Is there a regulation in Montreal setting a mimimum distance between bars?

September 27, 2009 8:17 AM

Is there a regulation in Montreal setting a mimimum distance between bars or restaurants?

I’m doing some research on how different cities regulate the density of bars in different areas. I’ve come across a couple of sources that seem to mention, in passing, that there are regulations in the city (maybe just specific areas, maybe city wide) that specify that bars must be at least 75 metres (or 100 metres, or 50 metres) apart from each other.

While the sources I came across were reasonably reliable (two articles from the Gazette, and one mention in a document on the City Hall site), they all provided very little information, just in passing, and were also around 10 years old.

I want to find out something more definitive and/or more recent and/or more informative.

Can anyone point me to information about this? I’m hoping for something like the text of a specific bylaw that states the regulation- that would be amazing. But less definitive stuff would be helpful too: a newspaper article that states plainly that such a regulation existss, or even a blog where someone gives some detail about it. I’ve put tons of time into trying to find something, but have been coming up blank.

Any help or suggestions would be very much appreciated.

(And – if anyone has information on similar regulations in Montreal – not specifically minimum-distance requirements, but general restrictions on where bars can be – that would be helpful, too… But the distance regulation is the main thing I’m trying to track down).

posted by ManInSuit to Law & Government (22 answers total)

When I was in Montreal I recall seeing multiple strip clubs, which serve booze, next to each other, on Rue St. Catherine.

If by "bar" you mean a place that serves booze, which a strip joint clearly is, then I don't think there is any such regulation in Montreal.

Unless the regulation in question makes a distinction between a bar and a strip club.
posted by dfriedman at 8:19 AM on September 27, 2009

I've definitely seen multiple bars (not just strip clubs) next to each other in Montreal, in a few locations.

So I don't think that exists (but could be wrong).
posted by Lemurrhea at 8:21 AM on September 27, 2009

Response by poster: drfriendman: Yeah - I lived in Montreal for a long time, and definitely saw bars side-by-side. But my experience with this stuff is that it's often hard to deduce what the law says from what you see on the streeet. It's possible, eg, that there is such a bylaw, but that you still see bars side-by-side, because the businesses existed before the law was passed and were grandfathered, or because they were able to apply for an exemption or any of a million other reasons.
posted by ManInSuit at 8:24 AM on September 27, 2009

Response by poster: And - to clarify: Here are some clips I found from different places:

"zoning regulations in Montreal permit one bar every 75 metres." - Montreal Gazette, July 2, 1998

There's also From an online guide to starting a bar (published by the city), with similar info. I'll dig it up in a sec...
posted by ManInSuit at 8:32 AM on September 27, 2009

Response by poster: (That city publication is proving harder to get than I thought, as it's a PDF, and in French...)
posted by ManInSuit at 8:44 AM on September 27, 2009

From what I understand there's a density rule that limits the number of liquor licenses sold per neighborhood, versus restaurant + liquor licenses. I think it is very neighbourhood specific (Compare Crescent to say St-Denis). Talk to the owners of Le Pistol, they've been dealing with this for ages, trying to go from food + liquor to proper bar.
posted by furtive at 8:44 AM on September 27, 2009

Response by poster: furtive - yeah, what I've read definitely suggests it's neighbourhood-specific, a kind of area-by-area zoning regulation. I'll try and look into Le Pistol
posted by ManInSuit at 8:47 AM on September 27, 2009

ManInSuit, if you link the pdf, I can translate it for you.
posted by jeather at 9:09 AM on September 27, 2009

Response by poster: jeather, the file is linked to here. It's a set of guidlines for people who want to open a bar. I'm not sure it has the info I need, but translation couldn't hurt.
posted by ManInSuit at 9:12 AM on September 27, 2009

Response by poster: (another maybe-relevant french-only page is here: http://www.mamrot.gouv.qc.ca/amenagement/outils/amen_outi_regl_contin.asp)
posted by ManInSuit at 9:15 AM on September 27, 2009

The PDF you linked is fairly general. Here's what looked like the most relevant paragraph:

Le Règlement d’urbanisme de l’arrondissement de
Ville-Marie (01-282) autorise les restaurants et les
débits de boissons alcooliques dans des secteurs
précis de la ville, à des conditions particulières. Par
exemple, un débit de boissons alcooliques ne peut être
situé à moins de 50 m d’un terrain occupé par une
école.
Il peut également exister des restrictions quant à
l’étage de l’établissement, sa superficie ou encore
quant à la distance à respecter entre certains types
d’établissement. Avant de signer un bail ou d’acheter
un immeuble, il est donc préférable de se présenter à
notre comptoir de renseignements pour vérifier si le
zonage permet d’exploiter un débit de boissons
alcooliques, un restaurant ou les deux usages, à
l’emplacement choisi.

Roughly: "There are certain conditions for places selling alcohol, which vary by neighbourhood. For example, somewhere selling alcohol must be at least 50m away from school property. There could also be rules regulating proximity to other types of businesses. Therefore, before buying property you should come down to our office to check out zoning for your area."

I think you need to go down to city hall and try and unearth some actual bylaws.
posted by iona at 9:37 AM on September 27, 2009

Le Règlement d’urbanisme de l’arrondissement de Ville-Marie (01-282) autorise les restaurants et les débits de boissons alcooliques dans des secteurs précis de la ville, à des conditions particulières. Par exemple, un débit de boissons alcooliques ne peut être situé à moins de 50 m d’un terrain occupé par une école.

So for Ville Marie you want to see section 01-282 which authorizes restaurants and liquor permits in precise sectors of the borough. For example, a liquor permit cannot be obtained within 50m of a school property.
posted by furtive at 9:40 AM on September 27, 2009

Response by poster: Furtive writes:
For Ville Marie you want to see section 01-282 which authorizes restaurants and liquor permits in precise sectors of the borough.


Iona writes: I think you need to go down to city hall and try and unearth some actual bylaws.

Thanks! These are helpful leads.

I'm in Toronto, so visiting Mtl City Hall is not an option for me. Does anyone know - is there a way to get to see these bylaws without going to Montreal City Hall? Are they online anywhere? Would there be copies at any library or gov't office in Toronto?
posted by ManInSuit at 9:46 AM on September 27, 2009

Search the bylaws for "alcholic". This looks rather complex, as each borough seems to have its own non trivial regulations.
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 9:59 AM on September 27, 2009

Response by poster: Ooh. I think I am finding my way. The bylaws are all online, and searchable. Thanks - these area really great leads from everyone.
posted by ManInSuit at 10:03 AM on September 27, 2009

Response by poster: (these "are" really great leads. Not there "area" really great leads. I guess I'm confused from switching back and forth between languages, and thinking a lot about areas)
posted by ManInSuit at 10:09 AM on September 27, 2009

I don't know that much about it but I know of some factors that go into things. I guess my only source is hearsay as well, so take this with a grain of salt.

--The license stays with the building, not the owner, as long as a new place opens up within 6 months of the previous bar's closing. This may confound some of the rules in that this acquired right may or may not be outside the letter of the regulations.

--It does go neighbourhood by neighbouhood at some level of granularity smaller than the borough. Mile End and the Plateau seem to be slightly different.

--The food-required-to-drink is now being enforced more than it once was (See Else's and Romolo, for example.

--There seems to be a limit on the number of bars one owner can operate in an area - This is why the bar at the Opus never got its license before it was finally sold to new owners.

I'd love it if you could follow up and tell us what you've learned...
posted by mikel at 11:05 AM on September 27, 2009

Response by poster: mikel - I'll post some info here once I have something like a final answer.
posted by ManInSuit at 11:52 AM on September 27, 2009

Response by poster: Ah! It turns out the zoing regulations are online, and they seem to spell out limits on distances, both between restaurants, and bars. They specify various types of zones, whose meaning is unclear to me (C.2a C.2B, that sort of thing). But, at least in Ville Marie and the Plateau (the areas I'm most interested in) there seem to be restrictions. The relevant bylaws for Ville Marie are 01-282 section 264 and 268. There's very similar stuff for the Plateau. You can get full texts of bylaws here. I'll post more soon, and continue to appreciate any other insights anyone can add. Thanks! The Green has been very helpful in figuring this out!!
posted by ManInSuit at 12:04 PM on September 27, 2009

Response by poster: It looks like, in Ville Marie and in the Plateau, there are regulations on density in zones C.2a, C.2b, C.2c, C.4a, C.4b, C.4c, C.5a, C.5b and C.5c.

Now if only I had an idea of what sorts of areas those zones cover. Does anyone have a sense of that? Is there anywhere I could find a map online that shows zoning areas in these boroughs?
posted by ManInSuit at 1:42 PM on September 27, 2009

I'm wondering if C2, C4 and C5 match the grid on this map.
posted by furtive at 5:48 PM on September 27, 2009

Response by poster: Thanks to all who helped. These leads were really useful! I've posted my findings as part of a survey of various cities, which can be found here (overview) and here (more detailed).
posted by ManInSuit at 8:28 AM on October 28, 2009