Good careers for older folks?
December 19, 2009 12:05 PM Subscribe
What careers are available and viable for people over 50?
I am trying to prepare now for the inevitable.
I will be 42 in January and I don't look my age yet (granted, 42 isn't that old). I keep wondering and waiting for the age discrimination to start, but it hasn't yet because people guess my age as 35-ish or younger so far.
I am a software developer/programmer, female. I am not management material.
I have looked into careers in accounting and finance, and law because these are the only jobs I have personally seen where age is considered a good thing. I have gone so far as to take courses but I am not good at these subjects and don't have any love for them.
What other careers or jobs can I prepare for that are less likely to be concerned about me being over 50? I am not married, no kids, and I will have to support myself until I'm pretty much six feet under.
I am trying to prepare now for the inevitable.
I will be 42 in January and I don't look my age yet (granted, 42 isn't that old). I keep wondering and waiting for the age discrimination to start, but it hasn't yet because people guess my age as 35-ish or younger so far.
I am a software developer/programmer, female. I am not management material.
I have looked into careers in accounting and finance, and law because these are the only jobs I have personally seen where age is considered a good thing. I have gone so far as to take courses but I am not good at these subjects and don't have any love for them.
What other careers or jobs can I prepare for that are less likely to be concerned about me being over 50? I am not married, no kids, and I will have to support myself until I'm pretty much six feet under.
Response by poster: Hi ocherdraco.
I have a dreadful feeling that age discrimination is a real phenomena. I have the feeling that no matter what I do, once I start to look my age, I will not be able to find new jobs.
Whether or not this is real or imagined, I still feel I should prepare for the possibility.
posted by sharkfish at 12:36 PM on December 19, 2009
I have a dreadful feeling that age discrimination is a real phenomena. I have the feeling that no matter what I do, once I start to look my age, I will not be able to find new jobs.
Whether or not this is real or imagined, I still feel I should prepare for the possibility.
posted by sharkfish at 12:36 PM on December 19, 2009
I still have the same question as ocherdraco - do you anticipate losing your current job? If you fear you'll lose your job because of your age, you should know that's quite illegal in the US (don't know where you are), and there would probably be legal recourse if you think someone fired you because you were too old.
In any case, here's a long list of resources regarding careers for people over 50. It's from the AARP (again, don't know where you're from, but it may be helpful).
One more note - you sound very down, like you're absorbed by thoughts of catastrophic events that haven't happened yet. There's certainly nothing wrong with planning ahead, but that sounds a bit like depression, if I may diagnose you based on a typed paragraph on the internet. Either way, if you aren't already, you might consider talking to someone, either to see if you might benefit from treatment, or just to talk about your worries - that can help.
Good luck.
posted by Salvor Hardin at 12:47 PM on December 19, 2009
In any case, here's a long list of resources regarding careers for people over 50. It's from the AARP (again, don't know where you're from, but it may be helpful).
One more note - you sound very down, like you're absorbed by thoughts of catastrophic events that haven't happened yet. There's certainly nothing wrong with planning ahead, but that sounds a bit like depression, if I may diagnose you based on a typed paragraph on the internet. Either way, if you aren't already, you might consider talking to someone, either to see if you might benefit from treatment, or just to talk about your worries - that can help.
Good luck.
posted by Salvor Hardin at 12:47 PM on December 19, 2009
Meanwhile, to answer your question, real estate is a profession where it doesn't hurt to look like you have been around the block a few times.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 12:49 PM on December 19, 2009
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 12:49 PM on December 19, 2009
Another thing - I agree that age discrimination exists, but don't forget that there are advantages that come with age. Many employers will see you as more experienced, more responsible, and less likely to have massive life changes that will result in lost productivity.
posted by Salvor Hardin at 12:50 PM on December 19, 2009
posted by Salvor Hardin at 12:50 PM on December 19, 2009
Are you freelance? If that's part of why you're worried, then perhaps part of the solution is to look for permanent positions in your current field. Sure, there may be less age discrimination in some fields than others, but I think you're likely to lose as much as you gain by switching fields just for that reason. You've built up expertise in your current profession that you won't have elsewhere.
It seems like you're trying to head off a problem (which, in the end, might not happen) before you can know enough about the situation you anticipate to actually make a good plan. It's probably impossible to know what the level of age discrimination in your field (or any other) will be eight years from now.
At this stage, it might make more sense to reframe your approach to this worry. Right now, you're trying to adjust to outside factors that you can neither control nor anticipate. Perhaps, instead of looking externally, you might ask yourself questions like these:
posted by ocherdraco at 1:12 PM on December 19, 2009
It seems like you're trying to head off a problem (which, in the end, might not happen) before you can know enough about the situation you anticipate to actually make a good plan. It's probably impossible to know what the level of age discrimination in your field (or any other) will be eight years from now.
At this stage, it might make more sense to reframe your approach to this worry. Right now, you're trying to adjust to outside factors that you can neither control nor anticipate. Perhaps, instead of looking externally, you might ask yourself questions like these:
- What kind of job do you want yourself to have in eight years?
- Do you want: a stable position, a comfortable salary, continuity in your line of work?
- What aspects of a job are most important to you?
- Can you get a job with those things in your current line of work?
- What is the path from your current job to one that meets those criteria?
- What do you need to do now to start you on that path?
posted by ocherdraco at 1:12 PM on December 19, 2009
Sharkfish's underlying fear is real and justified: age discrimination happens in the US. Just because it is "illegal" doesn't prevent an employer from terminating an older worker or from refusing to hire an older worker. Asserting "that's quite illegal in the US (don't know where you are), and there would probably be legal recourse if you think someone fired you because you were too old" really isn't helpful here. Legal recourse would be very expensive and, ultimately, may have a bad or null outcome, even if the worker has proof positive that the employer's motivating factor was the worker's age.
Many employers ignore the benefits that older workers bring to the workplace (from what I've seen, software companies are the worst about ignoring the benefits of older workers and about ignoring the risks of illegal discrimination). Could we just focus on answering the OP's question and not lecture her about the legality/illegality of age discrimination?
posted by LOLAttorney2009 at 1:19 PM on December 19, 2009 [7 favorites]
Many employers ignore the benefits that older workers bring to the workplace (from what I've seen, software companies are the worst about ignoring the benefits of older workers and about ignoring the risks of illegal discrimination). Could we just focus on answering the OP's question and not lecture her about the legality/illegality of age discrimination?
posted by LOLAttorney2009 at 1:19 PM on December 19, 2009 [7 favorites]
I'd like to put a vote in for administrative work in a University or hospital setting. Every department usually has at least one administrative coordinator, who needs to be very detail oriented and organized. There are also the admission offices, etc, who all need staff of this nature. In my experience, age is generally not something selected against when hiring, and being female seems to be preferred.
posted by strixus at 1:46 PM on December 19, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by strixus at 1:46 PM on December 19, 2009 [1 favorite]
If you're willing to put some time and money into going back to school, then I would suggest looking into getting an MLS. I went back to school at 41, interested in becoming an archivist, because I would be able to use some of the same skills that I'd developed working in an art museum. When I interviewed at one of the prospective schools, I specifically expressed my concern that I was worried about "aging out" and was assured that there were a lot of people my age and older just starting out as well as people who started in their 20s and worked well into their 60s. My MLS program skewered a little younger than I had thought that it would, but there were people ranging from 22 - mid-50s. Most of the other people over 40 were transitioning from the IT fields. As the field is quickly becoming more and more enmeshed with technology (hence the change from "library schools" to "i"(information) schools") and this put them several steps ahead of the younger students, most of whom had humanities backgrounds and were surprisingly not as technically proficient as you'd expect of people who've literally grown up with computers.
There are a lot of ways that you can go with a strong IT background and a MLS; digital archivist; metadata specialist; working with electronic records; researching resource delivery; or working as a librarian with a strong specialization in computer sciences.
You will see in Askmefi and other places that there is a no shortage of people with MLS degrees and that many are now finding it difficult to find jobs. Do your research, but I contend that most of those people have humanities backgrounds and are more interested in finding more traditional librarian jobs. I think that if your open to things like electronic records management or working in a science library, you're background and work experience will give you a huge leg up. Feel free to memail me if you want more specific info.
posted by kaybdc at 2:00 PM on December 19, 2009 [1 favorite]
There are a lot of ways that you can go with a strong IT background and a MLS; digital archivist; metadata specialist; working with electronic records; researching resource delivery; or working as a librarian with a strong specialization in computer sciences.
You will see in Askmefi and other places that there is a no shortage of people with MLS degrees and that many are now finding it difficult to find jobs. Do your research, but I contend that most of those people have humanities backgrounds and are more interested in finding more traditional librarian jobs. I think that if your open to things like electronic records management or working in a science library, you're background and work experience will give you a huge leg up. Feel free to memail me if you want more specific info.
posted by kaybdc at 2:00 PM on December 19, 2009 [1 favorite]
What makes you think you aren't management material? If that's just not something you're into, fine, but try this handy quiz:
1) Are you the Dark Lord Satan himself?
If you answered "no," you are already ahead of about half the managers I have had as a software developer. Seriously, the bar for interpersonal skills is staggeringly low. If you know code and communicate with other humans on the most basic level, you can manage developers. At least, you can get a "lead" job that is half programming, half management.
I think the main reason people hesitate to hire older developers is this: developers get paid a lot. A lot of people want to cut corners by hiring kids out of college, rather than someone with experience. So at some point people do need to transition into a role with more responsibility, to justify the higher salary. However, as others have said, it all depends on your situation. If you have a job now, especially at a big company, you may well be able to keep programming there until retirement. Stranger things have happened.
posted by drjimmy11 at 2:03 PM on December 19, 2009 [4 favorites]
1) Are you the Dark Lord Satan himself?
If you answered "no," you are already ahead of about half the managers I have had as a software developer. Seriously, the bar for interpersonal skills is staggeringly low. If you know code and communicate with other humans on the most basic level, you can manage developers. At least, you can get a "lead" job that is half programming, half management.
I think the main reason people hesitate to hire older developers is this: developers get paid a lot. A lot of people want to cut corners by hiring kids out of college, rather than someone with experience. So at some point people do need to transition into a role with more responsibility, to justify the higher salary. However, as others have said, it all depends on your situation. If you have a job now, especially at a big company, you may well be able to keep programming there until retirement. Stranger things have happened.
posted by drjimmy11 at 2:03 PM on December 19, 2009 [4 favorites]
But: Don't let fear of age discrimination run your life. Let's face it, anyone can lose any job at any time for any reason. Software is a field where there are always jobs- even if you lost one because of your age, you would find another. I think sticking with programming is a much safer plan, frankly, than starting a new career from scratch, if the only consideration is money and security.
However, the real question is: what do you want to do? At the risk of sounding simplistic, figure that out, then do that.
posted by drjimmy11 at 2:07 PM on December 19, 2009
However, the real question is: what do you want to do? At the risk of sounding simplistic, figure that out, then do that.
posted by drjimmy11 at 2:07 PM on December 19, 2009
Are you interested in teaching in your area of expertise? At the post-sec institution where I work, the majority of faculty and administration are older than you are. I am in my mid-30s and am "one of the youngsters."
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 2:16 PM on December 19, 2009
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 2:16 PM on December 19, 2009
I realize that here on AskMe, the default piece of advice to be given (when there's no significant other to dump) is therapy, but age discrimination in the software industry is certainly a real enough phenomenon, and we can hardly use wanting to plan for it as the basis for a psychological diagnosis.
OP, depending on the type of software you develop, one move you could make might be to consulting. Businesses spend immense amounts of money on very complicated pieces of software, and they often don't have the right skills among their own staff to implement, optimize and get value for money from the software they purchase. Somebody with a background as a developer can be ideal for work like that. Of course, age discrimination exists there too, but there's a lot of opportunity to work independently, and often when companies hire consultants, they want somebody with deep expertise in a certain subject, and so a lot of experience can be a plus.
It might be a little too close to being in management for your taste (certainly project management skills in particular would be valuable), and the travel can get pretty grueling, but it's something to consider.
posted by strangely stunted trees at 2:22 PM on December 19, 2009
OP, depending on the type of software you develop, one move you could make might be to consulting. Businesses spend immense amounts of money on very complicated pieces of software, and they often don't have the right skills among their own staff to implement, optimize and get value for money from the software they purchase. Somebody with a background as a developer can be ideal for work like that. Of course, age discrimination exists there too, but there's a lot of opportunity to work independently, and often when companies hire consultants, they want somebody with deep expertise in a certain subject, and so a lot of experience can be a plus.
It might be a little too close to being in management for your taste (certainly project management skills in particular would be valuable), and the travel can get pretty grueling, but it's something to consider.
posted by strangely stunted trees at 2:22 PM on December 19, 2009
I know of programmers who have retired from working at a university. Yes, we had a 50something programmer who still comes in once a week now that he's retired, so his age isn't a factor. And yes, older women there are treasured. The more university experience you have, the better! So I would agree with those points.
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:55 PM on December 19, 2009
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:55 PM on December 19, 2009
I'd like to put a vote in for administrative work in a University or hospital setting.
I spent several years doing this in my 20s. It pays poorly and is low status. Definitely a step down from programmer/developer. I agree that hospitals and universities tend to be less age-conscious, but I would be looking at IT roles in those institutions.
posted by jeoc at 4:42 PM on December 19, 2009 [1 favorite]
I spent several years doing this in my 20s. It pays poorly and is low status. Definitely a step down from programmer/developer. I agree that hospitals and universities tend to be less age-conscious, but I would be looking at IT roles in those institutions.
posted by jeoc at 4:42 PM on December 19, 2009 [1 favorite]
I have a dreadful feeling that age discrimination is a real phenomena.
There is a great deal of age discrimination in the SW industry, but there is (at the same time) a severe experience deficit among younger employees. It is simply a fact that the last 10 years have not had nearly as many cut-your-teeth-and-become-a-real-engineer opportunities that 1990-2000 had, let alone 1980-1990. In a lot of ways, the industry is failing younger engineers of all kinds (both SW and HW).
There have been very few engineering-intensive, cutting-edge projects in the last 10 years of the type that really take a journeyman engineer and make them into an expert.
So .. one side effect of this is that the experienced oldies, if they were doing the right kind of work, have experiences of the sort that are simultaneously highly valuable and also increasingly rare among practicing engineers.
Assuming you have a good network, IMHO, these skills are valued by startups more than masses-of-asses larger companies.
Please PM me if you want to talk career specifics.
posted by rr at 4:44 PM on December 19, 2009
There is a great deal of age discrimination in the SW industry, but there is (at the same time) a severe experience deficit among younger employees. It is simply a fact that the last 10 years have not had nearly as many cut-your-teeth-and-become-a-real-engineer opportunities that 1990-2000 had, let alone 1980-1990. In a lot of ways, the industry is failing younger engineers of all kinds (both SW and HW).
There have been very few engineering-intensive, cutting-edge projects in the last 10 years of the type that really take a journeyman engineer and make them into an expert.
So .. one side effect of this is that the experienced oldies, if they were doing the right kind of work, have experiences of the sort that are simultaneously highly valuable and also increasingly rare among practicing engineers.
Assuming you have a good network, IMHO, these skills are valued by startups more than masses-of-asses larger companies.
Please PM me if you want to talk career specifics.
posted by rr at 4:44 PM on December 19, 2009
There are a lot of ways that you can go with a strong IT background and a MLS; digital archivist; metadata specialist; working with electronic records; researching resource delivery; or working as a librarian with a strong specialization in computer sciences.
You guys.. a professional developer who is fearing age discrimination has very likely spent the last 15 to 20 years making well over $150k (at least for the last few years).
The right answer to these concerns is not to argue the management material question -- even if you are going to ignore the statement by the OP, if you're old, becoming a middle manager is terrible advice. 42 is too old to climb to the necessary level (sr. director and above, climbing to VP is something you do in your thirties, not something you start on in your 40s) and the middle layers are not a good place to be -- very few companies are interested in hiring 1st and 2nd level managers in our current or near term environment.
OP, is your goal to get out of development? Or is your primary goal to get another 10-15 years out of your career to be able to support yourself?
Either is fine, really, but the advice really depends on the pressing need. Where are you located? What industry?
posted by rr at 4:52 PM on December 19, 2009
If you fear you'll lose your job because of your age, you should know that's quite illegal in the US
And?
Look, place I work, they just laid off several hundred people for no reason other than boosting the bottom line (IT jobs to India- what a cliche). A bunch of those people were over fifty. The company was required to list the positions and the ages of everyone involved both to everyone involved and to the EEOC, but that didn't stop them from firing.
Among the IT folk I know leaving, risk management was discussed a lot as an option. No idea why other than, no doubt, recent bad behavior by corporate types, but apparently something to look into. Good luck, in any event.
posted by IndigoJones at 4:54 PM on December 19, 2009
And?
Look, place I work, they just laid off several hundred people for no reason other than boosting the bottom line (IT jobs to India- what a cliche). A bunch of those people were over fifty. The company was required to list the positions and the ages of everyone involved both to everyone involved and to the EEOC, but that didn't stop them from firing.
Among the IT folk I know leaving, risk management was discussed a lot as an option. No idea why other than, no doubt, recent bad behavior by corporate types, but apparently something to look into. Good luck, in any event.
posted by IndigoJones at 4:54 PM on December 19, 2009
Response by poster: Yes, it is true that age discrimination is illegal. That doesn't mean I want to go through legal means to deal with it. I am not the type to sue. I'm more of the type to anticipate and find ways around the issue, beforehand.
I'm not depressed or down. I am quite happy with my current position as a team developer. Becoming a project lead seems to be a possibility but still doesn't shield me from age discrimination.
I think a lot of us stay in denial through our forties and wait for it to happen rather than being proactive, as evidenced by some responses (nothing wrong with not allowing yourself to go down the negative road...that's just not how I manage my life and that works for me).
I am open to going back to school or changing careers but I would rather stay in software development. Right now I do C++ work for a small firm that develops APIs for other software companies to use. It is good, interesting work. I also have C# and lots and lots of web development background. I am not a specialist, but I also haven't allowed myself to get stuck in old technologies, either.
I'm in the Midwest U.S. I make pretty good money (not quite six figures, but not very far).
I wonder if between now and my 50's, I should develop a specialty domain area and try to build a consultancy on that? I have strongly considered getting a master's degree in computer science and develop a focus on a field in demand--start publishing articles and papers and sell myself as a consultant. Is this something older people can do to market their age and experience effectively?
posted by sharkfish at 5:11 PM on December 19, 2009
I'm not depressed or down. I am quite happy with my current position as a team developer. Becoming a project lead seems to be a possibility but still doesn't shield me from age discrimination.
I think a lot of us stay in denial through our forties and wait for it to happen rather than being proactive, as evidenced by some responses (nothing wrong with not allowing yourself to go down the negative road...that's just not how I manage my life and that works for me).
I am open to going back to school or changing careers but I would rather stay in software development. Right now I do C++ work for a small firm that develops APIs for other software companies to use. It is good, interesting work. I also have C# and lots and lots of web development background. I am not a specialist, but I also haven't allowed myself to get stuck in old technologies, either.
I'm in the Midwest U.S. I make pretty good money (not quite six figures, but not very far).
I wonder if between now and my 50's, I should develop a specialty domain area and try to build a consultancy on that? I have strongly considered getting a master's degree in computer science and develop a focus on a field in demand--start publishing articles and papers and sell myself as a consultant. Is this something older people can do to market their age and experience effectively?
posted by sharkfish at 5:11 PM on December 19, 2009
You guys.. a professional developer who is fearing age discrimination has very likely spent the last 15 to 20 years making well over $150k (at least for the last few years).
Fair enough, and since the OP answered it's probably moot, but that fact alone doesn't preclude moving into a less financially rewarding field. Like I said, most of the over 40s in my MLS program were coming out of high paying (although maybe not 6 figure) IT careers. They wanted a change and the fact that they had made a lot of money when they were younger allowed them the freedom to pursue a less lucrative career. Plus not all of the occupations that I listed are that low paying. Records managers, particularly those working with electronic records (and there are i-schools that offer specializations in archives and records management) can bring in a 6 figure salary (albeit low 6 figures).
posted by kaybdc at 5:47 PM on December 19, 2009
Fair enough, and since the OP answered it's probably moot, but that fact alone doesn't preclude moving into a less financially rewarding field. Like I said, most of the over 40s in my MLS program were coming out of high paying (although maybe not 6 figure) IT careers. They wanted a change and the fact that they had made a lot of money when they were younger allowed them the freedom to pursue a less lucrative career. Plus not all of the occupations that I listed are that low paying. Records managers, particularly those working with electronic records (and there are i-schools that offer specializations in archives and records management) can bring in a 6 figure salary (albeit low 6 figures).
posted by kaybdc at 5:47 PM on December 19, 2009
1) Are you the Dark Lord Satan himself?
If you answered "no," you are already ahead of about half the managers I have had as a software developer.
Well, yeah, a developer would think that. But, in fact, Satan has the skills upper management admires most. Perhaps, the OP knows this when she says she's not management material. Neither was I management material only I assumed it was because something was wrong with me. Satan never thinks something's wrong with him.
Here's why it's difficult (though not impossible) for the aged to get development work.
1) Young people work for less money. They need less money and they haven't received raises over the years that they've grown accustom to. And employers need not match large salaries they were receiving on previous jobs.
2) The development culture is young. Old people coming in for interviews get asked questions by the young, who feel weird interviewing people their parents age. They use different slang, know different music. It just doesn't feel like someone you'd be comfortable working with.
3) Their experience is with obsolete technology. They programmed in Pascal, used IBM JCL.
They know Motorola 68000 assembler or bisync telecommunications protocols. They optimized for avoiding the use of expensive resources that are cheap now. They once believed no one would need more than 256K of memory. They don't see the latest programming methodology as an all time solution but just as what people are using now.
4) Their young competition has learned the latest technologies in school and can "hit the ground running" while an experienced geezer would need to be trained in it.
5) They aren't seen as someone who can grow with the company. When asked, "Where do you see yourself in 5 years?" they might answer "retired."
here on AskMe, the default piece of advice to be given is therapy,
        and
There's certainly nothing wrong with planning ahead, but that sounds a bit like depression, if I may diagnose you based on a typed paragraph on the internet.
Therapy, on the giving end, is one field where age and experience are valued. I am a therapist now, but I once was a software developer. I coded with and, yes, managed a team of operating systems developers working on hardware that was new and state of the art. I also worked on compiler development for (different) new hardware. I didn't plan ahead because I knew I would always be employable. I was doing the fancy coding--not maintenance work. Well, that's not how it turned out. The OP is smarter than I had been for looking ahead now.
Oddly, one of my programming projects involved a web based tool for evaluation of employment discrimination. Age discrimination, it turns out, is very difficult to prove. You need to show that someone with your same skill level, though younger, was hired for the same job while you were not.
Teaching is another field where age is valued. Being able to teach computer science and having industry experience is a valuable combination of skills. Tutoring can also be good, though the more lucrative tutoring jobs seem to go to those who are younger because they are more familiar with the current examinations.
posted by Obscure Reference at 6:02 PM on December 19, 2009
If you answered "no," you are already ahead of about half the managers I have had as a software developer.
Well, yeah, a developer would think that. But, in fact, Satan has the skills upper management admires most. Perhaps, the OP knows this when she says she's not management material. Neither was I management material only I assumed it was because something was wrong with me. Satan never thinks something's wrong with him.
Here's why it's difficult (though not impossible) for the aged to get development work.
1) Young people work for less money. They need less money and they haven't received raises over the years that they've grown accustom to. And employers need not match large salaries they were receiving on previous jobs.
2) The development culture is young. Old people coming in for interviews get asked questions by the young, who feel weird interviewing people their parents age. They use different slang, know different music. It just doesn't feel like someone you'd be comfortable working with.
3) Their experience is with obsolete technology. They programmed in Pascal, used IBM JCL.
They know Motorola 68000 assembler or bisync telecommunications protocols. They optimized for avoiding the use of expensive resources that are cheap now. They once believed no one would need more than 256K of memory. They don't see the latest programming methodology as an all time solution but just as what people are using now.
4) Their young competition has learned the latest technologies in school and can "hit the ground running" while an experienced geezer would need to be trained in it.
5) They aren't seen as someone who can grow with the company. When asked, "Where do you see yourself in 5 years?" they might answer "retired."
here on AskMe, the default piece of advice to be given is therapy,
        and
There's certainly nothing wrong with planning ahead, but that sounds a bit like depression, if I may diagnose you based on a typed paragraph on the internet.
Therapy, on the giving end, is one field where age and experience are valued. I am a therapist now, but I once was a software developer. I coded with and, yes, managed a team of operating systems developers working on hardware that was new and state of the art. I also worked on compiler development for (different) new hardware. I didn't plan ahead because I knew I would always be employable. I was doing the fancy coding--not maintenance work. Well, that's not how it turned out. The OP is smarter than I had been for looking ahead now.
Oddly, one of my programming projects involved a web based tool for evaluation of employment discrimination. Age discrimination, it turns out, is very difficult to prove. You need to show that someone with your same skill level, though younger, was hired for the same job while you were not.
Teaching is another field where age is valued. Being able to teach computer science and having industry experience is a valuable combination of skills. Tutoring can also be good, though the more lucrative tutoring jobs seem to go to those who are younger because they are more familiar with the current examinations.
posted by Obscure Reference at 6:02 PM on December 19, 2009
I guess   doesn't work in this interface though looked fine in the live preview.
posted by Obscure Reference at 6:04 PM on December 19, 2009
posted by Obscure Reference at 6:04 PM on December 19, 2009
Response by poster: Obscure Reference:
On your points 3 and 4, I have a tendency to move jobs if I smell obsolescence, and I'm always taking a class here and there or maintaining my own projects in new tech, so I am hoping technical skillset obsolescence won't be the issue.
How did you get into therapy as a career? What additional degrees did you have to earn?
Isn't there a glut of therapists? Are you running your own business?
posted by sharkfish at 6:34 PM on December 19, 2009
On your points 3 and 4, I have a tendency to move jobs if I smell obsolescence, and I'm always taking a class here and there or maintaining my own projects in new tech, so I am hoping technical skillset obsolescence won't be the issue.
How did you get into therapy as a career? What additional degrees did you have to earn?
Isn't there a glut of therapists? Are you running your own business?
posted by sharkfish at 6:34 PM on December 19, 2009
Librarian and work for a university or college. Try to find a place that classifies librarians as faculty, since you will be able to get tenure. Also a unionized shop is better than not unionized one.
Librarians need computer skills; systems librarians need developer/programming skills. University libraries really need systems librarians. There is very little age or gender discrimination. All in all, a great job with security, good pay, and benefits. Working in an academic environment is fun. Did I mention TENURE??? That is a major perk.
As for getting the degree, it is pretty easy and can be done part time.
As you can probably tell I am a unionized tenured university librarian. I am a 52-year-old woman and I do not experience age or gender discrimination. Most of our faculty are my age or older, in fact our oldest faculty member just retired. She is 85. I work with women between the ages of 42 to 75.
Being an older woman in this profession is not a problem, since it is still seen as a older woman's profession (which is really not true, but the stereotype still abounds).
posted by fifilaru at 9:33 PM on December 19, 2009
Librarians need computer skills; systems librarians need developer/programming skills. University libraries really need systems librarians. There is very little age or gender discrimination. All in all, a great job with security, good pay, and benefits. Working in an academic environment is fun. Did I mention TENURE??? That is a major perk.
As for getting the degree, it is pretty easy and can be done part time.
As you can probably tell I am a unionized tenured university librarian. I am a 52-year-old woman and I do not experience age or gender discrimination. Most of our faculty are my age or older, in fact our oldest faculty member just retired. She is 85. I work with women between the ages of 42 to 75.
Being an older woman in this profession is not a problem, since it is still seen as a older woman's profession (which is really not true, but the stereotype still abounds).
posted by fifilaru at 9:33 PM on December 19, 2009
sharkfish, the tech industry's definitely prone to strong ageism and even stronger sexism. You've probably already got really good chops for dealing with those realities, especially since this question demonstrates you've got a knack for anticipating what troubles might arise in the future.
That being said, the best strategy long-term may be to become a world-class expert in a specialized area. For example, C# and C++ development for most applications have become something of a commodity market. That's not to denigrate at all your skills — I wish I had them! But I also know when I was visiting family in India earlier this year, every public space I saw in India was advertising C# training, and even if they're not as skilled, they are gonna be 10x cheaper. That's not a game any of us can win and maintain a great lifestyle.
Instead, you've already got a willingness to learn new skills and continue your education; You should exploit that. I don't think a master's degree is going to earn you any more career certainty than you already have, but I look at folks working on cutting-edge web tech (the area I know best, but there are certainly parallel opportunities in other areas of programming) and once you get good enough at an in-demand technology, clients or employers won't care if you have 11 legs and green skin, they'll keep you around.
These days, I see huge opportunities around realtime web technologies (not realtime as in sub-millisecond systems work, but sub-one second messaging system), integration of web engineering with operations and systems management, programming for virtualized environments and cloud environments, and a huge opportunity around taking your current familiarity with APIs and focusing it more closely on scripting languages that are booming in popularity, instead of the relatively more stagnant traditional compiled languages.
You've got the right strategy, but I might modulate the tactics a bit. "I wonder if between now and my 50's, I should develop a specialty domain area and try to build a consultancy on that?" Absolutely hell yes. "I have strongly considered getting a master's degree in computer science and develop a focus on a field in demand--start publishing articles and papers and sell myself as a consultant. Is this something older people can do to market their age and experience effectively?" This is definitely the way to go, but the suggestion of "start publishing articles nad papers" or seeking a new degree is telling — those are indicators of a mindset that's totally understandable and appropriate, but might be a signifier to those who are looking to discriminate that you're not part of their newer tech culture.
Instead, I'd suggest skipping the degree, as I mentioned, and instead documenting demonstrations of your proficiency with popular modern web systems and APIs, perhaps on a blog or even as a guest-poster on existing popular technical blogs. If you have the ability to communicate your skills with these tools (you've obviously a good writer, as shown in this thread), you'll become a defacto leader on whatever your area of specialization is. Stating it more broadly, you should think to demonstrate your mastery of and authority on your particular niche not through validation from outside authorities like a university that grants degrees or a publication that would vet your papers, but through doing. I don't say this as just some "OMG those stodgy old institutions suck!" thing, but more as a practical way of demonstrating you get current tech industry culture and are still native to it and an active particpant in it.
You'll also likely have to work to actively cultivate relationships to promote your work with the new technologies you focus on, regardless of what they may be. If you were to become a "coding for cloud computing APIs expert" (just to pick a topic out of a hat), you'd want to reach out to whomever is a leading voice about Google's AppEngine and Microsoft's Azure and Amazon's EC2, and share your findings or code or writings with them. Not to be presumptuous or offensively stereotypical, but for most good coders I've known, getting outside of the comfort zone to make those social connections with influential or thoughtful peers in the industry may well be the most challenging skills upgrade you'll have to embrace as part of keeping your career relevant and vibrant.
I wish you great luck with this, and I hope you won't give up on being a coder despite the way our industry treats women and adults. My contact info's in my profile if I can offer any other useful feedback.
posted by anildash at 12:17 AM on December 20, 2009 [2 favorites]
That being said, the best strategy long-term may be to become a world-class expert in a specialized area. For example, C# and C++ development for most applications have become something of a commodity market. That's not to denigrate at all your skills — I wish I had them! But I also know when I was visiting family in India earlier this year, every public space I saw in India was advertising C# training, and even if they're not as skilled, they are gonna be 10x cheaper. That's not a game any of us can win and maintain a great lifestyle.
Instead, you've already got a willingness to learn new skills and continue your education; You should exploit that. I don't think a master's degree is going to earn you any more career certainty than you already have, but I look at folks working on cutting-edge web tech (the area I know best, but there are certainly parallel opportunities in other areas of programming) and once you get good enough at an in-demand technology, clients or employers won't care if you have 11 legs and green skin, they'll keep you around.
These days, I see huge opportunities around realtime web technologies (not realtime as in sub-millisecond systems work, but sub-one second messaging system), integration of web engineering with operations and systems management, programming for virtualized environments and cloud environments, and a huge opportunity around taking your current familiarity with APIs and focusing it more closely on scripting languages that are booming in popularity, instead of the relatively more stagnant traditional compiled languages.
You've got the right strategy, but I might modulate the tactics a bit. "I wonder if between now and my 50's, I should develop a specialty domain area and try to build a consultancy on that?" Absolutely hell yes. "I have strongly considered getting a master's degree in computer science and develop a focus on a field in demand--start publishing articles and papers and sell myself as a consultant. Is this something older people can do to market their age and experience effectively?" This is definitely the way to go, but the suggestion of "start publishing articles nad papers" or seeking a new degree is telling — those are indicators of a mindset that's totally understandable and appropriate, but might be a signifier to those who are looking to discriminate that you're not part of their newer tech culture.
Instead, I'd suggest skipping the degree, as I mentioned, and instead documenting demonstrations of your proficiency with popular modern web systems and APIs, perhaps on a blog or even as a guest-poster on existing popular technical blogs. If you have the ability to communicate your skills with these tools (you've obviously a good writer, as shown in this thread), you'll become a defacto leader on whatever your area of specialization is. Stating it more broadly, you should think to demonstrate your mastery of and authority on your particular niche not through validation from outside authorities like a university that grants degrees or a publication that would vet your papers, but through doing. I don't say this as just some "OMG those stodgy old institutions suck!" thing, but more as a practical way of demonstrating you get current tech industry culture and are still native to it and an active particpant in it.
You'll also likely have to work to actively cultivate relationships to promote your work with the new technologies you focus on, regardless of what they may be. If you were to become a "coding for cloud computing APIs expert" (just to pick a topic out of a hat), you'd want to reach out to whomever is a leading voice about Google's AppEngine and Microsoft's Azure and Amazon's EC2, and share your findings or code or writings with them. Not to be presumptuous or offensively stereotypical, but for most good coders I've known, getting outside of the comfort zone to make those social connections with influential or thoughtful peers in the industry may well be the most challenging skills upgrade you'll have to embrace as part of keeping your career relevant and vibrant.
I wish you great luck with this, and I hope you won't give up on being a coder despite the way our industry treats women and adults. My contact info's in my profile if I can offer any other useful feedback.
posted by anildash at 12:17 AM on December 20, 2009 [2 favorites]
Here's the thing about programming: it's changed a lot over the last decade, and I'm not talking technologically. It's culturally a whole new beast.
10+ years ago a programmer solved technological challenges. They created algorithms. They debugged, read specifications, and probably programmed in c. It was a self-contained world. Maybe a couple vendor products, databases, operating systems. Programmers solved their own problems. There was no google, no twitter, no blog celebrities.
Today, programmers are ruled by a generation of re-tweeters that spout out latest fads and speak more like marketers and futurists than scientists. 80% of the programmers that I interview today can't solve simple problems, but boy can they talk a good game about social-networking, web 2.0, how to get angel funding. Recently I was on the other end of that interview table, and the questions I got from my 20-something interviewers floored me. Do they really care that I know obscure knowledge about the java vm? Who cares if I know about C# 4.0 language features?
So, rant aside, back to your issue. I'm a software development manager, and I care about one thing: getting high-quality, usable systems onto my stakeholders desktops (or mobile phones) as quickly as possible. Do you understand the complexities of concurrency? Can you meet deadlines? Can you work with a team? Do you really understand iterative development? Can you make the seemingly-impossible possible? If I give you hacked up, sloppy source code, can you navigate through it? Can you make recommendations for how to improve and maintain it? If I give you a paragraph of requirements, can you tell me 5 alternative ways to design a system that meets the requirements, along with trade-offs? Again, can you meet deadlines?
Maybe I'm an odd-ball, but I am not so concerned about age. I don't care if you know new web framework X, or new technology fad Y. Most of the time these frameworks are way harder to learn than just writing it straight on top the HTTP stack. I more care that you click with the team, that you can jump in and be productive on week one, that you don't complain about things not fitting into your Utopian fantasies of software development. I mean I love new technology as much as the next guy, but I'm old-school. I let the marketing department or the business development team decide on the features. I just want to hire people that can get stuff done. If you get stuff done, and really well, then keep with programming. You'll find jobs.
posted by TheOtherSide at 6:15 AM on December 20, 2009
10+ years ago a programmer solved technological challenges. They created algorithms. They debugged, read specifications, and probably programmed in c. It was a self-contained world. Maybe a couple vendor products, databases, operating systems. Programmers solved their own problems. There was no google, no twitter, no blog celebrities.
Today, programmers are ruled by a generation of re-tweeters that spout out latest fads and speak more like marketers and futurists than scientists. 80% of the programmers that I interview today can't solve simple problems, but boy can they talk a good game about social-networking, web 2.0, how to get angel funding. Recently I was on the other end of that interview table, and the questions I got from my 20-something interviewers floored me. Do they really care that I know obscure knowledge about the java vm? Who cares if I know about C# 4.0 language features?
So, rant aside, back to your issue. I'm a software development manager, and I care about one thing: getting high-quality, usable systems onto my stakeholders desktops (or mobile phones) as quickly as possible. Do you understand the complexities of concurrency? Can you meet deadlines? Can you work with a team? Do you really understand iterative development? Can you make the seemingly-impossible possible? If I give you hacked up, sloppy source code, can you navigate through it? Can you make recommendations for how to improve and maintain it? If I give you a paragraph of requirements, can you tell me 5 alternative ways to design a system that meets the requirements, along with trade-offs? Again, can you meet deadlines?
Maybe I'm an odd-ball, but I am not so concerned about age. I don't care if you know new web framework X, or new technology fad Y. Most of the time these frameworks are way harder to learn than just writing it straight on top the HTTP stack. I more care that you click with the team, that you can jump in and be productive on week one, that you don't complain about things not fitting into your Utopian fantasies of software development. I mean I love new technology as much as the next guy, but I'm old-school. I let the marketing department or the business development team decide on the features. I just want to hire people that can get stuff done. If you get stuff done, and really well, then keep with programming. You'll find jobs.
posted by TheOtherSide at 6:15 AM on December 20, 2009
C# and C++ development for most applications have become something of a commodity market.
But who knows what people will be using a few years down the line? Whenever a "new" technology is in vogue, it is treated as if it is an engineering advance and a skill you will always need. More often it a marketing triumph. Microsoft changed the names for everything an made people look at it their way. Keeping up becomes more difficult when you're no longer learning something inherently interesting and just learning the latest version which is now "hot."
How did you get into therapy as a career? What additional degrees did you have to earn?
Isn't there a glut of therapists? Are you running your own business?
I trained for 8+ years at an institute which is also my main source of referrals. It was always an interest of mine and began training almost as a lark, continuing to do software work to pay for it. Yes, it means running your own business, but it's not the kind of business which feels completely alien to someone who doesn't like being a manager. There's a glut in some areas/neighborhoods but not in others.
posted by Obscure Reference at 6:53 AM on December 20, 2009
But who knows what people will be using a few years down the line? Whenever a "new" technology is in vogue, it is treated as if it is an engineering advance and a skill you will always need. More often it a marketing triumph. Microsoft changed the names for everything an made people look at it their way. Keeping up becomes more difficult when you're no longer learning something inherently interesting and just learning the latest version which is now "hot."
How did you get into therapy as a career? What additional degrees did you have to earn?
Isn't there a glut of therapists? Are you running your own business?
I trained for 8+ years at an institute which is also my main source of referrals. It was always an interest of mine and began training almost as a lark, continuing to do software work to pay for it. Yes, it means running your own business, but it's not the kind of business which feels completely alien to someone who doesn't like being a manager. There's a glut in some areas/neighborhoods but not in others.
posted by Obscure Reference at 6:53 AM on December 20, 2009
Response by poster: I want to thank all of you for your thoughtful input. I don't know what the "best answer" is, and noone does (nor could you). Your posts gave me food for thought and I will do more research and diligence on this matter.
Regarding an MLS degree: I'm not sure what this entails but it seems to be a top suggestion for folks with my background so i will definitely look into it.
Staying in my field: Most likely the way I will go, given my time investment and my love of the field.
Becoming a therapist/psychologist: I'm going to give this one some serious thought. I definitely have the personality for it. I'm just not sure how dedicated I could become to the field even if it would leverage my "mature" outlook.
posted by sharkfish at 10:37 AM on December 21, 2009
Regarding an MLS degree: I'm not sure what this entails but it seems to be a top suggestion for folks with my background so i will definitely look into it.
Staying in my field: Most likely the way I will go, given my time investment and my love of the field.
Becoming a therapist/psychologist: I'm going to give this one some serious thought. I definitely have the personality for it. I'm just not sure how dedicated I could become to the field even if it would leverage my "mature" outlook.
posted by sharkfish at 10:37 AM on December 21, 2009
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by ocherdraco at 12:14 PM on December 19, 2009