Recovery from debt in an unequal income relationship
March 3, 2010 12:04 PM Subscribe
Looking for success stories on financial recovery from debt acquired in an unequal income marriage with some abusive behaviors.…
This will be long, so I thank you for your time. I wanted to hear any stories from or about people who have survived living with a dry drunk and come out in one piece or a well-mended whole, while dealing with financial fallout from their behaviors.
My husband has been sober for 20+ years and we have been together for nearly a decade. We have two small children together that I stay at home with. I am in school full-time (online courses). We both attend 12-step meetings, he for NA/AA and me for Al-Anon, online only.
I think he still seems to be living as an addict because of his financial habits. He spends all our money almost as soon as we get it, usually on things for his hobbies. We always disagree about paying bills as he is of the opinion that we buy stuff and food first, and then pay utilities/debt/car insurance/rent with whatever’s left. When we met, I had no debt and lots of savings, while he was in the process of filing for bankruptcy. Since we married, he also lost our home to foreclosure (thank god my name wasn’t on the mortgage), got fired from his job and we have accrued over $110k in debt. In all fairness, over half of it is in my name (student/auto loans). However, ¾ of my student loan debt is extra cash taken out on Stafford loans to buy things or catch up on our bills, at his urging. Most of my credit card debt is medical bills and groceries. Although we have shared bank accounts, his primary income goes into an account that is only his, and I don't know how much he really makes.He files taxes for his business and I don't see the returns.
So we have this big money and communication issue, that’s obvious. I have been working with a therapist over the phone and my Al-anon sponsor on detaching and saying “no” to taking on more debt. But there isn’t much of anything I can do to make the debt go away. I can’t work right now because of our kids (1 and 4 years old). He is very, very insistent that no one besides family watch our kids until they are old enough to talk to us about everything that goes on. Unfortunately, I have no family nearby, and all of his family members are unsuitable for a variety of reasons. He is seldom and reluctantly interested in watching the kids by himself, so that leaves…..me! 24/7! The best I have been able to do for extra money is selling things I don’t need on eBay and putting that balance towards debt, but it’s very slow going. I am doing well in school but considering dropping out for a while. I am almost done with all online courses for my degree and can’t take traditional on-campus classes with the kids along. My fear is that I will do so and never find the time to go back, thus ending up in crappy retail/foodservice for $9/hr after my kids are big enough to go to school.
I have thought about ending our relationship, but he is a loving parent when he is around, and when we are at home alone together, is kind and attentive towards me. When we are around other people, he frequently puts me down to the point that his friends have called him out on it. He's uncomfortable with most of my female friendships and usually finds ways to interfere with me spending time with them. I hope that we could resolve those things through couples therapy, as I’d like to give that a try rather than ending our relationship. I know that some of those behaviors are abusive, but I hope that he can change. When I was younger, I vowed that I’d never end my marriage except for physical abuse or infidelity. Neither of those have happened, but “for better or worse” is killing me inside. I don't want to put my kids through a divorce, but the dynamic in our home is similar to the one I grew up in, and the long-term fallout has really screwed up my siblings and myself. Perhaps changing that dynamic would be better for their future. I want to believe that we can both change, that things can get better, that we can turn this around.
Even so, if things do start to get better after counseling, but his approach to finances doesn't change, I still don't see a very bright future for our lives. He has a number of chronic diseases which will require expensive treatment later down the road, and we don't have health insurance or pension/IRAs.
Has anyone ever heard of people pulling themselves out of financial situations this dire? Or experienced paying down debt/lifestyle reduction as a couple when one partner is not interested in doing so? Any success? Anon because some people we know read here, throwaway zd3383@gmail.com. Thank you.
This will be long, so I thank you for your time. I wanted to hear any stories from or about people who have survived living with a dry drunk and come out in one piece or a well-mended whole, while dealing with financial fallout from their behaviors.
My husband has been sober for 20+ years and we have been together for nearly a decade. We have two small children together that I stay at home with. I am in school full-time (online courses). We both attend 12-step meetings, he for NA/AA and me for Al-Anon, online only.
I think he still seems to be living as an addict because of his financial habits. He spends all our money almost as soon as we get it, usually on things for his hobbies. We always disagree about paying bills as he is of the opinion that we buy stuff and food first, and then pay utilities/debt/car insurance/rent with whatever’s left. When we met, I had no debt and lots of savings, while he was in the process of filing for bankruptcy. Since we married, he also lost our home to foreclosure (thank god my name wasn’t on the mortgage), got fired from his job and we have accrued over $110k in debt. In all fairness, over half of it is in my name (student/auto loans). However, ¾ of my student loan debt is extra cash taken out on Stafford loans to buy things or catch up on our bills, at his urging. Most of my credit card debt is medical bills and groceries. Although we have shared bank accounts, his primary income goes into an account that is only his, and I don't know how much he really makes.He files taxes for his business and I don't see the returns.
So we have this big money and communication issue, that’s obvious. I have been working with a therapist over the phone and my Al-anon sponsor on detaching and saying “no” to taking on more debt. But there isn’t much of anything I can do to make the debt go away. I can’t work right now because of our kids (1 and 4 years old). He is very, very insistent that no one besides family watch our kids until they are old enough to talk to us about everything that goes on. Unfortunately, I have no family nearby, and all of his family members are unsuitable for a variety of reasons. He is seldom and reluctantly interested in watching the kids by himself, so that leaves…..me! 24/7! The best I have been able to do for extra money is selling things I don’t need on eBay and putting that balance towards debt, but it’s very slow going. I am doing well in school but considering dropping out for a while. I am almost done with all online courses for my degree and can’t take traditional on-campus classes with the kids along. My fear is that I will do so and never find the time to go back, thus ending up in crappy retail/foodservice for $9/hr after my kids are big enough to go to school.
I have thought about ending our relationship, but he is a loving parent when he is around, and when we are at home alone together, is kind and attentive towards me. When we are around other people, he frequently puts me down to the point that his friends have called him out on it. He's uncomfortable with most of my female friendships and usually finds ways to interfere with me spending time with them. I hope that we could resolve those things through couples therapy, as I’d like to give that a try rather than ending our relationship. I know that some of those behaviors are abusive, but I hope that he can change. When I was younger, I vowed that I’d never end my marriage except for physical abuse or infidelity. Neither of those have happened, but “for better or worse” is killing me inside. I don't want to put my kids through a divorce, but the dynamic in our home is similar to the one I grew up in, and the long-term fallout has really screwed up my siblings and myself. Perhaps changing that dynamic would be better for their future. I want to believe that we can both change, that things can get better, that we can turn this around.
Even so, if things do start to get better after counseling, but his approach to finances doesn't change, I still don't see a very bright future for our lives. He has a number of chronic diseases which will require expensive treatment later down the road, and we don't have health insurance or pension/IRAs.
Has anyone ever heard of people pulling themselves out of financial situations this dire? Or experienced paying down debt/lifestyle reduction as a couple when one partner is not interested in doing so? Any success? Anon because some people we know read here, throwaway zd3383@gmail.com. Thank you.
Hit post too soon, sorry.
You should not feel guilty if you choose to divorce. If it helps, think of it this way: You would be saving not only yourself, but also your children, and raising them in a situation where they are not subjected to this kind of behavior on a daily basis. Do you have a clergy member or someone else you can talk to about this? (Presuming, of course, that this is an individual you trust, and one who believes in women's equality.)
Barbara Stanny has written a short piece on financial abuse, and includes a link to The Allstate Foundation's Click to Empower program, which offers resources for survivors' financial independence, including their Financial Empowerment Curriculum.
BlogHer also has a few blog posts that you might find helpful.
posted by runningwithscissors at 12:28 PM on March 3, 2010 [2 favorites]
You should not feel guilty if you choose to divorce. If it helps, think of it this way: You would be saving not only yourself, but also your children, and raising them in a situation where they are not subjected to this kind of behavior on a daily basis. Do you have a clergy member or someone else you can talk to about this? (Presuming, of course, that this is an individual you trust, and one who believes in women's equality.)
Barbara Stanny has written a short piece on financial abuse, and includes a link to The Allstate Foundation's Click to Empower program, which offers resources for survivors' financial independence, including their Financial Empowerment Curriculum.
BlogHer also has a few blog posts that you might find helpful.
posted by runningwithscissors at 12:28 PM on March 3, 2010 [2 favorites]
I'm so sorry for your situation. All I can contribute is if you're putting all your hopes and energies into what would happen if only he would change, you're putting all your hopes and energies in the wrong place. Great answers by runningwithscissors.
posted by Melismata at 12:33 PM on March 3, 2010
posted by Melismata at 12:33 PM on March 3, 2010
I' was only able to begin pull out of the financial stress my abusive ex put on me after ending the relationship.
I understand you want to think of your children, but it is killing you to be with this person, as you say yourself. Financial abuse is a real category of abuse, and I speak from personal experience when I say that emotional abuse was actually probably worse than the physical. I've talked to many abuse survivors that agree. You can say "if he hits me, I'll leave," and that seems straightforward enough (it's not always that straightforward, by the way), but the emotional has a way of tearing you down in a more insidious way. You've heard of the frog in the pot?
It's killing you inside and it will continue to do so. Most abusive individuals don't change (see, it wasn't the alcohol after all...). You and your kids will suffer. Do not feel guilty if you choose divorce.
Feel free to send me an email if you want.
posted by Pax at 1:12 PM on March 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
I understand you want to think of your children, but it is killing you to be with this person, as you say yourself. Financial abuse is a real category of abuse, and I speak from personal experience when I say that emotional abuse was actually probably worse than the physical. I've talked to many abuse survivors that agree. You can say "if he hits me, I'll leave," and that seems straightforward enough (it's not always that straightforward, by the way), but the emotional has a way of tearing you down in a more insidious way. You've heard of the frog in the pot?
It's killing you inside and it will continue to do so. Most abusive individuals don't change (see, it wasn't the alcohol after all...). You and your kids will suffer. Do not feel guilty if you choose divorce.
Feel free to send me an email if you want.
posted by Pax at 1:12 PM on March 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
I'm really sorry you're facing this. I'm the child of parents who were in a similar situation (dad spent money frivolously, mom tried to pay the bills).
I understand you made a commitment to yourself not to leave unless physical abuse or infidelity were involved, but I'm of the opinion that your husband is in fact abusing you and not being faithful to you, albeit in different circumstances than the traditional meanings attached to those terms. He has essentially harvested your good credit and loan opportunities to enable him to continue whatever spending issue he has. He has not used that harvesting to create a better environment for you or your children (e.g., maintaining a home, covering medical bills, etc.).
I hope you can see from your kids' perspective what they'll see when they start to become aware of what's going on: they'll see you stressed, they'll hear you arguing or disagreeing about money, they'll see a father for whom it's more important to buy hobby-related frivolities than to put a roof over their heads or pay for their doctor's visits. If they're like me as a kid, they'll pick up on this, "realize" they are a burden, and their thoughts may take the following trajectory: "If I hadn't gotten sick they wouldn't be fighting over my doctor bill. This is my fault." I recall picking up on these things at a very early age in my childhood, even if I didn't know what the right terminology was yet.
While you may feel this requires more time and dedication to rectify, from the outside in I can tell you that out here it's easy(ier) to see that you've endured a *decade* of codependency and financial exploitation. This is unlikely to change. This is who he is. He may very well be enrolled in various Al-Anon courses and the like, but he is opting not to make changes because the financial situation is working for him and you are helping him do that. I don't mean that as a slam on you. I understand what it's like to want something to work out and all the things you tell yourself because you want to make it better.
But your children are also in danger here of falling victim to your choices. As difficult as it is, I think you would benefit from extricating yourself from this situation, as would your children. I don't believe this is fixable. My parents are divorced now and guess what? My mom worked hard and retired early to Florida, debt free. My dad? He has absolutely no savings despite being in his 60s and gets advances on one of his many maxed credit cards to gamble. Nothing changed him. That's who he is.
Please take the advice above and reach out to some of the programs available to you who have extensive experience with this because putting family safety, comfort, and security second to hobbies is not healthy.
A secondary and HUGE issue is also his isolation of you from your friends and the not-so-subtle public put downs. This is classic abuser behavior and a professional can likely explain this better than I can. But the short version is that this is done to keep you dependent on him and to keep you from having any kind of self esteem that would challenge his decisions. He's keeping you away from people who care about you and could help you. Do you want your children to view you in that role? Do you want your kids to think it's ok not to have reliable friends? Do you want your kids not to be able to ask for help? Do you want your kids to think it's ok to be talked down to like that?
Again, I mean no harm. But I grew up with this guy and those were the thoughts that flowed through my head as a kid. As an adult, I'm angry at my parents: at my dad for being such an inconsiderate ass and at my mom for not finding the nerve to stand up and leave his sorry ass sooner. Her life got infinitely better after she moved on although it wasn't easy for her to do.
Best of luck to you and your children.
posted by December at 1:35 PM on March 3, 2010 [8 favorites]
I understand you made a commitment to yourself not to leave unless physical abuse or infidelity were involved, but I'm of the opinion that your husband is in fact abusing you and not being faithful to you, albeit in different circumstances than the traditional meanings attached to those terms. He has essentially harvested your good credit and loan opportunities to enable him to continue whatever spending issue he has. He has not used that harvesting to create a better environment for you or your children (e.g., maintaining a home, covering medical bills, etc.).
I hope you can see from your kids' perspective what they'll see when they start to become aware of what's going on: they'll see you stressed, they'll hear you arguing or disagreeing about money, they'll see a father for whom it's more important to buy hobby-related frivolities than to put a roof over their heads or pay for their doctor's visits. If they're like me as a kid, they'll pick up on this, "realize" they are a burden, and their thoughts may take the following trajectory: "If I hadn't gotten sick they wouldn't be fighting over my doctor bill. This is my fault." I recall picking up on these things at a very early age in my childhood, even if I didn't know what the right terminology was yet.
While you may feel this requires more time and dedication to rectify, from the outside in I can tell you that out here it's easy(ier) to see that you've endured a *decade* of codependency and financial exploitation. This is unlikely to change. This is who he is. He may very well be enrolled in various Al-Anon courses and the like, but he is opting not to make changes because the financial situation is working for him and you are helping him do that. I don't mean that as a slam on you. I understand what it's like to want something to work out and all the things you tell yourself because you want to make it better.
But your children are also in danger here of falling victim to your choices. As difficult as it is, I think you would benefit from extricating yourself from this situation, as would your children. I don't believe this is fixable. My parents are divorced now and guess what? My mom worked hard and retired early to Florida, debt free. My dad? He has absolutely no savings despite being in his 60s and gets advances on one of his many maxed credit cards to gamble. Nothing changed him. That's who he is.
Please take the advice above and reach out to some of the programs available to you who have extensive experience with this because putting family safety, comfort, and security second to hobbies is not healthy.
A secondary and HUGE issue is also his isolation of you from your friends and the not-so-subtle public put downs. This is classic abuser behavior and a professional can likely explain this better than I can. But the short version is that this is done to keep you dependent on him and to keep you from having any kind of self esteem that would challenge his decisions. He's keeping you away from people who care about you and could help you. Do you want your children to view you in that role? Do you want your kids to think it's ok not to have reliable friends? Do you want your kids not to be able to ask for help? Do you want your kids to think it's ok to be talked down to like that?
Again, I mean no harm. But I grew up with this guy and those were the thoughts that flowed through my head as a kid. As an adult, I'm angry at my parents: at my dad for being such an inconsiderate ass and at my mom for not finding the nerve to stand up and leave his sorry ass sooner. Her life got infinitely better after she moved on although it wasn't easy for her to do.
Best of luck to you and your children.
posted by December at 1:35 PM on March 3, 2010 [8 favorites]
I'm glad you've had responses from people pointing you towards places which can help you with the abusive situation you're in. You sound like you've figured out that you want things to change and are working on how to make that change. It sounds like the relationship is the underlying cause and the money issues are the symptom.
But you asked about the symptom - so I'd say you might try posting a similar question to the Get Rich Slowly weblog forum, or just look at previous posts on there. There are a bunch of people on there that might have some ideas. And in any case when you do find yourself in a time and place where you can start to knock down your debt, they would be able to help you.
Good luck!
posted by mulkey at 7:27 PM on March 3, 2010
But you asked about the symptom - so I'd say you might try posting a similar question to the Get Rich Slowly weblog forum, or just look at previous posts on there. There are a bunch of people on there that might have some ideas. And in any case when you do find yourself in a time and place where you can start to knock down your debt, they would be able to help you.
Good luck!
posted by mulkey at 7:27 PM on March 3, 2010
I'm so sorry you are in this situation. You sound like a very good person and you certainly don't deserve the way you are being treated by your spouse (no one deserves that).
You seem to be minimizing the abuse. He might not be violent, but the situation you are in sounds very abusive to me. These things struck me the most:
-He appears to be in complete control over the money in the relationship. You have been together for nearly a decade and you have no idea how much he makes and how much you have in the bank? In healthy relationships spouses share control of the money and make mutual decisions in how to spend that money
-He does not want you to work – It seems to me like he is using the idea that the kids could potentially be abused as a reason to keep you at home. He is tapping into your worst fears to keep you dependent on him for everything. You say that you "can't" work now. Is that him making the decision or you? Again, the decision of one parent staying home with the kids should be mutually agreed upon.
-He puts you down in front of your friends. This should never happen. It sounds like he does this to further isolate you and control you. Also, the fact that he keeps you from seeing you friends is a gigantic red flag. He is trying to isolate you from people who could help you. He knows that if you talked to your friends they would be concerned and try to open your eyes to the abuse.
-He acts attentive just enough to keep you from thinking his a total jerk. Even abusive people are sometimes nice, so they can hold onto their power. He knows he can domineer you without resorting to physical abuse. He knows you would leave him if he became physically abusive. Believing that you can only divorce someone who cheated or physically abused you, gives him the ability to treat you however he pleases as long as he doesn't do one of those two specific things.
I think you can recover financially, but not with him. I don't think he is going to change his behavior. You've been together for almost a decade and he would have changed if he was going to change. I think you can have a happy life and recover financially if you end it with him.
I know someone who was with a man who was abusive in the same way that your husband appears to be. She waited until the kids were out of college before she finally divorced him. She couldn't be happier. She has a nice little condo and makes enough for her to live comfortably. When she finally left her husband, her kids asked her why she stayed so long. She thought she was staying for them, but they secretly wanted her to leave him for years and were happy when she finally did.
posted by parakeetdog at 8:23 PM on March 3, 2010 [2 favorites]
You seem to be minimizing the abuse. He might not be violent, but the situation you are in sounds very abusive to me. These things struck me the most:
-He appears to be in complete control over the money in the relationship. You have been together for nearly a decade and you have no idea how much he makes and how much you have in the bank? In healthy relationships spouses share control of the money and make mutual decisions in how to spend that money
-He does not want you to work – It seems to me like he is using the idea that the kids could potentially be abused as a reason to keep you at home. He is tapping into your worst fears to keep you dependent on him for everything. You say that you "can't" work now. Is that him making the decision or you? Again, the decision of one parent staying home with the kids should be mutually agreed upon.
-He puts you down in front of your friends. This should never happen. It sounds like he does this to further isolate you and control you. Also, the fact that he keeps you from seeing you friends is a gigantic red flag. He is trying to isolate you from people who could help you. He knows that if you talked to your friends they would be concerned and try to open your eyes to the abuse.
-He acts attentive just enough to keep you from thinking his a total jerk. Even abusive people are sometimes nice, so they can hold onto their power. He knows he can domineer you without resorting to physical abuse. He knows you would leave him if he became physically abusive. Believing that you can only divorce someone who cheated or physically abused you, gives him the ability to treat you however he pleases as long as he doesn't do one of those two specific things.
I think you can recover financially, but not with him. I don't think he is going to change his behavior. You've been together for almost a decade and he would have changed if he was going to change. I think you can have a happy life and recover financially if you end it with him.
I know someone who was with a man who was abusive in the same way that your husband appears to be. She waited until the kids were out of college before she finally divorced him. She couldn't be happier. She has a nice little condo and makes enough for her to live comfortably. When she finally left her husband, her kids asked her why she stayed so long. She thought she was staying for them, but they secretly wanted her to leave him for years and were happy when she finally did.
posted by parakeetdog at 8:23 PM on March 3, 2010 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
I know you said he doesn't like you talking with friends, and that's not unusual in these kinds of situations. Friends, however, are a great resource for help and encouragement, and perhaps you might be able to safely start transferring belongings here and there to a friend's place, if she is amenable.
posted by runningwithscissors at 12:16 PM on March 3, 2010 [1 favorite]