Even moving 2000 miles away didn't help...
December 10, 2009 7:35 PM Subscribe
My mom stalked my girlfriend's mailing address. This is not okay, right?
I got an IM from my girlfriend asking if I'd given my mom her mailing address. When I responded in the negative, she then asked why she had received a letter from my mom.
I'm totally floored right now. Not that it's unexpected, my mom Googles all of our family members every once in a while to see if their names are popping up in the news, or elsewhere. But, I checked. None of the online yellowpages have a listing for my girlfriend. We figure she either got the address from the luggage tag at Thanksgiving last month, went through her purse, bought a background check, or used some intergovernemntal database since she works for a municipality.
The letter was regarding Christmas gifts. Apparently Mom wants to try to coordinate something with her. But, she also asked for GF's e-mail address, so they could talk in the future.
Despite the trivial and non-threatening content of the letter, we both feel violated in the privacy department. I haven't actually seen the letter yet, and GF asked me not to confront my mom until the two of us talk (she's not mad at me, at least), but I don't know how to deal with this situation.
Part of me wants to come out shooting with both barrels. Not only a chewing out, but playing into her hand, oversaturating her with the precious, private and personal information she so desires, in every. Explicit. Detail.
The other part of me realizes that I should deal with this like an adult, and just keep asking her to stop. Previous conversations regarding the Googling always end with, "But it's public information." Which, while true, doesn't mean you should actively seek said information.
The wild card is my Dad. He's a great guy, and I feel so sorry that he has to put up with this on a daily basis. I don't want to start an all-out war, because I don't want him to get caught up in it.
Suggesting therapy never works, as she has a degree in Counseling, which I am absolutely certain she pursued to deflect her actual need for counseling.
What do I do?
throwaway: interstatecrazy@gmail.com
I got an IM from my girlfriend asking if I'd given my mom her mailing address. When I responded in the negative, she then asked why she had received a letter from my mom.
I'm totally floored right now. Not that it's unexpected, my mom Googles all of our family members every once in a while to see if their names are popping up in the news, or elsewhere. But, I checked. None of the online yellowpages have a listing for my girlfriend. We figure she either got the address from the luggage tag at Thanksgiving last month, went through her purse, bought a background check, or used some intergovernemntal database since she works for a municipality.
The letter was regarding Christmas gifts. Apparently Mom wants to try to coordinate something with her. But, she also asked for GF's e-mail address, so they could talk in the future.
Despite the trivial and non-threatening content of the letter, we both feel violated in the privacy department. I haven't actually seen the letter yet, and GF asked me not to confront my mom until the two of us talk (she's not mad at me, at least), but I don't know how to deal with this situation.
Part of me wants to come out shooting with both barrels. Not only a chewing out, but playing into her hand, oversaturating her with the precious, private and personal information she so desires, in every. Explicit. Detail.
The other part of me realizes that I should deal with this like an adult, and just keep asking her to stop. Previous conversations regarding the Googling always end with, "But it's public information." Which, while true, doesn't mean you should actively seek said information.
The wild card is my Dad. He's a great guy, and I feel so sorry that he has to put up with this on a daily basis. I don't want to start an all-out war, because I don't want him to get caught up in it.
Suggesting therapy never works, as she has a degree in Counseling, which I am absolutely certain she pursued to deflect her actual need for counseling.
What do I do?
throwaway: interstatecrazy@gmail.com
I'd start by taking a deep breath and counting to 10. Maybe we're missing some background on your mom. It does seem a little strange, but at least to my ears this by itself wouldn't be something to totally flip out over. Your mom was just trying to arrange some sort of Christmas present surprise for you. To me, that would be a totally valid reason for her to go around you to contact your girlfriend.
posted by alms at 7:39 PM on December 10, 2009 [14 favorites]
posted by alms at 7:39 PM on December 10, 2009 [14 favorites]
(Also-City directories can spit out this kind of info, too. Not hard to use, and they too can do reverse lookups with phone numbers.)
What I would do is tell her (since she has a degree in counseling, and presumably would be intelligent enough to understand this) is that it is rude and creepy feeling for her to look this up without ASKING either you or the gf to provide the info. And that in future you and gf would prefer she do you the courtesy of asking for contact info instead of assuming she has permission to dig it up because otherwise you and gf feel offended. "And feelings are never wrong or right, they just ARE."
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 7:42 PM on December 10, 2009 [4 favorites]
What I would do is tell her (since she has a degree in counseling, and presumably would be intelligent enough to understand this) is that it is rude and creepy feeling for her to look this up without ASKING either you or the gf to provide the info. And that in future you and gf would prefer she do you the courtesy of asking for contact info instead of assuming she has permission to dig it up because otherwise you and gf feel offended. "And feelings are never wrong or right, they just ARE."
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 7:42 PM on December 10, 2009 [4 favorites]
Yeah, I would really calm down. Unless there are other privacy issues at stake here. Human beings usually approach tasks first in terms of whether they CAN be accomplished, and only later in terms of whether they SHOULD be accomplished. Unless your mom has a history of intrusive behavior--that surpasses the intrusive behavior common to most moms--then you just need to suggest this was line crossing. It is only a problem if you mother was previously specifically told NOT to find her address.
posted by jefficator at 7:43 PM on December 10, 2009 [4 favorites]
posted by jefficator at 7:43 PM on December 10, 2009 [4 favorites]
Um, is there some bigger pattern of behaviour here that this is part of? Because otherwise it seems that you are overreacting in a big way, if for no other reason that you don't actually know for sure that your mother found the address by nefarious means.
It doesn't seem weird for a mother to want to co-ordinate presents, and it seems affirming of your relationship with your gf that you mother wants to consult her.
The only weird thing is that she didn't just ask you. But as I say, you don't actually really know that she did something terribly intrusive to find the address.
It just sounds like there is a lot more to your evidently upset reaction than what you're letting on here, and any advice would be better if you could provide that background.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 7:48 PM on December 10, 2009
It doesn't seem weird for a mother to want to co-ordinate presents, and it seems affirming of your relationship with your gf that you mother wants to consult her.
The only weird thing is that she didn't just ask you. But as I say, you don't actually really know that she did something terribly intrusive to find the address.
It just sounds like there is a lot more to your evidently upset reaction than what you're letting on here, and any advice would be better if you could provide that background.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 7:48 PM on December 10, 2009
Yeah I'm with the previous answerers. I wouldn't think it was a big deal to start with, but particularly given that it's Christmas and involves gifts, it seems like even more reason to give her the benefit of the doubt. And speaking of giving that benefit, it's an awful big jump to go from "I have zero information on this" to "I bet she went through her purse or bought a background check." Whaaaa?!
I suggest waiting until after Christmas so that whatever gift planning she might have done won't get ruined, and Christmas won't get ruined, and then ask her about it calmly. "Hey mom, how did you get Girlfriend's address?" Go from there. The answer could be anything at this point. Be like the law and consider her innocent until proven guilty so you can enjoy Christmas without fuming.
From your comments it sounds like there's a whole backstory and history we're not privy to. But as stated, this doesn't sound worthy of a war or a conflict or even a chewing out.
posted by Askr at 7:48 PM on December 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
I suggest waiting until after Christmas so that whatever gift planning she might have done won't get ruined, and Christmas won't get ruined, and then ask her about it calmly. "Hey mom, how did you get Girlfriend's address?" Go from there. The answer could be anything at this point. Be like the law and consider her innocent until proven guilty so you can enjoy Christmas without fuming.
From your comments it sounds like there's a whole backstory and history we're not privy to. But as stated, this doesn't sound worthy of a war or a conflict or even a chewing out.
posted by Askr at 7:48 PM on December 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
You do realize that it's often entirely possible to get this sort of information from a phone book, right?
An address is neither private nor personal.
Previous conversations regarding the Googling always end with, "But it's public information." Which, while true, doesn't mean you should actively seek said information.
Having learned this the hard way over the years (and being a prodigious, skilled, and frequent googler myself), I can assure you that anything you and your girlfriend need to be more careful about what you put online if you're this sensitive about it. The burden rests on your shoulders to be circumspect, not on the public (your mother included) not to look for information about you.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:49 PM on December 10, 2009 [9 favorites]
An address is neither private nor personal.
Previous conversations regarding the Googling always end with, "But it's public information." Which, while true, doesn't mean you should actively seek said information.
Having learned this the hard way over the years (and being a prodigious, skilled, and frequent googler myself), I can assure you that anything you and your girlfriend need to be more careful about what you put online if you're this sensitive about it. The burden rests on your shoulders to be circumspect, not on the public (your mother included) not to look for information about you.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:49 PM on December 10, 2009 [9 favorites]
Nthing the idea that this doesn't seem that strange, and unless there's a backstory, you're (both?) overreacting. It seems like a recognition that you're in a serious relationship and that your mom figures that if she wants to give you a gift that you'll enjoy, your girlfriend is in the best position to give her advice. That's healthy. If she wanted a surprise, and she doesn't have your girlfriend's email or phone number, of course she's going to try some means of contact she already has figured out.
Maybe you should ask Carolyn, with more background details so you don't get the answer you just got from a bunch of Mefites.
posted by brianogilvie at 7:50 PM on December 10, 2009
Maybe you should ask Carolyn, with more background details so you don't get the answer you just got from a bunch of Mefites.
posted by brianogilvie at 7:50 PM on December 10, 2009
It sounds like either you are a bit off the deep end or there is more to the incident you describe.
The incident you describe sounds perfectly innocuous to me, except for the having got the address in a weird way, which you aren't even sure she did. She didn't send anything inappropriate and it was sent after having met your GF at thanksgiving.
If my mom did this I might ask her to run contact with the GF by me first, to make me more comfortable, but sending a letter to someone is hardly an incredible breach of privacy.
I had a GF contact my Mom about gifts for me once, would this be an invasion of privacy to you?
And of course your mom's going to google you and try to keep updated on your life, she's your mom.
posted by pseudonick at 7:51 PM on December 10, 2009
The incident you describe sounds perfectly innocuous to me, except for the having got the address in a weird way, which you aren't even sure she did. She didn't send anything inappropriate and it was sent after having met your GF at thanksgiving.
If my mom did this I might ask her to run contact with the GF by me first, to make me more comfortable, but sending a letter to someone is hardly an incredible breach of privacy.
I had a GF contact my Mom about gifts for me once, would this be an invasion of privacy to you?
And of course your mom's going to google you and try to keep updated on your life, she's your mom.
posted by pseudonick at 7:51 PM on December 10, 2009
Could she have possibly called 411 and asked for the address?
posted by Sys Rq at 7:53 PM on December 10, 2009
posted by Sys Rq at 7:53 PM on December 10, 2009
i'm also on the boat of 'this is really quite normal'. in fact, in your girlfriend's shoes, i'd take it as proof that the mom likes me and considers me part of your life/the family.
if you feel you must confront her about this - make it about your issues and your boundaries, not hers. "mom, i feel a little weird that you got my girlfriend's address without even asking for it - you know how weird i am about privacy/my own space/interpersonal boundaries - so in the future, for my peace of mind - could you ask for information you want. i'll feel a lot less intruded upon that way."
posted by nadawi at 7:58 PM on December 10, 2009 [2 favorites]
if you feel you must confront her about this - make it about your issues and your boundaries, not hers. "mom, i feel a little weird that you got my girlfriend's address without even asking for it - you know how weird i am about privacy/my own space/interpersonal boundaries - so in the future, for my peace of mind - could you ask for information you want. i'll feel a lot less intruded upon that way."
posted by nadawi at 7:58 PM on December 10, 2009 [2 favorites]
Yeah. Agree with all the general sentiment here. Assuming there's no backstory to read into here... Calm the sam hill down. She was just trying to be nice and it was an innocent and benign gesture. There is absolutely no reason to chew her out. All you'd need is a simple "mom, don't look up my girlfriend's info please? I know you meant well, it's just a little weird." Am I wrong to assume that wouldn't be enough?
posted by Lacking Subtlety at 8:01 PM on December 10, 2009
posted by Lacking Subtlety at 8:01 PM on December 10, 2009
As a parent of a 20 yo young woman, I am quite aghast. My wife and I consider it the Prime Directive to stay out of Daughter's romantic life. We would never unilaterally contact her love interest. Plus, she would not take it very well.
I would thank your mom for the consideration (it's great that she's apparently accepting your gf into the family), and then inform her that you expect it to never happen again. She can contact YOU, if she has stuff to talk about.
posted by Danf at 8:06 PM on December 10, 2009 [7 favorites]
I would thank your mom for the consideration (it's great that she's apparently accepting your gf into the family), and then inform her that you expect it to never happen again. She can contact YOU, if she has stuff to talk about.
posted by Danf at 8:06 PM on December 10, 2009 [7 favorites]
I'm also wondering if you are leaving out some crucial background information because this does not seem like the huge transgression the two of you are acting like it is. It is really easy to find someone's snail mail address, and it seems like the motivation for your Mom contacting your girlfriend was innocent, and actually rather sweet. By asking for your girlfriend's email, it seems your Mom wants to start building a relationship with her, which is usually a benign and well-intentioned impulse. There are also far more intrusive ways for you Mom to contact your girlfriend that would actually being unambiguously crossing boundaries and stalking. Since she didn't avail herself of those, I would reconsider your reaction.
First, breathe, both of you, and think long and hard about whether this is something you want to make an issue of because this will effect the entire arc of your Mom's relationship with your girlfriend, and presuming there is long-term potential there, you don't want that to be an acrimonious relationship. After the holidays, if this is still bothering you, ask your mom in a non-confrontational way how she got your girlfriend's address. You can even approach it as being impressed by her mad detective skillz, and unless she admits to some drastic method, I would let this go. It's not like she showed up at your girlfriend's door or work, or she was trying to do something insidious like pump her for truly confidential information about you. Unless there is more to your story, it sounds like your Mom was being, well, a mom who wanted to do something nice for you and become better acquainted with someone who is important in your life.
posted by katemcd at 8:08 PM on December 10, 2009
First, breathe, both of you, and think long and hard about whether this is something you want to make an issue of because this will effect the entire arc of your Mom's relationship with your girlfriend, and presuming there is long-term potential there, you don't want that to be an acrimonious relationship. After the holidays, if this is still bothering you, ask your mom in a non-confrontational way how she got your girlfriend's address. You can even approach it as being impressed by her mad detective skillz, and unless she admits to some drastic method, I would let this go. It's not like she showed up at your girlfriend's door or work, or she was trying to do something insidious like pump her for truly confidential information about you. Unless there is more to your story, it sounds like your Mom was being, well, a mom who wanted to do something nice for you and become better acquainted with someone who is important in your life.
posted by katemcd at 8:08 PM on December 10, 2009
some intergovernemntal database since she works for a municipality.
Yeah, no, this really doesn't exist. Judging from the title, there is more deep background here. You are in college and brought her home for Thanksgiving?
posted by fixedgear at 8:09 PM on December 10, 2009
Yeah, no, this really doesn't exist. Judging from the title, there is more deep background here. You are in college and brought her home for Thanksgiving?
posted by fixedgear at 8:09 PM on December 10, 2009
Let me guess, your mom is one of those crazy-ass parents who does all sorts of weird things to interfere in your life, and anyone looking in on it would go "Oh, but she's so nice!" because they only saw the action and not the giant whacking clump of passive-aggressive, self-serving, crazy-ass context behind it.
Just tell her very firmly that if she wants a friend of yours' address, she needs to ask that friend for it directly. Stick to it. Establish the boundary and don't let her wheedle you. Tell your friends to talk to you first if she makes that sort of request of them, so you can figure out what she's doing.
(Also, I might recommend Understanding the Borderline Mother to you, because it sounds like your mom's preferred methods of interacting with you have some commonalities with BPD sufferers' problems.)
posted by fairytale of los angeles at 8:12 PM on December 10, 2009 [19 favorites]
Just tell her very firmly that if she wants a friend of yours' address, she needs to ask that friend for it directly. Stick to it. Establish the boundary and don't let her wheedle you. Tell your friends to talk to you first if she makes that sort of request of them, so you can figure out what she's doing.
(Also, I might recommend Understanding the Borderline Mother to you, because it sounds like your mom's preferred methods of interacting with you have some commonalities with BPD sufferers' problems.)
posted by fairytale of los angeles at 8:12 PM on December 10, 2009 [19 favorites]
Tell her directly that this seems rude and creepy-- but don't be loud and angry when you do this. Just tell her this with a calm, firm, utterly certain demeanor.
posted by darth_tedious at 8:16 PM on December 10, 2009
posted by darth_tedious at 8:16 PM on December 10, 2009
I'm betting this is part of a larger pattern and your mother has done this kind of thing before. Often. I also suspect she has trouble with boundaries, particularly yours, and invades your privacy constantly (and has since you can remember) under the pretext of "being nice". And outsiders who see her behavior assume she's just the best mother ever and you're overreacting and man, why are you so ungrateful? Calm down! It's not a big deal.
If your mother is anything like mine, it's a very big deal. If my above description of your mother is accurate, then this isn't about the address. It's about triangulation. She's trying to insert herself into your love life by contacting your girlfriend behind your back. And further, she's showing you that you can't withhold information from her--she'll find you! She doesn't even have to ask for it. It's vaguely threatening and wildly inappropriate but what's the harm? It's just about Christmas presents, right?
No.
It only sounds silly and paranoid to people whose parents aren't insane. For those of us with direct experience, it's all too familiar.
Now, if this is the first time she's done something like this, then yeah, you're overreacting. But it isn't, is it? If it were, you wouldn't react this way. You're reacting this way because she does things like this all the time but is smart enough to keep it deniable. She's probably done it your whole life. Yes, it's very inappropriate and yes, you should set a boundary post-haste.
My condolences.
P.S. Understanding the Borderline Mother is awesome, as is Toxic Parents by Susan Forward.
posted by balls at 8:25 PM on December 10, 2009 [30 favorites]
If your mother is anything like mine, it's a very big deal. If my above description of your mother is accurate, then this isn't about the address. It's about triangulation. She's trying to insert herself into your love life by contacting your girlfriend behind your back. And further, she's showing you that you can't withhold information from her--she'll find you! She doesn't even have to ask for it. It's vaguely threatening and wildly inappropriate but what's the harm? It's just about Christmas presents, right?
No.
It only sounds silly and paranoid to people whose parents aren't insane. For those of us with direct experience, it's all too familiar.
Now, if this is the first time she's done something like this, then yeah, you're overreacting. But it isn't, is it? If it were, you wouldn't react this way. You're reacting this way because she does things like this all the time but is smart enough to keep it deniable. She's probably done it your whole life. Yes, it's very inappropriate and yes, you should set a boundary post-haste.
My condolences.
P.S. Understanding the Borderline Mother is awesome, as is Toxic Parents by Susan Forward.
posted by balls at 8:25 PM on December 10, 2009 [30 favorites]
Um, I did this to get addresses for my Christmas cards. A lot. I never considered that I was invading someone's privacy. And if confronted with that issue, I would think this was so off base I would be concerned with the person's state of mind. Obviously, WTF?
posted by raisingsand at 8:32 PM on December 10, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by raisingsand at 8:32 PM on December 10, 2009 [2 favorites]
There's gotta be a backstory here because, on the surface, it sounds like a sweet and fairly normal thing for a mom to do. Short of knowing the backstory, my advice is to not overreact and act surprised when the gift comes.
posted by maniactown at 8:38 PM on December 10, 2009
posted by maniactown at 8:38 PM on December 10, 2009
Oh, and anyone who doubts that a mother could have sinister motives for such an innocent-seeming action needs to read this.
posted by balls at 8:43 PM on December 10, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by balls at 8:43 PM on December 10, 2009 [2 favorites]
I agree completely with fairytale of los angeles, those of us who have mothers like this know it's not an "Awww, how sweet moment" it's just like that post says. It's not sweet, it's messed up and an invasion of privacy. I would be pissed and I would tell your mom why. Although, if she's anything like mine, she will make that into a major drama session with your whole family involved.
I feel for ya.
posted by Polgara at 8:50 PM on December 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
I feel for ya.
posted by Polgara at 8:50 PM on December 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
It could be a lot worse. My boyfriend's mom started sending me letters to the passive-aggressive tune of "Why doesn't my boy call me? Where is he? Is he OK? Please let us know and put our minds at ease!" Please note: she has his email address and cell phone number and could very easily get in touch with him herself anytime she'd like.
So through the missmobtown filter, it sounds like your mom is just trying to coordinate a little Christmas cheer. I would count to ten as others have suggested and maybe give this one a pass. She's might be toeing some sort of line, but it's hard to say what that is unless we know what all the history is. Perhaps a good way to approach this particular transgression with her would be to communicate something like, "Mom, it's fine if you need my girlfriend's address, but it'd be better next time if you just asked one of us for it directly. The back door stuff creeps us out."
posted by missmobtown at 8:53 PM on December 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
So through the missmobtown filter, it sounds like your mom is just trying to coordinate a little Christmas cheer. I would count to ten as others have suggested and maybe give this one a pass. She's might be toeing some sort of line, but it's hard to say what that is unless we know what all the history is. Perhaps a good way to approach this particular transgression with her would be to communicate something like, "Mom, it's fine if you need my girlfriend's address, but it'd be better next time if you just asked one of us for it directly. The back door stuff creeps us out."
posted by missmobtown at 8:53 PM on December 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
My mom stalks me too, and I finally had to yell at her when I posted about a family member dying, and she called me out on it as being callous to post online. Clearly focusing on the wrong thing, but that's neither here nor there.
Bring it up, but since it most likely IS innocuous, just let her know that your GF didn't realize she had her address, and that it's fine, but maybe run it past so she's not confused in the future.
All that being said, how long have you guys been together? It's not uncommon for parents to want to try and be closer to those their children love. Much to the chagrin of some people I love.
posted by CharlesV42 at 9:07 PM on December 10, 2009
Bring it up, but since it most likely IS innocuous, just let her know that your GF didn't realize she had her address, and that it's fine, but maybe run it past so she's not confused in the future.
All that being said, how long have you guys been together? It's not uncommon for parents to want to try and be closer to those their children love. Much to the chagrin of some people I love.
posted by CharlesV42 at 9:07 PM on December 10, 2009
Unless it was registered mail that you had to sign for, there's no way Mommie Dearest will ever know her mail actually got there unless one of you tells her by responding to it. Any further unwanted mails can simply be tossed - unopened, if you like.
posted by flabdablet at 9:13 PM on December 10, 2009
posted by flabdablet at 9:13 PM on December 10, 2009
(thank you balls for the resources)
posted by kch at 9:17 PM on December 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by kch at 9:17 PM on December 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
"What letter? I never received any letter."
posted by rokusan at 9:28 PM on December 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by rokusan at 9:28 PM on December 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
Yeah, people whose mothers are not horrendously, over-the-top invasive really have no idea what it is like. I'd be willing to bet this is just the tip of an enormous iceberg of inappropriate intrusive shenanigans that all sound innocuous individually, but taken as a whole form a crazy quilt of stalking.
Is the address your girlfriend's actual physical address? Is it within a four or five hour drive? If those answers are yes, you will have to confront her. If not, I would just ignore it. She is not going to change.
In confronting her, you're going to have to flatly tell her that you don't want her attempting to contact your girlfriend. If she's anything like a *cough* friend of mine's mom, she will have a huge tantrum, be angry at you for a couple of months and then do it again, or something similar in six months or a year.
I'm hoping that you don't have to confront her, myself. I'd also give your girlfriend all your mom's numbers so she can screen her calls for a while.
posted by winna at 9:28 PM on December 10, 2009
Is the address your girlfriend's actual physical address? Is it within a four or five hour drive? If those answers are yes, you will have to confront her. If not, I would just ignore it. She is not going to change.
In confronting her, you're going to have to flatly tell her that you don't want her attempting to contact your girlfriend. If she's anything like a *cough* friend of mine's mom, she will have a huge tantrum, be angry at you for a couple of months and then do it again, or something similar in six months or a year.
I'm hoping that you don't have to confront her, myself. I'd also give your girlfriend all your mom's numbers so she can screen her calls for a while.
posted by winna at 9:28 PM on December 10, 2009
In the absence of more back story, I think it's impossible to conclude whether this represents the tip of the iceberg of maternal crazy-making, or whether this is a epic overreaction on the part of Anon and girlfriend. (And I say this as someone with a mother who almost certainly falls somewhere on the NPD scale.) Anon, I'd suggest you follow up with one of the mods so that folks can weigh in with advice that doesn't have to rely on so much guesswork.
posted by scody at 9:53 PM on December 10, 2009 [5 favorites]
posted by scody at 9:53 PM on December 10, 2009 [5 favorites]
Part of me wants to come out shooting with both barrels. Not only a chewing out, but playing into her hand, oversaturating her with the precious, private and personal information she so desires, in every. Explicit. Detail.
This makes me think there must be more going on here than just "my mom looked up my girlfriend's address". Lots of people look up other people's addresses, and particularly in the older generation, they're just used to looking up this type of information. Totally non-creepy.
The best thing you can do is just try to be normal yourself. Don't come out guns-a-blazing with every inappropriate personal detail of your relationship, because then you're the one acting crazy. Just keep being normal, and set appropriate limits if she has a habit of overstepping her bounds.
posted by eleyna at 10:02 PM on December 10, 2009
This makes me think there must be more going on here than just "my mom looked up my girlfriend's address". Lots of people look up other people's addresses, and particularly in the older generation, they're just used to looking up this type of information. Totally non-creepy.
The best thing you can do is just try to be normal yourself. Don't come out guns-a-blazing with every inappropriate personal detail of your relationship, because then you're the one acting crazy. Just keep being normal, and set appropriate limits if she has a habit of overstepping her bounds.
posted by eleyna at 10:02 PM on December 10, 2009
Googling is one thing, searching for hard to find public data is another. This is a warning shot to your girlfriend by your mom. If I were gf, I would have to reconsider my relationship with you if I wanted it to be permanent even if she loves you to death. Under the guise of doing good, your mom is telling her to keep away.
Ask your mom politely but firmly to back off.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 12:22 AM on December 11, 2009
Ask your mom politely but firmly to back off.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 12:22 AM on December 11, 2009
i also have a mom with a tenuous grasp on boundaries. i think it's important to hear "this isn't so crazy" because when you have a mom that displays borderline behaviors, it's easy to skew what normal is and isn't. i can understand wanting to pick a fight over this and stand your ground (and again, if you feel you have to, make it about ~you~ not ~her~, it's the only hope it has of working), but it might weaken your position in the long run/kick up more drama than it's worth.
posted by nadawi at 12:28 AM on December 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by nadawi at 12:28 AM on December 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
Looking up someones address to send them an innocuous letter is not stalking. It sounds like your mom wanted to do something nice for you for Christmas and wanted to involve your girlfriend. Which is actually thoughtful and cool. You're overreacting in a big way.
This.
Purely going on what you've told us, you're majorly overreacting (you even go so far as to accuse her of abusing her position at work!). Googling your family members is not weird or creepy. You don't want your mum googling you to see what you're up to? - call her every once in a while and keep her in the loop.
She wanted to co-ordinate gifts (presumably for you) with your girlfriend - not an unreasonable thing to want to do, she can't go through you because that would spoil the surprise. Its seems most likely that she saw your girlfriend's luggage tags at Thanksgiving and copied it down already knowing that she was needing to talk to your girlfriend to co-ordinate gifts.
Maybe there's more history here but from what you've posted, you're overreacting to perfectly normal, reasonable behaviour, for all we know the rest of this history is you overreacting to your mum taking a perfectly normal interest in the lives of her children.
posted by missmagenta at 2:18 AM on December 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
This.
Purely going on what you've told us, you're majorly overreacting (you even go so far as to accuse her of abusing her position at work!). Googling your family members is not weird or creepy. You don't want your mum googling you to see what you're up to? - call her every once in a while and keep her in the loop.
She wanted to co-ordinate gifts (presumably for you) with your girlfriend - not an unreasonable thing to want to do, she can't go through you because that would spoil the surprise. Its seems most likely that she saw your girlfriend's luggage tags at Thanksgiving and copied it down already knowing that she was needing to talk to your girlfriend to co-ordinate gifts.
Maybe there's more history here but from what you've posted, you're overreacting to perfectly normal, reasonable behaviour, for all we know the rest of this history is you overreacting to your mum taking a perfectly normal interest in the lives of her children.
posted by missmagenta at 2:18 AM on December 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
My mom does shit like this all the time. Drives me crazy but she's still my mom. I tell her it's innapropriate.
Has your mom met your GF? My new GF's dad emailed me out of the blue to thank me for some music I sent to him via the GF. He found my email address on an email he sent her.
I don't know...if you don't hate your mom, then I don't think this is such a big deal. Annoying mom-like behavior, maybe. Why is your GF so freaked out?
posted by sully75 at 4:00 AM on December 11, 2009
Has your mom met your GF? My new GF's dad emailed me out of the blue to thank me for some music I sent to him via the GF. He found my email address on an email he sent her.
I don't know...if you don't hate your mom, then I don't think this is such a big deal. Annoying mom-like behavior, maybe. Why is your GF so freaked out?
posted by sully75 at 4:00 AM on December 11, 2009
You're flipping out because your mom emailed your girlfriend about gift coordination and you don 't know how she got the address? What on earth is wrong with your relationship with your mom that you want to come out 'shooting with both barrels'?
Email addresses are all over the place. If you had my first and last name, you could probably get mine in ten minutes. Six months ago, I searched a friend I hadn't talked to in ten years, got her business email, and shot her a 'just wanted to say hi' email. The distance between, hey, I should send Ang an email' and actually sending the email was about five minutes. She responded in another five. That's the world we live in. Email addresses aren't private, just because we don't have a big email address phone book out there.
There's nothing at all remarkable about this. Other than Googling, ways your mom could have found it including asking another family member, or a friend, or you could have spaced and forwarded an email at some point.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 4:12 AM on December 11, 2009
Email addresses are all over the place. If you had my first and last name, you could probably get mine in ten minutes. Six months ago, I searched a friend I hadn't talked to in ten years, got her business email, and shot her a 'just wanted to say hi' email. The distance between, hey, I should send Ang an email' and actually sending the email was about five minutes. She responded in another five. That's the world we live in. Email addresses aren't private, just because we don't have a big email address phone book out there.
There's nothing at all remarkable about this. Other than Googling, ways your mom could have found it including asking another family member, or a friend, or you could have spaced and forwarded an email at some point.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 4:12 AM on December 11, 2009
Wait a minute, this is a mailing address? Then Zabasearch. Everything else applies.
But even more likely, the database you said she has access to.
The person I'm feeling really sorry for is your mom, unless you've left out some truly major details. I guess from your title, mom has boundary issues. I sympathize. I had to move far away from my boundary-less mom as well, but now that I'm older I can see her better and understand my role in some of our dynamic as well. Coming out 'with both guns' isn't an appropriate response, whatever the circumstance, between two adults. If your problem here is indeed less your mom having the address than a practice of not really seeing you as an adult, the place for changing that is with you.
As you noted, you can't change other people.
And for the record, most moms have slightly off boundaries that they have to work on, it helps them do the things they have to do like clean the poo off your butt when your small and keep you from being torn to bits by dogs on a day to day basis.
So I encourage you to take a broader view of this situation.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 4:20 AM on December 11, 2009
But even more likely, the database you said she has access to.
The person I'm feeling really sorry for is your mom, unless you've left out some truly major details. I guess from your title, mom has boundary issues. I sympathize. I had to move far away from my boundary-less mom as well, but now that I'm older I can see her better and understand my role in some of our dynamic as well. Coming out 'with both guns' isn't an appropriate response, whatever the circumstance, between two adults. If your problem here is indeed less your mom having the address than a practice of not really seeing you as an adult, the place for changing that is with you.
As you noted, you can't change other people.
And for the record, most moms have slightly off boundaries that they have to work on, it helps them do the things they have to do like clean the poo off your butt when your small and keep you from being torn to bits by dogs on a day to day basis.
So I encourage you to take a broader view of this situation.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 4:20 AM on December 11, 2009
Llama, he specifically says it's her mailing address, not her email.
Anyway, I don't really have anything to add here. If this is part of a general trend in her behavior, yeah, you should probably confront her about it.
If it's an isolated incident, then I don't really see the problem.
posted by Target Practice at 4:34 AM on December 11, 2009
Anyway, I don't really have anything to add here. If this is part of a general trend in her behavior, yeah, you should probably confront her about it.
If it's an isolated incident, then I don't really see the problem.
posted by Target Practice at 4:34 AM on December 11, 2009
Personally, I think it's inappropriate. I think she should have just asked you for the mailing address. It just seems intrusive to me to find info out about a person through other sources like that when it should be available face to face.
That being said, the world is changing. For instance, my gf's ex met a girl at a store she worked and started chatting with her. When he went home, he looked for her on Myspace (she had an uncommon first name) and left her a message on there. She hadn't given him her Myspace info. My girlfriend is totally fine with this, in her mind "that's what Myspace is for". I, on the other hand was completely freaked out by his crazy stalker behavior. Of course, I don't social network either and would have just asked for her number/email/whatever.
I think if you have a problem with it, I think you have the right to tell your mom not to approach your girlfriends like that, but I don't know if it's inherently rude or not.
posted by cali59 at 4:42 AM on December 11, 2009
That being said, the world is changing. For instance, my gf's ex met a girl at a store she worked and started chatting with her. When he went home, he looked for her on Myspace (she had an uncommon first name) and left her a message on there. She hadn't given him her Myspace info. My girlfriend is totally fine with this, in her mind "that's what Myspace is for". I, on the other hand was completely freaked out by his crazy stalker behavior. Of course, I don't social network either and would have just asked for her number/email/whatever.
I think if you have a problem with it, I think you have the right to tell your mom not to approach your girlfriends like that, but I don't know if it's inherently rude or not.
posted by cali59 at 4:42 AM on December 11, 2009
Seconding what nadawi said. Both my mother and Mr. WanKenobi's mother have boundary issues, too (do I sympathize with the poster whose boyfriend's mom contacts her to find out about the boyfriends whereabouts--try marrying the guy!). But what you're talking about here is not an example of crossed boundaries--again, an address is public information, and (like other information that might be found via googling) should not be expected to be kept private--and here, it sounds like you guys are holding your mother to a higher standard than you can reasonably hold your high school reunion committee.
When setting boundaries, a big part of it is picking your battles and fighting them when it's really important. This is, in part, because, as kathrineg says, reacting to the behavior only encourages it--and so over-reacting to small "infractions" or even non-infractions is only going to show that she can get lots of attention for what you view as information mining. The appropriate response is not to react until you have a real example of transgressive behavior, in which case you need to also keep your cool as you re-draw the appropriate boundaries with her.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 4:57 AM on December 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
When setting boundaries, a big part of it is picking your battles and fighting them when it's really important. This is, in part, because, as kathrineg says, reacting to the behavior only encourages it--and so over-reacting to small "infractions" or even non-infractions is only going to show that she can get lots of attention for what you view as information mining. The appropriate response is not to react until you have a real example of transgressive behavior, in which case you need to also keep your cool as you re-draw the appropriate boundaries with her.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 4:57 AM on December 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
I think she should have just asked you for the mailing address
If she did, she'd then have to come up with a convincing lie as to why she needed the address. A lie so convincing that he couldn't possibly say no.
posted by missmagenta at 5:05 AM on December 11, 2009 [2 favorites]
If she did, she'd then have to come up with a convincing lie as to why she needed the address. A lie so convincing that he couldn't possibly say no.
posted by missmagenta at 5:05 AM on December 11, 2009 [2 favorites]
I'm betting it was a Zabasearch, not a paid background check and not a work-related database for which she could be fired for using for non-work related purposes. I used Zabasearch just yesterday to get the address of a friend with no landline. I have his address at home. I just didn't have it with me and needed it for something Christmas related.
As far as Googling information and your desire for her to not do it, you have no control over her actions in that regard. If you and your girlfriend don't want her to find publicly available information on you, then maintain pseudonym internet usage and do everything you can to minimize your available information. Do regular Google searches on yourself so you know what's out there and what you can get removed.
posted by onhazier at 6:32 AM on December 11, 2009
As far as Googling information and your desire for her to not do it, you have no control over her actions in that regard. If you and your girlfriend don't want her to find publicly available information on you, then maintain pseudonym internet usage and do everything you can to minimize your available information. Do regular Google searches on yourself so you know what's out there and what you can get removed.
posted by onhazier at 6:32 AM on December 11, 2009
Your mom is bored, not crazy. She needs a hobby.
posted by Pollomacho at 7:29 AM on December 11, 2009
posted by Pollomacho at 7:29 AM on December 11, 2009
Agreed that if this is your mom's general pattern, than you have every right to be angry and feel violated. But getting really really angry and freaking out on her probably isn't going to work if she's got boundary issues- she may actually be wanting this kind of attention and in a weird twisted way, it may encourage her to keep doing stuff like this. My advice, if this is any type of pattern, is to ignore it completely. Or work on boundary setting in a constructive way. You have every right if she asks to say "Oh, we never got a letter like that. Must have gotten lost" or just simply "Mom, we'd prefer if you contacted us by phone or email from now on, OK?" Don't feed the fire, I've been there and usually just go down in flames with the crazy person at the other end.
posted by Rocket26 at 7:57 AM on December 11, 2009
posted by Rocket26 at 7:57 AM on December 11, 2009
She didn't ask you because she didn't want you to know about it. She's trying to hook up with your girlfriend to come up with your Christmas present. She quite deliberately didn't ask you for the contact info, so she had to come up with it through other means - and as noted there are plenty of these that don't involve sleeping with someone at the NSA or whatever you fear is going on.
If you really want to know, have your girlfriend ask her how she found her without going through you. Assuming your girlfriend is going to cooperate in the fun surprise gift giving.
Man, I'm glad I'm not responsible for organizing a surprise party for you.
posted by Naberius at 8:11 AM on December 11, 2009
If you really want to know, have your girlfriend ask her how she found her without going through you. Assuming your girlfriend is going to cooperate in the fun surprise gift giving.
Man, I'm glad I'm not responsible for organizing a surprise party for you.
posted by Naberius at 8:11 AM on December 11, 2009
If you think looking up someone's address and sending them a letter about co-ordinating Christmas gifts for a mutal loved one is stalking, then you are the one that needs counseling.
posted by WeekendJen at 8:18 AM on December 11, 2009
posted by WeekendJen at 8:18 AM on December 11, 2009
The problem here is not the seemingly innocent wish to coordinate Xmas presents; it's the manner in which his mother acquired his girlfriend's home address. I know that for my own part, while I do things a lot online, no one can just "Google" my home address. I don't even hand it out to Facebook friends unless I've met them face to face and I am giving the info via personal message or email.
I do think it is inappropriate to acquire people's addresses through some underhanded way, as opposed to asking them directly. I don't care if it's for an innocent purpose. You want to send someone a letter, ask them for their address. If you can't do that for some reason, then the likelihood is that you should not be sending them anything in the first place.
If your mom is a basket case in this regard, which certainly seems to be the case, there are better pieces of advice already handed out in this thread, but I, too, would emphasize that you should not shove every excruciating detail about your sex life down her throat, because while it might feel good at the time to let all that anger out, ultimately it's just going to inflame the situation further.
posted by Unhyper at 8:19 AM on December 11, 2009
I do think it is inappropriate to acquire people's addresses through some underhanded way, as opposed to asking them directly. I don't care if it's for an innocent purpose. You want to send someone a letter, ask them for their address. If you can't do that for some reason, then the likelihood is that you should not be sending them anything in the first place.
If your mom is a basket case in this regard, which certainly seems to be the case, there are better pieces of advice already handed out in this thread, but I, too, would emphasize that you should not shove every excruciating detail about your sex life down her throat, because while it might feel good at the time to let all that anger out, ultimately it's just going to inflame the situation further.
posted by Unhyper at 8:19 AM on December 11, 2009
*Suggesting therapy never works, as she has a degree in Counseling, which I am absolutely certain she pursued to deflect her actual need for counseling.*
Just had to say that this is a classic line and probably very true.
Tell her what she did was a bit creepy and move on. Now I have to go back trying to find old girlfriends on Facebook...bye.
posted by teg4rvn at 8:19 AM on December 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
Just had to say that this is a classic line and probably very true.
Tell her what she did was a bit creepy and move on. Now I have to go back trying to find old girlfriends on Facebook...bye.
posted by teg4rvn at 8:19 AM on December 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
Remember, anonymous, that counseling and therapy are not just solutions for OTHER people. You can and should pursue those things for yourself, since this is an issue that you are having so much trouble coping with. Parents with boundary issues are a very difficult issue to deal with, and those of us who grew up under them are usually laden with boundary issues of our own that we need help with.
Because I grew up in a family with no healthy boundaries, I grew up unable to set boundaries. It wasn't until I started to deal with my alcoholism that I first confronted the issue of control and proper boundary setting. But that growth didn't extend to my parents. They both still have serious boundary issues, and probably always will. It helps me immensely to have someone to talk to about these things as they arise. It keeps me from coming at them with both barrels because I think in some sad way, they want us to react in an emotionally volatile way.
But I would also echo the other posters who have said that you need to examine this from a very objective standpoint. The information she obtained is readily available from any number of sources that people have cited. And you need to realize that - while your mother might have serious, damaging, awful, boundary issues - this probably is not actually a good example of them.
posted by greekphilosophy at 8:34 AM on December 11, 2009 [2 favorites]
Because I grew up in a family with no healthy boundaries, I grew up unable to set boundaries. It wasn't until I started to deal with my alcoholism that I first confronted the issue of control and proper boundary setting. But that growth didn't extend to my parents. They both still have serious boundary issues, and probably always will. It helps me immensely to have someone to talk to about these things as they arise. It keeps me from coming at them with both barrels because I think in some sad way, they want us to react in an emotionally volatile way.
But I would also echo the other posters who have said that you need to examine this from a very objective standpoint. The information she obtained is readily available from any number of sources that people have cited. And you need to realize that - while your mother might have serious, damaging, awful, boundary issues - this probably is not actually a good example of them.
posted by greekphilosophy at 8:34 AM on December 11, 2009 [2 favorites]
Yeah, I know a lot of people think this is sweet, but I think going behind your back was a bit of an invasion. My oldest son is just 16 and of course lives at home, and has a long-term girlfriend, and if I want to know anything about her I would still ask him first and also check that it was okay, because parents are frequently embarrassing to their children without even meaning to be.
And if there is a history, then that would explain your getting overheated about this. Given your girlfriend's reaction (not the "Aw, that's sweet," that others have had, but "WTF?!"), I'd assume there is.
But getting angry and going off half-cocked won't help the situation. So call your Mom, ask her if there's any information she needs FROM YOU. Let her know that your girlfriend was a bit upset at the way she was contacted, so next time Mom needs to route communication through you, so that you can let girlfriend know Mom will be contacting her first.
posted by misha at 8:38 AM on December 11, 2009
And if there is a history, then that would explain your getting overheated about this. Given your girlfriend's reaction (not the "Aw, that's sweet," that others have had, but "WTF?!"), I'd assume there is.
But getting angry and going off half-cocked won't help the situation. So call your Mom, ask her if there's any information she needs FROM YOU. Let her know that your girlfriend was a bit upset at the way she was contacted, so next time Mom needs to route communication through you, so that you can let girlfriend know Mom will be contacting her first.
posted by misha at 8:38 AM on December 11, 2009
Yeah, contacting your girlfriend directly rather than through you would certainly be a crossed line with me, and even if people here thinks it's harmless, the OP asked her to stop. She refused by not addressing the issue, but just saying it's public information.
Tell her that her meddling causes problems between you and your girlfriend and that if for some reason she needs to talk to her, it should be through you.
posted by spaltavian at 8:44 AM on December 11, 2009 [3 favorites]
Tell her that her meddling causes problems between you and your girlfriend and that if for some reason she needs to talk to her, it should be through you.
posted by spaltavian at 8:44 AM on December 11, 2009 [3 favorites]
But what you're talking about here is not an example of crossed boundaries--
It is if OP has asked his/her mother to stop doing this and she refuses. Boundaries vary from person to person. This sort of back-door information gathering and unsolicited mailing bothers OP and he's told her to stop. That's a boundary. She's refused to stop and did it again. That's a boundary violation.
It's not what she did, but the fact that she's doing it despite OP repeatedly asking her not to do it. That's what makes it violating. OP's mother is showing OP that his/her boundaries are less important than OP's mother's desire to send something to the girlfriend's home. HUGE red flag and totally not okay.
posted by balls at 9:07 AM on December 11, 2009 [3 favorites]
It is if OP has asked his/her mother to stop doing this and she refuses. Boundaries vary from person to person. This sort of back-door information gathering and unsolicited mailing bothers OP and he's told her to stop. That's a boundary. She's refused to stop and did it again. That's a boundary violation.
It's not what she did, but the fact that she's doing it despite OP repeatedly asking her not to do it. That's what makes it violating. OP's mother is showing OP that his/her boundaries are less important than OP's mother's desire to send something to the girlfriend's home. HUGE red flag and totally not okay.
posted by balls at 9:07 AM on December 11, 2009 [3 favorites]
You are majorly overreacting. Lots of people "google stalk" other people in their lives, or even people who used to be part of their lives, on a semi-regular basis. It's just another way of checking in on your history, what other people are up to, etc. And yes, it *is* all public information. That's why people who are concerned about being google stalked get antsy about keeping information about themselves off the internet. So overall I think that what she did most recently is not an issue. There have got to be other issues we don't know about, though. Focus on them and not this.
Or basically, IF there's a boundary issue (and not a "your girlfriend is crazy but you love her so you're taking her side even though it's irrational and you need to reevaluate the situation for a second" issue, or some other issue), then what PhoBWanKenobi said. I think balls's advice, while I can relate to it, is coming at this from an angle of being hyper-reactive to this sort of thing. Yes it's awful to have someone do things that are vaguely threatening and invasive all the time, but also it's important to keep in mind that appropriate, consistent boundary-setting and NOT reacting harshly to every little thing are what will keep you sane.
posted by lorrer at 9:13 AM on December 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
Or basically, IF there's a boundary issue (and not a "your girlfriend is crazy but you love her so you're taking her side even though it's irrational and you need to reevaluate the situation for a second" issue, or some other issue), then what PhoBWanKenobi said. I think balls's advice, while I can relate to it, is coming at this from an angle of being hyper-reactive to this sort of thing. Yes it's awful to have someone do things that are vaguely threatening and invasive all the time, but also it's important to keep in mind that appropriate, consistent boundary-setting and NOT reacting harshly to every little thing are what will keep you sane.
posted by lorrer at 9:13 AM on December 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
Wow, it looks like there are a lot of people here who have totally normal parents who are not batshitinsane. Congratulations, everyone! Please realize how incredibly lucky you are that you have parents like that. Not all of us do. Some of us have mildly crazy parents whose antics are usually tolerable (yet maddening), and some of us have scarily crazy parents that we actually have to hide from.
OP, I don't think you're out of line in feeling weird about this. From what you wrote it sounds like your mom asked your GF for her email address at Thanksgiving so they could communicate, but then this letter arrives at your GF's physical mailing address out of the blue. That would bother the hell out of me, too -- why did she need to go to the trouble of finding your GF's mailing address and sending her a letter when she already had a way to contact her? That's pretty messed up, and along with the title of your post and the previous conversations you've had with her, it indicates that your mom has some boundary issues. That, combined with what you mentioned about your mother having her own counseling degree yet being very resistant to going to therapy herself... that screams borderline personality disorder to me. (IANAD and obviously IAN your mother's D.)
A couple of people upthread have posted some very helpful links to more information about dealing with a parent with BPD. Definitely go check those out -- even if she never gets a diagnosis from a professional that confirms she does have BPD, you can still use the information in those links to help you learn to deal with her. One thing you're going to have to do is lay down firm boundaries and stick to them, which it sounds like you've been trying to do -- good work, keep at it. Don't flip out and scream at her, just let her know that she needs to ask you directly for things and not sneak around behind your back, for starters.
Don't pay any heed to the folks here who are in such a rush to tell you what a bad son you are.
posted by palomar at 9:41 AM on December 11, 2009 [2 favorites]
OP, I don't think you're out of line in feeling weird about this. From what you wrote it sounds like your mom asked your GF for her email address at Thanksgiving so they could communicate, but then this letter arrives at your GF's physical mailing address out of the blue. That would bother the hell out of me, too -- why did she need to go to the trouble of finding your GF's mailing address and sending her a letter when she already had a way to contact her? That's pretty messed up, and along with the title of your post and the previous conversations you've had with her, it indicates that your mom has some boundary issues. That, combined with what you mentioned about your mother having her own counseling degree yet being very resistant to going to therapy herself... that screams borderline personality disorder to me. (IANAD and obviously IAN your mother's D.)
A couple of people upthread have posted some very helpful links to more information about dealing with a parent with BPD. Definitely go check those out -- even if she never gets a diagnosis from a professional that confirms she does have BPD, you can still use the information in those links to help you learn to deal with her. One thing you're going to have to do is lay down firm boundaries and stick to them, which it sounds like you've been trying to do -- good work, keep at it. Don't flip out and scream at her, just let her know that she needs to ask you directly for things and not sneak around behind your back, for starters.
Don't pay any heed to the folks here who are in such a rush to tell you what a bad son you are.
posted by palomar at 9:41 AM on December 11, 2009 [2 favorites]
Don't come out shooting with both barrels, or you'll be a mighty regretful cowboy.
If you think there's any chance she'll hear you, broach the subject calmly but firmly with Mom.
But, like Rokusan, I frankly recommend just pretending your GF never got the letter. This will hopefully oblige her to come out and ask you or your GF about it, which is what she should have done in the first place. Put the ball back in her court.
posted by Paris Elk at 9:49 AM on December 11, 2009
If you think there's any chance she'll hear you, broach the subject calmly but firmly with Mom.
But, like Rokusan, I frankly recommend just pretending your GF never got the letter. This will hopefully oblige her to come out and ask you or your GF about it, which is what she should have done in the first place. Put the ball back in her court.
posted by Paris Elk at 9:49 AM on December 11, 2009
This sort of back-door information gathering and unsolicited mailing bothers OP and he's told her to stop.
He hasn't told her not to mail his girlfriend--he told her not to google people, which is something that many people would see as an unreasonable request because, as much as we'd like to all think that information about us on the internet is private, it's actually completely public. And, as eleyna points out, there's a generational difference at work here: there was a time when it was considered totally normal to look up phone numbers and addresses in the phone book or via 411. This isn't mom going through OP's diary or bedroom or even phoning the girlfriend out of the blue to check up on him; in fact, a polite letter from a distance of 2,000 miles is just about as unobtrusive as you can get.
From what you wrote it sounds like your mom asked your GF for her email address at Thanksgiving so they could communicate, but then this letter arrives at your GF's physical mailing address out of the blue. That would bother the hell out of me, too -- why did she need to go to the trouble of finding your GF's mailing address and sending her a letter when she already had a way to contact her?
Actually, it says that she asked for her e-mail address in the letter. It sounds like the mom didn't have any way to contact her otherwise.
Wow, it looks like there are a lot of people here who have totally normal parents who are not batshitinsane. Congratulations, everyone! Please realize how incredibly lucky you are that you have parents like that. Not all of us do. Some of us have mildly crazy parents whose antics are usually tolerable (yet maddening), and some of us have scarily crazy parents that we actually have to hide from.
If you read the responses here more closely, a few people who said this seems normal also said they have fairly crazy, boundary-crossing parents. But given the information here--which amounts to the mom googling people, finding an address and writing a polite letter, and having a counseling degree--the OP's reaction seems extremely out there and over-the-top: "Part of me wants to come out shooting with both barrels. Not only a chewing out, but playing into her hand, oversaturating her with the precious, private and personal information she so desires, in every. Explicit. Detail." That level of anger and rage over this is frankly, to me, scary and bizarre. Perhaps that's because we weren't given enough information, but all we can do is respond to what's here, particularly as OP's question is really "Is this okay?" Personally, I don't feel like my anecdata about my mother looking for condoms in my room in college so that she could lecture me about whether I was ready to have sex in front of her friends would be helpful here--or even relevant, given the information we have.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:46 AM on December 11, 2009 [4 favorites]
He hasn't told her not to mail his girlfriend--he told her not to google people, which is something that many people would see as an unreasonable request because, as much as we'd like to all think that information about us on the internet is private, it's actually completely public. And, as eleyna points out, there's a generational difference at work here: there was a time when it was considered totally normal to look up phone numbers and addresses in the phone book or via 411. This isn't mom going through OP's diary or bedroom or even phoning the girlfriend out of the blue to check up on him; in fact, a polite letter from a distance of 2,000 miles is just about as unobtrusive as you can get.
From what you wrote it sounds like your mom asked your GF for her email address at Thanksgiving so they could communicate, but then this letter arrives at your GF's physical mailing address out of the blue. That would bother the hell out of me, too -- why did she need to go to the trouble of finding your GF's mailing address and sending her a letter when she already had a way to contact her?
Actually, it says that she asked for her e-mail address in the letter. It sounds like the mom didn't have any way to contact her otherwise.
Wow, it looks like there are a lot of people here who have totally normal parents who are not batshitinsane. Congratulations, everyone! Please realize how incredibly lucky you are that you have parents like that. Not all of us do. Some of us have mildly crazy parents whose antics are usually tolerable (yet maddening), and some of us have scarily crazy parents that we actually have to hide from.
If you read the responses here more closely, a few people who said this seems normal also said they have fairly crazy, boundary-crossing parents. But given the information here--which amounts to the mom googling people, finding an address and writing a polite letter, and having a counseling degree--the OP's reaction seems extremely out there and over-the-top: "Part of me wants to come out shooting with both barrels. Not only a chewing out, but playing into her hand, oversaturating her with the precious, private and personal information she so desires, in every. Explicit. Detail." That level of anger and rage over this is frankly, to me, scary and bizarre. Perhaps that's because we weren't given enough information, but all we can do is respond to what's here, particularly as OP's question is really "Is this okay?" Personally, I don't feel like my anecdata about my mother looking for condoms in my room in college so that she could lecture me about whether I was ready to have sex in front of her friends would be helpful here--or even relevant, given the information we have.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:46 AM on December 11, 2009 [4 favorites]
It may be scary and bizarre to you, but having a mother with BPD that I've had to cut out of my life for my own personal safety (someone who started out just like this guy's mom), it just sounds like extreme frustration.
And the responses like "I'm sure glad I never have to plan a surprise party for you" or "You're upset over nothing, you're the one who needs counseling" are in no way helpful.
posted by palomar at 10:56 AM on December 11, 2009 [2 favorites]
And the responses like "I'm sure glad I never have to plan a surprise party for you" or "You're upset over nothing, you're the one who needs counseling" are in no way helpful.
posted by palomar at 10:56 AM on December 11, 2009 [2 favorites]
ergh -- it just sounds like extreme frustration to me. can i get a 3-minute edit pony now pls?
posted by palomar at 10:57 AM on December 11, 2009
posted by palomar at 10:57 AM on December 11, 2009
(Palomar, I wouldn't mind a 3-minute window either, because I realize that may not have been clear; I have no doubt to someone whose mother is borderline, that sounds normal. However, my point is that, given the information we have here without a lot of projecting, we just can't confirm that this is an abnormal act on her part or an over-blown reaction on his; maybe the real answer is something that was hinted at in the first several replies--we just don't have enough information to answer either way.)
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 11:02 AM on December 11, 2009
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 11:02 AM on December 11, 2009
I understand where you're coming from, anonymous, and I don't think you're overreacting. but I'm with Paris Elk and Rokusan. If this is the extent of this foray, pretend you never got it. Don't fuel the drama. If she gets more aggressive (like calling your gf over and over or whatever your personal line is) you might have to pull out some bigger boundary guns.
I suspect that if you blow things up, she'll just act all confused and hurt and will tell everyone in the world what a Mean MEAN son she has, when all she was trying to do was....
However, speaking for myself, showing her how angry you are or even trying to explain at all, will just give her traction for more infractions.
Just accept that this is the way she is. Draw your boundaries. Defend them with zero drama and minimal explanation. People who really know her (like your family) will know she's not the innocent victim here.
posted by small_ruminant at 11:15 AM on December 11, 2009 [2 favorites]
I suspect that if you blow things up, she'll just act all confused and hurt and will tell everyone in the world what a Mean MEAN son she has, when all she was trying to do was....
However, speaking for myself, showing her how angry you are or even trying to explain at all, will just give her traction for more infractions.
Just accept that this is the way she is. Draw your boundaries. Defend them with zero drama and minimal explanation. People who really know her (like your family) will know she's not the innocent victim here.
posted by small_ruminant at 11:15 AM on December 11, 2009 [2 favorites]
My mother used my e-mail address to sign me up for a ton of health-related (and weird "cleansing the body of disease") newsletters after she Googled me and found me on some online forums where I discussed having had surgery for endometriosis. Now THAT is boundary-crossing. (I know she did it because she later asked me about whether I had received them.) Lesson learned -- and now I use a throwaway email address for anything personal online.
I don't think you're overreacting, either, but I would just pretend your girlfriend never got the letter either. Don't feed the troll.
posted by vickyverky at 11:26 AM on December 11, 2009
I don't think you're overreacting, either, but I would just pretend your girlfriend never got the letter either. Don't feed the troll.
posted by vickyverky at 11:26 AM on December 11, 2009
She doesn't have another way to contact the girlfriend for a reason. Because the girlfriend does not want to be contacted.
Or, they live far away and the mom has never had reason to ask for the address before. Or they haven't been dating that long and it hasn't come up before. Who's to say? I was dating my SO for four years before I think my mother had his address--not because he didn't want her to, but because there had never been any reason for her to have it before then. I'm not saying that's what was going on, but I can understand how someone might not believe that they don't have someone's address because it's purposefully being kept from them.
Would sending this letter be okay if it were his acquaintance? Friend? Boss? Neighbor? Ex?
Maybe--maybe not. It depends on the situation and surrounding context.
How do you know what relationship they have, and what is okay in the context of their relationship? You don't.
Right. I don't, but none of us really do. The OP specifically asked if this behavior was normal, though, and it's pretty clear here that many of the people saying "Yes, this is normal" aren't saying it to be dismissive or cruel but because they truly believe that's the best answer given the information we have.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 11:38 AM on December 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
Or, they live far away and the mom has never had reason to ask for the address before. Or they haven't been dating that long and it hasn't come up before. Who's to say? I was dating my SO for four years before I think my mother had his address--not because he didn't want her to, but because there had never been any reason for her to have it before then. I'm not saying that's what was going on, but I can understand how someone might not believe that they don't have someone's address because it's purposefully being kept from them.
Would sending this letter be okay if it were his acquaintance? Friend? Boss? Neighbor? Ex?
Maybe--maybe not. It depends on the situation and surrounding context.
How do you know what relationship they have, and what is okay in the context of their relationship? You don't.
Right. I don't, but none of us really do. The OP specifically asked if this behavior was normal, though, and it's pretty clear here that many of the people saying "Yes, this is normal" aren't saying it to be dismissive or cruel but because they truly believe that's the best answer given the information we have.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 11:38 AM on December 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
PhoBWanKenobi, you're right, many of the people here saying "yes, this is normal" because it's normal for them. But so many of the responses here are incredibly dismissive and judgemental, and those are the ones that are rankling me. Sure, lots of people google-stalk. But the OP has asked Mom many times to just stop, the boundary has been drawn, and she's ignoring it. That's a serious problem, and seeing so many "get over yourself" kind of responses here is kind of gross.
posted by palomar at 11:50 AM on December 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by palomar at 11:50 AM on December 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
"Mom, it feels creepy when you do this stuff, and makes me not want to share the details of my life with you. I'd really appreciate it if you didn't do this. My girlfriend is skeeved out. I don't think that was your intent, but it's not a great beginning to a relationship."
If your Mom just got a little carried away with a surprise, then back down. But I suspect you know your Mom, and she pushes your boundaries. But I think the big guns won't help. What will help is distance from her when she pushes boundaries, and sharing your life with her when the boundaries are clear. A regular phone call schedule, regular cards, and regular cheery emails will help, too. Hallmark cards represent a fake emotional relationship, but sometimes that's all you can have.
posted by theora55 at 12:22 PM on December 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
If your Mom just got a little carried away with a surprise, then back down. But I suspect you know your Mom, and she pushes your boundaries. But I think the big guns won't help. What will help is distance from her when she pushes boundaries, and sharing your life with her when the boundaries are clear. A regular phone call schedule, regular cards, and regular cheery emails will help, too. Hallmark cards represent a fake emotional relationship, but sometimes that's all you can have.
posted by theora55 at 12:22 PM on December 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
Suggesting therapy never works, as she has a degree in Counseling, which I am absolutely certain she pursued to deflect her actual need for counseling....
Not to de-snark, but there is some truth there, I think. It's all annoying anecdote, but those who I know who have studied psychiatry in college weren't doing so because they were trying to untangle other people's brain issues. And some of the most mentally-landmined people I know are counselors of various stripe.
Who else would be so fascinated with inner conflict enough to dedicate their life to it?
So it may not be nefarious "deflecting", it may be an indirect attempt at self-help, or a way to take some control that comes with the benefit of plausible deniability... which is the "deflecting" part you mention.
posted by rokusan at 3:50 PM on December 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
Not to de-snark, but there is some truth there, I think. It's all annoying anecdote, but those who I know who have studied psychiatry in college weren't doing so because they were trying to untangle other people's brain issues. And some of the most mentally-landmined people I know are counselors of various stripe.
Who else would be so fascinated with inner conflict enough to dedicate their life to it?
So it may not be nefarious "deflecting", it may be an indirect attempt at self-help, or a way to take some control that comes with the benefit of plausible deniability... which is the "deflecting" part you mention.
posted by rokusan at 3:50 PM on December 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
Anon - Here's the problem. You didn't give enough information for us to know which one of you has gone off the deep end. From your question, it sounds as though you brought your girlfriend home for Thanksgiving. It's not off the beam for your mother to think it was okay to contact someone who had been an overnight guest in her home.
Reading your question my first thought was that you make some pretty harsh assumptions about your mother - going through your girlfriends purse? That's a serious accusation and we have no context to evaluate it.
My suggestion is that you consider this askme to be a miss. We simply don't have enough information to give you good advice. Some answers are going to validate you and others are going to validate your mom. Since we don't have any insight into your mom, we're all shooting in the dark.
posted by 26.2 at 10:41 PM on December 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
Reading your question my first thought was that you make some pretty harsh assumptions about your mother - going through your girlfriends purse? That's a serious accusation and we have no context to evaluate it.
My suggestion is that you consider this askme to be a miss. We simply don't have enough information to give you good advice. Some answers are going to validate you and others are going to validate your mom. Since we don't have any insight into your mom, we're all shooting in the dark.
posted by 26.2 at 10:41 PM on December 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
And, just asking here, because obviously some of this probably has to do with your interpersonal relationship with your own mother...but:
Is it really that big a deal for her to have a snailmail address? OR is this simply a symptom of a greater snoopiness problem?
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 7:39 PM on December 10, 2009