Eye contact
December 16, 2009 10:33 AM Subscribe
Why do (American) women tend to avoid casual eye contact with men as they walk by, enter an elevator, etc... I know there is the obvious issue of not wanting to appear “interested” or send a sexual signal...but does that explain everything?
Please take a leap of faith and trust me when I say I ask ONLY from a sociological/ psychological perspective...and not from a “hey why won’t that chick look at me” point of view. I am happily married and not on the prowl! Just wonder what factors condition women to be this way. I mean, when two men walk past as strangers they commonly make eye contact and offer a quick greeting. In my experience, women rarely do the same.
Please take a leap of faith and trust me when I say I ask ONLY from a sociological/ psychological perspective...and not from a “hey why won’t that chick look at me” point of view. I am happily married and not on the prowl! Just wonder what factors condition women to be this way. I mean, when two men walk past as strangers they commonly make eye contact and offer a quick greeting. In my experience, women rarely do the same.
I know there is the obvious issue of not wanting to appear “interested” or send a sexual signal... but does that explain everything?
Yes. One too many run-ins with the guy who takes eye contact and the friendly head nod as an invitation to try to get your phone number and... well... just yes.
posted by WidgetAlley at 10:37 AM on December 16, 2009 [21 favorites]
Yes. One too many run-ins with the guy who takes eye contact and the friendly head nod as an invitation to try to get your phone number and... well... just yes.
posted by WidgetAlley at 10:37 AM on December 16, 2009 [21 favorites]
I am an American woman and I don't avoid eye contact with men in public places. Maybe it's just you.
posted by crush-onastick at 10:38 AM on December 16, 2009 [4 favorites]
posted by crush-onastick at 10:38 AM on December 16, 2009 [4 favorites]
I mean, when two men walk past as strangers they commonly make eye contact and offer a quick greeting.
um, where do you live? if men commonly did this in nyc (where i live), they would basically be greeting strangers all the damn time.
the problem with making casual eye contact with men, and this is not just an american woman thing, it happens everywhere. is that a lot of men take casual eye contact with a woman as an invitation to strike up a conversation. and then they get pissed and say nasty things when you shoot them down. i already get enough random things said to me on the street as catcalls without having to deal with men who feel entitled to responses.
posted by lia at 10:38 AM on December 16, 2009 [6 favorites]
um, where do you live? if men commonly did this in nyc (where i live), they would basically be greeting strangers all the damn time.
the problem with making casual eye contact with men, and this is not just an american woman thing, it happens everywhere. is that a lot of men take casual eye contact with a woman as an invitation to strike up a conversation. and then they get pissed and say nasty things when you shoot them down. i already get enough random things said to me on the street as catcalls without having to deal with men who feel entitled to responses.
posted by lia at 10:38 AM on December 16, 2009 [6 favorites]
I know there is the obvious issue of not wanting to appear “interested” or send a sexual signal... but does that explain everything?
In my case, yes. Note, I am a woman but I am not all (American) women.
posted by gaspode at 10:39 AM on December 16, 2009
In my case, yes. Note, I am a woman but I am not all (American) women.
posted by gaspode at 10:39 AM on December 16, 2009
A man isn't as likely to be threatened by another man as a woman is. Women have to put up with a lot of crap from men they don't know, there's no point inviting more of it. Besides I've never seen two strangers say hello to each other, no matter their gender.
posted by amethysts at 10:39 AM on December 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by amethysts at 10:39 AM on December 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
Best answer: There's a book by Martin Jay called "Downcast Eyes" that explores the dynamics of eye contact and power you might find interesting.
And to answer your question as a female, yes, you learn early that if you look directly at a strange man, many of them will interpret the gaze as sexual interest and proceed along some very aggressive pathways. Ruins it for the rest of you nice guys. When I have my guy next to me, I make a lot more casual eye contact and look around more, and since he's rather intimidating and has that male surveillance gaze, other men become noticeably more reticent ;) .
posted by effluvia at 10:39 AM on December 16, 2009 [4 favorites]
And to answer your question as a female, yes, you learn early that if you look directly at a strange man, many of them will interpret the gaze as sexual interest and proceed along some very aggressive pathways. Ruins it for the rest of you nice guys. When I have my guy next to me, I make a lot more casual eye contact and look around more, and since he's rather intimidating and has that male surveillance gaze, other men become noticeably more reticent ;) .
posted by effluvia at 10:39 AM on December 16, 2009 [4 favorites]
You might find this thread helpful.
posted by Lutoslawski at 10:39 AM on December 16, 2009 [16 favorites]
posted by Lutoslawski at 10:39 AM on December 16, 2009 [16 favorites]
Why do (American) women tend to avoid casual eye contact with men as they walk by, enter an elevator, etc... I know there is the obvious issue of not wanting to appear “interested” or send a sexual signal...but does that explain everything?
This woman (who was much more into eye contact with strange men until it got me burned one too many times, post puberty) says yes, it does explain everything.
posted by availablelight at 10:40 AM on December 16, 2009 [3 favorites]
This woman (who was much more into eye contact with strange men until it got me burned one too many times, post puberty) says yes, it does explain everything.
posted by availablelight at 10:40 AM on December 16, 2009 [3 favorites]
who was much more into eye contact with strange men until it got me burned one too many times, post puberty
This is also a very good point. To some extent I still lament the days when I was a kid and could grin in a possibly alarmingly cheerful and insane fashion at people and just have them smile back. I still feel alarmingly cheerful and insane, but I let that grin out to play a lot less, considering what it sometimes attracts.
posted by WidgetAlley at 10:43 AM on December 16, 2009
This is also a very good point. To some extent I still lament the days when I was a kid and could grin in a possibly alarmingly cheerful and insane fashion at people and just have them smile back. I still feel alarmingly cheerful and insane, but I let that grin out to play a lot less, considering what it sometimes attracts.
posted by WidgetAlley at 10:43 AM on December 16, 2009
I'm sure the reasons for this vary, as does the prevalence of the behavior in different places, situations, times of day, etc.
Women I don't know frequently make eye contact with me and smile when passing on a sidewalk or in a hallway. I live in a smallish town, though. Perhaps that makes a difference.
posted by jingzuo at 10:44 AM on December 16, 2009
Women I don't know frequently make eye contact with me and smile when passing on a sidewalk or in a hallway. I live in a smallish town, though. Perhaps that makes a difference.
posted by jingzuo at 10:44 AM on December 16, 2009
Or this thread. I think it mostly has to do with the local culture (I'm a woman, I flak to strange men where I live but wouldn't, for example, when visiting the US).
posted by saucysault at 10:45 AM on December 16, 2009
posted by saucysault at 10:45 AM on December 16, 2009
I mean, when two men walk past as strangers they commonly make eye contact and offer a quick greeting.
Really? I don't think I do. Does that make me strange?
posted by HFSH at 10:45 AM on December 16, 2009
Really? I don't think I do. Does that make me strange?
posted by HFSH at 10:45 AM on December 16, 2009
Best answer: I think there are two parts to the answer. The first has been widely discussed ad nauseam on MetaFilter: the male gaze, objectification of women, and the general climate of fear many females have in public where men are present. Seems like a totally legit reaction for some women to just avoid eye contact altogether, as a means of minimizing real or perceived sexist crap.
The second part could vary wildly depending on the part of the country you're in. My experience has been that in some places, people (men and women) are just friendly and will make eye contact, nod, say hello, wave, and chat up strangers in the grocery aisle. In other places, people are in their own little isolated world in public, and it would be the gravest sin to violate the sanctity of that bubble. They want nothing more than to go about their day and just be left alone. These people are acting normally within their community but to outsiders from the other sort of place, they come across as stand-offish and rude.
My guess is you're experiencing a little of both.
posted by The Winsome Parker Lewis at 10:46 AM on December 16, 2009 [7 favorites]
The second part could vary wildly depending on the part of the country you're in. My experience has been that in some places, people (men and women) are just friendly and will make eye contact, nod, say hello, wave, and chat up strangers in the grocery aisle. In other places, people are in their own little isolated world in public, and it would be the gravest sin to violate the sanctity of that bubble. They want nothing more than to go about their day and just be left alone. These people are acting normally within their community but to outsiders from the other sort of place, they come across as stand-offish and rude.
My guess is you're experiencing a little of both.
posted by The Winsome Parker Lewis at 10:46 AM on December 16, 2009 [7 favorites]
You might find this thread helpful.
And this one, which was basically an extension of the original. That ought to keep you busy and help to say that not wanting to appear interested/send signals is likely far more important then you are thinking.
But as another datapoint, I'm a guy, and I don't make eye contact with other men or women if I don't know them. Maybe that's just me. as I'm admittedly relatively introverted. But even as I walk around my own department at work, I'm always hesitant to nod at people I only know tangentially. I'm generally figure that they don't remember me, I only really say hi to people I know well. So, I think your original premise that men make eye contact and offer greetings is a bit off.
posted by dnesan at 10:47 AM on December 16, 2009
And this one, which was basically an extension of the original. That ought to keep you busy and help to say that not wanting to appear interested/send signals is likely far more important then you are thinking.
But as another datapoint, I'm a guy, and I don't make eye contact with other men or women if I don't know them. Maybe that's just me. as I'm admittedly relatively introverted. But even as I walk around my own department at work, I'm always hesitant to nod at people I only know tangentially. I'm generally figure that they don't remember me, I only really say hi to people I know well. So, I think your original premise that men make eye contact and offer greetings is a bit off.
posted by dnesan at 10:47 AM on December 16, 2009
I don't like to talk to strangers. I don't think this has anything to do with my gender.
posted by something something at 10:47 AM on December 16, 2009
posted by something something at 10:47 AM on December 16, 2009
If I am in the mood to talk to strangers, I smile and make eye contact. If I'm not, I don't. In general I don't smile at men as much as women (for the reasons given above), but there are tons of other factors as well.
posted by muddgirl at 10:47 AM on December 16, 2009
posted by muddgirl at 10:47 AM on December 16, 2009
Flak = talk wazzup spellcheque?
posted by saucysault at 10:48 AM on December 16, 2009
posted by saucysault at 10:48 AM on December 16, 2009
My experiences in self-defense classes tell me that women avoid eye contact because they're afraid of being targeted in some way (for uninvited flirtation, speaking, mugging, worse). It's an instant and mostly unconscious avoidance of any sort of confrontation that could lead to an uncomfortable or seriously dangerous situation.
That said, the self-defense class also taught me that if someone looks potentially threatening to me, eye contact will demonstrate assertiveness and awareness. So I look strangers in the eye as they pass me, almost invariably. And yes, random, assorted men interpret it as some sign of interest ALL THE TIME, and some start talking to me, and some go so far as to turn around and start following me. It's a pretty fucked up social dynamic.
posted by so_gracefully at 10:48 AM on December 16, 2009
That said, the self-defense class also taught me that if someone looks potentially threatening to me, eye contact will demonstrate assertiveness and awareness. So I look strangers in the eye as they pass me, almost invariably. And yes, random, assorted men interpret it as some sign of interest ALL THE TIME, and some start talking to me, and some go so far as to turn around and start following me. It's a pretty fucked up social dynamic.
posted by so_gracefully at 10:48 AM on December 16, 2009
For me, the reason is indeed to avoid creating an appearance of interest and hence to avoid being hassled. Hope you got a chance to read the Schrodinger's Cat thread.
posted by bearwife at 10:50 AM on December 16, 2009
posted by bearwife at 10:50 AM on December 16, 2009
If you're looking for this sort of thing, go to my hometown in rural Minnesota. You'll get all of the eye contact and friendly greetings from strangers you want.
posted by craven_morhead at 10:51 AM on December 16, 2009
posted by craven_morhead at 10:51 AM on December 16, 2009
Response by poster: Terrific responses that pretty much validate what I suspected. I live in Texas and "commonly" have been too strong a word for strange men greeting each other, making small talk in elevator or waiting in line. But it does in fact happen around here! I guess I am a nice guy that hates that creepy dudes have created such an environment for women. Also, even though I an 39 I sometimes still see the world as a child and like to ponder adult behavior.
posted by punkfloyd at 10:53 AM on December 16, 2009
posted by punkfloyd at 10:53 AM on December 16, 2009
People in dense urban areas tend to make less eye contact/say hello than people in small towns or rural areas, in my experience. We have less physical space in cities, and try to create it by pretending there aren't so many people around.
Data point: I'm a woman, and I'll make eye contact with men on the street or in a store - I mean, not all of them, obviously, but sometimes - but not in an elevator (I don't make eye contact with women in elevators either, generally speaking. We're trapped in a small metal box for a few minutes, and it just seems like a bad place to get the friendly on with a stranger. Elevators may be a special case, though. I don't think most people talk to or make eye contact with other people in elevators. We all just stare at the numbers as they light up.
posted by rtha at 10:55 AM on December 16, 2009 [2 favorites]
Data point: I'm a woman, and I'll make eye contact with men on the street or in a store - I mean, not all of them, obviously, but sometimes - but not in an elevator (I don't make eye contact with women in elevators either, generally speaking. We're trapped in a small metal box for a few minutes, and it just seems like a bad place to get the friendly on with a stranger. Elevators may be a special case, though. I don't think most people talk to or make eye contact with other people in elevators. We all just stare at the numbers as they light up.
posted by rtha at 10:55 AM on December 16, 2009 [2 favorites]
American woman here (living in London.) I refrain from eye contact with people whose attention I don't want to engage. This includes women as well as men.
posted by Pallas Athena at 11:00 AM on December 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by Pallas Athena at 11:00 AM on December 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
Several years ago I heard a story (possibly urban legend but it rang true to me) about a store telling its checkers to be more friendly to customers and, specifically, to make eye contact when handing customers their receipts. Apparently the store had to drop the policy when female checkers began complaining about unwanted sexual advances from male customers.
Also, this may be a cultural thing and even a regional thing. I live in California and hike the nearby mountains often. When hiking recently in Shenandoah National Park, EVERY SINGLE PERSON I passed on the trail made eye contact and said, at minimum, "Hi" and often something along the lines of "Have a nice day", "Isn't it a beautiful day", etc. In CA, people maybe make eye contact, maybe smile, that's about it.
posted by eleslie at 11:03 AM on December 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
Also, this may be a cultural thing and even a regional thing. I live in California and hike the nearby mountains often. When hiking recently in Shenandoah National Park, EVERY SINGLE PERSON I passed on the trail made eye contact and said, at minimum, "Hi" and often something along the lines of "Have a nice day", "Isn't it a beautiful day", etc. In CA, people maybe make eye contact, maybe smile, that's about it.
posted by eleslie at 11:03 AM on December 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
The street I live on is famous for prostitution. Making eye contact with men on this street (heck, just walking down the street) can result in an immediate proposition.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 11:05 AM on December 16, 2009
posted by The Light Fantastic at 11:05 AM on December 16, 2009
First, where are you? Where I live, I make eye contact with men and women in public regularly, and both sexes make eye contact right back. Most time both sexes smile, and if the area isn't too busy a "Hi" isn't uncommon. Then again I live in Mayberry, USA, and locking your doors at night is considered a security system around here.
As far as your question, I would guess that it's simple risk assessment. If I'm walking down the street and see an unassuming guy walking toward me, what's the worst that can happen? He either makes eye contact with me or he doesn't. My look at him does not carry any meaning other than "Hi, we're both in the same area and I want to acknowledge our shared experience."
A woman on the other hand is wielding a significantly different piece of machinery in her gazing into the eyes of a guy. Whether they like it or not, it means "the thin assumed barrier keeping you out of my bubble of solitude has been lowered for you." This can be scary, since that bubble is really the only line of comfort a woman has.
posted by Willie0248 at 11:06 AM on December 16, 2009 [3 favorites]
As far as your question, I would guess that it's simple risk assessment. If I'm walking down the street and see an unassuming guy walking toward me, what's the worst that can happen? He either makes eye contact with me or he doesn't. My look at him does not carry any meaning other than "Hi, we're both in the same area and I want to acknowledge our shared experience."
A woman on the other hand is wielding a significantly different piece of machinery in her gazing into the eyes of a guy. Whether they like it or not, it means "the thin assumed barrier keeping you out of my bubble of solitude has been lowered for you." This can be scary, since that bubble is really the only line of comfort a woman has.
posted by Willie0248 at 11:06 AM on December 16, 2009 [3 favorites]
Women don't make eye contact as often as men because they look sooner. Waaay sooner. Dude, that woman has given you a rating on a scale of one to ten before you even realized she was a redhead. Then, if she likes you, she'll slow down to your cow speed and make eye contact.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 11:08 AM on December 16, 2009 [4 favorites]
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 11:08 AM on December 16, 2009 [4 favorites]
Any eye contact (MM, MF, FF) in NYC is a form of overt aggression, so I do think what part of the country you live in has some bearing.
posted by milarepa at 11:12 AM on December 16, 2009
posted by milarepa at 11:12 AM on December 16, 2009
What milarepa just said is absolutely ridiculous. What part of NYC do you live in, Rikers Island???
posted by Grither at 11:19 AM on December 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by Grither at 11:19 AM on December 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
People keep mentioning eye contact/smile as a form of greeting, I usually smile when I make eye contact someone to diffuse tension-- I tend to come off as aggressive/bitchy, so I overcompensate by smiling a lot and adopting a generally friendly tone-- I'm not greeting you, I'm trying not to be threatening. (Female/New Mexico)
posted by NoraReed at 11:20 AM on December 16, 2009
posted by NoraReed at 11:20 AM on December 16, 2009
Also, this may be a cultural thing and even a regional thing. I live in California and hike the nearby mountains often. When hiking recently in Shenandoah National Park, EVERY SINGLE PERSON I passed on the trail made eye contact and said, at minimum, "Hi" and often something along the lines of "Have a nice day", "Isn't it a beautiful day", etc.
I've noticed that while walking in fairly isolated non-urban areas it's pretty standard to somehow acknowledge other people. Strangely, in isolated urban areas people tend to do their best to ignore each other.
posted by HFSH at 11:20 AM on December 16, 2009 [2 favorites]
I've noticed that while walking in fairly isolated non-urban areas it's pretty standard to somehow acknowledge other people. Strangely, in isolated urban areas people tend to do their best to ignore each other.
posted by HFSH at 11:20 AM on December 16, 2009 [2 favorites]
A lot of women are conditioned not to call attention to themselves, even in situations with zero sexual potential.
Oh, for goodness sakes: as you might notice from the linked Whatcha Reading thread, some women (including me) have learned the hard lesson that, to sexual opportunists, there is no such thing as a situation with zero sexual potential. Toned-deaf Lotharios approach their targets at any time or place.
I have been the unwilling target of sexual overtures during a final exam, in the oncology ward, at a funeral, and at plenty of other places where a person sensitive to tone or mood would have resisted making sexual overtures. It is hardly surprising that I and other women occasionally choose not to engage with complete strangers even to the extent of making eye contact.
posted by Elsa at 11:26 AM on December 16, 2009 [15 favorites]
Oh, for goodness sakes: as you might notice from the linked Whatcha Reading thread, some women (including me) have learned the hard lesson that, to sexual opportunists, there is no such thing as a situation with zero sexual potential. Toned-deaf Lotharios approach their targets at any time or place.
I have been the unwilling target of sexual overtures during a final exam, in the oncology ward, at a funeral, and at plenty of other places where a person sensitive to tone or mood would have resisted making sexual overtures. It is hardly surprising that I and other women occasionally choose not to engage with complete strangers even to the extent of making eye contact.
posted by Elsa at 11:26 AM on December 16, 2009 [15 favorites]
I've noticed that while walking in fairly isolated non-urban areas it's pretty standard to somehow acknowledge other people. Strangely, in isolated urban areas people tend to do their best to ignore each other.
This is pretty normal. We have all the personal/private space we need out in the country so we don't need to carve any extra out. In urban areas people sort of need to carry their personal bubble with them to a certain extent.
I live in a small town. Pretty much everyone I see on the street is someone I at least recognize [in which case "hey how's it going?"] or someone who is a total stranger [in which case "hey welcome to town, we're nice here!"] or possibly one of the few weird creepy people in town [in which case a nod and "hi" and keep moving]. Ignoring people you're standing right next to is seen as socially a little off. You can still do it, but it's the exception rather than the rule. When I'm in the city, I'll usually glance at people and try to follow their lead. Most people seem to keep to themselves so I sort of let them.
I don't totally understand urban interactions so I'll follow the protocol. And of course there's the occasional "hey lady .... hey ... what's the matter with you, stuck up bitch!?" interaction in the city that leads me to believe there are reasons why some people act the way they do.
posted by jessamyn at 11:27 AM on December 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
This is pretty normal. We have all the personal/private space we need out in the country so we don't need to carve any extra out. In urban areas people sort of need to carry their personal bubble with them to a certain extent.
I live in a small town. Pretty much everyone I see on the street is someone I at least recognize [in which case "hey how's it going?"] or someone who is a total stranger [in which case "hey welcome to town, we're nice here!"] or possibly one of the few weird creepy people in town [in which case a nod and "hi" and keep moving]. Ignoring people you're standing right next to is seen as socially a little off. You can still do it, but it's the exception rather than the rule. When I'm in the city, I'll usually glance at people and try to follow their lead. Most people seem to keep to themselves so I sort of let them.
I don't totally understand urban interactions so I'll follow the protocol. And of course there's the occasional "hey lady .... hey ... what's the matter with you, stuck up bitch!?" interaction in the city that leads me to believe there are reasons why some people act the way they do.
posted by jessamyn at 11:27 AM on December 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Try this article and comments on Schrodinger's Rapist.
posted by Sophie1 at 11:27 AM on December 16, 2009
posted by Sophie1 at 11:27 AM on December 16, 2009
I'm a woman, and I look 'way sooner' at other people on the sidewalk in able to identify where the other people are located without making accidental eye contact, which for me feels uncomfortable and like I am inviting contact that I don't want. Even if I think someone's attractive, I could be married, in a relationship, not looking for one, or just in a hurry running errands - when I personally was single and looking, I still had no desire to strike up conversations with strangers in the street.
There are honestly a mutitude of reasons that a woman might not want to make eye contact with someone, and avoiding aggression/harrassment is most definitely one of them. I promise that even though I am a redhead, I am not going about the world rating and rejecting every man in the vicinity. Really. I'm just shy/don't like talking to strangers.
Also, yes, people I meet while hiking are an exception to the no-conversation rule.
posted by heyforfour at 11:29 AM on December 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
There are honestly a mutitude of reasons that a woman might not want to make eye contact with someone, and avoiding aggression/harrassment is most definitely one of them. I promise that even though I am a redhead, I am not going about the world rating and rejecting every man in the vicinity. Really. I'm just shy/don't like talking to strangers.
Also, yes, people I meet while hiking are an exception to the no-conversation rule.
posted by heyforfour at 11:29 AM on December 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
I think saying hi while hiking is a special case. Unless I'm working REALLY hard and need to keep looking in one place or else my glasses will slide down my nose and then I'll fall down the side of a mountain, I always smile and say hi. Because hey, you're out here too, we're relaxing and hiking, enjoying the outdoors, we have something in common. And, if I'm hiking, odds are I'm with someone else. Quite possibly my boyfriend. Less of a chance of creepster behavior. And, I'm not singling myself out for attention by making eye contact: if the passing hiker and I are the only two parties visible, of COURSE he (or she) sees me there.
Different ball game otherwise (I live in metro Boston).
posted by teragram at 11:32 AM on December 16, 2009
Different ball game otherwise (I live in metro Boston).
posted by teragram at 11:32 AM on December 16, 2009
I don't look at strangers so much, because I am shy and don't want to talk to strangers.
A lot of people are shy. And/or private. If I'm in an elevator, it's because I'm going somewhere to do something, not because I'm trying to make new friends.
That said, I'm also very polite, so if someone holds the door for me or whatever, I'm quick to thank them. But even then I don't always make eye contact.
posted by Sidhedevil at 11:34 AM on December 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
A lot of people are shy. And/or private. If I'm in an elevator, it's because I'm going somewhere to do something, not because I'm trying to make new friends.
That said, I'm also very polite, so if someone holds the door for me or whatever, I'm quick to thank them. But even then I don't always make eye contact.
posted by Sidhedevil at 11:34 AM on December 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Gavin de Becker in The Gift of Fear makes the extremely valuable point that men most fear being humiliated by women, while women most fear being raped and killed by men. The power dynamic is so different and I don't think the average guy has really thought about it carefully before. If my making eye contact with some strange dude in the parking garage or elevator means he's going to feel comfortable to approach me, I'm not doing it. I'm watching him like a hawk peripherally, especially if he skeeves me out, but I'm not going to invite him into my little bubble of existence unless I have a really good reason.
Does this mean I think all men are potential rapists and killers? Not at all! Does it mean I'm not going to engage with strange men outside of a very specific, fairly safe setting (party, work, professional relationship)? You betcha.
posted by balls at 11:36 AM on December 16, 2009 [16 favorites]
Does this mean I think all men are potential rapists and killers? Not at all! Does it mean I'm not going to engage with strange men outside of a very specific, fairly safe setting (party, work, professional relationship)? You betcha.
posted by balls at 11:36 AM on December 16, 2009 [16 favorites]
I know there is the obvious issue of not wanting to appear “interested” or send a sexual signal
I don't think that's right. Women aren't walking around thinking "Ooh, I don't want to appear interested." Or "I wonder if I should send a sexual signal? No, not right now."
It's simply the case that women know that not making much eye contact means they have to deal with less objectionable behavior from men.
I mean, when two men walk past as strangers they commonly make eye contact and offer a quick greeting.
That wasn't my experience when I lived in D/FW, so I think you're getting a good dose of confirmation bias.
What part of NYC do you live in, Rikers Island?
NYC is a weird place. When you're walking, everyone's in their own bubble and everyone ignores everyone else. The minute you stop walking though, and get in line for something, complete strangers start telling you about their psychological problems or hemorrhoids out of the blue.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:47 AM on December 16, 2009
I don't think that's right. Women aren't walking around thinking "Ooh, I don't want to appear interested." Or "I wonder if I should send a sexual signal? No, not right now."
It's simply the case that women know that not making much eye contact means they have to deal with less objectionable behavior from men.
I mean, when two men walk past as strangers they commonly make eye contact and offer a quick greeting.
That wasn't my experience when I lived in D/FW, so I think you're getting a good dose of confirmation bias.
What part of NYC do you live in, Rikers Island?
NYC is a weird place. When you're walking, everyone's in their own bubble and everyone ignores everyone else. The minute you stop walking though, and get in line for something, complete strangers start telling you about their psychological problems or hemorrhoids out of the blue.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:47 AM on December 16, 2009
Norah Vincent, a woman who wrote a book about living disguised as man, has some observations:
I had lived in that neighbourhood for years, walking its streets, where men lurk outside of bodegas, on stoops and in doorways much of the day. As a woman, you couldn't walk down those streets invisibly. You were an object of desire or at least semiprurient interest to the men who waited there, even if you weren't pretty. But that night in drag, we walked by those same stoops and doorways and bodegas. We walked by those same groups of men. Only this time they didn't stare. On the contrary, when they met my eyes they looked away immediately and concertedly, and never looked back. It was astounding, the difference, the respect they showed me by not looking at me, by purposely not staring.posted by TheophileEscargot at 11:55 AM on December 16, 2009 [15 favorites]
To look another male in the eye and hold his gaze is to invite conflict, either that or a homosexual encounter. To look away is to accept the status quo, to leave each man to his tiny sphere of influence, the small buffer of pride and poise that surrounds and keeps him.
As people have noted, there are very significant gender issues that intersect with some distinct geographic issues. I am a woman disinclined to make eye contact in general with men while walking down the street for many of the reasons already discussed. However, the degree to which I am disinclined to do that will rise or fall somewhat based on where I am: an urban area vs. a small town; a neighborhood I'm familiar with vs. a neighborhood I'm unfamiliar with; the East Coast vs. the West Coast, etc. All of these things may be factored into the equation in subtle or not-so-subtle ways.
This also isn't just true for women; it can be true for men to a certain degree, as well. I grew up in Colorado and Wyoming, for example, where people tend to be pretty outgoing in terms of greeting strangers. In college in St. Louis, one of my best (male) friends was a born-and-bred New Yorker. The instant he found out I was from Wyoming, he immediately asked me what the deal was, explaining that he once visited a distant relative in Cheyenne and was so unsettled by all the eye contact on the street that he kept checking his pocket to make sure no one had lifted his wallet.
posted by scody at 12:09 PM on December 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
This also isn't just true for women; it can be true for men to a certain degree, as well. I grew up in Colorado and Wyoming, for example, where people tend to be pretty outgoing in terms of greeting strangers. In college in St. Louis, one of my best (male) friends was a born-and-bred New Yorker. The instant he found out I was from Wyoming, he immediately asked me what the deal was, explaining that he once visited a distant relative in Cheyenne and was so unsettled by all the eye contact on the street that he kept checking his pocket to make sure no one had lifted his wallet.
posted by scody at 12:09 PM on December 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
chiming in as another woman for whom eye contact with strangers has resulted in unwanted (and sometimes extremely WEIRD) advances. too many strange encounters has resulted in me just avoiding casual eye contact with men in general. it's not locational either- i've lived in many different countries, though to be honest i've had stranger things happen to me in certain places (tokyo has yielded much weirder and scarier situations than, say, singapore)
however, i think this is because i generally have a friendly demeanor and if i make eye contact, i'll smile because it seems kind of rude not to, and to men in the past this has seemed to them some kind of open invitation rather than me just being polite.
posted by raw sugar at 12:15 PM on December 16, 2009
however, i think this is because i generally have a friendly demeanor and if i make eye contact, i'll smile because it seems kind of rude not to, and to men in the past this has seemed to them some kind of open invitation rather than me just being polite.
posted by raw sugar at 12:15 PM on December 16, 2009
I know there is the obvious issue of not wanting to appear “interested” or send a sexual signal
I don't think that's right. Women aren't walking around thinking "Ooh, I don't want to appear interested.
Sure they are. Not every woman, in every situation, but yeah, they sometimes are. It's a defense.
posted by Pax at 12:17 PM on December 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
I don't think that's right. Women aren't walking around thinking "Ooh, I don't want to appear interested.
Sure they are. Not every woman, in every situation, but yeah, they sometimes are. It's a defense.
posted by Pax at 12:17 PM on December 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
American woman here. I'm not sure that it's exclusively women who do this - I'm a pedestrian in the most un-pedestrian-friendly place on earth (Los Angeles, of course) and I find that while I try to make eye contact with every person I pass*, when I do so, most people look away, male or female.
*Part of my ongoing effort to look bigger, tougher and more confident than my middle-aged 5'2" frame would lead you to believe.
posted by chez shoes at 12:17 PM on December 16, 2009
*Part of my ongoing effort to look bigger, tougher and more confident than my middle-aged 5'2" frame would lead you to believe.
posted by chez shoes at 12:17 PM on December 16, 2009
The very question I've been thinking about recently. Recently, I was walking down a sidewalk to enter a rec center, I passed an older man and we had a nice interaction in passing by. At the door, a woman was leaving as I was entering. I refused to look at her for many of the reasons cited above. It sucks being rejected, I in no way want to be auto-classified as a stalker, and I'd rather give people, especially women, space than attention. I got the distinct impression that I had brushed off someone who would rather have been acknowledged.
I understand now that I've built a model of people safe to interact with on the street and it excludes almost all women. Meaning with whom I initiate a connection. Paradoxically it seems like I interact more with women on a casual basis in public than ever before, usually initiated by women since I rarely do so.
Also, as an experiment I've begun to notice that when I drop my gaze versus keeping my gaze in front of me, it makes a difference to the person approaching me. It's as if people prefer to be seen without being looked at directly. Dropping my gaze is a form of exclusion.
posted by diode at 12:18 PM on December 16, 2009
I understand now that I've built a model of people safe to interact with on the street and it excludes almost all women. Meaning with whom I initiate a connection. Paradoxically it seems like I interact more with women on a casual basis in public than ever before, usually initiated by women since I rarely do so.
Also, as an experiment I've begun to notice that when I drop my gaze versus keeping my gaze in front of me, it makes a difference to the person approaching me. It's as if people prefer to be seen without being looked at directly. Dropping my gaze is a form of exclusion.
posted by diode at 12:18 PM on December 16, 2009
American man here. Who moved into a predominantly gay neighborhood of Chicago and learned first hand about the male gaze. After a very short period of time, I learned that my day would go much easier if I studiously avoided making eye contact on the bus, when walking past the bars on the way home, when running errands on the weekend, etc. It wasn't so much that I felt threatened (although that happened once). It was just annoying and exhausting to deal with 20 different guys chatting me up in the course of 6 hrs running around the hood. Once or twice is somewhat flattering. After that, my thoughts are being constantly interrupted, my errands delayed, and there's a fairly significant pressure in figuring out how to shut down a flirtation attempt without being rude. It's just easier to not give anyone the opening.
I had no idea how much of this women have to put up with. Some of the comments up-thread made it seem like women just feared the occasional dangerous or overly aggressive interest. That certainly may be, but in my case, it was the constant low-level hum of "Hi, what's your name. Do you live around here? I'm having a party on Saturday, you should totally come over." etc. I really came to resent it, which is too bad considering how nice and well meaning nearly every individual guy was.
posted by centerweight at 12:45 PM on December 16, 2009 [13 favorites]
I had no idea how much of this women have to put up with. Some of the comments up-thread made it seem like women just feared the occasional dangerous or overly aggressive interest. That certainly may be, but in my case, it was the constant low-level hum of "Hi, what's your name. Do you live around here? I'm having a party on Saturday, you should totally come over." etc. I really came to resent it, which is too bad considering how nice and well meaning nearly every individual guy was.
posted by centerweight at 12:45 PM on December 16, 2009 [13 favorites]
The really savvy women are wearing dark sunglasses. Are they making eye contact with you?? You'll never know.
posted by crinklebat at 12:47 PM on December 16, 2009 [3 favorites]
posted by crinklebat at 12:47 PM on December 16, 2009 [3 favorites]
I mean, when two men walk past as strangers they commonly make eye contact and offer a quick greeting.
I'm not a man, but I live in the Midwest, and I think if anyone did that most people would respond in kind out of politeness, but in their head they'd be thinking "Damn! Am I supposed to know that guy from somewhere?"
posted by dagnyscott at 12:55 PM on December 16, 2009
I'm not a man, but I live in the Midwest, and I think if anyone did that most people would respond in kind out of politeness, but in their head they'd be thinking "Damn! Am I supposed to know that guy from somewhere?"
posted by dagnyscott at 12:55 PM on December 16, 2009
I mean, when two men walk past as strangers they commonly make eye contact and offer a quick greeting.
Not if I am one of those men. If I can at all help it. Do you know how many strangers I walk past every day?
posted by Kwine at 1:12 PM on December 16, 2009
Not if I am one of those men. If I can at all help it. Do you know how many strangers I walk past every day?
posted by Kwine at 1:12 PM on December 16, 2009
I'm a woman. Born and raised in Texas. Have lived in both rural and urban places. If it's me and another individual (regardless of gender) I make eye contact and say hello as I pass. If I'm with a group of people or alone and passing a group of people I usually will just make eye contact and smile. Usually I'm greeted in kind by the other person regardless of gender. I've never had anyone avoid eye contact or act like I'm weird for making eye contact and saying hello. I've also had both men and women that I don't know strike up a conversation with me while waiting for an elevator or in line somewhere.
posted by GlowWyrm at 1:28 PM on December 16, 2009
posted by GlowWyrm at 1:28 PM on December 16, 2009
You know, I can only speak for lhude sing cuccu, but I avoid eye contact entirely for the purposes of not appearing interested, myself. Especially for those in the age range of who might misread my casual fraction-of-a-second glance, and that is 30 year old men (I am 19). And I do, actually, sadly, constantly think about this.
posted by lhude sing cuccu at 1:32 PM on December 16, 2009
posted by lhude sing cuccu at 1:32 PM on December 16, 2009
I commute in Los Angeles, so YMMV. My experience is that you have no idea what flavor of unstable you may be dealing with and some guys act like a look is an invitation home.
Between the guy singing rap (and punctuating the chorus with BITCH!!!) directly at me, and the guy making kissy noises after I made accidental eye contact - yeah. I've been well 'conditioned' to avoid eye contact. That's just recently - I don't even want to think about the shit I put up with when I was younger.
(Also it seems pretty standard to say hello while hiking - I always thought it was because you're telling the person - yes, we may be alone in an deserted area, but I can identify you.)
posted by Space Kitty at 1:37 PM on December 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
Between the guy singing rap (and punctuating the chorus with BITCH!!!) directly at me, and the guy making kissy noises after I made accidental eye contact - yeah. I've been well 'conditioned' to avoid eye contact. That's just recently - I don't even want to think about the shit I put up with when I was younger.
(Also it seems pretty standard to say hello while hiking - I always thought it was because you're telling the person - yes, we may be alone in an deserted area, but I can identify you.)
posted by Space Kitty at 1:37 PM on December 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
Just wanted to add, after the first couple of times I made eye contact with either gender in public and was accosted by a crazy person, I learned my lesson. I'm a guy.
posted by mattholomew at 1:47 PM on December 16, 2009
posted by mattholomew at 1:47 PM on December 16, 2009
I wonder if this has anything to do with the idea of public decorum going out of favor. Today we like spontaneity, but the downside is that women in public are more likely to be the target of spontaneous male desires.
The purpose of manners is to acknowledge other people while keeping your distance from them. I'd hazard a guess that women feel more comfortable in public places with male strangers who behave more formally, even to other men.
Interesting that we got rid of that because it was hypocritical - men would behave politely in public, but they could get away with anything in private. In trying to solve that, women now feel that men can get away with anything in public too, so I think something has gone wrong somewhere...
posted by AlsoMike at 2:01 PM on December 16, 2009
The purpose of manners is to acknowledge other people while keeping your distance from them. I'd hazard a guess that women feel more comfortable in public places with male strangers who behave more formally, even to other men.
Interesting that we got rid of that because it was hypocritical - men would behave politely in public, but they could get away with anything in private. In trying to solve that, women now feel that men can get away with anything in public too, so I think something has gone wrong somewhere...
posted by AlsoMike at 2:01 PM on December 16, 2009
(Also it seems pretty standard to say hello while hiking - I always thought it was because you're telling the person - yes, we may be alone in an deserted area, but I can identify you.)
This is a really good point. "Eye contact" is not necessarily a friendly gesture, or a flirtatious one, or an aggressive one. Like most social interaction, eye contact has a wide range of possible meaning, and an individual act or incident might convey different meaning for the participants. In a given situation, I might:
- assess a person from a distance without making noticeable eye contact
- greet a person verbally and make eye contact
- make silent but friendly* eye contact (
- make eye contact with a neutral* flick of eye contact
- completely avoid eye contact or acknowledgement of the other person(s)
- give clear eye contact with intended assertive* intent
* Of course, just because I intend my behavior to be coded as friendly or as neutral or as assertive doesn't mean that the other person will receive it as friendly or as neutral or as assertive.
and those are just the possibilities that occur to me at the moment, most likely because I've seen them recently. I see each of these scenarios play out, between men and men, between women and women, between women and men, on a regular basis.
posted by Elsa at 2:08 PM on December 16, 2009
This is a really good point. "Eye contact" is not necessarily a friendly gesture, or a flirtatious one, or an aggressive one. Like most social interaction, eye contact has a wide range of possible meaning, and an individual act or incident might convey different meaning for the participants. In a given situation, I might:
- assess a person from a distance without making noticeable eye contact
- greet a person verbally and make eye contact
- make silent but friendly* eye contact (
- make eye contact with a neutral* flick of eye contact
- completely avoid eye contact or acknowledgement of the other person(s)
- give clear eye contact with intended assertive* intent
* Of course, just because I intend my behavior to be coded as friendly or as neutral or as assertive doesn't mean that the other person will receive it as friendly or as neutral or as assertive.
and those are just the possibilities that occur to me at the moment, most likely because I've seen them recently. I see each of these scenarios play out, between men and men, between women and women, between women and men, on a regular basis.
posted by Elsa at 2:08 PM on December 16, 2009
As an East Coaster who used to travel to Texas for work, I was surprised at how friendly and eye-engaging and law-abiding Texans were, and this was in the big city of Houston. They frequently made eye contact and gave a nod in passing. They also abided lawfully at empty cross walks even if there was nary a car around for miles until the sign said "walk." I felt like a hooligan jaywalking. This stood in contrast to places like NYC where people are actively scooting across and dodging traffic, and bustling by not making eye contact.
Yeah, also as a suburban kid, people are a lot more friendly, patient, and inclined to engage in small towns and suburbs than in urban areas. But some big cities are definitely friendlier than others.
Like you, I also lament that we don't live in a world where we can make friendly eye contact all the time. (But I'll bet I've also contributed to the problem at some point just by being my unintentional creeepy self.)
posted by That takes balls. at 2:10 PM on December 16, 2009
Yeah, also as a suburban kid, people are a lot more friendly, patient, and inclined to engage in small towns and suburbs than in urban areas. But some big cities are definitely friendlier than others.
Like you, I also lament that we don't live in a world where we can make friendly eye contact all the time. (But I'll bet I've also contributed to the problem at some point just by being my unintentional creeepy self.)
posted by That takes balls. at 2:10 PM on December 16, 2009
As an East Coaster who used to travel to Texas for work, I was surprised at how friendly and eye-engaging and law-abiding Texans were, and this was in the big city of Houston. They frequently made eye contact and gave a nod in passing. They also abided lawfully at empty cross walks even if there was nary a car around for miles until the sign said "walk." I felt like a hooligan jaywalking. This stood in contrast to places like NYC where people are actively scooting across and dodging traffic, and bustling by not making eye contact.
this has less to do with abiding lawfully than it does car culture—in new york city, the pedestrian is the acknowledged king because everyone walks, and people are more important than cars. cars stop for you here because everyone, including the people driving them, expects them to stop for people. in texas (and most everywhere else in the us), the car is king because everyone drives and you don't really walk to get around. you don't expect people to be walking, let alone crossing the street. you jaywalk and you might die. my friends from texas are routinely surprised that a) cars stop for people here and b) drivers do not yell at the people that've walked in front of their cars.
posted by lia at 2:36 PM on December 16, 2009
this has less to do with abiding lawfully than it does car culture—in new york city, the pedestrian is the acknowledged king because everyone walks, and people are more important than cars. cars stop for you here because everyone, including the people driving them, expects them to stop for people. in texas (and most everywhere else in the us), the car is king because everyone drives and you don't really walk to get around. you don't expect people to be walking, let alone crossing the street. you jaywalk and you might die. my friends from texas are routinely surprised that a) cars stop for people here and b) drivers do not yell at the people that've walked in front of their cars.
posted by lia at 2:36 PM on December 16, 2009
Sure they are. Not every woman, in every situation, but yeah, they sometimes are. It's a defense.
What I mean is, women aren't thinking "Ooh, I don't want to appear interested," they're thinking "I don't want men to bother or harm me."
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 2:38 PM on December 16, 2009
What I mean is, women aren't thinking "Ooh, I don't want to appear interested," they're thinking "I don't want men to bother or harm me."
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 2:38 PM on December 16, 2009
No one has attempted to answer this by comparing American women to women from other countries yet - which is what I thought you were asking. Below is some anecdotal brainstorming.
I traveled to about 15 countries over the past year and my experiences varied quite a bit country to country. The countries I visited that were the closest to the US (western Europe, Australia, New Zealand) were the most interesting because I had a better ability to interpret what was going around me and (unlike India and SE Asia) I'm not always obviously a foreign tourist until you talk to me.
Australia: a bit more eye contact than in the US. I don't get hit on in the US, and I was hit on by women in Australia on a number of occasions. I had a few women check me out up and down like a piece of meat (as men typically do to women) on a couple of occasions in smaller towns - which was creepy, fascinating, and a bit of an ego boost all in one. A male Australian friend described Australian women as "almost feral," which isn't exactly fair, but I did get the impression that Australians aren't as burdened with the various Christian guilt complexes as Americans are, nor as self-conscious as many European cultures.
SE Asia: Less eye contact than home; again it's hard to really say as I'm obviously a foreign tourist.
India: Little eye contact - and a lot of intentional gaze avoidance. The sexes are quite segregated in India.
Turkey: This was very interesting. Turks are more sociable than just about any culture on the planet. They (men and women) hold their gaze on you far longer than would be considered polite in the US - which left me thinking there were huge numbers of women in Istanbul interested in me. Very amusing. Got hit on here too which I was definitely not expecting. I have no idea how much of the gazing was showing interest vs. general social warmth.
UK: about the same as the US.
Italy, Germany, Paris, Amsterdam: significantly more eye contact than the US. I also spent more time in bars and clubs here, so it's easier to isolate and examine the sexual side. I found the women in bars and clubs to be a lot more willing to show interest by smiling and holding their gaze for a not subtle length of time. In the US women tend to keep it a lot more subtle - holding eye contact a fraction of a second longer than is polite and maybe a quick hair flip - and it can be easy to miss. There is something here too that is hard to explain - but it boils down to feeling like the whole process of the mating game flows easier in these countries. In the US I often feel an additional vibe of fear and insecurity, and by fear in this case I'm not referring to female fear of male physical violence.
As to why - I don't know. The "Schrodinger's rapist" side (how safe the average woman feels in a given culture) is going to modulate across the level of trust between members of a society that are also strangers. Turkey and Italy I can imagine being worse than the US, but I don't know the crime stats or have a sociological background on either country. France and Germany I would expect to be similar to the US.
I have a few other half baked ideas - one, I think consumer culture does more harm to women in the US than it does to women in Europe through advertising that makes them feel worthless and unattractive, and two, I think there is a bit of a Disney princess myth in the US in which the man has to notice and approach the female with zero input from her lest the purity of the whole romantic experience be ruined. Also, Christian or not, everyone in this country carries some level of burden of the ultra-conservative sex and body hating Christians who originated much of this culture.
posted by MillMan at 2:39 PM on December 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
I traveled to about 15 countries over the past year and my experiences varied quite a bit country to country. The countries I visited that were the closest to the US (western Europe, Australia, New Zealand) were the most interesting because I had a better ability to interpret what was going around me and (unlike India and SE Asia) I'm not always obviously a foreign tourist until you talk to me.
Australia: a bit more eye contact than in the US. I don't get hit on in the US, and I was hit on by women in Australia on a number of occasions. I had a few women check me out up and down like a piece of meat (as men typically do to women) on a couple of occasions in smaller towns - which was creepy, fascinating, and a bit of an ego boost all in one. A male Australian friend described Australian women as "almost feral," which isn't exactly fair, but I did get the impression that Australians aren't as burdened with the various Christian guilt complexes as Americans are, nor as self-conscious as many European cultures.
SE Asia: Less eye contact than home; again it's hard to really say as I'm obviously a foreign tourist.
India: Little eye contact - and a lot of intentional gaze avoidance. The sexes are quite segregated in India.
Turkey: This was very interesting. Turks are more sociable than just about any culture on the planet. They (men and women) hold their gaze on you far longer than would be considered polite in the US - which left me thinking there were huge numbers of women in Istanbul interested in me. Very amusing. Got hit on here too which I was definitely not expecting. I have no idea how much of the gazing was showing interest vs. general social warmth.
UK: about the same as the US.
Italy, Germany, Paris, Amsterdam: significantly more eye contact than the US. I also spent more time in bars and clubs here, so it's easier to isolate and examine the sexual side. I found the women in bars and clubs to be a lot more willing to show interest by smiling and holding their gaze for a not subtle length of time. In the US women tend to keep it a lot more subtle - holding eye contact a fraction of a second longer than is polite and maybe a quick hair flip - and it can be easy to miss. There is something here too that is hard to explain - but it boils down to feeling like the whole process of the mating game flows easier in these countries. In the US I often feel an additional vibe of fear and insecurity, and by fear in this case I'm not referring to female fear of male physical violence.
As to why - I don't know. The "Schrodinger's rapist" side (how safe the average woman feels in a given culture) is going to modulate across the level of trust between members of a society that are also strangers. Turkey and Italy I can imagine being worse than the US, but I don't know the crime stats or have a sociological background on either country. France and Germany I would expect to be similar to the US.
I have a few other half baked ideas - one, I think consumer culture does more harm to women in the US than it does to women in Europe through advertising that makes them feel worthless and unattractive, and two, I think there is a bit of a Disney princess myth in the US in which the man has to notice and approach the female with zero input from her lest the purity of the whole romantic experience be ruined. Also, Christian or not, everyone in this country carries some level of burden of the ultra-conservative sex and body hating Christians who originated much of this culture.
posted by MillMan at 2:39 PM on December 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
NYC female here. And I pretty much save my eye contact and smiles for people's dogs. And yes; dark glasses are vital!
One time I visited a friend in NW Portland, OR. Everybody was still asleep the first morning I was there, so I, being on East Coast time, took an early walk. I must've encountered about ten people along the way, ALL of whom smiled and said hello and what a beautiful morning, etc. etc. Finally I ran back to my hostess in terror. "Jeez, people were TALKING TO ME! What do they WANT FROM ME??!!" She laughed and said, "They wanted to say hello!" How totally weird that was!
Since then I've gone back to Portland often and can now smile and say hello back. But in NYC I like my bubble!
posted by Wylie Kyoto at 2:50 PM on December 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
One time I visited a friend in NW Portland, OR. Everybody was still asleep the first morning I was there, so I, being on East Coast time, took an early walk. I must've encountered about ten people along the way, ALL of whom smiled and said hello and what a beautiful morning, etc. etc. Finally I ran back to my hostess in terror. "Jeez, people were TALKING TO ME! What do they WANT FROM ME??!!" She laughed and said, "They wanted to say hello!" How totally weird that was!
Since then I've gone back to Portland often and can now smile and say hello back. But in NYC I like my bubble!
posted by Wylie Kyoto at 2:50 PM on December 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
I will occasionally make eye contact with a guy on the street, but I make damn sure it's only for like 2 seconds, and I make sure it's more of a "you just happen to be in my eyeline, my eyes glaze over, YOU'RE NOT SPECIAL," glance sort of thing. I am pretty much doing that in the aforementioned "hiker" style of "I know you're there, I could identify you in a lineup," except on a public street. Also it's kind of hard to keep staring anywhere but in the face of the guy who's walking right towards you on the sidewalk, who's hard to pretend that you're not seeing him during a 5-minute walk.
But in general, yeah, we won't look you in the eye because we're afraid you're going to be a psycho and if we look at you, you'll start stalking us because you thought we said, "I want to fuck you" by doing that. Unfortunately, a woman making significant (say, five seconds) of eye contact with a random dude is generally taken as a signal of interest, especially with people with no boundaries or sense of social skills.
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:53 PM on December 16, 2009
But in general, yeah, we won't look you in the eye because we're afraid you're going to be a psycho and if we look at you, you'll start stalking us because you thought we said, "I want to fuck you" by doing that. Unfortunately, a woman making significant (say, five seconds) of eye contact with a random dude is generally taken as a signal of interest, especially with people with no boundaries or sense of social skills.
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:53 PM on December 16, 2009
Millman, but American consumer culture is hypersexualized. The overwhelming message that our culture sends is that you have a duty to enjoy yourself, your life is about living your dreams, unlock your true secret desires, finding your passion, etc. If you don't, there's something wrong with you.
Hedonism isn't transgressive, it's mainstream.
posted by AlsoMike at 3:12 PM on December 16, 2009
Hedonism isn't transgressive, it's mainstream.
posted by AlsoMike at 3:12 PM on December 16, 2009
I grew up in a collegey town with an abundance of crazy people and hippie panhandlers.
I now live in a larger city with an abundance of crazy people, hippie panhandlers, and a lot more cars.
Add that all together and I rarely make eye contact with strangers. You never know who's going to ask if you can "spare a smile," and oh my god no.
posted by grapesaresour at 4:03 PM on December 16, 2009
I now live in a larger city with an abundance of crazy people, hippie panhandlers, and a lot more cars.
Add that all together and I rarely make eye contact with strangers. You never know who's going to ask if you can "spare a smile," and oh my god no.
posted by grapesaresour at 4:03 PM on December 16, 2009
In general though, it depends on the situation, scenario, location, and time of day. If I'm leisurely walking around or on my way someplace, I generally will look and smile. Bonus chance if you are a small child or have a dog.
If it's late at night and I'm on my way home, I generally won't look directly at anyone. Especially if you're a tall or otherwise threatening looking man. I honestly don't want to size you up like that, men of the world (because most of you are fine people), but I'm kind of short and I want to make it home without incident.
Wylie Kyoto's comment reminded me of times I've spent in NJ or in the Atlanta area with family and had people coming up to me or just saying hello a lot or waving and chatting. I'm a Brooklyn native, and I will look at people and smile and talk to strangers here in NYC too, but down south it was mild overkill. I adapted, where perhaps some New Yorkers who are more into their own bubble might not.
posted by cmgonzalez at 4:42 PM on December 16, 2009
If it's late at night and I'm on my way home, I generally won't look directly at anyone. Especially if you're a tall or otherwise threatening looking man. I honestly don't want to size you up like that, men of the world (because most of you are fine people), but I'm kind of short and I want to make it home without incident.
Wylie Kyoto's comment reminded me of times I've spent in NJ or in the Atlanta area with family and had people coming up to me or just saying hello a lot or waving and chatting. I'm a Brooklyn native, and I will look at people and smile and talk to strangers here in NYC too, but down south it was mild overkill. I adapted, where perhaps some New Yorkers who are more into their own bubble might not.
posted by cmgonzalez at 4:42 PM on December 16, 2009
I'm late to the game but thanks for mentioning you are in TEXAS.
For the last couple weeks I have been here (HOU, DFW) for work, after spending the last 10+ years in Boston (cold) and Japan (cold) where we live in our own worlds while navigating the streets. The fact that you all want to talk to me in the elevator and greet me everywhere freaks me right the hell out.
If you go to my part of the world and make eye contact with people and talk with them, they will either glare at you or skitter to the other side of the sidewalk.
This is certainly a mix of regional flavor, "what kind of unstable you're dealing with," and a grudging acceptance of what guys interpret eye contact to mean.
posted by whatzit at 4:49 PM on December 16, 2009
For the last couple weeks I have been here (HOU, DFW) for work, after spending the last 10+ years in Boston (cold) and Japan (cold) where we live in our own worlds while navigating the streets. The fact that you all want to talk to me in the elevator and greet me everywhere freaks me right the hell out.
If you go to my part of the world and make eye contact with people and talk with them, they will either glare at you or skitter to the other side of the sidewalk.
This is certainly a mix of regional flavor, "what kind of unstable you're dealing with," and a grudging acceptance of what guys interpret eye contact to mean.
posted by whatzit at 4:49 PM on December 16, 2009
American woman in Mexico - I have always been comfortable with eye contact, but here not only have I learned to avoid eye contact, but I have learned how to act like men don't even exist!
I mean it. Women here can walk by a guy on the street and the guy can watch her, he can make a comment (friendly or otherwise) and it´s as if he were a ghost! There is no reaction on the part of the women, no dirty looks, no walking faster, just ... total, cold indifference.
Handy trick. And yes, it does feel safer.
posted by Locochona at 6:33 PM on December 16, 2009
I mean it. Women here can walk by a guy on the street and the guy can watch her, he can make a comment (friendly or otherwise) and it´s as if he were a ghost! There is no reaction on the part of the women, no dirty looks, no walking faster, just ... total, cold indifference.
Handy trick. And yes, it does feel safer.
posted by Locochona at 6:33 PM on December 16, 2009
Also it seems pretty standard to say hello while hiking - I always thought it was because you're telling the person - yes, we may be alone in an deserted area, but I can identify you.
Wow.
I am not American and don't live in the US.
In this part of the world, eye contact and a greeting is the norm when meeting people while 'hiking', but the dynamic is completely different to what you've stated.
Here it's "yes, we may be alone in an deserted area, but if anything goes wrong I'll help you out, and I know you'll do the same for me." When you're a long way from the nearest food/shelter/hospital, in a place where people can die if they get lost/break an ankle/whatever friendliness to strangers is a survival tactic.
posted by HiroProtagonist at 6:58 PM on December 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
Wow.
I am not American and don't live in the US.
In this part of the world, eye contact and a greeting is the norm when meeting people while 'hiking', but the dynamic is completely different to what you've stated.
Here it's "yes, we may be alone in an deserted area, but if anything goes wrong I'll help you out, and I know you'll do the same for me." When you're a long way from the nearest food/shelter/hospital, in a place where people can die if they get lost/break an ankle/whatever friendliness to strangers is a survival tactic.
posted by HiroProtagonist at 6:58 PM on December 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
Best answer: yeah, this is way down here where no one reads. i'll blather a bit anyway.
i'm a woman living in st. louis MO. i walk a lot--about 18-20 miles a week. i make eye contact with whomever is willing to make eye contact with me as i pass them--any age, ethnicity, gender, i don't care, even sometimes people who seem maybe a bit sketchy and wild-eyed. i smile. i say, "man, what great weather for this time of year, huh?" i wink at babies and chat with children about their cool shoes. i walk on. this is a pretty good neighborhood, but that doesn't mean there are no criminals, no danger, no violence. if i let it, all the ugly news that washes over me every day could lock me in a box. i love to connect with my fellow humans, though, and i'll be damned if i let fear, uncertainty, self-doubt, and the constant barrage of advice to cower and cringe rob me of contact with them.
if a guy i talk to flirts with me a bit, i enjoy it and walk on. no, really. maybe it's just because i'm middle-aged and not a stunner . . . no, i've responded that way since i was a young cutey. you know, back when the earth had just cooled and dinosaurs still roamed the earth.
i'm not the only person out there making eye contact either; often on my walks, other pedestrians are already looking at me when i glance their way and are the first to say hello. i think the assumption that "american women" don't make eye contact is a great big fat generalization. many don't--i mean, lord, i can't blame them; look at a whole passel of the responses here.
anyway, that's another data point for you if you're interested.
posted by miss patrish at 9:48 PM on December 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
i'm a woman living in st. louis MO. i walk a lot--about 18-20 miles a week. i make eye contact with whomever is willing to make eye contact with me as i pass them--any age, ethnicity, gender, i don't care, even sometimes people who seem maybe a bit sketchy and wild-eyed. i smile. i say, "man, what great weather for this time of year, huh?" i wink at babies and chat with children about their cool shoes. i walk on. this is a pretty good neighborhood, but that doesn't mean there are no criminals, no danger, no violence. if i let it, all the ugly news that washes over me every day could lock me in a box. i love to connect with my fellow humans, though, and i'll be damned if i let fear, uncertainty, self-doubt, and the constant barrage of advice to cower and cringe rob me of contact with them.
if a guy i talk to flirts with me a bit, i enjoy it and walk on. no, really. maybe it's just because i'm middle-aged and not a stunner . . . no, i've responded that way since i was a young cutey. you know, back when the earth had just cooled and dinosaurs still roamed the earth.
i'm not the only person out there making eye contact either; often on my walks, other pedestrians are already looking at me when i glance their way and are the first to say hello. i think the assumption that "american women" don't make eye contact is a great big fat generalization. many don't--i mean, lord, i can't blame them; look at a whole passel of the responses here.
anyway, that's another data point for you if you're interested.
posted by miss patrish at 9:48 PM on December 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
I am a young-ish female who lives alone in a small, crime-ridden, terrible city, and I can tell you that I have ALWAYS made eye contact and exchanged greetings with whomever came across my path. This would be anything from young top-coated gentlemen who were walking to their Honda Accords to older gentlemen wandering about in sweatpants and a tank top on a (cold!) December Tuesday afternoon. In no way was I expecting anything "sexual" from ANY of these people, which makes me wonder about the earlier post which posits "Australian (et al) women aren't as burdened by the various Christian guilt complexes as American women are." It's a comfort issue, and thus far I've never been particularly guilt-stricken about looking someone in the eyes and saying hello. Or afraid, either. It does come down to fear for women, but God how I would hate to live somewhere where you couldn't just be a person on the street!
posted by lucky25 at 10:39 PM on December 16, 2009
posted by lucky25 at 10:39 PM on December 16, 2009
I was called a fucking bitch yesterday walking home with a ton of groceries because I accidentally made eye contact with a construction worker and didn't respond to his flattering overtures. This is in NYC.
So there's a slight advantage to ignoring men. You don't get harassed quite as often.
posted by amicamentis at 5:18 AM on December 17, 2009
So there's a slight advantage to ignoring men. You don't get harassed quite as often.
posted by amicamentis at 5:18 AM on December 17, 2009
Definitely a city-mouse versus country-mouse thing. It would be exhausting to greet every passer by in the city, so nobody does.
Anyone has the right to greet or not greet anyone they want, but it is more empowering to make some greeting rather than not.
posted by gjc at 7:56 AM on December 17, 2009
Anyone has the right to greet or not greet anyone they want, but it is more empowering to make some greeting rather than not.
posted by gjc at 7:56 AM on December 17, 2009
raw sugar said: "i generally have a friendly demeanor and if i make eye contact, i'll smile because it seems kind of rude not to, and to men in the past this has seemed to them some kind of open invitation rather than me just being polite."
I'm not a very smiley person and in general take on a "street" demeanor when I'm out and about (even here in the friendly Pacific Northwest). However, when I do make eye contact, I reflexively smile and it annoys me. And, yes, I suppose it seems rude not to. However, I can't unwrap that from gender expectations/training. But, what makes me more annoyed is that if it's a guy on the street he is just as likely to not smile back at me. And that annoys me. Where's his it'd-be-rude-not-to-smile training? So then I'm all, "why did I smile at that jackass?" And I get triple annoyed. So, I try not to smile at guys who aren't smiling. Maybe they're smiling on the inside but I can't tell. And it feels so weird not to smile but screw them, I ain't smiling.
Also, all the other stuff about negative feedback for eye contact being good training to avoid it. Now that I'm older and less attractive, I have a bit more freedom to talk to strangers and make eye contact but I don't really go out of my way to do that.
posted by amanda at 8:52 AM on December 17, 2009
I'm not a very smiley person and in general take on a "street" demeanor when I'm out and about (even here in the friendly Pacific Northwest). However, when I do make eye contact, I reflexively smile and it annoys me. And, yes, I suppose it seems rude not to. However, I can't unwrap that from gender expectations/training. But, what makes me more annoyed is that if it's a guy on the street he is just as likely to not smile back at me. And that annoys me. Where's his it'd-be-rude-not-to-smile training? So then I'm all, "why did I smile at that jackass?" And I get triple annoyed. So, I try not to smile at guys who aren't smiling. Maybe they're smiling on the inside but I can't tell. And it feels so weird not to smile but screw them, I ain't smiling.
Also, all the other stuff about negative feedback for eye contact being good training to avoid it. Now that I'm older and less attractive, I have a bit more freedom to talk to strangers and make eye contact but I don't really go out of my way to do that.
posted by amanda at 8:52 AM on December 17, 2009
Location definitely factors into it. I live in Austin (and IANAwoman) but I have to say, generally, if you do not appear creepy, and genuinely smile at people when you walk by them in many many places here, in public, the other person will magically! smile back at you. It's not 100%, but it's way more than in other places I've been in the U.S.
I'm originally from NY metro area, so this was completely alien to me at first, but it's pretty nice.
Beats me how often the women get harassed here by doing so, but I haven't asked.
posted by bitterkitten at 8:52 AM on December 17, 2009
I'm originally from NY metro area, so this was completely alien to me at first, but it's pretty nice.
Beats me how often the women get harassed here by doing so, but I haven't asked.
posted by bitterkitten at 8:52 AM on December 17, 2009
um, where do you live? if men commonly did this in nyc (where i live), they would basically be greeting strangers all the damn time.
lia, punkfloyd clearly lives somewhere not in NYC, which is notorious throughout the rest of the known world for its unfriendliness. In fact (and I'm not making this up), those of us from small-town America ridicule NYers as "people who won't greet strangers on the street".
posted by IAmBroom at 9:03 PM on December 20, 2009
lia, punkfloyd clearly lives somewhere not in NYC, which is notorious throughout the rest of the known world for its unfriendliness. In fact (and I'm not making this up), those of us from small-town America ridicule NYers as "people who won't greet strangers on the street".
posted by IAmBroom at 9:03 PM on December 20, 2009
... That being said, it is emotionally unfeasible for NYers to greet everyone they pass on the street (same for other big-city dwellers).
posted by IAmBroom at 9:04 PM on December 20, 2009
posted by IAmBroom at 9:04 PM on December 20, 2009
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Jaltcoh at 10:37 AM on December 16, 2009