Nodes or no nodes?
February 3, 2010 2:08 PM Subscribe
Do humans have lymph nodes in their backs?
I've been all over the google today and I can't get a definitive answer to this. I find articles here and there that mention lower back lymph nodes, but not from necessarily reputable sources.
I've done image searches for charts of the lymphatic system, but all I've found are charts that show only the front of the body, never the back, except this one, which still confuses me. Is it showing the front lymphatic system from behind, or are some of those nodes actually in the back? And if so, are they really only along the spine itself and no where else in the back?
If it's relevant, I'm asking because I've been having lymph node pain for several weeks now, all over my body -- including my back -- and when I went to the dr. for an exam today, she told me that there are no lymph nodes in the back and that I have fibromyalgia (this seems very wrong to me, because I hurt in almost none of the points all the fm guides talk about, and lots of places they don't mention).
Thank you all in advance. I feel like I've done a thorough search, but I'm trying to go off caffeine starting today, so there is a fair chance I missed something obvious.
Also, I'm thinking I need to find a different doctor, at least for a second opinion. Is there a certain type of doctor that I should go to, or just another GP?
I've been all over the google today and I can't get a definitive answer to this. I find articles here and there that mention lower back lymph nodes, but not from necessarily reputable sources.
I've done image searches for charts of the lymphatic system, but all I've found are charts that show only the front of the body, never the back, except this one, which still confuses me. Is it showing the front lymphatic system from behind, or are some of those nodes actually in the back? And if so, are they really only along the spine itself and no where else in the back?
If it's relevant, I'm asking because I've been having lymph node pain for several weeks now, all over my body -- including my back -- and when I went to the dr. for an exam today, she told me that there are no lymph nodes in the back and that I have fibromyalgia (this seems very wrong to me, because I hurt in almost none of the points all the fm guides talk about, and lots of places they don't mention).
Thank you all in advance. I feel like I've done a thorough search, but I'm trying to go off caffeine starting today, so there is a fair chance I missed something obvious.
Also, I'm thinking I need to find a different doctor, at least for a second opinion. Is there a certain type of doctor that I should go to, or just another GP?
Rather depends what you mean by 'back'. There aren't any near the surface of your back, but inside your chest there are nodes that are towards the back of the cavity. There are ones in your armpit as well, which is towards your back.
All over lymph node pain sounds very odd to me - they tend to be quite focal in pain/swelling, where there is an infection (or other aggravation of the immune system). Why do you think the pain is in your lymph nodes? Is it only in the nodes? Are they swollen? (IANAD, but these are useful things to know).
posted by Coobeastie at 3:02 PM on February 3, 2010
All over lymph node pain sounds very odd to me - they tend to be quite focal in pain/swelling, where there is an infection (or other aggravation of the immune system). Why do you think the pain is in your lymph nodes? Is it only in the nodes? Are they swollen? (IANAD, but these are useful things to know).
posted by Coobeastie at 3:02 PM on February 3, 2010
Here's a crude diagram of the lymphatic system. If you want to see the diagrams most med students use, check out the Netter's website or google image search something along the lines of "netter's lymph".
I just went looking through Moore's Clinically Oriented Anatomy and didn't find anything about lymph nodes in the back. That doesn't necessarily mean they don't exist though.
When you say "back", what do you mean exactly? The muscles? Shoulders? Near the spine? What do you mean by lymph node pain? Could you describe the pain a bit more? Where exactly is it located? What does it feel like? Do you feel any lumps or masses?
IANAD, but if you tell me more I can probably direct you to better resources.
posted by abirae at 3:53 PM on February 3, 2010
I just went looking through Moore's Clinically Oriented Anatomy and didn't find anything about lymph nodes in the back. That doesn't necessarily mean they don't exist though.
When you say "back", what do you mean exactly? The muscles? Shoulders? Near the spine? What do you mean by lymph node pain? Could you describe the pain a bit more? Where exactly is it located? What does it feel like? Do you feel any lumps or masses?
IANAD, but if you tell me more I can probably direct you to better resources.
posted by abirae at 3:53 PM on February 3, 2010
Response by poster: royalsong: that is an excellent link. I never would have thought to search for a 3d view. Thanks!
The pain happens in areas that show as lymph nodes on the charts that you linked to, and all the charts I found on my own, but I allow for the possibility that it is something else entirely. Except I really, really can't find a connection to it and fibromyalgia.
It's always in my underarm area on both sides, every day. Then the other sites move around. One day it will be at the base of my neck, or the middle of my chest, or in the groin area, or my lower back. Today it is in both underarms plus under my jaw but only on the left side. This is the first time it's been in my neck itself.
It feels tender and sore, whether it's being pressed or not, but there are no lumps that I (or my doctor) could feel, and no redness on the skin at all.
The ones I thought I felt in my back were in the lower back one day, and then yesterday they were in the upper half of my back, sort of in-between my spine and my shoulder blades, on each side. They didn't feel very deep in my back, but not right under the skin, either. They definitely didn't feel like any kind of muscle pain I've experienced before, but I guess they could have been.
Putting heat on the sore area helps to some extent; ibuprofen helps a little, too, but nothing makes it just go away.
This has been going on for weeks, but the underarm pain started a couple months ago during a very stressful time in my family. I thought it would ease up once the stress eased up, but instead it seems to have gotten worse.
posted by Brody's chum at 4:38 PM on February 3, 2010
The pain happens in areas that show as lymph nodes on the charts that you linked to, and all the charts I found on my own, but I allow for the possibility that it is something else entirely. Except I really, really can't find a connection to it and fibromyalgia.
It's always in my underarm area on both sides, every day. Then the other sites move around. One day it will be at the base of my neck, or the middle of my chest, or in the groin area, or my lower back. Today it is in both underarms plus under my jaw but only on the left side. This is the first time it's been in my neck itself.
It feels tender and sore, whether it's being pressed or not, but there are no lumps that I (or my doctor) could feel, and no redness on the skin at all.
The ones I thought I felt in my back were in the lower back one day, and then yesterday they were in the upper half of my back, sort of in-between my spine and my shoulder blades, on each side. They didn't feel very deep in my back, but not right under the skin, either. They definitely didn't feel like any kind of muscle pain I've experienced before, but I guess they could have been.
Putting heat on the sore area helps to some extent; ibuprofen helps a little, too, but nothing makes it just go away.
This has been going on for weeks, but the underarm pain started a couple months ago during a very stressful time in my family. I thought it would ease up once the stress eased up, but instead it seems to have gotten worse.
posted by Brody's chum at 4:38 PM on February 3, 2010
Best answer: Oh wow, royalsong's diagram is awesome. I'm really impressed with the state of the art in medical illustration.
And I just realized that one person's front may be another person's back. I was thinking of nodes close to the skin of the back, but there are plenty of lymph nodes just anterior to the bodies of the vertebrae (on th ebelly side of the spine). Depending on what you consider "back", you might be interested in the thoracic duct which runs anterior to vertebral bodies starting inferiorly at L1 or L2. There are also lumbar lymph nodes.
posted by abirae at 4:51 PM on February 3, 2010
And I just realized that one person's front may be another person's back. I was thinking of nodes close to the skin of the back, but there are plenty of lymph nodes just anterior to the bodies of the vertebrae (on th ebelly side of the spine). Depending on what you consider "back", you might be interested in the thoracic duct which runs anterior to vertebral bodies starting inferiorly at L1 or L2. There are also lumbar lymph nodes.
posted by abirae at 4:51 PM on February 3, 2010
My goodness. I'm sorry you've been in such pain.
I'd get a second opinion.
If you have an internist (internal medicine) doctor who you know and trust, or one that comes recommended by friends, that would be my first stop. And make sure to tell them everything you've told us, including how you have experienced the pain in both arm pits for several months and it has been getting worse. Give them your complete medical history. Tell them why you think it's your lymph nodes (point to the locations of the pain), why you don't think it's fibromyalgia, and ask them to explain their reasoning and how they come to a diagnosis.
posted by abirae at 5:11 PM on February 3, 2010
I'd get a second opinion.
If you have an internist (internal medicine) doctor who you know and trust, or one that comes recommended by friends, that would be my first stop. And make sure to tell them everything you've told us, including how you have experienced the pain in both arm pits for several months and it has been getting worse. Give them your complete medical history. Tell them why you think it's your lymph nodes (point to the locations of the pain), why you don't think it's fibromyalgia, and ask them to explain their reasoning and how they come to a diagnosis.
posted by abirae at 5:11 PM on February 3, 2010
Fibromyalgia is notorious as a blanket diagnosis when the Doc doesn't know what's really going on. This really sucks for the people that legitimately have it, because it's frequently dismissed as a fake problem just so people can have a label to validate their complaints. It gets discussed a lot in my classes.
Anyway, from what I recall in my recent Anatomy class, and from the pictures linked here, there really aren't any lymph nodes specifically in the back (they tend to cluster around highly vascular areas, and the low back isn't usually that). However, every anatomy map you'll see is just an approximation of where things usually are. You might have some that extend closer to your back than others do. Or it could be something altogether different.
Seconding Coobeastie that this might very likely be an infection of some sort.
posted by purpletangerine at 6:02 PM on February 3, 2010
Anyway, from what I recall in my recent Anatomy class, and from the pictures linked here, there really aren't any lymph nodes specifically in the back (they tend to cluster around highly vascular areas, and the low back isn't usually that). However, every anatomy map you'll see is just an approximation of where things usually are. You might have some that extend closer to your back than others do. Or it could be something altogether different.
Seconding Coobeastie that this might very likely be an infection of some sort.
posted by purpletangerine at 6:02 PM on February 3, 2010
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Assuming that is accurate: it looks like 90% of them at in the front of the body while some extend into the middle/back.
disclaimer: I have no medical degree what so ever, and I never took an anatomy class.
posted by royalsong at 2:19 PM on February 3, 2010