Bedeute es mir bitte

September 9, 2009 2:53 AM

Need help translating/interpreting Wittgenstein's "Bei der magischen Heilung einer Krankheit bedeutet man ihr, sie möge den Patienten verlassen", esp. the use of bedeuten with a dative object.

It comes from his Remarks on Frazer's Golden Bough, on p. 128 of Philosophical Occasions and p. 35 of the Suhrkamp Votrag über Ethik.

I've been trying to get a handle on this sentence by translating it into English but any paraphrase or explanation in either English or German might help me. My problem is that I don't really know what bedeuten could mean with a dative object. I'd be interested also in knowing whether Wittgenstein made this up or it's an accepted use.

The translation offered in Philosophical Occasions is "With the magical healing of an illness, one directs the illness to leave the patient", and I don't see how this could be right.

My intuitive sense would be something like "one signifies to it that it leave the patient", but I'm not sure if that makes any sense either.

The context:

Die Magie in "Alice in Wonderland" beim Trocknen durch Vorlesen des Trockensten was es gibt.
Bei der magischen Heilung einer Krankheit bedeutet man ihr, sie möge den Patient verlassen.
Man möchte nach der Beschreibung so einer magischen Kur immer sagen: Wenn das die Krankheit nicht versteht, so weiß ich nicht, wie man es ihr sagen soll.

Thank you for any help.

posted by creasy boy to Writing & Language (11 answers total)

Best answer: To my ear/eye the Philosophical Occasions translation is very apt. According to the Duden the verb bedeuten stems from Middle High German bediuten, which means to indicate, suggest or to hint. In any case it's definitely an archaism.
posted by Glow Bucket at 3:03 AM on September 9, 2009

"With the magical healing of an illness, one directs the illness to leave the patient", and I don't see how this could be right.

Why not? Never tried to practice any instant magic yourself? Rain, rain, go away, I heard myself muttering earlier this morning.

The translation looks correct to me.
posted by ijsbrand at 3:08 AM on September 9, 2009

Best answer: Bedeuten here means "give to understand", as in "They gave me to understand never to come back". The translation is correct, and does make sense in the context.
posted by dhoe at 3:28 AM on September 9, 2009

Response by poster: I'm not sure why I was unhappy with "direct". Quite possibly I'm just making too much out of this. The suggestion "give to understand" I find very helpful, and I was already thinking along lines of "indicate, suggest or hint", and to me "direct" is a different and more specific speech act than any of these and thus strikes me as misleading. Isn't directing someone to do something different from giving them to understand something? If "direct" is similar to "command" it suggests a more specific attitude than "suggest" or "give to understand".

Anyway. Thanks for the suggestions so far. I went into this thinking I was confused by his emphasis on bedeuten, but I think now I'm at least equally confused by the emphasis he gives this thought in the larger context. I don't know. But I appreciate the input so far.
posted by creasy boy at 3:47 AM on September 9, 2009

Best answer: I means "to tell", in the sense of "to command" or "to order". It's a bit old-fashioned.
posted by The Toad at 4:46 AM on September 9, 2009

Best answer: From the Grimm dictionary:

4) e i n e n bedeuten, anweisen, zurechtweisen, belehren, warnen: sie schickte sogleich ihre vertraute an Aruja ab, um ihr den anschlag, der gegen sie im werke sei, zu entdecken und sie zu bedeuten, dasz sie noch in dieser nacht aus Dehly entfliehen müsse. WIELAND 8, 451; sie machten einen spaziergang durch äcker, wiesen und einige baumgärten. Therese bedeutete den verwalter in allem, sie konnte ihm von jeder kleinigkeit rechenschaft geben. GÖTHE 20, 42; auf diese erklärung entwarf der abbé sogleich seinen plan. so bedeutete er auch den markese. 20, 285; als dieser bedeutete, sie möchten nun zu fusze sich dem thore nähern. 21, 174; fragte, was es gebe? sie bedeutete ihn, ich stand auf. 25, 355; die sogenannte entenmuschel erinnert uns gleich an eine bivalve. allein schnell werden wir bedeutet, hier sei von einer mehrheit die rede. 55, 327; wenn sie doch gelegentlich Herdern bedeuten wollten, dasz er noch keine horenstücke haben kann. SCHILLER an Göthe 220; seine wächter bedeuteten ihn, er sollte sich auf die nahen qualen rüsten. KLINGER 4, 274;

herzlieber gmahl, lasz dich bedeuten.
  AYRER 369a;

so laszt euch bedeuten, herr richter. GÖTHE 14, 300; er läszt sich nicht bedeuten, versteht die weisung nicht.
posted by languagehat at 8:13 AM on September 9, 2009 [1 favorite]

"andeuten" would be the equivalent to "give to understand", it's more indirect, hinting. "bedeuten" as used here is more direct (and no longer used in this way, "bedeuten" today is restricted to "to mean").
posted by meijusa at 10:52 AM on September 9, 2009

Best answer: He's using the archaism because he's writing about archaism. I would translate it as "one bids the illness to leave the patient" to preserve the connotation of spell-casting as described in esoteric texts and fairy tales.
posted by Sidhedevil at 11:15 AM on September 9, 2009

Look, Creasy Boy, all you have to do is ask me directly ...
posted by wittgenstein at 6:31 PM on September 9, 2009 [2 favorites]

Response by poster: You always show up too late in these threads. Besides, I'm not convinced you're the best interpreter of your own work.
posted by creasy boy at 4:05 AM on September 10, 2009 [2 favorites]

Response by poster: Awesome, thanks everyone for your help.
posted by creasy boy at 4:06 AM on September 10, 2009