Subtitlinger
January 16, 2010 8:59 PM Subscribe
Why were the subtitles different from what the actors actually said in the movie I just watched?
I was watching the film with subtitling on, and the variations were slight, but they were there. Sometimes entire sentences were different from what the actors actually said and what I read. I see this a lot. Why are they different, if anyone knows?
I was watching the film with subtitling on, and the variations were slight, but they were there. Sometimes entire sentences were different from what the actors actually said and what I read. I see this a lot. Why are they different, if anyone knows?
They also need to fit the subtitle into a specific amount of time, based on the shots you're seeing on screen. And sometimes depending on the vagaries of various languages the original phrase might be too long to fit. I do remember this from my time spent working in production -- there's a specific formula for how long a subtitle has to stay on screen to be readable. A certain number of frames per letter. I want to say it's 3 frames per letter, but I'm not sure if tha'ts right.
posted by BlahLaLa at 9:09 PM on January 16, 2010
posted by BlahLaLa at 9:09 PM on January 16, 2010
it's not just the "movie you were watching" - it's a lot of movies, maybe even most, especially if the movie is in one language and the subtitles are in another.
posted by nadawi at 9:11 PM on January 16, 2010
posted by nadawi at 9:11 PM on January 16, 2010
Best answer: Often the subtitles are made from the script. Often, last-minute dialogue changes get made or actors improvise and these changes don't go into the script. Thus the discrepancies.
posted by brainmouse at 9:16 PM on January 16, 2010 [4 favorites]
posted by brainmouse at 9:16 PM on January 16, 2010 [4 favorites]
Best answer: It's a combo of what everyone has said so far:
-- they have to fit in a certain area of the screen for the amount of time that corresponds reasonably well to the dialogue, which is why they may be abbreviated to give the gist rather than the exact wording, which is why you get variations like ACTOR: "I've waited my whole life to find someone like you, and now at last you're here in my arms and I can't believe it's true!" SUBTITLE: "I've waited my whole life to find someone like you. Now at last you're here." and
-- sometimes they're done from a script OR a pre-loop version that doesn't reflect last-minute dialogue changes, which is why you get variations like ACTOR: "So, you're going to the store?" SUBTITLE: "You're on your way to the supermarket?".
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:22 PM on January 16, 2010
-- they have to fit in a certain area of the screen for the amount of time that corresponds reasonably well to the dialogue, which is why they may be abbreviated to give the gist rather than the exact wording, which is why you get variations like ACTOR: "I've waited my whole life to find someone like you, and now at last you're here in my arms and I can't believe it's true!" SUBTITLE: "I've waited my whole life to find someone like you. Now at last you're here." and
-- sometimes they're done from a script OR a pre-loop version that doesn't reflect last-minute dialogue changes, which is why you get variations like ACTOR: "So, you're going to the store?" SUBTITLE: "You're on your way to the supermarket?".
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:22 PM on January 16, 2010
I got a really good sense of the variability in subtitles while visiting my family a few Christmases ago and noticed that the Arrested Development DVDs my brother brought had subtitles that tracked the dialogue very closely, but when watched The West Wing they became a lot more terse in relation to the sound. Apparently they decided they didn't want to force people to read as fast as Aaron Sorkin characters talk, which is probably for the best.
These are for the English subtitles for English-language shows, by the way. Translated subs will naturally vary more.
posted by tellumo at 9:29 PM on January 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
These are for the English subtitles for English-language shows, by the way. Translated subs will naturally vary more.
posted by tellumo at 9:29 PM on January 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
If you think the subtitles are bad, try turning on the captions. (Ok, the captions aren't always terrible, but sometimes you'd think they were transcribed by a six year old.)
posted by Soliloquy at 9:29 PM on January 16, 2010
posted by Soliloquy at 9:29 PM on January 16, 2010
Yup, you'll see some really interesting things with subtitles. I know a smattering of japanese, a handful of words, but even then when I watch japanese media, I can tell when the english subtitles don't match the dialogue. And it's pretty jarring sometimes, a single word changed can change the entire gist of what's being talked about. And sometimes dialogue is indeed re-written wholesale.
And it gets more interesting, for example in the DVD of "Employee of the Month" from 2006 (spoilers ahead) - at one point, Vince and his latino sidekick break into Zack's house, in order to (if I recall correctly) either turn off his clocks, or set them to the wrong time - so Zack wakes up late, is late for work, and then loses the EOTM competition.
Well, the duo are almost discovered by Zack's elderly grandmother. Vince's latino sidekick pulls out a switchblade, to the disgust of Vince. After the crisis passes, he puts the knife away.
Vince then tells his friend, "I thought you were mexican, not ----"
Huh? I played that over and over, and was unable to figure out what that sentence fragment meant.
I then turned on the subtitles: "I thought you were mexican, not puerto rican".
So yes, subtitles can not match spoken dialogue. In this case the spoken dialogue was censored, the subtitles were not.
posted by thermonuclear.jive.turkey at 9:37 PM on January 16, 2010
And it gets more interesting, for example in the DVD of "Employee of the Month" from 2006 (spoilers ahead) - at one point, Vince and his latino sidekick break into Zack's house, in order to (if I recall correctly) either turn off his clocks, or set them to the wrong time - so Zack wakes up late, is late for work, and then loses the EOTM competition.
Well, the duo are almost discovered by Zack's elderly grandmother. Vince's latino sidekick pulls out a switchblade, to the disgust of Vince. After the crisis passes, he puts the knife away.
Vince then tells his friend, "I thought you were mexican, not ----"
Huh? I played that over and over, and was unable to figure out what that sentence fragment meant.
I then turned on the subtitles: "I thought you were mexican, not puerto rican".
So yes, subtitles can not match spoken dialogue. In this case the spoken dialogue was censored, the subtitles were not.
posted by thermonuclear.jive.turkey at 9:37 PM on January 16, 2010
I'm always amused when the curse is bleeped, but comes through loud and clear in the caption.
Also, what everyone else said.
posted by madajb at 10:09 PM on January 16, 2010
Also, what everyone else said.
posted by madajb at 10:09 PM on January 16, 2010
Ok, the captions aren't always terrible, but sometimes you'd think they were transcribed by a six year old.
In point of fact, many closed captions -- particularly for live broadcasts -- are in fact generated automatically, with all of the Google Translate mot juste you would expect.
I've just been watching Wallander, with Kenneth Branagh, and saw quite a few elisions from the spoken dialog, especially during dialog-heavy scenes. Some movies that rely on dialog overlap, e.g. Altman or Mamet or Tarantino, sometimes have captions of two characters on screen at once, or use ellipses to indicate that dialog will continue in the next screen. It's really more art than science to make sure all the important stuff is conveyed.
I find this somewhat amusing given the very forceful DGA-mandated disclaimer you see for pan & scan VHS (ah, the dying breed): "This movie has been modified from its original version. It has been formatted to fit your screen." And heck, every DVD with a commentary track has the pee-pants disclaimer that the people speaking do not represent the studio. Quelle horreur! Well, maybe they should disclaim the captioning as well, because every once in a while it's really different.
posted by dhartung at 10:17 PM on January 16, 2010
In point of fact, many closed captions -- particularly for live broadcasts -- are in fact generated automatically, with all of the Google Translate mot juste you would expect.
I've just been watching Wallander, with Kenneth Branagh, and saw quite a few elisions from the spoken dialog, especially during dialog-heavy scenes. Some movies that rely on dialog overlap, e.g. Altman or Mamet or Tarantino, sometimes have captions of two characters on screen at once, or use ellipses to indicate that dialog will continue in the next screen. It's really more art than science to make sure all the important stuff is conveyed.
I find this somewhat amusing given the very forceful DGA-mandated disclaimer you see for pan & scan VHS (ah, the dying breed): "This movie has been modified from its original version. It has been formatted to fit your screen." And heck, every DVD with a commentary track has the pee-pants disclaimer that the people speaking do not represent the studio. Quelle horreur! Well, maybe they should disclaim the captioning as well, because every once in a while it's really different.
posted by dhartung at 10:17 PM on January 16, 2010
Best answer: Finally, a question I can answer as a professional! But I've been beaten by everybody else here!
Yes, the biggest problem is the (often incredibly short) time we have to work with. For example, in the TV drama I'm working on right this moment (yes, I come to MetaFilter to procrastinate), there's a line that goes like this when translated as accurately as possible from the Japanese: "My Corporate Planning & Administration Division team is collecting information regarding the reorganization of the automotive industry to prepare for the upcoming liberalization of the capital market." Whew! But in reality, I've only got about 4.21 seconds to work with, which amounts to about 55 letters more or less including spaces. So that same line will appear as: "We need information to face the lifting of market restrictions." Which is still a bit too long, but I can't cut out any more information from that particular line (the part about gathering information to deal with the lifting of market restrictions) without it becoming completely meaningless in the bigger frame of the story. The information I cut out here out of necessity, for example about the division this character belongs to and the content of the information his team is gathering, will be somehow filled in somewhere else in the story.
Also, when a particular line that an actor is speaking is long, the line must be cut into sections to make the subtitle fit. In Japanese, the verb often comes at the end of the sentence, but in English it's more natural to bring the same verb at the beginning of the sentence. So what happens is that when the actor starts saying the line, the subtitle is showing the end of his sentence before he actually says it. Am I making sense?
So it's sort of like working out a puzzle piece by piece. How can I translate this particular line within the time limit I have to work with without rendering it completely meaningless? While at the same time capturing the nuance of the character's speech patterns, emotions, vocabulary etc.? While also preserving the overall tone of the work? It's challenging, but I think that's why I enjoy doing it.
But sometimes the discrepancy is just bad translation. I used to see a lot of that in Hollywood flicks with Japanese subtitles, where the translation was just plain wrong. Recently, though, I don't seem to notice mistakes as much as I used to, which probably means that there are more competent translators working in the industry now than, say, 20 years ago.
posted by misozaki at 10:21 PM on January 16, 2010 [14 favorites]
Yes, the biggest problem is the (often incredibly short) time we have to work with. For example, in the TV drama I'm working on right this moment (yes, I come to MetaFilter to procrastinate), there's a line that goes like this when translated as accurately as possible from the Japanese: "My Corporate Planning & Administration Division team is collecting information regarding the reorganization of the automotive industry to prepare for the upcoming liberalization of the capital market." Whew! But in reality, I've only got about 4.21 seconds to work with, which amounts to about 55 letters more or less including spaces. So that same line will appear as: "We need information to face the lifting of market restrictions." Which is still a bit too long, but I can't cut out any more information from that particular line (the part about gathering information to deal with the lifting of market restrictions) without it becoming completely meaningless in the bigger frame of the story. The information I cut out here out of necessity, for example about the division this character belongs to and the content of the information his team is gathering, will be somehow filled in somewhere else in the story.
Also, when a particular line that an actor is speaking is long, the line must be cut into sections to make the subtitle fit. In Japanese, the verb often comes at the end of the sentence, but in English it's more natural to bring the same verb at the beginning of the sentence. So what happens is that when the actor starts saying the line, the subtitle is showing the end of his sentence before he actually says it. Am I making sense?
So it's sort of like working out a puzzle piece by piece. How can I translate this particular line within the time limit I have to work with without rendering it completely meaningless? While at the same time capturing the nuance of the character's speech patterns, emotions, vocabulary etc.? While also preserving the overall tone of the work? It's challenging, but I think that's why I enjoy doing it.
But sometimes the discrepancy is just bad translation. I used to see a lot of that in Hollywood flicks with Japanese subtitles, where the translation was just plain wrong. Recently, though, I don't seem to notice mistakes as much as I used to, which probably means that there are more competent translators working in the industry now than, say, 20 years ago.
posted by misozaki at 10:21 PM on January 16, 2010 [14 favorites]
I'm always amused when the curse is bleeped, but comes through loud and clear in the caption.
The fumy thing about Mad Men on AMC, that is was the reverse.
posted by ShooBoo at 10:58 PM on January 16, 2010
The fumy thing about Mad Men on AMC, that is was the reverse.
posted by ShooBoo at 10:58 PM on January 16, 2010
Ok, the captions aren't always terrible, but sometimes you'd think they were transcribed by a six year old.
Worse yet, there can be a big difference between the cinema and DVD versions. I saw La Femme Nikita at the theatre, and loved it. I got the DVD and... the subtitles are awful. The cinema version conveys a bunch of depth/complexity (or at least interest) for the characters. The DVD subs are suitable for drooling morons and appear to have been done by someone who actively hated the movie.
posted by rodgerd at 11:04 PM on January 16, 2010
Worse yet, there can be a big difference between the cinema and DVD versions. I saw La Femme Nikita at the theatre, and loved it. I got the DVD and... the subtitles are awful. The cinema version conveys a bunch of depth/complexity (or at least interest) for the characters. The DVD subs are suitable for drooling morons and appear to have been done by someone who actively hated the movie.
posted by rodgerd at 11:04 PM on January 16, 2010
As one or two other have alluded above, don't overlook the possibility that there is some dubious competency involved in this too. A bit of googling will tell you the shocking tale of the subtitles on the DVD of Let The Right One In, which render it a considerably stoopider movie than it was in the theatres (with a different set of subtitles).
Sometimes it is just bad translation work: a couple of characters in Jean de Florette justify their Machiavellian scheming by shrugging and insisting that things could turn out no other way and their hands were forced. Now, the harmonica theme that runs through Jean de Florette is Verdi's "La Forza del Destina" and the phrase the French-speaking characters employ each time is "la force du destin." It would seem obvious to the pointy of banality that what the subtitles should have here is "the force of destiny." What they actually mention each time is the much more pallid "fate."
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:06 PM on January 16, 2010
Sometimes it is just bad translation work: a couple of characters in Jean de Florette justify their Machiavellian scheming by shrugging and insisting that things could turn out no other way and their hands were forced. Now, the harmonica theme that runs through Jean de Florette is Verdi's "La Forza del Destina" and the phrase the French-speaking characters employ each time is "la force du destin." It would seem obvious to the pointy of banality that what the subtitles should have here is "the force of destiny." What they actually mention each time is the much more pallid "fate."
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:06 PM on January 16, 2010
I agree that translators sometimes get it wrong - both word definition and contextual usage vary across cultures. Take this example:
I was watching a mainstream US film in an Israeli cinema, reading along with the Hebrew subtitles as I listened to the English dialogue. A character exclaimed "Jesus!" The translation was the word for "cheeses!"
No one else in the theater seemed to notice. I have no idea if this is a common substution, or just a one-time mistake, but it sure cracked me up!
posted by quinoa at 11:46 PM on January 16, 2010
I was watching a mainstream US film in an Israeli cinema, reading along with the Hebrew subtitles as I listened to the English dialogue. A character exclaimed "Jesus!" The translation was the word for "cheeses!"
No one else in the theater seemed to notice. I have no idea if this is a common substution, or just a one-time mistake, but it sure cracked me up!
posted by quinoa at 11:46 PM on January 16, 2010
Space and time, as everyone has said, but also very dependant on the people hired to do the subtitles. For example, there was a recent kerfuffle about some awful, movie-altering subtitles on Let The Right One In, and for Pan's Labyrinth, Guillermo Del Toro had had such godawful experiences with subtitling companies that he wrote them all himself.
posted by Billegible at 12:00 AM on January 17, 2010
posted by Billegible at 12:00 AM on January 17, 2010
Slightly OT, but closely related: not only subtitling, but also dubbing is a frequent source of howlers. Like the Italian dub of Slumdog Millionaire:
[A] Muslim boy from the slums of Mumbai sees his mother beaten to death by a group of Hindus armed with clubs who attack the neighbourhood. In the Italian version, an off-screen voice shouts “They’re Muslims, run!”, while in the original version the voice shouts “They’re Muslims, get them!”. The film’s Italian distributor, Lucky Red, has said the mistake was a result of human error and has corrected digital copies of the film.
posted by aqsakal at 12:52 AM on January 17, 2010
[A] Muslim boy from the slums of Mumbai sees his mother beaten to death by a group of Hindus armed with clubs who attack the neighbourhood. In the Italian version, an off-screen voice shouts “They’re Muslims, run!”, while in the original version the voice shouts “They’re Muslims, get them!”. The film’s Italian distributor, Lucky Red, has said the mistake was a result of human error and has corrected digital copies of the film.
posted by aqsakal at 12:52 AM on January 17, 2010
off topic, but there seems to be some interest in the wider issues
an easy read (although quite old) article on the power of film transation for non-linguists/
Film translation can enforce the social and cultural norms of the target population. If you look at early Perdro Almodovar movies subtitled into English, most of the female characters when "acting-out" are toned down, swear words often rendered as "damn, having a drag on a porra changed to cigarette", etc., etc., This also goes for the transexual characters when acting female.
There's a fascinating history of subtitling and dubbing under fascist regimes and some very funny "howlers". The dubbing of African Queen into Spanish is one of the best.
posted by Wilder at 5:43 AM on January 17, 2010
an easy read (although quite old) article on the power of film transation for non-linguists/
Film translation can enforce the social and cultural norms of the target population. If you look at early Perdro Almodovar movies subtitled into English, most of the female characters when "acting-out" are toned down, swear words often rendered as "damn, having a drag on a porra changed to cigarette", etc., etc., This also goes for the transexual characters when acting female.
There's a fascinating history of subtitling and dubbing under fascist regimes and some very funny "howlers". The dubbing of African Queen into Spanish is one of the best.
posted by Wilder at 5:43 AM on January 17, 2010
As misozaki said, there's only a limited amount of time allowed for each set of subtitles (usually no more than two lines at a go for Japanese subtitles), and they need to be easy enough to read through quickly, so difficult kanji might be dropped, needing more characters to be used for the phonetic language.
Another key difference is humor. Comedies often have (especially in Japanese) radically different subtitles than the original script. Partly it's due to speed, or difficulty in concise translation. More common, though, are altering jokes that have to do with language (puns, especially) or popular culture, which isn't always universal. If you want to see a movie with Japanese subtitles that bear no relation, try watching South Park, the Movie with Japanese subtitles. The subtitles rarely match what's being said in the film. Honestly, the better my reading in Japanese gets, the more often I find myself checking the subs, and I find a lot of errors.
On the other hand, going from Japanese to English, I've noticed (in dubbing) scenes where extra English is inserted, most specifically My Neighbor Totoro. In the dubbed version, the voice actor would occasionally have lines even after the character had ceased speaking, and was even off screen. The extra lines were used to convey points that, as part of Japanese culture, were assumed as common knowledge for the Japanese audience. And if you've ever had the misfortune to watch dubbed Totoro, no, the Cat bus doesn't speak. Seriously.
posted by Ghidorah at 6:30 AM on January 17, 2010
Another key difference is humor. Comedies often have (especially in Japanese) radically different subtitles than the original script. Partly it's due to speed, or difficulty in concise translation. More common, though, are altering jokes that have to do with language (puns, especially) or popular culture, which isn't always universal. If you want to see a movie with Japanese subtitles that bear no relation, try watching South Park, the Movie with Japanese subtitles. The subtitles rarely match what's being said in the film. Honestly, the better my reading in Japanese gets, the more often I find myself checking the subs, and I find a lot of errors.
On the other hand, going from Japanese to English, I've noticed (in dubbing) scenes where extra English is inserted, most specifically My Neighbor Totoro. In the dubbed version, the voice actor would occasionally have lines even after the character had ceased speaking, and was even off screen. The extra lines were used to convey points that, as part of Japanese culture, were assumed as common knowledge for the Japanese audience. And if you've ever had the misfortune to watch dubbed Totoro, no, the Cat bus doesn't speak. Seriously.
posted by Ghidorah at 6:30 AM on January 17, 2010
If you think the subtitles are bad, try turning on the captions. (Ok, the captions aren't always terrible, but sometimes you'd think they were transcribed by a six year old.)
If the show is live, people are typing those on the fly. You try doing that flawlessly.
posted by Zambrano at 8:38 AM on January 17, 2010
If the show is live, people are typing those on the fly. You try doing that flawlessly.
posted by Zambrano at 8:38 AM on January 17, 2010
My Corporate Planning & Administration Division team is collecting information regarding the reorganization of the automotive industry to prepare for the upcoming liberalization of the capital market.
misozaki, can you please tell us what movie or DVD this is for? (or at least send me a MeFi mail?)
Reading a line like that, I just *have* to see it ... :)
posted by thermonuclear.jive.turkey at 9:41 AM on January 17, 2010
misozaki, can you please tell us what movie or DVD this is for? (or at least send me a MeFi mail?)
Reading a line like that, I just *have* to see it ... :)
posted by thermonuclear.jive.turkey at 9:41 AM on January 17, 2010
Oh, and one more comment: When watching Miyazaki's 'Castle in the Sky' on DVD, which was dubbed by Disney, there's a scene where one of the main characters, the boy Pazu, is in a moment of peril and is at risk of falling to his death. The girl Sheeta is watching this, and is praying in desperation, her hands tightly folded. She speaks - "Please, God!" read the subtitles. In the dub, she says nothing.
posted by thermonuclear.jive.turkey at 9:47 AM on January 17, 2010
posted by thermonuclear.jive.turkey at 9:47 AM on January 17, 2010
Response by poster: Thanks, everyone. Now I know, and oh @nadawi -- doy.
posted by bunny hugger at 5:35 PM on January 17, 2010
posted by bunny hugger at 5:35 PM on January 17, 2010
Interesting to know that Guillermo Del Toro did the subtitles for Pan's Labyrinth himself - that's the movie I always thinks about with respect to subtitle inaccuracies/changes. The Faun's Spanish dialect is completely different from all the other characters - he's using an archaic (well, except for Argentina) verb conjugation (voseo), a fact I only picked up on about halfway through the movie, because it's not at all indicated in the subtitles.
I suppose it's because archaicisms would be even harder to read onscreen, but I thought it was a loss for the English version. (What happens in subtitled Shakespeare adaptations??)
posted by heyforfour at 6:19 AM on January 18, 2010
I suppose it's because archaicisms would be even harder to read onscreen, but I thought it was a loss for the English version. (What happens in subtitled Shakespeare adaptations??)
posted by heyforfour at 6:19 AM on January 18, 2010
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