Car/Sound practical/meta (u choose) question.
September 18, 2009 9:15 AM Subscribe
What is this mechanical (automotive in this case) sound called? Does it have a name?
I'm trying to describe a sound that is happening in the suspension of my car...
The only way I can describe it is:
If you make a circle with thumb and pointer finger,
Place other pointer finger inside the circle,
Now (in 5 year old speak) "pretend your hands are metal"...
what's the sound it makes?
a warble, a clanking, a wobbling clanking, the sound of a worn/broken "widget"?
Thoughts... either on the sound's name or WTF is wrong with my front drive, "independent" strut, 2000 Ford Focus?
I'm trying to describe a sound that is happening in the suspension of my car...
The only way I can describe it is:
If you make a circle with thumb and pointer finger,
Place other pointer finger inside the circle,
Now (in 5 year old speak) "pretend your hands are metal"...
what's the sound it makes?
a warble, a clanking, a wobbling clanking, the sound of a worn/broken "widget"?
Thoughts... either on the sound's name or WTF is wrong with my front drive, "independent" strut, 2000 Ford Focus?
Best answer: Can you describe the motion you are thinking of?
Are you thinking of the CV joint? I describe a broken CV sound as sort of like marbles in coffee can that has been insulated. Sometimes they "clack" though.
posted by Big_B at 9:27 AM on September 18, 2009
Are you thinking of the CV joint? I describe a broken CV sound as sort of like marbles in coffee can that has been insulated. Sometimes they "clack" though.
posted by Big_B at 9:27 AM on September 18, 2009
It doesn't matter what the name of the sound is. You need to disassemble the offending parts in order to diagnose the problem correctly.
posted by torquemaniac at 9:28 AM on September 18, 2009
posted by torquemaniac at 9:28 AM on September 18, 2009
You can test to see if it's a CV joint by going to an empty parking lot and driving in circles. The farther you turn the steering wheel, the more pronounced the sound will be. It it's really bad you'll be able to feel it in the steering wheel as well.
posted by torquemaniac at 10:00 AM on September 18, 2009
posted by torquemaniac at 10:00 AM on September 18, 2009
Response by poster: cant' feel it in the steering wheel... well maybe a little bit at 60mph on highway during sweeping righthanders.
mostly just during "cruising" at 50-70mph an occasional "clacking" as though some generally unknown part needs to be replaced? or maybe a bushing around a part?
Would love to know what parts to disassemble in order to diagnose properly...
Hadn't thought of checking into a CV joint....
yeah, not a "screech" or "creak" or general friction of two parts rubbing. more of a slap/flop
part of what makes it difficult to diagnose is that the car *was* used on the track and has old worn out urethane bushings all over (including lower motor mount - actually not worn out, but urethane also)... so it's extra noisy and transmits road more into wheel.
more I think about it, more I think I should check into CV.
posted by Jiff_and_theChoosyMuthers at 10:25 AM on September 18, 2009
mostly just during "cruising" at 50-70mph an occasional "clacking" as though some generally unknown part needs to be replaced? or maybe a bushing around a part?
Would love to know what parts to disassemble in order to diagnose properly...
Hadn't thought of checking into a CV joint....
yeah, not a "screech" or "creak" or general friction of two parts rubbing. more of a slap/flop
part of what makes it difficult to diagnose is that the car *was* used on the track and has old worn out urethane bushings all over (including lower motor mount - actually not worn out, but urethane also)... so it's extra noisy and transmits road more into wheel.
more I think about it, more I think I should check into CV.
posted by Jiff_and_theChoosyMuthers at 10:25 AM on September 18, 2009
Response by poster: oh, yes... I did forget to mention the "motion" - that being "slapping" the index finger into the sides of the circle... back and forth, side to side.
posted by Jiff_and_theChoosyMuthers at 10:29 AM on September 18, 2009
posted by Jiff_and_theChoosyMuthers at 10:29 AM on September 18, 2009
Best answer: Suspension bushings are very likely. Polyurethane bushings can "cup" so that the metal inserts flop around and could cause a slap/flop sound. As could a bad ball joint, but you'd most likely feel that.
Does it have a sway bar? The links on that could be bad.
Constant warbling/grinding/whatever noises are a CV if it's during cornering, or a wheel bearing or an engine/ancillary component (bad bearings on an alternator, loose pulley, etc).
What speed does it show up? Do bumps upset it?
posted by paanta at 10:44 AM on September 18, 2009
Does it have a sway bar? The links on that could be bad.
Constant warbling/grinding/whatever noises are a CV if it's during cornering, or a wheel bearing or an engine/ancillary component (bad bearings on an alternator, loose pulley, etc).
What speed does it show up? Do bumps upset it?
posted by paanta at 10:44 AM on September 18, 2009
Urethane bushings? Ouch. Transmitting the energy the bushings are supposed to absorb to parts that weren't designed to be abused like this. All bets are off if it's a former track car. You're probably looking at a total front end rebuild which will likely cost more than the car is worth (which isn't much). Selling it will probably be your best bet.
posted by torquemaniac at 10:44 AM on September 18, 2009
posted by torquemaniac at 10:44 AM on September 18, 2009
There's a good chance you'll be able to spot it if you jack it up and just shake the hell out of the wheel.
posted by paanta at 10:45 AM on September 18, 2009
posted by paanta at 10:45 AM on September 18, 2009
Please please please... entertain me this weekend by calling Car Talk. Be prepared to make the sound on National Public Radio... even though breaks fail and guardrails uproot themselves in mutual protest when someone says that...
posted by Nanukthedog at 10:48 AM on September 18, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by Nanukthedog at 10:48 AM on September 18, 2009 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: I'll try the "jack and shake" method.
I know it's not worth a nickel... it's a money pit for me that I'm not yet willing to give up. (I used to have the disposable income that racing required... and still hold out hope to be able to afford turning this beast back into a trailered racer... but for now, I'm broke and eeking along with my old beater).
yeah, the urethane bushings are pretty much "required" for the track, as the compliant rubber OEM ones suck on the track.
just replaced a dead alternator... don't think it's in the ancillary stuff.
think it's in suspension, now that I visualize how I hear it... the sound probably is transmitted through s.wheel into bone... vibrations through chassis... definitely in suspension/drivetrain.
there seems to be another slightly different, less alarming noise that goes with the bumps... also less noisy... (not the creeking of urethane)... constant warble/slapping is mostly worrying.
yes it has the factory front lower bar (the ZTS came with a sufficient front bar for racing).
I don't know what a bad ball joint would feel like, but the diagram of that certainly fits with my mental image of the sound.
Could be the wheel bearing... the early foci had/has problems there.
I'll just have to dig into the bearing, CV, axle replacement direction.
posted by Jiff_and_theChoosyMuthers at 10:56 AM on September 18, 2009
I know it's not worth a nickel... it's a money pit for me that I'm not yet willing to give up. (I used to have the disposable income that racing required... and still hold out hope to be able to afford turning this beast back into a trailered racer... but for now, I'm broke and eeking along with my old beater).
yeah, the urethane bushings are pretty much "required" for the track, as the compliant rubber OEM ones suck on the track.
just replaced a dead alternator... don't think it's in the ancillary stuff.
think it's in suspension, now that I visualize how I hear it... the sound probably is transmitted through s.wheel into bone... vibrations through chassis... definitely in suspension/drivetrain.
there seems to be another slightly different, less alarming noise that goes with the bumps... also less noisy... (not the creeking of urethane)... constant warble/slapping is mostly worrying.
yes it has the factory front lower bar (the ZTS came with a sufficient front bar for racing).
I don't know what a bad ball joint would feel like, but the diagram of that certainly fits with my mental image of the sound.
Could be the wheel bearing... the early foci had/has problems there.
I'll just have to dig into the bearing, CV, axle replacement direction.
posted by Jiff_and_theChoosyMuthers at 10:56 AM on September 18, 2009
Best answer: An easy check:
With the wheel off the ground, grip the tire at 9 and 3 o-clock. Shake the wheel and, if the sound is reproduced, a bad inner or outer tie rod is the likely offender.
Shaking at 12 and 6 will reveal a bad ball joint.
If the clatter is reproduced at all clock positions, a wheel bearing is a likely offender. If the wheel makes a growling or crunching noise when you spin it, it's almost certainly a wheel bearing.
To check the axle, grip the axle shaft and shake it radially and laterally. If there's a lot of radial play, then the joints are wearing and causing your clatter. An outer joint will click while you're doing figure 8s in a parking lot, but an inner joint can cause a full-car vibration and clatter when you're acclerating, especially at highway speeds.
Although it's harder to detect via the shake-test, a lower control arm bushing could cause this noise. If the insulating bushing is worn, the control arm will clatter against its mounting point.
posted by Jon-o at 11:41 AM on September 18, 2009 [3 favorites]
With the wheel off the ground, grip the tire at 9 and 3 o-clock. Shake the wheel and, if the sound is reproduced, a bad inner or outer tie rod is the likely offender.
Shaking at 12 and 6 will reveal a bad ball joint.
If the clatter is reproduced at all clock positions, a wheel bearing is a likely offender. If the wheel makes a growling or crunching noise when you spin it, it's almost certainly a wheel bearing.
To check the axle, grip the axle shaft and shake it radially and laterally. If there's a lot of radial play, then the joints are wearing and causing your clatter. An outer joint will click while you're doing figure 8s in a parking lot, but an inner joint can cause a full-car vibration and clatter when you're acclerating, especially at highway speeds.
Although it's harder to detect via the shake-test, a lower control arm bushing could cause this noise. If the insulating bushing is worn, the control arm will clatter against its mounting point.
posted by Jon-o at 11:41 AM on September 18, 2009 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: thank you all for helping me put off the inevitable trip to the dogpound (Dealership) to put down (trade in) my old dog.
posted by Jiff_and_theChoosyMuthers at 11:45 AM on September 18, 2009
posted by Jiff_and_theChoosyMuthers at 11:45 AM on September 18, 2009
Just remember that once you fix this problem, others will surely pop up. Basically, you're throwing good money after bad.
posted by torquemaniac at 1:18 PM on September 18, 2009
posted by torquemaniac at 1:18 PM on September 18, 2009
torquemaniac writes "Urethane bushings? Ouch. Transmitting the energy the bushings are supposed to absorb to parts that weren't designed to be abused like this."
FYI: Urethane doesn't automatically mean hard, it is available in all sorts of durometers some of which mimic OEM rubber compliance.
posted by Mitheral at 6:36 PM on September 18, 2009
FYI: Urethane doesn't automatically mean hard, it is available in all sorts of durometers some of which mimic OEM rubber compliance.
posted by Mitheral at 6:36 PM on September 18, 2009
Just remember that once you fix this problem, others will surely pop up. Basically, you're throwing good money after bad.
Dude, it's not like his car is German and he needs to flee from the huge repair costs he's about to incur. A Focus is a pretty cheap and reliable little car and, unless it has more than 170,000 miles on it, I'd say it has some life left in it yet. A simple suspension repair is a small price to pay for keeping this car on the road.
If his question was, "My car shifts gears as smoothly as a grand piano falling down the stairs. What should I do?" That'd be a different story. But suspension is an easy nuts an bolts repair. Throwing a little good money after bad is always cheaper than a car payment.
posted by Jon-o at 8:14 PM on September 18, 2009
Dude, it's not like his car is German and he needs to flee from the huge repair costs he's about to incur. A Focus is a pretty cheap and reliable little car and, unless it has more than 170,000 miles on it, I'd say it has some life left in it yet. A simple suspension repair is a small price to pay for keeping this car on the road.
If his question was, "My car shifts gears as smoothly as a grand piano falling down the stairs. What should I do?" That'd be a different story. But suspension is an easy nuts an bolts repair. Throwing a little good money after bad is always cheaper than a car payment.
posted by Jon-o at 8:14 PM on September 18, 2009
Response by poster: Urethane in this application does mean less compliance... and harder... squeakier... I dunno if I've ever heard of urethane "aftermarket" kits being sold for racing that mimic OEM performance? Dunno what the point would be?
Also... thx Jon-o for making me feel better about *admittedly* wasting money on my car (which is why I don't know why I needed to be "reminded" that I'm throwing good money after bad - see my comments upthread).
FYI... if you've read this far downthread... you know the issues are dead... so as a wrap up on the car:
The focus is a great little econo-box for racing... a reliable platform with pretty simple systems and some minor improvements in rear suspension bringing center of gravity slightly lower ("control blade" rear suspension)... and the front has a more friendly scrub radius (closer to positive than most FWD cars, providing better stability among other things) with not too crazy of an offset for the wheels... unfortunately I have to go up to 16" rims to squeeze better brake kits inside the rims (wish I could do some of the crazy older disc setups from minis inside a 13" rim).
Anyway... I haven't done much of the work on my car myself, but as my budget has gotten tighter in recent years, I'm putting my tools (previously used for renovations) to use on my car.
Unfortunately for me, many of the choices that I made while on prior trajectory toward making this thing a dedicated track toy didn't serve me well when I had to strip out the roll-bar and stick kid seats in the back again! Ceramic clutch ate the crap out of the lightened aluminum flywheel during stop and go traffic on the beltway, urethane doesn't weather so well through seasons, tires... oh tires... I wish I didn't have racing rubber rotting in my attic, broken spring led to going back to OEM springs... which led to increased pressure on rear lower control arms (as I am/was still using the giant 25mm rear anti-swaybar) and snapped the crappy LCA on one side... nice that Ford has since improved the design slightly....
Anyway... you get the idea... I know mostly what I'm in for here... I just keep crossing my fingers that I can dig my way out of my finances before the car gets into an accident that bends the frame, before the engine has any issues (still very very low mileage, as I used to drive my motorcycle mostly for years).
Thanks again... I'll be looking for issues up front... next a refresh on the urethane, new lowering springs & dampers, brake upgrade to the SVT setup, eventual replacement of the rear suspension with Ford Racing setup... Aiming for Spec Focus setup by 2011. Take care all.
posted by Jiff_and_theChoosyMuthers at 9:08 PM on September 18, 2009
Also... thx Jon-o for making me feel better about *admittedly* wasting money on my car (which is why I don't know why I needed to be "reminded" that I'm throwing good money after bad - see my comments upthread).
FYI... if you've read this far downthread... you know the issues are dead... so as a wrap up on the car:
The focus is a great little econo-box for racing... a reliable platform with pretty simple systems and some minor improvements in rear suspension bringing center of gravity slightly lower ("control blade" rear suspension)... and the front has a more friendly scrub radius (closer to positive than most FWD cars, providing better stability among other things) with not too crazy of an offset for the wheels... unfortunately I have to go up to 16" rims to squeeze better brake kits inside the rims (wish I could do some of the crazy older disc setups from minis inside a 13" rim).
Anyway... I haven't done much of the work on my car myself, but as my budget has gotten tighter in recent years, I'm putting my tools (previously used for renovations) to use on my car.
Unfortunately for me, many of the choices that I made while on prior trajectory toward making this thing a dedicated track toy didn't serve me well when I had to strip out the roll-bar and stick kid seats in the back again! Ceramic clutch ate the crap out of the lightened aluminum flywheel during stop and go traffic on the beltway, urethane doesn't weather so well through seasons, tires... oh tires... I wish I didn't have racing rubber rotting in my attic, broken spring led to going back to OEM springs... which led to increased pressure on rear lower control arms (as I am/was still using the giant 25mm rear anti-swaybar) and snapped the crappy LCA on one side... nice that Ford has since improved the design slightly....
Anyway... you get the idea... I know mostly what I'm in for here... I just keep crossing my fingers that I can dig my way out of my finances before the car gets into an accident that bends the frame, before the engine has any issues (still very very low mileage, as I used to drive my motorcycle mostly for years).
Thanks again... I'll be looking for issues up front... next a refresh on the urethane, new lowering springs & dampers, brake upgrade to the SVT setup, eventual replacement of the rear suspension with Ford Racing setup... Aiming for Spec Focus setup by 2011. Take care all.
posted by Jiff_and_theChoosyMuthers at 9:08 PM on September 18, 2009
Sounds cool. I worked at a road course in college, and although I have a 68 mustang that is more of a fun car, I'd love to get on that track in a prepped car someday. Something as cheap as a Focus would work well.
As for your original question, I think you are probably looking at some worn component like a ball joint rather than a CV after reading the rest of the thread.
Good luck!
posted by Big_B at 7:31 AM on September 19, 2009
As for your original question, I think you are probably looking at some worn component like a ball joint rather than a CV after reading the rest of the thread.
Good luck!
posted by Big_B at 7:31 AM on September 19, 2009
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by idiopath at 9:20 AM on September 18, 2009