reference advice
November 17, 2009 5:03 PM Subscribe
What is the protocol regarding asking for academic recommendations?
I am a recent PhD seeking a job in academia. I've been feeling badly about burdening my former MA and PhD advisors for job references, because I know they're very busy people. But I tell myself "hey, it's part of their job, don't feel badly". Well, yesterday I received an email from one of them that smacked me down pretty hard. She took me to task for a couple of other things, and said that the references were "a lot to ask" (I have sent her around 10 or 12, most of which could be an identical letter, sent to a different institution).
Is there any other way to go about this job search? It seems that my advisors are the best people to use for recommendations; as I am not yet published (and even if I were), who else is familiar with my work?
Did I do something wrong? The last thing I want to do is to alienate the people who, to some extent, hold my future in their hands.
I am a recent PhD seeking a job in academia. I've been feeling badly about burdening my former MA and PhD advisors for job references, because I know they're very busy people. But I tell myself "hey, it's part of their job, don't feel badly". Well, yesterday I received an email from one of them that smacked me down pretty hard. She took me to task for a couple of other things, and said that the references were "a lot to ask" (I have sent her around 10 or 12, most of which could be an identical letter, sent to a different institution).
Is there any other way to go about this job search? It seems that my advisors are the best people to use for recommendations; as I am not yet published (and even if I were), who else is familiar with my work?
Did I do something wrong? The last thing I want to do is to alienate the people who, to some extent, hold my future in their hands.
This is poor professional behavior on the part of your advisor. This is part and parcel of the mentoring relationship. Did you ask for letters on very short notice? Did you not have a good working relationship? It's very puzzling. Your advisors are the VERY people who should be writing your letters; it will look odd if your dissertation chair is not one of your letters.
The protocol for most letters is asking in advance (as far as possible), providing a CV and personal statement to the letter writer, and providing any supporting documentation, envelopes, etc. that can streamline the process. Many people prefer to get all of the requests at once, rather than getting them piecemeal.
I have been counseled by my advisors that one should also feel comfortable asking a potential letter writer candidly if they are willing to write a *strong* letter, as a weak letter is worse than no letter. It sounds like this particular advisor is not willing to write you a strong letter. You may consider sitting to to apologize if you did anything wrong, appeal to her memory of how difficult it is to get a job, and express your appreciation for the working relationship that you've had.
However, depending on your field, if you have no publications and your advisor won't write you a strong letter, your academic job opportunities are most likely going to be quite limited. Consider applying to non-academic jobs as well that don't require letters of recommendation. This, of course, is discipline-contingent; it may not apply to your particular field.
posted by proj at 5:17 PM on November 17, 2009
The protocol for most letters is asking in advance (as far as possible), providing a CV and personal statement to the letter writer, and providing any supporting documentation, envelopes, etc. that can streamline the process. Many people prefer to get all of the requests at once, rather than getting them piecemeal.
I have been counseled by my advisors that one should also feel comfortable asking a potential letter writer candidly if they are willing to write a *strong* letter, as a weak letter is worse than no letter. It sounds like this particular advisor is not willing to write you a strong letter. You may consider sitting to to apologize if you did anything wrong, appeal to her memory of how difficult it is to get a job, and express your appreciation for the working relationship that you've had.
However, depending on your field, if you have no publications and your advisor won't write you a strong letter, your academic job opportunities are most likely going to be quite limited. Consider applying to non-academic jobs as well that don't require letters of recommendation. This, of course, is discipline-contingent; it may not apply to your particular field.
posted by proj at 5:17 PM on November 17, 2009
Although I am no yet in your position, 10-12 letters seems pretty huge to me (did you actually found 12 positions to be filled in your domain? wow!). At that levels, the letters do need to be quite personalized, since I assume every department will have particular needs and philosophies, and your statement probably reflects this as well. Writing a recommendation is an endorsement, I assume it requires much more work than a simple letter of reference for grad studies.
Have you come into contact with other professors, perhaps during conferences, research labs, or courses? If you maintained good contact with them and they know your work, you could ask them. But in any case, don't just ask for a letter--be sure they'll write a strong letter. And finally, I'm not sure about your discipline's publishing culture, but once you get a couple publications it'll probably help a lot.
posted by ddaavviidd at 5:24 PM on November 17, 2009
Have you come into contact with other professors, perhaps during conferences, research labs, or courses? If you maintained good contact with them and they know your work, you could ask them. But in any case, don't just ask for a letter--be sure they'll write a strong letter. And finally, I'm not sure about your discipline's publishing culture, but once you get a couple publications it'll probably help a lot.
posted by ddaavviidd at 5:24 PM on November 17, 2009
I think that I, after getting over that "a lot to ask" comment, would try to write her a polite and well-thought-out message asking essentially exactly what you asked here. But that's me.
Otherwise, a little networking (hate that term) among people in your field ought to produce a bunch of someones who are familiar with your work and has something (positive, right?) to say about it other than your advisors. And (perhaps I'm missing something here, or your field is all different than mine) I find shoving 10 or 12 references onto one single person a bit much, actually. I wouldn't feel badly in principle, but I'd try to spread the load.
posted by Namlit at 5:24 PM on November 17, 2009
Otherwise, a little networking (hate that term) among people in your field ought to produce a bunch of someones who are familiar with your work and has something (positive, right?) to say about it other than your advisors. And (perhaps I'm missing something here, or your field is all different than mine) I find shoving 10 or 12 references onto one single person a bit much, actually. I wouldn't feel badly in principle, but I'd try to spread the load.
posted by Namlit at 5:24 PM on November 17, 2009
ddaavviidd and Namlit: N.B., 10-12 is not a lot in my field (social sciences). In my department, people routinely apply to 20+ positions (more if you include post docs).
posted by proj at 5:26 PM on November 17, 2009
posted by proj at 5:26 PM on November 17, 2009
With academicjobs.org or similar websites your advisor only has to upload the letter once and it gets sent everywhere. your advisor is probably used to that, so 10-20 separate letters seems like a lot to him/her. With today's economy it's really not though. You didn't do anything wrong.
posted by water bear at 5:35 PM on November 17, 2009
posted by water bear at 5:35 PM on November 17, 2009
another thing you can do is ask them to send the letter to a secretary, who will take care of it for them.
posted by water bear at 5:37 PM on November 17, 2009
posted by water bear at 5:37 PM on November 17, 2009
(I didn't want to derail but was also wondering about the lack of publications. I would have to think that puts all faculty jobs completely out of reach. This is something you should look into, unless you know for sure it's not a problem in your field.)
posted by PercussivePaul at 5:42 PM on November 17, 2009
posted by PercussivePaul at 5:42 PM on November 17, 2009
Does your department not have a faculty member assigned to handle job placement issues? You should ask that person, or your DGS, what to do.
This probably varies a good deal by field, but in philosophy in the US, people on the market routinely apply to dozens of jobs, sometimes over a hundred -- anything you're remotely qualified for. It's pretty typical to have a single reference letter from each reference that is meant to cover most of those jobs. (Maybe if there are a couple of jobs where you really want to tailor it, or your advisor had a personal contact, you might ask for a separate letter.) Usually the sending of letters and some other application materials is centrally coordinated by the department somehow, or they (or previous job searchers?) can give you advice on it. Typical procedure is that you would talk over your list of jobs you're applying for with your advisor, and s/he might give advice ("aim higher"/"aim lower"), and advisor will tell you what kind of letter s/he can write for you ("I'll write you a very strong letter for schools x and y, but a weaker letter for school z"). You want to give your advisor lots of lead time, and any other materials s/he needs to write a good letter for you (lists of courses, what you're going to say in your own letters, etc).
posted by LobsterMitten at 5:47 PM on November 17, 2009 [1 favorite]
This probably varies a good deal by field, but in philosophy in the US, people on the market routinely apply to dozens of jobs, sometimes over a hundred -- anything you're remotely qualified for. It's pretty typical to have a single reference letter from each reference that is meant to cover most of those jobs. (Maybe if there are a couple of jobs where you really want to tailor it, or your advisor had a personal contact, you might ask for a separate letter.) Usually the sending of letters and some other application materials is centrally coordinated by the department somehow, or they (or previous job searchers?) can give you advice on it. Typical procedure is that you would talk over your list of jobs you're applying for with your advisor, and s/he might give advice ("aim higher"/"aim lower"), and advisor will tell you what kind of letter s/he can write for you ("I'll write you a very strong letter for schools x and y, but a weaker letter for school z"). You want to give your advisor lots of lead time, and any other materials s/he needs to write a good letter for you (lists of courses, what you're going to say in your own letters, etc).
posted by LobsterMitten at 5:47 PM on November 17, 2009 [1 favorite]
Also the forums at the Chronicle of Higher Education are a good place to find more detailed advice about academic job searches.
posted by LobsterMitten at 5:49 PM on November 17, 2009
posted by LobsterMitten at 5:49 PM on November 17, 2009
It's part of their job. I am a final-year PhD student and I'm applying for jobs. I actually asked a couple people for recommendations in the last few days after putting it off for a while out of nervousness. I sympathize with feeling bad about burdening them, though, because they're busy people. Also, if you're like a lot of grad students you might think that your work sucks and you don't deserve a recommendation; this is known as impostor syndrom.
In my field (mathematics) and department, we have all the recommenders give their letter to the "graduate secretary", who works tirelessly, is surely not paid enough, and gets thanked copiously in the acknowledgements to everybody's dissertation. The secretary then passes them on to the schools we're applying to. You said you're a recent PhD (implying you already have the degree in hand), but perhaps your former department does it the same way and will help you out?
posted by madcaptenor at 5:52 PM on November 17, 2009
In my field (mathematics) and department, we have all the recommenders give their letter to the "graduate secretary", who works tirelessly, is surely not paid enough, and gets thanked copiously in the acknowledgements to everybody's dissertation. The secretary then passes them on to the schools we're applying to. You said you're a recent PhD (implying you already have the degree in hand), but perhaps your former department does it the same way and will help you out?
posted by madcaptenor at 5:52 PM on November 17, 2009
In my field (physics), it would be strange to apply somewhere and not have one's PhD advisor give a letter of recommendation. I would think this would be true anywhere in academia, since there should be no other person more familiar with your work than he or she is. The lack of it would be a giant red flag.
You really should ask about the details of what is meant and what expectations she has. Maybe it has to do with the notice you are giving her, or the strength of recommendations. Like the first commenter said, there's something weird going on here, and you really need to get to the bottom of it.
posted by Schismatic at 6:02 PM on November 17, 2009
You really should ask about the details of what is meant and what expectations she has. Maybe it has to do with the notice you are giving her, or the strength of recommendations. Like the first commenter said, there's something weird going on here, and you really need to get to the bottom of it.
posted by Schismatic at 6:02 PM on November 17, 2009
PercussivePaul, it depends on the field. I know a friend of mine got a tenure-track job (in English, no less) without a PhD in hand and without any publications. Definitely not the norm, but it can be done.
posted by pised at 6:08 PM on November 17, 2009
posted by pised at 6:08 PM on November 17, 2009
Response by poster: Thanks for all the comments, they are helpful. I the interest of clarity I'll give a bit more detail. The "couple of other things" that I mentioned: I had no acknowledgments page in my dissertation, and I didn't send her a bound copy after I completed.
The lack of an acknowledgements page was because I had issues with my other advisor and with many of my fellow students, and was unwilling to write a bullshit-filled page of praise about them, so I omitted the acknowledgments page entirely. Ironically, this advisor who I am now writing about was certainly one of the high points of the whole experience; very professional, enthusiastic, engaged, and available for help.
I didn't send her a bound copy because I was entirely unaware that such a thing was expected. I did give both my advisors a CD of the work. In fact I don't even have a bound copy myself yet, just a pile of paper.
In case it's relevant, all of this happened in the UK.
I reiterate my previous question: have I committed some unpardonable social gaffe?
posted by crazylegs at 6:11 PM on November 17, 2009
The lack of an acknowledgements page was because I had issues with my other advisor and with many of my fellow students, and was unwilling to write a bullshit-filled page of praise about them, so I omitted the acknowledgments page entirely. Ironically, this advisor who I am now writing about was certainly one of the high points of the whole experience; very professional, enthusiastic, engaged, and available for help.
I didn't send her a bound copy because I was entirely unaware that such a thing was expected. I did give both my advisors a CD of the work. In fact I don't even have a bound copy myself yet, just a pile of paper.
In case it's relevant, all of this happened in the UK.
I reiterate my previous question: have I committed some unpardonable social gaffe?
posted by crazylegs at 6:11 PM on November 17, 2009
Response by poster: Also may be relevant: the field is Art History.
posted by crazylegs at 6:12 PM on November 17, 2009
posted by crazylegs at 6:12 PM on November 17, 2009
I have heard that advisor-advisee relationships in the UK are somewhat different than the US; advisors are often seen more as paternal/maternal dispensers of knowledge that should be passed on rather than mentors who are training colleagues. The status hierarchy is a bit more rigid and advisors see their advisees as carriers of their intellectual mantle. This, of course, is a gross generalization, but it is based on multiple discussions with US and UK colleagues.
Perhaps your advisor subscribes to this way of thinking and an apology and an explanation like the one provided above (and that subtly recognizes your advisor's status) can smooth things over. It could be that the lack of acknowledgement and the lack of a copy seem to your advisor to symbolize a greater lack of respect that she perceives on your part.
posted by proj at 6:31 PM on November 17, 2009
Perhaps your advisor subscribes to this way of thinking and an apology and an explanation like the one provided above (and that subtly recognizes your advisor's status) can smooth things over. It could be that the lack of acknowledgement and the lack of a copy seem to your advisor to symbolize a greater lack of respect that she perceives on your part.
posted by proj at 6:31 PM on November 17, 2009
You definitely did some things that flew in the face of standard decorum. You absolutely should have had an acknowledgements page since, as you say, some people were extremely helpful to you. Even the ones that weren't, I'm sure were beneficial in some way, even if frustrating as well. This sort of intellectual acknowledgement goes a long way in academia, and people feel very slighted when you ignore that. It's as if you don't respect the large amounts of time and effort they put in to helping you work. And yes, not everyone is someone that you did nothing but enjoy, but they still probably had something to do with your intellectual maturation. So as far as that is concerned, I think you have some serious apologizing to do. The amount of candor involved depends on your understanding of this advisor.
The lesson to learn from that is to be nice. It doesn't hurt anything except your ego. You don't need to bestow giant amounts of praise on people if they don't deserve it, just acknowledge them.
As for the bound copy, that's a bit less. Again, apologize (it is your fault, after all, for not finding out norms in such a situation), but I think it will be easier to handle this part by pleading ignorance and apologizing sincerely enough.
In general, your actions looks like a general lack of respect for your advisors (which it sounds like was intended, except towards this particular person), and it's hard to ask for favors from people who you slighted. But it's important that you try, because you'll be in much better shape if you have these letters of rec.
posted by Schismatic at 6:38 PM on November 17, 2009
The lesson to learn from that is to be nice. It doesn't hurt anything except your ego. You don't need to bestow giant amounts of praise on people if they don't deserve it, just acknowledge them.
As for the bound copy, that's a bit less. Again, apologize (it is your fault, after all, for not finding out norms in such a situation), but I think it will be easier to handle this part by pleading ignorance and apologizing sincerely enough.
In general, your actions looks like a general lack of respect for your advisors (which it sounds like was intended, except towards this particular person), and it's hard to ask for favors from people who you slighted. But it's important that you try, because you'll be in much better shape if you have these letters of rec.
posted by Schismatic at 6:38 PM on November 17, 2009
Acknowledgements in a dissertation essentially nobody is going to read*, and a bound copy? Seriously? Your advisor is insane. Completely bugfuck, rubbing her feces in her hair, raving about time cubes, eating her own children and toes insane.
That said, it's a shame that it took until now for you to discover this, because if she's your dissertation advisor you're stuck with her. If she's your advisor, your best bet is to apologize profusely, ask what you can do to make her happy, and so on.
If she's not your actual advisor, if she's just someone on your PhD committee, you can just look for someone else to write for you.
*No slight intended. Hardly any dissertations get read as dissertations beyond the committee and one or two random people.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:49 PM on November 17, 2009
That said, it's a shame that it took until now for you to discover this, because if she's your dissertation advisor you're stuck with her. If she's your advisor, your best bet is to apologize profusely, ask what you can do to make her happy, and so on.
If she's not your actual advisor, if she's just someone on your PhD committee, you can just look for someone else to write for you.
*No slight intended. Hardly any dissertations get read as dissertations beyond the committee and one or two random people.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:49 PM on November 17, 2009
Not sure if this happens in the UK, but find out whether your former university has a dossier service. This has saved me (and my referees) a lot of effort over the years: referees send one reference to the dossier service, attached to a standard form with your signed waiver of right to access, and then you contact the service and tell them where to send copies, and how many. They send out the references, sealed and in official dossier format.
posted by media_itoku at 9:29 PM on November 17, 2009
posted by media_itoku at 9:29 PM on November 17, 2009
Figure out if it would make her feel better to receive a bound copy at this point. Make an acknowledgments page for it. If you just can't stomach praising people, you can probably at least manage to thank them for 'being a part of your learning experience', 'priceless feedback', or suchlike.
posted by yohko at 3:38 PM on November 18, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by yohko at 3:38 PM on November 18, 2009 [1 favorite]
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"Me writing you a reference letter is a lot to ask" - bizarre and strange given she's already written it, so maybe she's angry with you and not willing to do any favours, even those required by professional courtesy.
"You asking for me to recommend you is a lot to ask" - for some reason she's lost faith in you? Worried you'll do a bad job and make her look bad for recommending you?
Either way you need to discreetly probe a bit and figure out what's going on. If you got to the point where you received a smackdown I would guess you already did something wrong. Whatever that is, maybe you can fix it?
posted by PercussivePaul at 5:15 PM on November 17, 2009