How to react to only probable guilt-tripping?
June 20, 2010 1:06 AM Subscribe
How to react to possible, but not sure, guilt-tripping?
Dear Hivemind,
my semi-ex during fights sometimes said:
"I'm not important to you." or "How would you rank me in the most important things in your life? Definitely not among the first ten." This happened in the first three months of our long-distance relationship, during phonefights.
How do you address something like that? I tried to reassure her, but a "no, you are important" does not really help.
I know it is horrible to feel not appreciated and it needs to be addressed in a relationship. And I should appreciate she was honest and precise instead of hiding it behind a "you never do x" accusation.
But I still resented it because I felt she was trying to guilt trip me, albeit unconsciously. At first I really felt guilty and scared, but numbed over time.
Is it normal? Did I mess up royally that this problem even arose?
Should I have said so in that moment? Or maybe give in, do everything to make her feel desired and then speak to her about it in a better moment? If it was really just a honest concern, I didn't want to discourage her from voicing these by accusing her of dishonest motives.
I searched through the archives but did not find the example of a guilt trip subtle enough to be possibly nonexistent.
I'm afraid this problem is mostly academically now, but I'm still interested in answers. (I'm not interested in therapy, though ;-))
tl;dr
If you have the feeling your girlfriend is guilt-tripping you, but she most likely isn't, what to do?
Dear Hivemind,
my semi-ex during fights sometimes said:
"I'm not important to you." or "How would you rank me in the most important things in your life? Definitely not among the first ten." This happened in the first three months of our long-distance relationship, during phonefights.
How do you address something like that? I tried to reassure her, but a "no, you are important" does not really help.
I know it is horrible to feel not appreciated and it needs to be addressed in a relationship. And I should appreciate she was honest and precise instead of hiding it behind a "you never do x" accusation.
But I still resented it because I felt she was trying to guilt trip me, albeit unconsciously. At first I really felt guilty and scared, but numbed over time.
Is it normal? Did I mess up royally that this problem even arose?
Should I have said so in that moment? Or maybe give in, do everything to make her feel desired and then speak to her about it in a better moment? If it was really just a honest concern, I didn't want to discourage her from voicing these by accusing her of dishonest motives.
I searched through the archives but did not find the example of a guilt trip subtle enough to be possibly nonexistent.
I'm afraid this problem is mostly academically now, but I'm still interested in answers. (I'm not interested in therapy, though ;-))
tl;dr
If you have the feeling your girlfriend is guilt-tripping you, but she most likely isn't, what to do?
First: "I'm not ranked in the top ten things in your life!" is indeed a guilt trip. She should end that kind of communication.
Secondly, though, and this is a crappy reality - long distance relationships kind of operate by rules of their own. Things come out of the mouths of LDR participants on the phone that would NEVER be spoken if you were a, umm, same-town couple. It's extremely frustrating to put your faith and love into someone you can see but 2-3 times a year. Could we get some more info? Why is this long-distance? In particular, did you or she move AFTER the relationship was formed, or did you head into it knowing what would happen?
posted by deep thought sunstar at 1:36 AM on June 20, 2010
Secondly, though, and this is a crappy reality - long distance relationships kind of operate by rules of their own. Things come out of the mouths of LDR participants on the phone that would NEVER be spoken if you were a, umm, same-town couple. It's extremely frustrating to put your faith and love into someone you can see but 2-3 times a year. Could we get some more info? Why is this long-distance? In particular, did you or she move AFTER the relationship was formed, or did you head into it knowing what would happen?
posted by deep thought sunstar at 1:36 AM on June 20, 2010
The issue to me is that she was making statements that presumed she could see inside your head, when it would have been better for her to make statements about what was going on inside her head or to ask questions about what was going on inside yours.
posted by salvia at 1:41 AM on June 20, 2010
posted by salvia at 1:41 AM on June 20, 2010
Best answer: I'm currently on the other side of this. Someone claims I'm not unimportant, but has not done anything that would suggest this for the better part of a year, while doing an awful lot to show the opposite (repeatedly standing me up, continually letting me down, etc)
In my case, in addition to not caring, she might not be aware of extend of her actions. She knows she's a terrible flake, but may be assuming that she's come through a few times (because for most people she has) not realising that in this particular case, she actually has a straight run of no evidence in favour that I'm aware of, and a shocking record of shitty behaviour against.
Or in other words, when I suggest I'm unimportant to her, it's more than a feeling - I can back it up with concrete examples of her decisions related to me.
So in future situations, bypass the guilt-trip by discussing and perhaps helping to resolve the topic: ask what things are giving the impression of unimportance (don't demand examples - many people will be unable to give any on the spot, but at least suggest that the person tell you when an example occurs in future), and offer examples of concrete things that you have done because you care.
If you give examples of behaviour that you think demonstrates that you care, and she gives examples of behaviour that makes her think otherwise, and you both get that all on the table where you can both look at it, you'll have a much easier time resolving the issue.
If you situation is anything like mine, you'll both have examples the other is unaware of.
And naturally, if you can't think of concrete things you've done because you do care, the problem isn't in her possible guilt-trip, it's in the mirror :)
posted by -harlequin- at 1:42 AM on June 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
In my case, in addition to not caring, she might not be aware of extend of her actions. She knows she's a terrible flake, but may be assuming that she's come through a few times (because for most people she has) not realising that in this particular case, she actually has a straight run of no evidence in favour that I'm aware of, and a shocking record of shitty behaviour against.
Or in other words, when I suggest I'm unimportant to her, it's more than a feeling - I can back it up with concrete examples of her decisions related to me.
So in future situations, bypass the guilt-trip by discussing and perhaps helping to resolve the topic: ask what things are giving the impression of unimportance (don't demand examples - many people will be unable to give any on the spot, but at least suggest that the person tell you when an example occurs in future), and offer examples of concrete things that you have done because you care.
If you give examples of behaviour that you think demonstrates that you care, and she gives examples of behaviour that makes her think otherwise, and you both get that all on the table where you can both look at it, you'll have a much easier time resolving the issue.
If you situation is anything like mine, you'll both have examples the other is unaware of.
And naturally, if you can't think of concrete things you've done because you do care, the problem isn't in her possible guilt-trip, it's in the mirror :)
posted by -harlequin- at 1:42 AM on June 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Just IMO, this is not a "guilt trip" - this is what I would classify as "insecure whining and a cry for attention and/or fishing for compliments" When I think guilt trip, I think, "Why do you hurt me by doing that thing that is perfectly harmless that you like to do? Don't you think I deserve better than that? When you're depressed, I get depressed, it's not fair to me!" things like that. Basically, much more accusatory. I get the sense that your ex was not trying to inspire guilt so much as honesty.
posted by Nixy at 1:48 AM on June 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Nixy at 1:48 AM on June 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
Best answer: As you phrase it there she was putting words in your mouth, which is a crappy and manipulative rhetorical tactic and so is perhaps what raised your hackles.
But I would ignore that and not mention it and act as though she has actually said "I feel like I'm not important to you." So logically the best way to respond ought to be by saying something equivalent to "What can I do to make you feel like you're more important to me? Because you definitely are, so I want to make sure I'm showing it to you." and continuing on to have a sincere conversation about what could make her feel better about this part of the relationship.
However, relationships often operate outside the realm of logic. She might just generally be feeling unimportant in her life for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with you and which hence you cannot fix, but she's irrationally transferring it to you and taking it out on you. Or she could be seeking affirmation from you for some reason that isn't really related to how important she feels.
posted by XMLicious at 1:52 AM on June 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
But I would ignore that and not mention it and act as though she has actually said "I feel like I'm not important to you." So logically the best way to respond ought to be by saying something equivalent to "What can I do to make you feel like you're more important to me? Because you definitely are, so I want to make sure I'm showing it to you." and continuing on to have a sincere conversation about what could make her feel better about this part of the relationship.
However, relationships often operate outside the realm of logic. She might just generally be feeling unimportant in her life for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with you and which hence you cannot fix, but she's irrationally transferring it to you and taking it out on you. Or she could be seeking affirmation from you for some reason that isn't really related to how important she feels.
posted by XMLicious at 1:52 AM on June 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Yeah, someone's allowed to say that it Feels to Them like they are unimportant to you, but that wording is aggressive. If the person were important enough to you that you wanted to have a conversation about how important they are to you and to ask what it is that will help them Feel important, go for it (google the five languages of love if They don't know either).
Put that way, that sort of statement is all about guilt, which doesn't help. Try to turn the conversation to a team-oriented solution instead. Once you get down to the real problem (they feel unimportant), start asking questions like, "How can we deal with this? As a team?". There's obviously a lot more communication that needs to happen in there, like why guilt-tripping isn't helpful, and how the two of you can talk about these things in a more constructive way. But you can at least shift things toward the constructive.
posted by ldthomps at 1:53 AM on June 20, 2010
Put that way, that sort of statement is all about guilt, which doesn't help. Try to turn the conversation to a team-oriented solution instead. Once you get down to the real problem (they feel unimportant), start asking questions like, "How can we deal with this? As a team?". There's obviously a lot more communication that needs to happen in there, like why guilt-tripping isn't helpful, and how the two of you can talk about these things in a more constructive way. But you can at least shift things toward the constructive.
posted by ldthomps at 1:53 AM on June 20, 2010
Best answer: She might not mean "I'm not important to you" as an accusation, guilt-trip or passive aggressive baiting for drama. She might just be asking you, in an oblique and insecure way, to reassure her or make her feel better about herself. Admittedly it's not the best way to go about it, but it might be one way she has of expressing her needs without making herself too vulnerable.
Regardless, you can't address this without first accepting her perspective as legitimate - because to her, it is. She has her reasons, it's just that you don't know them and cannot see them. Focus on the fact that you actually do value her and want her to see that she is important.
So next time she says something like that, you have to ground the conversation and ask her to clarify what she means without making her feel attacked. You could begin by responding that her saying that makes you feel that you are doing something wrong, or not doing something enough. That you take such words seriously and then spend a lot of time going over what might be making her feel this way and how you could fix this (for both of you) - because, ultimately, she is important and you want to show her that in a way that she recognizes. Let her know that you don't understand where she's coming from but want to.
Basically, ask her to help you see her point of view - why she feels this way and whether there's specific things, actions or events that have contributed to it. If she is willing to talk about her reasons, great! Don't get worked up if she's misinterpreted you; focus instead on clearing up misconceptions. If it's just a vague idea in her head about what a boyfriend should do (that you are not doing) - talk about that. If she can't think of any specific things or doesn't want to share, tell her to let you know the next time something like that happens that makes her feel this way.
It takes a lot of time and work to feel secure in a consensual relationship, and women generally have a harder time of it. I think the fact that her statements bother you so much is a good thing - it already refutes her suspicion, and if you let her know even that much, she will probably choose her words with more care in the future.
posted by mondaygreens at 1:57 AM on June 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
Regardless, you can't address this without first accepting her perspective as legitimate - because to her, it is. She has her reasons, it's just that you don't know them and cannot see them. Focus on the fact that you actually do value her and want her to see that she is important.
So next time she says something like that, you have to ground the conversation and ask her to clarify what she means without making her feel attacked. You could begin by responding that her saying that makes you feel that you are doing something wrong, or not doing something enough. That you take such words seriously and then spend a lot of time going over what might be making her feel this way and how you could fix this (for both of you) - because, ultimately, she is important and you want to show her that in a way that she recognizes. Let her know that you don't understand where she's coming from but want to.
Basically, ask her to help you see her point of view - why she feels this way and whether there's specific things, actions or events that have contributed to it. If she is willing to talk about her reasons, great! Don't get worked up if she's misinterpreted you; focus instead on clearing up misconceptions. If it's just a vague idea in her head about what a boyfriend should do (that you are not doing) - talk about that. If she can't think of any specific things or doesn't want to share, tell her to let you know the next time something like that happens that makes her feel this way.
It takes a lot of time and work to feel secure in a consensual relationship, and women generally have a harder time of it. I think the fact that her statements bother you so much is a good thing - it already refutes her suspicion, and if you let her know even that much, she will probably choose her words with more care in the future.
posted by mondaygreens at 1:57 AM on June 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
Ah since this is your semi-ex, I don't know what use my above answer is, or even why exactly you asked the question. If it's semi-over, let me just say - you didn't fuck up. Probably she was insecure (long distance is tough!), there were some blind spots in your communication and she jumped to those misinterpretations which aligned with her feeling generally undervalued.
In other words, it wasn't about you. Now, what's a semi-ex?
posted by mondaygreens at 2:03 AM on June 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
In other words, it wasn't about you. Now, what's a semi-ex?
posted by mondaygreens at 2:03 AM on June 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Wow, thanks a lot for the advice! There is really a lot to think about.
Picking out best answers will be difficult. I will definitely look into the "five languages of love".
Some background information some of you asked for:
These exact sentences were in the past, but the issue keeps coming up.
We got together after knowing each other for two weeks, about 9 months ago. We lived about three hours apart and were able to visit each other about every other weekend. Even then I already had made the preparations for a semester abroad, to which I left half a year later. She did not want me to leave, I did not want to cancel something important to me I had already arranged before we met. She then applied for a year abroad, scheduled to begin a few days before I would return. Because of this, I assumed she would have no problem with turning a MDR into a VLDR for one and a half year. I now know, assuming something was not a wise course of action.
To conclude: I did indeed not prioritize her in a question important to her. Partly, because I thought the resentment about feeling chained down would harm the relationship more than a semester abroad would. I did show her I cared about her in other ways, though.
Our relationship eroded after I left, we broke up somewhat mutually two months after that. So yes, she had a point there.
I try to understand her, once wrote two weeks leading up to a fight from her perspective. It just seems I'm not very good at it.
Our post-breakup conversation was one of the most open and honest communications we had.
We both hinted we might be willing to give it another try when we are in the same country again. (Therefore semi-ex.) So while this situation is not current, something similar might well happen again and I want to be prepared. That is the reason for asking this question. (Maybe I'm just overthinking it.)
posted by Triton at 2:45 AM on June 20, 2010
Picking out best answers will be difficult. I will definitely look into the "five languages of love".
Some background information some of you asked for:
These exact sentences were in the past, but the issue keeps coming up.
We got together after knowing each other for two weeks, about 9 months ago. We lived about three hours apart and were able to visit each other about every other weekend. Even then I already had made the preparations for a semester abroad, to which I left half a year later. She did not want me to leave, I did not want to cancel something important to me I had already arranged before we met. She then applied for a year abroad, scheduled to begin a few days before I would return. Because of this, I assumed she would have no problem with turning a MDR into a VLDR for one and a half year. I now know, assuming something was not a wise course of action.
To conclude: I did indeed not prioritize her in a question important to her. Partly, because I thought the resentment about feeling chained down would harm the relationship more than a semester abroad would. I did show her I cared about her in other ways, though.
Our relationship eroded after I left, we broke up somewhat mutually two months after that. So yes, she had a point there.
I try to understand her, once wrote two weeks leading up to a fight from her perspective. It just seems I'm not very good at it.
Our post-breakup conversation was one of the most open and honest communications we had.
We both hinted we might be willing to give it another try when we are in the same country again. (Therefore semi-ex.) So while this situation is not current, something similar might well happen again and I want to be prepared. That is the reason for asking this question. (Maybe I'm just overthinking it.)
posted by Triton at 2:45 AM on June 20, 2010
In the context of your explanation, I would say she was definitely trying to manipulate you. She was trying to guilt you into not doing something that was important to you because it was what she wanted. She then sought the same thing without consulting you. She either did this to be passive aggressive, or she just does not care about what you want. Either way, do you really want to start again with someone that selfish?
posted by bluloo at 5:52 AM on June 20, 2010
posted by bluloo at 5:52 AM on June 20, 2010
Best answer: Uh, whoa dude... in my estimation "I love you baby but I'm leaving the country" is kind of stretching it, even for a Greek sea god. That's a little more than "you never do x"; I was thinking "x" was something more like "take me out to dinner" or "take enough time off of work / hobby to be with me". At the very least this doesn't fit with insecure whining as Nixy named it before that explanation.
If she knew about your plans to go abroad from the beginning she probably should have handled the whole situation better and with more forethought, she should have spoken more carefully, and she quite possibly has been unfair to you in some respects. But it sounds to me like you really are at a point in your life when there are things like this semester overseas that are more important than relationships.
I think that's probably the way it should be at certain points in one's life, to everything there is a season et cetera, though that can be hard to realize. Possibly you both succumbed to some degree of over-idealizing love. Calling the whole thing off until the time when and if your ships cross in the night again was probably a wise decision for you guys to make.
posted by XMLicious at 6:30 AM on June 20, 2010 [2 favorites]
If she knew about your plans to go abroad from the beginning she probably should have handled the whole situation better and with more forethought, she should have spoken more carefully, and she quite possibly has been unfair to you in some respects. But it sounds to me like you really are at a point in your life when there are things like this semester overseas that are more important than relationships.
I think that's probably the way it should be at certain points in one's life, to everything there is a season et cetera, though that can be hard to realize. Possibly you both succumbed to some degree of over-idealizing love. Calling the whole thing off until the time when and if your ships cross in the night again was probably a wise decision for you guys to make.
posted by XMLicious at 6:30 AM on June 20, 2010 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: to bluloo:
She did consult me regarding her year abroad. I didn't have a problem with it. I only was confused that even then my semester was seen as something wrong.
to XMLicious:
I guess you are right. Your phrasing made me chuckle, even if the topic itself is not funny.
posted by Triton at 7:26 AM on June 20, 2010
She did consult me regarding her year abroad. I didn't have a problem with it. I only was confused that even then my semester was seen as something wrong.
to XMLicious:
I guess you are right. Your phrasing made me chuckle, even if the topic itself is not funny.
posted by Triton at 7:26 AM on June 20, 2010
She did consult me regarding her year abroad. I didn't have a problem with it. I only was confused that even then my semester was seen as something wrong.
You're leaving for a semester, this makes her feel like she's not that important to you. So she applied for a year abroad, as if to say "If you are so OK with us being apart, let's see how you like it if I leave for A WHOLE YEAR!" This is supposed to be your cue to say "No no, don't leave, I can't bear to be without you!" but instead you said "OK, that's cool", proving to her that you don't really care that much about her, or at least, that you aren't as committed to the relationship as she is. And she's probably right about that, even though she's reacting to it in an immature way.
A more philosophical point: your situation is a typical tension in a relationship. You want to live abroad for a semester for your own enjoyment, she thinks this will harm your relationship, so what do you do? The general advice is never give up what you want to do for the sake of someone else because this will cause you to resent them, and this implies a naive ideal of a relationship where two people are perfectly compatible and never come into real conflict over life choices, your primary commitment is to your own personal satisfaction and self-actualization, and the ideal partner is someone who never disrupts your carefully laid plans. There's a reasonable balance between the needs of the self and the needs of the relationship, and we should distinguish that from the narcissistic fantasy of a relationship without any sacrifice at all. Intrinsic to a relationship is that the other person is different from you, with conflicting desires and needs at times. Trying to eliminate this completely is a desire for an ersatz relationship, a non-relationship with someone who is exactly like you. We can imagine an ad for this: is your hyper-individualism and fetishizing autonomy making you lonely? Have a relationship with a carbon copy of yourself! This is the logic of sugar-free sugar - same great taste, but no calories! The same great feeling of love and connection, but without the "bad" part of occasionally having to make sacrifices for someone.
posted by AlsoMike at 1:11 PM on June 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
You're leaving for a semester, this makes her feel like she's not that important to you. So she applied for a year abroad, as if to say "If you are so OK with us being apart, let's see how you like it if I leave for A WHOLE YEAR!" This is supposed to be your cue to say "No no, don't leave, I can't bear to be without you!" but instead you said "OK, that's cool", proving to her that you don't really care that much about her, or at least, that you aren't as committed to the relationship as she is. And she's probably right about that, even though she's reacting to it in an immature way.
A more philosophical point: your situation is a typical tension in a relationship. You want to live abroad for a semester for your own enjoyment, she thinks this will harm your relationship, so what do you do? The general advice is never give up what you want to do for the sake of someone else because this will cause you to resent them, and this implies a naive ideal of a relationship where two people are perfectly compatible and never come into real conflict over life choices, your primary commitment is to your own personal satisfaction and self-actualization, and the ideal partner is someone who never disrupts your carefully laid plans. There's a reasonable balance between the needs of the self and the needs of the relationship, and we should distinguish that from the narcissistic fantasy of a relationship without any sacrifice at all. Intrinsic to a relationship is that the other person is different from you, with conflicting desires and needs at times. Trying to eliminate this completely is a desire for an ersatz relationship, a non-relationship with someone who is exactly like you. We can imagine an ad for this: is your hyper-individualism and fetishizing autonomy making you lonely? Have a relationship with a carbon copy of yourself! This is the logic of sugar-free sugar - same great taste, but no calories! The same great feeling of love and connection, but without the "bad" part of occasionally having to make sacrifices for someone.
posted by AlsoMike at 1:11 PM on June 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
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to my mind - someone who says "How would you rank me in the most important things in your life? Definitely not among the first ten." is not trying to communicate and is trying to pick or continue a fight. i would assume passive aggressive, controlling, and manipulative.
on to the broader topic - your semi-ex long distance girlfriend who only a couple months into the relationship was saying anything that had you reacting with "guilty and scared" is not a worthwhile relationship. relationships should be work, but they shouldn't be backbreaking work.
posted by nadawi at 1:20 AM on June 20, 2010 [2 favorites]