Friendship with past loves during current loves.
November 11, 2009 3:36 PM Subscribe
Is it OK to regularly hang out with one of your past girlfriends while dating someone else?
I am actually asking this question on the behalf of a very good friend. I've been trying to help with the issue at hand for days but I finally decided that I could use some supplemental knowledge from the hive mind. Searches returned nothing (but probably because I am terrible at trawling the AskMe archive. related links highly appreciated). Here is the tale, names used but changed, all for clarity. And safety, of course.
A good friend of mine, 'Steve', has been dating another good friend of mine, 'Sally'. Steve met Sally when I introduced him to her about one year ago. They began to date four months ago. In general they've had a pretty regular relationship, no nasty fights or near-breakups. However what I'm getting into for the purposes of this question is starting to boil over.
Steve is a well rounded guy- not much to speak of in terms of personality or other problems, at least relative to the questions at hand. Steve has a regular circle of friends that he has known for years, much longer then Sally. One of these close friends is a girl named 'Suzy'. Steve went out with Suzy for a year or so, back a couple of years ago. It didn't work out. It wasn't so severe of a breakup, obviously-- they're still best friends.
Sally is nice as well. However, she has anxiety and has panic attacks. She also lacks a good share of confidence. In the terms of the relationship it doesn't translate well. She has trouble asking him out to dates, talking about feelings and the like-- in fact, I had to help her earlier this year in revealing some of her deeper feelings for Steve. She's very self conscious in general. A lot of the relationship's weakest links are based on some of this worry. Since she has trouble asking him on dates her plans are often beaten to the punch. By the time she gets around to asking for a weekend date Steve might sometimes already have plans with friends like me or Suzy. And, that leads into this problem:
Sally has a problem with Steve hanging out with his ex-girlfriend on a regular basis. I haven't been able to figure out quite why- although it seems to me that to a lot of women (at least, close to Sally), this is a pretty popular opinion. Me and my male friends, we could care less about the topic- in general it wouldn't concern us if our girlfriends still hung out with past loves.
Steve has absolutely no romantic interest in Suzy, nor the other way around, as far as both parties have told me. So that's the first thing I need- is this socially acceptable? If not what is wrong with it? Potential for cheating, etc?
Sally's behavior is starting to hinge on erratic regarding this- Steve is seriously concerned. I'm not even able to talk to Sally, one of my best friends, rationally-- any attempts at helping or analyzing the situation are deflected by a simple "you wouldn't get it!". The problem escalated because Steve plans to hang out with Suzy and several friends on a weekend trip very soon.
He won't break up with her quite yet, but he's not happy with it in general and it is making the relationship strained. He has no plans to leave Suzy or his friends behind. So there's the second bit: He wants a peaceful resolution that leaves both his relationships, romantic and not, intact. That's where I'm stuck.
Footnote and etc.: you're working with high school age teenagers and their brains here. Plan and suit accordingly for someone in that area, freedom and experience level. Thank you.
Of course, I will provide additional information as well. Just ask if I have been vague.
I am actually asking this question on the behalf of a very good friend. I've been trying to help with the issue at hand for days but I finally decided that I could use some supplemental knowledge from the hive mind. Searches returned nothing (but probably because I am terrible at trawling the AskMe archive. related links highly appreciated). Here is the tale, names used but changed, all for clarity. And safety, of course.
A good friend of mine, 'Steve', has been dating another good friend of mine, 'Sally'. Steve met Sally when I introduced him to her about one year ago. They began to date four months ago. In general they've had a pretty regular relationship, no nasty fights or near-breakups. However what I'm getting into for the purposes of this question is starting to boil over.
Steve is a well rounded guy- not much to speak of in terms of personality or other problems, at least relative to the questions at hand. Steve has a regular circle of friends that he has known for years, much longer then Sally. One of these close friends is a girl named 'Suzy'. Steve went out with Suzy for a year or so, back a couple of years ago. It didn't work out. It wasn't so severe of a breakup, obviously-- they're still best friends.
Sally is nice as well. However, she has anxiety and has panic attacks. She also lacks a good share of confidence. In the terms of the relationship it doesn't translate well. She has trouble asking him out to dates, talking about feelings and the like-- in fact, I had to help her earlier this year in revealing some of her deeper feelings for Steve. She's very self conscious in general. A lot of the relationship's weakest links are based on some of this worry. Since she has trouble asking him on dates her plans are often beaten to the punch. By the time she gets around to asking for a weekend date Steve might sometimes already have plans with friends like me or Suzy. And, that leads into this problem:
Sally has a problem with Steve hanging out with his ex-girlfriend on a regular basis. I haven't been able to figure out quite why- although it seems to me that to a lot of women (at least, close to Sally), this is a pretty popular opinion. Me and my male friends, we could care less about the topic- in general it wouldn't concern us if our girlfriends still hung out with past loves.
Steve has absolutely no romantic interest in Suzy, nor the other way around, as far as both parties have told me. So that's the first thing I need- is this socially acceptable? If not what is wrong with it? Potential for cheating, etc?
Sally's behavior is starting to hinge on erratic regarding this- Steve is seriously concerned. I'm not even able to talk to Sally, one of my best friends, rationally-- any attempts at helping or analyzing the situation are deflected by a simple "you wouldn't get it!". The problem escalated because Steve plans to hang out with Suzy and several friends on a weekend trip very soon.
He won't break up with her quite yet, but he's not happy with it in general and it is making the relationship strained. He has no plans to leave Suzy or his friends behind. So there's the second bit: He wants a peaceful resolution that leaves both his relationships, romantic and not, intact. That's where I'm stuck.
Footnote and etc.: you're working with high school age teenagers and their brains here. Plan and suit accordingly for someone in that area, freedom and experience level. Thank you.
Of course, I will provide additional information as well. Just ask if I have been vague.
He wants a peaceful resolution that leaves both his relationships, romantic and not, intact.
oh, not happening.
high school age teenagers and their brains
Oh, really not happening.
Look, Sally is just going to have to learn that her behavior is unacceptable - she can't prevent him from having friends, including being friends with his ex if there's nothing going on. She can't learn this unless someone tells her. There is no "peaceful resolution" with someone who won't listen to reason. The good news is, she's young and has plenty of time to learn these lessons. And he has plenty of time to find someone who won't be insecure and manipulative.
posted by desjardins at 3:44 PM on November 11, 2009 [3 favorites]
oh, not happening.
high school age teenagers and their brains
Oh, really not happening.
Look, Sally is just going to have to learn that her behavior is unacceptable - she can't prevent him from having friends, including being friends with his ex if there's nothing going on. She can't learn this unless someone tells her. There is no "peaceful resolution" with someone who won't listen to reason. The good news is, she's young and has plenty of time to learn these lessons. And he has plenty of time to find someone who won't be insecure and manipulative.
posted by desjardins at 3:44 PM on November 11, 2009 [3 favorites]
Sally's behavior is starting to hinge on erratic regarding this- Steve is seriously concerned. I'm not even able to talk to Sally, one of my best friends
Runaway! Runaway as fast as you can!
Seriously, though. Crazypants jealous partners will quickly drag a relationship into the ground and make it hell for everyone involved. Now, granted erratic and irrational are not exactly uncommon traits in high schoolers, especially when there is a relationship involved. But still, hanging out with an ex is absolutely acceptable, especially given the circumstances you described above regarding the relatioship, break-up, etc.
My advice? She probably needs to chill the fuck out or get the fuck out.
posted by Lutoslawski at 3:47 PM on November 11, 2009 [2 favorites]
Runaway! Runaway as fast as you can!
Seriously, though. Crazypants jealous partners will quickly drag a relationship into the ground and make it hell for everyone involved. Now, granted erratic and irrational are not exactly uncommon traits in high schoolers, especially when there is a relationship involved. But still, hanging out with an ex is absolutely acceptable, especially given the circumstances you described above regarding the relatioship, break-up, etc.
My advice? She probably needs to chill the fuck out or get the fuck out.
posted by Lutoslawski at 3:47 PM on November 11, 2009 [2 favorites]
Perhaps I am misreading the situation, but why is Sally not included when Steve makes plans with Suzy? Is it because it would be uncomfortable? If it would be uncomfortable, would it be cause of Sally, or Suzy, or both? I think that is the crux of the issue. And why is Steve making plans with Suzy, his ex, before checking to see if Sally is holding her time open just for him?
I think it's hard enough to date someone who excludes you from plans with their friends (not that you have to invite your S.O. to every event you attend, and it IS important to have your own friends outside of your relationship), but if he's regularly making plans, and not even thinking to invite Sally, something is wrong. It's probably not healthy for Sally to assume that the something wrong is latent feelings for Suzy, but honestly, to someone with anxiety and self confidence issues, feeling threatened by an ex is a lot easier to swallow than feeling threatened by the fact that her boyfriend might not be interested in spending time with HER.
Sally is not going to feel comfortable asking for Steve's time if she doesn't feel like Steve doesn't want to give it to her. If Steve REALLY wants a peaceful resolution (and not just for Sally to suck it up and accept the current status quo, because that is never going to happen), he needs to work on making Sally feel more comfortable. This means, in concrete terms:
1.) Putting time spent with Sally into the "more important" category than time spent with Suzy. She is his girlfriend. If he's making plans for the weekend, he needs to make his plans with Sally, and if there's time for Suzy, make those plans.
2.) If he's got plans with Suzy, he needs to be upfront about it and invite Sally along at LEAST half of the time.
3.) Has Steve told Sally in no uncertain terms -- YOU are my girlfriend, and I am REALLY HAPPY ABOUT THAT. Suzy is NOT my girlfriend, and I am in NO way unhappy about that? Because that would probably help. A lot.
posted by pazazygeek at 3:51 PM on November 11, 2009 [8 favorites]
I think it's hard enough to date someone who excludes you from plans with their friends (not that you have to invite your S.O. to every event you attend, and it IS important to have your own friends outside of your relationship), but if he's regularly making plans, and not even thinking to invite Sally, something is wrong. It's probably not healthy for Sally to assume that the something wrong is latent feelings for Suzy, but honestly, to someone with anxiety and self confidence issues, feeling threatened by an ex is a lot easier to swallow than feeling threatened by the fact that her boyfriend might not be interested in spending time with HER.
Sally is not going to feel comfortable asking for Steve's time if she doesn't feel like Steve doesn't want to give it to her. If Steve REALLY wants a peaceful resolution (and not just for Sally to suck it up and accept the current status quo, because that is never going to happen), he needs to work on making Sally feel more comfortable. This means, in concrete terms:
1.) Putting time spent with Sally into the "more important" category than time spent with Suzy. She is his girlfriend. If he's making plans for the weekend, he needs to make his plans with Sally, and if there's time for Suzy, make those plans.
2.) If he's got plans with Suzy, he needs to be upfront about it and invite Sally along at LEAST half of the time.
3.) Has Steve told Sally in no uncertain terms -- YOU are my girlfriend, and I am REALLY HAPPY ABOUT THAT. Suzy is NOT my girlfriend, and I am in NO way unhappy about that? Because that would probably help. A lot.
posted by pazazygeek at 3:51 PM on November 11, 2009 [8 favorites]
Steve and Suzy are doing nothing wrong. Sally is being a jealous twit. You and Steve and whoever else need to sit her down and explain that, and maybe even invite Sally along on this trip so she can see exactly how little interest there is between the other two.
I'm not even able to talk to Sally, one of my best friends, rationally-- any attempts at helping or analyzing the situation are deflected by a simple "you wouldn't get it!"
Yeah, sounds like a teenager to me. I think even at that age I would have laughed and told Sally to grow up, but sounds like that's not what Steve wants.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 3:51 PM on November 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
I'm not even able to talk to Sally, one of my best friends, rationally-- any attempts at helping or analyzing the situation are deflected by a simple "you wouldn't get it!"
Yeah, sounds like a teenager to me. I think even at that age I would have laughed and told Sally to grow up, but sounds like that's not what Steve wants.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 3:51 PM on November 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
Answer Part One:
This can absolutely be socially acceptable. In fact, I would argue it's healthy, at least for Steve, to remain close to those he's been romantically involved with in the past. I too have a close group of friends, which includes several ex-girlfriends who I am very happy to still be friends with, even though we will never be "together" again. Those women also had dated close friends of mine before I dated them. There was rarely if ever any real tension. Such is the way of "circle-of-friends" things: whatever holds the circle together is stronger than the jealousies and hurt surrounding breakups, and that's a good thing.
It sounds to me like the bigger problem is that Sally isn't really in the circle, or at least not to the degree that she should be for this to not be an issue. If Sally could be friends with Suzy, she probably wouldn't be suffering panic attacks over all of this, but she's probably put Suzy on some sort of pedestal that she thinks she might not be able to measure up to.
Aside from making efforts to integrate Sally into the circle more, Steve needs to take the initiative about making dates with Sally, so that she doesn't feel like a second choice waiting in the wings.
Answer Part Two:
Oh shit we're talking about teenagers.
The good news there is that all of my advice above still stands and that none of this will matter in a year or two anyway. The bad news is that - sorry to say this but I remember my own teen years too well - teenagers are, you know, kind of defined by their irrationality, selfishness, and tendency towards unnecessary drama. So this will be trickier. Steve needs to maybe mention to this close circle that he needs them to be cool to Sally, and especially Suzy, thuogh if Suzy starts to overdo things even a little bit Sally's likely to get suspicious of something.
Still, get Steve to start asking Sally out more and finding out what her plans are, and especially get her involved in what the circle is doing, and hopefully she'll start to feel more comfortable about it all.
posted by Navelgazer at 3:54 PM on November 11, 2009
This can absolutely be socially acceptable. In fact, I would argue it's healthy, at least for Steve, to remain close to those he's been romantically involved with in the past. I too have a close group of friends, which includes several ex-girlfriends who I am very happy to still be friends with, even though we will never be "together" again. Those women also had dated close friends of mine before I dated them. There was rarely if ever any real tension. Such is the way of "circle-of-friends" things: whatever holds the circle together is stronger than the jealousies and hurt surrounding breakups, and that's a good thing.
It sounds to me like the bigger problem is that Sally isn't really in the circle, or at least not to the degree that she should be for this to not be an issue. If Sally could be friends with Suzy, she probably wouldn't be suffering panic attacks over all of this, but she's probably put Suzy on some sort of pedestal that she thinks she might not be able to measure up to.
Aside from making efforts to integrate Sally into the circle more, Steve needs to take the initiative about making dates with Sally, so that she doesn't feel like a second choice waiting in the wings.
Answer Part Two:
Oh shit we're talking about teenagers.
The good news there is that all of my advice above still stands and that none of this will matter in a year or two anyway. The bad news is that - sorry to say this but I remember my own teen years too well - teenagers are, you know, kind of defined by their irrationality, selfishness, and tendency towards unnecessary drama. So this will be trickier. Steve needs to maybe mention to this close circle that he needs them to be cool to Sally, and especially Suzy, thuogh if Suzy starts to overdo things even a little bit Sally's likely to get suspicious of something.
Still, get Steve to start asking Sally out more and finding out what her plans are, and especially get her involved in what the circle is doing, and hopefully she'll start to feel more comfortable about it all.
posted by Navelgazer at 3:54 PM on November 11, 2009
Response by poster: why is Sally not included when Steve makes plans with Suzy?
Steve essentially has his own little circle that includes Suzy and 3 other friends- they do things together with some frequency. I'm one of Steve's best friends and I make a point not to try to invite myself along with them. They wouldn't let me anyway. So Suzy is most likely out of the equation as well, even being his girlfriend. They're tight knit, they call themselves a family, when it comes down to it.
So that particular problem is, as I see it, unavoidable-- a social group and dynamic that's going to stick and that his girlfriend can't get into. It's obviously a part of the problem to consider.
posted by Askiba at 4:03 PM on November 11, 2009
Steve essentially has his own little circle that includes Suzy and 3 other friends- they do things together with some frequency. I'm one of Steve's best friends and I make a point not to try to invite myself along with them. They wouldn't let me anyway. So Suzy is most likely out of the equation as well, even being his girlfriend. They're tight knit, they call themselves a family, when it comes down to it.
So that particular problem is, as I see it, unavoidable-- a social group and dynamic that's going to stick and that his girlfriend can't get into. It's obviously a part of the problem to consider.
posted by Askiba at 4:03 PM on November 11, 2009
So Suzy is most likely out of the equation as well, even being his girlfriend.
I was in Suzy's position once upon a time. It really, really sucked and fucked with my self-esteem a lot. She's probably more hurt about not being "one of the family" than she is worried about Steve cheating.
posted by oinopaponton at 4:09 PM on November 11, 2009 [8 favorites]
I was in Suzy's position once upon a time. It really, really sucked and fucked with my self-esteem a lot. She's probably more hurt about not being "one of the family" than she is worried about Steve cheating.
posted by oinopaponton at 4:09 PM on November 11, 2009 [8 favorites]
Sally's a teenager. Unfortunately, everyone has this sort of super-anxious super-awkward thing going on in high school, which leads to all kinds of weird social interactions.
Steve's a teenager. Unfortunately, everyone has this sort of these-are-my-peeps group over-bonding thing going on in high school, which leads to all kinds of weird social interactions.
The only thing that fixes weird teenage social interaction is "not being a teenager any more." Failing that, it sounds like Steve and Sally need to have a private, lengthy, likely awkward and anxious chat about their differing expectations in a relationship. I'm not even going to say "mature relationship," because that's probably off the table.
If I were Suzy, I would be going out of my way to include Sally, but I've also been known to do things like "you don't really want to date me, Ms. X is way more your type and you seem into each other."
posted by fairytale of los angeles at 4:12 PM on November 11, 2009 [2 favorites]
Steve's a teenager. Unfortunately, everyone has this sort of these-are-my-peeps group over-bonding thing going on in high school, which leads to all kinds of weird social interactions.
The only thing that fixes weird teenage social interaction is "not being a teenager any more." Failing that, it sounds like Steve and Sally need to have a private, lengthy, likely awkward and anxious chat about their differing expectations in a relationship. I'm not even going to say "mature relationship," because that's probably off the table.
If I were Suzy, I would be going out of my way to include Sally, but I've also been known to do things like "you don't really want to date me, Ms. X is way more your type and you seem into each other."
posted by fairytale of los angeles at 4:12 PM on November 11, 2009 [2 favorites]
High school age? A couple years ago? Yeesh. Kids today.
They sound kinda young to be wrapped up in this kind of drama. But the solution lies in communication. If he wants to date a high-strung girl he needs to be patient with this behavior, and she needs to chill about it a little and make plans with friends of her own.
posted by milinar at 4:13 PM on November 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
They sound kinda young to be wrapped up in this kind of drama. But the solution lies in communication. If he wants to date a high-strung girl he needs to be patient with this behavior, and she needs to chill about it a little and make plans with friends of her own.
posted by milinar at 4:13 PM on November 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
Man, when making up pseudonyms for people, feel free to not start them all with the same letter.
That said, I'm dating a girl who has become very, very close with one of my exes from years ago, and where a similar situation formed--we're still great friends, but dating didn't work out.
New girlfriend, while self-describing as "the jealous type", really gets on well with the ex and spends more time with her now than I do, though we also hang out all three of us together (or double date with ex and her beau) and doesn't mind if ex and I go grab dinner alone, etc. (Though she'd probably be annoyed if she was available and not invited, which I would understand.)
I think the key is communication, as always. Really, if it appeared that I was constantly choosing ex over the girlfriend when both were "equally" available, I can see girlfriend getting upset about that. Girlfriend occasionally works late, so ex and I will occasionally hang out or grab dinner. But when we want to hang out with ex, we usually do it together. Or they hang out together.
It's on Steve in this situation to make sure he's not choosing the ex way over the current, all else being equal. If the ex and current girl aren't about to be friends, it's his gig to balance it, but current girl sounds a bit neurotic as high schools are wont to be, and that may spell fail.
posted by disillusioned at 4:15 PM on November 11, 2009
That said, I'm dating a girl who has become very, very close with one of my exes from years ago, and where a similar situation formed--we're still great friends, but dating didn't work out.
New girlfriend, while self-describing as "the jealous type", really gets on well with the ex and spends more time with her now than I do, though we also hang out all three of us together (or double date with ex and her beau) and doesn't mind if ex and I go grab dinner alone, etc. (Though she'd probably be annoyed if she was available and not invited, which I would understand.)
I think the key is communication, as always. Really, if it appeared that I was constantly choosing ex over the girlfriend when both were "equally" available, I can see girlfriend getting upset about that. Girlfriend occasionally works late, so ex and I will occasionally hang out or grab dinner. But when we want to hang out with ex, we usually do it together. Or they hang out together.
It's on Steve in this situation to make sure he's not choosing the ex way over the current, all else being equal. If the ex and current girl aren't about to be friends, it's his gig to balance it, but current girl sounds a bit neurotic as high schools are wont to be, and that may spell fail.
posted by disillusioned at 4:15 PM on November 11, 2009
Life is too short for this kind of Wuthering Heights bullshit, and the sooner Sally learns that, the better off everybody who knows her will be.
Here's my advice to Sally. I've given similar advice before, and I'm sure I'll give similar advice again.
Sally, you may well be surrounded by popular culture telling you that jealousy is fine, jealousy is natural, jealousy is OK, jealousy is appropriate, jealousy is a way to "show somebody you love them". It's all bullshit. All of it. Real love has nothing to do with controlling somebody else; real love is about giving somebody else permission to be exactly who they are and to love you likewise. If Steve doesn't raise a desire to do that in you, then you're not in love with him anyway, and you have no right to say who he does and does not hang out with.
If you do in fact love Steve, then regardless of what you believe about Steve and Suzy and their motivations: Steve is either trustworthy or not. Your best play is to act as if he is unless presented with proof beyond reasonable doubt that he's not, at which point you dump him. Why? Because if he is trustworthy, he absolutely doesn't deserve to be treated as if he's not; and if he's not trustworthy, you're better off without him. Treating your partner as if he is about to betray you at any opportunity is a recipe for emotional pain all around. Go and rent Oliver Parker's Othello, pay attention to what the title character chooses to believe and the ruinous consequences of those beliefs, learn from them, and resolve not to make the same kind of error in your own life.
Jealous is not something you are; jealousy is something you will undoubtedly feel - everybody does - but the way adults deal with jealousy is by giving ourselves permission to feel it, reminding ourselves that acting on it is pretty much guaranteed to be destructive, and then learning to laugh at ourselves until it goes away. Don't let jealousy run your life. Rise above it. You will end up much, much happier.
posted by flabdablet at 4:15 PM on November 11, 2009 [5 favorites]
Here's my advice to Sally. I've given similar advice before, and I'm sure I'll give similar advice again.
Sally, you may well be surrounded by popular culture telling you that jealousy is fine, jealousy is natural, jealousy is OK, jealousy is appropriate, jealousy is a way to "show somebody you love them". It's all bullshit. All of it. Real love has nothing to do with controlling somebody else; real love is about giving somebody else permission to be exactly who they are and to love you likewise. If Steve doesn't raise a desire to do that in you, then you're not in love with him anyway, and you have no right to say who he does and does not hang out with.
If you do in fact love Steve, then regardless of what you believe about Steve and Suzy and their motivations: Steve is either trustworthy or not. Your best play is to act as if he is unless presented with proof beyond reasonable doubt that he's not, at which point you dump him. Why? Because if he is trustworthy, he absolutely doesn't deserve to be treated as if he's not; and if he's not trustworthy, you're better off without him. Treating your partner as if he is about to betray you at any opportunity is a recipe for emotional pain all around. Go and rent Oliver Parker's Othello, pay attention to what the title character chooses to believe and the ruinous consequences of those beliefs, learn from them, and resolve not to make the same kind of error in your own life.
Jealous is not something you are; jealousy is something you will undoubtedly feel - everybody does - but the way adults deal with jealousy is by giving ourselves permission to feel it, reminding ourselves that acting on it is pretty much guaranteed to be destructive, and then learning to laugh at ourselves until it goes away. Don't let jealousy run your life. Rise above it. You will end up much, much happier.
posted by flabdablet at 4:15 PM on November 11, 2009 [5 favorites]
Steve isn't doing anything wrong, however having been a high school girl myself once, it's not unusual for Sally to react like she is. I can't speak for guys, but girls at least are socialized by a variety of sources -- from my own experience, I'd have to say books and movies -- at that age to think not only are guys Totally Wrong for hanging out with their exes, they will Totally Cheat on them if they do, and the girl is Totally Justified for freaking out over it because the guy is a Real Jerk. You're told that if he Really Loves Her, he will Do Anything For Her and she should Be Enough For Him. Also, girls are made to be insecure about a host of other things, especially their bodies, so if Suzy is at all attractive that's going to feed the fire -- regardless of whether Sally is attractive or not. If she's mentally comparing herself to Suzy and finding herself lacking in some way -- I'm hard-pressed to define jealousy any other way -- good luck with reason.
Also, not that guys aren't insecure about things, but girls aren't as discouraged from being vocal and dramatic about their fears as guys are. Not having those pressures is good in some ways, but it also means that it's hard to get when you're wrong about something; everyone largely lets you carry on because they know talking sense to you doesn't work, and the ideas that you have in the back of your head about relationships echo around and you feel miserable and wronged. Also, it's a very hard position to reason someone out of, because to them it feels like they have the high ground and everyone else is trying to encourage them to be less good or less in love or whatever. Realize that in her mind, Sally is standing up for an ideal and most people, especially at that age, need experiences rather than reasoning to shake them out of misplaced idealism.
The bottom line is Sally hasn't been in enough relationships yet to have learned that freaking out like this means the relationship is going to end and it's going to be in large part because of her irrational behavior. I understand you want to avoid that, but I doubt it can -- or even should -- be avoided. Screwing up relationships is how we learn what not to do later. If enough guys break up with her because she's jealous, then she'll get the picture eventually.
In other words, I don't think there's a plausible happy solution for Steve. If talking to Sally doesn't work, it's her lesson to learn. I know that sucks because it's hard to think in terms of the future when people are upset right now and their relationship seems like the biggest thing that will ever happen in their lives, but in all likelihood Steve is either going to have to quit hanging out with Suzy -- which he shouldn't have to do -- or break up with Sally. If he's determined to exhaust his options then including her when he hangs out with Suzy is worth a shot; sometimes it works, but sometimes the girl is just uncomfortable and jealous and reads into every little meaningless interaction. On preview you've said that Sally just isn't going to get into that group though, so it seems pretty doomed to me. Even if Sally didn't have jealousy issues to begin with, no one at any age wants to feel like they're absolutely barred from hanging out with their partner's friends.
Just so he knows what to expect, though, it's unlikely Sally will immediately understand she was in the wrong if they break-up. It might be years and more relationships before she realizes that. In the meantime, depending on what kind of person she is, Steve should be prepared for her blaming him, badmouthing him, or whatever else. It will be hard but everyone ought to be nice to Sally anyway, if they can help it; not just because it's good to have sympathy even for irrational people, but because it will combat whatever negative things Sally might say and it might help Sally realize more quickly that she needs to work on her jealousy.
posted by Nattie at 4:19 PM on November 11, 2009
Also, not that guys aren't insecure about things, but girls aren't as discouraged from being vocal and dramatic about their fears as guys are. Not having those pressures is good in some ways, but it also means that it's hard to get when you're wrong about something; everyone largely lets you carry on because they know talking sense to you doesn't work, and the ideas that you have in the back of your head about relationships echo around and you feel miserable and wronged. Also, it's a very hard position to reason someone out of, because to them it feels like they have the high ground and everyone else is trying to encourage them to be less good or less in love or whatever. Realize that in her mind, Sally is standing up for an ideal and most people, especially at that age, need experiences rather than reasoning to shake them out of misplaced idealism.
The bottom line is Sally hasn't been in enough relationships yet to have learned that freaking out like this means the relationship is going to end and it's going to be in large part because of her irrational behavior. I understand you want to avoid that, but I doubt it can -- or even should -- be avoided. Screwing up relationships is how we learn what not to do later. If enough guys break up with her because she's jealous, then she'll get the picture eventually.
In other words, I don't think there's a plausible happy solution for Steve. If talking to Sally doesn't work, it's her lesson to learn. I know that sucks because it's hard to think in terms of the future when people are upset right now and their relationship seems like the biggest thing that will ever happen in their lives, but in all likelihood Steve is either going to have to quit hanging out with Suzy -- which he shouldn't have to do -- or break up with Sally. If he's determined to exhaust his options then including her when he hangs out with Suzy is worth a shot; sometimes it works, but sometimes the girl is just uncomfortable and jealous and reads into every little meaningless interaction. On preview you've said that Sally just isn't going to get into that group though, so it seems pretty doomed to me. Even if Sally didn't have jealousy issues to begin with, no one at any age wants to feel like they're absolutely barred from hanging out with their partner's friends.
Just so he knows what to expect, though, it's unlikely Sally will immediately understand she was in the wrong if they break-up. It might be years and more relationships before she realizes that. In the meantime, depending on what kind of person she is, Steve should be prepared for her blaming him, badmouthing him, or whatever else. It will be hard but everyone ought to be nice to Sally anyway, if they can help it; not just because it's good to have sympathy even for irrational people, but because it will combat whatever negative things Sally might say and it might help Sally realize more quickly that she needs to work on her jealousy.
posted by Nattie at 4:19 PM on November 11, 2009
So Suzy is most likely out of the equation as well, even being his girlfriend.
Well there you go. It's one thing to hang out with your ex and BFFs. It's another thing to actively and regularly exclude your current partner from an important social part of your life. No wonder the poor girl feels insecure to the point of distraction. The guy wants to have his cake and eat it too. Not cool.
posted by Sparx at 4:24 PM on November 11, 2009 [15 favorites]
Well there you go. It's one thing to hang out with your ex and BFFs. It's another thing to actively and regularly exclude your current partner from an important social part of your life. No wonder the poor girl feels insecure to the point of distraction. The guy wants to have his cake and eat it too. Not cool.
posted by Sparx at 4:24 PM on November 11, 2009 [15 favorites]
The guy wants to have his cake and eat it too.
(not referring to infidelity here, just to clarify)
posted by Sparx at 4:29 PM on November 11, 2009
(not referring to infidelity here, just to clarify)
posted by Sparx at 4:29 PM on November 11, 2009
Honestly, I think that Sally may have centered on Suzy being the problem, because it's a more socially acceptable way to register her displeasure with being excluded from her boyfriend's inner circle. What girlfriend feels comfortable with that? It's one thing to be respectful of the group, it's another thing to NEVER be invited, and to be told (either vocally or just through actions and tone) that you cannot penetrate the inner circle. Ever. Feeling uncomfortable with the Suzy thing IS, in a sort of CW teen drama sort of way, more socially "understandable" thing to be frustrated by, and doesn't run her the risk of getting the "bros before hos" response that so many girls worry about.
Someday Steve will get this, and hopefully Sally will also one day understand that there's nothing wrong with HER that's causing her to be excluded, which should minimize her anxiety and self-confidence issues a bit.
I do think, for what it's worth, the relationships we have in our youth have a major impact on the way we approach relationships in our adulthood, and can get us tripped up through our twenties and even later, depending on how difficult and dramatic they were. If Sally and Steve can talk this through and come to an understanding about what the problem is (they have different ideas of what boyfriends and girlfriends are to eachother, neither one of them is in the right or wrong), whether or not they break up, it will be a good growing experience for the both of them.
posted by pazazygeek at 4:34 PM on November 11, 2009 [2 favorites]
Someday Steve will get this, and hopefully Sally will also one day understand that there's nothing wrong with HER that's causing her to be excluded, which should minimize her anxiety and self-confidence issues a bit.
I do think, for what it's worth, the relationships we have in our youth have a major impact on the way we approach relationships in our adulthood, and can get us tripped up through our twenties and even later, depending on how difficult and dramatic they were. If Sally and Steve can talk this through and come to an understanding about what the problem is (they have different ideas of what boyfriends and girlfriends are to eachother, neither one of them is in the right or wrong), whether or not they break up, it will be a good growing experience for the both of them.
posted by pazazygeek at 4:34 PM on November 11, 2009 [2 favorites]
a social group and dynamic that's going to stick and that his girlfriend can't get into.
Well, you've done an excellent job of painting Sally as a crazy bitch, when the full story is Sally's fears are understandable in light of the fact that she's excluded from gatherings that include Steve and Suzy, his ex.
He wants a peaceful resolution that leaves both his relationships, romantic and not, intact.
He should invite his girlfriend to come along on these overnight and weekend trips, so that she can be fully included in his life and not perpetually left behind. Otherwise he should own up to the fact that he's putting his friends before his SO, make peace with that and only date people who are ok with that once he's been upfront about his situation before things get serious.
To point it plainly, Steve is acting like self absorbed twit and whatever problems Sally may have, his behavior is only rubbing salt in her wounds. Sure, that's not his fault or responsibility, but he should aware of the effect of his behavior.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:41 PM on November 11, 2009 [9 favorites]
Well, you've done an excellent job of painting Sally as a crazy bitch, when the full story is Sally's fears are understandable in light of the fact that she's excluded from gatherings that include Steve and Suzy, his ex.
He wants a peaceful resolution that leaves both his relationships, romantic and not, intact.
He should invite his girlfriend to come along on these overnight and weekend trips, so that she can be fully included in his life and not perpetually left behind. Otherwise he should own up to the fact that he's putting his friends before his SO, make peace with that and only date people who are ok with that once he's been upfront about his situation before things get serious.
To point it plainly, Steve is acting like self absorbed twit and whatever problems Sally may have, his behavior is only rubbing salt in her wounds. Sure, that's not his fault or responsibility, but he should aware of the effect of his behavior.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:41 PM on November 11, 2009 [9 favorites]
Response by poster: Well, you've done an excellent job of painting Sally as a crazy bitch
I can see why you'd say that, but it was not what I was trying to convey. My opinion is that she, like me and anyone else my age, is just a teenager, stuff gets dramatic, we get over it, we learn from it and try not to make the same mistakes. I merely presented the information that she was the anxious one because I thought it was important to mention.
I never tried to play down the importance of her fears. She treats me like a brother, and she's one of my better friends as well. I'm just used to Sally regularly growing quite anxious for reasons that I don't understand.
It has pretty much numbed me to being overly concerned, because when I do get concerned and help, it never works out very well. One day it's "F*** my life! I want to kill myself!" and then I see her the next day and she's cheerier then I've ever seen her. Excuse me for not understanding the minutiae of the brain.
Other then that Brandon I pretty much agree with what you're getting out. Trying to break the exclusiveness of this group (something I realize is pretty lame and not nice in the first place) is something that I should get Steve to do.
Man, when making up pseudonyms for people, feel free to not start them all with the same letter.
I was actually tempted to use Allie, Billy, and Cassie. But I was in an S mood.
My growing opinion is that I should try not to help so much. I can talk to Steve about the excellent thoughts you all have presented. But it'll have to be his choice whether he wants to move forward with any of it.
posted by Askiba at 5:05 PM on November 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
I can see why you'd say that, but it was not what I was trying to convey. My opinion is that she, like me and anyone else my age, is just a teenager, stuff gets dramatic, we get over it, we learn from it and try not to make the same mistakes. I merely presented the information that she was the anxious one because I thought it was important to mention.
I never tried to play down the importance of her fears. She treats me like a brother, and she's one of my better friends as well. I'm just used to Sally regularly growing quite anxious for reasons that I don't understand.
It has pretty much numbed me to being overly concerned, because when I do get concerned and help, it never works out very well. One day it's "F*** my life! I want to kill myself!" and then I see her the next day and she's cheerier then I've ever seen her. Excuse me for not understanding the minutiae of the brain.
Other then that Brandon I pretty much agree with what you're getting out. Trying to break the exclusiveness of this group (something I realize is pretty lame and not nice in the first place) is something that I should get Steve to do.
Man, when making up pseudonyms for people, feel free to not start them all with the same letter.
I was actually tempted to use Allie, Billy, and Cassie. But I was in an S mood.
My growing opinion is that I should try not to help so much. I can talk to Steve about the excellent thoughts you all have presented. But it'll have to be his choice whether he wants to move forward with any of it.
posted by Askiba at 5:05 PM on November 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
It's not okay if it's not okay with Sally.
And it's not okay for Steve to ignore Sally about things that Sally is not okay with.
The Largely Mythological Husband's ex-girlfriend is one of our close friends. We've loaned her tens of thousands of dollars we don't ever expect to get back. Sometimes LMH and I hang out with her together; sometimes LMH and she get together without me.
The thing is that I'm okay with that. When I have felt like my comfort zone was being infringed on, I discussed it with LMH and we came to a resolution that made both of us happy.
That's what's important--Steve doesn't "have to" cut his ex out of his life. What he has to do is respect Sally's boundaries and wishes to some extent, not to just brush them off.
posted by Sidhedevil at 5:07 PM on November 11, 2009 [2 favorites]
And it's not okay for Steve to ignore Sally about things that Sally is not okay with.
The Largely Mythological Husband's ex-girlfriend is one of our close friends. We've loaned her tens of thousands of dollars we don't ever expect to get back. Sometimes LMH and I hang out with her together; sometimes LMH and she get together without me.
The thing is that I'm okay with that. When I have felt like my comfort zone was being infringed on, I discussed it with LMH and we came to a resolution that made both of us happy.
That's what's important--Steve doesn't "have to" cut his ex out of his life. What he has to do is respect Sally's boundaries and wishes to some extent, not to just brush them off.
posted by Sidhedevil at 5:07 PM on November 11, 2009 [2 favorites]
I see these questions all the time here. Is it acceptable to do X in a relationship?
There is no giant tablet with burning letters on it circling Jupiter that lays out the "socially acceptable" rules of anything. There is no "socially acceptable" anything. You cannot refer to such a list because none exists. You will find many opinions on the matter. Sally is not "entitled" to be free of Steve hanging out with his ex any more than Steve is "entitled" to have Sally not have a problem with it. Both positions are legitimate.
I think its better to think about things in terms of what these individuals want and how they can work things out for the best. Sally needs to consciously articulate what she wants "no more hanging out with Susie," and Steve needs to articulate what he wants. Then, they need to find out where they are. Is either party willing to compromise? Can both compromise? Can some other reassuring behavior on the part of Steve or Susie help Sally accept Steve hanging out with Susie? Can conditions on the hanging out be set that create an acceptable set of circumstances that allow for Steve and Susie to hang out? Is this a dealbreaker that will cause one party to leave? Are Susie's demands just a way to deal with her fears?
The reason this works best is because otherwise you get into manipulation. Trying to apply some universal standard where none exists is a rhetorical gambit aimed at cowing one party into submission. Both parties think their position right.
We are allowed, in the end, to set whatever conditions on our relationships we want. Others, in turn, need not accept these conditions. That's why things don't work out sometimes.
posted by Ironmouth at 5:30 PM on November 11, 2009 [3 favorites]
There is no giant tablet with burning letters on it circling Jupiter that lays out the "socially acceptable" rules of anything. There is no "socially acceptable" anything. You cannot refer to such a list because none exists. You will find many opinions on the matter. Sally is not "entitled" to be free of Steve hanging out with his ex any more than Steve is "entitled" to have Sally not have a problem with it. Both positions are legitimate.
I think its better to think about things in terms of what these individuals want and how they can work things out for the best. Sally needs to consciously articulate what she wants "no more hanging out with Susie," and Steve needs to articulate what he wants. Then, they need to find out where they are. Is either party willing to compromise? Can both compromise? Can some other reassuring behavior on the part of Steve or Susie help Sally accept Steve hanging out with Susie? Can conditions on the hanging out be set that create an acceptable set of circumstances that allow for Steve and Susie to hang out? Is this a dealbreaker that will cause one party to leave? Are Susie's demands just a way to deal with her fears?
The reason this works best is because otherwise you get into manipulation. Trying to apply some universal standard where none exists is a rhetorical gambit aimed at cowing one party into submission. Both parties think their position right.
We are allowed, in the end, to set whatever conditions on our relationships we want. Others, in turn, need not accept these conditions. That's why things don't work out sometimes.
posted by Ironmouth at 5:30 PM on November 11, 2009 [3 favorites]
Jealous is not something you are; jealousy is something you will undoubtedly feel - everybody does - but the way adults deal with jealousy is by giving ourselves permission to feel it, reminding ourselves that acting on it is pretty much guaranteed to be destructive
This is Yoda-level shit and should be listened to. Buddhism 101 and right on point.
posted by Ironmouth at 5:36 PM on November 11, 2009 [4 favorites]
This is Yoda-level shit and should be listened to. Buddhism 101 and right on point.
posted by Ironmouth at 5:36 PM on November 11, 2009 [4 favorites]
Because you seem to be approaching this in a fairly grown-up manner, I'm going to tell you what I would tell my grown-up friends with similar problems: a big part of the problems here aren't with Sally, or with Suzy, or even with Steve, but about communicating in regards to planning. When I was (still a teenager and-) first dating my now-husband, I was pretty insecure, pretty shy, and sometimes jealous. But what alleviated that significantly was instituting regular date nights. We'd pick one day a week when, unless one of us was terribly ill or had a final, we would hang out. Even if we didn't know our specific plans yet, we'd know we were hanging out. There was an understanding that on those Tuesdays or Thursdays or whatever, the SO would come first--and, yes, I regularly would tell my friends "Sorry, guys, but that's a date night. I have to check with SO before I make plans." It might sound like an overly rigid suggestion, but it was the kind of stability I dearly needed, after a pretty tumultuous adolescence. It showed me that Mr. WanKenobi was willing to set time aside for me, to make us a priority. And, bonus, it generally freed up our schedules the rest of the time. If Steve isn't willing to set aside one night a week for hanging out with Sally, then they have bigger problems.
You haven't said how Sally's behavior has been erratic, and I think that might be relevant. In fact, if she's regularly getting upset about this, it sounds pretty consistent. To be honest, I'd be upset, too, if my SO had a group of friends who completed excluded me--that that group included an ex would just be icing on the cake. Whether hanging out with an ex is generally acceptable, of course, depends on the individuals involved.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 5:50 PM on November 11, 2009 [2 favorites]
You haven't said how Sally's behavior has been erratic, and I think that might be relevant. In fact, if she's regularly getting upset about this, it sounds pretty consistent. To be honest, I'd be upset, too, if my SO had a group of friends who completed excluded me--that that group included an ex would just be icing on the cake. Whether hanging out with an ex is generally acceptable, of course, depends on the individuals involved.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 5:50 PM on November 11, 2009 [2 favorites]
It has pretty much numbed me to being overly concerned, because when I do get concerned and help, it never works out very well. One day it's "F*** my life! I want to kill myself!" and then I see her the next day and she's cheerier then I've ever seen her. Excuse me for not understanding the minutiae of the brain.
Oh, I see. I remember a lot of that in high school, too. The best way to respond is to listen, but not to particularly indulge the hysterical behavior, if only because doing so can be a draining nightmare for you.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 5:52 PM on November 11, 2009
Oh, I see. I remember a lot of that in high school, too. The best way to respond is to listen, but not to particularly indulge the hysterical behavior, if only because doing so can be a draining nightmare for you.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 5:52 PM on November 11, 2009
I were Sally, I'd be annoyed and distressed that I wasn't a priority for my boyfriend, especially if his ex *did* seem to be a priority. It's not so much "you shouldn't hang with an ex" but rather "you shouldn't prefer to hang with an ex than with your girlfriend".
posted by leahwrenn at 6:32 PM on November 11, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by leahwrenn at 6:32 PM on November 11, 2009 [2 favorites]
It's okay to do things that your partner is happy about. It's not okay to do things your partner is not happy about.
If your partner is not happy about the things you do, you can either
- not do it
- get rid of your partner, or
- convince them that they should be happy about it.
It sounds like Steve isn't going to give up his 'family'. It sounds like he isn't going to include Sally, which would make her happy. And he's not going to break up with her 'quite yet'.
The only solution I can see is for him to explain that there's nothing going on with Suzy, that their group is a tight-knit one that isn't open to new people (that's a tough one to explain), but that he'll try to make up for it in other ways. These other ways could be having a regular time they see each other, regardless of what Suzy et al are doing, so she's got an opportunity to plan her dates without him being booked out.
posted by twirlypen at 6:38 PM on November 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
If your partner is not happy about the things you do, you can either
- not do it
- get rid of your partner, or
- convince them that they should be happy about it.
It sounds like Steve isn't going to give up his 'family'. It sounds like he isn't going to include Sally, which would make her happy. And he's not going to break up with her 'quite yet'.
The only solution I can see is for him to explain that there's nothing going on with Suzy, that their group is a tight-knit one that isn't open to new people (that's a tough one to explain), but that he'll try to make up for it in other ways. These other ways could be having a regular time they see each other, regardless of what Suzy et al are doing, so she's got an opportunity to plan her dates without him being booked out.
posted by twirlypen at 6:38 PM on November 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
So Steve tells his girlfriend that he's going to hang out with his ex girlfriend on a regular basis and that she's not welcome, and that he and the ex are family and she's not welcome to this family and then wonders why she's upset? Yeah, Steve is a jerk. The girlfriend's not irrational, the way she's behaving is entirely understandable. Why she'd want to be with someone who treats her like this is beyond me. Ask Steve if he would like it if someone treated him like that. Steve needs to break up with her and shouldn't date again until he learns how to treat girlfriends better.
posted by Jubey at 6:52 PM on November 11, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by Jubey at 6:52 PM on November 11, 2009 [2 favorites]
My growing opinion is that I should try not to help so much. I can talk to Steve about the excellent thoughts you all have presented. But it'll have to be his choice whether he wants to move forward with any of it.
This!
You are obviously very mature and want to be a good friend. This is going to make you CRAZY all throughout highschool, because you have the rare emotional maturity to understand that to solve relationship problems you need to ask for advice and be willing to admit when you might have acted insensitively or missed something or hurt somebody's feelings.
I know many people three times your age who have not figured this out yet; hardly anybody you know in highschool will have. So, while I'm sure Steve is one of your best friends and you want to help him navigate this, and Sally is one of your close friends and while you don't (or didn't) understand her pain exactly you recognized it as real and want to help -- but the lesson for YOU here is to not get dragged too far down into the rabbit hole.
When Steve complains to you about Sally being unfair, you can remind him that she's not too off her rocker for feeling excluded and try to make him understand. When Sally is FLIPPING out about Suzy, you can try to calm her down by reminding her that it's not a failing on her part, but Steve's immature loyalty to the "tight knit nobody shall breach our shores" group, and help her to focus her hurt feelings a little more.
Beyond that? Focus your awesomely high EQ on your own life so you don't go bonkers. :)
posted by pazazygeek at 7:05 PM on November 11, 2009
This!
You are obviously very mature and want to be a good friend. This is going to make you CRAZY all throughout highschool, because you have the rare emotional maturity to understand that to solve relationship problems you need to ask for advice and be willing to admit when you might have acted insensitively or missed something or hurt somebody's feelings.
I know many people three times your age who have not figured this out yet; hardly anybody you know in highschool will have. So, while I'm sure Steve is one of your best friends and you want to help him navigate this, and Sally is one of your close friends and while you don't (or didn't) understand her pain exactly you recognized it as real and want to help -- but the lesson for YOU here is to not get dragged too far down into the rabbit hole.
When Steve complains to you about Sally being unfair, you can remind him that she's not too off her rocker for feeling excluded and try to make him understand. When Sally is FLIPPING out about Suzy, you can try to calm her down by reminding her that it's not a failing on her part, but Steve's immature loyalty to the "tight knit nobody shall breach our shores" group, and help her to focus her hurt feelings a little more.
Beyond that? Focus your awesomely high EQ on your own life so you don't go bonkers. :)
posted by pazazygeek at 7:05 PM on November 11, 2009
Hanging out with your ex? OK
Hanging out with your ex when your girlfriend isn't invited? Repeatedly? Completely the opposite of OK.
posted by dagnyscott at 8:01 PM on November 11, 2009
Hanging out with your ex when your girlfriend isn't invited? Repeatedly? Completely the opposite of OK.
posted by dagnyscott at 8:01 PM on November 11, 2009
Is it OK to regularly hang out with one of your past girlfriends while dating someone else?
Of course it is. New relationships do not have the right to sever old friendships.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 8:02 PM on November 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
Of course it is. New relationships do not have the right to sever old friendships.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 8:02 PM on November 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
Sally should dump Steve - he values too many folks before her. She is not a "Significant Other." Sally is someone Steve is only casually dating.
And I might add, Sally is someone Steve has been casually dating for far too long not to make a significant commitment with.
As such, you can:
a) Help Sally see that Steve really isn't that into her.
b) Help Steve see he's really not that into Sally and should do the right thing by commiting or letting her go.
c) Politely stay out of it.
I vote "c." But only because I doubt Sally and Steve can benefit from your wisdom.
Good Luck.
posted by jbenben at 8:28 PM on November 11, 2009
And I might add, Sally is someone Steve has been casually dating for far too long not to make a significant commitment with.
As such, you can:
a) Help Sally see that Steve really isn't that into her.
b) Help Steve see he's really not that into Sally and should do the right thing by commiting or letting her go.
c) Politely stay out of it.
I vote "c." But only because I doubt Sally and Steve can benefit from your wisdom.
Good Luck.
posted by jbenben at 8:28 PM on November 11, 2009
Steve isn't inviting Sally along because he knows (quite possibly from experience) that Sally will totally, like, freak the fuck out and kill the vibe and ruin any enjoyment Steve and his righteous posse get from hanging out together.
I've been there (with a Sally aged 30!) and basically, screw it. Break up. You're all teenagers, keep life fun, save this shit for when you've got mortgages to distract you from the jobs you hate! Cut Sally loose now, it'll all be forgotten in a month.
posted by dickasso at 8:42 PM on November 11, 2009
I've been there (with a Sally aged 30!) and basically, screw it. Break up. You're all teenagers, keep life fun, save this shit for when you've got mortgages to distract you from the jobs you hate! Cut Sally loose now, it'll all be forgotten in a month.
posted by dickasso at 8:42 PM on November 11, 2009
Let me rephrase and simplify your question:
"Sally has a problem with Steve hanging out with his ex-girlfriend on a regular basis. Is it okay for Steve to hang out with his ex-girlfriend on a regular basis?"
The answer, I should think, is that of course it is not okay if he wants to stay in this relationship. Now, in lots of other relationships, it may or may not be fine, but we're talking about this one. Both people in a relationship establish their boundaries, and if they're not compatible, sooner or later the relationship is going to end. This is one of those situations. Either she gives on her boundary or he gives on his, or the relationship ends. Not really rocket science, this one.
posted by davejay at 9:36 PM on November 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
"Sally has a problem with Steve hanging out with his ex-girlfriend on a regular basis. Is it okay for Steve to hang out with his ex-girlfriend on a regular basis?"
The answer, I should think, is that of course it is not okay if he wants to stay in this relationship. Now, in lots of other relationships, it may or may not be fine, but we're talking about this one. Both people in a relationship establish their boundaries, and if they're not compatible, sooner or later the relationship is going to end. This is one of those situations. Either she gives on her boundary or he gives on his, or the relationship ends. Not really rocket science, this one.
posted by davejay at 9:36 PM on November 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
My growing opinion is that I should try not to help so much. I can talk to Steve about the excellent thoughts you all have presented. But it'll have to be his choice whether he wants to move forward with any of it.
Good call.
posted by salvia at 11:43 PM on November 11, 2009
Good call.
posted by salvia at 11:43 PM on November 11, 2009
You should probably just stay out of it.
posted by bunny hugger at 6:34 AM on November 12, 2009
posted by bunny hugger at 6:34 AM on November 12, 2009
A lot of high school age relationships aren't what we later classify as relationships. They're two young people sexually attracted to each other and willing to do things of whatever variety/intensity with each other. This can often lead to problems when the 'friend' part of boyfriend/girlfriend drops off the radar.
Steve needs to start treating Sally as a friend and not just a 'highschool girlfriend'. Include her in activities with Suzy, demonstrate that Suzy doesn't constitute a threat and that they're not worried about Sally knowing what they get up to on these 'family' trips. Until then, Sally is going to be understandably jealous.
posted by knapah at 1:27 PM on November 12, 2009
Steve needs to start treating Sally as a friend and not just a 'highschool girlfriend'. Include her in activities with Suzy, demonstrate that Suzy doesn't constitute a threat and that they're not worried about Sally knowing what they get up to on these 'family' trips. Until then, Sally is going to be understandably jealous.
posted by knapah at 1:27 PM on November 12, 2009
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on, you guys aren't seeing the most important thing.
Ah, so the key here is that Steve and Sally are part of a clique. The clique does what it does. For a little while, two members of the clique dated. That happens. The two broke up. That also happens. But post-breakup, people tend to go back to original behavior -- especially since not, would involve one person or the other leaving the clique. Not comfortable for anyone.
So Steve and Sally have returned to their original state, which was not "don't know eachother" but "krew in a clique".
Here, now, lies the rub. Is Steve allowed to date anyone else? Duh, of course. Does Steve have to abandon his krew to do so? Of course not. Does it matter than Steve and Sally end up seeing eachother when he's hanging out with his krew? Not a whit. He's not seeing her in a "tempting fate out doing proto sexy things" context. He's seeing her with krew.
Hell, if it makes Sally feel better, the rest of the clique really doesn't want the drama of those two hooking up again, and are acting (whether they know it or not) as sort of chaperones. On the drama scale:
1: No hookup, ever
2: Hookup, over, everything like it was
3: Hookup, over, gf whining
4: Hookup restarted
5: Either party leaves clique
The krew wants 1 back, but that's not possible. 4 and 5 are really bad. 2 is the desired realistic state.
3 is where things are at, and there's a real easy way to get from 3 to 2. However, it's less drama if the gf deals, than if she storms off. So the krew wants 2 w/ the GF's consent, will eventually cause 2 with the GF gone, because 5 Must Not Happen.
I'll leave the chemistry/physics/mathematics/drama-as-energy-to-be-minimized equations to others, but it's very precisely what's occuring here. Sometimes, your subconscious is not actually an asshole :)
posted by effugas at 9:39 PM on November 12, 2009
Ah, so the key here is that Steve and Sally are part of a clique. The clique does what it does. For a little while, two members of the clique dated. That happens. The two broke up. That also happens. But post-breakup, people tend to go back to original behavior -- especially since not, would involve one person or the other leaving the clique. Not comfortable for anyone.
So Steve and Sally have returned to their original state, which was not "don't know eachother" but "krew in a clique".
Here, now, lies the rub. Is Steve allowed to date anyone else? Duh, of course. Does Steve have to abandon his krew to do so? Of course not. Does it matter than Steve and Sally end up seeing eachother when he's hanging out with his krew? Not a whit. He's not seeing her in a "tempting fate out doing proto sexy things" context. He's seeing her with krew.
Hell, if it makes Sally feel better, the rest of the clique really doesn't want the drama of those two hooking up again, and are acting (whether they know it or not) as sort of chaperones. On the drama scale:
1: No hookup, ever
2: Hookup, over, everything like it was
3: Hookup, over, gf whining
4: Hookup restarted
5: Either party leaves clique
The krew wants 1 back, but that's not possible. 4 and 5 are really bad. 2 is the desired realistic state.
3 is where things are at, and there's a real easy way to get from 3 to 2. However, it's less drama if the gf deals, than if she storms off. So the krew wants 2 w/ the GF's consent, will eventually cause 2 with the GF gone, because 5 Must Not Happen.
I'll leave the chemistry/physics/mathematics/drama-as-energy-to-be-minimized equations to others, but it's very precisely what's occuring here. Sometimes, your subconscious is not actually an asshole :)
posted by effugas at 9:39 PM on November 12, 2009
In other news, your use of Steve/Sally/Suzy has confused things. In the above reply, all instances of "Sally" should be replaced with "Suzy". All instances of GF should be replaced with Sally.
posted by effugas at 9:55 PM on November 12, 2009
posted by effugas at 9:55 PM on November 12, 2009
Response by poster: Update? Yes. So many months later, but yes. I needed time.
Since I made this post, it's been... almost depressing to watch.
The two broke up a week after I posted this question. As I said earlier I presented what I'd learned from all of you to the couple individually. I urged them to discuss this issue, and they say they did. However, as with all the problems cropping up since then, "talking about it" means sitting around, being awkward and dodging the question until they either leave or forget about it somehow (according to Steve). They're really terrible at this sort of thing, but I guess I can't blame them. Sorry about the confusing name structure again.
I'd thought he'd taken my advice when he broke up with her that day. I brought him over for some Cokes to talk about it. Sally called me in tears and asked me if I was aware of it. I said yes and told her to go collect herself. She spent the rest of the day crying. Steve was pretty shaken about it.
The next day. Sally has a smile on her face. A little somber but... it's as if nothing has happened. Later that day I discover that the two are back together- in less then 24 hours, after perhaps the most dramatic stuff I've seen in high school (trust me, that's surprising), they were back together and in love.
Wait, what?
As she'd later refer to it in a facebook post, she'd had her heart broken and mended by the same person. That wrenches my gut somehow. Steve had immediately regretted the decision because he'd had feelings for her. Understandable. For him, I suppose.
The two go on, but now I'm noticing a complete lack of intimacy. They no longer greeted each other with big hugs, but with wistful glances. The occasional hug would pop in, that was it. It was if they'd lost the 'spark' somehow. This continues for months.
A couple of weeks ago they seem.. unaware of it. They're together. She's as happy as can be. Hugging again. Steve seems spaced out, not really into all of it. He tells me she's back to her old self, right when I posted this question. Just really mean to everyone. She stopped talking to me because she thought I was a "huge jerk".**
We're back where we started, boys and girls... now I just need to ask Steve what the problem is again. Suzy, the ex, now seems to be largely out of the picture. Steve and this ex, sadly, don't talk so much anymore, let alone hang out. And it's likely because of the aforementioned drama.
One thing I'll say is that sometimes you have to compromise in a relationship. But if you keep on doing it, eventually you'll have given up a lot of the things you like. And that's what's going on. Eventually Steve is going to be under her whim, not doing anything she doesn't like (it's sometimes as harmless as say... playing basketball with the guys).
This relationship is going down in flames, just like Sally's last one (that's right.. it played out similar to this, sadly). I've just about given up trying to help Sally. As a person, I like her less and less every day, and it's not even because of this. I could go on but I won't.
Steve, I may offer words of advice, but. Eventually Sally's going to learn that she's just not doing this whole relationship thing right.
I'm just watching and anonymously narrating that story, I suppose.
(I typed this quickly. Feel free to rage at me for anything I might have said, I'll try and defend or correct it)
** (explanation: this whole time I've had a girlfriend, in January for inspecific reasons she left me. I proceed to get over it like a normal person, and now this ex doesn't want to speak to me again because she "heard some mean and jerky things". It was actually really stupid facebook drama- one of her friends told me that my ex's mom unfriended me because I put up a profile picture with an ex girlfriend. My response was "So what? It's not her business what I do on my personal account. She can unfriend me all she likes." I'll admit. I'm a huge asshole. But the people that know me are used to it. I try not to be, and all, and usually I regret it. But alas THIS IS TOO LONG!
posted by Askiba at 10:18 AM on February 6, 2010
Since I made this post, it's been... almost depressing to watch.
The two broke up a week after I posted this question. As I said earlier I presented what I'd learned from all of you to the couple individually. I urged them to discuss this issue, and they say they did. However, as with all the problems cropping up since then, "talking about it" means sitting around, being awkward and dodging the question until they either leave or forget about it somehow (according to Steve). They're really terrible at this sort of thing, but I guess I can't blame them. Sorry about the confusing name structure again.
I'd thought he'd taken my advice when he broke up with her that day. I brought him over for some Cokes to talk about it. Sally called me in tears and asked me if I was aware of it. I said yes and told her to go collect herself. She spent the rest of the day crying. Steve was pretty shaken about it.
The next day. Sally has a smile on her face. A little somber but... it's as if nothing has happened. Later that day I discover that the two are back together- in less then 24 hours, after perhaps the most dramatic stuff I've seen in high school (trust me, that's surprising), they were back together and in love.
Wait, what?
As she'd later refer to it in a facebook post, she'd had her heart broken and mended by the same person. That wrenches my gut somehow. Steve had immediately regretted the decision because he'd had feelings for her. Understandable. For him, I suppose.
The two go on, but now I'm noticing a complete lack of intimacy. They no longer greeted each other with big hugs, but with wistful glances. The occasional hug would pop in, that was it. It was if they'd lost the 'spark' somehow. This continues for months.
A couple of weeks ago they seem.. unaware of it. They're together. She's as happy as can be. Hugging again. Steve seems spaced out, not really into all of it. He tells me she's back to her old self, right when I posted this question. Just really mean to everyone. She stopped talking to me because she thought I was a "huge jerk".**
We're back where we started, boys and girls... now I just need to ask Steve what the problem is again. Suzy, the ex, now seems to be largely out of the picture. Steve and this ex, sadly, don't talk so much anymore, let alone hang out. And it's likely because of the aforementioned drama.
One thing I'll say is that sometimes you have to compromise in a relationship. But if you keep on doing it, eventually you'll have given up a lot of the things you like. And that's what's going on. Eventually Steve is going to be under her whim, not doing anything she doesn't like (it's sometimes as harmless as say... playing basketball with the guys).
This relationship is going down in flames, just like Sally's last one (that's right.. it played out similar to this, sadly). I've just about given up trying to help Sally. As a person, I like her less and less every day, and it's not even because of this. I could go on but I won't.
Steve, I may offer words of advice, but. Eventually Sally's going to learn that she's just not doing this whole relationship thing right.
I'm just watching and anonymously narrating that story, I suppose.
(I typed this quickly. Feel free to rage at me for anything I might have said, I'll try and defend or correct it)
** (explanation: this whole time I've had a girlfriend, in January for inspecific reasons she left me. I proceed to get over it like a normal person, and now this ex doesn't want to speak to me again because she "heard some mean and jerky things". It was actually really stupid facebook drama- one of her friends told me that my ex's mom unfriended me because I put up a profile picture with an ex girlfriend. My response was "So what? It's not her business what I do on my personal account. She can unfriend me all she likes." I'll admit. I'm a huge asshole. But the people that know me are used to it. I try not to be, and all, and usually I regret it. But alas THIS IS TOO LONG!
posted by Askiba at 10:18 AM on February 6, 2010
Something I've learned about other people's relationships: unless, say, one partner is cheating and putting the other at risk for STDs (and some people will disagree with me about even this point), stay out of it. Even your advising Steve following their initial breakup sounds like complete overinvolvement in someone else's relationship. Even at the beginning of a breakup, people will remember you badmouthing their significant other--and they'll tell them, when they inevitably get back together. Or, worse, your insistence that their partner is approaching the relationship in the wrong way will make them cling to that partner defensively. It's fine to be there for your friends; it's fine to listen to their problems. It's another to try to dictate or even advise the course of their relationship, and will only end up frustrating you and making you look like the bad guy. Seriously, lay off trying to advise either of them.
(And honestly? The narratives of both of the relationships here--Steves and your own--seem to be saturated with some really depressing and disheartening sexism; compromise in a relationship with a girl can only lead to "being under a woman's whim." No matter how valid a woman's complaints that she's being left out of plans because of an ex--and many people here told you Sally's complaints were valid--it's "drama." When justifiably upset about a break-up, you just tell Sally that she needs to go "collect herself." WTF kind of condescension is that? I think you have a lot of things to learn about relationships--and about women.)
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 4:08 PM on February 6, 2010
(And honestly? The narratives of both of the relationships here--Steves and your own--seem to be saturated with some really depressing and disheartening sexism; compromise in a relationship with a girl can only lead to "being under a woman's whim." No matter how valid a woman's complaints that she's being left out of plans because of an ex--and many people here told you Sally's complaints were valid--it's "drama." When justifiably upset about a break-up, you just tell Sally that she needs to go "collect herself." WTF kind of condescension is that? I think you have a lot of things to learn about relationships--and about women.)
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 4:08 PM on February 6, 2010
Response by poster: It's another to try to dictate or even advise the course of their relationship, and will only end up frustrating you and making you look like the bad guy. Seriously, lay off trying to advise either of them.
I'm not doing this for my health. They were asking me. I haven't talked to them since this.
compromise in a relationship with a girl can only lead to "being under a woman's whim."
This has to do more with, in my experience, the stark reality that you do the same thing to her, and you both end up unhappy.
No matter how valid a woman's complaints that she's being left out of plans because of an ex--and many people here told you Sally's complaints were valid--it's "drama."
It's a term that's stuck in my head from hearing people use it so often. You have to realize though. It is an unhappy situation that is having other people sucked into it. If my use of the word drama is somehow incorrect, then I'm not too proud of myself.
When justifiably upset about a break-up, you just tell Sally that she needs to go "collect herself."
I don't know how that's condescending. What I implied (and again, remember.. I am paraphrasing this conversation, it's not verbatim) was that she needed to have time to herself to think and try to relax. At least where I'm from, that's a perfectly neutral thing to say.
I think you have a lot of things to learn about relationships--and about women.
Yeah, I do.
posted by Askiba at 5:45 PM on February 12, 2010
I'm not doing this for my health. They were asking me. I haven't talked to them since this.
compromise in a relationship with a girl can only lead to "being under a woman's whim."
This has to do more with, in my experience, the stark reality that you do the same thing to her, and you both end up unhappy.
No matter how valid a woman's complaints that she's being left out of plans because of an ex--and many people here told you Sally's complaints were valid--it's "drama."
It's a term that's stuck in my head from hearing people use it so often. You have to realize though. It is an unhappy situation that is having other people sucked into it. If my use of the word drama is somehow incorrect, then I'm not too proud of myself.
When justifiably upset about a break-up, you just tell Sally that she needs to go "collect herself."
I don't know how that's condescending. What I implied (and again, remember.. I am paraphrasing this conversation, it's not verbatim) was that she needed to have time to herself to think and try to relax. At least where I'm from, that's a perfectly neutral thing to say.
I think you have a lot of things to learn about relationships--and about women.
Yeah, I do.
posted by Askiba at 5:45 PM on February 12, 2010
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It's a jealousy thing, which exists because of the inherent ambiguity in that particular phrase right there (really? no romantic interest? how about tomorrow? next week? next month? how about if everyone's drunk? is it always going to be the same answer, every single time, forever?), and people's reactions to ambiguity (something must be happening, something is bound to happen, something has happened in the past to make me think something is bound to happen, my parents never loved me, etc).
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 3:41 PM on November 11, 2009 [1 favorite]