How do I effectively complain about a superior? And to whom?
June 8, 2010 2:04 PM Subscribe
How do I complain about a manager without gossiping, whining, or shooting myself in the foot?
This person is a superior (VP of a department), but not my direct boss. She consistently makes work harder for everybody by valuing process over product.
Recent example:
She asked me for a Excel list of information, two columns, simple stuff she has just as much access to and ability to do as I do. In order to avoid inter-departmental strife, I just spent the 30 seconds to do it for her instead of arguing about it. I sent it to her, and got an email that she would ask a coworker (also not on her team) to "format it for her." Later that day, the non-computer-savvy coworker came over with a past example of what the VP wanted, and said the VP asked that I show her how to do it. Basically, she wants the one long list to be printed out as three side-by-side columns to fit on one page. This entails going a third down the list, cutting the bottom off, pasting next to the top and repeating once. The work of literally seconds.
The VP is experienced both with Excel and even Access, so this isn't a matter of it being outside her skill-set. As I mentioned earlier, she also has access to the information. What would have taken her a couple of minutes to do herself has ended up taking two days between emails, her talking directly to my coworker, etc.
Why she does this, I am not sure. She claims to be busy, but as I said, delegating this took her more time than doing it herself.
This is just one example. There has been email chains five or more messages long about who can check on the contact information of a client, and when I am finally included I just call them up directly and solve it immediately. She also likes to review any work anyone does, and always will submit unimportant changes, often introducing errors into a spotless document. And so on.
My direct boss (also a VP) has asked me to CC him on all my out-of-department correspondence, and has been generally good at going to bat to stop people from giving me their crap work, but the problem VP likes to name drop people higher in the chain (and has been caught in lies doing this!) and is generally an office politics nightmare, so it is often easier to simply placate her.
It is not just a conflict of personalities; in the last three years seven people under her supervision have quit or transfered to other departments (in three cases within months after she became their boss), and several have apparently told HR they were leaving because of her in their exit interviews. While there is some fluctuation at my office, her department is definitely a statistical anomaly.
There are other issues as well, such as blame shifting and taking credit for successes not her own, but the main problem is that she creates unnecessary work which she then makes extremely difficult to do efficiently.
Do I go to HR and complain? In the event nothing is done, I don't want to cause even more trouble with my department's interactions with her (we are sister-departments, so we meet regularly). Is this something I should put on one of those anonymous suggestion slips?
My direct supervisor is a great boss, so I don't want to quit because someone in another department drives me mad for five minutes every other day.
This person is a superior (VP of a department), but not my direct boss. She consistently makes work harder for everybody by valuing process over product.
Recent example:
She asked me for a Excel list of information, two columns, simple stuff she has just as much access to and ability to do as I do. In order to avoid inter-departmental strife, I just spent the 30 seconds to do it for her instead of arguing about it. I sent it to her, and got an email that she would ask a coworker (also not on her team) to "format it for her." Later that day, the non-computer-savvy coworker came over with a past example of what the VP wanted, and said the VP asked that I show her how to do it. Basically, she wants the one long list to be printed out as three side-by-side columns to fit on one page. This entails going a third down the list, cutting the bottom off, pasting next to the top and repeating once. The work of literally seconds.
The VP is experienced both with Excel and even Access, so this isn't a matter of it being outside her skill-set. As I mentioned earlier, she also has access to the information. What would have taken her a couple of minutes to do herself has ended up taking two days between emails, her talking directly to my coworker, etc.
Why she does this, I am not sure. She claims to be busy, but as I said, delegating this took her more time than doing it herself.
This is just one example. There has been email chains five or more messages long about who can check on the contact information of a client, and when I am finally included I just call them up directly and solve it immediately. She also likes to review any work anyone does, and always will submit unimportant changes, often introducing errors into a spotless document. And so on.
My direct boss (also a VP) has asked me to CC him on all my out-of-department correspondence, and has been generally good at going to bat to stop people from giving me their crap work, but the problem VP likes to name drop people higher in the chain (and has been caught in lies doing this!) and is generally an office politics nightmare, so it is often easier to simply placate her.
It is not just a conflict of personalities; in the last three years seven people under her supervision have quit or transfered to other departments (in three cases within months after she became their boss), and several have apparently told HR they were leaving because of her in their exit interviews. While there is some fluctuation at my office, her department is definitely a statistical anomaly.
There are other issues as well, such as blame shifting and taking credit for successes not her own, but the main problem is that she creates unnecessary work which she then makes extremely difficult to do efficiently.
Do I go to HR and complain? In the event nothing is done, I don't want to cause even more trouble with my department's interactions with her (we are sister-departments, so we meet regularly). Is this something I should put on one of those anonymous suggestion slips?
My direct supervisor is a great boss, so I don't want to quit because someone in another department drives me mad for five minutes every other day.
This is theoretically exactly what HR is for. I say theoretically because I've worked at a few places where I would not have trusted the HR person with info like this, but I have also worked places where I felt completely safe saying anything I needed to in a confidential meeting. That's what it's supposed to be like.
If you do, I wouldn't approach it as "complaining." I would simply and quietly request a meeting with the appropriate HR person, lay out the facts in a non-complainy and non-threatening way, and very clearly elucidate how this person is affecting business and work environments.
posted by ORthey at 2:10 PM on June 8, 2010 [1 favorite]
If you do, I wouldn't approach it as "complaining." I would simply and quietly request a meeting with the appropriate HR person, lay out the facts in a non-complainy and non-threatening way, and very clearly elucidate how this person is affecting business and work environments.
posted by ORthey at 2:10 PM on June 8, 2010 [1 favorite]
Run everything she asks you to do through your boss. Present it as, "My boss wants me to be working on these three things. You want me to be working on this one. I am going to ask him what my priorities should be." Email him rather than going to him right at that moment, and don't do anything until he emails you back. Hell, talk to him about your plan and tell him not to answer those emails right off the bat. Make yourself annoying about processes, and she'll either see that it's too much work to get you involved, or your boss will finally sac up and tell her to stay off your (and indirectly his) back.
HR won't touch this with a ten-foot pole. Nothing you've described is remotely illegal, immoral or fattening, and it isn't HR's job to make sure people play nice. An anonymous note will only touch off a witch hunt.
posted by Etrigan at 2:28 PM on June 8, 2010 [7 favorites]
HR won't touch this with a ten-foot pole. Nothing you've described is remotely illegal, immoral or fattening, and it isn't HR's job to make sure people play nice. An anonymous note will only touch off a witch hunt.
posted by Etrigan at 2:28 PM on June 8, 2010 [7 favorites]
Wait, you mean "ability to make the most mundane Excel task an multi-person task that almost seems like it needs it's own project code billing number" isn't a job requirement for corporate VPs? Could have fooled me.
What I'm saying is, I feel your pain, and know it can be frustrating.
Still.I would probably just do it. When I'm asked to do something like this for somebody more important than me, I usually just grit my teeth, make it look pretty, and do it fast with no complaints. As much as I hate it, for all the complex stuff I've done for companies in the past, it's been the shit work for the right people (and me having the right attitude) that has got me just as much attention/recognition. The way I look at it, I'm salaried, so they pay me the same for if I'm wearing my "senior business requirements analyst" hat or my "overpaid administrative assistant" hat.
But if this was preventing me from doing what I considered my "real job" -- which is the only reason I would make a big deal out of it, as any other reason (like how it made me feel) I would consider petty/whining/shooting myself in the foot -- I would go to my management and present it as such: not that I won't/shouldn't do it or that I feel it's a waste of my time/talents, but that doing it this way is making me unable to do what is really expected of me and maybe we should talk about the way work is assigned.
I know that my management would have my back in this situation; it sounds like yours would too, based on what you said about CC'ing out-of-department requests.
If you can't come up with any reasons to present it to others that don't feel like "gossiping, whining, or shooting myself in the foot", you might be better of just doing it. But it doesn't sound like this is the case, so just start re-framing it that way: not thinking of why it would be preferable for the VP should do it, but why you doing it is not preferable.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 2:30 PM on June 8, 2010 [7 favorites]
What I'm saying is, I feel your pain, and know it can be frustrating.
Still.I would probably just do it. When I'm asked to do something like this for somebody more important than me, I usually just grit my teeth, make it look pretty, and do it fast with no complaints. As much as I hate it, for all the complex stuff I've done for companies in the past, it's been the shit work for the right people (and me having the right attitude) that has got me just as much attention/recognition. The way I look at it, I'm salaried, so they pay me the same for if I'm wearing my "senior business requirements analyst" hat or my "overpaid administrative assistant" hat.
But if this was preventing me from doing what I considered my "real job" -- which is the only reason I would make a big deal out of it, as any other reason (like how it made me feel) I would consider petty/whining/shooting myself in the foot -- I would go to my management and present it as such: not that I won't/shouldn't do it or that I feel it's a waste of my time/talents, but that doing it this way is making me unable to do what is really expected of me and maybe we should talk about the way work is assigned.
I know that my management would have my back in this situation; it sounds like yours would too, based on what you said about CC'ing out-of-department requests.
If you can't come up with any reasons to present it to others that don't feel like "gossiping, whining, or shooting myself in the foot", you might be better of just doing it. But it doesn't sound like this is the case, so just start re-framing it that way: not thinking of why it would be preferable for the VP should do it, but why you doing it is not preferable.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 2:30 PM on June 8, 2010 [7 favorites]
Assuming you have been correctly informed about what people say in their exit interviews HR already know this person is a problem and have decided that nothing is to be done..............
posted by koahiatamadl at 2:31 PM on June 8, 2010
posted by koahiatamadl at 2:31 PM on June 8, 2010
oops...end should read:
not thinking of why it would be preferable for the VP to do it, but why you doing it is not preferable.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 2:31 PM on June 8, 2010
not thinking of why it would be preferable for the VP to do it, but why you doing it is not preferable.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 2:31 PM on June 8, 2010
My direct boss (also a VP) has asked me to CC him on all my out-of-department correspondence
I can't tell if you are already CCing your boss on the emails to this VP or not. If you are and if your boss doesn't think it needs to stop, there isn't anything else you can/should do. If you are not CCing your boss, do so.
posted by CathyG at 2:32 PM on June 8, 2010 [1 favorite]
I can't tell if you are already CCing your boss on the emails to this VP or not. If you are and if your boss doesn't think it needs to stop, there isn't anything else you can/should do. If you are not CCing your boss, do so.
posted by CathyG at 2:32 PM on June 8, 2010 [1 favorite]
If this is your complaint, you should not take it anywhere, because there is noplace you will get with it except in trouble.
If she is truly a bad manager (and I believe you when you say that she is), your example is not a good one. You are basically saying that she is delegating tasks that she could do herself, or that you do not think are worth doing.
Let me tell you a little something about delegation from a management perspective: It is very hard. You do not just delegate what you don't know how to do or can't do. Nobody is served by that: You spend time doing things that most anybody else could do (instead of the valuable skill you are paid very highly for: management), and nobody learns how to do the things that got you to the place you are!
You delegate whatever you can. When you are in a management position, and you are required to know a lot about what's going on, and make management decisions, you should not spend one whit of time doing something that someone else can do. This is very hard: People will often get annoyed and think you should just do it yourself. But it's work, it's business, and people are going to get annoyed. Good managers learn to deal with asking people to do things they may not want to do. It is a hell of a lot better to do that than to be an ineffectual, "too nice" manager, who lets things fall apart because they try to do everything they are physically capable of doing, so that nobody dislikes them.
You think what's she's asking you to do is pointless? She is your boss. Perhaps she could get better at communicating why, but perhaps she does not have time. You don't have the full pantheon of information at her disposal and perhaps you do not know why it is so important. You work for her, she asked you to do something: Just do it!
Now. Is she asking you to do something outside of the proper channels? Do you not actually report to her? Is the time she's asking you for (regardless of whether or not you think it's worth it -- leave that out) actually budgeted for by you or by your boss? Then ask your boss to handle it.
Is what she's asking you to do getting in the way of something you're expected to do, and do you now have to stay late? Then ask your boss to handle it, or ask her to prioritize for you.
It honestly does sound like she's doing something wrong -- a truly good manager learns how to delegate without pissing people off, but you need to center on the actual problem, not your annoyance at the tasks she's asking you to do. That will only get you fired.
posted by pazazygeek at 2:55 PM on June 8, 2010 [21 favorites]
If she is truly a bad manager (and I believe you when you say that she is), your example is not a good one. You are basically saying that she is delegating tasks that she could do herself, or that you do not think are worth doing.
Let me tell you a little something about delegation from a management perspective: It is very hard. You do not just delegate what you don't know how to do or can't do. Nobody is served by that: You spend time doing things that most anybody else could do (instead of the valuable skill you are paid very highly for: management), and nobody learns how to do the things that got you to the place you are!
You delegate whatever you can. When you are in a management position, and you are required to know a lot about what's going on, and make management decisions, you should not spend one whit of time doing something that someone else can do. This is very hard: People will often get annoyed and think you should just do it yourself. But it's work, it's business, and people are going to get annoyed. Good managers learn to deal with asking people to do things they may not want to do. It is a hell of a lot better to do that than to be an ineffectual, "too nice" manager, who lets things fall apart because they try to do everything they are physically capable of doing, so that nobody dislikes them.
You think what's she's asking you to do is pointless? She is your boss. Perhaps she could get better at communicating why, but perhaps she does not have time. You don't have the full pantheon of information at her disposal and perhaps you do not know why it is so important. You work for her, she asked you to do something: Just do it!
Now. Is she asking you to do something outside of the proper channels? Do you not actually report to her? Is the time she's asking you for (regardless of whether or not you think it's worth it -- leave that out) actually budgeted for by you or by your boss? Then ask your boss to handle it.
Is what she's asking you to do getting in the way of something you're expected to do, and do you now have to stay late? Then ask your boss to handle it, or ask her to prioritize for you.
It honestly does sound like she's doing something wrong -- a truly good manager learns how to delegate without pissing people off, but you need to center on the actual problem, not your annoyance at the tasks she's asking you to do. That will only get you fired.
posted by pazazygeek at 2:55 PM on June 8, 2010 [21 favorites]
I've been and often am still in the exact situation. On the one hand it is very frustrating being the go-to person for mundane tasks like this. On the other hand, it can be incredibly rewarding to be that person for the higher ups at your company. If they rely on you (as frustrating as it can be), then you become indispensable to them. I'm all for teaching people to fish and all that, but sometimes it can pay to be the fisherman. Unless its dramatically interfering with your regular work, I'd say just keep doing it - and if it is, the person to speak to is your boss.
I do agree with CathyG - start CCing your boss on all emails to this VP. Discuss this problem with your boss. Have him call out the other VP as needed.
Don't go to HR for so many reasons.
posted by ish__ at 3:01 PM on June 8, 2010
I do agree with CathyG - start CCing your boss on all emails to this VP. Discuss this problem with your boss. Have him call out the other VP as needed.
Don't go to HR for so many reasons.
posted by ish__ at 3:01 PM on June 8, 2010
Go through your direct boss, if you trust him/think he would understand. Since you do not report to her, your boss probably is not happy about her using his team when she has her own. HR is not going to help you.
posted by spaltavian at 3:07 PM on June 8, 2010
posted by spaltavian at 3:07 PM on June 8, 2010
My direct boss (also a VP) has asked me to CC him on all my out-of-department correspondence
Excellent! Here's what you do:
posted by davejay at 3:18 PM on June 8, 2010 [2 favorites]
Excellent! Here's what you do:
Date: Today at 2pm
From: Annoying VP@
To: You@
Subject: Grunt Work I Need Done
Say, I have this thing that needs doing, and it would take me a few minutes, but it's faster for me to send an email to you, because I know you'll just get it done for me. Just be thankful I didn't send it to a larger audience, or the resulting email thread would be huge and time-wasting. Thanks!
----
Date: Today at 2:10pm
From: You@
To: Annoying VP@
Cc: Your Boss@
Subject: Re: Grunt Work I Need Done
Unfortunately, I am unable to accommodate your request today, due to pending deadlines. If you would like me to place this into my official work queue for scheduling, please advise your specific time/date deadline so that I can prioritize my work accordingly.
All best,
You@
> Say, I have this thing that needs doing, and it would take me a few minutes, but it's faster for
> me to send an email to you, because I know you'll just get it done for me. Just be thankful I
> didn't send it to a larger audience, or the resulting email thread would be huge and time-
> wasting. Thanks!
posted by davejay at 3:18 PM on June 8, 2010 [2 favorites]
Forgot to add: the point here is to simply address the work request like you would any other work request, even though it would only take a few minutes. That might mean you schedule it based on her deadline (and if she just says "as soon as possible", put it in your work queue and don't do it until all work with an *actual* deadline is completed), or it might mean forwarding it to your boss so that he can prioritize it. As soon as she has to go through official channels to get even small things done, she'll either get turned down by your boss, have to wait like everyone else, or will just harass someone else to get it done.
Oh, and if she sends someone to you on foot, or calls you on the phone, or otherwise contacts you without an email trail, let her (or the proxy) know you're on a deadline and will see what you can do, then immediately send a follow-up request (CCing your boss, of course) like so:
"Regarding [our conversation over the phone today|the request you sent so-and-so to me with today|the note you left on my desk], here is my understanding of what you're requesting: [quick summary.]"
Then tack on, from my previous example, "Unfortunately, I am unable to accommodate your request today, due to pending deadlines. If you would like me to place this into my official work queue for scheduling, please advise your specific time/date deadline so that I can prioritize my work accordingly."
She'll catch on pretty quick that you're completely willing to help, but only through official and documented channels. It's an effective way to look extremely helpful without people being able to take advantage of it, and it keeps your boss in the loop on how people are using (and abusing) your time.
Oh, and of course, if her requests end up in your official queue, and your boss is okay with that, that's a positive outcome as well -- because then if you're staying late to do it or delaying other work to accommodate it, it's something you can discuss in your reviews to justify raises or additional staff or what-have-you, without whining or gossiping or whatever.
posted by davejay at 3:24 PM on June 8, 2010 [3 favorites]
Oh, and if she sends someone to you on foot, or calls you on the phone, or otherwise contacts you without an email trail, let her (or the proxy) know you're on a deadline and will see what you can do, then immediately send a follow-up request (CCing your boss, of course) like so:
"Regarding [our conversation over the phone today|the request you sent so-and-so to me with today|the note you left on my desk], here is my understanding of what you're requesting: [quick summary.]"
Then tack on, from my previous example, "Unfortunately, I am unable to accommodate your request today, due to pending deadlines. If you would like me to place this into my official work queue for scheduling, please advise your specific time/date deadline so that I can prioritize my work accordingly."
She'll catch on pretty quick that you're completely willing to help, but only through official and documented channels. It's an effective way to look extremely helpful without people being able to take advantage of it, and it keeps your boss in the loop on how people are using (and abusing) your time.
Oh, and of course, if her requests end up in your official queue, and your boss is okay with that, that's a positive outcome as well -- because then if you're staying late to do it or delaying other work to accommodate it, it's something you can discuss in your reviews to justify raises or additional staff or what-have-you, without whining or gossiping or whatever.
posted by davejay at 3:24 PM on June 8, 2010 [3 favorites]
davejay: That will only work if those official queues exist and the employee can back up his statements with dead hard facts.... it it will STILL ruffle feathers. At the very least - he needs the support of his direct manager in this.
OP: My advice would be that, if the official channels for categorizing and prioritizing work don't already exist, you create them for yourself internally, track your time carefully, and be sure you can report to your boss the negative effects of not helping out the other person asking for help.
If it turns out there aren't any, and this is just a personal annoyance that is not impacting your department's productivity, then you'll either have to live with it, or find someone else to pass it off on, or some other way to just make the practice fade away.
If you aren't in a position to do that, you're basically just whining, and complaining will do nothing but hurt you.
On the upside, you have a side-channel to communicate with a VP from another department. VPs are people too - you never know when YOU might need a favour. It might save your job in a recession. Being valued in an organization is about more than rules and job descriptions... and being the go-to guy who can get stuff done is indespensible - as long as you aren't going off-track on your other projects.
Avoid all office gossip, any statements about the VPs ability to do their job, or HR, and any opinions about whether or not they could do it yourself. You are likely way over your head there and will do nothing but piss people off.
posted by TravellingDen at 4:47 PM on June 8, 2010
OP: My advice would be that, if the official channels for categorizing and prioritizing work don't already exist, you create them for yourself internally, track your time carefully, and be sure you can report to your boss the negative effects of not helping out the other person asking for help.
If it turns out there aren't any, and this is just a personal annoyance that is not impacting your department's productivity, then you'll either have to live with it, or find someone else to pass it off on, or some other way to just make the practice fade away.
If you aren't in a position to do that, you're basically just whining, and complaining will do nothing but hurt you.
On the upside, you have a side-channel to communicate with a VP from another department. VPs are people too - you never know when YOU might need a favour. It might save your job in a recession. Being valued in an organization is about more than rules and job descriptions... and being the go-to guy who can get stuff done is indespensible - as long as you aren't going off-track on your other projects.
Avoid all office gossip, any statements about the VPs ability to do their job, or HR, and any opinions about whether or not they could do it yourself. You are likely way over your head there and will do nothing but piss people off.
posted by TravellingDen at 4:47 PM on June 8, 2010
"She asked me for a Excel list of information, two columns, simple stuff she has just as much access to and ability to do as I do. In order to avoid inter-departmental strife, I just spent the 30 seconds to do it for her instead of arguing about it. I sent it to her, and got an email that she would ask a coworker (also not on her team) to "format it for her." Later that day, the non-computer-savvy coworker came over with a past example of what the VP wanted, and said the VP asked that I show her how to do it. Basically, she wants the one long list to be printed out as three side-by-side columns to fit on one page. This entails going a third down the list, cutting the bottom off, pasting next to the top and repeating once. The work of literally seconds."
You just helped two people, and hopefully trained one of them so that you no longer need to be involved in the process anymore. You might even say you've now sub-delegated the task out to the co-worker who asked you for help in the end (you had the opportunity!)
posted by TravellingDen at 4:51 PM on June 8, 2010
You just helped two people, and hopefully trained one of them so that you no longer need to be involved in the process anymore. You might even say you've now sub-delegated the task out to the co-worker who asked you for help in the end (you had the opportunity!)
posted by TravellingDen at 4:51 PM on June 8, 2010
Why she does this, I am not sure. She claims to be busy, but as I said, delegating this took her more time than doing it herself.
First, allow me to suggest that it’s not “process” that your VP is in love with, though that may be part of it. I think it’s safe to say that women often DO value process over results, sometimes for good reasons, and to good effect, sometimes not. But you have not described a process-oriented person; you have described someone who is anal-retentive, and that is quite different.
The tasks she seems to assign are of the “compile and file” variety, a hallmark of AR individuals, male or female. She wants something to put in a folder for possible future reference. Could she do it herself? You bet, but that is to miss the point. The AR manager is all about creating work for subordinates, because if everyone is busy, she’s a good manager, right? Ditto the deal about disrupting people to “work” on something that a simple phone call could resolve. Ditto blame shifting and taking unwarranted credit. It's all about her, not you.
Not to get too Freudian here, but this is all about gathering supposed authority to dole out later as supposed gifts. Hence the lies. It’s not insecurity so much as a compulsion to gather and then withhold information.
As others have said above, don’t even bother with HR. You’d be wasting your time and you’d only make yourself look bad.
Okay, some strategies:
Don’t underestimate Burhanistan’s advice to occasionally delay response for, say, 48 hours. This vp is all about throwing out lines for dumb fish; if you don’t bite right away, she may stop bothering you. (Unlikely, but it’s worth a try.) But do not simply ignore her. At her level, she can scuttle your credibility, valid criticism or not.
With respect to Etrigan, do not take shelter under the wing of your boss. That demonstrates that you’re weak and maybe even a crybaby. Do a great job for the outlier VP, just don’t do it immediately. In my experience, she will eventually leave you alone in favor of those who jump when she says jump.
Strive to remain the “innocent party.” Her issues are not your issues. Do what she asks, just not right away.
Re-read pazazygeek’s response. Good advice.
posted by Short Attention Sp at 5:11 PM on June 8, 2010 [3 favorites]
First, allow me to suggest that it’s not “process” that your VP is in love with, though that may be part of it. I think it’s safe to say that women often DO value process over results, sometimes for good reasons, and to good effect, sometimes not. But you have not described a process-oriented person; you have described someone who is anal-retentive, and that is quite different.
The tasks she seems to assign are of the “compile and file” variety, a hallmark of AR individuals, male or female. She wants something to put in a folder for possible future reference. Could she do it herself? You bet, but that is to miss the point. The AR manager is all about creating work for subordinates, because if everyone is busy, she’s a good manager, right? Ditto the deal about disrupting people to “work” on something that a simple phone call could resolve. Ditto blame shifting and taking unwarranted credit. It's all about her, not you.
Not to get too Freudian here, but this is all about gathering supposed authority to dole out later as supposed gifts. Hence the lies. It’s not insecurity so much as a compulsion to gather and then withhold information.
As others have said above, don’t even bother with HR. You’d be wasting your time and you’d only make yourself look bad.
Okay, some strategies:
Don’t underestimate Burhanistan’s advice to occasionally delay response for, say, 48 hours. This vp is all about throwing out lines for dumb fish; if you don’t bite right away, she may stop bothering you. (Unlikely, but it’s worth a try.) But do not simply ignore her. At her level, she can scuttle your credibility, valid criticism or not.
With respect to Etrigan, do not take shelter under the wing of your boss. That demonstrates that you’re weak and maybe even a crybaby. Do a great job for the outlier VP, just don’t do it immediately. In my experience, she will eventually leave you alone in favor of those who jump when she says jump.
Strive to remain the “innocent party.” Her issues are not your issues. Do what she asks, just not right away.
Re-read pazazygeek’s response. Good advice.
posted by Short Attention Sp at 5:11 PM on June 8, 2010 [3 favorites]
You might want to check out Lucy Kellaway's Dear Lucy column in the Financial Times for stuff like this. You might want to ask her yourself. (She invites answers from other people as well, which is a nice addition.)
posted by IndigoJones at 5:35 PM on June 8, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by IndigoJones at 5:35 PM on June 8, 2010 [1 favorite]
Like others, I'm not really sure you have a complaint that worth complaining about.
If the work that's frequently requested is that easy, just do it - cheerfully, even.
That will garner you many more "points" in a corporate environment that carping about make-work, busy-work, or (worst of all) work that is "beneath you".
One should never assume that because someone could do a thing, that automatically means they *should*; as has been pointed out, managers often have very full plates, and if they continue to do everything that they can, and not what they should, they'll soon be hopelessly behind in their important work.
OTOH, if you're in a crunch, and the task being requested will mean delay of a higher priority, there's nothing wrong with pointing that out - "I've got the following things to do in order of priority (as set by Boss x); I'm happy to do this for you, but I'll need (clearance, permission, whatever) to do that. Maybe person Y can help you. If you'd like I'd be happy to ask that person."
That way, you've stayed cooperative and provided alternatives (possible re-ordering of your priorities, but with permission, or re-assignment to another person). This is how to get along in the corporate world (in my experience, anyway).
Good luck.
posted by dbmcd at 5:36 PM on June 8, 2010
If the work that's frequently requested is that easy, just do it - cheerfully, even.
That will garner you many more "points" in a corporate environment that carping about make-work, busy-work, or (worst of all) work that is "beneath you".
One should never assume that because someone could do a thing, that automatically means they *should*; as has been pointed out, managers often have very full plates, and if they continue to do everything that they can, and not what they should, they'll soon be hopelessly behind in their important work.
OTOH, if you're in a crunch, and the task being requested will mean delay of a higher priority, there's nothing wrong with pointing that out - "I've got the following things to do in order of priority (as set by Boss x); I'm happy to do this for you, but I'll need (clearance, permission, whatever) to do that. Maybe person Y can help you. If you'd like I'd be happy to ask that person."
That way, you've stayed cooperative and provided alternatives (possible re-ordering of your priorities, but with permission, or re-assignment to another person). This is how to get along in the corporate world (in my experience, anyway).
Good luck.
posted by dbmcd at 5:36 PM on June 8, 2010
With respect to Etrigan, do not take shelter under the wing of your boss.
I'm not taking it personally, I promise. But I've been all three people in this equation, and the only way it's ever worked out well is when the actual-boss person puts his or her foot down and says, "Other VP, OP is my employee. You run your stuff through me, and I will prioritize her." It's not hiding to ask your actual boss what your priorities should be.
posted by Etrigan at 6:00 PM on June 8, 2010 [2 favorites]
I'm not taking it personally, I promise. But I've been all three people in this equation, and the only way it's ever worked out well is when the actual-boss person puts his or her foot down and says, "Other VP, OP is my employee. You run your stuff through me, and I will prioritize her." It's not hiding to ask your actual boss what your priorities should be.
posted by Etrigan at 6:00 PM on June 8, 2010 [2 favorites]
Been there, so many times. There is NO WAY to plead your case here without making yourself look like a selfish non-team-player. It's just not possible.
I started making very detailed, screenshot-heavy guides on how to do the mundane crap I kept getting asked to do over and over again. The first time, I do it. The second time, I email: "This looks like the same task I did for you [last week] [last month] whatever... Luckily I saved my reminder on how to complete it- see attachment! I know you'll have great results!"
Again- this only works if your boss is on your side. Luckily mine was, and also luckily, the people asking for me help had no direct authority over me so it was all "favors" on may part. Otherwise, YMMV.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 7:27 PM on June 8, 2010
I started making very detailed, screenshot-heavy guides on how to do the mundane crap I kept getting asked to do over and over again. The first time, I do it. The second time, I email: "This looks like the same task I did for you [last week] [last month] whatever... Luckily I saved my reminder on how to complete it- see attachment! I know you'll have great results!"
Again- this only works if your boss is on your side. Luckily mine was, and also luckily, the people asking for me help had no direct authority over me so it was all "favors" on may part. Otherwise, YMMV.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 7:27 PM on June 8, 2010
davejay: That will only work if those official queues exist and the employee can back up his statements with dead hard facts.... it it will STILL ruffle feathers. At the very least - he needs the support of his direct manager in this.
I am indeed making the assumption that, by asking to see correspondence with other departments, the boss is aware that some folks are making an end-run around his management of the job queue.
Of course, if there is no such management -- if the OP's job literally involves fulfilling any requests whatsoever that come in from any department, with no traffic control or queueing whatsoever, then the OP has larger problems than this one.
And yeah, if there is a person who is attempting to do an end-run, anything you do to stop/manage them will ruffle their feathers. The key is to present yourself at all times in writing, being very reasonable, and always looping your boss -- then following their lead. If the boss comes back and says "hey, [Annoying VP] is complaining about you not being able to do her work right away, can you prioritize her in your tasks", then you know what he wants and can proceed accordingly.
posted by davejay at 7:28 PM on June 8, 2010
I am indeed making the assumption that, by asking to see correspondence with other departments, the boss is aware that some folks are making an end-run around his management of the job queue.
Of course, if there is no such management -- if the OP's job literally involves fulfilling any requests whatsoever that come in from any department, with no traffic control or queueing whatsoever, then the OP has larger problems than this one.
And yeah, if there is a person who is attempting to do an end-run, anything you do to stop/manage them will ruffle their feathers. The key is to present yourself at all times in writing, being very reasonable, and always looping your boss -- then following their lead. If the boss comes back and says "hey, [Annoying VP] is complaining about you not being able to do her work right away, can you prioritize her in your tasks", then you know what he wants and can proceed accordingly.
posted by davejay at 7:28 PM on June 8, 2010
Just a tip: never go to HR unless there is something illegal going on and you can prove it. Disregard any advice that says go to HR. HR is there for management, not for you. They are not there to make sure that things are fair or to sort out who is right. If you complain about someone who is of a higher rank, you are announcing that *you* are the problem. That is all.
posted by Wordwoman at 7:56 PM on June 8, 2010 [4 favorites]
posted by Wordwoman at 7:56 PM on June 8, 2010 [4 favorites]
That she can do the work herself is not the issue, and getting hung up on this is just going to make you bitter and will backfire on you politically. Echoing everyone upthread that in her position, she is expected to delegate everything she can delegate in order to concentrate on managing, strategic planning, etc.
As Etrigan points out, your boss needs to be the one to shoot her down, not you. Send him the requests that she sends you, with a note to the effect of "I am of course happy to help provide [whatever information,] but I'm currently [status of projects.] Ask him to prioritize you. This is part of his job. Ideally, if he doesn't think her stuff is important for you to do, he will step up and let her know that you're too busy. If he has you tell her, make sure to cc him. And make it clear that your boss is the one who made the decision.
Unfortunately, if he is going to allow her to delegate work to you, then I'm afraid you'll have to consider it part of your job to just do it. If this is the case, start thinking about political gain on how you can establish yourself as so very competent, and advising other departments, even! This is prime fodder for advocating for raises/promotions and can fill out your resume nicely, too.
posted by desuetude at 8:39 PM on June 8, 2010
As Etrigan points out, your boss needs to be the one to shoot her down, not you. Send him the requests that she sends you, with a note to the effect of "I am of course happy to help provide [whatever information,] but I'm currently [status of projects.] Ask him to prioritize you. This is part of his job. Ideally, if he doesn't think her stuff is important for you to do, he will step up and let her know that you're too busy. If he has you tell her, make sure to cc him. And make it clear that your boss is the one who made the decision.
Unfortunately, if he is going to allow her to delegate work to you, then I'm afraid you'll have to consider it part of your job to just do it. If this is the case, start thinking about political gain on how you can establish yourself as so very competent, and advising other departments, even! This is prime fodder for advocating for raises/promotions and can fill out your resume nicely, too.
posted by desuetude at 8:39 PM on June 8, 2010
If you get paid by the hour, whatever you get asked to do that you are capable of, do it. They are paying for your skill set and time, not your happiness.
If you are salaried and not having to stay late every night and work weekends to accommodate this woman's requests, see above. If you are spending personal time to finish your own work AND hers, then you have a legitimate complaint to make to your supervisor about time management, departmental responsibilities and deadlines.
Even so, in this economy?
Reread paragraph one above and be grateful you aren't dealing with worse. Work is work is work, regardless of whether you find it annoying. EVERY job has an asshole coworker somewhere. Sorry.
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 7:55 AM on June 9, 2010
If you are salaried and not having to stay late every night and work weekends to accommodate this woman's requests, see above. If you are spending personal time to finish your own work AND hers, then you have a legitimate complaint to make to your supervisor about time management, departmental responsibilities and deadlines.
Even so, in this economy?
Reread paragraph one above and be grateful you aren't dealing with worse. Work is work is work, regardless of whether you find it annoying. EVERY job has an asshole coworker somewhere. Sorry.
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 7:55 AM on June 9, 2010
How do I complain about a manager without gossiping, whining, or shooting myself in the foot?
I don't think you can. I wanted to say something about "managing up" but then I realized that the person you're complaining about isn't someone you directly report to, and I don't know if you can manage up people you directly report to. Having said that, I think you're getting way too worked up over someone who annoys you for five minutes every other day.
Is the VP bullying others? Creating a toxic workplace that is impossible to work in? If so, that is a problem, but that's not the problem you outlined. Based on the one that you outlined, there isn't much you can do, other than get some perspective, find a way to deal (i.e. change your attitude, because y'know, the only person you can change is you) and try to not let this bother you so much. Because seriously, things could be a lot worse.
posted by foxjacket at 8:40 AM on June 9, 2010
I don't think you can. I wanted to say something about "managing up" but then I realized that the person you're complaining about isn't someone you directly report to, and I don't know if you can manage up people you directly report to. Having said that, I think you're getting way too worked up over someone who annoys you for five minutes every other day.
Is the VP bullying others? Creating a toxic workplace that is impossible to work in? If so, that is a problem, but that's not the problem you outlined. Based on the one that you outlined, there isn't much you can do, other than get some perspective, find a way to deal (i.e. change your attitude, because y'know, the only person you can change is you) and try to not let this bother you so much. Because seriously, things could be a lot worse.
posted by foxjacket at 8:40 AM on June 9, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
so it is often easier to simply placate her.
Is the answer--don't go fighting with VPs--your manager most likely wants to be one in turn. Nobody likes political infighting for petty reasons and this is petty -- and I say this as someone who has often been the go-to Excel person. Just do it. Your time is better spent fostering positive relationships than trying to drag anyone down.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 2:09 PM on June 8, 2010 [2 favorites]