Either She's The Neighbour From Hell, Or I Am
September 27, 2009 3:34 PM Subscribe
Quick, Easy, Cheap (or Free!) DIY Soundproofing?
So my housemate has moved out and I’ve taken his room upstairs in our two-storey townhouse. It’s a good room, very spacious, and with plenty of power outlets (a rarity on the Brisbane rental market), so I said to myself “Huh, might as well put my home theatre setup in here” (TV, 5.1 sound, Xbox, etc.). So I did and I was listening to some Beatles whilst I pottered about, and it was at what I thought was a very reasonable level (as in, I could hear it from the lounge room adjoining the bedroom but not really from anywhere else in the house), but within a few minutes my next door neighbour was banging on the door demanding I turn it down. I complied, even though it was only about 5 o’clock in the afternoon, but I was pretty pissed off about it because she has a crap car and doesn’t know how to drive so her brakes are squealing for about 45 minutes every morning and evening as she figures out how to use the driveway.
Anyway, I understand how annoying noise can be and I appreciate that it probably upset her (she’s entitled to quiet enjoyment of her home, after all). This is a block of five townhouses, only a few years old, but it appears no consideration was given by the builders to the fact that noise travels and that two plaster walls and wooden floorboards are basically only conduits for sound. I don’t want to be kicking back and have her bashing on the door again, since we’ve all got to get along. And my guess is it’s the subwoofer (which sits directly on the floor) that is the chief point of concern.
So, what are some cheap and easy ways to stop people from complaining about noise? Should I put the subwoofer on a stand of some kind? A big bookshelf is going against the wall most directly attached to her, which should suck up some of the sound, but it probably won’t be enough. I can't drill holes in the wall or pump foam anywhere - I basically have to use what I've got, or what can be gotten cheaply, and I have to do it myself without doing anything to the house.
I'm also going to go around tonight with a bottle of wine to apologise, and give her my mobile number so she can just text me if it gets too much for her again (I'm think she's in the middle of some kind of nervous breakdown - I can sometimes hear her sobbing and sort of scratching at something, and she also drops a lot of plates - which is relevant because when you're already mad, even tiny things are going to make you madder).
Please note that I don’t play my music above what I would call a very reasonable level. Honestly, I hate having it up loud, and one could very easily have a normal conversation if one was sitting directly in front of my setup. What do?
So my housemate has moved out and I’ve taken his room upstairs in our two-storey townhouse. It’s a good room, very spacious, and with plenty of power outlets (a rarity on the Brisbane rental market), so I said to myself “Huh, might as well put my home theatre setup in here” (TV, 5.1 sound, Xbox, etc.). So I did and I was listening to some Beatles whilst I pottered about, and it was at what I thought was a very reasonable level (as in, I could hear it from the lounge room adjoining the bedroom but not really from anywhere else in the house), but within a few minutes my next door neighbour was banging on the door demanding I turn it down. I complied, even though it was only about 5 o’clock in the afternoon, but I was pretty pissed off about it because she has a crap car and doesn’t know how to drive so her brakes are squealing for about 45 minutes every morning and evening as she figures out how to use the driveway.
Anyway, I understand how annoying noise can be and I appreciate that it probably upset her (she’s entitled to quiet enjoyment of her home, after all). This is a block of five townhouses, only a few years old, but it appears no consideration was given by the builders to the fact that noise travels and that two plaster walls and wooden floorboards are basically only conduits for sound. I don’t want to be kicking back and have her bashing on the door again, since we’ve all got to get along. And my guess is it’s the subwoofer (which sits directly on the floor) that is the chief point of concern.
So, what are some cheap and easy ways to stop people from complaining about noise? Should I put the subwoofer on a stand of some kind? A big bookshelf is going against the wall most directly attached to her, which should suck up some of the sound, but it probably won’t be enough. I can't drill holes in the wall or pump foam anywhere - I basically have to use what I've got, or what can be gotten cheaply, and I have to do it myself without doing anything to the house.
I'm also going to go around tonight with a bottle of wine to apologise, and give her my mobile number so she can just text me if it gets too much for her again (I'm think she's in the middle of some kind of nervous breakdown - I can sometimes hear her sobbing and sort of scratching at something, and she also drops a lot of plates - which is relevant because when you're already mad, even tiny things are going to make you madder).
Please note that I don’t play my music above what I would call a very reasonable level. Honestly, I hate having it up loud, and one could very easily have a normal conversation if one was sitting directly in front of my setup. What do?
The short answer is that most modern construction the world over is renowned for transmitting noises because most modern construction is done in a manner such that costs are reduced. Inexpensive building materials, though durable, nonetheless do not swallow sounds as do older building materials like brick.
Therefore, I don't really think there is a practical way to address your concerns.
posted by dfriedman at 4:01 PM on September 27, 2009
Therefore, I don't really think there is a practical way to address your concerns.
posted by dfriedman at 4:01 PM on September 27, 2009
I would tell her that you're planning on making some changes to the room to help the noise problem, put in the bookcases, and then, before testing it out, ask if you can schedule a visit where you turn on the stereo at the level you feel you're going to want to use, and see how it sounds on her side.
I think that would help a few things:
You would know whether further action is needed, and have some idea what (if you're only hearing bass you'd want to do something different if you hear more of the sound).
It would reassure her that you are really trying to avoid bothering her.
If she is not satisfied with the results, you'd at least know if things are still quite loud on her side of the wall, or if she's just being super-sensitive and complainey.
posted by aubilenon at 4:18 PM on September 27, 2009
I think that would help a few things:
You would know whether further action is needed, and have some idea what (if you're only hearing bass you'd want to do something different if you hear more of the sound).
It would reassure her that you are really trying to avoid bothering her.
If she is not satisfied with the results, you'd at least know if things are still quite loud on her side of the wall, or if she's just being super-sensitive and complainey.
posted by aubilenon at 4:18 PM on September 27, 2009
Best answer: Should I put the subwoofer on a stand of some kind?
Yes! Get all speakers off the floor and away from the walls. This will make a big difference.
posted by drjimmy11 at 4:34 PM on September 27, 2009 [1 favorite]
Yes! Get all speakers off the floor and away from the walls. This will make a big difference.
posted by drjimmy11 at 4:34 PM on September 27, 2009 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I've been on both sides of this problem. It's good that you're sensitive to her needing quiet, but the tricky part is finding a level that's acceptable to you both. And if she is, as you suspect, going through a tough emotional time that just may not be possible right now - she may have more on her plate than would allow her to do this. So be prepared to wait a bit for the negotiation phase. But do make amends if you're inclined and you think it warranted. You can get a feel at the same time as to whether negotiation would be doable now. And I wouldn't bring up the noisy parking thing unless it was a separate issue, once this is resolved.
Even among people who aren't under stress there are a select few for whom any noise level will be unacceptable. If that's the case I've found the best solution is either:
a) Set your lowest acceptable volume; when they complain tell them you've accommodated as much as you can;
- or if this causes too much friction/hassle -
b) get a good set of wireless headphones.
Good luck with it.
posted by Hardcore Poser at 4:44 PM on September 27, 2009
Even among people who aren't under stress there are a select few for whom any noise level will be unacceptable. If that's the case I've found the best solution is either:
a) Set your lowest acceptable volume; when they complain tell them you've accommodated as much as you can;
- or if this causes too much friction/hassle -
b) get a good set of wireless headphones.
Good luck with it.
posted by Hardcore Poser at 4:44 PM on September 27, 2009
Would putting a rug or foam padding behind the bookcase further deaden sound without being hideous?
posted by runningwithscissors at 4:49 PM on September 27, 2009
posted by runningwithscissors at 4:49 PM on September 27, 2009
As above, move speakers away from floors and walls. Use headphones when possible. Effective soundproofing is neither cheap nor or easy.
posted by jon1270 at 4:52 PM on September 27, 2009
posted by jon1270 at 4:52 PM on September 27, 2009
If you can hear her sobbing and scratching at things, then neither of you is the problem- it is the construction. Move the speakers away from the walls, use some of the other suggestions made here, and perhaps invite her over to share that bottle of wine then examine how loud the music on your side of the house transmits to her side of the house.
Exchange phone numbers and commiserate about the shoddy construction, plan to call each other whenever the noise is aggravating but otherwise live with it. Perhaps make a friend at a time in her life when she sounds like she could use it...
posted by arnicae at 4:53 PM on September 27, 2009
Exchange phone numbers and commiserate about the shoddy construction, plan to call each other whenever the noise is aggravating but otherwise live with it. Perhaps make a friend at a time in her life when she sounds like she could use it...
posted by arnicae at 4:53 PM on September 27, 2009
Response by poster: Some good advice here already guys, thank you very much.
Would putting a rug or foam padding behind the bookcase further deaden sound without being hideous?
I actually have a spare queen-sized sheet of egg carton foam that could probably fit in there quite nicely. I might give that a whirl once I've got the bookcase upstairs.
posted by turgid dahlia at 5:01 PM on September 27, 2009
Would putting a rug or foam padding behind the bookcase further deaden sound without being hideous?
I actually have a spare queen-sized sheet of egg carton foam that could probably fit in there quite nicely. I might give that a whirl once I've got the bookcase upstairs.
posted by turgid dahlia at 5:01 PM on September 27, 2009
There are a variety of ways of dealing with this, but one thing is going to be true no matter what: you need to forget about the subwoofer. They are irresponsible to use where there are rental-style shared walls.
If you owned your place you could mediate this via construction, but in a rental it's just plain mean. You will not be able to attentuate the bass from a subwoofer without structural decoupling, so unless you're willing to construct a room within that room, your neighbor is always going to have something to complain about. If you can hear your stereo from the next room, so can they. The doors in your apartment make almost no difference when it comes to the subwoofer.
posted by rhizome at 5:03 PM on September 27, 2009 [4 favorites]
If you owned your place you could mediate this via construction, but in a rental it's just plain mean. You will not be able to attentuate the bass from a subwoofer without structural decoupling, so unless you're willing to construct a room within that room, your neighbor is always going to have something to complain about. If you can hear your stereo from the next room, so can they. The doors in your apartment make almost no difference when it comes to the subwoofer.
posted by rhizome at 5:03 PM on September 27, 2009 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: ...attentuate the bass from a subwoofer without structural decoupling...
The-...how's that?
posted by turgid dahlia at 5:08 PM on September 27, 2009
The-...how's that?
posted by turgid dahlia at 5:08 PM on September 27, 2009
Best answer: You aren't going to be able to prevent the bass from traveling into their space without disconnecting the stuff that the subwoofer is touching from the floors and walls connected to their space. This can be done by building a room within a room, with rubber (or rubber-like) isolators throughout to absorb the soundwaves before they get to the building's actual floor and walls
posted by rhizome at 5:16 PM on September 27, 2009
posted by rhizome at 5:16 PM on September 27, 2009
Response by poster: So, let's say I find a subwoofer riser of some description (or just set one up myself - perhaps some styrofoam packaging?) and then move the sub to the corner of my room farthest away from the neighbour, as well as keeping it a fair distance from the wall, could this be a workable strategy?
posted by turgid dahlia at 5:47 PM on September 27, 2009
posted by turgid dahlia at 5:47 PM on September 27, 2009
Best answer: It sounds like you're probably right that the subwoofer is likely the big issue here.
The problem with a 'home theatre setup' is that if you're expecting to watch Michael Bay movies or play Halo with that immersive, theatre-style sound, it's likely to lean on the bass a fair bit - see Wikipedia on the LFE channel in Dolby Surround Sound, particularly this - "These sound effects are at the threshold of human hearing, so it takes a tremendous amount of amplification for the human ear to hear them." If your Beatles music is already a problem, any movie with explosions is going to be much worse.
And a big part of why subwoofers are used in the way they are is that the frequencies involved a) don't localize much and b) travel through (and are conducted by) hard surfaces well. Both of these properties are due to the sizable physical wavelength of such tones - b) meaning in part that if you put a sub on the floor or against the wall it will vibrate the floor/wall as well, hence drjimmy11's comment. The problem is that there's not really a good way to get the 'subwoofer effect' without it traveling short of what rhizome's talking about - if you put the subwoofer on a stand you diminish the vibration of the floor, but the corresponding loss of volume will mean you likely have to turn it up to compensate, and you're back in a similar position. Subs also lose a lot of their punch when you do this - I did a production of Altar Boyz where we transferred from a theatre with subs on the floor against the back wall to one where they were suspended from the ceiling, and most of the bass drum reinforcement went away.
So the question is whether you can live without most of the subwoofer, because if you hear it, she probably will too. A side note, and one I'm unsure about given my experience is with theatre rather than surround: it would not surprise me if just removing the subwoofer from the system is going to leave you with very little low bass, as the system crossover may be keeping most of the low end out of the non-subwoofer speakers and they may not be built to reproduce those frequencies anyway.
Beyond that, dealing with the rest of the spectrum is comparatively easy: Make sure the speakers aren't pointed at the shared wall, keep them away from walls and floor to reduce sympathetic vibration, and if neccessary, pad the space.
Cheap acoustical deadening I've used in a theatrical context: There's egg-carton foam, as previously mentioned, though a lot of soft foam will have some kind of deadening effect. Carpet padding (felt, say) or thick carpet, or blankets. It's just a question of something that will eat vibration. Breaking up the surface may also help - that is, the bookcase or other large obstacles in front of the wall will keep it from being such an efficient conductor. Part of why egg-crate foam works well, IIRC, is that it's not just the softness, it's the texture.
I should note that most of this is coming from time spent working with audio in a theatre and musical theatre setting - for instance, the orchestra pit I had to muffle last month - so your mileage at home may vary, but I believe the principles are sound.
And on preview, it occurs to me that it's also worth asking if there's shared air ducts or anything, in which case you may be completely screwed no matter how much padding you put up.
posted by rhymeswithaj at 6:54 PM on September 27, 2009
The problem with a 'home theatre setup' is that if you're expecting to watch Michael Bay movies or play Halo with that immersive, theatre-style sound, it's likely to lean on the bass a fair bit - see Wikipedia on the LFE channel in Dolby Surround Sound, particularly this - "These sound effects are at the threshold of human hearing, so it takes a tremendous amount of amplification for the human ear to hear them." If your Beatles music is already a problem, any movie with explosions is going to be much worse.
And a big part of why subwoofers are used in the way they are is that the frequencies involved a) don't localize much and b) travel through (and are conducted by) hard surfaces well. Both of these properties are due to the sizable physical wavelength of such tones - b) meaning in part that if you put a sub on the floor or against the wall it will vibrate the floor/wall as well, hence drjimmy11's comment. The problem is that there's not really a good way to get the 'subwoofer effect' without it traveling short of what rhizome's talking about - if you put the subwoofer on a stand you diminish the vibration of the floor, but the corresponding loss of volume will mean you likely have to turn it up to compensate, and you're back in a similar position. Subs also lose a lot of their punch when you do this - I did a production of Altar Boyz where we transferred from a theatre with subs on the floor against the back wall to one where they were suspended from the ceiling, and most of the bass drum reinforcement went away.
So the question is whether you can live without most of the subwoofer, because if you hear it, she probably will too. A side note, and one I'm unsure about given my experience is with theatre rather than surround: it would not surprise me if just removing the subwoofer from the system is going to leave you with very little low bass, as the system crossover may be keeping most of the low end out of the non-subwoofer speakers and they may not be built to reproduce those frequencies anyway.
Beyond that, dealing with the rest of the spectrum is comparatively easy: Make sure the speakers aren't pointed at the shared wall, keep them away from walls and floor to reduce sympathetic vibration, and if neccessary, pad the space.
Cheap acoustical deadening I've used in a theatrical context: There's egg-carton foam, as previously mentioned, though a lot of soft foam will have some kind of deadening effect. Carpet padding (felt, say) or thick carpet, or blankets. It's just a question of something that will eat vibration. Breaking up the surface may also help - that is, the bookcase or other large obstacles in front of the wall will keep it from being such an efficient conductor. Part of why egg-crate foam works well, IIRC, is that it's not just the softness, it's the texture.
I should note that most of this is coming from time spent working with audio in a theatre and musical theatre setting - for instance, the orchestra pit I had to muffle last month - so your mileage at home may vary, but I believe the principles are sound.
And on preview, it occurs to me that it's also worth asking if there's shared air ducts or anything, in which case you may be completely screwed no matter how much padding you put up.
posted by rhymeswithaj at 6:54 PM on September 27, 2009
Having missed the latest response from the OP in composing the monster above (which turned out much longer than intended):
So, let's say I find a subwoofer riser of some description (or just set one up myself - perhaps some styrofoam packaging?) and then move the sub to the corner of my room farthest away from the neighbour, as well as keeping it a fair distance from the wall, could this be a workable strategy?
That will likely help, though sub risers (from the little I know about them) are primarily about reducing unwanted high-frequency resonance from adjoining surfaces rather than muffling low end, so while it'll help the floor, the waves themselves may still go through the wall. Some of this may depend on whether the cone in your subwoofer points down or sideways.
Styrofoam may not be a great bet for a riser as it's probably not soft enough, but a quick Googling turned up this post on building a DIY riser. Best of luck.
posted by rhymeswithaj at 7:09 PM on September 27, 2009
So, let's say I find a subwoofer riser of some description (or just set one up myself - perhaps some styrofoam packaging?) and then move the sub to the corner of my room farthest away from the neighbour, as well as keeping it a fair distance from the wall, could this be a workable strategy?
That will likely help, though sub risers (from the little I know about them) are primarily about reducing unwanted high-frequency resonance from adjoining surfaces rather than muffling low end, so while it'll help the floor, the waves themselves may still go through the wall. Some of this may depend on whether the cone in your subwoofer points down or sideways.
Styrofoam may not be a great bet for a riser as it's probably not soft enough, but a quick Googling turned up this post on building a DIY riser. Best of luck.
posted by rhymeswithaj at 7:09 PM on September 27, 2009
Best answer: The egg crate material will primarily make the space you are in less 'lively' which can be a good thing acoustically, but will do little to reduce transmitted sound. What reductions it does provide will be primarily in the high frequencies.
Sound in buildings is generally thought of as moving between spaces in three ways - structure born, transmitted and flanking. Flanking refers to sounds that move around obstacles on an air path (like the duct that is always available in a movie so you can hear the next unit upstairs). It doesn't sound like flanking noise is your problem.
Transmitted sounds are where you normally see sound ratings. To do web research you can look up STC. This is a standardized way to evaluate construction for improving sound deadening. What you'll quickly notice that systems to improve walls do it by adding mass and increasing thickness. A wall can only deaden a sound wave that has a length less than the wall's thickness so very low frequency sound is extremely difficult to control. Hanging a very heavy material on one side of the wall can potentially help.
Finally, sound that is in the structure itself will vibrate the structure and create sound waves on adjoining surfaces. Structure born sound is usually used to talk about the footfall problem in stacked units, but it could also apply to your subwoofer. Getting it off the floor will likely help, turning it down quite a bit will help more.
Bottom line is that as a renter your options are pretty limited. The best you can likely do is isolate all the speakers from the floor and absolutely line the shared wall with books (thick and heavy). All the highly effective solutions require construction expense and could also slightly diminish the room size by building the wall out thicker. Having said all that, I agree with folks that sound can be psychological as well. If you demonstrate an intent to manage it and work with your neighbor you are more likely to have a pleasant solution.
posted by meinvt at 8:24 PM on September 27, 2009 [1 favorite]
Sound in buildings is generally thought of as moving between spaces in three ways - structure born, transmitted and flanking. Flanking refers to sounds that move around obstacles on an air path (like the duct that is always available in a movie so you can hear the next unit upstairs). It doesn't sound like flanking noise is your problem.
Transmitted sounds are where you normally see sound ratings. To do web research you can look up STC. This is a standardized way to evaluate construction for improving sound deadening. What you'll quickly notice that systems to improve walls do it by adding mass and increasing thickness. A wall can only deaden a sound wave that has a length less than the wall's thickness so very low frequency sound is extremely difficult to control. Hanging a very heavy material on one side of the wall can potentially help.
Finally, sound that is in the structure itself will vibrate the structure and create sound waves on adjoining surfaces. Structure born sound is usually used to talk about the footfall problem in stacked units, but it could also apply to your subwoofer. Getting it off the floor will likely help, turning it down quite a bit will help more.
Bottom line is that as a renter your options are pretty limited. The best you can likely do is isolate all the speakers from the floor and absolutely line the shared wall with books (thick and heavy). All the highly effective solutions require construction expense and could also slightly diminish the room size by building the wall out thicker. Having said all that, I agree with folks that sound can be psychological as well. If you demonstrate an intent to manage it and work with your neighbor you are more likely to have a pleasant solution.
posted by meinvt at 8:24 PM on September 27, 2009 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: So, as a quick update, I hunted around town for solutions today with zero luck, so when I got home I moved the sub to the far side of the room (I guess about three feet from its initial location, as well as an extra few inches from the wall) and stuck it on a triple-folded high density rubber yoga mat and two styrofoam...packing...things. I'm listening to the first Interpol record (bass-heavy) and I've moved around the house trying to get a better idea of how the noise is moving through the structure. Standing directly beneath it, there is a significant difference between the sub being directly on the floor and being atop my ghoulish sound-damping contraption, with the latter being for the best.
Annoying thing is, standing directly outside my bedroom window I can barely hear any of it. Anyway, there's a bottle of good wine chilling in the fridge so when I hear her agonising approach up the driveway reach its terminus, I shall ambush her. Wish me luck!
posted by turgid dahlia at 12:57 AM on September 28, 2009
Annoying thing is, standing directly outside my bedroom window I can barely hear any of it. Anyway, there's a bottle of good wine chilling in the fridge so when I hear her agonising approach up the driveway reach its terminus, I shall ambush her. Wish me luck!
posted by turgid dahlia at 12:57 AM on September 28, 2009
This thread is closed to new comments.
1) someone moves
2) headphones
Best of luck! I've been on both sides.
posted by mrbarrett.com at 3:57 PM on September 27, 2009