Moving to Philadelphia
February 25, 2010 8:42 AM Subscribe
Where to move to in the Philadelphia area? Details inside.
While I've visited a couple of times, I'm not very familiar with the ins and outs of the Philadelphia area. I'm looking for a nice two bedroom apt. Something less than $1200. The commute has to be less than 25 minutes to the University City Septa stop.
I was looking through places on Craigslist and a unit that looked nice in what I thought was supposed to be a nice area (Fairmount) ended up being 2 blocks from a Penitentiary. It would help me a lot in my search if I got a good idea of where to look.
I'm moving from out of state this Summer and looking to avoid bugs and crime. Been there, done that already. Considerations - parking for 2 cars (can't get rid of either).
Since I don't know the location of many areas by name, links to Google maps would be very helpful when talking about neighborhoods or regions.
While I've visited a couple of times, I'm not very familiar with the ins and outs of the Philadelphia area. I'm looking for a nice two bedroom apt. Something less than $1200. The commute has to be less than 25 minutes to the University City Septa stop.
I was looking through places on Craigslist and a unit that looked nice in what I thought was supposed to be a nice area (Fairmount) ended up being 2 blocks from a Penitentiary. It would help me a lot in my search if I got a good idea of where to look.
I'm moving from out of state this Summer and looking to avoid bugs and crime. Been there, done that already. Considerations - parking for 2 cars (can't get rid of either).
Since I don't know the location of many areas by name, links to Google maps would be very helpful when talking about neighborhoods or regions.
West Philly -- preferably Boulder, or Laramie, but also University City.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 9:00 AM on February 25, 2010
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 9:00 AM on February 25, 2010
If you're interested/willing to live in Philly, why exactly are both cars non-negotiable? I know few enough Philly residents with cars, and no multi-car households, because inevitably at least one of a couple has a carless commute.
posted by Tomorrowful at 9:02 AM on February 25, 2010
posted by Tomorrowful at 9:02 AM on February 25, 2010
I was looking through places on Craigslist and a unit that looked nice in what I thought was supposed to be a nice area (Fairmount) ended up being 2 blocks from a Penitentiary. It would help me a lot in my search if I got a good idea of where to look.
That's really unintentionally hilarious. ESP is an historic landmark with daytime tours and an annual haunted house.
Fairmount is a great neighborhood; I live there myself, also just a few blocks from ESP. You can find a 2br for $1200, slightly spendier south of Fairmount and less spendy north of. Stay south of Poplar, west of Corinthian (above Fairmount) and 17th (below Fairmount), and north of Spring Garden for the nicest area.
You also may want to look at Graduate Hospital, generally Lombard to Christian, 17th to 23rd; it's popular with a lot of Penn employees and grad students, has some good bars and restaurants, and is a bit cheaper than Fairmount and Center City.
You don't indicate anything about yourself and what you want, so it's hard to narrow it down. Are you a younger hippie? Middle-aged doctor? Etc. Do you like going out to clubs/bars/restaurants? How important is proximity to those things? Let us know that and we'll be able to help more.
posted by The Michael The at 9:04 AM on February 25, 2010 [4 favorites]
That's really unintentionally hilarious. ESP is an historic landmark with daytime tours and an annual haunted house.
Fairmount is a great neighborhood; I live there myself, also just a few blocks from ESP. You can find a 2br for $1200, slightly spendier south of Fairmount and less spendy north of. Stay south of Poplar, west of Corinthian (above Fairmount) and 17th (below Fairmount), and north of Spring Garden for the nicest area.
You also may want to look at Graduate Hospital, generally Lombard to Christian, 17th to 23rd; it's popular with a lot of Penn employees and grad students, has some good bars and restaurants, and is a bit cheaper than Fairmount and Center City.
You don't indicate anything about yourself and what you want, so it's hard to narrow it down. Are you a younger hippie? Middle-aged doctor? Etc. Do you like going out to clubs/bars/restaurants? How important is proximity to those things? Let us know that and we'll be able to help more.
posted by The Michael The at 9:04 AM on February 25, 2010 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks for the info Shesthefastest - I didn't know it had closed and just happened to pull up this street view. Great to know.
As far as what I want - a 2 bedroom, someplace with a short commute to the area around the University City Septa stop, no bugs, roaches, rats, and trying to avoid crime. I'm not really worried about going to clubs or being near to a theater or anything. I want someplace where 2 cars can park, and I don't want a run down mess, something in a dangerous area or some place that is sketchy.
Carwise, I wish I could get rid of one of the cars, but alas I cannot.
posted by furious at 9:12 AM on February 25, 2010
As far as what I want - a 2 bedroom, someplace with a short commute to the area around the University City Septa stop, no bugs, roaches, rats, and trying to avoid crime. I'm not really worried about going to clubs or being near to a theater or anything. I want someplace where 2 cars can park, and I don't want a run down mess, something in a dangerous area or some place that is sketchy.
Carwise, I wish I could get rid of one of the cars, but alas I cannot.
posted by furious at 9:12 AM on February 25, 2010
Also, furious, I'd be glad to discuss this in great detail (I love talking about this stuff), so if you have specific questions, feel free to pm me.
posted by The Michael The at 9:13 AM on February 25, 2010
posted by The Michael The at 9:13 AM on February 25, 2010
I lived in East Falls a few years. Really, really love the area -- it's a pretty great mix of Fairmount Park (i.e. there are trees, and you can see *deer* running around the area at night) and the city (i.e. you can still get mugged if you aren't paying attention).
In all seriousness, East Falls is a damn sight safer than most other places in Philly (hands down beats Center City, West Philly, North Philly, South Philly).
posted by wrok at 9:16 AM on February 25, 2010
In all seriousness, East Falls is a damn sight safer than most other places in Philly (hands down beats Center City, West Philly, North Philly, South Philly).
posted by wrok at 9:16 AM on February 25, 2010
Response by poster: Thanks The Michael The. I'll be in touch as I get more of the details hammered out and after I look through all the places that get referenced in the replies. The ESP thing is pretty funny. Thank god it's closed. I had a Monopoly City Streets moment.
posted by furious at 9:17 AM on February 25, 2010
posted by furious at 9:17 AM on February 25, 2010
That's a good list of what you don't want, but what sort of vibe are you looking for?
posted by The Michael The at 9:26 AM on February 25, 2010
posted by The Michael The at 9:26 AM on February 25, 2010
ESP is more than closed - it's actually a tourist attraction, and one of my favorite places to take out-of-towners.
I'll try to help out as well with area suggestions, but as The Michael The notes, there are still a lot of places to consider and we could use some starting points - though I suspect living in University City itself is probably your best bet. There really aren't a lot of areas of the city you'd end up looking at with a $1200/2br budget that would have much of a danger of rats/bugs/roaches.
posted by Tomorrowful at 9:29 AM on February 25, 2010
I'll try to help out as well with area suggestions, but as The Michael The notes, there are still a lot of places to consider and we could use some starting points - though I suspect living in University City itself is probably your best bet. There really aren't a lot of areas of the city you'd end up looking at with a $1200/2br budget that would have much of a danger of rats/bugs/roaches.
posted by Tomorrowful at 9:29 AM on February 25, 2010
I'm assuming you're working at Penn. If cars are a must, and you are a newcomer, the only places that I would consider are the South Jersey suburbs along the PATCO line, and the PA suburbs to the west.
Yes, South Jersey is unpopular, but there are some very nice places to live that can rival some of the best neighborhoods in Philly. Yes, you can move to South Philly (Hard to park, neighborhoods differ from block to block, many parts are not beginner-level-philly), West Philly (.. well, same reasons as south philly, plus expensive), Manayunk (awful hills, awful parking, definate possibility of awfully annoying, irresponsible post-college people), East Falls (somewhat less so than Manayunk). Parking is possible in all these areas, but do you really want to be cruising around the block looking for a spot? What's the point?
On your budget, you're really not going to find a heck of a lot around CC, Spring Garden/Art Museum, etc with parking. You are going to find yourself in a transitional area. Not bad, not good, just something to keep in mind. If you're used to city living, Philly has lots of places where you can live in the margin of hot real estate markets, suck up the benefits of that while still living relatively cheaply.
I know nothing of the western suburbs because I hate being That Guy who has to take a $40 taxi ride back because he missed the last train.
I commute from Collingswood station on the PATCO speedline, transfer to the el at 8th and market or the trolley at 13th and market, and my commute door to door from Collingswood to my office at Penn ranges from 30 to 45 minutes on a slow day. The PATCO runs 24 hours a day straight into center city. Any other commute from any other suburbs will not run 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, so if you value having the freedom to move around without being held to an evening curfew, you need to be near center city, or along the PATCO line. I had a two bedroom apartment ~2 minutes walking to the station, and we paid $1100ish/mo heat included with room to park two cars in a driveway, a big backyard, local bars, basic grocery shopping, etc. My apartment was somewhat expensive, I think. Stations to look around are Collingswood (dense suburb, row houses/duplexes, 'downtown', lots of BYO restaurants, 'gay-friendly'), Westmont (older, slightly more spread out), and Haddonfield (much older, much more spread out, lots of money). Any closer, and you're in Camden which is an interesting place, but once again probably not a place for a newcomer. Any further, and you're out in the boonies, and there's not much of interest out there.
Yes, I do sit on two trains for a while. Most of the time of my commute is spent waiting for one train or another to come. If I was slick, I'd plan my commute so I hit the trains right. I read the paper or play on my phone, and enjoy the quiet time coming in. I bask in the knowledge that I get many of the benefits of living downtown, but I do not have to put up with the pains-in-the-neck that come with city living. The tradeoff from living in Center City is that while some of my friends may walk home from dinner, I have a 15 minute train ride and a short walk to get back home.
posted by Geckwoistmeinauto at 9:36 AM on February 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
Yes, South Jersey is unpopular, but there are some very nice places to live that can rival some of the best neighborhoods in Philly. Yes, you can move to South Philly (Hard to park, neighborhoods differ from block to block, many parts are not beginner-level-philly), West Philly (.. well, same reasons as south philly, plus expensive), Manayunk (awful hills, awful parking, definate possibility of awfully annoying, irresponsible post-college people), East Falls (somewhat less so than Manayunk). Parking is possible in all these areas, but do you really want to be cruising around the block looking for a spot? What's the point?
On your budget, you're really not going to find a heck of a lot around CC, Spring Garden/Art Museum, etc with parking. You are going to find yourself in a transitional area. Not bad, not good, just something to keep in mind. If you're used to city living, Philly has lots of places where you can live in the margin of hot real estate markets, suck up the benefits of that while still living relatively cheaply.
I know nothing of the western suburbs because I hate being That Guy who has to take a $40 taxi ride back because he missed the last train.
I commute from Collingswood station on the PATCO speedline, transfer to the el at 8th and market or the trolley at 13th and market, and my commute door to door from Collingswood to my office at Penn ranges from 30 to 45 minutes on a slow day. The PATCO runs 24 hours a day straight into center city. Any other commute from any other suburbs will not run 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, so if you value having the freedom to move around without being held to an evening curfew, you need to be near center city, or along the PATCO line. I had a two bedroom apartment ~2 minutes walking to the station, and we paid $1100ish/mo heat included with room to park two cars in a driveway, a big backyard, local bars, basic grocery shopping, etc. My apartment was somewhat expensive, I think. Stations to look around are Collingswood (dense suburb, row houses/duplexes, 'downtown', lots of BYO restaurants, 'gay-friendly'), Westmont (older, slightly more spread out), and Haddonfield (much older, much more spread out, lots of money). Any closer, and you're in Camden which is an interesting place, but once again probably not a place for a newcomer. Any further, and you're out in the boonies, and there's not much of interest out there.
Yes, I do sit on two trains for a while. Most of the time of my commute is spent waiting for one train or another to come. If I was slick, I'd plan my commute so I hit the trains right. I read the paper or play on my phone, and enjoy the quiet time coming in. I bask in the knowledge that I get many of the benefits of living downtown, but I do not have to put up with the pains-in-the-neck that come with city living. The tradeoff from living in Center City is that while some of my friends may walk home from dinner, I have a 15 minute train ride and a short walk to get back home.
posted by Geckwoistmeinauto at 9:36 AM on February 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
Here is some reference material on Philly neighborhoods, so you can at least figure out where the different areas are. Otherwise, I am way out in the Philly burbs so I can't give specific advice, unless you want to live in the country on a gorgeous horse farm in an old stone building or something. Which I get the impression you do not.
posted by bunnycup at 9:44 AM on February 25, 2010
posted by bunnycup at 9:44 AM on February 25, 2010
Not that we're not helpful, but if you haven't yet checked out the Philadelphia Speaks forum, you might find it useful.
posted by chihiro at 9:58 AM on February 25, 2010
posted by chihiro at 9:58 AM on February 25, 2010
If you live in University City and work at Penn you absolutely do not need a car for that commute. I live in University City and when it snows around here, a week later there are lots of people that still have not bothered to dig out their car because they don't use it. A lot of people walk; if not that general route is very well-served by public transit.
(Sure, a lot of the people who don't dig out quickly are students -- but the point I'm trying to make is that you don't need the car *for the commute*, even if you need it for other things in your life.)
If you want to live further out and take the train in, the Regional Rail system has its hub at 30th Street Station; *all* the commuter trains serve this station, as opposed to only the fraction that serve University City Station. Depending on where you're trying to get to in the end the two stations may be equally convenient.
Finally, one last question: when you say "the area around the University City Septa stop" do you mean somewhere west of the Schuylkill? If by some chance you mean somewhere *east* of the Schuylkill, you should know that the South Street Bridge doesn't exist; they tore it down and are building a new one. This also makes the Graduate Hospital area less appealing than it would otherwise be.
posted by madcaptenor at 10:04 AM on February 25, 2010
(Sure, a lot of the people who don't dig out quickly are students -- but the point I'm trying to make is that you don't need the car *for the commute*, even if you need it for other things in your life.)
If you want to live further out and take the train in, the Regional Rail system has its hub at 30th Street Station; *all* the commuter trains serve this station, as opposed to only the fraction that serve University City Station. Depending on where you're trying to get to in the end the two stations may be equally convenient.
Finally, one last question: when you say "the area around the University City Septa stop" do you mean somewhere west of the Schuylkill? If by some chance you mean somewhere *east* of the Schuylkill, you should know that the South Street Bridge doesn't exist; they tore it down and are building a new one. This also makes the Graduate Hospital area less appealing than it would otherwise be.
posted by madcaptenor at 10:04 AM on February 25, 2010
I used to work on the UPenn campuss (at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia), and lived in the 'burbs outside Philly itself. Because of how SEPTA organizes its train lines, several trains stop at Univeristy City that also go all the way out to the suburbs. If you're willing to push that commute to the limit, look at Glenside, near Arcadia University - I had an apartment that was walking distance to the train stop in Glenside, which dropped me at the U. City stop without needing to change lines.
Because you're looking for space for two cars, you may need to go further out to get the parking needed. If so, look at a SEPTA map and choose a location near a line that stops at your destination. Glenside / Jenkintown was especially convenient because multiple lines went through them.
posted by GJSchaller at 10:26 AM on February 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
Because you're looking for space for two cars, you may need to go further out to get the parking needed. If so, look at a SEPTA map and choose a location near a line that stops at your destination. Glenside / Jenkintown was especially convenient because multiple lines went through them.
posted by GJSchaller at 10:26 AM on February 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
First, sell one of your cars. Then the other. Move to West Philly.
University City, West Philadelphia, Drexel, and UPenn might all be useful Craigslist search terms for finding housing in this neighborhood.
Why on Earth would you choose to commute when you can rent your own Victorian mansion? Driving and parking anywhere in Philly, especially around University City, is absolute hell. Traffic doesn't move. This is why so many people bike.
You use the word nice throughout your original post. And that you are looking to avoid bugs and crime. You'll have a miserable time living in Philly if you're constantly afraid. Philadelphia is a major city with a relatively high crime rate. South Jersey is not Philadelphia. Most people hardly recognize Fairmount as part of Philly, and it's in no way convenient. You're going to have to rethink your criteria before you can begin to consider making a home in Philly.
Good luck.
posted by xndr at 10:52 AM on February 25, 2010
University City, West Philadelphia, Drexel, and UPenn might all be useful Craigslist search terms for finding housing in this neighborhood.
Why on Earth would you choose to commute when you can rent your own Victorian mansion? Driving and parking anywhere in Philly, especially around University City, is absolute hell. Traffic doesn't move. This is why so many people bike.
You use the word nice throughout your original post. And that you are looking to avoid bugs and crime. You'll have a miserable time living in Philly if you're constantly afraid. Philadelphia is a major city with a relatively high crime rate. South Jersey is not Philadelphia. Most people hardly recognize Fairmount as part of Philly, and it's in no way convenient. You're going to have to rethink your criteria before you can begin to consider making a home in Philly.
Good luck.
posted by xndr at 10:52 AM on February 25, 2010
Most people hardly recognize Fairmount as part of Philly, and it's in no way convenient.
This is not true. Fairmount is great and close to Center City and would be a good option for you because there is (some) on-street parking and it feels very safe and family-friendly. Be aware that you will NOT be able to afford any place with parking for two cars anywhere in Philadelphia proper. You probably won't even be able to afford a place with one parking spot. You CAN live without a car in Philadelphia. I live here and haven't owned a car in 8 years.
In addition to Fairmount and University City, you should also look at East Falls and Manayunk, both of which are very residential and have on-street parking and convenient commuter train stations.
Philadelphia is really small and has a lot of wonderful neighborhoods. You should really come and walk around for a weekend before you make up your mind.
posted by jrichards at 11:20 AM on February 25, 2010
This is not true. Fairmount is great and close to Center City and would be a good option for you because there is (some) on-street parking and it feels very safe and family-friendly. Be aware that you will NOT be able to afford any place with parking for two cars anywhere in Philadelphia proper. You probably won't even be able to afford a place with one parking spot. You CAN live without a car in Philadelphia. I live here and haven't owned a car in 8 years.
In addition to Fairmount and University City, you should also look at East Falls and Manayunk, both of which are very residential and have on-street parking and convenient commuter train stations.
Philadelphia is really small and has a lot of wonderful neighborhoods. You should really come and walk around for a weekend before you make up your mind.
posted by jrichards at 11:20 AM on February 25, 2010
Don't feel too bad, furious. When I was first moving to Philly I did the exact same thing. My wife and I had actually arranged to go view an apartment on Brown Street between 22nd and Corinthian. Then we looked it up on Google Maps, saw that it was directly across the road from a penitentiary and canceled the viewing. Turns out that those are some of the nicest houses in Philadelphia.
Now, I live in the Spring Garden neighbourhood and one of my favorite things about it is that my daily jog takes me on a circuit around ESP.
posted by 256 at 11:40 AM on February 25, 2010
Now, I live in the Spring Garden neighbourhood and one of my favorite things about it is that my daily jog takes me on a circuit around ESP.
posted by 256 at 11:40 AM on February 25, 2010
Most people hardly recognize Fairmount as part of Philly, and it's in no way convenient. You're going to have to rethink your criteria before you can begin to consider making a home in Philly.
Wait, what? Fairmount is practically center city.
posted by 256 at 11:44 AM on February 25, 2010
Wait, what? Fairmount is practically center city.
posted by 256 at 11:44 AM on February 25, 2010
I go to school in East Falls and live on the border in Germantown (which can be very seedy at times). Northwest Philly has many different neighborhoods ranging from suburban to urban and is probably your best bet.
A forum which can help you is PhiladelphiaSpeaks, particularity since Philly is a block-by-block city where one block could be great while the next could be shady.
posted by daninnj at 11:44 AM on February 25, 2010
A forum which can help you is PhiladelphiaSpeaks, particularity since Philly is a block-by-block city where one block could be great while the next could be shady.
posted by daninnj at 11:44 AM on February 25, 2010
Fairmount is really close to center city. Eastern State Penitentiary is around 1.4 miles from City Hall if you walk. Ignore xndr.
posted by useyourmachinegunarm at 2:17 PM on February 25, 2010
posted by useyourmachinegunarm at 2:17 PM on February 25, 2010
Neighborhoods which might spin your propeller:
- Fairmount/Art Museum. My former, much-beloved 'hood. While the north side of Fairmount gets a little dicey, the neighborhood proper is fantastic... relatively quiet, all the little businesses you need, awesome tiny nightlife scene and a 20-minute walk to Center City (where, as they say, The Action Is). AAAAAND, it's immediately adjacent to Fairmount Park, a vast wonderland of wholesome outdoor recreation. Five blocks west of my apartment, I could hike and chase squirrels.
- Center City. Prime shopping, working and partying area. Main advantage is that it's at the heart of everything... no real character in and of itself. CC has EVERY! FUCKING! THING!, for better or worse... chain restaurants and big-box stores, cute little boutiques, bars and nightclubs aplenty, professional services, etc.
- Rittenhouse Square. a-fucking-dorable neighborhood right next to Center City... this is the area surrounding Rittenhouse Square, a cute little park in the center of the city. Real estate is older, has more character and is WAY more expensive than elsewhere. Definitely the "tony" section of town, but also very beautiful and pretty safe (as in, you will NOT be getting a cap popped in your ass).
- Bella Vista. This neighborhood is right next to South Street, the hub of counterculture activity in the city (well... it used to be. It now has a Blockbuster and a Gap, for god's sake). It is more crunchy-granola than other 'hoods. Lots of young families, organic produce, neighborhood events, parks, etc.
- Queen Village/Old City. The old, historic section of town. The "cooler" counterpart to Center City... tons of little shops, restaurants and nightlife, but no Applebee's and K-Mart. Hipster central. Very historical feel... lots of cobblestone streets, unique architecture, guys dressed like Ben Franklin trying to entice you into horse-drawn carriage rides. You can see a cool band, eat at a good restaurant and buy both designer pharmaceuticals and organic arugula within a two-block radius. It's worth tolerating the popped collars and cooler-than-thou attitudes.
- Graduate Hospital. This is an up-'n-coming neighborhood north of Center City. Quiet, with lots o' brownstones and cute little close-knit streets. Not as many businesses or commercial ventures, but within walking distance of everything. Used to be dicey, but has been rehabilitated to the point where cap-popping is less likely but real estate is still damned affordable.
Areas to avoid:
- South Philly. All the disadvantages of living in the 'burbs (have to drive everywhere, no social scene, obnoxious neighbors in wifebeaters screaming at one another while they wash their Camaros) with all the disadvantages of living in the city (higher prices, congestion, higher likelihood of cap-popping). I know of people who live here and love it. I will never be one of them.
- The Northeast. See above. This is a VAST, blue-collar-ish area, you guessed it, northeast of the city. Some interesting micro-cultures (Little Russia, Little Korea, etc), but generally a shithole.
- University City (West Philly). This one's a toss-up. A few of my friends live here and love it... cheaper real estate, decent culture, not as crowded and frantic as the main part of town. However, it's also far enough removed from the main part of town that you feel kind of isolated; it's more of a pain in the ass to meet friends spontaneously. Also VERY UNSAFE in certain areas... brand-new, uber-luxe condos a block away from crack dens. Probably the cap-poppingest area which is NOT a ghetto proper.
In synopsis:
It is filthy, it is busy, it is corrupt, it has an inferiority complex, public transit is expensive and erratic, the local foods are greasy and frightening, the LOCALS are greasy and frightening, local sports fans once heckled Santa at a December football game... but damn it, it has its charms. I love Philly.
posted by julthumbscrew at 3:17 PM on February 25, 2010 [2 favorites]
- Fairmount/Art Museum. My former, much-beloved 'hood. While the north side of Fairmount gets a little dicey, the neighborhood proper is fantastic... relatively quiet, all the little businesses you need, awesome tiny nightlife scene and a 20-minute walk to Center City (where, as they say, The Action Is). AAAAAND, it's immediately adjacent to Fairmount Park, a vast wonderland of wholesome outdoor recreation. Five blocks west of my apartment, I could hike and chase squirrels.
- Center City. Prime shopping, working and partying area. Main advantage is that it's at the heart of everything... no real character in and of itself. CC has EVERY! FUCKING! THING!, for better or worse... chain restaurants and big-box stores, cute little boutiques, bars and nightclubs aplenty, professional services, etc.
- Rittenhouse Square. a-fucking-dorable neighborhood right next to Center City... this is the area surrounding Rittenhouse Square, a cute little park in the center of the city. Real estate is older, has more character and is WAY more expensive than elsewhere. Definitely the "tony" section of town, but also very beautiful and pretty safe (as in, you will NOT be getting a cap popped in your ass).
- Bella Vista. This neighborhood is right next to South Street, the hub of counterculture activity in the city (well... it used to be. It now has a Blockbuster and a Gap, for god's sake). It is more crunchy-granola than other 'hoods. Lots of young families, organic produce, neighborhood events, parks, etc.
- Queen Village/Old City. The old, historic section of town. The "cooler" counterpart to Center City... tons of little shops, restaurants and nightlife, but no Applebee's and K-Mart. Hipster central. Very historical feel... lots of cobblestone streets, unique architecture, guys dressed like Ben Franklin trying to entice you into horse-drawn carriage rides. You can see a cool band, eat at a good restaurant and buy both designer pharmaceuticals and organic arugula within a two-block radius. It's worth tolerating the popped collars and cooler-than-thou attitudes.
- Graduate Hospital. This is an up-'n-coming neighborhood north of Center City. Quiet, with lots o' brownstones and cute little close-knit streets. Not as many businesses or commercial ventures, but within walking distance of everything. Used to be dicey, but has been rehabilitated to the point where cap-popping is less likely but real estate is still damned affordable.
Areas to avoid:
- South Philly. All the disadvantages of living in the 'burbs (have to drive everywhere, no social scene, obnoxious neighbors in wifebeaters screaming at one another while they wash their Camaros) with all the disadvantages of living in the city (higher prices, congestion, higher likelihood of cap-popping). I know of people who live here and love it. I will never be one of them.
- The Northeast. See above. This is a VAST, blue-collar-ish area, you guessed it, northeast of the city. Some interesting micro-cultures (Little Russia, Little Korea, etc), but generally a shithole.
- University City (West Philly). This one's a toss-up. A few of my friends live here and love it... cheaper real estate, decent culture, not as crowded and frantic as the main part of town. However, it's also far enough removed from the main part of town that you feel kind of isolated; it's more of a pain in the ass to meet friends spontaneously. Also VERY UNSAFE in certain areas... brand-new, uber-luxe condos a block away from crack dens. Probably the cap-poppingest area which is NOT a ghetto proper.
In synopsis:
It is filthy, it is busy, it is corrupt, it has an inferiority complex, public transit is expensive and erratic, the local foods are greasy and frightening, the LOCALS are greasy and frightening, local sports fans once heckled Santa at a December football game... but damn it, it has its charms. I love Philly.
posted by julthumbscrew at 3:17 PM on February 25, 2010 [2 favorites]
The commute has to be less than 25 minutes to the University City Septa stop.
The only way to ensure a commute to University City in under 25 minutes is to live in University City or the immediate vicinity. From elsewhere, you'd have to bike through the traffic.
As I say: the traffic is reliably worse than you could possibly imagine. Far worse than anyone's willing to acknowledge here. These are the city residents who incomprehensibly insist on driving. You can avoid a world of pain by just selling those cars.
256 Fairmount is practically center city.
uymga Fairmount is really close to center city...around 1.4 miles from City Hall if you walk. Ignore xndr.
Lovely. Not sure what this has to do with furious's prerequisite. Or why you'd refer to the proximity to Center City; Philly is a very small town and Center City is far from the most desirable of locales.
Seconding the inferiority complex julthumbscrew mentions. And the rest of it. Most honest post yet.
posted by xndr at 5:44 PM on February 25, 2010
The only way to ensure a commute to University City in under 25 minutes is to live in University City or the immediate vicinity. From elsewhere, you'd have to bike through the traffic.
As I say: the traffic is reliably worse than you could possibly imagine. Far worse than anyone's willing to acknowledge here. These are the city residents who incomprehensibly insist on driving. You can avoid a world of pain by just selling those cars.
256 Fairmount is practically center city.
uymga Fairmount is really close to center city...around 1.4 miles from City Hall if you walk. Ignore xndr.
Lovely. Not sure what this has to do with furious's prerequisite. Or why you'd refer to the proximity to Center City; Philly is a very small town and Center City is far from the most desirable of locales.
Seconding the inferiority complex julthumbscrew mentions. And the rest of it. Most honest post yet.
posted by xndr at 5:44 PM on February 25, 2010
I'm following up now that I'm not at work.
First, here's data on homicides through 2009 and violent crime in 2007 via the Philadelphia Inquirer, the local rag. Despite Philly's rep as a murder capitol, it's really quite safe in the neighborhoods mentioned above. Of 305 murders in 2009, there were four between Christian St. on the south, Spring Garden St. on the north, and the two rivers plus Fairmount, University City, and the good part of West Philly (Spruce to Springfield, out to 50th St). Tiny number. Moreover, if you're not involved in the drug trade and not getting involved in domestic disputes, you're definitely good to go.
Second, I feel like Jul Thumbscrew above gave some misinformation about the neighborhoods. So, let's go through these again:
Fairmount - like she described. Huge population of bike racers and runners; very athletic. Price: 4 out of 5.
Center City - actually encompasses everything from the Schuylkill to the Delaware, Arch to South, including the neighborhoods of: Logan, Rittenhouse, Fitler, Washington Square West, Chinatown, Society Hill, and Old City. There is no "Center City" to speak of other than as a container for neighborhoods.
South Philly - encompasses lots of neighborhoods you don't want to visit, but also Queen Village, Bella Vista, East Passyunk, and Graduate Hospital (which actually south of Center City, directly below Rittenhouse). Essentially anything south of South St., bounded by rivers.
Rittenhouse - New Money. Very yuppie, particularly around Rittenhouse Square Park. West of Broad to 22nd St, Chestnut to South St. Architecture isn't particularly old compared to east of Broad St, and lots of 60's-70's-80's condos. Little parking, 5 out of 5 expensive. This is where Arthur Kade hangs out.
Bella Vista - Old Italian families mixed with the first wave of South Philly pioneers, who moved there as grad students and are now young families. Broad to 8th, South to Washington. Not really counterculture... that's West Philly. Price: 3 out of 5
Queen Village - like Bella Vista but eastward, 8th to Front, South to Washington. very nice and affordable but further from Penn. Price: 3.5 out of 5. Divided from Society Hill by South Street, which is both a street and a blight (head shops and 18-year-old freshmen).
Society Hill - Very nice and genteel, east of 7th St from Lombard to Walnut. Old money, colonial-era homes. Price: 5 out of 5.
Old City - north of Society Hill, Walnut to Spring Garden, west to 4th St or so. Bridge and tunnel douchbags go clubbing on 2nd St Walnut to Market, but the rest of the neighborhood is populated by boutiques and galleries and hosts First Friday gallery crawls. Price: 5 out of 5. Awesome to hang out, but expect >$2000 for a 2-br.
Graduate Hospital - I covered that above. It's actually south of Center City.
Washington Square West - South to Walnut, 7th to Broad. Fairly diverse, middle of the road "city." Also contains the Gayborhood. I lived here for four years. Good area, but parking is again an issue. Price: 3 to 4 out of 5.
Northern Liberties - Spring Garden to Girard Ave, Front to 5th or so. Warehouses and artist colonies, parking will be better but far from Penn. Price 2-3 out of 5. Beyond NoLibs is Fishtown and the great Northeast. Avoid.
University City - Lived there for two years. Lots of students (undergrad to 42nd or so, grad to 50th), hippies, and professors. Very granola, collective, radical. Cheaper, though, 2-3 out of 5 (more expensive closer to Penn).
Passyunk East - the new "it" neighborhood in South Philly. Small, tight community, very hip, with a ton of great restaurants and shops. Getting expensive, but still pretty affordable - 2-3 out of 5. You do not have to drive everywhere, but you're also at the mercy of SEPTA more than most areas.
Beyond the city - does that exist? East Falls, Mount Airy, Glenside and Germantown are all north of the city and nice (mostly) and close on the R trains. The further east you go, though, the closer to North Philly you get, and crime goes up.
posted by The Michael The at 5:46 PM on February 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
First, here's data on homicides through 2009 and violent crime in 2007 via the Philadelphia Inquirer, the local rag. Despite Philly's rep as a murder capitol, it's really quite safe in the neighborhoods mentioned above. Of 305 murders in 2009, there were four between Christian St. on the south, Spring Garden St. on the north, and the two rivers plus Fairmount, University City, and the good part of West Philly (Spruce to Springfield, out to 50th St). Tiny number. Moreover, if you're not involved in the drug trade and not getting involved in domestic disputes, you're definitely good to go.
Second, I feel like Jul Thumbscrew above gave some misinformation about the neighborhoods. So, let's go through these again:
Fairmount - like she described. Huge population of bike racers and runners; very athletic. Price: 4 out of 5.
Center City - actually encompasses everything from the Schuylkill to the Delaware, Arch to South, including the neighborhoods of: Logan, Rittenhouse, Fitler, Washington Square West, Chinatown, Society Hill, and Old City. There is no "Center City" to speak of other than as a container for neighborhoods.
South Philly - encompasses lots of neighborhoods you don't want to visit, but also Queen Village, Bella Vista, East Passyunk, and Graduate Hospital (which actually south of Center City, directly below Rittenhouse). Essentially anything south of South St., bounded by rivers.
Rittenhouse - New Money. Very yuppie, particularly around Rittenhouse Square Park. West of Broad to 22nd St, Chestnut to South St. Architecture isn't particularly old compared to east of Broad St, and lots of 60's-70's-80's condos. Little parking, 5 out of 5 expensive. This is where Arthur Kade hangs out.
Bella Vista - Old Italian families mixed with the first wave of South Philly pioneers, who moved there as grad students and are now young families. Broad to 8th, South to Washington. Not really counterculture... that's West Philly. Price: 3 out of 5
Queen Village - like Bella Vista but eastward, 8th to Front, South to Washington. very nice and affordable but further from Penn. Price: 3.5 out of 5. Divided from Society Hill by South Street, which is both a street and a blight (head shops and 18-year-old freshmen).
Society Hill - Very nice and genteel, east of 7th St from Lombard to Walnut. Old money, colonial-era homes. Price: 5 out of 5.
Old City - north of Society Hill, Walnut to Spring Garden, west to 4th St or so. Bridge and tunnel douchbags go clubbing on 2nd St Walnut to Market, but the rest of the neighborhood is populated by boutiques and galleries and hosts First Friday gallery crawls. Price: 5 out of 5. Awesome to hang out, but expect >$2000 for a 2-br.
Graduate Hospital - I covered that above. It's actually south of Center City.
Washington Square West - South to Walnut, 7th to Broad. Fairly diverse, middle of the road "city." Also contains the Gayborhood. I lived here for four years. Good area, but parking is again an issue. Price: 3 to 4 out of 5.
Northern Liberties - Spring Garden to Girard Ave, Front to 5th or so. Warehouses and artist colonies, parking will be better but far from Penn. Price 2-3 out of 5. Beyond NoLibs is Fishtown and the great Northeast. Avoid.
University City - Lived there for two years. Lots of students (undergrad to 42nd or so, grad to 50th), hippies, and professors. Very granola, collective, radical. Cheaper, though, 2-3 out of 5 (more expensive closer to Penn).
Passyunk East - the new "it" neighborhood in South Philly. Small, tight community, very hip, with a ton of great restaurants and shops. Getting expensive, but still pretty affordable - 2-3 out of 5. You do not have to drive everywhere, but you're also at the mercy of SEPTA more than most areas.
Beyond the city - does that exist? East Falls, Mount Airy, Glenside and Germantown are all north of the city and nice (mostly) and close on the R trains. The further east you go, though, the closer to North Philly you get, and crime goes up.
posted by The Michael The at 5:46 PM on February 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
Oh, my commute to University City from Fairmount is usually about 25 minutes via bus and trolley. From Washington West, it was about the same. You do not have to live in U. City for a 25 minute commute.
posted by The Michael The at 5:49 PM on February 25, 2010
posted by The Michael The at 5:49 PM on February 25, 2010
I live in and love Philadelphia, but I can't add to the nuts and bolts information because it is all well-said. I was in a position 16 years ago where I lived in the Philly suburbs and asked myself if I might be a city person. First, I moved to Old City to a loft and got my city legs. (You won't find a loft now for $1200 probably.) With the tourist and club life of that part of town I never felt concerned for my safety but the noise was another issue. When it came time to buy a place, the cost dictated Bella Vista and my husband and I have been fantastically happy ever since. What would have scared me in the past doesn't even merit notice now. To know a city, you have to live there. You might not get everything right the first neighborhood you pick. But, Philadelphia is a great city and it would be a shame to move to the suburbs. And ditto, shed a car.
posted by Prayless at 6:22 PM on February 25, 2010
posted by Prayless at 6:22 PM on February 25, 2010
The Michael The - thanks for clearing up the neighborhoods issue - I was tossing my comment off while being dive-bombed by a preschooler and screwed up the geography. Totally my bad.
I don't think anyone thus far has mentioned the regional rail/subway/trolley/bus conundrum - if you wish to get into/out of the center of town from midnight 'til 5 AM, you'd better live near a subway or one of trolleys or bus routes that run all night. There are neighborhoods which are very 24/7 friendly, and there are ones which will guarantee huge taxi bills. Just FYI.
posted by julthumbscrew at 7:39 PM on February 25, 2010
I don't think anyone thus far has mentioned the regional rail/subway/trolley/bus conundrum - if you wish to get into/out of the center of town from midnight 'til 5 AM, you'd better live near a subway or one of trolleys or bus routes that run all night. There are neighborhoods which are very 24/7 friendly, and there are ones which will guarantee huge taxi bills. Just FYI.
posted by julthumbscrew at 7:39 PM on February 25, 2010
I agree with The Michael The. I live in Manayunk (a really nice area, but don't move here with your cars because it's impossible to park here) and I take the train to University City. The commute is 18 minutes from my train stop to 30th street station.
If you're driving, sure, it's going to take longer. You've gotten great advice so far, and I'm nthng Fairmount/Art Museum and East Falls as good places for what you're looking for. Fishtown is also a nice, up-and-coming area (although it's really "trendy"). Just remember to avoid Strawberry Mansion.
posted by audacity at 8:20 PM on February 25, 2010
If you're driving, sure, it's going to take longer. You've gotten great advice so far, and I'm nthng Fairmount/Art Museum and East Falls as good places for what you're looking for. Fishtown is also a nice, up-and-coming area (although it's really "trendy"). Just remember to avoid Strawberry Mansion.
posted by audacity at 8:20 PM on February 25, 2010
Beyond the city - does that exist? East Falls, Mount Airy, Glenside and Germantown are all north of the city and nice (mostly) and close on the R trains. The further east you go, though, the closer to North Philly you get, and crime goes up.
These places (except for Glenside) are all still "in" the city, as is Manyunk. We all have Philadelphia addresses.
posted by audacity at 8:24 PM on February 25, 2010
These places (except for Glenside) are all still "in" the city, as is Manyunk. We all have Philadelphia addresses.
posted by audacity at 8:24 PM on February 25, 2010
These places (except for Glenside) are all still "in" the city, as is Manyunk. We all have Philadelphia addresses.
True, and I glossed over that fact. But you also have yards (yes, yes, another gross simplification), and I was using "the city" to mean the truly urban neighborhoods listed above. Really, we're glad to have you.
posted by The Michael The at 4:15 AM on February 26, 2010
True, and I glossed over that fact. But you also have yards (yes, yes, another gross simplification), and I was using "the city" to mean the truly urban neighborhoods listed above. Really, we're glad to have you.
posted by The Michael The at 4:15 AM on February 26, 2010
Second, I feel like Jul Thumbscrew above gave some misinformation about the neighborhoods...
TMT's list of sweeping generalizations is incredibly misleading, not to mention outdated.
Visit Philadelphia and you'll find enormous contrast within each of these so-called neighborhoods from one block to the next.
In Philly, it's not nearly as cut-and-dry as these self-purported experts would have you believe.
posted by xndr at 10:56 AM on February 26, 2010
TMT's list of sweeping generalizations is incredibly misleading, not to mention outdated.
Visit Philadelphia and you'll find enormous contrast within each of these so-called neighborhoods from one block to the next.
In Philly, it's not nearly as cut-and-dry as these self-purported experts would have you believe.
posted by xndr at 10:56 AM on February 26, 2010
All of these neighborhood descriptions are making me a little puzzled. (Rittenhouse Square is new money and not a lot of old buildings??)
But a lot of this is kind of irrelevant to the actual question anyway, which stated priorities pretty clearly:
25 min from University City
Parking
$1200 for 2-bedroom.
New-to-Philly-friendly, esp. regarding crime.
This is a pretty tall order.
All Center City neighborhoods are either too expensive, lack available parking, or both. You're probably priced out of Queen Village, too.
I wouldn't consider Graduate Hospital to be a beginner-level neighborhood, unless you're on the very northern side of it. So 20th and South, sure, 22th and Christian, maybe not so much. I don't think you're going to like Fishtown, either, it's too close to some sketchy areas.
Can you provide more information about your parking expectations? People's perceptions of parking can vary quite a bit. I have a car and rarely have to park more than 1 block from my house in South Philly (what the realtors now call Passyunk Square.) How good or bad the parking will appear to be also depends on how much you intend to drive. If you are going to get in your cars every day and it is going to infuriate you to have to drive around the block and parallel park, I don't know that there's anywhere in the city proper that you're going to be happy.
My advice is to find a place which is as convenient as possible, even if you have to pay more, then re-assess your priorities regarding space, parking, commuting, and cost when it's time to renew the lease.
posted by desuetude at 12:00 PM on February 26, 2010
But a lot of this is kind of irrelevant to the actual question anyway, which stated priorities pretty clearly:
25 min from University City
Parking
$1200 for 2-bedroom.
New-to-Philly-friendly, esp. regarding crime.
This is a pretty tall order.
All Center City neighborhoods are either too expensive, lack available parking, or both. You're probably priced out of Queen Village, too.
I wouldn't consider Graduate Hospital to be a beginner-level neighborhood, unless you're on the very northern side of it. So 20th and South, sure, 22th and Christian, maybe not so much. I don't think you're going to like Fishtown, either, it's too close to some sketchy areas.
Can you provide more information about your parking expectations? People's perceptions of parking can vary quite a bit. I have a car and rarely have to park more than 1 block from my house in South Philly (what the realtors now call Passyunk Square.) How good or bad the parking will appear to be also depends on how much you intend to drive. If you are going to get in your cars every day and it is going to infuriate you to have to drive around the block and parallel park, I don't know that there's anywhere in the city proper that you're going to be happy.
My advice is to find a place which is as convenient as possible, even if you have to pay more, then re-assess your priorities regarding space, parking, commuting, and cost when it's time to renew the lease.
posted by desuetude at 12:00 PM on February 26, 2010
True, and I glossed over that fact. But you also have yards (yes, yes, another gross simplification), and I was using "the city" to mean the truly urban neighborhoods listed above. Really, we're glad to have you.
Oh, the people with YARDS. We don't have those in Manayunk, either, but yeah, I've seen those yards a couple of streets over in Roxborough. And houses that don't touch each other! It's CRAZY.
posted by audacity at 4:13 PM on February 26, 2010
Oh, the people with YARDS. We don't have those in Manayunk, either, but yeah, I've seen those yards a couple of streets over in Roxborough. And houses that don't touch each other! It's CRAZY.
posted by audacity at 4:13 PM on February 26, 2010
Just to clarify something: you said you want your new place to be 25 minutes from a University City SEPTA station. I assumed because of that you'd be taking public transportation in your commute there, which would make it a lot easier to get to University City in under 25 minutes, from a lot of different neighborhoods. Other people seem to think you want a drive that's less than 25 minutes, which is a taller order.
Could you verify whether you'll be driving or taking public transportation to University City, and which SEPTA station you mean?
posted by audacity at 4:17 PM on February 26, 2010
Could you verify whether you'll be driving or taking public transportation to University City, and which SEPTA station you mean?
posted by audacity at 4:17 PM on February 26, 2010
True, and I glossed over that fact. But you also have yards (yes, yes, another gross simplification), and I was using "the city" to mean the truly urban neighborhoods listed above.
Yeah, uh, please don't do this. To characterize Manayunk and Germantown and the like as "not really urban" is really weirdly dismissive. All of "those" areas include public transportation, city wage taxes, and mixed commercial-residential streets, including some bars, grocery stores, nightlife. And actually, are probably the places where the OP should be looking, if the parking thing is really the big issue.
(I have a yard in South Philly. It's paved, but we still call it a yard, see.)
posted by desuetude at 6:31 PM on February 26, 2010
Yeah, uh, please don't do this. To characterize Manayunk and Germantown and the like as "not really urban" is really weirdly dismissive. All of "those" areas include public transportation, city wage taxes, and mixed commercial-residential streets, including some bars, grocery stores, nightlife. And actually, are probably the places where the OP should be looking, if the parking thing is really the big issue.
(I have a yard in South Philly. It's paved, but we still call it a yard, see.)
posted by desuetude at 6:31 PM on February 26, 2010
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