canine rivalry
February 18, 2010 9:14 AM Subscribe
We have a small old dog (SOD) and a larger new young dog (LNYD), and the small old dog isn’t happy about it. How do we go about teaching them to leave eachother alone?
We have had Poupoune, (SOD) a spayed terrier/chihuahua cross, for about 12–13 years. During most of that time we also had a mild-mannered chihuahua who Poupoune barely tolerated. Having another dog to supervise gave her something to do and lowered her stress when she was younger, so having two dogs was still a good thing even though they were never friends. He was ill during the last year of his life and during this time Poupoune became more aggressive towards him. We put him down last August.
Last weekend we adopted Plume (LNYD), a small collie cross. LNYD weighs 33 lbs compared to SOD’S 11 lbs, and is about a year old compared to SOD’S 14 years. LNYD is not yet spayed but that will be arranged in the next few weeks. She has seen the vet and she is neither pregnant nor in heat.
SOD is objecting violently to the intruder into the household. While expected, it’s stressful for all of us. What can we do to make the transition to détente easier and quicker?
- SOD eats kibble ad libitum. We fixed up a closet for her that she can access and LNYD cannot, and she has food, water and a blanket there.
- LNYD is fed kibble twice a day but SOD will push her out of the way and eat her food. So I feed LNYD in the morning when SOD is still asleep, and in the evening when SOD is playing her nightly hide-and-seek game looking for hidden treats in the next room.
- SOD sleeps in our bed and LNYD sleeps on the floor in our room. SOD can work herself into a hysterical lather of snarling over LNYD’s presence in the room. She will eventually calm down when I order her to shut up and crawl under the covers where she can’t see LNYD. But then the snarling starts all over again in the morning when LNYD gets up and starts moving around.
- I want to give LNYD a chew toy to keep her busy in the evening when I’m reading in bed, but SOD’s resource-guarding behaviour makes this difficult.
- They go outside together and behave quite nicely in the yard.
- We take them on walks together (on behaviourist principles, SOD only goes on walks with LNYD, but sometimes LNYD will go on a walk without SOD). They walk together nicely.
- If I’m on the computer at home, SOD will lie on her blanket at my feet, under my desk. When LNYD approaches to lie beside me, SOD forbids/ is distressed by this. (When it’s just SOD, under my desk is a warm sheltered cave. When LNYD approaches, she realizes she’s cornered.)
- Alternatively, LNYD approaches with a play bow. When SOD responds with a snarl, LNYD bounces, bows lower and barks. SOD then has a hysterical hyena fit. At these times I put LNYD in a time-out for ten minutes or so: she needs to recognize that playing with SOD is just one of those Ain’t Gonna Happen things.
So. I don’t want SOD’s last two years to be miserable and I want to be able to enjoy both dogs. I’m sure that there are a bunch of things I’m doing completely wrong, and I do know that some of this will work itself out anyway — after all, it’s only been a week — but how will I know when it’s gone beyond “oh, they’ll work it out”? Ten years ago when I got the chihuahua I carefully respected all the advice to leave them to work things out together, but SOD’s aggression toward him just escalated until I realized she would end up killing him. So I told her to stop, and she did. She wasn’t thrilled about it, but she let him live for another decade.
Thoughts?
We have had Poupoune, (SOD) a spayed terrier/chihuahua cross, for about 12–13 years. During most of that time we also had a mild-mannered chihuahua who Poupoune barely tolerated. Having another dog to supervise gave her something to do and lowered her stress when she was younger, so having two dogs was still a good thing even though they were never friends. He was ill during the last year of his life and during this time Poupoune became more aggressive towards him. We put him down last August.
Last weekend we adopted Plume (LNYD), a small collie cross. LNYD weighs 33 lbs compared to SOD’S 11 lbs, and is about a year old compared to SOD’S 14 years. LNYD is not yet spayed but that will be arranged in the next few weeks. She has seen the vet and she is neither pregnant nor in heat.
SOD is objecting violently to the intruder into the household. While expected, it’s stressful for all of us. What can we do to make the transition to détente easier and quicker?
- SOD eats kibble ad libitum. We fixed up a closet for her that she can access and LNYD cannot, and she has food, water and a blanket there.
- LNYD is fed kibble twice a day but SOD will push her out of the way and eat her food. So I feed LNYD in the morning when SOD is still asleep, and in the evening when SOD is playing her nightly hide-and-seek game looking for hidden treats in the next room.
- SOD sleeps in our bed and LNYD sleeps on the floor in our room. SOD can work herself into a hysterical lather of snarling over LNYD’s presence in the room. She will eventually calm down when I order her to shut up and crawl under the covers where she can’t see LNYD. But then the snarling starts all over again in the morning when LNYD gets up and starts moving around.
- I want to give LNYD a chew toy to keep her busy in the evening when I’m reading in bed, but SOD’s resource-guarding behaviour makes this difficult.
- They go outside together and behave quite nicely in the yard.
- We take them on walks together (on behaviourist principles, SOD only goes on walks with LNYD, but sometimes LNYD will go on a walk without SOD). They walk together nicely.
- If I’m on the computer at home, SOD will lie on her blanket at my feet, under my desk. When LNYD approaches to lie beside me, SOD forbids/ is distressed by this. (When it’s just SOD, under my desk is a warm sheltered cave. When LNYD approaches, she realizes she’s cornered.)
- Alternatively, LNYD approaches with a play bow. When SOD responds with a snarl, LNYD bounces, bows lower and barks. SOD then has a hysterical hyena fit. At these times I put LNYD in a time-out for ten minutes or so: she needs to recognize that playing with SOD is just one of those Ain’t Gonna Happen things.
So. I don’t want SOD’s last two years to be miserable and I want to be able to enjoy both dogs. I’m sure that there are a bunch of things I’m doing completely wrong, and I do know that some of this will work itself out anyway — after all, it’s only been a week — but how will I know when it’s gone beyond “oh, they’ll work it out”? Ten years ago when I got the chihuahua I carefully respected all the advice to leave them to work things out together, but SOD’s aggression toward him just escalated until I realized she would end up killing him. So I told her to stop, and she did. She wasn’t thrilled about it, but she let him live for another decade.
Thoughts?
Also, there is no reason SOD shouldn't get to go for walks alone with you, I am not sure what behaviourist principles you are referring to, but that is not something I have ever heard of and dog behaviour is my second favorite hobby after dog training.
posted by biscotti at 10:16 AM on February 18, 2010
posted by biscotti at 10:16 AM on February 18, 2010
Your old dog has your number. She is stealing the other dog's food right in front of you? Bullshit. No dog should do that in front of a human, mine wouldn't dare to. She knows that I set the rules and distribute the resources and there is no fighting over it.
Putting things out there that the dogs want (food, your company, prime sleeping spots) and not being absolutely 110% clear about who gets what is what is causing the stress and fighting. Each dog should have their own sleeping spot, bed/ crate, food bowl, leash, toys etc that the other is not allowed to touch on penalty of death (or at least a lot of bad-dog!-ing).
Make rules about the things you can control, enforce them 100% of the time and let them figure out the playing and social interaction stuff.
posted by fshgrl at 10:25 AM on February 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
Putting things out there that the dogs want (food, your company, prime sleeping spots) and not being absolutely 110% clear about who gets what is what is causing the stress and fighting. Each dog should have their own sleeping spot, bed/ crate, food bowl, leash, toys etc that the other is not allowed to touch on penalty of death (or at least a lot of bad-dog!-ing).
Make rules about the things you can control, enforce them 100% of the time and let them figure out the playing and social interaction stuff.
posted by fshgrl at 10:25 AM on February 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
Well, in terms of the pack structure, you're treating SOD much differently than LNYD.
SOD gets to eat when he wants, sleep on your bed and under your desk. You are applying a different set of rules to LNYD, who is fed periodically, sleeps on the floor, and is constantly getting disciplined by SOD over border disputes.
Dogs have a well-developed sense of fairness. They also know where they are in the pack at all times, and if not, they are trying to establish or emphasize their position.
SOD is probably experiencing some stress right now, trying to show LNYD that he is still 2nd in command, right under you, and maybe a little bit of an alpha himself. LNYD is probably experiencing some stress right now, wondering if SOD is some kind of asocial jerk, and if this tail position in the pack is permanent.
So what I would do is treat them both the same. Feed them both at the same time, require them both to sleep on the floor or in crates, and correct SOD when he became too territorial over space or resources. I don't know if changes in SOD would make his life miserable, but you've superseded that consideration when you added a new young dog to your pack.
Some older dogs take to puppies quite well, especially if they meet when the young dog is still an infant. At about 1 year, LNYD is probably annoying as hell to SOD. In addition, LNYD is looking to you for leadership, and wondering if you are going to run a fair pack, and wondering if you are going to protect her from SOD. You owe it to both of your dogs to take control of the situation and be alpha, tough but fair.
posted by Seppaku at 10:28 AM on February 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
SOD gets to eat when he wants, sleep on your bed and under your desk. You are applying a different set of rules to LNYD, who is fed periodically, sleeps on the floor, and is constantly getting disciplined by SOD over border disputes.
Dogs have a well-developed sense of fairness. They also know where they are in the pack at all times, and if not, they are trying to establish or emphasize their position.
SOD is probably experiencing some stress right now, trying to show LNYD that he is still 2nd in command, right under you, and maybe a little bit of an alpha himself. LNYD is probably experiencing some stress right now, wondering if SOD is some kind of asocial jerk, and if this tail position in the pack is permanent.
So what I would do is treat them both the same. Feed them both at the same time, require them both to sleep on the floor or in crates, and correct SOD when he became too territorial over space or resources. I don't know if changes in SOD would make his life miserable, but you've superseded that consideration when you added a new young dog to your pack.
Some older dogs take to puppies quite well, especially if they meet when the young dog is still an infant. At about 1 year, LNYD is probably annoying as hell to SOD. In addition, LNYD is looking to you for leadership, and wondering if you are going to run a fair pack, and wondering if you are going to protect her from SOD. You owe it to both of your dogs to take control of the situation and be alpha, tough but fair.
posted by Seppaku at 10:28 AM on February 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
tough but fair.
Repeating for emphasis. Don't underestimate your ability and responsibility to regulate Poupoune's behavior.
- Alternatively, LNYD approaches with a play bow. When SOD responds with a snarl, LNYD bounces, bows lower and barks. SOD then has a hysterical hyena fit. At these times I put LNYD in a time-out for ten minutes or so: she needs to recognize that playing with SOD is just one of those Ain’t Gonna Happen things.
This is backwards. Poupoune needs to be corrected when she is being mean to a new member of the household. As pack leader, it is your repsonsibility to clue her in. Right now, you are giving her every indication that SHE is in charge of things.
-
posted by General Tonic at 2:22 PM on February 18, 2010
Repeating for emphasis. Don't underestimate your ability and responsibility to regulate Poupoune's behavior.
- Alternatively, LNYD approaches with a play bow. When SOD responds with a snarl, LNYD bounces, bows lower and barks. SOD then has a hysterical hyena fit. At these times I put LNYD in a time-out for ten minutes or so: she needs to recognize that playing with SOD is just one of those Ain’t Gonna Happen things.
This is backwards. Poupoune needs to be corrected when she is being mean to a new member of the household. As pack leader, it is your repsonsibility to clue her in. Right now, you are giving her every indication that SHE is in charge of things.
-
posted by General Tonic at 2:22 PM on February 18, 2010
Response by poster: Ok, consensus here from all three of you is that I need to tell SOD to shape up. I can do that. Presumably with some NILIF thrown in.
Chew toys:
biscotti says No Chew Toys because that’s just an excuse for resource guarding and undesired behaviour. That makes total sense. fshgirl says Chew Toys that are clearly assigned and controlled by the Boss. That’s a lot of work.
I think I’m going to go with fshgirl on this one just because I want LNYD to have a chew toy to keep herself busy in the evenings. SOD doesn’t play with toys. She chases balls and sticks in the park, and will try to steal LNYDs toys, and will go ballistic if LNYD shows any interest in getting them back, but she doesn’t actually play with or chew on anything at home. Will making it clear that only LNYD gets toys (and taking them away from her when she’s done) be an appropriate boss move on my part? Or should I give SOD an object to guard, just on principle, while LNYD is chewing on her toy?
biscotti:
“Also, there is no reason SOD shouldn't get to go for walks alone with you, I am not sure what behaviourist principles you are referring to, but that is not something I have ever heard of and dog behaviour is my second favorite hobby after dog training.”
My logic is that SOD likes walks. If she only gets walks when LNYD is around, then LNYD is a good thing.
Bad logic?
Seppaku:
“SOD is probably experiencing some stress right now, trying to show LNYD that he is still 2nd in command, right under you, and maybe a little bit of an alpha himself.”
Very much an alpha.
“LNYD is probably experiencing some stress right now, wondering if SOD is some kind of asocial jerk,”
Very much an asocial jerk.
“...and if this tail position in the pack is permanent.”
Probably. Is that a problem? There’s a lot of disagreement on this question among people who write about dog theory. I see “dogs aren’t people, they just need to know where they are in the hierarchy, any position is fine.” And I also see what I’m getting here, which is “The only hierarchy is Human boss is alpha, Dogs are not alpha.” In the past I tried the first and ultimately went with the latter when I ordered SOD not to kill the chihuahua. I think I’m seeing the same patterns now and I should forget letting them work it out.
“In addition, LNYD is looking to you for leadership, and wondering if you are going to run a fair pack, and wondering if you are going to protect her from SOD.”
Ah. Yes. I get it. I’ve been waiting for LNYD to figure out that she’s supposed to let SOD be dominant and then everyone can relax. But if SOD is going to be a dominant asocial jerk then nobody’s ever going to be happy.
posted by maremare at 2:48 PM on February 18, 2010
Chew toys:
biscotti says No Chew Toys because that’s just an excuse for resource guarding and undesired behaviour. That makes total sense. fshgirl says Chew Toys that are clearly assigned and controlled by the Boss. That’s a lot of work.
I think I’m going to go with fshgirl on this one just because I want LNYD to have a chew toy to keep herself busy in the evenings. SOD doesn’t play with toys. She chases balls and sticks in the park, and will try to steal LNYDs toys, and will go ballistic if LNYD shows any interest in getting them back, but she doesn’t actually play with or chew on anything at home. Will making it clear that only LNYD gets toys (and taking them away from her when she’s done) be an appropriate boss move on my part? Or should I give SOD an object to guard, just on principle, while LNYD is chewing on her toy?
biscotti:
“Also, there is no reason SOD shouldn't get to go for walks alone with you, I am not sure what behaviourist principles you are referring to, but that is not something I have ever heard of and dog behaviour is my second favorite hobby after dog training.”
My logic is that SOD likes walks. If she only gets walks when LNYD is around, then LNYD is a good thing.
Bad logic?
Seppaku:
“SOD is probably experiencing some stress right now, trying to show LNYD that he is still 2nd in command, right under you, and maybe a little bit of an alpha himself.”
Very much an alpha.
“LNYD is probably experiencing some stress right now, wondering if SOD is some kind of asocial jerk,”
Very much an asocial jerk.
“...and if this tail position in the pack is permanent.”
Probably. Is that a problem? There’s a lot of disagreement on this question among people who write about dog theory. I see “dogs aren’t people, they just need to know where they are in the hierarchy, any position is fine.” And I also see what I’m getting here, which is “The only hierarchy is Human boss is alpha, Dogs are not alpha.” In the past I tried the first and ultimately went with the latter when I ordered SOD not to kill the chihuahua. I think I’m seeing the same patterns now and I should forget letting them work it out.
“In addition, LNYD is looking to you for leadership, and wondering if you are going to run a fair pack, and wondering if you are going to protect her from SOD.”
Ah. Yes. I get it. I’ve been waiting for LNYD to figure out that she’s supposed to let SOD be dominant and then everyone can relax. But if SOD is going to be a dominant asocial jerk then nobody’s ever going to be happy.
posted by maremare at 2:48 PM on February 18, 2010
Response by poster: ... above should read,
“Ok, consensus here from all four of you is that I need to tell SOD to shape up.”
posted by maremare at 2:49 PM on February 18, 2010
“Ok, consensus here from all four of you is that I need to tell SOD to shape up.”
posted by maremare at 2:49 PM on February 18, 2010
Response by poster: Still, doesn’t SOD need to be able to escape from LNYD at will?
Right now her secure place is the lair/closet with food in it. The chihuahua needed to eat ad libitum because he got shaky from low blood sugar otherwise, but I think you guys are right, SOD can probably eat meals. So if I take the food out of her lair it will eliminate that particular resource guarding problem. This will be good.
She has a couple of other nooks that have always been hers: the spot under my desk (the chihuahua sat on my lap) or the spot under the other boss’ desk (the chihuahua had his own basket). Do we have to make her give those up? Then where is she supposed to go?
LNYD has a blanket where the chihuahua’s basket used to be, next to the other boss’ desk, and she has a blanket next to my chair. So it’s not like only SOD has nooks. LNYD has nooks too, but because she’s a larger dog they are larger, more exposed nooks. Actually just spots on the floor. So not as prime.
If nobody is allowed nooks any more, am I supposed to crate them in another room while I work/surf?
posted by maremare at 3:07 PM on February 18, 2010
Right now her secure place is the lair/closet with food in it. The chihuahua needed to eat ad libitum because he got shaky from low blood sugar otherwise, but I think you guys are right, SOD can probably eat meals. So if I take the food out of her lair it will eliminate that particular resource guarding problem. This will be good.
She has a couple of other nooks that have always been hers: the spot under my desk (the chihuahua sat on my lap) or the spot under the other boss’ desk (the chihuahua had his own basket). Do we have to make her give those up? Then where is she supposed to go?
LNYD has a blanket where the chihuahua’s basket used to be, next to the other boss’ desk, and she has a blanket next to my chair. So it’s not like only SOD has nooks. LNYD has nooks too, but because she’s a larger dog they are larger, more exposed nooks. Actually just spots on the floor. So not as prime.
If nobody is allowed nooks any more, am I supposed to crate them in another room while I work/surf?
posted by maremare at 3:07 PM on February 18, 2010
Will making it clear that only LNYD gets toys (and taking them away from her when she’s done) be an appropriate boss move on my part? Or should I give SOD an object to guard, just on principle, while LNYD is chewing on her toy?
Give them the same toys and don't' tolerate any fighting. Playing is fine.
Your old dog doesn't have to give up her sleeping spots. Find a spot for the new dog and make sure it knows that's where it's supposed to be. Then the old dog can relax and everyone will be happy.
posted by fshgrl at 3:53 PM on February 18, 2010
Give them the same toys and don't' tolerate any fighting. Playing is fine.
Your old dog doesn't have to give up her sleeping spots. Find a spot for the new dog and make sure it knows that's where it's supposed to be. Then the old dog can relax and everyone will be happy.
posted by fshgrl at 3:53 PM on February 18, 2010
RE: Chew toys
Biscotti is rightly emphasizing that, when your dogs are giving each other the hairy eyeball over toys, food, resources, you should keep them separated when they aren't under your direct supervision.
Both dogs should get a toy. If SOD ignores his toy and goes after LNYD, correct him and return him to his toy. If he persists in ruining LNYD's fun by asserting his dominance over toys, remove him from the situation. Crate him with his toy, or something that he finds distracting. If he throws a fit, let him. It's not his world, man, he just lives in it.
RE: Walks
I find walking dogs together in a pack to be a beneficial exercise for the same reasons that Cesar Milan does. It emphasizes that you're the leader, and that they are both followers of you. It allows them to express their natural inclination to walk the perimeters of their territory, and it helps socialize them to people, traffic, walking correctly on a leash and other dogs.
It might not work exactly as you say - "SOD likes walks, if LNYD is on walks, LNYD is good" - but it does negate the fairness issue. Not only that, but your LNYD, being a herding breed, probably wants to be part of your pack so so so bad, AND has excess energy to burn being a young dog. Walks, walks, walks! If anything, I would be walking LNYD more than SOD, anticipating that a smaller, older dog would find so much exercise hard on his little bod.
RE: pack structure
I see that the main problem that you're having is that SOD is running the show. It sounds like you realize that, and will take steps to equal things out.
Humans DO have to be alpha, and that has to be absolute over all dogdom, even aging SOD and endearing LNYD. Beneath alpha, the dog pack does have strata. And being the tail is fine, so long as that is settled among the individuals involved. SOD and LNYD obviously haven't settled it yet. SOD is trying to act as alpha to settle this, which is where you need to intercede. You need to re-establish yourself as alpha in the eyes of both dogs, and you need to treat both dogs as equally beneath you.
Example from my pack: we used to have food-dominance issues. My female doberman would slash at my male pit bull's face because she would get anxious that he was going to steal her food. Sounds fun, no? The problem was that they were being fed in the open. Once each was fed in his or her own crate, we had no more food dominance issues. The same thing with high-value treats like bones from the butcher. Each gets one. Any attempt to get more than their fair share is firmly dealt with.
Can you imagine if I had let them work it out on their own? Yikes!
So:
- First off, only just added LNYD to the family so it's bound to be crazy town for a while.
- Establish each dog with its own 'zone.'
- To accommodate SOD, can you feel several small meals a day instead of free-feed?
- It may be tough on the heartstrings, but can you stop demonstrating favoritism to SOD by letting him sleep on your bed? By doing so, you're confusing the alpha issue.
- Chew toys - equal or separate.
- LNYD, being unwise and uncouth, needs NILF and obedience training.
-SOD can have 'his spot,' but he can't guard it. LNYD needs her own spot.
Best of luck!
posted by Seppaku at 10:51 PM on February 20, 2010
Biscotti is rightly emphasizing that, when your dogs are giving each other the hairy eyeball over toys, food, resources, you should keep them separated when they aren't under your direct supervision.
Both dogs should get a toy. If SOD ignores his toy and goes after LNYD, correct him and return him to his toy. If he persists in ruining LNYD's fun by asserting his dominance over toys, remove him from the situation. Crate him with his toy, or something that he finds distracting. If he throws a fit, let him. It's not his world, man, he just lives in it.
RE: Walks
I find walking dogs together in a pack to be a beneficial exercise for the same reasons that Cesar Milan does. It emphasizes that you're the leader, and that they are both followers of you. It allows them to express their natural inclination to walk the perimeters of their territory, and it helps socialize them to people, traffic, walking correctly on a leash and other dogs.
It might not work exactly as you say - "SOD likes walks, if LNYD is on walks, LNYD is good" - but it does negate the fairness issue. Not only that, but your LNYD, being a herding breed, probably wants to be part of your pack so so so bad, AND has excess energy to burn being a young dog. Walks, walks, walks! If anything, I would be walking LNYD more than SOD, anticipating that a smaller, older dog would find so much exercise hard on his little bod.
RE: pack structure
I see that the main problem that you're having is that SOD is running the show. It sounds like you realize that, and will take steps to equal things out.
Humans DO have to be alpha, and that has to be absolute over all dogdom, even aging SOD and endearing LNYD. Beneath alpha, the dog pack does have strata. And being the tail is fine, so long as that is settled among the individuals involved. SOD and LNYD obviously haven't settled it yet. SOD is trying to act as alpha to settle this, which is where you need to intercede. You need to re-establish yourself as alpha in the eyes of both dogs, and you need to treat both dogs as equally beneath you.
Example from my pack: we used to have food-dominance issues. My female doberman would slash at my male pit bull's face because she would get anxious that he was going to steal her food. Sounds fun, no? The problem was that they were being fed in the open. Once each was fed in his or her own crate, we had no more food dominance issues. The same thing with high-value treats like bones from the butcher. Each gets one. Any attempt to get more than their fair share is firmly dealt with.
Can you imagine if I had let them work it out on their own? Yikes!
So:
- First off, only just added LNYD to the family so it's bound to be crazy town for a while.
- Establish each dog with its own 'zone.'
- To accommodate SOD, can you feel several small meals a day instead of free-feed?
- It may be tough on the heartstrings, but can you stop demonstrating favoritism to SOD by letting him sleep on your bed? By doing so, you're confusing the alpha issue.
- Chew toys - equal or separate.
- LNYD, being unwise and uncouth, needs NILF and obedience training.
-SOD can have 'his spot,' but he can't guard it. LNYD needs her own spot.
Best of luck!
posted by Seppaku at 10:51 PM on February 20, 2010
Response by poster: Update: things are going better.
LNYD seems perfectly happy to let SOD be alpha2 but SOD was escalating anyway. Someone else pointed out that SOD probably can't recognize LNYD's "calming signs" or cues that SOD's status as alpha2 is cool with her. SOD has never gotten along with other dogs and was probably removed from her litter very young. This other person proposed clicker training to teach SOD to dial back the aggression and to respond to LNYD's placating cues, but this is just not on because SOD is deaf. instead of working on social skills we're focussing on just getting SOD to Ignore LNYD, as we know that Ignoring is a skill she's quite good at.
They don't fight over food, so we're continuing what we're doing: SOD has ad libitum food in a private cave and LNYD has two meals a day when SOD can't watch. Easy to do and no conflicts, and congruent with the sub-hierarchy of SOD being alpha2.
SOD has no interest in toys at all except to steal them from someone else and guard them. Being fair by giving them each a toy is not going to help at all because then SOD will have to both 1) figure out how to steal the other toy and 2) guard her toy. Which will be twice as bad as just 1) figure out how to steal the other toy. We're handling toys by owning them. We give LNYD a toy and watch her carefully. When she's done with it we take it away. And in the meantime we tell SOD to STFU and just zone out in her prime sleeping spot between the two bosses on the couch or in the bed. (A blanket over her head helps her to Ignore! Ignore! Ignore!) They don't have exactly the same goodies (LNYD has a toy; SOD has a prime spot) but they both have something to be grateful for.
LNYD sleeps on her special blankets on the floor in our room. We keep the house quite cold, so we've been letting SOD sleep with us. In practical terms this seems to be working out. If SOD gets on the floor she crawls under the bad and snarls at LNYD. If she stays in the bed she can position herself so that she can't see LNYD and not have to defend anything. Ignore!
Oh yes, walkies. Lots and lots of walkies. We've started to develop a routine where LNYD gets to meet friends in the park and they herd eachother through the snow. Walks are very important and would be whether or not we had two dogs. Because we do have two dogs and they get along on walks, we are using walks as a reinforcement of getting along. SOD doesn't go on as many walks as LNYD, but when she does LNYD goes too.
We can't use clicker training with SOD, but we're trying to use positive reinforcement by giving them both treats when they are behaving nicely within sight of eachother.
And while SOD is getting used to being told to STFU and Ignore!, she still gets great satisfaction out of peeing on LNYD's pee. So it's not all bad.
posted by maremare at 5:07 AM on February 21, 2010
LNYD seems perfectly happy to let SOD be alpha2 but SOD was escalating anyway. Someone else pointed out that SOD probably can't recognize LNYD's "calming signs" or cues that SOD's status as alpha2 is cool with her. SOD has never gotten along with other dogs and was probably removed from her litter very young. This other person proposed clicker training to teach SOD to dial back the aggression and to respond to LNYD's placating cues, but this is just not on because SOD is deaf. instead of working on social skills we're focussing on just getting SOD to Ignore LNYD, as we know that Ignoring is a skill she's quite good at.
They don't fight over food, so we're continuing what we're doing: SOD has ad libitum food in a private cave and LNYD has two meals a day when SOD can't watch. Easy to do and no conflicts, and congruent with the sub-hierarchy of SOD being alpha2.
SOD has no interest in toys at all except to steal them from someone else and guard them. Being fair by giving them each a toy is not going to help at all because then SOD will have to both 1) figure out how to steal the other toy and 2) guard her toy. Which will be twice as bad as just 1) figure out how to steal the other toy. We're handling toys by owning them. We give LNYD a toy and watch her carefully. When she's done with it we take it away. And in the meantime we tell SOD to STFU and just zone out in her prime sleeping spot between the two bosses on the couch or in the bed. (A blanket over her head helps her to Ignore! Ignore! Ignore!) They don't have exactly the same goodies (LNYD has a toy; SOD has a prime spot) but they both have something to be grateful for.
LNYD sleeps on her special blankets on the floor in our room. We keep the house quite cold, so we've been letting SOD sleep with us. In practical terms this seems to be working out. If SOD gets on the floor she crawls under the bad and snarls at LNYD. If she stays in the bed she can position herself so that she can't see LNYD and not have to defend anything. Ignore!
Oh yes, walkies. Lots and lots of walkies. We've started to develop a routine where LNYD gets to meet friends in the park and they herd eachother through the snow. Walks are very important and would be whether or not we had two dogs. Because we do have two dogs and they get along on walks, we are using walks as a reinforcement of getting along. SOD doesn't go on as many walks as LNYD, but when she does LNYD goes too.
We can't use clicker training with SOD, but we're trying to use positive reinforcement by giving them both treats when they are behaving nicely within sight of eachother.
And while SOD is getting used to being told to STFU and Ignore!, she still gets great satisfaction out of peeing on LNYD's pee. So it's not all bad.
posted by maremare at 5:07 AM on February 21, 2010
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Second, you need to adjust the feeding methods so that food doesn't become a trigger for dissent, as you are doing things now, it is only a matter of time before a serious fight breaks out over food. Meals are a must, no more free feeding. Ideally feed LNYD in her crate, and out of sight of SOD, and do not let her out until SOD has finished eating AND you have taken up the food bowl.
Third, make sure SOD has somewhere to go that LNYD cannot get to for alone time, and/or give LNYD some crate time a few times a day to give SOD a break.
They will most likely work this out eventually, but minimize opportunities for things to explode by removing common triggers like high value items (toys, chewies, whatever), competition for food (and this can include even seeing each other while eating), and competition for your attention. Be sure to spend some one-on-one time with each dog alone every day. And seriously, do not leave them alone together unsupervised.
posted by biscotti at 10:14 AM on February 18, 2010