So I am now out of a job, but something isn't right
November 12, 2009 2:06 PM Subscribe
Something else isnt right aside from being laid off that is...
Found out that someone w/ equal title / position, employed same length of time, apx. same pay level, was given a package that was over 2x longer than mine (he got 5 months I have received 7 weeks).
Obviously this is a pretty big deal given today's market and timing (Dec and Jan are the worst time of year to look for a job). What is my recourse? Do I have any (aka lawyer up?).
Found out that someone w/ equal title / position, employed same length of time, apx. same pay level, was given a package that was over 2x longer than mine (he got 5 months I have received 7 weeks).
Obviously this is a pretty big deal given today's market and timing (Dec and Jan are the worst time of year to look for a job). What is my recourse? Do I have any (aka lawyer up?).
It probably depends what state you are in, but presumably you signed to accept your severance package. Most likely you got the standard deal and he negotiated a better one for himself. Everything's worth negotiating, even layoff packages. Did he have anything he could use? Did you? It's probably too late now, but you could have used an agreement not to compete, some intellectual property that you developed, an agreement to be available or not hire other employees away at a new position amongst other ideas, as leverage for a better package.
posted by IanMorr at 2:18 PM on November 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by IanMorr at 2:18 PM on November 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: I actually haven't signed anything yet. My colleague did not negotiate, the only difference was timing (he was let go a year ago).
posted by gnash at 2:27 PM on November 12, 2009
posted by gnash at 2:27 PM on November 12, 2009
The economy was better a year ago, so they gave him a more generous package.
Or, your bosses liked him better.
Either way, there's nothing you can do.
posted by Aizkolari at 2:29 PM on November 12, 2009 [3 favorites]
Or, your bosses liked him better.
Either way, there's nothing you can do.
posted by Aizkolari at 2:29 PM on November 12, 2009 [3 favorites]
Oh then yes, this is normal. In earlier rounds of layoffs the standard package is almost always better, but it is the standard package. If you have leverage, use it. What do you have that they still need?
posted by IanMorr at 2:32 PM on November 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by IanMorr at 2:32 PM on November 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
the only difference was timing (he was let go a year ago).
Well, there ya go. Timing is everything. Company finances change.
posted by mkultra at 2:41 PM on November 12, 2009
Well, there ya go. Timing is everything. Company finances change.
posted by mkultra at 2:41 PM on November 12, 2009
Response by poster: My leverage is limited as I just helped complete the execution of a divestiture of the business I was in. They want me to stay on for another month or so to help transition.
It is in my best interest to do it as Dec/Jan are the worst months to find a job and I am pretty high up the food chain (despite what my 7 weeks sev suggests :( ).
As for not being liked - top performer so that is doubtful. Cheaping out (see divestiture) rings more true.
posted by gnash at 2:44 PM on November 12, 2009
It is in my best interest to do it as Dec/Jan are the worst months to find a job and I am pretty high up the food chain (despite what my 7 weeks sev suggests :( ).
As for not being liked - top performer so that is doubtful. Cheaping out (see divestiture) rings more true.
posted by gnash at 2:44 PM on November 12, 2009
Response by poster: For the record as far as finances - *plenty* of money.
posted by gnash at 2:48 PM on November 12, 2009
posted by gnash at 2:48 PM on November 12, 2009
Response by poster: er the company's finances - not mine :)
posted by gnash at 2:51 PM on November 12, 2009
posted by gnash at 2:51 PM on November 12, 2009
A year is a huge difference. Think of severance packages as promotions - a store can change the promotions the offer from one time to another, depending on how well they are doing, how well they think they will do in the future, how badly they want people to leave without additional fuss (esp. when asking for volunteers for early retirement) and so on.
Laws and customs vary from place to place. For example, in California, an at-will employment state, I would not automatically assume that two employees released a year apart would receive the same compensation except perhaps from a large and stable company, and stable here means financially stable as well has having low management and board turnover (making it less likely a new person comes in and changes policies).
posted by zippy at 3:30 PM on November 12, 2009
Laws and customs vary from place to place. For example, in California, an at-will employment state, I would not automatically assume that two employees released a year apart would receive the same compensation except perhaps from a large and stable company, and stable here means financially stable as well has having low management and board turnover (making it less likely a new person comes in and changes policies).
posted by zippy at 3:30 PM on November 12, 2009
If this is a mass layoff as a result of the divestiture you're probably going to have to take what you can get. Suggest the handover may take longer, they can book you as a RIF in this quarter and still have you working for 60 days. Make sure there's no non-compete, make sure everything vests, if it makes a difference to your taxes negotiate taking the money as paycheck continuation into January versus a lump sum in December.
One other thought, was there a bonus or anything due that you'll be missing out on as a result of this? That might be worth involving a lawyer over.
posted by IanMorr at 3:30 PM on November 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
One other thought, was there a bonus or anything due that you'll be missing out on as a result of this? That might be worth involving a lawyer over.
posted by IanMorr at 3:30 PM on November 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
how well they think they will do in the future, how badly they want people to leave without additional fuss (esp. when asking for volunteers for early retirement) and so on.
Sorry, mixing metaphors here, but I hope the idea is clear.
posted by zippy at 3:31 PM on November 12, 2009
Sorry, mixing metaphors here, but I hope the idea is clear.
posted by zippy at 3:31 PM on November 12, 2009
Heh.
Company I worked for in 2002 sliced the package to little bits weeks before I got let go.
I was there for 15 years and got four weeks severance. Before that, it was two weeks for every year of service.
Oh, and I had to sign a paper saying that I would not sue of disclose the outcome to anyone (even my wife!) or I would get nothing.
That can do it.
OK, so I have a couple sour grapes.
posted by Drasher at 3:33 PM on November 12, 2009
Company I worked for in 2002 sliced the package to little bits weeks before I got let go.
I was there for 15 years and got four weeks severance. Before that, it was two weeks for every year of service.
Oh, and I had to sign a paper saying that I would not sue of disclose the outcome to anyone (even my wife!) or I would get nothing.
That can do it.
OK, so I have a couple sour grapes.
posted by Drasher at 3:33 PM on November 12, 2009
Response by poster: Thanks for all of the advice everyone.
I am gathering data but it seems one important difference is I am under a different employment agreement than my counterpart was. His severance agreement was much more generous under his and other people in that time frame than mine is.
Good tip on carrying into Jan v. lump sum. I will do that. I am employed until 12/31 and then my sev kicks in.
I will be missing out on a bonus that would hit June of 2010 (so I have put in a 1/2 year against it). Can I actually pursue that??
posted by gnash at 3:35 PM on November 12, 2009
I am gathering data but it seems one important difference is I am under a different employment agreement than my counterpart was. His severance agreement was much more generous under his and other people in that time frame than mine is.
Good tip on carrying into Jan v. lump sum. I will do that. I am employed until 12/31 and then my sev kicks in.
I will be missing out on a bonus that would hit June of 2010 (so I have put in a 1/2 year against it). Can I actually pursue that??
posted by gnash at 3:35 PM on November 12, 2009
the only difference was timing (he was let go a year ago).
That's a lot of difference. Everything was different a year ago.
Can I actually pursue that??
I think you can pursue anything you want to try, as long as you understand fully that the company doesn't owe you a thing.
posted by Miko at 3:42 PM on November 12, 2009
That's a lot of difference. Everything was different a year ago.
Can I actually pursue that??
I think you can pursue anything you want to try, as long as you understand fully that the company doesn't owe you a thing.
posted by Miko at 3:42 PM on November 12, 2009
Some Nortel employees that were laid off last December were rudely surprised when that company went into bankruptcy very early this year - they suddenly found themselves with zero severance. So, it could be worse.
posted by amtho at 3:51 PM on November 12, 2009
posted by amtho at 3:51 PM on November 12, 2009
Response by poster: Very fair re: could be worse given Drasher's experience (terrible) and amtho's observation.
I appreciate everyone's thoughts on my situation.
posted by gnash at 4:32 PM on November 12, 2009
I appreciate everyone's thoughts on my situation.
posted by gnash at 4:32 PM on November 12, 2009
The point at which you agreed to stay on to ease transition was the deadline for negotiating your severance.
posted by rhizome at 4:46 PM on November 12, 2009
posted by rhizome at 4:46 PM on November 12, 2009
I was about to say what rhizome said (more nicely). Their desire to have you there for the transition is your main leverage.
posted by salvia at 7:21 PM on November 12, 2009
posted by salvia at 7:21 PM on November 12, 2009
I've negotiated maybe 15 severance packages, and been part of the negotiation of about a dozen more. In my experience the amount of severance you receive can depend on a bunch of factors, including how much the negotiator likes you, how sad they are to let you go, how guilty they feel, their assessment of your need, the company's financial situation, how scared they are you might litigate or trash-talk or make their lives difficult, and how much they need your cooperation before you leave.
You are almost certainly entitled to nothing more than what they're offering you. And yes, your leverage vanished when you agreed to stay on. But you can get it back, because you haven't signed anything yet.
Tell them you would like to also get your bonus. Don't imply you're entitled to it, just say you would like it. Say that you're worried about the economy, and you are having second thoughts about your ability to work through your notice period. That you think January is a terrible time of year to start looking for work, and you'd be afraid to be launched into job-hunting without a better financial cushion. If you had your bonus you would be less worried, and okay to fully support the company during the notice period. Don't imply it's an entitlement: frame it as you wanting to help the company, and the bonus enabling you to fully dedicate yourself to doing that. And don't worry about the logic of your argument: whether it's reasonable doesn't matter; all that matters is that you appear to believe it.
If the person you're negotiating with has the authority, they will probably give you at least part of the bonus.
But remember: you are entitled to nothing. If you imply you are, you'll risk creating a you-versus-them dynamic, which won't help you.
posted by Susan PG at 12:29 AM on November 13, 2009 [1 favorite]
You are almost certainly entitled to nothing more than what they're offering you. And yes, your leverage vanished when you agreed to stay on. But you can get it back, because you haven't signed anything yet.
Tell them you would like to also get your bonus. Don't imply you're entitled to it, just say you would like it. Say that you're worried about the economy, and you are having second thoughts about your ability to work through your notice period. That you think January is a terrible time of year to start looking for work, and you'd be afraid to be launched into job-hunting without a better financial cushion. If you had your bonus you would be less worried, and okay to fully support the company during the notice period. Don't imply it's an entitlement: frame it as you wanting to help the company, and the bonus enabling you to fully dedicate yourself to doing that. And don't worry about the logic of your argument: whether it's reasonable doesn't matter; all that matters is that you appear to believe it.
If the person you're negotiating with has the authority, they will probably give you at least part of the bonus.
But remember: you are entitled to nothing. If you imply you are, you'll risk creating a you-versus-them dynamic, which won't help you.
posted by Susan PG at 12:29 AM on November 13, 2009 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
It's probably best for your long-term career prospects to not be That Guy That Sued When His Severance Package Wasn't Big Enough.
posted by 0xFCAF at 2:18 PM on November 12, 2009 [1 favorite]