So this law, it's eternal?
July 7, 2010 1:14 PM Subscribe
It's the third largest religion in the world, and I don't know a darn thing about it.
It occurred to me recently that I don't know anything about Hinduism. I realize that I can't expect to learn too much about such an ancient religion and culture merely by studying it casually, but I can certainly learn a bit more than I know now. I also realize that its fantastically diverse. Nevertheless, can y'all recommend some places to get my feet wet?
For one thing, where around Chicago could an interested (but atheist) observer be welcome? And are there specific ceremonies that would be both acceptable to observe and also interesting to watch? I've observed a lot of Christian ceremony, and people mostly seem genuinely happy to have me there, even if I'm not participating (even if my atheism is respectfully explicit, in a few cases). Is this likely to be true in Chicago Hindu circles, as well?
For another, what fiction should I read? I've recently been on a (mostly unintentional) Islam kick, reading The Taqwacores and Persepolis. I got a lot out ofThe Satanic Verses a while back, as well. I think what I like about these novels is that while they are all highly critical of Islam they come are also highly committed to it (well, committed to the culture, in Rushdie's case, not the religion so much). Perhaps there are hard core folks that wouldn't count Michael Muhammad Knight or Marjane Satrapi as "true Muslims", but they certainly identify that way themselves. And I felt a real love for Islam come through, even from Rushdie.
Reading those novels, I felt that I got some sense of what Islam is like for devout (but progressive) Muslims. Can you recommend similar novels that would give me some perspective on modern Hinduism?
And yes, I realize that plenty of folks wold be more than a little upset that I learned about Islam from those three books in particular but I feel like I got a better sense of the religion via its loving critics than I would have from fundamentalist sources. Then again, if there's a more orthodox Hindu source (or a Muslim one, for that matter) that would really help me understand, please let me know about that too.
It occurred to me recently that I don't know anything about Hinduism. I realize that I can't expect to learn too much about such an ancient religion and culture merely by studying it casually, but I can certainly learn a bit more than I know now. I also realize that its fantastically diverse. Nevertheless, can y'all recommend some places to get my feet wet?
For one thing, where around Chicago could an interested (but atheist) observer be welcome? And are there specific ceremonies that would be both acceptable to observe and also interesting to watch? I've observed a lot of Christian ceremony, and people mostly seem genuinely happy to have me there, even if I'm not participating (even if my atheism is respectfully explicit, in a few cases). Is this likely to be true in Chicago Hindu circles, as well?
For another, what fiction should I read? I've recently been on a (mostly unintentional) Islam kick, reading The Taqwacores and Persepolis. I got a lot out ofThe Satanic Verses a while back, as well. I think what I like about these novels is that while they are all highly critical of Islam they come are also highly committed to it (well, committed to the culture, in Rushdie's case, not the religion so much). Perhaps there are hard core folks that wouldn't count Michael Muhammad Knight or Marjane Satrapi as "true Muslims", but they certainly identify that way themselves. And I felt a real love for Islam come through, even from Rushdie.
Reading those novels, I felt that I got some sense of what Islam is like for devout (but progressive) Muslims. Can you recommend similar novels that would give me some perspective on modern Hinduism?
And yes, I realize that plenty of folks wold be more than a little upset that I learned about Islam from those three books in particular but I feel like I got a better sense of the religion via its loving critics than I would have from fundamentalist sources. Then again, if there's a more orthodox Hindu source (or a Muslim one, for that matter) that would really help me understand, please let me know about that too.
Hinduism is mostly not about beliefs or dogma. One academic called is orthopaxic --- what matters is if you do the right stuff
The Hindu Temple Of Greater Chicago is the biggest, busiest mainstream temple and is in Lemont. There are other temples in Aurora and Bartlett. The Bartlett one is beautiful, but is run by BAPS, a super conservative non-mainstream somewhat cult-like group.
Generally, in Hindu temples, you just walk about and do your own thing. There's not usually a service, except for 5-minute impromptu things in front of the idols (murtis) or some chanting in Sanskrit on occasion. People are not excessively friendly (like in a cult-like way). Mostly people don't even take much notice of you unless you speak up. The priests are happy to answer questions. Don't worry about standing in front of people or anything. If something exciting is happening, just crowd around it with everyone else!
posted by goethean at 1:24 PM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
The Hindu Temple Of Greater Chicago is the biggest, busiest mainstream temple and is in Lemont. There are other temples in Aurora and Bartlett. The Bartlett one is beautiful, but is run by BAPS, a super conservative non-mainstream somewhat cult-like group.
Generally, in Hindu temples, you just walk about and do your own thing. There's not usually a service, except for 5-minute impromptu things in front of the idols (murtis) or some chanting in Sanskrit on occasion. People are not excessively friendly (like in a cult-like way). Mostly people don't even take much notice of you unless you speak up. The priests are happy to answer questions. Don't worry about standing in front of people or anything. If something exciting is happening, just crowd around it with everyone else!
posted by goethean at 1:24 PM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
There used to be a Vivekananda Vedanta Center in Hyde Park, but they just built a giant building out in Homer Glen/Lockport, and I don't know if their Hyde Park location is still open.
posted by goethean at 1:26 PM on July 7, 2010
posted by goethean at 1:26 PM on July 7, 2010
Oh, and also: you can bring some change or singles to put in front of the idols if you want to. Or fruit. Or coconut. It's not required, but it's what they do.
posted by goethean at 1:28 PM on July 7, 2010
posted by goethean at 1:28 PM on July 7, 2010
Theres also a Hare Krishna place on the north side. They will talk your ear off, though.
posted by goethean at 1:29 PM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by goethean at 1:29 PM on July 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
Best answer: The Hindu Temple I live near has daily public puja services lasting about an hour. People do just come and go during the service, some staying, some just dropping by, but there are daily formal services by the priest. I send students in my World Religions class to observe and the temple is extremely welcoming of visitors at both regular events and special festivals. (Usually they are excited that people want to learn about Hinduism and not think they do weird dangerous rituals or anything.) (They also serve food after services on Saturday and Sunday and it is gooooooooooood.)
This temple is in Peoria, which would be a longish drive from Chicago just to satisfy curiosity, but if you're in the middle part of the state anyway it'd be worth checking out. Their God statues are very beautiful.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 1:35 PM on July 7, 2010
This temple is in Peoria, which would be a longish drive from Chicago just to satisfy curiosity, but if you're in the middle part of the state anyway it'd be worth checking out. Their God statues are very beautiful.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 1:35 PM on July 7, 2010
Best answer: Unfortunately, "Hinduism" is not a thing. "Hinduism" is an umbrella term someone came up with when asked what religion the people of India practice. It's like wanting to know about "Africa-ism," you know, that religion that all the Africans practice?
You've got a pantheon of deities, but sometimes that's misleading because the deities are all manifestations of something else. Or sometimes one deity "counts" and the others are all manifestations of him/her. There is also Hindu atheism.
Then you've got a ton of traditions surrounding the optimum way to have a relationship with said deities. Do you chant to them? Do you pursue moral perfection? Do you do things to your body? Do you pursue altered states of consciousness? Each approach could be considered a different religion, depending whom you ask.
Even the sacred texts, like the Bhagavad Gita (which I think should be on the top of your reading list), will be spun quite differently, depending on which tradition you're in. The Hare Krishnas obviously believe the whole thing is really about Krishna; devotees of Shiva don't necessarily agree.
"Diverse" doesn't even begin to describe it. Start with the Gita...
posted by overeducated_alligator at 1:50 PM on July 7, 2010 [7 favorites]
You've got a pantheon of deities, but sometimes that's misleading because the deities are all manifestations of something else. Or sometimes one deity "counts" and the others are all manifestations of him/her. There is also Hindu atheism.
Then you've got a ton of traditions surrounding the optimum way to have a relationship with said deities. Do you chant to them? Do you pursue moral perfection? Do you do things to your body? Do you pursue altered states of consciousness? Each approach could be considered a different religion, depending whom you ask.
Even the sacred texts, like the Bhagavad Gita (which I think should be on the top of your reading list), will be spun quite differently, depending on which tradition you're in. The Hare Krishnas obviously believe the whole thing is really about Krishna; devotees of Shiva don't necessarily agree.
"Diverse" doesn't even begin to describe it. Start with the Gita...
posted by overeducated_alligator at 1:50 PM on July 7, 2010 [7 favorites]
This is going to be a weird suggestion, but as a Hindu who grew up in the US, I learned a lot about my religion from comic books my parents bought me. They're mainly stories, but ones like the Ramayana and the Mahabharatha and ones about the avatars of Vishnu, Shiva, and Brahma will give you a good idea of the major players. They might sell them at the temples if you visit them, or you can find them online.
Also, Hinduism is a really decentralized religion. There is no universal set of texts really. Different groups practice in very different ways and might believe very different things. These differences are usually regional, but here in the US that might not matter as much.
If you visit a temple, check the schedule to make sure something is going on -- if there is an annual holiday or something; those are the most colorful ceremonies. Don't be afraid to ask questions! And don't forget to take off your shoes.
posted by bluefly at 1:51 PM on July 7, 2010 [4 favorites]
Also, Hinduism is a really decentralized religion. There is no universal set of texts really. Different groups practice in very different ways and might believe very different things. These differences are usually regional, but here in the US that might not matter as much.
If you visit a temple, check the schedule to make sure something is going on -- if there is an annual holiday or something; those are the most colorful ceremonies. Don't be afraid to ask questions! And don't forget to take off your shoes.
posted by bluefly at 1:51 PM on July 7, 2010 [4 favorites]
Mod note: few comments removed - take douchey derail to MeTa or email folks, thank you
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:00 PM on July 7, 2010
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:00 PM on July 7, 2010
Best answer: The Amar Chitra Katha comic books that bluefly mentioned are ubiquitous in Indian-American kids' houses. There are also a number of illustrated "My First Bible"-type versions of all of the major Hindu stories. I loved the comics and the children's books as a kid despite their somewhat stilted and formal Indian English. Some of them are also curious from a cultural perspective because the illustrations in the children's books and to a lesser extent the comics are gorier than anything you might find in a Western religious book for children. My favorite page of my children's Mahabharata was illustrated with a Pandava collapsing among some decapitated heads while being bloodily impaled on a long iron-cast blade of grass. These days you can find the comics easily online but if you feel like an excursion and haven't been there, the Indian stretch of Devon Avenue has some shops that are entirely devoted (hyuck) to figurines of gods, children's Hindu books and other Hindu literature, incense, etc.
As everyone has said, most temples are good about visitors. goethean's suggestion of taking along a few pieces of fruit is great. Flowers are usually welcome too. If you ask to receive a blessing from one of the priests, you may be given a fruit or a small handful of nuts or sweets at its conclusion (see prasad). Some temples sell inexpensive food or offer it freely as a sort of mitzvah. I have a bunch of relatives in and around Chicago who might be able to offer recommendations on where and when. You can send me a MeMail if you need.
Since you've read Rushdie, you already know that Indian English literature is a Thing, but you may or may not be familiar with some of the other major authors. A couple good novels in which Hindu attitudes (particularly a stereotypical crushing fatalism) and the daily practice of Hinduism are prominent are A House for Mr. Biswas by V. S. Naipaul and The God of Small Things by Arundhati Roy. I think you would be negligent if you didn't read Gandhi's autobiography, which I last read in my teens but remember enjoying, especially his furtive childhood experiments with meat-eating and his reconciling a Hindu upbringing with the necessity of taking on some Western customs when he arrived in England. Another later passage I still remember is this one about his and his wife's refusal to allow her to be given beef broth during a serious illness. Gandhi is interesting partly because despite his having been one of the most effective emissaries to the West for Hindu principles, he is still despised by some Hindu fundamentalists for not being Hinduism-first enough and for working against oppressive Hindu cultural orthodoxy like the caste system.
Because of the lessened emphasis on creed, Hinduism as a system is somewhat less hostile to agnosticism or atheism than the monotheistic People-of-the-Book religions are. I know a few self-described Hindu atheists. By Western standards I'm agnostic (and indifferent, sort of) but I don't mind being considered still Hindu by a lot of Hindus, some of whom think everyone's a Hindu whether they realize it yet or not (cf. Hindu universalism).
posted by hat at 5:30 PM on July 7, 2010 [6 favorites]
As everyone has said, most temples are good about visitors. goethean's suggestion of taking along a few pieces of fruit is great. Flowers are usually welcome too. If you ask to receive a blessing from one of the priests, you may be given a fruit or a small handful of nuts or sweets at its conclusion (see prasad). Some temples sell inexpensive food or offer it freely as a sort of mitzvah. I have a bunch of relatives in and around Chicago who might be able to offer recommendations on where and when. You can send me a MeMail if you need.
Since you've read Rushdie, you already know that Indian English literature is a Thing, but you may or may not be familiar with some of the other major authors. A couple good novels in which Hindu attitudes (particularly a stereotypical crushing fatalism) and the daily practice of Hinduism are prominent are A House for Mr. Biswas by V. S. Naipaul and The God of Small Things by Arundhati Roy. I think you would be negligent if you didn't read Gandhi's autobiography, which I last read in my teens but remember enjoying, especially his furtive childhood experiments with meat-eating and his reconciling a Hindu upbringing with the necessity of taking on some Western customs when he arrived in England. Another later passage I still remember is this one about his and his wife's refusal to allow her to be given beef broth during a serious illness. Gandhi is interesting partly because despite his having been one of the most effective emissaries to the West for Hindu principles, he is still despised by some Hindu fundamentalists for not being Hinduism-first enough and for working against oppressive Hindu cultural orthodoxy like the caste system.
Because of the lessened emphasis on creed, Hinduism as a system is somewhat less hostile to agnosticism or atheism than the monotheistic People-of-the-Book religions are. I know a few self-described Hindu atheists. By Western standards I'm agnostic (and indifferent, sort of) but I don't mind being considered still Hindu by a lot of Hindus, some of whom think everyone's a Hindu whether they realize it yet or not (cf. Hindu universalism).
posted by hat at 5:30 PM on July 7, 2010 [6 favorites]
As overeducated alligator said, "Hinduism" isn't a monolithic faith by any means. Some groups put more emphasis on certain deities than others. ISKCON, for instance, believes that Krishna is the Supreme Godhead. Others would say that Vishnu is the Supreme Godhead, with Krishna being an incarnation of Vishnu.
I would go to your local ISKCON temple; since they welcome proselytes (if not actively proselytize), they are sure to have loads of beginner-friendly books on their particular beliefs. While they do get a bad rap in some sectors for being a "cult", their belief system is hundreds of years old and long precedes their most famous guru in the US, the late A.C. Bhaktivedanta Prabupadha Swami. At the very least, if your local temple has a restaurant, check it out; Hare Krishna cuisine is fantastic (and vegetarian!)
posted by holterbarbour at 7:06 PM on July 7, 2010
I would go to your local ISKCON temple; since they welcome proselytes (if not actively proselytize), they are sure to have loads of beginner-friendly books on their particular beliefs. While they do get a bad rap in some sectors for being a "cult", their belief system is hundreds of years old and long precedes their most famous guru in the US, the late A.C. Bhaktivedanta Prabupadha Swami. At the very least, if your local temple has a restaurant, check it out; Hare Krishna cuisine is fantastic (and vegetarian!)
posted by holterbarbour at 7:06 PM on July 7, 2010
Unfortunately, "Hinduism" is not a thing.
This was true about 150 years ago, but in the last century and a half, and in reaction to its confrontation with Protestantism, Hinduism has become a thing. Most Hindus are more indebted to Vivekananda's Neo-Vedanta ('many paths up one mountain') than they are to the Vedas, the Gita, the Upanishads, or other classical Indian traditions.
posted by goethean at 7:44 PM on July 7, 2010
This was true about 150 years ago, but in the last century and a half, and in reaction to its confrontation with Protestantism, Hinduism has become a thing. Most Hindus are more indebted to Vivekananda's Neo-Vedanta ('many paths up one mountain') than they are to the Vedas, the Gita, the Upanishads, or other classical Indian traditions.
posted by goethean at 7:44 PM on July 7, 2010
So far a lot of good suggestions have been made. I'd like to strongly second the suggestions to hit up your local Hindu temples and read some of the children's story books. Those two things will give you a sense of Hinduism as it's actively practiced and experienced by most Hindus today. Both will acquaint you with the cast of characters-- Krishna, Ram, Ganesh, Shiva, Durga, etc-- and the basic storylines-- the Ramayana, the Mahabharata, the incarnations of Vishnu, etc-- that are very important to most Hindus. If you want a good nonfiction "primer" on Hindu worship, I highly recommend the book Darsan by Diana Eck. It's commonly used in undergrad classes on Hinduism, and for good reason: it's a quick, engaging, easy read, that's accessible to a beginner, without sacrificing subtleties.
The suggestions I'm giving are suggestions that will teach you more about "temple Hinduism," the everyday, deity and worship-focused Hinduism. This is a broad category that encompasses a lot of different traditions, but there is some common ground in practice and attitudes and beliefs. I suggest starting there because it's the most relevant to most modern Hindus, and because if you try to take the historical approach (working your way forward through the development of Indian religion from the Vedic period on), it'll take you forever to get to the stuff that's right outside in your city today.
Of course, as others have pointed out, Hinduism is fantastically varied and has a long, rich history. The question of whether or not Hinduism is a religion is a complex one, and I for one cannot answer it. I'm not sure if I could tell you if Christianity is a religion or not, and if so, where to start learning about it: someone might point you to a Catholic church service, as they represent the largest denomination of Christianity and experiencing their worship would give you a sense of what Christians experience; someone else might say you need to read about the life and words of Jesus, who, after all, is the very heart of the religion; someone might suggest talking to the Jehovah's Witnesses or the Born Again evangelicals, since they're so eager for new recruits they'll be happy to tell you what it's all about. And someone might say you can't begin to understand until you study the protestant revolution and it's social, historical, and religious reverberations throughout Europe and the modern world.
But I hope the complexity doesn't discourage you from trying to learn more about Hinduism. If anything, the sheer hugeness of Hinduism underscores how important it is to so many people, and to our world today. And there is simply so much fascinating stuff there, once you get started. Let me know if you have any more questions about it!
posted by bookish at 9:08 PM on July 7, 2010
The suggestions I'm giving are suggestions that will teach you more about "temple Hinduism," the everyday, deity and worship-focused Hinduism. This is a broad category that encompasses a lot of different traditions, but there is some common ground in practice and attitudes and beliefs. I suggest starting there because it's the most relevant to most modern Hindus, and because if you try to take the historical approach (working your way forward through the development of Indian religion from the Vedic period on), it'll take you forever to get to the stuff that's right outside in your city today.
Of course, as others have pointed out, Hinduism is fantastically varied and has a long, rich history. The question of whether or not Hinduism is a religion is a complex one, and I for one cannot answer it. I'm not sure if I could tell you if Christianity is a religion or not, and if so, where to start learning about it: someone might point you to a Catholic church service, as they represent the largest denomination of Christianity and experiencing their worship would give you a sense of what Christians experience; someone else might say you need to read about the life and words of Jesus, who, after all, is the very heart of the religion; someone might suggest talking to the Jehovah's Witnesses or the Born Again evangelicals, since they're so eager for new recruits they'll be happy to tell you what it's all about. And someone might say you can't begin to understand until you study the protestant revolution and it's social, historical, and religious reverberations throughout Europe and the modern world.
But I hope the complexity doesn't discourage you from trying to learn more about Hinduism. If anything, the sheer hugeness of Hinduism underscores how important it is to so many people, and to our world today. And there is simply so much fascinating stuff there, once you get started. Let me know if you have any more questions about it!
posted by bookish at 9:08 PM on July 7, 2010
Seconding Darsan. I thought RK Narayan, and especially his short stories give a great feel for ordinary life amongst South Indian Hindus and Christians (disclaimer: I am not a South Indian Hindu or Christian). The movie Guide, if you can ignore its absolutely terrible English sub-titles, goes into the very different idea of sainthood you find in South Asia. It's my favourite Indian movie.
posted by tavegyl at 12:41 AM on July 8, 2010
posted by tavegyl at 12:41 AM on July 8, 2010
Best answer: Oh boy, I think this is the hardest question I've ever tried to answer on Ask. I've been starting and stopping, so I think instead of trying to give you any kind of reductive "overview", I'll just address your specific question(s) -- hopefully it will ground you and not intimidate or put you off.
(Context: I live in India and my entire family and most friends are Hindu. I am an atheist, have been for as long as I can remember, and I've lived in the US as well. I'm by no means representative of any of those categories. Also I don't really have a very strong grasp of Indian history or mythology, but I have and do experience both and make my own connections between what I see and what I learn -- so take my specific, necessarily limited opinions with a heap of salt.)
It's the third largest religion in the world, and I don't know a darn thing about it.
Okay, the first thing is that Hinduism isn't a thing but rather an identity (which began, long ago, as a signifier based on geography, not belief) -- and an extremely, if not entirely, communal one at that. It is incredibly diverse, but it is a coherent and important identity (nowhere more apparent than the Hindu-Muslim riots at the time of the partition of India and Pakistan, and more recently also during the Gujarat riots of 2002) that has been used for two primary purposes: communal harmony (among Hindus of various traditions, stripes and beliefs), and communal strife (more historically among castes, but more recently between Hindus and Muslims, and occasionally Hindus and Christians). So I would say that you'd have to approach any study of Hinduism -- or anything that tries to capture what it "is" – with both skepticism and some knowledge of the incredibly long, still not very illuminated, and unfortunately largely uncritical, historical context within which it has emerged as "Hinduism".
You'll first want to ask yourself what your reasons for knowing more about it are so that you can narrow things down a little without getting totally confused. You'll want to approach Hindu scripture and practice (what Hindus "should" do and how they practise the religion) as somewhat separate from Hindu philosophy (how Hindus look at the world). You'll want to keep important the differences between the old and the current, and also remember that any way of looking at the ancient past is mostly imposing "Hinduism" on it rather than unearthing it organically.
Also know that for most Hindus (unless they are Brahmans, but even then not necessarily or even mostly), the practise of Hinduism isn't rooted in a specific text like the Bible but rather in traditions of practice -- which are primarily local but allow a varying degree of latitude in terms of which specific dieties, if any, you want to embrace as your own personal God(s). The rest of us rely on Brahmans the way a Christian might rely on a priest to do whatever's the right thing in a given religious situation. Also, for all the Hindus I know, the philosophy of Hinduism doesn't come from reading texts like the Gita or Upanishads (let alone the Vedas or something) but rather from mythology, which has mostly been saved and passed on orally in the form of long "historical" narratives (eg: Amar Chitra Katha, as someone mentioned above, or even Shakuntala and such) or in dramatic form like the Ram Lila (or more recently the gigantically popular TV series).
It occurred to me recently that I don't know anything about Hinduism. I realize that I can't expect to learn too much about such an ancient religion and culture merely by studying it casually, but I can certainly learn a bit more than I know now. I also realize that its fantastically diverse. Nevertheless, can y'all recommend some places to get my feet wet?
See, you already know a lot about it: it's large and it's old and it's diverse. It's also a couple of others things: very flexible, when it comes to practice, and very pragmatic. As I mentioned above, I'm an atheist, but it doesn't really matter much at all. I was born Hindu, I have a very Hindu name so if tomorrow a riot broke out, I'd be Hindu and I would not be asked whether I believe in God or which one. (There are tales from the Partition, in the wake of which my father's family moved to India, where rioters would just strip lone men -- who wouldn't give their names -- naked to see if they were circumsized or not; and that was all they needed to distinguish between Hindu and Muslim.)
As importantly -- and this is something you'll find explicitly in the Gita -- in Hindu philosophy, everyone is a Hindu, or rather, there is no such thing as a Hindu. God has infinite manifestations but according to monotheistic philosophy, all those Gods are ultimately One. This is not about specific regions or times but rather the whole world at all times (which is where "eternal" law comes from). And it's a manifestly non-dualist philosophy; there is no heaven or hell but rather a recurring cycle of life and death and an illusory world (maya, not very different from the Greek idea of the cosmos), which is considered sacred because it was created by God, but also inherently tragic, and "mukti" (relief) or "nirvana" is achieved through ethical behavior (those ethics vary widely within the canon itself) and ritual offerings or sacrifice, which, again, are by no means static across time or place. Good and evil are also not separated. The Gita mentions evil, but mostly it just means selfishness. The book of Manu, on the other hand, which is quite patently ridiculous as a creationist myth, lays down specific laws, nearly all of which are irrelevant to the modern Hindu.
So it's not logical but it's experiential and it emphasizes community and tradition, which, like anywhere else, has been used here to justify a lot of oppression and cruelty. The caste system, for instance, which is based on (and links together) birth and profession, served to keep most people uneducated, which means that whatever texts survive are not only incomplete but utterly one-sided. Those who "knew" the texts and got their social power from it -- the twice-born classes -- were primarily the ones most concerned with ritual and religious purity. For the rest, it's mostly whatever you can afford (in terms of time and money) or get away with. This is still true but in different and significantly lesser ways.
Again, our religious flexibility is most apparent to me in considering caste practices in modern India. Most urban Hindus have devalued caste and don't consider it an important or defububg part of their belief, not least because we're all middle-class now, and living in our time requires dealing with people of all sorts and it's neither sustainable nor socially required to know what caste someone is or comes from. (That said, older, higher-caste Hindus still have a chip on their shoulders and older, middle-class Hindus still look down upon the lowest "castes" or professions.) On the other hand, there are several sects which may or may not have been oppressed but certainly no longer are, who still lobby hard to be recognized as "Scheduled Castes" in order to qualify for affirmative action in government schools and jobs. So we change in practice much before we really change in belief, belief doesn't really matter, socially speaking, and we're all trying to get ahead.
For one thing, where around Chicago could an interested (but atheist) observer be welcome? And are there specific ceremonies that would be both acceptable to observe and also interesting to watch? I've observed a lot of Christian ceremony, and people mostly seem genuinely happy to have me there, even if I'm not participating (even if my atheism is respectfully explicit, in a few cases). Is this likely to be true in Chicago Hindu circles, as well?
Yes, totally -- not just in Chicago but in much of India (everywhere I've been, at least, and I have traveled with foreigners who were more interested and more welcomed than I was). It's not a protected or purist religion any longer, if it ever was, and most religious places have found infinite ways to understand and capitalize on foreign interest. Like I mentioned, we're nothing if not pragmatic; and I have found nothing in the religious texts which say that it's okay to discriminate against people if they don't believe what you do. The opposite is truer, in what I've read.
For another, what fiction should I read? I've recently been on a (mostly unintentional) Islam kick, reading The Taqwacores and Persepolis. I got a lot out ofThe Satanic Verses a while back, as well. I think what I like about these novels is that while they are all highly critical of Islam they come are also highly committed to it (well, committed to the culture, in Rushdie's case, not the religion so much). Perhaps there are hard core folks that wouldn't count Michael Muhammad Knight or Marjane Satrapi as "true Muslims", but they certainly identify that way themselves. And I felt a real love for Islam come through, even from Rushdie.
Well, a "true Muslim" is at least a meaningful category, in that it's up for debate and people argue vociferously about it. For most Hindus (and this includes Brahmans that I know) there is no such thing as a "true Hindu" or a "good Hindu". It's too complicated and long and localized and varied a history to allow for that kind of essentialism. That said, this also means that most Hindus believe in and abide by Hinduism in terms of what they think of it, and in that sense it is not only social but very personal as well. So I don't know about "love for Hinduism" either, there is no one thing to love or hate; for some (like myself) there are some fantastic things about its philosophy, but for most it's just how it's about the practice which is not something to love but something to do. I haven't met any who really loved Hinduism besides old uncles who mostly use it to draw smug contrasts between the East and the West, or, you know, stoned Rishis and hippies, who seem to love a lot of things -- not that there's anything wrong with that, of course.
Reading those novels, I felt that I got some sense of what Islam is like for devout (but progressive) Muslims. Can you recommend similar novels that would give me some perspective on modern Hinduism?
Again, I have never heard the term "devout" applied to a practising Hindu. Pious, maybe, but not often, any more, and that too sometimes with an eye-roll. So devoutness is somewhat irrelevant and also fading, in my opinion. Even progressive is not a meaningful category here, although it does come up when certain fundamentalist or power-hungry assholes try to find basis for their orthodoxy in Hindu tradition, although in those cases "tradition" is more about regionalism or nationalism rather than Hinduism itself. This despite the fact that in certain ancient scriptures, you'll find some extremely orthodox opinions about caste and gender. But like I said, we're a thoroughly pragmatic people, and while some of us try to "use" religion to justify new kinds of oppression, they're shouted down by liberals and pragmatics and things settle back into normalcy fairly quickly.
And yes, I realize that plenty of folks wold be more than a little upset that I learned about Islam from those three books in particular but I feel like I got a better sense of the religion via its loving critics than I would have from fundamentalist sources. Then again, if there's a more orthodox Hindu source (or a Muslim one, for that matter) that would really help me understand, please let me know about that too.
The only really loving critic of Hinduism I've found, in my limited study, is Gandhi. The rest either exhalt too much (this is true of many older scholars, although it's also more understandable, I think, in their case), or fixate primarily on the negative -- in a bid to reform things -- or just accept and follow it uncritically. For most people, it doesn't really become an issue, for a host of reasons.
Now that I've dismantled much of your question, I'll try to actually answer it a little bit. I'll mention some things that will hopefully make Hinduism a bit more coherent for you -- you will find that these concepts are all related to each other and have been prevalent in practice across much of history and geography:
"Sacred" is an important notion in Hinduism. "Profane," however, is not. As I said, it's not a dualistic philosophy; although some things can be more sacred than others, like, say, a cow or an idol or a Brahman, and are more "protected", that's more because they have symbolic or social power. In that sense, nothing is really unsacred and everything is in its place. So before entering a temple you must take your shoes off; if you sully a text (any text, in my experience), you pick it up and hold it up to your forehead as a sign of respect.
So, yes, symbolism is very big in Hinduism. If you pick up a rock from the roadside and decide that it is sacred, Hindu philosophy agrees with you. Where it might disagree is if you killed a cow (or other animals), kicked a book or smashed an idol.
Respect is a big, big thing in Hinduism. Respect for elders, respect for symbols, respect for text, respect for husbands etc. Again, often this manifests as oppression, especially because economic and social power varies so widely.
"Darshan" is important in Hindu practice. It translates literally to "seeing" but it's a noun and it's used exclusively in the context of sacred symbols and such. So pilgrimage to "see" the holy sites and symbols is common and an important rite for many Hindus -– a lot of vacations 'pious' Hindus take tend to be to such places. (Varansi is not really one of them anymore.) If you see a temple or a diety, driving by in your car even, you often roll down your window or make a sign of respect (briefly closing your eyes and touching your forehead). I'm not really sure about the philosophical basis for this belief.
A couple of things it's not terribly concerned with: logic, and individualism (or, broadly speaking, humanism). This manifests in the "mysticism" we are famous for, but also, most annoyingly for me, in a lack of critical thinking and of mechanistic models which can be used not only to critically discuss philosophical texts but also life and society in general. Paradox is a far more prevalent and central notion in it -- and because it's central it leads not to irony (as it seems to in the "West") but rather fatalism or cynicism.
The Typical Hindu
So I know a lot of Hindus, none of them atypical or particularly devout. So maybe it would be helpful if I tried to draw out the ways in which they are similar:
*They venerate all Hindu Gods, although the ones they specifically worship depends mostly on their family or the occasion or their own choice. Each major God has his (they're overwhelmingly male) own prayers and rituals, but there's a lot of overlap in meaning and practice. I haven't heard of much infighting, although some Brahmans I've met seem to think that their God and their way of doing things is the right or best way and are ever-ready to argue about it.
*They pray and go to temples, which are all considered sacred, although some more than others, based on their role in mythology. Many Hindus that I know have small temples in their own house (my parents have one), and don't go to public temples that much, which are either crowded or greedy, and often both. However, for important occasions (like when I was leaving for the US), going to a "good" public temple to ask for special blessings is de rigeur. What goes on in a temple can vary from chanting to prayer to just asking for a blessing, making a donation/offering and buzzing off.
*They often believe in astrology as well. (Don't get me started on that.) So there's usually auspicious times to do or begin certain things, and certain guidelines for how to do it, and if you don't know, all you have to do is get (pay) a Brahman to fill you in or help you out.
*Because most tend to believe whatever they're born into but also it's not a big deal what you believe, religion is still a very significant way in which families and communities are tied together. So festivals and other important rituals (like weddings and such) are rooted in religious and traditional practice, but are most of all very social. And you can celebrate most of the popular festivals without necessarily having to partake in the religious aspects of them. (This is what I do, for the most part, except when those celebrations themselves are blatantly sexist, as in the case of Rakhi.)
Recommendations / Getting Your Feet Wet
Mythology: Ramayana and Mahabharata are the two big ones. I can't really recommend that you start with them though, not just because you didn't ask but because they're extremely complicated and long, and might seem ridiculous if you don't have some kind of prior context as to how they function within Hinduism. That said, they're absolutely fantastic, especially the Mahabharata. The Amar Chitra Katha series are a good place to begin, but keep in mind that they're mostly intended for children.
Philosophy: Yes, please do read the Gita. It's a mindbender in the best possible sense of the word, and it will clue you in to much of the prevalent Hindu philosophy -- which, well, isn't even that prevalent anymore because of globalisation and what not. I've tried a few translations and found Winthrop Sargeant's to be the best -- the 25th anniversary edition, although it has a line-by-line translation of the original Sanskrit and might seem like overkill for you, also has a really great introduction to the mythological context wherein the Gita unfolds, and great footnotes on broader context and some previous (academic, mostly "native") interpretations of the particularly knotty bits.
If you get very into it, you'll want to approach the Upanishads next; I only have the Penguin translation myself and it's a very beautiful one, but I can't recommend a particular translation in this case. For a relatively recent Hindu philosopher, you might want to read Vivekananda.
Fiction: Yes, R.K Narayan is a very beloved Indian writer who writes poignantly about small-town Hindus and their moral and human struggles. (In particular, and in order, I'd recommend: The Guide, Swami and Friends and The English Teacher.) More recently, we've had a couple of Booker winners that I think would be approachable and rewarding reads for you: Arundhati Roy's The God of Small Things, and Arvind Adiga's White Tiger. Neither are about Hinduism, but both are about the culture of India, which is, well, predominantly Hindu, and both primarily address how religion is used in regional politics. I've kinda stepped back from the Indian fiction scene myself, but have also heard interesting things about The Temple Goers by Aatish Aseer -- although it seems to be, like much of our current "intellectural" fiction (not to mention intellectual Indians) very cynical. Meh!
Also, Rushdie writes about India -- Midnight's Children, if you haven't read it, is cosmopolitan, sprawling, historical, magnificent! Also Rohinton Mistry's A Fine Balance deals very beautifully with the struggles of various people in post-indepence, pre-globalisation India but with a good bit of socio-historical context. It's an extremely painful read, but in my opinion it mirrors closely the bitter-sweet, mostly tragic fatalism which still infuses much of India.
Finally, if you want to experience Hinduism, there's no better advice than: come visit! There's over 800 million Hindus here, what is considered Hinduism began over 3000 years ago right here, and although not much textual evidence survives, the monuments that do, and their architecture, are incredible and diverse. Plus... coming, visiting and staying is really the only way to see varied practices of Hinduism, and the ways in which it is both deep-rooted and irrelevant, social and personal, philosophic and illogical, ridiculous and meaningful, non-violent and oppressive. And also to appreciate how it adapts to the contingency of time and place.
In my experience, people who come to visit either run away shuddering, never to look back, or always want to come back and often do. Either way, it's a thoroughly unsettling experience that resists description and explanation. :)
posted by mondaygreens at 3:33 PM on July 8, 2010 [9 favorites]
(Context: I live in India and my entire family and most friends are Hindu. I am an atheist, have been for as long as I can remember, and I've lived in the US as well. I'm by no means representative of any of those categories. Also I don't really have a very strong grasp of Indian history or mythology, but I have and do experience both and make my own connections between what I see and what I learn -- so take my specific, necessarily limited opinions with a heap of salt.)
It's the third largest religion in the world, and I don't know a darn thing about it.
Okay, the first thing is that Hinduism isn't a thing but rather an identity (which began, long ago, as a signifier based on geography, not belief) -- and an extremely, if not entirely, communal one at that. It is incredibly diverse, but it is a coherent and important identity (nowhere more apparent than the Hindu-Muslim riots at the time of the partition of India and Pakistan, and more recently also during the Gujarat riots of 2002) that has been used for two primary purposes: communal harmony (among Hindus of various traditions, stripes and beliefs), and communal strife (more historically among castes, but more recently between Hindus and Muslims, and occasionally Hindus and Christians). So I would say that you'd have to approach any study of Hinduism -- or anything that tries to capture what it "is" – with both skepticism and some knowledge of the incredibly long, still not very illuminated, and unfortunately largely uncritical, historical context within which it has emerged as "Hinduism".
You'll first want to ask yourself what your reasons for knowing more about it are so that you can narrow things down a little without getting totally confused. You'll want to approach Hindu scripture and practice (what Hindus "should" do and how they practise the religion) as somewhat separate from Hindu philosophy (how Hindus look at the world). You'll want to keep important the differences between the old and the current, and also remember that any way of looking at the ancient past is mostly imposing "Hinduism" on it rather than unearthing it organically.
Also know that for most Hindus (unless they are Brahmans, but even then not necessarily or even mostly), the practise of Hinduism isn't rooted in a specific text like the Bible but rather in traditions of practice -- which are primarily local but allow a varying degree of latitude in terms of which specific dieties, if any, you want to embrace as your own personal God(s). The rest of us rely on Brahmans the way a Christian might rely on a priest to do whatever's the right thing in a given religious situation. Also, for all the Hindus I know, the philosophy of Hinduism doesn't come from reading texts like the Gita or Upanishads (let alone the Vedas or something) but rather from mythology, which has mostly been saved and passed on orally in the form of long "historical" narratives (eg: Amar Chitra Katha, as someone mentioned above, or even Shakuntala and such) or in dramatic form like the Ram Lila (or more recently the gigantically popular TV series).
It occurred to me recently that I don't know anything about Hinduism. I realize that I can't expect to learn too much about such an ancient religion and culture merely by studying it casually, but I can certainly learn a bit more than I know now. I also realize that its fantastically diverse. Nevertheless, can y'all recommend some places to get my feet wet?
See, you already know a lot about it: it's large and it's old and it's diverse. It's also a couple of others things: very flexible, when it comes to practice, and very pragmatic. As I mentioned above, I'm an atheist, but it doesn't really matter much at all. I was born Hindu, I have a very Hindu name so if tomorrow a riot broke out, I'd be Hindu and I would not be asked whether I believe in God or which one. (There are tales from the Partition, in the wake of which my father's family moved to India, where rioters would just strip lone men -- who wouldn't give their names -- naked to see if they were circumsized or not; and that was all they needed to distinguish between Hindu and Muslim.)
As importantly -- and this is something you'll find explicitly in the Gita -- in Hindu philosophy, everyone is a Hindu, or rather, there is no such thing as a Hindu. God has infinite manifestations but according to monotheistic philosophy, all those Gods are ultimately One. This is not about specific regions or times but rather the whole world at all times (which is where "eternal" law comes from). And it's a manifestly non-dualist philosophy; there is no heaven or hell but rather a recurring cycle of life and death and an illusory world (maya, not very different from the Greek idea of the cosmos), which is considered sacred because it was created by God, but also inherently tragic, and "mukti" (relief) or "nirvana" is achieved through ethical behavior (those ethics vary widely within the canon itself) and ritual offerings or sacrifice, which, again, are by no means static across time or place. Good and evil are also not separated. The Gita mentions evil, but mostly it just means selfishness. The book of Manu, on the other hand, which is quite patently ridiculous as a creationist myth, lays down specific laws, nearly all of which are irrelevant to the modern Hindu.
So it's not logical but it's experiential and it emphasizes community and tradition, which, like anywhere else, has been used here to justify a lot of oppression and cruelty. The caste system, for instance, which is based on (and links together) birth and profession, served to keep most people uneducated, which means that whatever texts survive are not only incomplete but utterly one-sided. Those who "knew" the texts and got their social power from it -- the twice-born classes -- were primarily the ones most concerned with ritual and religious purity. For the rest, it's mostly whatever you can afford (in terms of time and money) or get away with. This is still true but in different and significantly lesser ways.
Again, our religious flexibility is most apparent to me in considering caste practices in modern India. Most urban Hindus have devalued caste and don't consider it an important or defububg part of their belief, not least because we're all middle-class now, and living in our time requires dealing with people of all sorts and it's neither sustainable nor socially required to know what caste someone is or comes from. (That said, older, higher-caste Hindus still have a chip on their shoulders and older, middle-class Hindus still look down upon the lowest "castes" or professions.) On the other hand, there are several sects which may or may not have been oppressed but certainly no longer are, who still lobby hard to be recognized as "Scheduled Castes" in order to qualify for affirmative action in government schools and jobs. So we change in practice much before we really change in belief, belief doesn't really matter, socially speaking, and we're all trying to get ahead.
For one thing, where around Chicago could an interested (but atheist) observer be welcome? And are there specific ceremonies that would be both acceptable to observe and also interesting to watch? I've observed a lot of Christian ceremony, and people mostly seem genuinely happy to have me there, even if I'm not participating (even if my atheism is respectfully explicit, in a few cases). Is this likely to be true in Chicago Hindu circles, as well?
Yes, totally -- not just in Chicago but in much of India (everywhere I've been, at least, and I have traveled with foreigners who were more interested and more welcomed than I was). It's not a protected or purist religion any longer, if it ever was, and most religious places have found infinite ways to understand and capitalize on foreign interest. Like I mentioned, we're nothing if not pragmatic; and I have found nothing in the religious texts which say that it's okay to discriminate against people if they don't believe what you do. The opposite is truer, in what I've read.
For another, what fiction should I read? I've recently been on a (mostly unintentional) Islam kick, reading The Taqwacores and Persepolis. I got a lot out ofThe Satanic Verses a while back, as well. I think what I like about these novels is that while they are all highly critical of Islam they come are also highly committed to it (well, committed to the culture, in Rushdie's case, not the religion so much). Perhaps there are hard core folks that wouldn't count Michael Muhammad Knight or Marjane Satrapi as "true Muslims", but they certainly identify that way themselves. And I felt a real love for Islam come through, even from Rushdie.
Well, a "true Muslim" is at least a meaningful category, in that it's up for debate and people argue vociferously about it. For most Hindus (and this includes Brahmans that I know) there is no such thing as a "true Hindu" or a "good Hindu". It's too complicated and long and localized and varied a history to allow for that kind of essentialism. That said, this also means that most Hindus believe in and abide by Hinduism in terms of what they think of it, and in that sense it is not only social but very personal as well. So I don't know about "love for Hinduism" either, there is no one thing to love or hate; for some (like myself) there are some fantastic things about its philosophy, but for most it's just how it's about the practice which is not something to love but something to do. I haven't met any who really loved Hinduism besides old uncles who mostly use it to draw smug contrasts between the East and the West, or, you know, stoned Rishis and hippies, who seem to love a lot of things -- not that there's anything wrong with that, of course.
Reading those novels, I felt that I got some sense of what Islam is like for devout (but progressive) Muslims. Can you recommend similar novels that would give me some perspective on modern Hinduism?
Again, I have never heard the term "devout" applied to a practising Hindu. Pious, maybe, but not often, any more, and that too sometimes with an eye-roll. So devoutness is somewhat irrelevant and also fading, in my opinion. Even progressive is not a meaningful category here, although it does come up when certain fundamentalist or power-hungry assholes try to find basis for their orthodoxy in Hindu tradition, although in those cases "tradition" is more about regionalism or nationalism rather than Hinduism itself. This despite the fact that in certain ancient scriptures, you'll find some extremely orthodox opinions about caste and gender. But like I said, we're a thoroughly pragmatic people, and while some of us try to "use" religion to justify new kinds of oppression, they're shouted down by liberals and pragmatics and things settle back into normalcy fairly quickly.
And yes, I realize that plenty of folks wold be more than a little upset that I learned about Islam from those three books in particular but I feel like I got a better sense of the religion via its loving critics than I would have from fundamentalist sources. Then again, if there's a more orthodox Hindu source (or a Muslim one, for that matter) that would really help me understand, please let me know about that too.
The only really loving critic of Hinduism I've found, in my limited study, is Gandhi. The rest either exhalt too much (this is true of many older scholars, although it's also more understandable, I think, in their case), or fixate primarily on the negative -- in a bid to reform things -- or just accept and follow it uncritically. For most people, it doesn't really become an issue, for a host of reasons.
Now that I've dismantled much of your question, I'll try to actually answer it a little bit. I'll mention some things that will hopefully make Hinduism a bit more coherent for you -- you will find that these concepts are all related to each other and have been prevalent in practice across much of history and geography:
"Sacred" is an important notion in Hinduism. "Profane," however, is not. As I said, it's not a dualistic philosophy; although some things can be more sacred than others, like, say, a cow or an idol or a Brahman, and are more "protected", that's more because they have symbolic or social power. In that sense, nothing is really unsacred and everything is in its place. So before entering a temple you must take your shoes off; if you sully a text (any text, in my experience), you pick it up and hold it up to your forehead as a sign of respect.
So, yes, symbolism is very big in Hinduism. If you pick up a rock from the roadside and decide that it is sacred, Hindu philosophy agrees with you. Where it might disagree is if you killed a cow (or other animals), kicked a book or smashed an idol.
Respect is a big, big thing in Hinduism. Respect for elders, respect for symbols, respect for text, respect for husbands etc. Again, often this manifests as oppression, especially because economic and social power varies so widely.
"Darshan" is important in Hindu practice. It translates literally to "seeing" but it's a noun and it's used exclusively in the context of sacred symbols and such. So pilgrimage to "see" the holy sites and symbols is common and an important rite for many Hindus -– a lot of vacations 'pious' Hindus take tend to be to such places. (Varansi is not really one of them anymore.) If you see a temple or a diety, driving by in your car even, you often roll down your window or make a sign of respect (briefly closing your eyes and touching your forehead). I'm not really sure about the philosophical basis for this belief.
A couple of things it's not terribly concerned with: logic, and individualism (or, broadly speaking, humanism). This manifests in the "mysticism" we are famous for, but also, most annoyingly for me, in a lack of critical thinking and of mechanistic models which can be used not only to critically discuss philosophical texts but also life and society in general. Paradox is a far more prevalent and central notion in it -- and because it's central it leads not to irony (as it seems to in the "West") but rather fatalism or cynicism.
The Typical Hindu
So I know a lot of Hindus, none of them atypical or particularly devout. So maybe it would be helpful if I tried to draw out the ways in which they are similar:
*They venerate all Hindu Gods, although the ones they specifically worship depends mostly on their family or the occasion or their own choice. Each major God has his (they're overwhelmingly male) own prayers and rituals, but there's a lot of overlap in meaning and practice. I haven't heard of much infighting, although some Brahmans I've met seem to think that their God and their way of doing things is the right or best way and are ever-ready to argue about it.
*They pray and go to temples, which are all considered sacred, although some more than others, based on their role in mythology. Many Hindus that I know have small temples in their own house (my parents have one), and don't go to public temples that much, which are either crowded or greedy, and often both. However, for important occasions (like when I was leaving for the US), going to a "good" public temple to ask for special blessings is de rigeur. What goes on in a temple can vary from chanting to prayer to just asking for a blessing, making a donation/offering and buzzing off.
*They often believe in astrology as well. (Don't get me started on that.) So there's usually auspicious times to do or begin certain things, and certain guidelines for how to do it, and if you don't know, all you have to do is get (pay) a Brahman to fill you in or help you out.
*Because most tend to believe whatever they're born into but also it's not a big deal what you believe, religion is still a very significant way in which families and communities are tied together. So festivals and other important rituals (like weddings and such) are rooted in religious and traditional practice, but are most of all very social. And you can celebrate most of the popular festivals without necessarily having to partake in the religious aspects of them. (This is what I do, for the most part, except when those celebrations themselves are blatantly sexist, as in the case of Rakhi.)
Recommendations / Getting Your Feet Wet
Mythology: Ramayana and Mahabharata are the two big ones. I can't really recommend that you start with them though, not just because you didn't ask but because they're extremely complicated and long, and might seem ridiculous if you don't have some kind of prior context as to how they function within Hinduism. That said, they're absolutely fantastic, especially the Mahabharata. The Amar Chitra Katha series are a good place to begin, but keep in mind that they're mostly intended for children.
Philosophy: Yes, please do read the Gita. It's a mindbender in the best possible sense of the word, and it will clue you in to much of the prevalent Hindu philosophy -- which, well, isn't even that prevalent anymore because of globalisation and what not. I've tried a few translations and found Winthrop Sargeant's to be the best -- the 25th anniversary edition, although it has a line-by-line translation of the original Sanskrit and might seem like overkill for you, also has a really great introduction to the mythological context wherein the Gita unfolds, and great footnotes on broader context and some previous (academic, mostly "native") interpretations of the particularly knotty bits.
If you get very into it, you'll want to approach the Upanishads next; I only have the Penguin translation myself and it's a very beautiful one, but I can't recommend a particular translation in this case. For a relatively recent Hindu philosopher, you might want to read Vivekananda.
Fiction: Yes, R.K Narayan is a very beloved Indian writer who writes poignantly about small-town Hindus and their moral and human struggles. (In particular, and in order, I'd recommend: The Guide, Swami and Friends and The English Teacher.) More recently, we've had a couple of Booker winners that I think would be approachable and rewarding reads for you: Arundhati Roy's The God of Small Things, and Arvind Adiga's White Tiger. Neither are about Hinduism, but both are about the culture of India, which is, well, predominantly Hindu, and both primarily address how religion is used in regional politics. I've kinda stepped back from the Indian fiction scene myself, but have also heard interesting things about The Temple Goers by Aatish Aseer -- although it seems to be, like much of our current "intellectural" fiction (not to mention intellectual Indians) very cynical. Meh!
Also, Rushdie writes about India -- Midnight's Children, if you haven't read it, is cosmopolitan, sprawling, historical, magnificent! Also Rohinton Mistry's A Fine Balance deals very beautifully with the struggles of various people in post-indepence, pre-globalisation India but with a good bit of socio-historical context. It's an extremely painful read, but in my opinion it mirrors closely the bitter-sweet, mostly tragic fatalism which still infuses much of India.
Finally, if you want to experience Hinduism, there's no better advice than: come visit! There's over 800 million Hindus here, what is considered Hinduism began over 3000 years ago right here, and although not much textual evidence survives, the monuments that do, and their architecture, are incredible and diverse. Plus... coming, visiting and staying is really the only way to see varied practices of Hinduism, and the ways in which it is both deep-rooted and irrelevant, social and personal, philosophic and illogical, ridiculous and meaningful, non-violent and oppressive. And also to appreciate how it adapts to the contingency of time and place.
In my experience, people who come to visit either run away shuddering, never to look back, or always want to come back and often do. Either way, it's a thoroughly unsettling experience that resists description and explanation. :)
posted by mondaygreens at 3:33 PM on July 8, 2010 [9 favorites]
I've written "defububg" up there somewhere - obviously not a word, and now I don't remember what I was trying to type instead.
posted by mondaygreens at 3:46 PM on July 8, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by mondaygreens at 3:46 PM on July 8, 2010 [1 favorite]
Really thoughtful comment, mondaygreens. I think you hit the nail on the head with regards to some of the psychological aspects. I don't agree with you about everything; while I too don't know anybody who loves Hinduism qua Hinduism and I think the idea is absurd, mainly because it's extraordinarily hard to place bounds on it that would make it a definite thing to be loved, I do know some practitioners who could be described as devout and not just pious. I also think you're probably a bit premature in deciding which Hindu tendencies have significantly faded; possibly your social circle does not comprise a cross-section of all Hindus? On the whole, though, a great read.
mondaygreens A couple of things it's not terribly concerned with: logic, and individualism (or, broadly speaking, humanism). This manifests in the "mysticism" we are famous for, but also, most annoyingly for me, in a lack of critical thinking and of mechanistic models which can be used not only to critically discuss philosophical texts but also life and society in general.
Yes — but I would argue that the lack of concern for logical consistency is also partly responsible for the comfort of most Hindus with, e.g., scientific results that contradict an intuitive but incorrect human understanding of the world, or that contradict a literal reading of much of the religious literature. And with India's being a secular democracy instead of a religious state. Meaning that I think the vacuum leaves room for Hindus to be gradually convinced that humanist protections for individuals have a level of importance that they are not yet accorded in India. When that happens, I think some of the Hindu fatalism and learned helplessness may be eased.
One of my colleagues was recently seated next to an Indian businessman in a waiting room. He was delighted to find out that she's a physicist, and he immediately launched into this passionate and not completely coherent old-uncle disquisition on the overlap between quantum mechanics and Hindu philosophy.
When she mentioned it at work, sounding a little dazed, I said something sympathetic like "oh, yeah, I can't tell you how many times I've gotten stuck in that kind of lecture." The look on her face of "you mean this is typical?!" says something about the divide between our experience of the American religiously-influenced wariness toward science, and the Eastern happiness to meld science — and everything else deemed of practical use — into their religious worldview, blithely brushing off any inconsistencies with prior philosophy.
posted by hat at 2:18 AM on July 9, 2010
mondaygreens A couple of things it's not terribly concerned with: logic, and individualism (or, broadly speaking, humanism). This manifests in the "mysticism" we are famous for, but also, most annoyingly for me, in a lack of critical thinking and of mechanistic models which can be used not only to critically discuss philosophical texts but also life and society in general.
Yes — but I would argue that the lack of concern for logical consistency is also partly responsible for the comfort of most Hindus with, e.g., scientific results that contradict an intuitive but incorrect human understanding of the world, or that contradict a literal reading of much of the religious literature. And with India's being a secular democracy instead of a religious state. Meaning that I think the vacuum leaves room for Hindus to be gradually convinced that humanist protections for individuals have a level of importance that they are not yet accorded in India. When that happens, I think some of the Hindu fatalism and learned helplessness may be eased.
One of my colleagues was recently seated next to an Indian businessman in a waiting room. He was delighted to find out that she's a physicist, and he immediately launched into this passionate and not completely coherent old-uncle disquisition on the overlap between quantum mechanics and Hindu philosophy.
When she mentioned it at work, sounding a little dazed, I said something sympathetic like "oh, yeah, I can't tell you how many times I've gotten stuck in that kind of lecture." The look on her face of "you mean this is typical?!" says something about the divide between our experience of the American religiously-influenced wariness toward science, and the Eastern happiness to meld science — and everything else deemed of practical use — into their religious worldview, blithely brushing off any inconsistencies with prior philosophy.
posted by hat at 2:18 AM on July 9, 2010
Mondaygreens: "important or defububg part of their belief"
I think you meant "defining" and were one key off on the keyboard.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:33 AM on July 9, 2010
I think you meant "defining" and were one key off on the keyboard.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:33 AM on July 9, 2010
hat, I agree with much of what you wrote. About the opinion that religiosity is fading - it's mostly because none of the *young* people I know are pious or particularly curious about the texts or the broader tradition. By young I mean just married, or with very little kids, people managing their own houses who really haven't incorporated religion into their daily lives in the same way that my or their parents have. I wouldn't say that they're not religious, and yes, this is a small subset of Hindus - urban, middle to upper middle class, and busy with making a living and/or rising up the corporate ladder. Many young women are now getting a college education and then going on to work, and more generally, many of these young people have not had the time or inclination to learn about rituals or the meanings of prayers from their parents, nor connect with each other over religion the way our families do/did. Modern urban temples, too, are very different from the kind of places where our parents worshiped as youngsters, and the pace of life here, from all accounts, is drastically different from their experiences..
Most young people I know have one or two siblings, at most - not five or eight, like our parents - and their social circle doesn't seem to depend on or be tied into a specific or even umbrella religion... it's much more college or work related, as far as I can tell. Again, like I mentioned, in urban India, the whole communal aspect of religion seems to me to be disintegrating. It's not gone, and I think festivals are still very popular if not more so - but just in my experience, it's changed a lot, and that seems to have many reasons, some of which I mentioned but didn't connect together in my earlier response. Perhaps religion will just change, and become more personal and less social - or it will become mostly social but also more impersonal - or I could just be wrong and the young people I am considering right now will become more devoted or what have you as they grow older. In any case, I will hopefully be revising my opinion and trying to broaden / sharpen my view as time goes on.
As for the other thing, I couldn't agree with you more... I think Hindus (broadly speaking) tend not to be too deeply invested in their own, necessarily narrow perspectives of reality and seem to me quite open when it comes to accepting new and varied science, maybe even (relatively) more able to indulge in abstract thinking. (I sometimes wonder if this is related to all the symbolism and the lack of much text and art which relates to or illuminates our own specific experiences.) And yes, the philosophy seems inherently secular as well, which I think is extremely cool, and I too am optimistic than we can move towards some kind of Hindu humanism.
My gripe I guess is more with our messed up education system, which seems to me - I think I went to a fairly typical school, or maybe better than some - not at all concerned with giving kids the tools to think or decide for themselves in life, and mostly focused on turning out people who can be eligible and, depending on their own aptitude and commitment, competitive for getting jobs. So let's say I'm having the humanism argument with someone; it's not necessarily that I'll have a hard time convincing them but rather that I'm not sure I've really convinced them, when they don't seem very clear about how to decide the relative trueness and/or value of one argument, as opposed to all the arguments and advertising and some of the hysteria that we're bombarded with in the media etc. I mean I know this education model is praaactical and all; I know we have to be practical, for the most part, but, oh! I have issues with how important and valued "pragmatism" is. That said, I think as people earn more and are better able to asset their own rights, both of which are already happening, the education system will get better and more democratic as well.
Eyebrows McGee, you are totally right, thank you for that. (I actually followed your best answer mentioned in my contact activity to this question - and decided to try to add to it, late as I was.)
posted by mondaygreens at 9:32 AM on July 9, 2010
Most young people I know have one or two siblings, at most - not five or eight, like our parents - and their social circle doesn't seem to depend on or be tied into a specific or even umbrella religion... it's much more college or work related, as far as I can tell. Again, like I mentioned, in urban India, the whole communal aspect of religion seems to me to be disintegrating. It's not gone, and I think festivals are still very popular if not more so - but just in my experience, it's changed a lot, and that seems to have many reasons, some of which I mentioned but didn't connect together in my earlier response. Perhaps religion will just change, and become more personal and less social - or it will become mostly social but also more impersonal - or I could just be wrong and the young people I am considering right now will become more devoted or what have you as they grow older. In any case, I will hopefully be revising my opinion and trying to broaden / sharpen my view as time goes on.
As for the other thing, I couldn't agree with you more... I think Hindus (broadly speaking) tend not to be too deeply invested in their own, necessarily narrow perspectives of reality and seem to me quite open when it comes to accepting new and varied science, maybe even (relatively) more able to indulge in abstract thinking. (I sometimes wonder if this is related to all the symbolism and the lack of much text and art which relates to or illuminates our own specific experiences.) And yes, the philosophy seems inherently secular as well, which I think is extremely cool, and I too am optimistic than we can move towards some kind of Hindu humanism.
My gripe I guess is more with our messed up education system, which seems to me - I think I went to a fairly typical school, or maybe better than some - not at all concerned with giving kids the tools to think or decide for themselves in life, and mostly focused on turning out people who can be eligible and, depending on their own aptitude and commitment, competitive for getting jobs. So let's say I'm having the humanism argument with someone; it's not necessarily that I'll have a hard time convincing them but rather that I'm not sure I've really convinced them, when they don't seem very clear about how to decide the relative trueness and/or value of one argument, as opposed to all the arguments and advertising and some of the hysteria that we're bombarded with in the media etc. I mean I know this education model is praaactical and all; I know we have to be practical, for the most part, but, oh! I have issues with how important and valued "pragmatism" is. That said, I think as people earn more and are better able to asset their own rights, both of which are already happening, the education system will get better and more democratic as well.
Eyebrows McGee, you are totally right, thank you for that. (I actually followed your best answer mentioned in my contact activity to this question - and decided to try to add to it, late as I was.)
posted by mondaygreens at 9:32 AM on July 9, 2010
Response by poster: Holy cow, thank you all so much! mondaygreens, that was absolutely fantastic--very much the first step in "getting my feet wet" right there.
The idea of a spiritual truth that one passionately believes in (on the one hand) yet also may rationally reject is one that I've been very interested in for some time--I look forward to learning more about how folks live with that.
I'll start with Darsan, The Guide, and that version of the Bhagavad Gita, and see if I can find any of those comics on Devon St. that hat mentioned.
Sadly, the Peoria temple is probably too far to travel. Tragically, Delhi is much too far. Still, fair warning mondaygreens--if I win the lotto, you might get an unexpected visitor! Seriously, I have wanted to visit India since reading Midnight's Children and The Ground Beneath Her Feet.
Also a fascinating sidenote about Hindu vs. Christian relationships to Science. This is great!
posted by Squid Voltaire at 1:08 PM on July 9, 2010
The idea of a spiritual truth that one passionately believes in (on the one hand) yet also may rationally reject is one that I've been very interested in for some time--I look forward to learning more about how folks live with that.
I'll start with Darsan, The Guide, and that version of the Bhagavad Gita, and see if I can find any of those comics on Devon St. that hat mentioned.
Sadly, the Peoria temple is probably too far to travel. Tragically, Delhi is much too far. Still, fair warning mondaygreens--if I win the lotto, you might get an unexpected visitor! Seriously, I have wanted to visit India since reading Midnight's Children and The Ground Beneath Her Feet.
Also a fascinating sidenote about Hindu vs. Christian relationships to Science. This is great!
posted by Squid Voltaire at 1:08 PM on July 9, 2010
Response by poster: Oh--meant to add that it sounds like Ghandi's autobiography is something I should read post haste, as well, especially because I'm quite interested in him as a person, as well.
posted by Squid Voltaire at 1:11 PM on July 9, 2010
posted by Squid Voltaire at 1:11 PM on July 9, 2010
Hell, this thread has kind of convinced me that I ought to reread Gandhi myself. Let me know if you start it, Squid Voltaire, I'd be interested to compare notes with you.
posted by hat at 4:01 PM on July 9, 2010
posted by hat at 4:01 PM on July 9, 2010
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