Husband has homophobic and other issues
June 7, 2010 6:41 AM Subscribe
My husband is homophobic.
I need to do something about this because it's Not Okay, but I think he's got such a deep rooted gay panic I don't know what to do.
I'm ashamed of having to ask this, but hoping some of you will be patient enough to give some advice.
I have argued with him about it on an intellectual level and he has concluded, albeit reluctantly, that gay marriage is probably only fair and just. He draws the line at gay men adopting children and I can't seem to get the gay = more likely to be pedophile connection out of his head. And I think he'll never come round intellectually, no matter how many statistics I throw at him, as long as he doesn't work out his emotional response.
I have talked to him about it. Apparently, whenever he sees a gay man, he gets freaked out at imagining being pegged (is that the right word in English?). I roll my eyes and tell him not every man and woman wants his ass, for chrissakes, he isn't that much of a stud! and he laughs and says "but of course they do! I'm arrogant that way!" but of course that doesn't solve anything.
It makes me angry and sad that he'd be so close minded about something like that. We got together when we were both very young, and though I remember getting into fights with him about it ages ago, it didn't seem a deal breaker to me at the time. Also, the people around us aren't very diverse, and there is some infrequent casual homophobia (jokes and such), so it took me some time to understand things myself and figure out my own position to take.
I have online friends now who are gay and make a point of mentioning what's going on in their lives same as I do with my other friends. I think that helps and I do see his attitude changing and becoming more normal.
I go to gay cause business events in the course of my job and afterwards we chat about that.
I also consciously cultivate friends from more diverse and alternative backgrounds and this is becoming more who I am (husband and I grew up in a very conservative setting - socially, not politically, I mean). Interacting with them forces him to reconsider his views.
I think that all this is helping.
But I think it goes deeper than that and whatever issues are behind the gay panic thing also impact our sex life and this worries me also. For instance, it is important for him to measure up to some male ideal, of being the dominant one and being reassured that he's a real stallion. Despite being rather mildmannered and intellectual in normal conversation. I could never get him to play the submissive part, or experiment in specific ways. And to cap it all, he is incredibly easily embarassed by any conversations about our sex life and how to improve it, he literally freezes when I approach the topic in broad daylight.
And of course, (according to Hollywood rules) he may be closeted? But you know, I'd rather he get rid of his issues and turn out to be bi or gay or whatever than to have this weirdnesss.
Any advice?
Please no DTMFA advice; we've been together for the last 15 years and I love him. And he is a considerate and loving man who is always changing and growing, and willing to listen to me, so I have hopes.
I'm also not looking for advice on how to shut him up because there is some excellent advice on how to deal with homophobic relatives on AskMe already and shutting him up isn't going to help with this.
I'm worried.
I'm ashamed of having to ask this, but hoping some of you will be patient enough to give some advice.
I have argued with him about it on an intellectual level and he has concluded, albeit reluctantly, that gay marriage is probably only fair and just. He draws the line at gay men adopting children and I can't seem to get the gay = more likely to be pedophile connection out of his head. And I think he'll never come round intellectually, no matter how many statistics I throw at him, as long as he doesn't work out his emotional response.
I have talked to him about it. Apparently, whenever he sees a gay man, he gets freaked out at imagining being pegged (is that the right word in English?). I roll my eyes and tell him not every man and woman wants his ass, for chrissakes, he isn't that much of a stud! and he laughs and says "but of course they do! I'm arrogant that way!" but of course that doesn't solve anything.
It makes me angry and sad that he'd be so close minded about something like that. We got together when we were both very young, and though I remember getting into fights with him about it ages ago, it didn't seem a deal breaker to me at the time. Also, the people around us aren't very diverse, and there is some infrequent casual homophobia (jokes and such), so it took me some time to understand things myself and figure out my own position to take.
I have online friends now who are gay and make a point of mentioning what's going on in their lives same as I do with my other friends. I think that helps and I do see his attitude changing and becoming more normal.
I go to gay cause business events in the course of my job and afterwards we chat about that.
I also consciously cultivate friends from more diverse and alternative backgrounds and this is becoming more who I am (husband and I grew up in a very conservative setting - socially, not politically, I mean). Interacting with them forces him to reconsider his views.
I think that all this is helping.
But I think it goes deeper than that and whatever issues are behind the gay panic thing also impact our sex life and this worries me also. For instance, it is important for him to measure up to some male ideal, of being the dominant one and being reassured that he's a real stallion. Despite being rather mildmannered and intellectual in normal conversation. I could never get him to play the submissive part, or experiment in specific ways. And to cap it all, he is incredibly easily embarassed by any conversations about our sex life and how to improve it, he literally freezes when I approach the topic in broad daylight.
And of course, (according to Hollywood rules) he may be closeted? But you know, I'd rather he get rid of his issues and turn out to be bi or gay or whatever than to have this weirdnesss.
Any advice?
Please no DTMFA advice; we've been together for the last 15 years and I love him. And he is a considerate and loving man who is always changing and growing, and willing to listen to me, so I have hopes.
I'm also not looking for advice on how to shut him up because there is some excellent advice on how to deal with homophobic relatives on AskMe already and shutting him up isn't going to help with this.
I'm worried.
It makes me angry and sad that he'd be so close minded about something like that.
Have you discussed with him how his bigotry is impacting your relationship?
posted by munchingzombie at 6:50 AM on June 7, 2010 [4 favorites]
Have you discussed with him how his bigotry is impacting your relationship?
posted by munchingzombie at 6:50 AM on June 7, 2010 [4 favorites]
I don't have any real practical advice - but that's never stopped me before. Here's a recent Op-Ed piece from the NYT on the changing view on homosexuality in the US. It includes three theories as to why these views might be changing - maybe that'll give you an idea. Or atleast something to discuss with your husband.
I think personally I wouldn't try to change your husband's actual thoughts towards homosexuality (I doubt that is possible to be changed from an external source) - but I'd ask him to change his behavior. If his comments, facial reactions, etc embarrass you or make you feel uncomfortable - you can ask him to keep those thoughts to himself. Don't make it about him being wrong on the issue, just say you disagree and would rather not have other people associate you with his actions and assume you share them. If he respects you and is as considerate as you say, he should be willing to at least do that in public.
posted by quodlibet at 6:51 AM on June 7, 2010 [7 favorites]
I think personally I wouldn't try to change your husband's actual thoughts towards homosexuality (I doubt that is possible to be changed from an external source) - but I'd ask him to change his behavior. If his comments, facial reactions, etc embarrass you or make you feel uncomfortable - you can ask him to keep those thoughts to himself. Don't make it about him being wrong on the issue, just say you disagree and would rather not have other people associate you with his actions and assume you share them. If he respects you and is as considerate as you say, he should be willing to at least do that in public.
posted by quodlibet at 6:51 AM on June 7, 2010 [7 favorites]
Arguing with him is not going to help, because this is not an intellectual conclusion he's come to but a set of deep, visceral fears he doesn't know how to resolve. When you argue with him, you're forcing him to think about something he finds very uncomfortable; it's like putting him in a box of fire ants, so of course his resistance only increases. You can't force him to come around to your more enlightened perspective, and trying to force him only makes it less likely. I think you need to live your life as you see fit, and let your husband's homophobia be his problem. You shouldn't tolerate the offensive homophobic jokes, but deal with it by leaving the room, not by arguing. If he wants to engage you in serious discussion about it then that's fine, but let the initiative be his; he will only change if he decides that he wants to change.
posted by jon1270 at 6:56 AM on June 7, 2010
posted by jon1270 at 6:56 AM on June 7, 2010
I think your husband may be secretly gay. You obviously know him better, but it's a hypothesis worth considering.
If that's true, I think you need to make him extremely comfortable with his sexuality around you, and get him to reveal himself to you one day. However, the closet is a very comfortable place for some people, and I wouldn't count on it happening anytime soon. Plus, it's hardly a win for you if he ever came out.
He may also just be sexually insecure. You can cover that base by continuing with what you are doing, building up his confidence and praising him when he does something right.
In the short term, you should tell him that the people who complain about gay sex tend to be gay themselves. That might shut him up in the homophobia department, which would make the world a little bit of a better place, regardless of what he does with himself.
posted by teedee2000 at 6:57 AM on June 7, 2010
If that's true, I think you need to make him extremely comfortable with his sexuality around you, and get him to reveal himself to you one day. However, the closet is a very comfortable place for some people, and I wouldn't count on it happening anytime soon. Plus, it's hardly a win for you if he ever came out.
He may also just be sexually insecure. You can cover that base by continuing with what you are doing, building up his confidence and praising him when he does something right.
In the short term, you should tell him that the people who complain about gay sex tend to be gay themselves. That might shut him up in the homophobia department, which would make the world a little bit of a better place, regardless of what he does with himself.
posted by teedee2000 at 6:57 AM on June 7, 2010
In the short term, you should tell him that the people who complain about gay sex tend to be gay themselves. That might shut him up in the homophobia department, which would make the world a little bit of a better place, regardless of what he does with himself.
This is a downright terrible answer, and indicates that the poster is unlikely to have read the question to begin with.
Please don't tell your husband that you think his homophobia is some sort of reaction formation. Instead, tell him gently, but firmly, that his homophobic behavior is NOT OK and that it's something you won't tolerate. You can't change anyone's mind, but you can at least change the way they act.
posted by solipsophistocracy at 7:01 AM on June 7, 2010 [22 favorites]
This is a downright terrible answer, and indicates that the poster is unlikely to have read the question to begin with.
Please don't tell your husband that you think his homophobia is some sort of reaction formation. Instead, tell him gently, but firmly, that his homophobic behavior is NOT OK and that it's something you won't tolerate. You can't change anyone's mind, but you can at least change the way they act.
posted by solipsophistocracy at 7:01 AM on June 7, 2010 [22 favorites]
It sounds like your husband is not 100% comfortable with his own sense of masculinity and feels threatened by things that make him the "weaker" person in a sexual situation. Note that I am NOT implying that he is closeted, just that he is not fully confident and comfortable with himself as a sexual being. His fear of being "pegged," as you say, seems to be directly related to his need to be the dominant one in bed, and his discomfort in discussing sex in general. Like many homophobes, he equates being gay only with the physical sexual acts and not with the emotional connections of loving a particular person of the same sex. If he becomes more comfortable and confident in himself as a man and as a sexual person, then the intellectual discussions around his homophobia might be more productive.
As far as helping to resolve this, I think that perhaps a visit to a couples counselor with specific expertise in sexual therapy might be in order. Getting him into such a situation will not be easy, of course, but if you frame it as helping to strengthen your relationship it might help. Good luck!
posted by arco at 7:02 AM on June 7, 2010 [4 favorites]
As far as helping to resolve this, I think that perhaps a visit to a couples counselor with specific expertise in sexual therapy might be in order. Getting him into such a situation will not be easy, of course, but if you frame it as helping to strengthen your relationship it might help. Good luck!
posted by arco at 7:02 AM on June 7, 2010 [4 favorites]
whenever he sees a gay man, he gets freaked out at imagining being pegged
Whenever he's around a gay man, he imagines having sex with them? Really--and this is an honest question--is this normal among straight men?
I am not one to necessarily assume that homophobic people are gay, as 23skidoo says. There are many reasons he could be anti-gay, most of them religious. Does he hold strong religious convictions in other areas of life?
posted by Tooty McTootsalot at 7:07 AM on June 7, 2010 [2 favorites]
Whenever he's around a gay man, he imagines having sex with them? Really--and this is an honest question--is this normal among straight men?
I am not one to necessarily assume that homophobic people are gay, as 23skidoo says. There are many reasons he could be anti-gay, most of them religious. Does he hold strong religious convictions in other areas of life?
posted by Tooty McTootsalot at 7:07 AM on June 7, 2010 [2 favorites]
@solipsophistocracy -- How is it a terrible answer?
1) It's an entirely legitimate and arguable possibility, backed up by many articles, op-eds, research and my own personal experience as a gay man. Do I need to mention Ted Haggard, George Rekers, Larry Craig, and all the other crusaders who turned out to be luggage-lifters themselves?
2) Seeing as he has a problem with all things gay, hearing this hypothesis will do more to quiet his bigotry than relentless, futile tut-tutting. In fact, non-homophobe straight men often say the same thing too. It will shut him up and give him food for thought.
You can change someone's mind. And you can change how they act. Don't be ridiculous.
posted by teedee2000 at 7:10 AM on June 7, 2010
1) It's an entirely legitimate and arguable possibility, backed up by many articles, op-eds, research and my own personal experience as a gay man. Do I need to mention Ted Haggard, George Rekers, Larry Craig, and all the other crusaders who turned out to be luggage-lifters themselves?
2) Seeing as he has a problem with all things gay, hearing this hypothesis will do more to quiet his bigotry than relentless, futile tut-tutting. In fact, non-homophobe straight men often say the same thing too. It will shut him up and give him food for thought.
You can change someone's mind. And you can change how they act. Don't be ridiculous.
posted by teedee2000 at 7:10 AM on June 7, 2010
Response by poster: roomthreeseventeen: I've thought about that. Unfortunately I don't have any gay friends where we live. I think I'd have to drag him kicking and screaming to meet them if I did. However. A year ago he encouraged me to end an unhealthy friendship and in the course of that conversation I told him I wanted his promise that he would support my healthy friendships. And that means meeting and being a good host to my friends Gary and Steve, if they ever came to visit. And he promised - not very happily but he did.
Monkeysaltednuts: No, not at all. He loves watching sexy women and has very decided views on Angelina Jolie > Audrey Tautou etc.
Munchingzombie: I didn't discuss the impact on our relationship with him because I didn't know where to start or how to put it. This post has helped somewhat in even putting things into words. But I think it is still too vague, somehow...
jon1270: I have already limited the amount of times we visit people who would make gay jokes, not just because of the homophobia but because I generally didn't feel like they were a good fit anymore. And in my presence alone he usually doesn't elaborate because he knows I don't like it. But you are right, I'll make sure he knows I won't tolerate him making homophobic jokes.
arco: I think he would be frozen infront of a counselor. His family has a deeprooted suspicion of counseling (cousin threw himself out of window after therapy session) and though he knows counseling helped me in the past it is a strange beast to him. I think...I would like couples counseling.
Tooty: I kind of hope other straight men think like that too and that he's not a lone nutter. But yeah, meh. He isn't very religious, though he generally believes in God.
posted by Omnomnom at 7:13 AM on June 7, 2010
Monkeysaltednuts: No, not at all. He loves watching sexy women and has very decided views on Angelina Jolie > Audrey Tautou etc.
Munchingzombie: I didn't discuss the impact on our relationship with him because I didn't know where to start or how to put it. This post has helped somewhat in even putting things into words. But I think it is still too vague, somehow...
jon1270: I have already limited the amount of times we visit people who would make gay jokes, not just because of the homophobia but because I generally didn't feel like they were a good fit anymore. And in my presence alone he usually doesn't elaborate because he knows I don't like it. But you are right, I'll make sure he knows I won't tolerate him making homophobic jokes.
arco: I think he would be frozen infront of a counselor. His family has a deeprooted suspicion of counseling (cousin threw himself out of window after therapy session) and though he knows counseling helped me in the past it is a strange beast to him. I think...I would like couples counseling.
Tooty: I kind of hope other straight men think like that too and that he's not a lone nutter. But yeah, meh. He isn't very religious, though he generally believes in God.
posted by Omnomnom at 7:13 AM on June 7, 2010
Not all homophobic men are closeted gays.
Talk about stereotyping.
posted by dfriedman at 7:15 AM on June 7, 2010 [8 favorites]
Talk about stereotyping.
posted by dfriedman at 7:15 AM on June 7, 2010 [8 favorites]
Your question takes a lot of separate traits in your husband-- his political views, his visceral reaction to the idea of same-sex sexual encounters, his attitude toward communication in the bedroom, his insecurities about being submissive in bed-- and lumps them all together as a single big Issue to be dealt with. Regardless of whether they all stem from some common cause I think you might have better luck if you separated all these behaviors out, then chose to prioritize only those that impact you the most.
For example, maybe you're not OK with the occasional homophobic joke from your husband, but it seems as though the bigger issue here is that you're not happy with the communication about sexuality in your relationship, and with his behavior in bed-- so why not address that directly, by letting him know that you'd liketo talk more openly about your sex life, and asking how you can help him be comfortable with that?
Alternatively, if it really is just that the jokes and comments annoy you, then go ahead and set firm practical boundaries around that ("Honey, I find those remarks offensive, and I'd really appreciate it if you didn't talk that way when I'm around") and leave his private fantasies, sexual insecurities, and bedroom behavior out of it. Armchair psychoanalysis has its pleasures, but in this case I don't know that you have much to gain by conflating ideology, emotion, opinion and sexuality as you seem to be doing. If he does stuff that you find unacceptable, go ahead and call him out on the individual behaviors; otherwise, leave it alone.
posted by Bardolph at 7:19 AM on June 7, 2010 [4 favorites]
For example, maybe you're not OK with the occasional homophobic joke from your husband, but it seems as though the bigger issue here is that you're not happy with the communication about sexuality in your relationship, and with his behavior in bed-- so why not address that directly, by letting him know that you'd liketo talk more openly about your sex life, and asking how you can help him be comfortable with that?
Alternatively, if it really is just that the jokes and comments annoy you, then go ahead and set firm practical boundaries around that ("Honey, I find those remarks offensive, and I'd really appreciate it if you didn't talk that way when I'm around") and leave his private fantasies, sexual insecurities, and bedroom behavior out of it. Armchair psychoanalysis has its pleasures, but in this case I don't know that you have much to gain by conflating ideology, emotion, opinion and sexuality as you seem to be doing. If he does stuff that you find unacceptable, go ahead and call him out on the individual behaviors; otherwise, leave it alone.
posted by Bardolph at 7:19 AM on June 7, 2010 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: teedee, I think you are right that he needs to feel more comfortable. But if I didn't manage that after 15 years...and we've fallen into our sexual rut so thoroughly, it's hard to get out of it. I did say that I didn't want to shut him up, which is what solipsophistocracy is talking about, I think. I need to think about how to break the rut, I guess?
And I think he knows about closeted gays often being homophobic (he mentioned as much when asking me about the end of the movie Milk, which he initially refused to watch. :p ). I doubt it would help much bonking him over the head with it beyond shutting him up.
posted by Omnomnom at 7:19 AM on June 7, 2010
And I think he knows about closeted gays often being homophobic (he mentioned as much when asking me about the end of the movie Milk, which he initially refused to watch. :p ). I doubt it would help much bonking him over the head with it beyond shutting him up.
posted by Omnomnom at 7:19 AM on June 7, 2010
Response by poster: Not all homophobic men are closeted gays.
I'm sorry. It was one possibility (and as I said, one backed by the dubious source of hollywood movies). But I did not mean to suggest and do not believe that all homophobes are closeted.
What I did want to say is that even that would be preferable as a solution (though it would deprive me of a husband).
posted by Omnomnom at 7:21 AM on June 7, 2010
I'm sorry. It was one possibility (and as I said, one backed by the dubious source of hollywood movies). But I did not mean to suggest and do not believe that all homophobes are closeted.
What I did want to say is that even that would be preferable as a solution (though it would deprive me of a husband).
posted by Omnomnom at 7:21 AM on June 7, 2010
But I did not mean to suggest and do not believe that all homophobes are closeted.
Actually, I was referring to comments made by others, not you...
posted by dfriedman at 7:23 AM on June 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
Actually, I was referring to comments made by others, not you...
posted by dfriedman at 7:23 AM on June 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
I know many people would say you can't change his mind. But I've known people like your husband who have totally seen the light on gay rights after engaging in discussions with pro-gay people. That doesn't mean the discussions were a direct or immediate cause, but I do believe it makes an impression.
I've found the most compelling voice on these issues to be the well-known blogger Andrew Sullivan. Here's an interview with him on YouTube from back in 1995, when these issues had to be treated more delicately. (I hope that link is still active -- I can't check it now.)
I haven't read it, but Dan Savage wrote a book called The Kid: What Happened After My Boyfriend and I Decided to Go Get Pregnant. Maybe suggest that he read it. (It's also a play.)
Finally, although your question is ostensibly about your husbands views on gays, there are clearly some deeper issues with your relationship. I'm hardly telling you anything you don't know (your paragraph that begins, "But I think it goes deeper than that..."). The reason I mention this is because I think either of you might benefit from reading Bell Hooks's The Will to Change: Men, Masculinity, and Love. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if it's more useful to you than to him.
posted by Jaltcoh at 7:27 AM on June 7, 2010
I've found the most compelling voice on these issues to be the well-known blogger Andrew Sullivan. Here's an interview with him on YouTube from back in 1995, when these issues had to be treated more delicately. (I hope that link is still active -- I can't check it now.)
I haven't read it, but Dan Savage wrote a book called The Kid: What Happened After My Boyfriend and I Decided to Go Get Pregnant. Maybe suggest that he read it. (It's also a play.)
Finally, although your question is ostensibly about your husbands views on gays, there are clearly some deeper issues with your relationship. I'm hardly telling you anything you don't know (your paragraph that begins, "But I think it goes deeper than that..."). The reason I mention this is because I think either of you might benefit from reading Bell Hooks's The Will to Change: Men, Masculinity, and Love. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if it's more useful to you than to him.
posted by Jaltcoh at 7:27 AM on June 7, 2010
From what you've written I think this is unlikely but possible: there is a theme in OCD where one is afraid that they are actually gay even if they aren't... I say this is a possibility because it sounds like he is having really intrusive thoughts about gay sex he does not want. Like someone mentioned, I don't think most straight men imagine having sex with every gay man they meet, and this could be the possible reason.
And acting hypermasculine might be a way to refute and reassure himself that he isn't gay.
http://www.brainphysics.com/hocd.php
If this is what is going on and he gets treatment for it he might be a bit less homophobic, because perhaps his homophobia stems from worry about himself being gay (even though he's not).
posted by tweedle at 7:32 AM on June 7, 2010 [6 favorites]
And acting hypermasculine might be a way to refute and reassure himself that he isn't gay.
http://www.brainphysics.com/hocd.php
If this is what is going on and he gets treatment for it he might be a bit less homophobic, because perhaps his homophobia stems from worry about himself being gay (even though he's not).
posted by tweedle at 7:32 AM on June 7, 2010 [6 favorites]
Whenever he's around a gay man, he imagines having sex with them? Really--and this is an honest question--is this normal among straight men?
People who are phobic of something will think about that something any time they are exposed to it, so it's normal among homophobic men.
posted by Jairus at 7:34 AM on June 7, 2010 [2 favorites]
People who are phobic of something will think about that something any time they are exposed to it, so it's normal among homophobic men.
posted by Jairus at 7:34 AM on June 7, 2010 [2 favorites]
I think the easiest way for people to get over their bigotry is to put them in positions where they need to interact with people they are bigoted against with some regularity. Then they will learn, "OMG they are just like me," and the world will be a better place.
posted by chunking express at 7:35 AM on June 7, 2010
posted by chunking express at 7:35 AM on June 7, 2010
The OCD possibility that tweedle brings up is actually a pretty good point. There are a lot of people with OCD who are terrified of having traits that they don't have, who don't know that they have OCD. It couldn't hurt to find an article about the experience of having OCD that you pass to your husband as an interesting read. It's possible he might recognize and identify with the pattern of intrusive thoughts.
posted by Jairus at 7:38 AM on June 7, 2010
posted by Jairus at 7:38 AM on June 7, 2010
I have a friend like this. He is not gay (I am pretty sure of this) but he does have some issues regarding his masculinity/virility -- he's insecure, wants to be the one in charge, believes himself to be a total stud, that sort of thing. His girlfriend has dealt with his OMG Gay Person! reaction by simply telling him that it's inappropriate and she won't put up with it. Because he loves her, he's become more measured, but I know that he is still uncomfortable around gay men.
However, that's all just window dressing. It sounds like you've done some good work with him on that front -- spending less time around homophobic friends, getting him to agree to play host to gay friends -- and I think over time, that will help with the underlying issues.
But I don't think the underlying issues are going to go away until he deals with exactly what those issues are. From your description, it really does sound like insecurity -- in his masculinity, in his sexuality, in his attractiveness to you (only people who are insecure about their attractiveness feel the need to constantly remind people that everyone else wants to do them).
You aren't going to be able to change his mind/reactions, though, because his issue is really about HIM and his insecurity. What you can do (and what I think a counselor would do) is facilitate in him an understanding of what, exactly, it is about gay men that bothers him. Don't let him get away with the "I think they all want to bang me" crap -- that's his way of shutting down the question by retreating to his comfort zone of "I am a masculine badass." It won't be easy and it sounds like you may have trouble getting him to open up, so start small. Don't jump right in on "Why do gay people scare you" -- start instead with something like "Do you ever feel unattractive? When?" and then discuss how that's normal, and OK, etc.
[And re: the Hollywood rule: Yes, I think some gay-bashers are closeted and their actions are self-hatred. But don't jump to that conclusion just because gay men make him uncomfortable. It could be that your husband had a gay experience once and it really confused him, or that he had some sort of sexual trauma in his childhood with the same result -- or he could be bi or gay. The kicker is really just to figure out where the deep insecurity is coming from.]
posted by devinemissk at 7:40 AM on June 7, 2010
However, that's all just window dressing. It sounds like you've done some good work with him on that front -- spending less time around homophobic friends, getting him to agree to play host to gay friends -- and I think over time, that will help with the underlying issues.
But I don't think the underlying issues are going to go away until he deals with exactly what those issues are. From your description, it really does sound like insecurity -- in his masculinity, in his sexuality, in his attractiveness to you (only people who are insecure about their attractiveness feel the need to constantly remind people that everyone else wants to do them).
You aren't going to be able to change his mind/reactions, though, because his issue is really about HIM and his insecurity. What you can do (and what I think a counselor would do) is facilitate in him an understanding of what, exactly, it is about gay men that bothers him. Don't let him get away with the "I think they all want to bang me" crap -- that's his way of shutting down the question by retreating to his comfort zone of "I am a masculine badass." It won't be easy and it sounds like you may have trouble getting him to open up, so start small. Don't jump right in on "Why do gay people scare you" -- start instead with something like "Do you ever feel unattractive? When?" and then discuss how that's normal, and OK, etc.
[And re: the Hollywood rule: Yes, I think some gay-bashers are closeted and their actions are self-hatred. But don't jump to that conclusion just because gay men make him uncomfortable. It could be that your husband had a gay experience once and it really confused him, or that he had some sort of sexual trauma in his childhood with the same result -- or he could be bi or gay. The kicker is really just to figure out where the deep insecurity is coming from.]
posted by devinemissk at 7:40 AM on June 7, 2010
whenever he sees a gay man, he gets freaked out at imagining being pegged
Wow, he's actually, literally, homophobic. As in, he has an irrational fear of gay men. That's actually pretty unusual. Usually the "phobia" part of homophobia is buried a little farther down in the psyche.
For instance, it is important for him to measure up to some male ideal, of being the dominant one and being reassured that he's a real stallion.
I think that this is the real problem, and the gay panic stems from it. If you can get him to agree to counseling, I think that perhaps a more useful angle than "you need to go to counseling to fix your homophobia" is that his insecurities are spilling over into so many areas that it's affecting your relationship.
Can you tell him that his constant need for reassurance is making you unhappy, but that you don't want to fight about it, so a neutral third party might help the two of you discuss things? Can you draw a line for him between "therapy" such as someone would get if they had an illness vs "counseling" that people get to ensure the ongoing health of their relationship?
posted by desuetude at 7:41 AM on June 7, 2010 [4 favorites]
Wow, he's actually, literally, homophobic. As in, he has an irrational fear of gay men. That's actually pretty unusual. Usually the "phobia" part of homophobia is buried a little farther down in the psyche.
For instance, it is important for him to measure up to some male ideal, of being the dominant one and being reassured that he's a real stallion.
I think that this is the real problem, and the gay panic stems from it. If you can get him to agree to counseling, I think that perhaps a more useful angle than "you need to go to counseling to fix your homophobia" is that his insecurities are spilling over into so many areas that it's affecting your relationship.
Can you tell him that his constant need for reassurance is making you unhappy, but that you don't want to fight about it, so a neutral third party might help the two of you discuss things? Can you draw a line for him between "therapy" such as someone would get if they had an illness vs "counseling" that people get to ensure the ongoing health of their relationship?
posted by desuetude at 7:41 AM on June 7, 2010 [4 favorites]
Couple of different issues going on here.
One, your husband grew up on conservative social environment, so it's not surprising that's he's homophobic. He was probably taught that love and marriage means a man and a woman and homosexuality is deviant. You say he's mild mannered? I'd bet money he was called faggot as a kid, as a way to demean him, make him feel weak. If not that exactly, there's probably a whole history of events and situations that have imprinted "homos are evil" on his brain and that stuff can be hard for a person to get rid of, especially after decades of hearing it. He's wrong, of course, but he doesn't think so and trying to force him to change on your time schedule could seriously backfire.
I would suggest to continue doing what you're doing, expanding your social circle, including him in it and getting him slowly acclimated to the various other types of people. If he learns to embrace other cultures, that can help, in time, with the homphobia. Consider it a sort of project or ongoing thing. Do not attempt to surprise or force him to do anything he doesn't want to do, ever. You need to respect his feelings, even if you disagree with them.
Two:
For instance, it is important for him to measure up to some male ideal, of being the dominant one and being reassured that he's a real stallion. Despite being rather mildmannered and intellectual in normal conversation. I could never get him to play the submissive part, or experiment in specific ways.
Maybe he just doesn't want to be submissive. This isn't necessarily about his homophobia and frankly this sounds more like something you want, i.e. him being submissive in bed and it sounds a little like you're pushing him to be like that, in some form or fashion. You need to let him be who he needs to be and to live with that.
Whenever he's around a gay man, he imagines having sex with them? Really--and this is an honest question--is this normal among straight men?
NO, he imagines them having sex with him. The thinking is that hey, it's a guy and you know how guys always want to screw anything that moves, so of course gay men want to have sex with him too. It's a bit crazy sure, but it has a certain logic to it.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:46 AM on June 7, 2010 [6 favorites]
One, your husband grew up on conservative social environment, so it's not surprising that's he's homophobic. He was probably taught that love and marriage means a man and a woman and homosexuality is deviant. You say he's mild mannered? I'd bet money he was called faggot as a kid, as a way to demean him, make him feel weak. If not that exactly, there's probably a whole history of events and situations that have imprinted "homos are evil" on his brain and that stuff can be hard for a person to get rid of, especially after decades of hearing it. He's wrong, of course, but he doesn't think so and trying to force him to change on your time schedule could seriously backfire.
I would suggest to continue doing what you're doing, expanding your social circle, including him in it and getting him slowly acclimated to the various other types of people. If he learns to embrace other cultures, that can help, in time, with the homphobia. Consider it a sort of project or ongoing thing. Do not attempt to surprise or force him to do anything he doesn't want to do, ever. You need to respect his feelings, even if you disagree with them.
Two:
For instance, it is important for him to measure up to some male ideal, of being the dominant one and being reassured that he's a real stallion. Despite being rather mildmannered and intellectual in normal conversation. I could never get him to play the submissive part, or experiment in specific ways.
Maybe he just doesn't want to be submissive. This isn't necessarily about his homophobia and frankly this sounds more like something you want, i.e. him being submissive in bed and it sounds a little like you're pushing him to be like that, in some form or fashion. You need to let him be who he needs to be and to live with that.
Whenever he's around a gay man, he imagines having sex with them? Really--and this is an honest question--is this normal among straight men?
NO, he imagines them having sex with him. The thinking is that hey, it's a guy and you know how guys always want to screw anything that moves, so of course gay men want to have sex with him too. It's a bit crazy sure, but it has a certain logic to it.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:46 AM on June 7, 2010 [6 favorites]
It's likely that your husband has spent most of his life believing that homosexuality is evil, sinful, etc., and that gay men cannot help themselves from fucking dudes all the time. These are the assumptions that lead to visceral homophobic reactions. He sees gay people as completely alien and unrelatable to himself and to other "normal" people.
I actually think that getting him to intellectualize homosexuality, to realize that one's sexual preference isn't the single defining trait of one's existence, might help. Ask him, for example, why he doesn't try and have sex with every single woman he sees on the street. Or ask him whether his "straightness" is essential to his doing his job at work every day. Or whether the food he eats at a restaurant would be different depending on whether it was made by a gay person or a straight one. Or a bisexual one?
also: Technically, "pegging" is the term for when a woman uses a strap-on dildo to penetrate a man. The more appropriate word in [British] English is "buggering," which has connotations of non-consensual man-on-man sex. (however, if you sex life has fallen into a rut, maybe you'll get some ideas from pegging :)
posted by Jon_Evil at 7:49 AM on June 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
I actually think that getting him to intellectualize homosexuality, to realize that one's sexual preference isn't the single defining trait of one's existence, might help. Ask him, for example, why he doesn't try and have sex with every single woman he sees on the street. Or ask him whether his "straightness" is essential to his doing his job at work every day. Or whether the food he eats at a restaurant would be different depending on whether it was made by a gay person or a straight one. Or a bisexual one?
also: Technically, "pegging" is the term for when a woman uses a strap-on dildo to penetrate a man. The more appropriate word in [British] English is "buggering," which has connotations of non-consensual man-on-man sex. (however, if you sex life has fallen into a rut, maybe you'll get some ideas from pegging :)
posted by Jon_Evil at 7:49 AM on June 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
He draws the line at gay men adopting children and I can't seem to get the gay = more likely to be pedophile connection out of his head. And I think he'll never come round intellectually, no matter how many statistics I throw at him, as long as he doesn't work out his emotional response.
I have talked to him about it. Apparently, whenever he sees a gay man, he gets freaked out at imagining being pegged (is that the right word in English?).
That to me does not scream "I am secretly gay" so much as "Something traumatic happened to me during my childhood."
So, add that to the pile of conjecture, I guess.
posted by Sys Rq at 7:52 AM on June 7, 2010 [7 favorites]
I have talked to him about it. Apparently, whenever he sees a gay man, he gets freaked out at imagining being pegged (is that the right word in English?).
That to me does not scream "I am secretly gay" so much as "Something traumatic happened to me during my childhood."
So, add that to the pile of conjecture, I guess.
posted by Sys Rq at 7:52 AM on June 7, 2010 [7 favorites]
I don't think aligning yourself with visionary radical feminism as one of the previous links suggests is going to help your relationship. This is a relationship issue first and foremost. His bias and unwillingness to face it, coupled probably with his showing of weakness by being unable to really face and discuss sexuality appears to be an issue in your relationship, and that is probably to be expected given the situation. The antidote to such issues is talk. Not a single heart to heart in which all issues are thrashed out. No, this is a situation in which he must come to terms with things slowly, probably over months and years. Continue to gently let him know your feelings, support him as a person and partner but let him know how this disappoints you. I think you need to especially disabuse him of the notion that his attitudes make him more virile and manly, but this must be done even more gently. A real man does not hide from talk of sex and sexuality.
posted by caddis at 7:52 AM on June 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by caddis at 7:52 AM on June 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
I don't think aligning yourself with visionary radical feminism as one of the previous links suggests is going to help your relationship. This is a relationship issue first and foremost.
I agree, which is why I said the Bell Hooks book might be more useful for her than him to read. It has a lot of good points in it that stand alone if you're willing to look past the lefty/feminist ideology.
posted by Jaltcoh at 7:58 AM on June 7, 2010
I agree, which is why I said the Bell Hooks book might be more useful for her than him to read. It has a lot of good points in it that stand alone if you're willing to look past the lefty/feminist ideology.
posted by Jaltcoh at 7:58 AM on June 7, 2010
I know many people would say you can't change his mind. But I've known people like your husband who have totally seen the light on gay rights after engaging in discussions with pro-gay people. That doesn't mean the discussions were a direct or immediate cause, but I do believe it makes an impression.
IN GENERAL, you can't change someone. I believe this thread is prejudiced by the fact that most of us are against homophobia. It would be different if you said, "My husband hates my taste in clothing. How can I get him to stop hating long dresses?" People would likely say, "Sorry, but you can't change your husband's tastes."
Yes, people SOMETIMES do change, gradually. Once in a blue moon, someone has a lightning-fast change. But you can't predict when this is going to happen. The stars have to be in alignment. By which I mean that there have to be inner forces at play, inside the person's head, that have prepped him to change.
So it's not that people never change. It's that there aren't good strategies for causing them to do so. And there are many BAD strategies that are likely to backfire. The worst is fighting. The problem with fighting is it tends to make people defensive. That's lizard-brain stuff, and once it kicks in, rationality goes out the window.
Another bad strategy is "making a quiet point" or "teaching a lesson." Let's say there's some guy your husband admires but doesn't know is gay. I can almost guarantee you it will backfire if you say, "Well, guess what..."
The same thing is likely to happen if you introduce your husband to someone without mentioning the guy's orientation, and then, when your husband says, "I like the guy," point out that the he is gay. We all want those sorts of tactics to work. But in practice, they usually don't, because the person involved feels tricked. "Oh, I see, you just introduced me to Bob in order try to teach me a lesson? To prove your point? To show me that I'm wrong? Screw you!" No one likes being condescended to. The lizard-brain kicks in again.
Here's what people say in MOST threads like this (the ones that don't involve someone holding an unpopular view): you can only change yourself. This is true. Or rather, you'll have a much better chance of changing yourself than changing your husband.
Fact: you are married to a homophobic guy. That makes life hard for you.
Question: What are you going to do to make life easier for yourself, given that he's probably not going to change, and, if he does, he's going to do it on his own terms and not overnight?
You've rejected leaving him. That makes sense, given that you love him and have put so much time into the relationship.
Here's a question: does he respect you? If he doesn't, then you have a much bigger problem than homophobia, and you should get counseling -- hopefully with your husband tagging along. Respecting you doesn't mean "not hating gay people." If he hates them, he hates them. Hopefully he'll change some day, but right now that's just a reality of his mental state.
If he does respect you, tell him that homophobia offends you and ask him, out of respect for you, to refrain from homophobic comments in your presence. Tell him that you'll leave the room if you hear anything homophobic coming out of his mouth. And do it.
That's something YOU can do. You can make demands, and you can take action.
posted by grumblebee at 8:02 AM on June 7, 2010 [4 favorites]
IN GENERAL, you can't change someone. I believe this thread is prejudiced by the fact that most of us are against homophobia. It would be different if you said, "My husband hates my taste in clothing. How can I get him to stop hating long dresses?" People would likely say, "Sorry, but you can't change your husband's tastes."
Yes, people SOMETIMES do change, gradually. Once in a blue moon, someone has a lightning-fast change. But you can't predict when this is going to happen. The stars have to be in alignment. By which I mean that there have to be inner forces at play, inside the person's head, that have prepped him to change.
So it's not that people never change. It's that there aren't good strategies for causing them to do so. And there are many BAD strategies that are likely to backfire. The worst is fighting. The problem with fighting is it tends to make people defensive. That's lizard-brain stuff, and once it kicks in, rationality goes out the window.
Another bad strategy is "making a quiet point" or "teaching a lesson." Let's say there's some guy your husband admires but doesn't know is gay. I can almost guarantee you it will backfire if you say, "Well, guess what..."
The same thing is likely to happen if you introduce your husband to someone without mentioning the guy's orientation, and then, when your husband says, "I like the guy," point out that the he is gay. We all want those sorts of tactics to work. But in practice, they usually don't, because the person involved feels tricked. "Oh, I see, you just introduced me to Bob in order try to teach me a lesson? To prove your point? To show me that I'm wrong? Screw you!" No one likes being condescended to. The lizard-brain kicks in again.
Here's what people say in MOST threads like this (the ones that don't involve someone holding an unpopular view): you can only change yourself. This is true. Or rather, you'll have a much better chance of changing yourself than changing your husband.
Fact: you are married to a homophobic guy. That makes life hard for you.
Question: What are you going to do to make life easier for yourself, given that he's probably not going to change, and, if he does, he's going to do it on his own terms and not overnight?
You've rejected leaving him. That makes sense, given that you love him and have put so much time into the relationship.
Here's a question: does he respect you? If he doesn't, then you have a much bigger problem than homophobia, and you should get counseling -- hopefully with your husband tagging along. Respecting you doesn't mean "not hating gay people." If he hates them, he hates them. Hopefully he'll change some day, but right now that's just a reality of his mental state.
If he does respect you, tell him that homophobia offends you and ask him, out of respect for you, to refrain from homophobic comments in your presence. Tell him that you'll leave the room if you hear anything homophobic coming out of his mouth. And do it.
That's something YOU can do. You can make demands, and you can take action.
posted by grumblebee at 8:02 AM on June 7, 2010 [4 favorites]
I have talked to him about it. Apparently, whenever he sees a gay man, he gets freaked out at imagining being pegged (is that the right word in English?).
That to me does not scream "I am secretly gay" so much as "Something traumatic happened to me during my childhood."
THIS. It seems as if your husband's issues go beyond mere bigotry and into a bonafide phobia. Was he abused (not necessarily sexually) as a child? Were his parents strict and controlling, forcing him to do things he didn't want to do and not allowing him to say "No" or "I don't like this?"
OCD is another possibility.
Honestly, I think your husband needs a therapist. I don't think mere "talking to nice gay men" is going to be much help until he addresses the underlying fear/control issues.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 8:10 AM on June 7, 2010
That to me does not scream "I am secretly gay" so much as "Something traumatic happened to me during my childhood."
THIS. It seems as if your husband's issues go beyond mere bigotry and into a bonafide phobia. Was he abused (not necessarily sexually) as a child? Were his parents strict and controlling, forcing him to do things he didn't want to do and not allowing him to say "No" or "I don't like this?"
OCD is another possibility.
Honestly, I think your husband needs a therapist. I don't think mere "talking to nice gay men" is going to be much help until he addresses the underlying fear/control issues.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 8:10 AM on June 7, 2010
To me you sound like you're in a hurry, as in he needs to get over his homophobia by next Saturday or everything is ruined.
He may get where you need him to be, but it will almost certainly take more time and patience than you seem to be willing to give. People don't get over prejudices or phobias overnight.
posted by mcwetboy at 8:12 AM on June 7, 2010
He may get where you need him to be, but it will almost certainly take more time and patience than you seem to be willing to give. People don't get over prejudices or phobias overnight.
posted by mcwetboy at 8:12 AM on June 7, 2010
I'm gay. I appreciate your effort to try to teach your husband to be more gay tolerant. But it puzzles me why it's such a big issue for you. You're doing the right things, he's learning, and it will take years and he'll never entirely come around. But presumably his homophobia is not a big part of your marriage. So what's so upsetting? On a second read I saw the second part of your question
I'd encourage you to treat that issue about your sex life entirely separately from an abstract discussion of homophobia. Lots of marriages end up having boring sex. Lots of men have a hard time talking about their sex life. And lots of men (gay and straight) are uncomfortable "playing the submissive part". I think you may get further treating these issues head on, as issues between the two of you, and leave Harvey Milk and gay rights and the rest of the abstraction of social justice out of it.
posted by Nelson at 8:19 AM on June 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
whatever issues are behind the gay panic thing also impact our sex life ... I could never get him to play the submissive part, or experiment in specific ways. And to cap it all, he is incredibly easily embarassed by any conversations about our sex life.It sounds like you're worried about your sexual life with him, too, and think it's related to his homophobia. Specifically it sounds to me like you want to do some sort of anal penetration with him and he's not into it, and more generally your sex life has gotten boring and you can't talk about it.
I'd encourage you to treat that issue about your sex life entirely separately from an abstract discussion of homophobia. Lots of marriages end up having boring sex. Lots of men have a hard time talking about their sex life. And lots of men (gay and straight) are uncomfortable "playing the submissive part". I think you may get further treating these issues head on, as issues between the two of you, and leave Harvey Milk and gay rights and the rest of the abstraction of social justice out of it.
posted by Nelson at 8:19 AM on June 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
Maybe you need to break this into little tiny bites rather than trying to tackle a pretty large, complex, and multifaceted issue all at once.
I'm hearing that he has a very rigid, largely-unquestioned set of rules about masculinity. For a person in that position - and before we even consider the nasty socialization he's received regarding gay men - having to question those rules can be really scary and threatening. And if two men are together without a woman as a relative fixed point, the rules get all fucked up and oh no now what??
As a tangential point, how does he feel about feminism?
I think the earliest baby steps to opening up the discussion is to talk about masculinity, the rules, the beliefs he has and operates by. And not in bed - hello minefield - but in the world, in your home, in the way other people act. Maybe that would help him begin to expand his own worldview. I don't think you can jump to the end and have him embrace and understand homosexuality before he feels like he has some control over his definition of masculinity.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:21 AM on June 7, 2010 [2 favorites]
I'm hearing that he has a very rigid, largely-unquestioned set of rules about masculinity. For a person in that position - and before we even consider the nasty socialization he's received regarding gay men - having to question those rules can be really scary and threatening. And if two men are together without a woman as a relative fixed point, the rules get all fucked up and oh no now what??
As a tangential point, how does he feel about feminism?
I think the earliest baby steps to opening up the discussion is to talk about masculinity, the rules, the beliefs he has and operates by. And not in bed - hello minefield - but in the world, in your home, in the way other people act. Maybe that would help him begin to expand his own worldview. I don't think you can jump to the end and have him embrace and understand homosexuality before he feels like he has some control over his definition of masculinity.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:21 AM on June 7, 2010 [2 favorites]
Much of the homophobia I have encountered has been based on ideas of masculinity and fear of being "submissive." Men can't imagine allowing themselves to be a "woman" in the relationship, because that would mean giving up control and dignity. The problem then may ultimately be misogynyn (seeing women and their associated qualities inferior to men and their qualities).
posted by BusyBusyBusy at 8:24 AM on June 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by BusyBusyBusy at 8:24 AM on June 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
Futher, I would make it clear to him that his closemindedness is leading you to feel dissatisfied and bored in the bedroom (if that is the case).
posted by BusyBusyBusy at 8:26 AM on June 7, 2010
posted by BusyBusyBusy at 8:26 AM on June 7, 2010
Futher, I would make it clear to him that his closemindedness is leading you to feel dissatisfied and bored in the bedroom (if that is the case).
Yeah, equating homosexuality with ya'll's sex life probably isn't the wisest move.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:29 AM on June 7, 2010
Yeah, equating homosexuality with ya'll's sex life probably isn't the wisest move.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:29 AM on June 7, 2010
My experience with homophobic rhetoric along with intellectual "acceptance" is that the fear of gay men is tied closely to a fear of being associated with an ostracized class. There are many people who are desperate to be accepted and actively shun anyone around them that might put their status in the large group at risk. His socially conservative upbringing would seem to support that.
For these people, being found attractive by a man is like being labelled a communist in the 50s. Guilt by association. The same thing happened in the 60s with civil rights supporters being labeled as "black" lovers.
If the above is true, I think he needs to be more comfortable with himself as not being defined by others to be more comfortable with gay people. This is hard to do if much of his worth and support are built on the value systems of his community. Can he afford to lose his status by being thought of as "gay friendly"? If not, he may be relegated to being OK in mind and not in action or deed.
posted by qwip at 8:40 AM on June 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
For these people, being found attractive by a man is like being labelled a communist in the 50s. Guilt by association. The same thing happened in the 60s with civil rights supporters being labeled as "black" lovers.
If the above is true, I think he needs to be more comfortable with himself as not being defined by others to be more comfortable with gay people. This is hard to do if much of his worth and support are built on the value systems of his community. Can he afford to lose his status by being thought of as "gay friendly"? If not, he may be relegated to being OK in mind and not in action or deed.
posted by qwip at 8:40 AM on June 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Just to clarify, I'm not really bothered about him not wanting to be submissive, I'm worried about his flustered and icked out annoyance at the mere idea. And, um, I wouldn't even suggest pegging to him. But yes, point taken about this maybe being a separate issue.
I'm so so grateful for all your posts. Thank you very much, just reading this is making me feel less strange about it.
posted by Omnomnom at 8:40 AM on June 7, 2010
I'm so so grateful for all your posts. Thank you very much, just reading this is making me feel less strange about it.
posted by Omnomnom at 8:40 AM on June 7, 2010
I'm worried about his flustered and icked out annoyance at the mere idea.
Why, what problem is it causing?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:42 AM on June 7, 2010
Why, what problem is it causing?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:42 AM on June 7, 2010
I'm a straight man with quite a few gay friends, not homophobic I don't think, and I have to say I certainly can't remember ever thinking/worrying about anyone "pegging" me, like... ever.
He sees gay men as some sort of threatening predators? There's some serious backstory here, I bet.
I reflexively hate how the answer to everything on AskMe seems to be "get therapy", but my hunch on this one says it can't hurt. Something's weird.
posted by rokusan at 8:42 AM on June 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
He sees gay men as some sort of threatening predators? There's some serious backstory here, I bet.
I reflexively hate how the answer to everything on AskMe seems to be "get therapy", but my hunch on this one says it can't hurt. Something's weird.
posted by rokusan at 8:42 AM on June 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
I'm going to crib a Seinfeld "joke" here- some dudes are skittish about gay men because deep down, we know we are susceptible to a good sales pitch. We know how we have gone to the store, seen ugly shoes, and all of a sudden a salesperson convinces us they are awesome and suddenly we wake up with these ugly shoes in our closet. It isn't they are closeted or curious, just that they know how one's social and biological urges can accidentally cause us to do things we wouldn't do in the light of day.
More seriously, the people I've known who are like this are people who generally lack the ability to see things from anyone else's perspective but their own. When confronted with someone who is gay, their minds instantly imagine *themselves* getting pegged, rather than imagining they are someone who likes it. And, as having sex with someone of a gender we aren't attracted to would generally be gross, they can't help but be grossed out. When they try to put themselves in someone's shoes, they do it literally. And the subtle narcissism that makes some people believe that what we like is the standard by which all others are judged.
I also think a big issue with homophobia is the incorrect conflation of homosexuality with perverts/rapists/pedophiles. That homosexuality is a subset of being a [sic] sex maniac, rather than being a separate thing.
So, how does he deal with it? Help him become more empathetic, in the vein of being able to imagine how someone else *feels* and also why. It is a hard thing for a lot of people to do, to not just empathize that someone feels sad or horny, but to imagine that you are feeling that for the same reasons they are.
One way I've tried (both for my own self, and to try to poke others) is to say something like this: "Think about how much you like girls, and how good it feels when someone likes you back. Awesome, right? Now, think about the girls. They like men, and think it is awesome when a man likes them back. You don't have to actually be attracted to a man to be able to *imagine* what it might be like to feel those kinds of strong feelings as though you are. Same thing for homosexuals. Imagine how good it feels to like someone and be liked back, and then imagine how fucked up it is to think that *their* feelings aren't just as legitimate as yours, simply because you don't share them."
posted by gjc at 8:48 AM on June 7, 2010 [6 favorites]
More seriously, the people I've known who are like this are people who generally lack the ability to see things from anyone else's perspective but their own. When confronted with someone who is gay, their minds instantly imagine *themselves* getting pegged, rather than imagining they are someone who likes it. And, as having sex with someone of a gender we aren't attracted to would generally be gross, they can't help but be grossed out. When they try to put themselves in someone's shoes, they do it literally. And the subtle narcissism that makes some people believe that what we like is the standard by which all others are judged.
I also think a big issue with homophobia is the incorrect conflation of homosexuality with perverts/rapists/pedophiles. That homosexuality is a subset of being a [sic] sex maniac, rather than being a separate thing.
So, how does he deal with it? Help him become more empathetic, in the vein of being able to imagine how someone else *feels* and also why. It is a hard thing for a lot of people to do, to not just empathize that someone feels sad or horny, but to imagine that you are feeling that for the same reasons they are.
One way I've tried (both for my own self, and to try to poke others) is to say something like this: "Think about how much you like girls, and how good it feels when someone likes you back. Awesome, right? Now, think about the girls. They like men, and think it is awesome when a man likes them back. You don't have to actually be attracted to a man to be able to *imagine* what it might be like to feel those kinds of strong feelings as though you are. Same thing for homosexuals. Imagine how good it feels to like someone and be liked back, and then imagine how fucked up it is to think that *their* feelings aren't just as legitimate as yours, simply because you don't share them."
posted by gjc at 8:48 AM on June 7, 2010 [6 favorites]
I reflexively hate how the answer to everything on AskMe seems to be "get therapy", but my hunch on this one says it can't hurt. Something's weird.
The problem here is that the husband didn't post the question. Maybe it's a good idea for him to get some therapy, but will he? From the way he talks, I doubt it. And if the OP guilts him into therapy, I doubt he'll go into in with an receptive mindset.
posted by grumblebee at 8:52 AM on June 7, 2010
The problem here is that the husband didn't post the question. Maybe it's a good idea for him to get some therapy, but will he? From the way he talks, I doubt it. And if the OP guilts him into therapy, I doubt he'll go into in with an receptive mindset.
posted by grumblebee at 8:52 AM on June 7, 2010
Why do you feel he needs to change? Are we no longer in a world where people can feel one way or another?
I mean, does he go down the street bashing gays? Does he insult them? Is he doing anything overtly anti-gay?
If not, then give him a break. I know I'd be pretty upset if my SO of 15 years suddenly went on the internet asking for people's advice on how to change me. Get therapy for him?! Give me a break..
posted by eas98 at 8:59 AM on June 7, 2010
I mean, does he go down the street bashing gays? Does he insult them? Is he doing anything overtly anti-gay?
If not, then give him a break. I know I'd be pretty upset if my SO of 15 years suddenly went on the internet asking for people's advice on how to change me. Get therapy for him?! Give me a break..
posted by eas98 at 8:59 AM on June 7, 2010
Response by poster: Brandon Blatcher: It means that he feels threatened by anything I'd ask for that does undermines (or something?) his studliness. It worries me because unlike other difficult topics it is so hard to find a way to discuss it with him. And the homophobia struck me as being part and parcel of that attitude, though as people have pointed out it may be separate.
posted by Omnomnom at 9:01 AM on June 7, 2010
posted by Omnomnom at 9:01 AM on June 7, 2010
Speaking from experience, the best thing in the world that could happen to him would be for a buddy he really likes to come out as gay unexpectedly. BAM, suddenly gay people can be great people and whole people and the across-the-board revulsion reluctantly shrivels in the face of irrefutable logic and reality. Soo... see if you can set that up. I kid, but as others have said, exposure ultimately may be the only way to desensitize. It's easy to demonize someone when you never have to acknowledge them as human, which you can pull off if you're never around them and don't have to look them in the face or see them in the context of their whole life. So maybe inviting your gay friends to do things with the two of you would be a way to give him some exposure and let it have whatever affect it's going to have on him. I think that will ultimately be more effective than any logical conversations about it.
If all you can do for now is the logical conversations, it may help to focus less on why it's wrong and more on why it's a waste and on the incentives for letting it go. Having feelings of resentment and rejection for gay people is a giant waste of energy. They're here, and they're not going anywhere no matter what he thinks or feels or says. It's like trying to air condition the outdoors in summer by opening the windows and cranking up the A/C. All of that energy is directed towards a target that isn't affected by it and doesn't respond to it. So it's just lost. And he could have spent it on something else. By rejecting what is, he creates an ongoing dissonance inside himself that hurts only him. It's like hugging a cactus - painful and unnecessary. Sometimes that kind of internal dissonance can act as fuel for change, such as in political matters. Not here though, because there's no mechanism by which he can de-gayify anybody. Let go - you'll feel so much better!
That's the mental journey I went through on this issue. The payoff at the end of it was that it was such a relief to release this issue, to set it down and walk on. By accepting the reality of it I freed up a lot of energy, let go of a constant prickly seed of poison, and life went on. When I stopped defending and attacking, you'd think that whatever I was defending against or attacking would then be freed up to pursue whatever course it otherwise would have taken (this is what he fears). But no horde of lascivious gay guys suddenly invaded when I stopped vigilantly patrolling the border in my head and in muttered conversations behind closed doors. They were never looking to invade in the first place, it turns out, and had just been going about their own lives like anybody, without much thought for me. And to the degree any of them had any private thoughts about me, it never affected me, just like my private thoughts about zillions of women never affected those women. Your husband has those private thoughts too yet they don't make him a threat to anyone. Likewise, other people's private thoughts, guys included, don't make them a threat to your husband. If he never wants to have sex with men, he's pretty much sorted.
Stopping rejecting people feels good. Having a new category of people for friend potential feels good. Life is better when you've got one less thing to worry about. And if your worry accomplishes nothing and never will, all the more reason to let it go.
It's always tricky to try to change someone else, but you can make clear that you don't want to hear that kind of thing, and you can tell him that since you care about him, you'd love to see him get to a place where he doesn't have to have this negative thing in his life.
posted by Askr at 9:23 AM on June 7, 2010 [5 favorites]
If all you can do for now is the logical conversations, it may help to focus less on why it's wrong and more on why it's a waste and on the incentives for letting it go. Having feelings of resentment and rejection for gay people is a giant waste of energy. They're here, and they're not going anywhere no matter what he thinks or feels or says. It's like trying to air condition the outdoors in summer by opening the windows and cranking up the A/C. All of that energy is directed towards a target that isn't affected by it and doesn't respond to it. So it's just lost. And he could have spent it on something else. By rejecting what is, he creates an ongoing dissonance inside himself that hurts only him. It's like hugging a cactus - painful and unnecessary. Sometimes that kind of internal dissonance can act as fuel for change, such as in political matters. Not here though, because there's no mechanism by which he can de-gayify anybody. Let go - you'll feel so much better!
That's the mental journey I went through on this issue. The payoff at the end of it was that it was such a relief to release this issue, to set it down and walk on. By accepting the reality of it I freed up a lot of energy, let go of a constant prickly seed of poison, and life went on. When I stopped defending and attacking, you'd think that whatever I was defending against or attacking would then be freed up to pursue whatever course it otherwise would have taken (this is what he fears). But no horde of lascivious gay guys suddenly invaded when I stopped vigilantly patrolling the border in my head and in muttered conversations behind closed doors. They were never looking to invade in the first place, it turns out, and had just been going about their own lives like anybody, without much thought for me. And to the degree any of them had any private thoughts about me, it never affected me, just like my private thoughts about zillions of women never affected those women. Your husband has those private thoughts too yet they don't make him a threat to anyone. Likewise, other people's private thoughts, guys included, don't make them a threat to your husband. If he never wants to have sex with men, he's pretty much sorted.
Stopping rejecting people feels good. Having a new category of people for friend potential feels good. Life is better when you've got one less thing to worry about. And if your worry accomplishes nothing and never will, all the more reason to let it go.
It's always tricky to try to change someone else, but you can make clear that you don't want to hear that kind of thing, and you can tell him that since you care about him, you'd love to see him get to a place where he doesn't have to have this negative thing in his life.
posted by Askr at 9:23 AM on June 7, 2010 [5 favorites]
Has your husband never had friendships with gay men or women--no relatives? I find that hard to believe (I'm not arguing, I'm just saying). We had events occur around my family that made me deeply skeptical of all gay men for at least a couple of years, and it was through remembering that I had friends in high school & college & afterward, and a close friend of my parents' who was gay (which was apparent to them even though he wasn't out, but as I kid, I just thought he was eccentric). Is there anyone in his past that he has fond memories of who is gay? It seems to me--and by no means am I any expert--that he has a hard time separating a person's sexual orientation from that person's character. That is, he seems to have a hard time recognizing that people who are gay are just that: people.
I have a close friend who has what I will call culturally-patterned racism. He has a fear of blacks as a group, but has open and caring relationships with individuals who are black. It took a long time to break through his thick skull that his generalizing included those friends, and we did it partially by consistently and immediately telling him that something he was saying was not acceptable. We went through--honestly--years of letting him know this, including ending conversations or leaving gatherings. Now, I understand that this is much closer to home and you may not have the option to leave, but you always have the option to make ground rules about not accepting hateful remarks about anyone. I read nothing that suggests that he objects if you draw that line. It may take longer for him to understand that not every person male or female is out to jump his bones, although I don't think it is terribly beneficial for you to frame it that "he isn't that much of a stud" to him--he already is insecure about his masculinity according to what you've written.
I am wondering how much his cultural upbringing has to do with this--my question brought about by your asking (is that the right word in English?). Some cultures place an inordinate amount of pressure on men to be All Man, with great denial about any men in their culture being gay, when of course there are--although suppression/oppression are likely. That would also fit with his not wanting to discuss any sexual behavior, even with you. Not healthy, in my opinion, but my partner and I have almost always been able to discuss anything, perhaps because our parents were considerably repressed.
I haven't read the bell hooks book referred to upthread, but I am an unabashed devourer of anything she writes that comes across my path, so I'll have to read that one too and also recommend it to you without having to read it first. I am a little surprised to hear her described as a radical feminist. Is that what they are calling "common sense" these days? Then sign me up as a radical feminist, too.
Finally, I think--and it is only opinion, not scientific fact--that we all have a range of feelings and sexual attractions. Even those of us married 33 years. I'm straight, but I'd be a liar if I didn't admit that I've remarked "damn, he's cute/hot" to which my wife usually will agree and she the same. You've been married 15, and perhaps part of the friction is that inability to talk to each other about what you find sexually intriguing or attractive. That's the topic of another AskMe, though. It sounds like your man has a caring and sympathetic partner. Continue to be a good example for him so that he can see that it is safe and healthy to give up those fears he carries with him.
posted by beelzbubba at 9:41 AM on June 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
I have a close friend who has what I will call culturally-patterned racism. He has a fear of blacks as a group, but has open and caring relationships with individuals who are black. It took a long time to break through his thick skull that his generalizing included those friends, and we did it partially by consistently and immediately telling him that something he was saying was not acceptable. We went through--honestly--years of letting him know this, including ending conversations or leaving gatherings. Now, I understand that this is much closer to home and you may not have the option to leave, but you always have the option to make ground rules about not accepting hateful remarks about anyone. I read nothing that suggests that he objects if you draw that line. It may take longer for him to understand that not every person male or female is out to jump his bones, although I don't think it is terribly beneficial for you to frame it that "he isn't that much of a stud" to him--he already is insecure about his masculinity according to what you've written.
I am wondering how much his cultural upbringing has to do with this--my question brought about by your asking (is that the right word in English?). Some cultures place an inordinate amount of pressure on men to be All Man, with great denial about any men in their culture being gay, when of course there are--although suppression/oppression are likely. That would also fit with his not wanting to discuss any sexual behavior, even with you. Not healthy, in my opinion, but my partner and I have almost always been able to discuss anything, perhaps because our parents were considerably repressed.
I haven't read the bell hooks book referred to upthread, but I am an unabashed devourer of anything she writes that comes across my path, so I'll have to read that one too and also recommend it to you without having to read it first. I am a little surprised to hear her described as a radical feminist. Is that what they are calling "common sense" these days? Then sign me up as a radical feminist, too.
Finally, I think--and it is only opinion, not scientific fact--that we all have a range of feelings and sexual attractions. Even those of us married 33 years. I'm straight, but I'd be a liar if I didn't admit that I've remarked "damn, he's cute/hot" to which my wife usually will agree and she the same. You've been married 15, and perhaps part of the friction is that inability to talk to each other about what you find sexually intriguing or attractive. That's the topic of another AskMe, though. It sounds like your man has a caring and sympathetic partner. Continue to be a good example for him so that he can see that it is safe and healthy to give up those fears he carries with him.
posted by beelzbubba at 9:41 AM on June 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
It means that he feels threatened by anything I'd ask for that does undermines (or something?) his studliness.
You keep bringing up talking, but maybe it's time for another tactic? He clearly isn't a talker, so try writing him a letter or email and let him read it privately. I know it's not the ideal situation, but at least it would be some form of communication, if it worked.
You also mentioned he won't discuss sex when it's broad daylight out. I can't tell if that was a joke or not, but if not, you seem to be saying that there are times when he is more willing to talk. So yeah, try to talk to him more at those times. I'm guessing it's important that he feel safe and secure when talking about something that's painful or embarrassing to him, so the more that you can do to establish a safe place and consistently do so over time, the more he'll probably open up.
The dude clearly has some issues, just in terms of not wanting to talk about sex stuff. You need to get inside his head and history and figure out what's going there. Maybe some bad incidents in school, a weird uncle, some strange family dynamic about OTHERS, I dunno, but clearly there's some tangled wires in his head, even without the homophobia.
Take it slow, make small steps and view it as an opportunity to learn more about the man you love and in time, you'll come to understand and help him more.
Good luck!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:01 AM on June 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
You keep bringing up talking, but maybe it's time for another tactic? He clearly isn't a talker, so try writing him a letter or email and let him read it privately. I know it's not the ideal situation, but at least it would be some form of communication, if it worked.
You also mentioned he won't discuss sex when it's broad daylight out. I can't tell if that was a joke or not, but if not, you seem to be saying that there are times when he is more willing to talk. So yeah, try to talk to him more at those times. I'm guessing it's important that he feel safe and secure when talking about something that's painful or embarrassing to him, so the more that you can do to establish a safe place and consistently do so over time, the more he'll probably open up.
The dude clearly has some issues, just in terms of not wanting to talk about sex stuff. You need to get inside his head and history and figure out what's going there. Maybe some bad incidents in school, a weird uncle, some strange family dynamic about OTHERS, I dunno, but clearly there's some tangled wires in his head, even without the homophobia.
Take it slow, make small steps and view it as an opportunity to learn more about the man you love and in time, you'll come to understand and help him more.
Good luck!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:01 AM on June 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
It might help for you to separate off from acceptance of the rights and tolerance, the issue of homosexual acts for lack of a better word. Rights and tolerance are probably the much lower hanging fruit. If he is receptive to discussion of human rights and social justice as he sounds he might be, you might be able to approach it obliquely, and in small bits and pieces as Lynn Never suggests. For example, you are probably a lot more likely to get traction with suggesting that gay bashing is terrible, and no one deserves to be beaten for loving the same sex, than compelling him to accept pegging as a great activity that everyone should try RIGHT NAO!!!!1! You may find that he makes his own way towards acceptance - and may grow less squeamish as times goes along.
If it will come to your husband at all, I doubt it will come like the reckoning. I’m going to admit my shame, but it my early teens I was like many of my peers a little funny about homosexuality, finding it a bit lulzy and strange. Acceptance came to me in small revelations, probably starting first with feeling anger and revulsion at violence against gay people and minorities in general, followed by acceptance that it's something one is born with, is no harm to society and others, love is between people and biological sex is irrelevant and so on. Not being squeamish seeing PDA's between people of the same sex, and being able to challenge people's narrow mindedness came a little bit later and gradually. I'm pretty sure if I hadn't done the previous ground work, I wouldn't have dropped feeling ick about it.
That’s not to say that you can’t help him along the way. Don't hold back in expressing pro rights while maybe being gentle with him, and try and find areas of agreement where you can. There must be some. You might even want to make a mental list of things you think might be easier to broach with him, but I don't suggest you approach it like a shopping list to tick off. But you also may have to be accepting of the fact that he may never come round completely, but he sounds in the least that he is willing, and cares for you. Prognosis is good.
posted by ultrabuff at 10:02 AM on June 7, 2010
If it will come to your husband at all, I doubt it will come like the reckoning. I’m going to admit my shame, but it my early teens I was like many of my peers a little funny about homosexuality, finding it a bit lulzy and strange. Acceptance came to me in small revelations, probably starting first with feeling anger and revulsion at violence against gay people and minorities in general, followed by acceptance that it's something one is born with, is no harm to society and others, love is between people and biological sex is irrelevant and so on. Not being squeamish seeing PDA's between people of the same sex, and being able to challenge people's narrow mindedness came a little bit later and gradually. I'm pretty sure if I hadn't done the previous ground work, I wouldn't have dropped feeling ick about it.
That’s not to say that you can’t help him along the way. Don't hold back in expressing pro rights while maybe being gentle with him, and try and find areas of agreement where you can. There must be some. You might even want to make a mental list of things you think might be easier to broach with him, but I don't suggest you approach it like a shopping list to tick off. But you also may have to be accepting of the fact that he may never come round completely, but he sounds in the least that he is willing, and cares for you. Prognosis is good.
posted by ultrabuff at 10:02 AM on June 7, 2010
A lot of our irrational fears -- and in this case, it does seem to be real fear -- stem from a combination of our upbringing and our own insecurities. Fear of being raped by another man is a very interesting one to think about, because it feeds insecurity (thoughts of being too weak to resist, loss of control is a big theme here) and gets hyped by ignorance (knowing nothing about gay men beyond what he's learned from his upbringing.)
Addressing the ignorance is not going to happen at a logical, reasonable level; as much as we hate to admit it, our fears are not based in reason. For instance, logically I am well aware that air travel is extremely safe, but I'm terrified of it anyway, and no amount of talking or arguing is going to change that deep, physical feeling I get when I'm flying and turbulence starts. Arguably the only thing that would solve it for me is flying so often that I get used to it, and similarly your husband's ignorance will likely only be assuaged by forming friendships with LGBT folks. Hard to do in your situation, apparently.
The insecurity here, though, seems to be running rampant through your relationship -- he can't discuss issues of your own physical intimacy without freaking out, for instance -- and so if I were you I'd draw a firm line in the sand on him verbalizing his inappropriate thoughts about LGBT folks, but then solve the problem with the insecurity at a broader level. Therapy is hugely helpful for this, although if he's one of those guys who refuses to see a therapist, that will be problematic.
One final thought, given his notably irrational fear that these men are going to rape him...is there any chance he was molested as a child? If so, his fear (presumably never dealt with in a healthy fashion) wouldn't be quite as irrational.
posted by davejay at 10:12 AM on June 7, 2010
Addressing the ignorance is not going to happen at a logical, reasonable level; as much as we hate to admit it, our fears are not based in reason. For instance, logically I am well aware that air travel is extremely safe, but I'm terrified of it anyway, and no amount of talking or arguing is going to change that deep, physical feeling I get when I'm flying and turbulence starts. Arguably the only thing that would solve it for me is flying so often that I get used to it, and similarly your husband's ignorance will likely only be assuaged by forming friendships with LGBT folks. Hard to do in your situation, apparently.
The insecurity here, though, seems to be running rampant through your relationship -- he can't discuss issues of your own physical intimacy without freaking out, for instance -- and so if I were you I'd draw a firm line in the sand on him verbalizing his inappropriate thoughts about LGBT folks, but then solve the problem with the insecurity at a broader level. Therapy is hugely helpful for this, although if he's one of those guys who refuses to see a therapist, that will be problematic.
One final thought, given his notably irrational fear that these men are going to rape him...is there any chance he was molested as a child? If so, his fear (presumably never dealt with in a healthy fashion) wouldn't be quite as irrational.
posted by davejay at 10:12 AM on June 7, 2010
Response by poster: I'm very grateful that people are adressing both the "gay" and "sex life" problems in my post. Thank you! Both helps.
Several things resonate with me: the question about his attitude to feminism, the rigid rules, and the social status / childhood ribbing thing.
I will try to open up our social circle as people suggest, for more exposure. And I will focus on making our sex life and his inhibitions less taboo and safe to share. I hope that it will make us both happier.
posted by Omnomnom at 10:18 AM on June 7, 2010
Several things resonate with me: the question about his attitude to feminism, the rigid rules, and the social status / childhood ribbing thing.
I will try to open up our social circle as people suggest, for more exposure. And I will focus on making our sex life and his inhibitions less taboo and safe to share. I hope that it will make us both happier.
posted by Omnomnom at 10:18 AM on June 7, 2010
Response by poster: Re: childhood rape - I kind of doubt it but I'll keep an ear open for it. But his fathers best friend and his father kept snarking about longhaired footballers looking "gay", gay was the worst insult at school and it was apparently a very boy eat boy world he grew up in.
I doubt anyone in that environment owned up to being gay, so he knew no one gay. Except my ex boyfriend. But the guy turned out to be such an idiot (ah, bad choices...) that that was more detrimental than anything.
posted by Omnomnom at 10:24 AM on June 7, 2010
I doubt anyone in that environment owned up to being gay, so he knew no one gay. Except my ex boyfriend. But the guy turned out to be such an idiot (ah, bad choices...) that that was more detrimental than anything.
posted by Omnomnom at 10:24 AM on June 7, 2010
Between the literal phobia of being involved in gay sex, the unshakeable connection in his mind between gay men and pedophilia, and his strong, trans-rational need to be the dominant, studly one in bed and out of it. . . I would definitely say that y'all need to at least rule out the idea of a traumatic childhood event. Maybe it didn't happen to him; it doesn't have to have, in order to mess him up. (How close is he to the cousin who threw himself out a window?)
I've dealt with a lot of normal homophobes in my life, by which I mean people who think that gay people are morally wrong and kind of icky, and what you're describing from your husband sounds different to me.
posted by KathrynT at 10:27 AM on June 7, 2010
I've dealt with a lot of normal homophobes in my life, by which I mean people who think that gay people are morally wrong and kind of icky, and what you're describing from your husband sounds different to me.
posted by KathrynT at 10:27 AM on June 7, 2010
Wait a sec. . . you used the term "footballers" . . . he's not from the States, is he? Where did he grow up?
posted by KathrynT at 10:31 AM on June 7, 2010
posted by KathrynT at 10:31 AM on June 7, 2010
Response by poster: Europe - I'd rather not get more specific, but it's not a culture generally associated with machismo.
posted by Omnomnom at 10:36 AM on June 7, 2010
posted by Omnomnom at 10:36 AM on June 7, 2010
You don't need to get more specific, I don't think. Did he go to any sort of a boarding school, or a single-gender day school? I have a . . . relative. . . (I'm trying to avoid googlable embarassments) who went to a boys' boarding school who has alluded, quite shortly and unpleasantly, to the systematic culture of rape as a method of enforcing power differentials between older and younger students. Even if he was never a direct victim of such a scheme, growing up aware of the presence of such things could definitely traumatize someone.
Memail me if you want more details.
posted by KathrynT at 10:42 AM on June 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
Memail me if you want more details.
posted by KathrynT at 10:42 AM on June 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
Your husband is deeply uncomfortable with the idea of gay male sex, specifically genital-anal sex. In current gay male culture, the expression of sexuality is much more wild, interesting, adventurous than many people are comfortable with. This is typical of many men that I know; most of them seem to be straight. As a woman, I carry a fear of rape; perhaps he has a fear of rape, as well. That doesn't mean he hates men or gay men, it means that rape is a real, violent, crime, and many people fear it.
I find it unseemly and disrespectful to speculate on the sexual orientation of others, except people I want to date. So, I think we should respect his stated sexual orientation.
Get whatever documentation you can on the lack of link between homosexuality and pedophilia. Tell him you can understand his discomfort about sexual acts, but believing information that's provably false makes no sense.
Does he make a lot of anti-gay comments? "That's faggy, ... gay, ... he must be queer," etc? Address the behavior. Sweetie, when you make those disrespectful anti-gay comments, it helps maintain the culture in which gay people, like Matthew Shepard, Charlie Howard, etc., are beaten up, tortured and murdered. That's just wrong, and I'm asking you to stop.
Respect his actual feelings, and his right to have personal beliefs.
Rent Milk. It's a really good movie, and a way for him to see some gay people in a multi-faceted way.
posted by theora55 at 11:10 AM on June 7, 2010
I find it unseemly and disrespectful to speculate on the sexual orientation of others, except people I want to date. So, I think we should respect his stated sexual orientation.
Get whatever documentation you can on the lack of link between homosexuality and pedophilia. Tell him you can understand his discomfort about sexual acts, but believing information that's provably false makes no sense.
Does he make a lot of anti-gay comments? "That's faggy, ... gay, ... he must be queer," etc? Address the behavior. Sweetie, when you make those disrespectful anti-gay comments, it helps maintain the culture in which gay people, like Matthew Shepard, Charlie Howard, etc., are beaten up, tortured and murdered. That's just wrong, and I'm asking you to stop.
Respect his actual feelings, and his right to have personal beliefs.
Rent Milk. It's a really good movie, and a way for him to see some gay people in a multi-faceted way.
posted by theora55 at 11:10 AM on June 7, 2010
Just totally speculating here only because my 1/2 brother is similar. And the reason why I think he's homophobic is that I highly believe he was molested. He was in and out of the foster system. I know he was physically/mentally abused but based on his constant inappropriate, over concerning jokes about turning gay, being gay, hey that hug wasn't gay, I'm thinking he had some trauma that's unresolved, he feels like he was at fault, etc.
Do you know if you husband was the victim of sexual abuse? If so, he should seek therapy.
For homophobia with no known origan/excuse, I will never understand it.
posted by stormpooper at 11:26 AM on June 7, 2010
Do you know if you husband was the victim of sexual abuse? If so, he should seek therapy.
For homophobia with no known origan/excuse, I will never understand it.
posted by stormpooper at 11:26 AM on June 7, 2010
You don't need to get more specific, I don't think. Did he go to any sort of a boarding school, or a single-gender day school? I have a . . . relative. . . (I'm trying to avoid googlable embarassments) who went to a boys' boarding school who has alluded, quite shortly and unpleasantly, to the systematic culture of rape as a method of enforcing power differentials between older and younger students. Even if he was never a direct victim of such a scheme, growing up aware of the presence of such things could definitely traumatize someone.
KathrynT's comment is very insightful. Again, I think that we are NOT talking about mere bigotry or ignorance here and it's a mistake to say that "he's just sheltered/ignorant/etc, just find him some nice gay friends and all will be hunky-dory." This often works with your common or garden "ew, ick" reactions to gays.
Your husband's fear of rape is on a different plane altogether. This is why I'm saying "get therapy!" Most bigoted homophobic guys don't have this "OMG THEY ARE GOING TO RAPE ME!" reaction, it's more like just "ick" or "against nature." The fear of rape is much more deep-seated, and IMO can't be cured with just a little talk and some cultural lessons. Your husband probably has had one or more experiences of someone (parent? peer?) forcing him to do something, against his will, in a very unpleasant way. It could have been sexual in nature - or it might not! Many people with strict, overbearing, STFU-you're-just-a-kid type parents (or teachers) develop these fears of being bullied/forced to do something they don't want to do. They put up iron boundaries to assuage their fears of ever, ever having their boundaries violated again.
Therapy. Please. Yes, I do say that a lot, but IMO, good therapy can be as much of a necessity as vitamins and medical checkups. It's a godsend and very underrated.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 11:28 AM on June 7, 2010
KathrynT's comment is very insightful. Again, I think that we are NOT talking about mere bigotry or ignorance here and it's a mistake to say that "he's just sheltered/ignorant/etc, just find him some nice gay friends and all will be hunky-dory." This often works with your common or garden "ew, ick" reactions to gays.
Your husband's fear of rape is on a different plane altogether. This is why I'm saying "get therapy!" Most bigoted homophobic guys don't have this "OMG THEY ARE GOING TO RAPE ME!" reaction, it's more like just "ick" or "against nature." The fear of rape is much more deep-seated, and IMO can't be cured with just a little talk and some cultural lessons. Your husband probably has had one or more experiences of someone (parent? peer?) forcing him to do something, against his will, in a very unpleasant way. It could have been sexual in nature - or it might not! Many people with strict, overbearing, STFU-you're-just-a-kid type parents (or teachers) develop these fears of being bullied/forced to do something they don't want to do. They put up iron boundaries to assuage their fears of ever, ever having their boundaries violated again.
Therapy. Please. Yes, I do say that a lot, but IMO, good therapy can be as much of a necessity as vitamins and medical checkups. It's a godsend and very underrated.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 11:28 AM on June 7, 2010
When I was in my mid teens to early 20s, my father's politics took a sharp right turn -- around the same time the company he worked for and that he had helped start was sold (much to his dismay), and a shake-up in management took place that left him relatively powerless.
Not coincidentally, I think, he became quite intolerant of any minority group that demanded equal civil rights. And since this was the 1980s, the minority group most in the spotlight was people with HIV/AIDS. At the time, Dad actually said (not in so many words) that anal sex is unnatural, and people who have anal sex shouldn't be surprised if they became terribly ill.
Well.
I disagreed with Dad, and let him know that, but since he is a champion arguer and I was an emotional, idealistic teenager, our debates didn't go very far toward swaying him to my side. I don't think he had any "road to Damascus"-type revelation on the subject, either; what eventually wore down his homophobia was an accumulation of events:
1. Meeting my gay and lesbian friends and finding them funny and intelligent (Dad is generally an extrovert and likes meeting new people, so that helped).
2. Therapy. His boss actually ordered him to see a counselor, because Dad was so angry that none of his coworkers would approach him with a question or a mistake, for fear of being chewed out. See "champion arguer," above.
(NOTE: I generally think that counseling works better when the person being counseled takes the initiative, rather than being forced into it. But in this particular situation, the mandate worked out well for my family, as well as for Dad's coworkers. My mother has confided in me that she was glad Dad had been told to get therapy, because his anger was wearing her down, too, but he wouldn't have seen a counselor solely on her suggestion.)
3. Living through the political vicissitudes at work and coming out on the upside, plus learning to detach himself from work as his identity. (This was amplified by me and my sister leaving home, which he has said made him realize how relatively little time he spent w/us when we were growing up, compared with putting in 100-hour workweeks.)
4. Making new friendships himself -- with people who shared his interests and who turned out to be gay or lesbian: e.g., when he was looking for a new running buddy, and the only other guy Dad's age who was still competing turned out to be a gay retired minister. (That same guy officiated at my sister's wedding, and we all had a great time.)
I feel for you, because I was dismayed that my dad, who I loved and admired, had such wrong-headed ideas. But his perceptions and emotions did evolve, over the years, almost without my noticing, to the point where he asked me "What did you get them?" when I told him that an old friend who lives in Massachusetts had married his boyfriend. You can't will it, but it can happen.
posted by virago at 11:40 AM on June 7, 2010
Not coincidentally, I think, he became quite intolerant of any minority group that demanded equal civil rights. And since this was the 1980s, the minority group most in the spotlight was people with HIV/AIDS. At the time, Dad actually said (not in so many words) that anal sex is unnatural, and people who have anal sex shouldn't be surprised if they became terribly ill.
Well.
I disagreed with Dad, and let him know that, but since he is a champion arguer and I was an emotional, idealistic teenager, our debates didn't go very far toward swaying him to my side. I don't think he had any "road to Damascus"-type revelation on the subject, either; what eventually wore down his homophobia was an accumulation of events:
1. Meeting my gay and lesbian friends and finding them funny and intelligent (Dad is generally an extrovert and likes meeting new people, so that helped).
2. Therapy. His boss actually ordered him to see a counselor, because Dad was so angry that none of his coworkers would approach him with a question or a mistake, for fear of being chewed out. See "champion arguer," above.
(NOTE: I generally think that counseling works better when the person being counseled takes the initiative, rather than being forced into it. But in this particular situation, the mandate worked out well for my family, as well as for Dad's coworkers. My mother has confided in me that she was glad Dad had been told to get therapy, because his anger was wearing her down, too, but he wouldn't have seen a counselor solely on her suggestion.)
3. Living through the political vicissitudes at work and coming out on the upside, plus learning to detach himself from work as his identity. (This was amplified by me and my sister leaving home, which he has said made him realize how relatively little time he spent w/us when we were growing up, compared with putting in 100-hour workweeks.)
4. Making new friendships himself -- with people who shared his interests and who turned out to be gay or lesbian: e.g., when he was looking for a new running buddy, and the only other guy Dad's age who was still competing turned out to be a gay retired minister. (That same guy officiated at my sister's wedding, and we all had a great time.)
I feel for you, because I was dismayed that my dad, who I loved and admired, had such wrong-headed ideas. But his perceptions and emotions did evolve, over the years, almost without my noticing, to the point where he asked me "What did you get them?" when I told him that an old friend who lives in Massachusetts had married his boyfriend. You can't will it, but it can happen.
posted by virago at 11:40 AM on June 7, 2010
I'm gonna vote with the Dr. Drews above and vote for "bad childhood experience." The masculinity thing makes a lot of sense if he had such an experience and his family consisted of men talking about faggy hair on footballers. The sex you two have would follow on from this.
posted by rhizome at 11:45 AM on June 7, 2010
posted by rhizome at 11:45 AM on June 7, 2010
I'm echoing everyone that thinks maybe he had a bad childhood experience. That's all just conjecture, of course. I think that as far as the homophobia goes, just try not hammering him on the issue, have your friends over and let him learn to see them as just regular folks. That will go a long way, but it will take time.
About the sexual issues, have you ever shared your beliefs about what makes a man really, really sexy to you? Have you ever let him know that masculinity and being a stallion in bed are not necessarily related for you, personally?
What about your sexual fantasies? Have you shared them with him, through storytelling? Encouraged him to share his?
Rather than getting frustrated when he won't experiment, I wonder if you could introduce him to the sexual fantasies of real women, rather than what his Dad and the other role models in his life *think* women want in a man?
I'd get him a copy of My Secret Garden or Women on Top. Leave it wherever he will actually read it, whether in the bedroom, bathroom, or by his laptop, whatever. You could even highlight specific fantasies that really, really turn you on. Let him know that you are interested in pursuing these fantasies with him because he IS your definition of a masculine man, and see how that goes.
Good luck!
posted by misha at 12:09 PM on June 7, 2010
About the sexual issues, have you ever shared your beliefs about what makes a man really, really sexy to you? Have you ever let him know that masculinity and being a stallion in bed are not necessarily related for you, personally?
What about your sexual fantasies? Have you shared them with him, through storytelling? Encouraged him to share his?
Rather than getting frustrated when he won't experiment, I wonder if you could introduce him to the sexual fantasies of real women, rather than what his Dad and the other role models in his life *think* women want in a man?
I'd get him a copy of My Secret Garden or Women on Top. Leave it wherever he will actually read it, whether in the bedroom, bathroom, or by his laptop, whatever. You could even highlight specific fantasies that really, really turn you on. Let him know that you are interested in pursuing these fantasies with him because he IS your definition of a masculine man, and see how that goes.
Good luck!
posted by misha at 12:09 PM on June 7, 2010
"...or a boner in the locker room could be making him afraid that he is gay, or that he is giving off gay vibes somehow."
Yep, it could be that parts of his upbringing were so bigoted and petty that he has this deep seated pavlovian response to all things gay. If at any point he (or anyone else) even broached the idea in his mind 'am I gay?' all these sirens went off and his brain went to defcon 5 at the mere thought of the subject, even though the answer might have been 'Nope, Im not.' Since he wasn't able to arrive at a very logical and non-emotional answer to a simple question, he has to keep the gay boogeyman at bay, and part of his programming is using language as a magical barrier between him and the knee jerk bad feelings he gets when he starts to feel the question approaching.
posted by ian1977 at 6:48 PM on June 7, 2010
Yep, it could be that parts of his upbringing were so bigoted and petty that he has this deep seated pavlovian response to all things gay. If at any point he (or anyone else) even broached the idea in his mind 'am I gay?' all these sirens went off and his brain went to defcon 5 at the mere thought of the subject, even though the answer might have been 'Nope, Im not.' Since he wasn't able to arrive at a very logical and non-emotional answer to a simple question, he has to keep the gay boogeyman at bay, and part of his programming is using language as a magical barrier between him and the knee jerk bad feelings he gets when he starts to feel the question approaching.
posted by ian1977 at 6:48 PM on June 7, 2010
My parents are somewhat homophobic. It's helped having a cousin come out of the closet (he recently came out after his youngest went to college, and having a 20+year marriage to a woman.) Still, my mom firmly believes that being sexually abused as a child causes gayness. Also, when said cousin was talking one day about being depressed, my dad asked him if he'd "gotten yourself into something you need help getting out of, because I'll get you help!" as though being gay was like being addicted to drugs or gambling. Basically, they've adopted an attitude of "it's okay as long as you aren't shoving it in my face." (That is, they wouldn't like it if my cousin brought over a boyfriend to our house to visit with him.) Which I've accepted as the most I can hope for out of them.
I don't know if this will help, but Why homophobes should support gay marriage (Youtube, NSFW). (Long story short, 50+% of marriages end in divorce... let them get married and be as miserable as straight people.)
posted by IndigoRain at 6:38 PM on June 8, 2010
I don't know if this will help, but Why homophobes should support gay marriage (Youtube, NSFW). (Long story short, 50+% of marriages end in divorce... let them get married and be as miserable as straight people.)
posted by IndigoRain at 6:38 PM on June 8, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:49 AM on June 7, 2010 [4 favorites]