments. He's past that line and needs to get a job that he can survive on, even if it hurts his ability to create.
posted by Hiker at 10:00 AM on July 8, 2010 [31 favorites]
Once you let a person like this in to live, there's really nothing stopping him from staying indefinitely. His situation isn't liable to change financially if he's been this way for a long time. He'll not suddenly stop needing somewhere to live and he'll still be mad at you for throwing him out.
It's your friend's time to grow up, swallow his pride and work his ass off to get himself out of the hole he's in. The line for struggling artists is crossed when their struggle starts developing into reliance on friends and family for things like a home, food and debt payments. He's past that line and needs to get a job that he can survive on, even if it hurts his ability to create.
posted by Hiker at 10:00 AM on July 8, 2010 [31 favorites]
Best answer: Should I have offered him a place to stay? Am I being a bad friend?
Friendship is sort of bi-directional, or it should be optimally. What do you get from this friendship? Is there an ebb/flow to you helping/supporting each other, or is this guy sort of never on the ball or not providing something to you in some way. There can be lots of flakey artist people who have other terrific friendship qualities, so I'm not saying this guy has no redeeming characteristics, I'm saying that from your post, I don't know what they are. Generally speaking you can be a struggling artist without getting evicted, getting your car repo'ed or getting into 60K worth of debt. This says more than "struggling artist" to me.
I would have a conversation with your fiance about this, about how you'd both feel about this eventuality. It is nice of her to have offered your place, and she may genuinely mean it, but in my personal life having someone's buddy crashing on the couch for some indeterminate amount of time is [or can be] a real drain on a romantic relationship. As you said, this isn't "Hey I need a place to stay for a week before my lease starts" this is "Hey I need a place to stay because I've had a run of bad luck/made a series of bad decisions"
And everyone draws their boundaries in a different way. If you're worried about being a bad friend now, how would you feel when your fiance is asking you to tell the friend to go someplace else and he still doesn't have a place/job/whatever lined up? For me personally, drawing the "where do I help?" line ends at having someone living with me [family excluded] or giving people money. For people who live that close to the edge, I can't be sure they're even going to be able to relate to my boring and routinized lifestyle and I don't want to be someone's social/life skills mentor. Not at this age.
posted by jessamyn at 10:01 AM on July 8, 2010 [10 favorites]
Friendship is sort of bi-directional, or it should be optimally. What do you get from this friendship? Is there an ebb/flow to you helping/supporting each other, or is this guy sort of never on the ball or not providing something to you in some way. There can be lots of flakey artist people who have other terrific friendship qualities, so I'm not saying this guy has no redeeming characteristics, I'm saying that from your post, I don't know what they are. Generally speaking you can be a struggling artist without getting evicted, getting your car repo'ed or getting into 60K worth of debt. This says more than "struggling artist" to me.
I would have a conversation with your fiance about this, about how you'd both feel about this eventuality. It is nice of her to have offered your place, and she may genuinely mean it, but in my personal life having someone's buddy crashing on the couch for some indeterminate amount of time is [or can be] a real drain on a romantic relationship. As you said, this isn't "Hey I need a place to stay for a week before my lease starts" this is "Hey I need a place to stay because I've had a run of bad luck/made a series of bad decisions"
And everyone draws their boundaries in a different way. If you're worried about being a bad friend now, how would you feel when your fiance is asking you to tell the friend to go someplace else and he still doesn't have a place/job/whatever lined up? For me personally, drawing the "where do I help?" line ends at having someone living with me [family excluded] or giving people money. For people who live that close to the edge, I can't be sure they're even going to be able to relate to my boring and routinized lifestyle and I don't want to be someone's social/life skills mentor. Not at this age.
posted by jessamyn at 10:01 AM on July 8, 2010 [10 favorites]
It's his life; he needs to fix it himself. You've helped more than enough already.
posted by Slinga at 10:02 AM on July 8, 2010
posted by Slinga at 10:02 AM on July 8, 2010
We all have limits of what we can give. You are NOT being a bad friend by knowing what YOUR limits are. From the sound of it, your friend doesn't think so, either - and if you really want to clear the air and get rid of your guilt, talk to him about it.
You've made a couple of things clear in your post: one, you're a really self aware person. Two, you're really very kind. You have absolutely considered letting your friend stay with you - and decided against it for very sensible and good reasons. Keep in mind that doing something you're uncomfortable with for an extended period of time with no end in sight would likely put a HUGE strain on your friendship (not to mention your relationship with your fiance).
I suggest you talk with your friend and let him know that you really did want to help him out, but didn't think it was feasible. And that if things go south in his current living arrangement and he needs a place to stay for a month or so while he gets his own place you'd be happy to help him out. That caveat is what's going to help things out here. Put an end date to it, explain your reasons why, and then help him hustle to get things together, if and when it's needed. You're doing what you can, and no more. And in the end, this is your buddy's life - not yours. There's only so much you can or should do for him.
posted by lriG rorriM at 10:02 AM on July 8, 2010
You've made a couple of things clear in your post: one, you're a really self aware person. Two, you're really very kind. You have absolutely considered letting your friend stay with you - and decided against it for very sensible and good reasons. Keep in mind that doing something you're uncomfortable with for an extended period of time with no end in sight would likely put a HUGE strain on your friendship (not to mention your relationship with your fiance).
I suggest you talk with your friend and let him know that you really did want to help him out, but didn't think it was feasible. And that if things go south in his current living arrangement and he needs a place to stay for a month or so while he gets his own place you'd be happy to help him out. That caveat is what's going to help things out here. Put an end date to it, explain your reasons why, and then help him hustle to get things together, if and when it's needed. You're doing what you can, and no more. And in the end, this is your buddy's life - not yours. There's only so much you can or should do for him.
posted by lriG rorriM at 10:02 AM on July 8, 2010
I think you did the right thing. At a certain point, people who are in constant trouble need to face the consequences of their decisions and actions. When you help those people it's less helpful and more enabling. Although taking care of yourself (and your family) first should be a general rule with all people, it is especially important when dealing with people who have a chronic problem managing their own lives.
I would argue that friends are for doing the best thing for, and in this case the best thing is not for you to bail him out, but to help him not suck it up and figure out solutions to his life. If this was a one-time thing where something extraordinary happened, that would be different. But because this is an event in a long series of events causing yourself undue stress and potentially friction between you and your fiance is not part of your responsibility here. Even if it were a special event, a couple of months would be completely unreasonable. (Also, a couple of months would be ridiculous regardless. Maybe a week or two max.)
It's hard to watch the people we care about struggle, but sometimes that's the only way for them to come to the point where they are finally willing to change to make their lives better.
posted by Kimberly at 10:04 AM on July 8, 2010 [3 favorites]
I would argue that friends are for doing the best thing for, and in this case the best thing is not for you to bail him out, but to help him not suck it up and figure out solutions to his life. If this was a one-time thing where something extraordinary happened, that would be different. But because this is an event in a long series of events causing yourself undue stress and potentially friction between you and your fiance is not part of your responsibility here. Even if it were a special event, a couple of months would be completely unreasonable. (Also, a couple of months would be ridiculous regardless. Maybe a week or two max.)
It's hard to watch the people we care about struggle, but sometimes that's the only way for them to come to the point where they are finally willing to change to make their lives better.
posted by Kimberly at 10:04 AM on July 8, 2010 [3 favorites]
Should I be helping my friend who now has no place to live, no car, and a lot of financial debt?
Unless you are directly responsible for his current situation (and your post clearly states that you are not) then no, you should not be helping. Actually, letting him crash with you would do more harm than good - for both of you. But you already know that.
Your friend has fucked up repeatedly - all by himself - and being angry with you for not bailing him out makes me question how much of a friend he really is to you.
posted by futureisunwritten at 10:29 AM on July 8, 2010 [2 favorites]
Unless you are directly responsible for his current situation (and your post clearly states that you are not) then no, you should not be helping. Actually, letting him crash with you would do more harm than good - for both of you. But you already know that.
Your friend has fucked up repeatedly - all by himself - and being angry with you for not bailing him out makes me question how much of a friend he really is to you.
posted by futureisunwritten at 10:29 AM on July 8, 2010 [2 favorites]
I've noticed that some people with problems like this tend to have what I refer to as an "entitlement complex." That is, so many well meaning people have helped for so long that on some level The Struggling Person expects someone to save them. And when the time comes that help isn't offered in the desired form, The Struggler gets mad that "no one's there for them."
It's a weird dynamic but you shouldn't feel guilty about not giving The Struggler everything they need/want because your role as a friend isn't to enable, it's to help. Sometimes it takes that fall to rock bottom, e.g., homelessness, debt, no vehicle, etc. to "help," to force them to do what they should have done in the first place (get a crappy McJob, take public transportation, limit credit card usage, etc.).
posted by December at 10:31 AM on July 8, 2010 [13 favorites]
It's a weird dynamic but you shouldn't feel guilty about not giving The Struggler everything they need/want because your role as a friend isn't to enable, it's to help. Sometimes it takes that fall to rock bottom, e.g., homelessness, debt, no vehicle, etc. to "help," to force them to do what they should have done in the first place (get a crappy McJob, take public transportation, limit credit card usage, etc.).
posted by December at 10:31 AM on July 8, 2010 [13 favorites]
You know him. Is he the kind of person who will take an offer of a couch to crash on for X amount of time, and use that time to find another place to stay? Does he keep his word? Does he do what he says he'll do when he says he'll do it by? From what you've written, it doesn't sound like you think so, at least when it comes to something like this.
This is not being a crappy friend. This is having boundaries, and those are good. If you can think of other, small ways to help him out, that's great, but you don't have to let him stay with you, especially if you think it will be an indefinite kind of thing.
posted by rtha at 10:40 AM on July 8, 2010 [2 favorites]
This is not being a crappy friend. This is having boundaries, and those are good. If you can think of other, small ways to help him out, that's great, but you don't have to let him stay with you, especially if you think it will be an indefinite kind of thing.
posted by rtha at 10:40 AM on July 8, 2010 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Over the years, I have been approached by a fair number of panhandlers, especially at places of travel, and they've all had one story or another. I tend to listen patiently and then say I can't help them and keep walking. More than once it's occurred to me that the possibility - but not the certainty - exists that at least one of them has been telling the truth, and really did just need money to get home after being mugged. But honestly, that doesn't change how I would deal with them when they approach me.
My point is that there certainly exists the chance that your friend is one of those rare few who would ask to crash on your couch just for a week or two and then actually do it, but it's about the same as the chance that a random panhandler really was mugged and just wants to get home to their nice cozy apartment. In other words, so close to zero as makes no difference.
Look, people like this, they get by this way. Whether they realize they're doing it or not, they take advantage of the guilt and good nature of others. I've seen this happen enough times that I can guarantee the following: If you allow him to stay on your couch for two weeks, it will turn into a month, and a month will turn into several, and each time the deadline approaches he'll have a seemingly convincing reason why you shouldn't kick him out.
I'm not saying your friend's a bad guy. Like I said, he may or may not even realize he's doing it. But you've described a clear pattern of running away from responsibility and relying on others to be his safety net. Being a struggling artist is tough, but the dude needs a day job, or a degree to fall back on. If he's in his early thirties and his life is an endless parade of repossessions and evictions, then honestly he needs to learn this lesson as soon as possible. If you help him escape the consequences of his behavior patterns yet again, you're only allowing him to avoid growing up, and he needs to grow up. Being mad at you for not unconditionally allowing him access to the home (and, I assume, food and whatnot) that you and your fiancee have worked for - this suggests that he views his misfortune as everyone's problem but his own. If you want to help, then don't be a party to it. I know it's hard, and he may even throw a huge fit because of it, but it doesn't mean you're being a bad friend. It means, again, that he needs to grow up. There is really nothing else going on here but that.
Altogether, this reminds me of a joke:
Q. What do you call a drummer without a girlfriend?
A. Homeless.
Don't be the drummer's girlfriend.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 10:42 AM on July 8, 2010 [9 favorites]
My point is that there certainly exists the chance that your friend is one of those rare few who would ask to crash on your couch just for a week or two and then actually do it, but it's about the same as the chance that a random panhandler really was mugged and just wants to get home to their nice cozy apartment. In other words, so close to zero as makes no difference.
Look, people like this, they get by this way. Whether they realize they're doing it or not, they take advantage of the guilt and good nature of others. I've seen this happen enough times that I can guarantee the following: If you allow him to stay on your couch for two weeks, it will turn into a month, and a month will turn into several, and each time the deadline approaches he'll have a seemingly convincing reason why you shouldn't kick him out.
I'm not saying your friend's a bad guy. Like I said, he may or may not even realize he's doing it. But you've described a clear pattern of running away from responsibility and relying on others to be his safety net. Being a struggling artist is tough, but the dude needs a day job, or a degree to fall back on. If he's in his early thirties and his life is an endless parade of repossessions and evictions, then honestly he needs to learn this lesson as soon as possible. If you help him escape the consequences of his behavior patterns yet again, you're only allowing him to avoid growing up, and he needs to grow up. Being mad at you for not unconditionally allowing him access to the home (and, I assume, food and whatnot) that you and your fiancee have worked for - this suggests that he views his misfortune as everyone's problem but his own. If you want to help, then don't be a party to it. I know it's hard, and he may even throw a huge fit because of it, but it doesn't mean you're being a bad friend. It means, again, that he needs to grow up. There is really nothing else going on here but that.
Altogether, this reminds me of a joke:
Q. What do you call a drummer without a girlfriend?
A. Homeless.
Don't be the drummer's girlfriend.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 10:42 AM on July 8, 2010 [9 favorites]
Ok, I'm going to be harsh.
I guess other responses here say you've done enough, but I really didn't read anything in your post that I wouldn't do for people who are just normal friends, let alone best friends. If I call someone my best friend, I guess I'm a stickler for the term, I would go the extra mile for them. I would let them stay in my house FOR A DEFINED PERIOD unless they were a drug addict or rapist, etc--something that is beyond my ability to handle.
If I absolutely could not let them stay with me, I'd offer to write them a check as a gift to help them through rocky times, no strings attached, though with a caution that you don't want to see them in this position ever again, and learning some business skills to go with his artistic talents are in order.
This is what I believe best friends are for.
You are certainly not a bad person by any means if you don't do this, but I think the term "best friend" would not be what I'd call your relationship with him. I'm sure I'll get flak for this, but you cannot be best friends with someone you can't trust to hold up their end of the bargain. You cannot be best friends with someone who you turn away from your house.
posted by The ____ of Justice at 10:44 AM on July 8, 2010 [1 favorite]
I guess other responses here say you've done enough, but I really didn't read anything in your post that I wouldn't do for people who are just normal friends, let alone best friends. If I call someone my best friend, I guess I'm a stickler for the term, I would go the extra mile for them. I would let them stay in my house FOR A DEFINED PERIOD unless they were a drug addict or rapist, etc--something that is beyond my ability to handle.
If I absolutely could not let them stay with me, I'd offer to write them a check as a gift to help them through rocky times, no strings attached, though with a caution that you don't want to see them in this position ever again, and learning some business skills to go with his artistic talents are in order.
This is what I believe best friends are for.
You are certainly not a bad person by any means if you don't do this, but I think the term "best friend" would not be what I'd call your relationship with him. I'm sure I'll get flak for this, but you cannot be best friends with someone you can't trust to hold up their end of the bargain. You cannot be best friends with someone who you turn away from your house.
posted by The ____ of Justice at 10:44 AM on July 8, 2010 [1 favorite]
It sounds likely that inviting him to stay with you and your fiance would kill the friendship and poison relations with your fiance. Don't do it.
Also, (and this is just me overlaying my personal findings on your situation) many starving artists possess a kind of narcissism. They need it to stay motivated and enthusiastic about their work but it often devolves into,"the world owes me a living and it doesn't seem fair that my peer can have a nice relationship and nice stuff" and they can fail to show proper respect for the property and personal space of us people who work long hours to pay our bills.
posted by bonobothegreat at 10:46 AM on July 8, 2010 [5 favorites]
Also, (and this is just me overlaying my personal findings on your situation) many starving artists possess a kind of narcissism. They need it to stay motivated and enthusiastic about their work but it often devolves into,"the world owes me a living and it doesn't seem fair that my peer can have a nice relationship and nice stuff" and they can fail to show proper respect for the property and personal space of us people who work long hours to pay our bills.
posted by bonobothegreat at 10:46 AM on July 8, 2010 [5 favorites]
For all the people who are saying that he should let his friend crash for a defined period of time: What the hell is the OP supposed to do when the time is up? Drop his friend's stuff on the porch and leave the house for the weekend? This friend has no other prospects. If the OP lets him mooch now then when he does draw the line the friend will pull all kinds of BS and try to stay, probably with heaps of steaming guilt.
For the OP: I think you are being reasonable, responsible, and sane. You are feeling guilty because you are a good person and you care about your friend. But you're just a friend. You are not this person's parent, you are not their life partner. It is their own responsibility as a thirty-something adult to find their own housing.
Continue to help in ways that you feel able. Having your friend stay with you is not one of the ways that you're able. End of discussion.
posted by TooFewShoes at 10:53 AM on July 8, 2010 [2 favorites]
For the OP: I think you are being reasonable, responsible, and sane. You are feeling guilty because you are a good person and you care about your friend. But you're just a friend. You are not this person's parent, you are not their life partner. It is their own responsibility as a thirty-something adult to find their own housing.
Continue to help in ways that you feel able. Having your friend stay with you is not one of the ways that you're able. End of discussion.
posted by TooFewShoes at 10:53 AM on July 8, 2010 [2 favorites]
That the lack of an offer made him angry suggests a certain sense of entitlement that corresponds with his overall history, i.e. a sense that other people should be supporting him.
While I'd let some people stay at my place for a short amount of time in an emergency, he really sounds like the sort who would install himself until forced to move on.
Don't feel bad about not enabling him. Sounds like this guy needs some tough love to take responsibility for his own affairs - you're being a good friend by forcing him to deal with his own problems.
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 10:55 AM on July 8, 2010 [2 favorites]
While I'd let some people stay at my place for a short amount of time in an emergency, he really sounds like the sort who would install himself until forced to move on.
Don't feel bad about not enabling him. Sounds like this guy needs some tough love to take responsibility for his own affairs - you're being a good friend by forcing him to deal with his own problems.
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 10:55 AM on July 8, 2010 [2 favorites]
For all the people who are saying that he should let his friend crash for a defined period of time: What the hell is the OP supposed to do when the time is up?
Well I don't know about anyone else, but a BEST friend is good for his or her word.
If the OP doesn't believe the friend will leave on his own volition, I think he needs to understand what he has here is not a best friend relationship, but an unbalanced relationship, and come to terms with the fact they are not really best friends at all.
posted by The ____ of Justice at 11:04 AM on July 8, 2010
If the OP doesn't believe the friend will leave on his own volition, I think he needs to understand what he has here is not a best friend relationship, but an unbalanced relationship, and come to terms with the fact they are not really best friends at all.
Friendship for me requires both honesty and respect: to me this means being aware of someone's flaws and understanding them for what they are (in this case that the person is terrible with money and is kind of a mooch). But that is what is important to me, and my criteria for what would be a best-friends relationship; the italicized part is yours.
And the OP has his own as well, and he describes that person as his best friend. Everyone has their own ideas as to what they value and what is important to them.
You can be a stickler for the term all you like, but it may help to realize that your definition may not perfectly align with everyone else's, and adjust your advice for the OP accordingly. And to be honest, the advice you gave above - let them in for a certain amount of time in the absence of a problem which is beyond your ability to handle - is as sound as any. The person in question appears to have entitlement issues which, if they aren't beyond the OP's ability to handle, probably would be before terribly long.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 11:18 AM on July 8, 2010
Friendship for me requires both honesty and respect: to me this means being aware of someone's flaws and understanding them for what they are (in this case that the person is terrible with money and is kind of a mooch). But that is what is important to me, and my criteria for what would be a best-friends relationship; the italicized part is yours.
And the OP has his own as well, and he describes that person as his best friend. Everyone has their own ideas as to what they value and what is important to them.
You can be a stickler for the term all you like, but it may help to realize that your definition may not perfectly align with everyone else's, and adjust your advice for the OP accordingly. And to be honest, the advice you gave above - let them in for a certain amount of time in the absence of a problem which is beyond your ability to handle - is as sound as any. The person in question appears to have entitlement issues which, if they aren't beyond the OP's ability to handle, probably would be before terribly long.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 11:18 AM on July 8, 2010
I'll echo that 'a typical struggling artist' doesn't have $60k of credit card debt. How did he rack that up? If he racked it up financing a solo tour, building sculptures, starting his own small printing press, or something that actually served ART then I would say that that might be 'honorable' debt, but every struggling artist I know has a job. they bitch about it non stop, but they have a crappy job that pays the bills until they get on their feet.
What you have is a slacker.
I disagree that best friends let their friends run roughshod over them no matter what. I completely and totally disagree. That is not part of the bargain. You are not on the line to let your best friend move into your house for an unlimited period of time because dude is still FINDING HIMSELF. No. I completely, totally disagree. This isn't some bromance TV show where the lovable bum sleeps on your couch but teaches you a lesson about love and humility every night. This guy is a serial freeloader.
posted by micawber at 11:20 AM on July 8, 2010 [12 favorites]
What you have is a slacker.
I disagree that best friends let their friends run roughshod over them no matter what. I completely and totally disagree. That is not part of the bargain. You are not on the line to let your best friend move into your house for an unlimited period of time because dude is still FINDING HIMSELF. No. I completely, totally disagree. This isn't some bromance TV show where the lovable bum sleeps on your couch but teaches you a lesson about love and humility every night. This guy is a serial freeloader.
posted by micawber at 11:20 AM on July 8, 2010 [12 favorites]
My best friend and I have crashed on each other's couches for months at a time when one of us was between jobs and apartments. And at the end of it, when she or I moved into a new place, we were a little sad because living together is so much fun, even if there isn't enough closet space. If she is someday displaced again in the future she wouldn't even need to ask before bringing her stuff to my apartment to stay indefinitely. But it doesn't sound like you and your best friend have that kind of relationship. If you anticipate his potential stay as a burden rather than a pleasure, then don't add to your friend's problems by inviting him over and then ruining your friendship with resentment. Then at the end of it he'd be homeless and down a best friend.
On the flip side, if your main concern is when/how he'd move out if you let him stay with you, do you know his other friends well enough to work out a schedule with them? Could you arrange things among a group of friends so he can stay with you after a few weeks with the friend he's crashing with now, and then have another place he could go in another month set up in advance if he still hasn't found a home of his own? Having a definite end-date and plan for his next move would probably make it less stressful for you if you and your fiance do decide to offer him your couch.
posted by unsub at 11:31 AM on July 8, 2010
On the flip side, if your main concern is when/how he'd move out if you let him stay with you, do you know his other friends well enough to work out a schedule with them? Could you arrange things among a group of friends so he can stay with you after a few weeks with the friend he's crashing with now, and then have another place he could go in another month set up in advance if he still hasn't found a home of his own? Having a definite end-date and plan for his next move would probably make it less stressful for you if you and your fiance do decide to offer him your couch.
posted by unsub at 11:31 AM on July 8, 2010
> You cannot be best friends with someone who you turn away from your house.
OK, I wasn't going to comment, since I would basically be saying "what everybody else said," but I have to counter this bullshit. Don't add to the poster's unmerited guilt. The poster has gone above and beyond the call of duty, and he is not turning anyone away from his house, he is trying to avoid getting into an impossible situation. I guarantee the friend is not going to go away at the end of a stated period. Now, you may feel this means the friend is not a "best friend," but your opinion about what constitutes a "best friend" is utterly irrelevant here. The poster is feeling guilty over not being a complete patsy (a/k/a drummer's girlfriend), and there is no reason for that. The poster is a good friend; if the homeless guy is actually angry over not being able to use the poster as a free bed-and-breakfast until he hits the big time, let's hope it's just a temporary effect of the breakup and he will come to realize he was being a dick.
To the poster: you are not being a bad friend, you are taking care of yourself and your fiancee. Good for you.
posted by languagehat at 11:36 AM on July 8, 2010 [10 favorites]
OK, I wasn't going to comment, since I would basically be saying "what everybody else said," but I have to counter this bullshit. Don't add to the poster's unmerited guilt. The poster has gone above and beyond the call of duty, and he is not turning anyone away from his house, he is trying to avoid getting into an impossible situation. I guarantee the friend is not going to go away at the end of a stated period. Now, you may feel this means the friend is not a "best friend," but your opinion about what constitutes a "best friend" is utterly irrelevant here. The poster is feeling guilty over not being a complete patsy (a/k/a drummer's girlfriend), and there is no reason for that. The poster is a good friend; if the homeless guy is actually angry over not being able to use the poster as a free bed-and-breakfast until he hits the big time, let's hope it's just a temporary effect of the breakup and he will come to realize he was being a dick.
To the poster: you are not being a bad friend, you are taking care of yourself and your fiancee. Good for you.
posted by languagehat at 11:36 AM on July 8, 2010 [10 favorites]
I will back out now just saying thanks for the counter-arguments to my "best friend" definition. I guess I just come from a different background where the "best friend" terminology is taken extremely seriously, and people will actually sell THEIR OWN HOUSE if their best friend is in need. I guess I am used to not hearing the term bandied about lightly, but languagehat and others, you are right--his own personal definition of best friend is what counts.
I never meant to imply in any of this that the OP is a bad friend or a bad person, far from it.
posted by The ____ of Justice at 11:53 AM on July 8, 2010
I never meant to imply in any of this that the OP is a bad friend or a bad person, far from it.
posted by The ____ of Justice at 11:53 AM on July 8, 2010
There are friends I would take care of and there are friends I wouldn't. If you don't feel like it, don't make yourself do it. What has he done for you that hasn't been repaid?
posted by anniecat at 11:58 AM on July 8, 2010
posted by anniecat at 11:58 AM on July 8, 2010
You know him. Is he the kind of person who will take an offer of a couch to crash on for X amount of time, and use that time to find another place to stay? Does he keep his word? Does he do what he says he'll do when he says he'll do it by? From what you've written, it doesn't sound like you think so, at least when it comes to something like this.
Yes. This.
From what it sounds like, he's not down on his luck at this particular point in his life, he's just an irresponsible person. $60k in credit card debt!? How does that HAPPEN!? I have a feeling (and this is JUST A FEELING from the few details you gave us) that he's the type that would take advantage of your offer to help. He probably wouldn't "get it together" by any certain date you set, and he certainly never would otherwise. You need to put your foot down. In fact, if you really are his "best friend", it's intervention time. Gather some mutual friends or have a man-to-man talk about how concerned you are. Either way, he's not getting the message that his current lifestyle isn't going to work out much longer, and he needs something to push him into changing.
posted by two lights above the sea at 12:07 PM on July 8, 2010
Yes. This.
From what it sounds like, he's not down on his luck at this particular point in his life, he's just an irresponsible person. $60k in credit card debt!? How does that HAPPEN!? I have a feeling (and this is JUST A FEELING from the few details you gave us) that he's the type that would take advantage of your offer to help. He probably wouldn't "get it together" by any certain date you set, and he certainly never would otherwise. You need to put your foot down. In fact, if you really are his "best friend", it's intervention time. Gather some mutual friends or have a man-to-man talk about how concerned you are. Either way, he's not getting the message that his current lifestyle isn't going to work out much longer, and he needs something to push him into changing.
posted by two lights above the sea at 12:07 PM on July 8, 2010
Being best friends should work two-ways. He should respect your privacy and life with your fiance as you respect him. I would be concerned that once he is in your place it will not be an easy thing to get him to move. At his age he should suck it up, go to his parents, get a job and appreciate all the things that you do already. I can just see how having him in your place for an indefinite time could be very bad for you. And how would you get the courage to get him to move on. It is much easier not to let it get started.
posted by JayRwv at 12:12 PM on July 8, 2010
posted by JayRwv at 12:12 PM on July 8, 2010
I guess I just come from a different background where the "best friend" terminology is taken extremely seriously
I went through a period in my early 20s when I was unproductive, unmotivated, depressed, and mooching off friends. My best friend carried me for months. The most loving, constructive thing she did for me (and for our friendship) was to call my mom and tell her I was in trouble. We are still friends, 20 years later. Sometimes real help looks really unhelpful or selfish from the outside. Her continuing to give me a place to stay would not have been helpful.
All of this is really, really dependent on your relationship, your ages, your place in life, your history. You know yourself, you know your friend. Do the best you can.
posted by rtha at 12:18 PM on July 8, 2010 [4 favorites]
I went through a period in my early 20s when I was unproductive, unmotivated, depressed, and mooching off friends. My best friend carried me for months. The most loving, constructive thing she did for me (and for our friendship) was to call my mom and tell her I was in trouble. We are still friends, 20 years later. Sometimes real help looks really unhelpful or selfish from the outside. Her continuing to give me a place to stay would not have been helpful.
All of this is really, really dependent on your relationship, your ages, your place in life, your history. You know yourself, you know your friend. Do the best you can.
posted by rtha at 12:18 PM on July 8, 2010 [4 favorites]
Hmm. I mean, I guess I'm in this situation? If I got dumped tomorrow, I would be broke and either be going across the country to live with my mom or staying here, sleeping on my best friend's couch. I know my best friend would take me in. But I would want to have a talk about boundaries and expectations and stuff beforehand, and I'd be super careful with listening to my best friend's requests. Also my best friend knows I'd listen to what she needed, and we could trust each other and have a good time, mostly, even if it was a little tight.
And that's good, because otherwise then I'd be, you know, homeless.
posted by RJ Reynolds at 12:20 PM on July 8, 2010 [1 favorite]
And that's good, because otherwise then I'd be, you know, homeless.
posted by RJ Reynolds at 12:20 PM on July 8, 2010 [1 favorite]
Chiming in to say this sounds like a cultural issue. I would under no circumstances say no to a 'best friend' who needed a place to stay. If I said no, I would realize that I lost the privilege of calling this person my 'best friend.' I can't think of any of my closest friends who have not lived with me for free, for months, when they needed to. Generally in the U.S., this is not the norm. Friendship here has stronger boundaries, and seems to be based more on self-interest (for the positive and the negative.)
Anecdata: I had one old friend deny me a place to stay once, and I cut off contact with that person permanently, because that kind of boundary does not jive with my definition of friendship. I was not trying to be a jerk...I simply no longer felt that this person truly had my back, and I don't need to call people like that my friend. Also, I once said no to a friend who needed a place to stay (out of selfishness for my space and privacy), and I believe it is the only truly loathsome thing I have ever done. (I recently found out that this kind, resourceful person is honest-to-goodness currently living in a homeless shelter.) I know this might sound extreme, but this is my personal answer to the question, and a valid viewpoint. Good luck to you both.
posted by wondershrew with a helping of potato salad at 12:21 PM on July 8, 2010 [1 favorite]
Anecdata: I had one old friend deny me a place to stay once, and I cut off contact with that person permanently, because that kind of boundary does not jive with my definition of friendship. I was not trying to be a jerk...I simply no longer felt that this person truly had my back, and I don't need to call people like that my friend. Also, I once said no to a friend who needed a place to stay (out of selfishness for my space and privacy), and I believe it is the only truly loathsome thing I have ever done. (I recently found out that this kind, resourceful person is honest-to-goodness currently living in a homeless shelter.) I know this might sound extreme, but this is my personal answer to the question, and a valid viewpoint. Good luck to you both.
posted by wondershrew with a helping of potato salad at 12:21 PM on July 8, 2010 [1 favorite]
One last thing. This expectation of being able to rely on family is somewhat presumptuous. Not everyone has family who wants or can help in a situation like this. Many familial situations are far more dire than even that (abusive situations, etc.) The people I have known who needed this kind of help rarely had supportive relationships with their families.
posted by wondershrew with a helping of potato salad at 12:27 PM on July 8, 2010
posted by wondershrew with a helping of potato salad at 12:27 PM on July 8, 2010
First you say: I think he's really angry with me that I didn't offer him a place to stay and then you say: We still hang out and everything seems cool in our friendship. This leaves me wondering whether the emotional issue is between the two of you, or is entirely internal. If he's acting kind of weird, there could be a number of reasons for that, particularly in this situation, that have nothing to do with you.
It could be that you're reading his behavior as being angry because you're feeling guilty. Personally, I don't think you have anything to feel guilty about - your friend has a place to live, you haven't withdrawn emotional support, you are being realistic about the extent to which you can support a friend who has demonstrated that he doesn't really have good self-supporting skills.
If you're worried about how your friend is feeling, talk to him about it. Knowing whether or not he's angry about the situation will be less exhausting than beating yourself up about it.
posted by EvaDestruction at 12:45 PM on July 8, 2010
It could be that you're reading his behavior as being angry because you're feeling guilty. Personally, I don't think you have anything to feel guilty about - your friend has a place to live, you haven't withdrawn emotional support, you are being realistic about the extent to which you can support a friend who has demonstrated that he doesn't really have good self-supporting skills.
If you're worried about how your friend is feeling, talk to him about it. Knowing whether or not he's angry about the situation will be less exhausting than beating yourself up about it.
posted by EvaDestruction at 12:45 PM on July 8, 2010
I think you very correctly did the things that let you keep being his best friend, and if you had done more you most likely would not be. Rather like lending money to relatives - bad idea!
posted by meepmeow at 12:54 PM on July 8, 2010
posted by meepmeow at 12:54 PM on July 8, 2010
Also, in my experience, living with friends can very quickly cause all sorts of dynamics to change in the relationship. I've lost more than one friendship by making friends roomates. This situation seems really like it could go down that path fast. Something else to consider..I'm not sure what the laws are where you live, but where I am, if you let someone live with you a certain period of time, you can't just kick them out, I think you must go through an eviction process with the court.
posted by heatherly at 2:01 PM on July 8, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by heatherly at 2:01 PM on July 8, 2010 [1 favorite]
Sometimes being a real friend means letting someone reap the consequences of their behavior. This man needs to come to grips with the fact that he needs to be able to support himself, period. If people keep bailing him out, he'll be older and still in the same sort of situation.
If this man is taking active steps-say, to obtain employment, to find his own place (or a room to rent from someone, close enough) and to do what he needs to do to crawl out of his hole, feel free to help him however you feel able. But you are not obligated to take him into your home, and if you feel uneasy there's a reason for that. But just because he's an "artist" does not give him a pass to be a burden to anyone. Many artists create after their day jobs. There's even a bumper sticker out there that says "real musicians have day jobs."
Don't feel guiilty.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 2:01 PM on July 8, 2010
If this man is taking active steps-say, to obtain employment, to find his own place (or a room to rent from someone, close enough) and to do what he needs to do to crawl out of his hole, feel free to help him however you feel able. But you are not obligated to take him into your home, and if you feel uneasy there's a reason for that. But just because he's an "artist" does not give him a pass to be a burden to anyone. Many artists create after their day jobs. There's even a bumper sticker out there that says "real musicians have day jobs."
Don't feel guiilty.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 2:01 PM on July 8, 2010
You're actually doing all you can to preserve your friendship. The alternative you're contemplating is not being a good friend, but becoming a doormat, which would subsequently end the friendship as you know it anyway...and render your current concerns moot. Carry on.
posted by the foreground at 2:02 PM on July 8, 2010
posted by the foreground at 2:02 PM on July 8, 2010
My wife and I have been the "good friend" a couple times in the last year, but both times ended a bit awkwardly because we didn't set an end date on either situation. We have a little place, less than 1,000 square feet, but with two bedrooms and two bathrooms.
First, we had a friend stay who was out of work and bummed out on life. We invited him to stay with us, with the idea it would be temporary, but without any structured limits. We paid for his travel to our place, and then didn't charge any rent or ask for any assistance. It was fun at first, but a month into it, he wasn't trying to get out and find work, and we wanted our little place to ourselves. In the end, he had to leave for other reasons, and hasn't been back (he isn't near enough to make travel between there and hear easy, cheap or quick). The second time was a couple who were going to be in the area for a few months. As of now, it's been about a year, and they still have a few months to finish up their work in this town. They left because we asked them to. We didn't learn from the first time, and welcomed them in with open arms and without a limit on how long they'd be with us. They cooked and cleaned, which made their stay better, but it still got to be a bit of tight quarters.
In short: inviting a friend, even a best friend, into a shared living space requires a plan if it's going to work. Even if the friend can't pay for rent or utilities, they should help out somehow, and understand you and your fiance want your own space. But if your friend is someone who would never leave, then your friendship will do best if your friend doesn't stay with you. It may feel like you're being a jerk, but you're already living with someone else, and you're still seeing your friend on friendly terms.
posted by filthy light thief at 2:49 PM on July 8, 2010
First, we had a friend stay who was out of work and bummed out on life. We invited him to stay with us, with the idea it would be temporary, but without any structured limits. We paid for his travel to our place, and then didn't charge any rent or ask for any assistance. It was fun at first, but a month into it, he wasn't trying to get out and find work, and we wanted our little place to ourselves. In the end, he had to leave for other reasons, and hasn't been back (he isn't near enough to make travel between there and hear easy, cheap or quick). The second time was a couple who were going to be in the area for a few months. As of now, it's been about a year, and they still have a few months to finish up their work in this town. They left because we asked them to. We didn't learn from the first time, and welcomed them in with open arms and without a limit on how long they'd be with us. They cooked and cleaned, which made their stay better, but it still got to be a bit of tight quarters.
In short: inviting a friend, even a best friend, into a shared living space requires a plan if it's going to work. Even if the friend can't pay for rent or utilities, they should help out somehow, and understand you and your fiance want your own space. But if your friend is someone who would never leave, then your friendship will do best if your friend doesn't stay with you. It may feel like you're being a jerk, but you're already living with someone else, and you're still seeing your friend on friendly terms.
posted by filthy light thief at 2:49 PM on July 8, 2010
Personally, I think you wasting a weekly question on this person is going above and beyond the call of duty of this friendship.
He isn't your best friend. If you are getting the impression that he is angry you haven't offered him accommodation and can't talk about it, he isn't your best friend. And you aren't his.
My (two) best friends and I would have no trouble at all discussing this.
"Look, I've been evicted/kicked out, can I stay at your place?".
"Oh, don't ask me this: I've haven't got enough room and I really don't like having houseguests as you know. You can stay for a couple of nights, but you'd need to be arranging something else pronto before we start to hate each other!"
Friendship continues as before. But we work sucky jobs to pay bills, to keep a roof over our heads, etc. No-one ever gave us a free ride and so we don't expect one now. I suspect your friend's MMV.
(And I'd love to know if his girlfriend kicked him out because she was sick of him bludging.)
posted by malibustacey9999 at 4:10 PM on July 8, 2010 [1 favorite]
He isn't your best friend. If you are getting the impression that he is angry you haven't offered him accommodation and can't talk about it, he isn't your best friend. And you aren't his.
My (two) best friends and I would have no trouble at all discussing this.
"Look, I've been evicted/kicked out, can I stay at your place?".
"Oh, don't ask me this: I've haven't got enough room and I really don't like having houseguests as you know. You can stay for a couple of nights, but you'd need to be arranging something else pronto before we start to hate each other!"
Friendship continues as before. But we work sucky jobs to pay bills, to keep a roof over our heads, etc. No-one ever gave us a free ride and so we don't expect one now. I suspect your friend's MMV.
(And I'd love to know if his girlfriend kicked him out because she was sick of him bludging.)
posted by malibustacey9999 at 4:10 PM on July 8, 2010 [1 favorite]
There's taking care of your best friend, and then there's well, shiftless freeloaders who refuse to take care of themselves, which this guy is totally doing. You know very well that if this guy moves in, he won't be leaving, plus it'll hurt your relationship with your fiance big time. Do not feel guilty about not letting him move in, because you know it'd be permanent.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:18 PM on July 8, 2010
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:18 PM on July 8, 2010
I think if you're single and have space, I could see feeling obligated to take in a best friend. But it's totally different if you're in a relationship - unless you *both* consider this to be a fine idea, I think you've got to put your partner first. I have many dear friends whom I would happily have allowed to stay with me indefinitely while I was single, but my husband would not be thrilled if I made such an offer to them now.
posted by little light-giver at 6:25 PM on July 8, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by little light-giver at 6:25 PM on July 8, 2010 [1 favorite]
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