Getting out and getting in
May 21, 2010 1:45 PM Subscribe
No .. really ... how can a US married couple without family ties to Europe move to a Western European country and live/work there for an extended period (at least 5 or 6 years)? Must you be ignorant of the "can't be done" thing in order to pull it off?
This comes up on ask.metafilter.com now and then and the general answer is "forget it unless you are single and getting married, or your parents were recent immigrants, it is impossible" and yet .. there are people who manage to do it. How do they pull it off?
We are a married couple in the US in good health. I am getting close to 40 and my wife is a few years younger. We are both in good health. No kids, none planned. No criminal records.
In short, we are bored with the US. Both of us have a very strong desire to live overseas for at least a few years to really experience a new culture, obtain fluency in at least one additional language, and just generally get out and see the world. We've lived on both coasts of the US and in the southwest. We're just done with it for now and want a few years of different+challenging+interesting.
So ...
GOAL: Live and work overseas for an extended period of time in a _safe_ first world (or approximately so) European country, preferably inside the EU.
NICE TO HAVES: Obtaining citizenship is not a priority, but it would be nice to at least get permanent residency and a passport (eventually).
FALLBACK: Getting into Canada seems like it should be absolutely straightforward given our health+my technical background+our finances and it is our fallback plan if a first world European country cannot be done.
CHALLENGE: Everyone seems to think this is impossible.
... how is this done? Because I know people who, young, seem to pull this off. The biggest thing in their favor is that they do not seem to know that it is impossible, so they just go and effectively skirt the law until it all works out. This simply wont work for professionals since the companies they'd be working for toe the line.
But I believe there must be .. SOME WAY TO DO IT.
Relevant personal details:
My wife works in a field which is pretty much tied to our current geographic area but works almost exclusively remotely via the internet, so she could relocate without any serious impact. It is not a needed skill area so she would expect to continue as is (working for clients in the US).
I'm a software engineer with many years of experience and have been quite successful in my career -- pretty much have reached the top of the engineering individual contributor career progression short of being a founder/CTO, have built successful products [without being too specific, many hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue for products where I played a substantial or key role], have a handful of patents, etc. I have some management experience but am not interested in climbing past second line manager, would be fine with 1st or 2nd line. I've worked quite substantially with customers and the parts of the company that define a product before building it. It is extremely unlikely that the kind of companies I work for will transfer me to an overseas location other than India or China, neither of which is desirable.
Language wise, we have skills in a few languages but they are unfortunately not ones that are relevant. Neither of us is opposed to learning a language up to and including taking intensive classes for an extended period (in fact, we'd like this).
Financially, we are fine so long as within a year or two, and from that point forward, we are covering our living expenses with ongoing employment. We are not wealthy; we cannot qualify for certain classes of investor visas that exist. Assuming we are living nicely and covering our expenses, I am willing to trade a _substantial_ amount of income for a better lifestyle, more time off, more interesting work, fewer 14 hour days and the chance to enjoy somewhere new.
temporary email: escapeornot [replace me with an at symbol] gmail.com
This comes up on ask.metafilter.com now and then and the general answer is "forget it unless you are single and getting married, or your parents were recent immigrants, it is impossible" and yet .. there are people who manage to do it. How do they pull it off?
We are a married couple in the US in good health. I am getting close to 40 and my wife is a few years younger. We are both in good health. No kids, none planned. No criminal records.
In short, we are bored with the US. Both of us have a very strong desire to live overseas for at least a few years to really experience a new culture, obtain fluency in at least one additional language, and just generally get out and see the world. We've lived on both coasts of the US and in the southwest. We're just done with it for now and want a few years of different+challenging+interesting.
So ...
GOAL: Live and work overseas for an extended period of time in a _safe_ first world (or approximately so) European country, preferably inside the EU.
NICE TO HAVES: Obtaining citizenship is not a priority, but it would be nice to at least get permanent residency and a passport (eventually).
FALLBACK: Getting into Canada seems like it should be absolutely straightforward given our health+my technical background+our finances and it is our fallback plan if a first world European country cannot be done.
CHALLENGE: Everyone seems to think this is impossible.
... how is this done? Because I know people who, young, seem to pull this off. The biggest thing in their favor is that they do not seem to know that it is impossible, so they just go and effectively skirt the law until it all works out. This simply wont work for professionals since the companies they'd be working for toe the line.
But I believe there must be .. SOME WAY TO DO IT.
Relevant personal details:
My wife works in a field which is pretty much tied to our current geographic area but works almost exclusively remotely via the internet, so she could relocate without any serious impact. It is not a needed skill area so she would expect to continue as is (working for clients in the US).
I'm a software engineer with many years of experience and have been quite successful in my career -- pretty much have reached the top of the engineering individual contributor career progression short of being a founder/CTO, have built successful products [without being too specific, many hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue for products where I played a substantial or key role], have a handful of patents, etc. I have some management experience but am not interested in climbing past second line manager, would be fine with 1st or 2nd line. I've worked quite substantially with customers and the parts of the company that define a product before building it. It is extremely unlikely that the kind of companies I work for will transfer me to an overseas location other than India or China, neither of which is desirable.
Language wise, we have skills in a few languages but they are unfortunately not ones that are relevant. Neither of us is opposed to learning a language up to and including taking intensive classes for an extended period (in fact, we'd like this).
Financially, we are fine so long as within a year or two, and from that point forward, we are covering our living expenses with ongoing employment. We are not wealthy; we cannot qualify for certain classes of investor visas that exist. Assuming we are living nicely and covering our expenses, I am willing to trade a _substantial_ amount of income for a better lifestyle, more time off, more interesting work, fewer 14 hour days and the chance to enjoy somewhere new.
temporary email: escapeornot [replace me with an at symbol] gmail.com
Find a Software Engineering company with a US presence and a large office in the location you want to move to. Go work for them. Tell HR you'd be interested in working in the location. Apply internally for every job that comes up in the location.
posted by IanMorr at 1:53 PM on May 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by IanMorr at 1:53 PM on May 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
You can try Australia or New Zealand. Both the countries have more flexible immigration processes that EU.
posted by WizKid at 2:04 PM on May 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by WizKid at 2:04 PM on May 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
Periodically, I think about living in Canada. I go and take this eligibility test to see if they'd let me. That's only a small part of the process, of course, but it's a place to start.
posted by rtha at 2:05 PM on May 21, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by rtha at 2:05 PM on May 21, 2010 [2 favorites]
It might be easier if one of you enters as a student (do a part time masters or something).
In the UK there's what is called a "Post-Study Work Visa":
Post-Study Work visa is a way for international graduates from UK universities to remain in the UK for a year after graduation. By doing so, a graduate visa holder can gain some UK work experience before returning to their home country, or applying for a further visa category such as the Tier 1 General Skilled or Work Permit to remain in the UK for longer.
posted by 2bucksplus at 2:09 PM on May 21, 2010
In the UK there's what is called a "Post-Study Work Visa":
Post-Study Work visa is a way for international graduates from UK universities to remain in the UK for a year after graduation. By doing so, a graduate visa holder can gain some UK work experience before returning to their home country, or applying for a further visa category such as the Tier 1 General Skilled or Work Permit to remain in the UK for longer.
posted by 2bucksplus at 2:09 PM on May 21, 2010
Look at USA JOBS for overseas jobs with the feds. There are also positions with NATO. I've seen a number of Western European IT and software related jobs with both in the past few months.
We've been looking try living overseas for a few years as well and this has been our starting point.
posted by chiefthe at 2:10 PM on May 21, 2010
We've been looking try living overseas for a few years as well and this has been our starting point.
posted by chiefthe at 2:10 PM on May 21, 2010
there are people who manage to do it. How do they pull it off?
They do it by getting jobs that are good enough that the company will sponsor them for the appropriate work visa. How that works exactly and which jobs qualify will vary to some degree by country, as will how easily the visa transfers over to the spouse. I'm planning on doing something like this this year (I'm a New Zealander) but I'll have a PhD and will be looking for an academic/research job, an area in which bringing in foreigners is somewhat common (and sometimes the visas are set up to make it easier). Given your level of experience and skills you should be able to find a qualifying job somewhere, assuming you target the right counties and take your time (my partner is a software engineer too so I've looked a little bit). You just need to do a lot of research. As an example, it's been a while since I looked but in The Netherlands a highly skilled migrant visa was dependant mainly on getting a job which paid enough money and there were jobs advertised for English speaking software developers (no idea how the recession has affected that though), so that would be a place to start investigating.
You would also likely find a qualifying job in NZ by the way, we're short of workers in your area and again hiring people from overseas is reasonably common in your field. IT jobs are generally arranged via recruiters over here so starting with seek.co.nz and contacting recruitment agencies would be my first step if I was you wanting to come here.
Your age will definitely count against you (same goes for me) so you'll have to leverage the experience/potential income angle. It's difficult, you generally need to get a job where the hirer can show that you are more qualified than any European candidate. But it is possible if you're good enough.
posted by shelleycat at 3:38 PM on May 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
They do it by getting jobs that are good enough that the company will sponsor them for the appropriate work visa. How that works exactly and which jobs qualify will vary to some degree by country, as will how easily the visa transfers over to the spouse. I'm planning on doing something like this this year (I'm a New Zealander) but I'll have a PhD and will be looking for an academic/research job, an area in which bringing in foreigners is somewhat common (and sometimes the visas are set up to make it easier). Given your level of experience and skills you should be able to find a qualifying job somewhere, assuming you target the right counties and take your time (my partner is a software engineer too so I've looked a little bit). You just need to do a lot of research. As an example, it's been a while since I looked but in The Netherlands a highly skilled migrant visa was dependant mainly on getting a job which paid enough money and there were jobs advertised for English speaking software developers (no idea how the recession has affected that though), so that would be a place to start investigating.
You would also likely find a qualifying job in NZ by the way, we're short of workers in your area and again hiring people from overseas is reasonably common in your field. IT jobs are generally arranged via recruiters over here so starting with seek.co.nz and contacting recruitment agencies would be my first step if I was you wanting to come here.
Your age will definitely count against you (same goes for me) so you'll have to leverage the experience/potential income angle. It's difficult, you generally need to get a job where the hirer can show that you are more qualified than any European candidate. But it is possible if you're good enough.
posted by shelleycat at 3:38 PM on May 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
I second the USA Jobs site. I've hoping to make a move next year, and this site has the most options for 40-something professionals. I've looked into UN Jobs and Dept of State jobs, but most of those are geared for ambitious but younger folks, or senior professionals with decades more experience.
Specifically it's the overseas military bases that seem to have the most opportunity. The big plus with them is that you don't need a high degree of fluency in the host-country language. You're also not required, for the most part, to live on base.
posted by kanewai at 3:38 PM on May 21, 2010
Specifically it's the overseas military bases that seem to have the most opportunity. The big plus with them is that you don't need a high degree of fluency in the host-country language. You're also not required, for the most part, to live on base.
posted by kanewai at 3:38 PM on May 21, 2010
Do either of you have ancestors from European countries? How many generations back? In some countries you can get citizenship even if it's been several generations since your ancestors left-- for example, I believe Italian citizenship is considered to be passed down to all children of Italian parents with no limit, with the only obstacle being if someone in the chain renounced their Italian citizenship (i.e. became a naturalized citizen) before their child was born.
posted by EmilyClimbs at 3:41 PM on May 21, 2010
posted by EmilyClimbs at 3:41 PM on May 21, 2010
A random idea that just popped into my head -- what about trading identities with someone who wants to live in the US? They can pretend to be you, and you can pretend to be them. Who will know?
posted by jrockway at 3:42 PM on May 21, 2010
posted by jrockway at 3:42 PM on May 21, 2010
A random idea that just popped into my head -- what about trading identities with someone who wants to live in the US? They can pretend to be you, and you can pretend to be them. Who will know?
Trading Espaces! Starring Eddy Murphy, Vanessa Williams, Antonio Banderas and Penelope Cruz. I'm laughing already.
Obtaining citizenship is not a priority, but it would be nice to at least get permanent residency and a passport (eventually).
You're getting on really thin ice here. For passports and foreign citizenship tend to go together, and absent marrying a foreign national, the US government isn't totally thrilled with people who voluntarily do this. They think maybe you don't want to be US citizens anymore.
And maybe you don't, but do be aware of the risk.
posted by IndigoJones at 4:25 PM on May 21, 2010
Trading Espaces! Starring Eddy Murphy, Vanessa Williams, Antonio Banderas and Penelope Cruz. I'm laughing already.
Obtaining citizenship is not a priority, but it would be nice to at least get permanent residency and a passport (eventually).
You're getting on really thin ice here. For passports and foreign citizenship tend to go together, and absent marrying a foreign national, the US government isn't totally thrilled with people who voluntarily do this. They think maybe you don't want to be US citizens anymore.
And maybe you don't, but do be aware of the risk.
posted by IndigoJones at 4:25 PM on May 21, 2010
I think it might be easier to find opportunities to work in Europe if you come over here and check them out, much like finding remote jobs anywhere. Your skills seem fairly unique and valuable. How about taking a month off and then going to software industry meetups in Europe? Setting up informational interviews? Networking with the expat alumni of your university and former companies? The few people I know in their 30s and above who have done this have done it through personal connections. You probably have some (or can make some), even if you don't know it yet.
posted by alternateuniverse at 4:25 PM on May 21, 2010
posted by alternateuniverse at 4:25 PM on May 21, 2010
For passports and foreign citizenship tend to go together, and absent marrying a foreign national, the US government isn't totally thrilled with people who voluntarily do this. They think maybe you don't want to be US citizens anymore.
This is false. You can only lose US citizenship by demonstrating an intent to lose US citizenship. This means specifically renouncing it to US officials, or a narrow range of expatriating acts that the US government says, by their nature, imply an intent to give up US citizenship. These include fighting in wars against the US and taking very high level political office in a foreign country.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:42 PM on May 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
This is false. You can only lose US citizenship by demonstrating an intent to lose US citizenship. This means specifically renouncing it to US officials, or a narrow range of expatriating acts that the US government says, by their nature, imply an intent to give up US citizenship. These include fighting in wars against the US and taking very high level political office in a foreign country.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:42 PM on May 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
Go for Canada. I emigrated in 1997 (from the US) and never looked back. Canada has a downright aggressive, by international standards, immigration policy. Better than the US, and indescribably better than, say, Germany, where "immigration" is, for persons not born there and without German parents, simply impossible. I just met an American who has lived in the glorious city of Hamburg for 40 -- FORTY -- years and he has as little chance of gleaning citizenship as he did in 1970. His kids, however, are US-German duals. even though Germany does not itself recognize dual citizenship (the US does, of course, so it can continue to tax its expats).
posted by ethnomethodologist at 5:04 PM on May 21, 2010
posted by ethnomethodologist at 5:04 PM on May 21, 2010
I think given your situation, the easiest thing will be to find a job in the country you're interested in and have them sponsor your work permit. Without knowing which country it will be, it's harder to get more specific than that. The thing working in your favor is your background in software development. I have several former colleagues who have worked overseas doing software development, and it seems like it's easier for the company in question to make the argument that this is essential work that can't be filled by a native candidate, which is often the criteria for getting a work visa. I'm a US citizen, and I have worked overseas twice for extended periods. Both times, the visa people tried to give me the brush off until it was clear that I already had a job offer in hand. Once I had my work permit, it was much easier to get a work permit for my wife; in your case, it may not even be necessary if your wife continues to work for a US firm. She may just need to obtain some form of extended residence permit.
Best of luck! Working and living in a foreign country was one of the most challenging and rewarding things I've done.
posted by ga$money at 5:49 PM on May 21, 2010
Best of luck! Working and living in a foreign country was one of the most challenging and rewarding things I've done.
posted by ga$money at 5:49 PM on May 21, 2010
Europe is hard. Sorry about that. If one of you happens to have an Irish grandparent, Ireland would be very happy to have both of you, but otherwise it is generally very difficult to end up in Europe without a sponsored work visa.
You should also be aware that (at least in the countries I am familiar with over here) for sponsored work visas, your visa will be tied to your job, so if you lose or hate the job or the company closes, everything gets really complicated really fast. Obviously if you're working for MS, Google or Facebook this is not a likely issue, and I believe that after two years your visa becomes employer-independent here anyway. (FB is hiring in Dublin, FWIW.)
I am pretty sure Australia and New Zealand are the easiest options in your situation, although they may not initially be that attractive to you because the language is English and the culture is not vastly different. But it's an option that does give you access to Malaysia, so that's nice.
But were I you, I think I'd be studying French as a serious endeavour and looking at Canada, specifically at living in Montreal or Quebec City. In terms of points, it's probably the most accessible option for you, and the French element gives you something really differentiated from living in the US.
posted by DarlingBri at 10:19 PM on May 21, 2010
You should also be aware that (at least in the countries I am familiar with over here) for sponsored work visas, your visa will be tied to your job, so if you lose or hate the job or the company closes, everything gets really complicated really fast. Obviously if you're working for MS, Google or Facebook this is not a likely issue, and I believe that after two years your visa becomes employer-independent here anyway. (FB is hiring in Dublin, FWIW.)
I am pretty sure Australia and New Zealand are the easiest options in your situation, although they may not initially be that attractive to you because the language is English and the culture is not vastly different. But it's an option that does give you access to Malaysia, so that's nice.
But were I you, I think I'd be studying French as a serious endeavour and looking at Canada, specifically at living in Montreal or Quebec City. In terms of points, it's probably the most accessible option for you, and the French element gives you something really differentiated from living in the US.
posted by DarlingBri at 10:19 PM on May 21, 2010
I'm an American who moved to Canada as a Québec-selected skilled worker, but I also lived in France teaching English on a year long permit for younger people.
You should start improving your language skills now before doing anything else. Especially if you're considering a non-English speaking country, you will open yourselves to more job postings and find better quality information on immigration. For example, when I was moving to Canada, I found the English language forums to be garbage. They were flooded with people coming from places other than the US that were having a much harder time moving to Canada than you would. There were not a lot of Americans on the site-- especially in the Québec section. The French language forums had more reliable information.
The majority of Americans I met when I lived in Europe were either teaching English (like me), retired there a long time ago (like my grandmother), or worked for a company in the US that transferred them there (like my college roommate who now lives in the UK). Also keep in mind that Canada will be a much easier adjustment for you coming from America than Europe. The job market in Europe is hard to break into if you don't have an IB (International Baccalaureate) and didn't go to school in Europe. Even if you get a work permit from a European country, you're likely to end up in the scenario of my American friends who moved there- having to renew your permit every year never knowing if it will be approved for at least 5 years before you can get a passport. If this kind of permit is not renewed or you both lose your jobs, you will be ordered to leave the country with very little notice.
Québec (through the Canada-Québec Accord) has a separate immigration department with more authority than the other provinces to select candidates. Their screening exam requires fewer points to pass, so theoretically even if you don't speak French you can get more points on the Québec test than on the Federal Skilled Worker test. After Québec approves you, the federal government can only deny you for criminal or medical reasons. The Federal Skilled Worker program just got much more difficult last year, so the provincial systems are the way to go. Québec and Alberta have the most open immigration systems in Canada right now, with Québec's being more established and much bigger. Québec's is the system the other provinces are interested in copying. Unlike the Federal Skilled Worker program and some of the other provincial programs, you do not need prearranged employment to move to Québec. Here is the link to a preliminary points test for the Québec-selected skilled worker program.
I work for a Canadian company in an English environment in Montréal. Don't count on finding a company to sponsor you (mine didn't), but I finally bit the bullet and applied and got accepted. It was really much easier than I expected it to be and, as an added bonus, I don't have to worry about being forced to leave the country if I lose my job (I've had that happen once when I tried to extend a temporary work permit- believe me, you don't want to go through that experience!). I have a bachelor's degree not in my field, an AS degree related to my field, and an AA degree. If you do find a company that will sponsor you, the process is much faster, but as American citizens with work experience and higher education it should take 9-10 months start to finish to get permanent residence through Québec without arranged employment if you do it right. NAFTA permits are available at the border if you're lucky enough that your education or job experience matches exactly one of the few job titles on the very short list. The process cost me roughly $1500 and took 364 days because I delayed the move for a relationship I was in at the time. It will cost a little more for you as two people.
After 3 years of residence in Canada, you can apply to become a citizen for like $150, keeping your American passport (Germany and other countries, for example, would make you relinquish it as part of the naturalization process). Regardless of what your intentions are, keep in mind that if you do plan on relinquishing your US passport, you have to pay taxes for the next 10 years on all of your assets due to some fairly recent legislation. Also, I can tell you that working for a Canadian company that has tons of US clients, being a US citizen gives me job security. When a client demands a US citizen for a project, I'm one of only two people in the company that they can work on it. My company wins contracts because they have me.
Another important thing to keep in mind: If you renounce your passport, they'll see that every time you come to the US when they swipe your new passport. You'll probably get put through additional screening and they could decide not to let you back into the country. You would be surprised what comes up on the screen when they swipe your passport in their computer. Keep all of this in mind if you have friends or family in the US and you ever plan to visit them again.
This last part doesn't apply to you, but I'm including it as maybe somebody will find it useful- it's actually easier to get work permits in Europe if you have a Canadian passport first. Agreements exist between Canada and a few Western European countries, like France and The Netherlands. Canadians 18-35 can get work visas of 1 year without arranged employment, so if you were to find a job, a company could sponsor you for a French carte de séjour (residence permit). See here for an example of this type of visa from the French embassy in Canada.
posted by globotomy at 12:21 AM on May 22, 2010
You should start improving your language skills now before doing anything else. Especially if you're considering a non-English speaking country, you will open yourselves to more job postings and find better quality information on immigration. For example, when I was moving to Canada, I found the English language forums to be garbage. They were flooded with people coming from places other than the US that were having a much harder time moving to Canada than you would. There were not a lot of Americans on the site-- especially in the Québec section. The French language forums had more reliable information.
The majority of Americans I met when I lived in Europe were either teaching English (like me), retired there a long time ago (like my grandmother), or worked for a company in the US that transferred them there (like my college roommate who now lives in the UK). Also keep in mind that Canada will be a much easier adjustment for you coming from America than Europe. The job market in Europe is hard to break into if you don't have an IB (International Baccalaureate) and didn't go to school in Europe. Even if you get a work permit from a European country, you're likely to end up in the scenario of my American friends who moved there- having to renew your permit every year never knowing if it will be approved for at least 5 years before you can get a passport. If this kind of permit is not renewed or you both lose your jobs, you will be ordered to leave the country with very little notice.
Québec (through the Canada-Québec Accord) has a separate immigration department with more authority than the other provinces to select candidates. Their screening exam requires fewer points to pass, so theoretically even if you don't speak French you can get more points on the Québec test than on the Federal Skilled Worker test. After Québec approves you, the federal government can only deny you for criminal or medical reasons. The Federal Skilled Worker program just got much more difficult last year, so the provincial systems are the way to go. Québec and Alberta have the most open immigration systems in Canada right now, with Québec's being more established and much bigger. Québec's is the system the other provinces are interested in copying. Unlike the Federal Skilled Worker program and some of the other provincial programs, you do not need prearranged employment to move to Québec. Here is the link to a preliminary points test for the Québec-selected skilled worker program.
I work for a Canadian company in an English environment in Montréal. Don't count on finding a company to sponsor you (mine didn't), but I finally bit the bullet and applied and got accepted. It was really much easier than I expected it to be and, as an added bonus, I don't have to worry about being forced to leave the country if I lose my job (I've had that happen once when I tried to extend a temporary work permit- believe me, you don't want to go through that experience!). I have a bachelor's degree not in my field, an AS degree related to my field, and an AA degree. If you do find a company that will sponsor you, the process is much faster, but as American citizens with work experience and higher education it should take 9-10 months start to finish to get permanent residence through Québec without arranged employment if you do it right. NAFTA permits are available at the border if you're lucky enough that your education or job experience matches exactly one of the few job titles on the very short list. The process cost me roughly $1500 and took 364 days because I delayed the move for a relationship I was in at the time. It will cost a little more for you as two people.
After 3 years of residence in Canada, you can apply to become a citizen for like $150, keeping your American passport (Germany and other countries, for example, would make you relinquish it as part of the naturalization process). Regardless of what your intentions are, keep in mind that if you do plan on relinquishing your US passport, you have to pay taxes for the next 10 years on all of your assets due to some fairly recent legislation. Also, I can tell you that working for a Canadian company that has tons of US clients, being a US citizen gives me job security. When a client demands a US citizen for a project, I'm one of only two people in the company that they can work on it. My company wins contracts because they have me.
Another important thing to keep in mind: If you renounce your passport, they'll see that every time you come to the US when they swipe your new passport. You'll probably get put through additional screening and they could decide not to let you back into the country. You would be surprised what comes up on the screen when they swipe your passport in their computer. Keep all of this in mind if you have friends or family in the US and you ever plan to visit them again.
This last part doesn't apply to you, but I'm including it as maybe somebody will find it useful- it's actually easier to get work permits in Europe if you have a Canadian passport first. Agreements exist between Canada and a few Western European countries, like France and The Netherlands. Canadians 18-35 can get work visas of 1 year without arranged employment, so if you were to find a job, a company could sponsor you for a French carte de séjour (residence permit). See here for an example of this type of visa from the French embassy in Canada.
posted by globotomy at 12:21 AM on May 22, 2010
I'm 26, and did what you call "pull it off" via getting transferred by my company.
From my exposure to other foreigners in Shanghai and Beijing, the main ways are those listed by globotomy: you either enter teach your native language in the foreign country for dirt pay, then gradually leap up to the field you expect or want after a year or two of having been a local, or your company sponsors you because you have skills to support/start a new branch where the locals don't have the company background knowledge and breeding.
It's tough to really get into a company by saying that you're bored and want to try a different country, plus learn the country's language from zero is doubly negative. This is especially the case if you have a family; as I understand HR is always iffy about who to move especially with a spouse and family as being away from friends and family is not only a factor for the employee but their family... and that can really drag the employee's stickability in the foreign country if the wife or kid is not happy and down to the point where they request to go back home. That's a pain in the ass for HR.
One way that I don't advocate but has been done was a coworker at his last promotion told HR that after 2 years he wanted to be transfered to X country for global experience, and after 2 years his wish was granted and he has since been in X country for 3 years now happily. You could always propose that to HR to see how they can set you up somewhere besides India or China....
As a last note, why are India and China not an interest to you? It's where all the growth is so obviously more positions, plus (I can only speak for China really) they're cosmopolitan, vibrant, and knowing/learning Mandarin's a huge asset nowadays and into the future. It's a great place to be versus a stagnant country.
posted by peachtree at 1:15 AM on May 22, 2010
From my exposure to other foreigners in Shanghai and Beijing, the main ways are those listed by globotomy: you either enter teach your native language in the foreign country for dirt pay, then gradually leap up to the field you expect or want after a year or two of having been a local, or your company sponsors you because you have skills to support/start a new branch where the locals don't have the company background knowledge and breeding.
It's tough to really get into a company by saying that you're bored and want to try a different country, plus learn the country's language from zero is doubly negative. This is especially the case if you have a family; as I understand HR is always iffy about who to move especially with a spouse and family as being away from friends and family is not only a factor for the employee but their family... and that can really drag the employee's stickability in the foreign country if the wife or kid is not happy and down to the point where they request to go back home. That's a pain in the ass for HR.
One way that I don't advocate but has been done was a coworker at his last promotion told HR that after 2 years he wanted to be transfered to X country for global experience, and after 2 years his wish was granted and he has since been in X country for 3 years now happily. You could always propose that to HR to see how they can set you up somewhere besides India or China....
As a last note, why are India and China not an interest to you? It's where all the growth is so obviously more positions, plus (I can only speak for China really) they're cosmopolitan, vibrant, and knowing/learning Mandarin's a huge asset nowadays and into the future. It's a great place to be versus a stagnant country.
posted by peachtree at 1:15 AM on May 22, 2010
I'm a New Zealander in the UK (late 30s). Got in here on Tier 1 of the Highly Skilled Migrant Programme, which is basically assessed on education and prior earnings. Depending on your qualifications, this might be a possibility for you. There's a points calculator on this site, which explains the processes. Tier 1 is not tied to a particular job, either.
Other Western European countries might be more difficult. There's massive unemployment, and you'd be competing with people who actually speak the language and understand the local culture.
posted by Infinite Jest at 1:32 AM on May 22, 2010
Other Western European countries might be more difficult. There's massive unemployment, and you'd be competing with people who actually speak the language and understand the local culture.
posted by Infinite Jest at 1:32 AM on May 22, 2010
It's totally doable - I'm a non-EU, also non-US, citizen who moved to the Netherlands, and I meet foreign couples (without EU passports) all the time. I'm always bemused by the AskMeFi responses which say, "Forget it, it can't be done." If that's the case, where do all the Americans here come from? They don't all have local partners or EU citizenship from their parents!
The first thing I would ask you is, which country do you want to move to? Although the EU allows for free movement of citizens, each individual country has different requirements for new residents, so your first step is to decide on a country. It's difficult to advise you any further without knowing that.
I felt exactly the same way as you do. I wanted to live in another country, learn another language and experience a different way of life. It certainly hasn't been easy, I've given up many career opportunities and experienced a lot of stress from dealing with the immigration authorities over the years (bureaucracy in any country is notorious for being s l o o o o o w and difficult), and there have been moments when I've wondered what the hell I must have been thinking to want to put myself through this when I come from a country that everybody here wants to move to. But in the end, it has been - and is - an amazing experience, which I don't regret for a moment.
In short: It IS possible, it IS hard, and especially in the first months/years there's a terrible uncertainty hanging over your head which you just don't experience when living in your own country. For me at least, though, it's been absolutely worthwhile. I suggest you start by looking at the immigration requirements for countries that are of interest to you, to begin narrowing down your choices. Good luck!
posted by different at 2:00 AM on May 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
The first thing I would ask you is, which country do you want to move to? Although the EU allows for free movement of citizens, each individual country has different requirements for new residents, so your first step is to decide on a country. It's difficult to advise you any further without knowing that.
I felt exactly the same way as you do. I wanted to live in another country, learn another language and experience a different way of life. It certainly hasn't been easy, I've given up many career opportunities and experienced a lot of stress from dealing with the immigration authorities over the years (bureaucracy in any country is notorious for being s l o o o o o w and difficult), and there have been moments when I've wondered what the hell I must have been thinking to want to put myself through this when I come from a country that everybody here wants to move to. But in the end, it has been - and is - an amazing experience, which I don't regret for a moment.
In short: It IS possible, it IS hard, and especially in the first months/years there's a terrible uncertainty hanging over your head which you just don't experience when living in your own country. For me at least, though, it's been absolutely worthwhile. I suggest you start by looking at the immigration requirements for countries that are of interest to you, to begin narrowing down your choices. Good luck!
posted by different at 2:00 AM on May 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
Go for Canada.
I dunno. If you're looking for a big cultural and social change from whatever you think monolithic "US" culture is, then Anglophone Canada might not be what you're after.
I mean, I really only spend time in the GTA and occasionally around Ottawa. But Toronto is pretty much Chicago with health care, funny-looking money, a different mix of ethnicities, and a shrunken subway. The social and cultural gap or just how someplace "feels" between Toronto and Chicago, or even more so Toronto and Buffalo*, is substantially smaller than the social and cultural differences between Chicago or Buffalo and Dallas or Atlanta.
*except that Toronto has, what's the word, jobs.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:21 AM on May 22, 2010
I dunno. If you're looking for a big cultural and social change from whatever you think monolithic "US" culture is, then Anglophone Canada might not be what you're after.
I mean, I really only spend time in the GTA and occasionally around Ottawa. But Toronto is pretty much Chicago with health care, funny-looking money, a different mix of ethnicities, and a shrunken subway. The social and cultural gap or just how someplace "feels" between Toronto and Chicago, or even more so Toronto and Buffalo*, is substantially smaller than the social and cultural differences between Chicago or Buffalo and Dallas or Atlanta.
*except that Toronto has, what's the word, jobs.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:21 AM on May 22, 2010
You can only lose US citizenship by demonstrating an intent to lose US citizenship. This means specifically renouncing it to US officials, or a narrow range of expatriating acts that the US government says, by their nature, imply an intent to give up US citizenship. These include fighting in wars against the US and taking very high level political office in a foreign country.
Question is, who determines intent, and will those acts remain constant? From the state department site:
"In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship. Intent can be shown by the person's statements or conduct."
My only point is that nabbing a second passport is not something to take as lightly as the questioner might have thought. Some countries assume that if you take up theirs you automatically are renouncing ours. Maybe you understood, maybe not, but if not, I can imagine Mr U.S. Immigration Man playing it safe and assuming you did and are now playing dumb. Mix that with, say, maybe a little IRS confusion - they hate would-be tax exiles - and all of a sudden you got yourself in a heap of trouble.
(Moreover, though the poster says kids are not on the agenda, others might and this too can have consequences - I know one guy who was, by virtue of place born and mixed parentage technically on the hook for three separate military services. Didn't happen, but there are situations out there and there are bureaucrats who can, shall we say, get bored with the routine of their jobs.)
posted by IndigoJones at 2:34 PM on May 22, 2010
Question is, who determines intent, and will those acts remain constant? From the state department site:
"In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship. Intent can be shown by the person's statements or conduct."
My only point is that nabbing a second passport is not something to take as lightly as the questioner might have thought. Some countries assume that if you take up theirs you automatically are renouncing ours. Maybe you understood, maybe not, but if not, I can imagine Mr U.S. Immigration Man playing it safe and assuming you did and are now playing dumb. Mix that with, say, maybe a little IRS confusion - they hate would-be tax exiles - and all of a sudden you got yourself in a heap of trouble.
(Moreover, though the poster says kids are not on the agenda, others might and this too can have consequences - I know one guy who was, by virtue of place born and mixed parentage technically on the hook for three separate military services. Didn't happen, but there are situations out there and there are bureaucrats who can, shall we say, get bored with the routine of their jobs.)
posted by IndigoJones at 2:34 PM on May 22, 2010
Some countries assume that if you take up theirs you automatically are renouncing ours.
You know, I'm sorry but this just seems like putting up hurdles where there needn't be any. This isn't a mysterious process requiring clandestine clearance from the State Department; it's something thousands of people do routinely every year without issue.
In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship.
If you don't intend to renounce your citizenship - which requires filling out a specific form - and the 2nd country in which you obtain a passport has no issue with dual citizenship, you're fine. "Use of the foreign passport does not endanger U.S. citizenship" means exactly what it says - and thank God for that, because zipping around Europe with an EU passport is so much less annoying than with a US one.
posted by DarlingBri at 3:19 PM on May 22, 2010
You know, I'm sorry but this just seems like putting up hurdles where there needn't be any. This isn't a mysterious process requiring clandestine clearance from the State Department; it's something thousands of people do routinely every year without issue.
In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship.
If you don't intend to renounce your citizenship - which requires filling out a specific form - and the 2nd country in which you obtain a passport has no issue with dual citizenship, you're fine. "Use of the foreign passport does not endanger U.S. citizenship" means exactly what it says - and thank God for that, because zipping around Europe with an EU passport is so much less annoying than with a US one.
posted by DarlingBri at 3:19 PM on May 22, 2010
(Oh, Jesus Christ.)
I'm putting up no hurdles, I in fact encourage him to go. But on the second citizenship question, I am pointing out realities and possibilities.
First of all, we are not talking about an Israeli right of returner nor a second generation Irish American (which is probably where you are getting you're thousands of people every year figure). We are talking about someone who has no blood, marriage, or even particularly strong emotional ties drawing to a specific country. Someone who is open to trying pretty much any first world country simply because he is "bored".
The questioner raised the second citizenship issue almost offhand, in a tone of sweetness and romantic and light - qualities that bureaucrats tend not to share. Read and digest the whole link. The State Department itself strongly advises against taking this action, even for those with an easy in. Buyer beware, at the very least (see, e.g., the military service issue I noted above.)
To their warnings, I added the observation that laws change and what is doable now might not be in five, ten, fifteen years. Maybe the State Department gets a little stickier about citizenship requirements, maybe they decide to interpret getting a second frivolous passport as a statement of intention. Maybe new country changes its mind, decides it doesn't want you after all. Don't think it could happen? Read more history. And re-read the portion I highlighted.
Still willing to chance a future that will never change? Consider the issues of the here and now. For people like our questioner who apply for a second citizenship or passport, the first question that naturally arises in our humorless bureaucrats (foreign and domestic) is going to be - Why? Why does person with no real connection to this country want this second passport? This second citizenship? Oh, right. "Bored".
The humorless bureaucrat without the sense of sweetness and romantic and light is likely to come up with a few other possibilities, possibilities that are suspicious, shady, and perhaps worthy of a watch list. Very real things, these lists, at least according to US consular officers I've known in the past. And shared. And maybe you are squeaky clean, but that doesn't necessarily mean you want to be on them. People read things into them.
Live overseas by all means, even retire there. I encourage it. But unless you have a really compelling reason, then you want to think long and hard about opening the second citizenship can of worms. Make sure the upsides are more than simply a slightly faster crossing of EU borders, and that there are no surprise downsides to bite you in the ass. We are moving into very strange times.
posted by IndigoJones at 5:52 PM on May 22, 2010
I'm putting up no hurdles, I in fact encourage him to go. But on the second citizenship question, I am pointing out realities and possibilities.
First of all, we are not talking about an Israeli right of returner nor a second generation Irish American (which is probably where you are getting you're thousands of people every year figure). We are talking about someone who has no blood, marriage, or even particularly strong emotional ties drawing to a specific country. Someone who is open to trying pretty much any first world country simply because he is "bored".
The questioner raised the second citizenship issue almost offhand, in a tone of sweetness and romantic and light - qualities that bureaucrats tend not to share. Read and digest the whole link. The State Department itself strongly advises against taking this action, even for those with an easy in. Buyer beware, at the very least (see, e.g., the military service issue I noted above.)
To their warnings, I added the observation that laws change and what is doable now might not be in five, ten, fifteen years. Maybe the State Department gets a little stickier about citizenship requirements, maybe they decide to interpret getting a second frivolous passport as a statement of intention. Maybe new country changes its mind, decides it doesn't want you after all. Don't think it could happen? Read more history. And re-read the portion I highlighted.
Still willing to chance a future that will never change? Consider the issues of the here and now. For people like our questioner who apply for a second citizenship or passport, the first question that naturally arises in our humorless bureaucrats (foreign and domestic) is going to be - Why? Why does person with no real connection to this country want this second passport? This second citizenship? Oh, right. "Bored".
The humorless bureaucrat without the sense of sweetness and romantic and light is likely to come up with a few other possibilities, possibilities that are suspicious, shady, and perhaps worthy of a watch list. Very real things, these lists, at least according to US consular officers I've known in the past. And shared. And maybe you are squeaky clean, but that doesn't necessarily mean you want to be on them. People read things into them.
Live overseas by all means, even retire there. I encourage it. But unless you have a really compelling reason, then you want to think long and hard about opening the second citizenship can of worms. Make sure the upsides are more than simply a slightly faster crossing of EU borders, and that there are no surprise downsides to bite you in the ass. We are moving into very strange times.
posted by IndigoJones at 5:52 PM on May 22, 2010
And I expect that it would be a lot easier for these two to get the permis de sejour, or permesso di soggiorno or Aufenthaltserlaubnis than the passport anyway.
posted by IndigoJones at 6:00 PM on May 22, 2010
posted by IndigoJones at 6:00 PM on May 22, 2010
From the proverbial horse's mouth:
(And on top of all that, if you currently owe any branch of the US Government so much as a dime on an old student loan, they won't accept your renunciation under any circumstances anyway.)
There are countries which do refuse you naturalisation if you won't renounce your US citizenship. Austria is one. The US doesn't, however, recognise any such renunciation not made in the manner described above. That is why the State Department has general advice against the idea. You are NOT, however, ever going to lose your US citizenship unless you explicitly decide to do so.
By all means consult real legal advice, though, instead of slightly nutty MeFite panicmongering. Or Not-Your-Lawyer reassurances like mine, for that matter.
posted by genghis at 6:42 PM on May 22, 2010
A person wishing to renounce his or her U.S. citizenship must voluntarily and with intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship:Which part of "no legal effect" are you not following?
1. appear in person before a U.S. consular or diplomatic officer,
2. in a foreign country (normally at a U.S. Embassy or Consulate); and
3. sign an oath of renunciation
Renunciations that do not meet the conditions described above have no legal effect.
(And on top of all that, if you currently owe any branch of the US Government so much as a dime on an old student loan, they won't accept your renunciation under any circumstances anyway.)
There are countries which do refuse you naturalisation if you won't renounce your US citizenship. Austria is one. The US doesn't, however, recognise any such renunciation not made in the manner described above. That is why the State Department has general advice against the idea. You are NOT, however, ever going to lose your US citizenship unless you explicitly decide to do so.
By all means consult real legal advice, though, instead of slightly nutty MeFite panicmongering. Or Not-Your-Lawyer reassurances like mine, for that matter.
posted by genghis at 6:42 PM on May 22, 2010
Myself, I went through the route where my company transfered me over. You have to be working at the company a couple of years so that the company can say they are bringing you over for your company specific skills. I'd worked for the company for 3 years before the transfer as did most of the folks (3 or 4) that did the same thing at my site. This is US -> Europe. I work for a fortune 500 company.
A family member went through something like the USA JOBS route. They do IT type stuff and they worked on a US Army base here in Europe for a few years. I got the feeling from things he said that that this is an easy-ish route.
Something new that I've heard on the radio is the Blue Card. "an approved EU-wide work permit allowing high-skilled non-EU citizens to work and live in any country within the European Union."
Good luck.
posted by Spumante at 11:08 AM on May 23, 2010
A family member went through something like the USA JOBS route. They do IT type stuff and they worked on a US Army base here in Europe for a few years. I got the feeling from things he said that that this is an easy-ish route.
Something new that I've heard on the radio is the Blue Card. "an approved EU-wide work permit allowing high-skilled non-EU citizens to work and live in any country within the European Union."
Good luck.
posted by Spumante at 11:08 AM on May 23, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by greekphilosophy at 1:51 PM on May 21, 2010 [1 favorite]