I want to have my cake and eat it, too!
July 30, 2009 1:20 PM Subscribe
Posting for a friend: Is it possible to go to law school, find the "one", and have a family, or do I just have to pick one?
I am posting for a friend. She is 38, has a degree in English, and really wants to go to law school. She also would like to be married and have a family. I encouraged her to sign up for Eharmony, and she has had some contacts. A lot of them seem to feel, though, that one cannot attend law school and have a family or a relationship at the same time. She is disheartened by this, and is resigning herself to "spinsterdom". I think that it's ridiculous.
So any thoughts, ideas, input? Personal experience stories welcome. If you need more info, I can provide what I know.
Thanks!
I am posting for a friend. She is 38, has a degree in English, and really wants to go to law school. She also would like to be married and have a family. I encouraged her to sign up for Eharmony, and she has had some contacts. A lot of them seem to feel, though, that one cannot attend law school and have a family or a relationship at the same time. She is disheartened by this, and is resigning herself to "spinsterdom". I think that it's ridiculous.
So any thoughts, ideas, input? Personal experience stories welcome. If you need more info, I can provide what I know.
Thanks!
Speaking only as someone who has seen people go through law school - it can be really really tough on relationships because, well, it's a tough program that demands a lot of study.
Does she know what kind of law she wants to practice afterward? Law school debt and be prohibitive, and unless you take an alternative path (as some of my friends have) of going into government service, the hours are likely to be absolutely insane for the first few years in whatever job she takes. That being said - this is why a few lawyers I know deliberately avoided the high-paying corporate careers for something that would allow them to have family time.
Being pregnant and trying to go through law school? Even harder. But if that's what she wants, it can be done.
posted by canine epigram at 1:28 PM on July 30, 2009
Does she know what kind of law she wants to practice afterward? Law school debt and be prohibitive, and unless you take an alternative path (as some of my friends have) of going into government service, the hours are likely to be absolutely insane for the first few years in whatever job she takes. That being said - this is why a few lawyers I know deliberately avoided the high-paying corporate careers for something that would allow them to have family time.
Being pregnant and trying to go through law school? Even harder. But if that's what she wants, it can be done.
posted by canine epigram at 1:28 PM on July 30, 2009
Of course it's possible. In fact, off the top of my head I can think of six couples that met in my law school class - my 1L section in fact - meaning I met all twelve of them and they met each other in the first week of law school - and are now married, five of them have babies.
posted by Pax at 1:28 PM on July 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by Pax at 1:28 PM on July 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
Relationship + school is workable; preferable to get into the relationship first, because falling in love is a mighty distraction from the study of law.
No experience having kids during law school; think it would work out with a live-in grandma or other reliable help at hand.
Law school can wait but the window on her reproductive years is closing. I'd focus on kids first. If she gets to be of an age when she'd be likely having children via adoption, that's more compatible with school, I'd say; fewer unknowns about how her physical ability to continue with school might be affected, and less likely to involve staying up nights with a newborn.
posted by lakeroon at 1:29 PM on July 30, 2009
No experience having kids during law school; think it would work out with a live-in grandma or other reliable help at hand.
Law school can wait but the window on her reproductive years is closing. I'd focus on kids first. If she gets to be of an age when she'd be likely having children via adoption, that's more compatible with school, I'd say; fewer unknowns about how her physical ability to continue with school might be affected, and less likely to involve staying up nights with a newborn.
posted by lakeroon at 1:29 PM on July 30, 2009
Why is she paying attention to the opinions of strangers on eHarmony?
Of course it's possible to go to law school while working on finding a relationship that eventually leads to marriage and children; there are women who balance education, careers, and families every day. Can it be difficult? Sure. Is it impossible? Only if she decides not to try.
By the way, there are men out there who would welcome being in a relationship with a woman with professional and personal goals like your friends. She may not have found them on eHarmony, but they most certainly do exist.
posted by scody at 1:29 PM on July 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
Of course it's possible to go to law school while working on finding a relationship that eventually leads to marriage and children; there are women who balance education, careers, and families every day. Can it be difficult? Sure. Is it impossible? Only if she decides not to try.
By the way, there are men out there who would welcome being in a relationship with a woman with professional and personal goals like your friends. She may not have found them on eHarmony, but they most certainly do exist.
posted by scody at 1:29 PM on July 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
I went to a law school with less than 200 people per class. I knew at least two couples in which both people were from my class, and met each other and got together in the first year of law school. Both couples got married shortly after graduating.
Someone else from my law school class met someone who lived at the other end of the country while on winter break during his first year of law school. They got married before he started his third year of law school.
Law school most certainly doesn't stop you from entering a relationship. In fact, actively pursuing a relationship could help you in law school by keeping your life balanced. Even for the sake of being a good student (let alone actually enjoying yourself), you shouldn't work so much that you have no time for a social life. (Many first-year law students do work that hard, but it's counterproductive.)
I was more active in dating/relationships during law school than I had been before. Law school didn't help or hurt my dating life; if anything, I was better dating material for being in law school. It tells the world you're focused, driven, ambitious, and well-educated -- all good qualities.
posted by Jaltcoh at 1:35 PM on July 30, 2009
Someone else from my law school class met someone who lived at the other end of the country while on winter break during his first year of law school. They got married before he started his third year of law school.
Law school most certainly doesn't stop you from entering a relationship. In fact, actively pursuing a relationship could help you in law school by keeping your life balanced. Even for the sake of being a good student (let alone actually enjoying yourself), you shouldn't work so much that you have no time for a social life. (Many first-year law students do work that hard, but it's counterproductive.)
I was more active in dating/relationships during law school than I had been before. Law school didn't help or hurt my dating life; if anything, I was better dating material for being in law school. It tells the world you're focused, driven, ambitious, and well-educated -- all good qualities.
posted by Jaltcoh at 1:35 PM on July 30, 2009
I just graduated from law school. A goodly number of people in my class were married, though only a small percentage of them were married to each other (two couples I think, out of at least two dozen married people total). A number of these couples had kids either before they came--one guy is a father of four, another of five--and several had their first while in law school. These were mostly guys, but there was one girl in my class who got engaged, married, pregnant, and had her first all in law school. The little guy was born just after finals last December.
So as far as that goes, yeah, it's entirely possible to be married in law school. It's even possible to get married in law school, though in my experience this is less common than being married when you start.
I hate to bring this up, but your friend's age is starting to become a factor here, and not just on the relationship front. There are plenty of non-traditional students in law school--I was one of them, technically, but I'd estimate that somewhat less than 10% of my class was over 30 when they started. Thirty-eight wouldn't make her the oldest person in my class, but the only person older than that wasn't actually going to practice law; he had come out of the business world and was going back to his old job. Isn't even taking the bar. As far as people who go to law school with the intent to practice law for any length of time, she's way, way above the average age for a 1L.
There's a good reason for this: law school is expensive. Coming out with less than $100k in debt is quite a feat. Unless you land a fantastic job, i.e. a job with one of the firms that have been laying people off and deferring new hires in droves, your student debt is going to take you almost a decade to pay off, assuming you even get a job, which these days isn't that safe an assumption anymore. Your friend, if she started law school at 39--which is the earliest she could start--would be paying off her debt until she is past 50. That's starting to sound like a low-odds proposition.
Also, the "having a family" part is starting to look a little dicey. Thirty percent of women from 35-39 are infertile, and that goes up to sixty-four percent between 40 and 44. Unless she's okay with adoption, her best chance to have children is right now. If she wants to have kids of her own, she can no longer afford to wait. Fertility treatments and IVF are expensive, frequently not covered by health insurance, and don't always work.
Your friend need not resign herself to "spinsterdom." Plenty of people get married in life. Granted, most of them don't wind up having kids unless they had them already, so the fact that she's childless at 38 gives pretty good odds that she'll be childless forever, but that in no way bars getting married. But as she's going to be almost two decades older than most of her classmates in law school, finding someone to date from among her classmates, who will be the people she spends the most time around for three years, is going to be a tough sell. If she really wants to have a family, I can't say that going to law school is going to be her best option. If she were a decade younger, we'd be having a different conversation, but as it stands, she may well have to make some difficult choices about what she wants.
Long story short: my gut reaction to your question is that going to law school is going to significantly interfere with her ability to get married in the next few years, and if she's serious about wanting kids of her own, going to law school is probably not a good idea. That aside, going to law school that late in life sounds risky, given the fact that you're likely to come out with six figures in debt and a lot less time to pay it off than if you were 25.
posted by valkyryn at 1:37 PM on July 30, 2009 [5 favorites]
So as far as that goes, yeah, it's entirely possible to be married in law school. It's even possible to get married in law school, though in my experience this is less common than being married when you start.
I hate to bring this up, but your friend's age is starting to become a factor here, and not just on the relationship front. There are plenty of non-traditional students in law school--I was one of them, technically, but I'd estimate that somewhat less than 10% of my class was over 30 when they started. Thirty-eight wouldn't make her the oldest person in my class, but the only person older than that wasn't actually going to practice law; he had come out of the business world and was going back to his old job. Isn't even taking the bar. As far as people who go to law school with the intent to practice law for any length of time, she's way, way above the average age for a 1L.
There's a good reason for this: law school is expensive. Coming out with less than $100k in debt is quite a feat. Unless you land a fantastic job, i.e. a job with one of the firms that have been laying people off and deferring new hires in droves, your student debt is going to take you almost a decade to pay off, assuming you even get a job, which these days isn't that safe an assumption anymore. Your friend, if she started law school at 39--which is the earliest she could start--would be paying off her debt until she is past 50. That's starting to sound like a low-odds proposition.
Also, the "having a family" part is starting to look a little dicey. Thirty percent of women from 35-39 are infertile, and that goes up to sixty-four percent between 40 and 44. Unless she's okay with adoption, her best chance to have children is right now. If she wants to have kids of her own, she can no longer afford to wait. Fertility treatments and IVF are expensive, frequently not covered by health insurance, and don't always work.
Your friend need not resign herself to "spinsterdom." Plenty of people get married in life. Granted, most of them don't wind up having kids unless they had them already, so the fact that she's childless at 38 gives pretty good odds that she'll be childless forever, but that in no way bars getting married. But as she's going to be almost two decades older than most of her classmates in law school, finding someone to date from among her classmates, who will be the people she spends the most time around for three years, is going to be a tough sell. If she really wants to have a family, I can't say that going to law school is going to be her best option. If she were a decade younger, we'd be having a different conversation, but as it stands, she may well have to make some difficult choices about what she wants.
Long story short: my gut reaction to your question is that going to law school is going to significantly interfere with her ability to get married in the next few years, and if she's serious about wanting kids of her own, going to law school is probably not a good idea. That aside, going to law school that late in life sounds risky, given the fact that you're likely to come out with six figures in debt and a lot less time to pay it off than if you were 25.
posted by valkyryn at 1:37 PM on July 30, 2009 [5 favorites]
Good point, Valkyryn. All the individuals I mentioned were under 25 when they entered law school, I think, most more like 22-24.
posted by Pax at 1:44 PM on July 30, 2009
posted by Pax at 1:44 PM on July 30, 2009
My close friend was married when she started law school, and pregnant for a third of it, and had an infant for the last third of it. She did fine.
posted by mbatch at 1:52 PM on July 30, 2009
posted by mbatch at 1:52 PM on July 30, 2009
Your friend's age is the big issue here. At 38 it will be difficult for her to find a partner and get serious enough quickly enough for her to get pregnant. If it is important to her to bear her own children, she should consider single motherhood.
I hope that doesn't sound harsh, but your friend is in very difficult dating territory. A 38 year-old woman who wants to have kids sets off all sorts of alarms. She may get lucky and find the perfect guy (or gal) right away, and they could get down to business very soon. But that's a long shot.
I'd figure out that stuff before getting law school into the equation. Law school can wait a year.
posted by alms at 2:01 PM on July 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
I hope that doesn't sound harsh, but your friend is in very difficult dating territory. A 38 year-old woman who wants to have kids sets off all sorts of alarms. She may get lucky and find the perfect guy (or gal) right away, and they could get down to business very soon. But that's a long shot.
I'd figure out that stuff before getting law school into the equation. Law school can wait a year.
posted by alms at 2:01 PM on July 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
valrkyryn very astutely points out all the important considerations here. 38 is the big factor - not law school.
posted by greekphilosophy at 2:05 PM on July 30, 2009
posted by greekphilosophy at 2:05 PM on July 30, 2009
I dated a lot more people than I had in a long time while I was in law school. And now that I'm out in the real world I find myself with a lot fewer dates.
Most of my friends who entered law school in long term relationships were not in those relationships by the end of 1L year. Alarming few made it all the way through (I can think of one couple still together who were engaged before she even began and that's it, besides the folks who were already married), however tons of my friends from law school are now getting engaged to people they met while in law school (not necessarily in law school though).
That being said I'm over a decade younger than your friend and even if she goes to a law school with a higher average age she will still likely be significantly older than the majority of her classmates. However, I think going to law school (especially if she picks a law school with a good social life, some are known for being horribly competitive and anti social) her chances of meeting someone could only go up. In law school you just meet so many people. You have lots of friends and a ridiculous amount of acquaintances. Outside of finals, I was generally invited to at least 1 or 2 parties a week. Add on weekly bar review, people you meet through your internships, networking events and the list goes on and on. She's going to meet a lot of people and those people will largely be well educated and be interested in similar things. She may be less into the party scene at her age, but law school is a very work hard, play hard environment. People bond far more than in college because you are all stuck together under very stressful circumstances.
I don't know if law school will help her find a husband, but I don't think it would hurt. And honestly being a lawyer is about choices, a lot of people just can't turn down the massive paycheck of big law (of course that almost isn't even an option in this economy...), if you are will to take a lower paying job you can easily manage to raise a family.
I should put the disclaimer that I went to a fairly large law school in DC. There are tons of law schools in DC and it's obviously a major metropolis which makes meeting people a lot easier. I don't know what it would be like socially to go to a small law school in a small town.
posted by whoaali at 2:10 PM on July 30, 2009
Most of my friends who entered law school in long term relationships were not in those relationships by the end of 1L year. Alarming few made it all the way through (I can think of one couple still together who were engaged before she even began and that's it, besides the folks who were already married), however tons of my friends from law school are now getting engaged to people they met while in law school (not necessarily in law school though).
That being said I'm over a decade younger than your friend and even if she goes to a law school with a higher average age she will still likely be significantly older than the majority of her classmates. However, I think going to law school (especially if she picks a law school with a good social life, some are known for being horribly competitive and anti social) her chances of meeting someone could only go up. In law school you just meet so many people. You have lots of friends and a ridiculous amount of acquaintances. Outside of finals, I was generally invited to at least 1 or 2 parties a week. Add on weekly bar review, people you meet through your internships, networking events and the list goes on and on. She's going to meet a lot of people and those people will largely be well educated and be interested in similar things. She may be less into the party scene at her age, but law school is a very work hard, play hard environment. People bond far more than in college because you are all stuck together under very stressful circumstances.
I don't know if law school will help her find a husband, but I don't think it would hurt. And honestly being a lawyer is about choices, a lot of people just can't turn down the massive paycheck of big law (of course that almost isn't even an option in this economy...), if you are will to take a lower paying job you can easily manage to raise a family.
I should put the disclaimer that I went to a fairly large law school in DC. There are tons of law schools in DC and it's obviously a major metropolis which makes meeting people a lot easier. I don't know what it would be like socially to go to a small law school in a small town.
posted by whoaali at 2:10 PM on July 30, 2009
she has had some contacts. A lot of them seem to feel, though, that one cannot attend law school and have a family or a relationship at the same time
The logistics of biology aside and speaking as a female lawyer, I'd be very, very wary of those guys. Sure, law school is hard, and it can be consuming and stressful, but how much more hard and consuming and stressful is it than a regular ol' career? I mean, at my T-10 law school, nobody but the hardest of the hardcore grinders would spend in class/study/work more than about forty or forty-five hours a week until the final ramp-up for exams. If these guys wouldn't accept her spending forty hours a week absorbed in something besides them or the family, then how supportive will they be if she wants to get a full-time job, either outside the legal field or within it?
To me, a guy who has trouble in 2009 accepting that his girlfriend/wife -- no matter what her age is -- who has ambitions beyond him or their family is somebody who sets off my asshole radar.
Anecdata: some of the most successful students in my law school class were married Mormons who had gone on multi-year missions and were thus a bit older than the standard 22-24 year range. I know a gentleman who went to law school as a second career after being an engineer, and he is now working for the whitest of white shoe firms out in his dream locale. Meeting people can be a bit harder because law schools tend to operate as closed worlds, but I do know a transgender woman in her 50s on her third career, who did well and met her now-wife while in law school.
posted by joyceanmachine at 2:13 PM on July 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
The logistics of biology aside and speaking as a female lawyer, I'd be very, very wary of those guys. Sure, law school is hard, and it can be consuming and stressful, but how much more hard and consuming and stressful is it than a regular ol' career? I mean, at my T-10 law school, nobody but the hardest of the hardcore grinders would spend in class/study/work more than about forty or forty-five hours a week until the final ramp-up for exams. If these guys wouldn't accept her spending forty hours a week absorbed in something besides them or the family, then how supportive will they be if she wants to get a full-time job, either outside the legal field or within it?
To me, a guy who has trouble in 2009 accepting that his girlfriend/wife -- no matter what her age is -- who has ambitions beyond him or their family is somebody who sets off my asshole radar.
Anecdata: some of the most successful students in my law school class were married Mormons who had gone on multi-year missions and were thus a bit older than the standard 22-24 year range. I know a gentleman who went to law school as a second career after being an engineer, and he is now working for the whitest of white shoe firms out in his dream locale. Meeting people can be a bit harder because law schools tend to operate as closed worlds, but I do know a transgender woman in her 50s on her third career, who did well and met her now-wife while in law school.
posted by joyceanmachine at 2:13 PM on July 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
I will remain silent on the issue of whether of not law school is correlated with any ability or inability to get married and have children, although I think that I agree with valkryn's comments on this point.
However, with respect to valkryn's comment "Thirty percent of women from 35-39 are infertile," I must say that, in my unqualified opinion, that is a GROSS misinterpretation and mischaracterizatition of "A classic report on the effect of female age on fertility found that the percentage of women not using contraception who remained childless rose steadily according to their age at marriage...30% at age 35 to 39." If you are going to fearmonger with respect to the relationship between fertility and age, at least do so with current and accurate information.
posted by iknowizbirfmark at 2:23 PM on July 30, 2009 [2 favorites]
However, with respect to valkryn's comment "Thirty percent of women from 35-39 are infertile," I must say that, in my unqualified opinion, that is a GROSS misinterpretation and mischaracterizatition of "A classic report on the effect of female age on fertility found that the percentage of women not using contraception who remained childless rose steadily according to their age at marriage...30% at age 35 to 39." If you are going to fearmonger with respect to the relationship between fertility and age, at least do so with current and accurate information.
posted by iknowizbirfmark at 2:23 PM on July 30, 2009 [2 favorites]
If she hasn't had any luck finding "the one" by the age of 38, why does she think she's going to fare any better now?
She should rank what she wants the most. If she wants to find her soulmate and have a baby with him, it's really unlikely. It's more likely that she'll get into a top law school, since her LSAT is under her control. I don't know how fertile/infertile she is, but I think she's slightly more likely to be able to get successfully pregnant than to find her soulmate.
Would she want a baby without being married or having a partner? Because it's time to start cracking if that's going to be a big regret. Or does she want the package of love + marriage + baby?
I don't think all three at once is possible. Just my opinion.
posted by anniecat at 2:30 PM on July 30, 2009
She should rank what she wants the most. If she wants to find her soulmate and have a baby with him, it's really unlikely. It's more likely that she'll get into a top law school, since her LSAT is under her control. I don't know how fertile/infertile she is, but I think she's slightly more likely to be able to get successfully pregnant than to find her soulmate.
Would she want a baby without being married or having a partner? Because it's time to start cracking if that's going to be a big regret. Or does she want the package of love + marriage + baby?
I don't think all three at once is possible. Just my opinion.
posted by anniecat at 2:30 PM on July 30, 2009
I have to second anniecat on the package thing. If I were her, I think the decision needs to be "have a baby right now, or not, while being single and assuming that doesn't change." If she only wants a baby with a husband attached, then, well...odds aren't great of that.
Good points on law school taking a decade to pay off as well.
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:50 PM on July 30, 2009
Good points on law school taking a decade to pay off as well.
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:50 PM on July 30, 2009
Sadly, I really think the odds are against her, but the odds were against her from the start. Finding "the one" is generally considered a dicey prospect at best, regardless of age, and I think valkyryn has raised most of the points I would have.
As much as I love to root for the underdog, I wouldn't feel particularly optimistic. Having seen friends my age (mid-20s, average age of most law students) struggling with these issues in law school, I have a difficult time believing that it will go any better for a non-traditional student. Law school is hard on relationships. Full stop. The relationships I've seen last through law school were most often when both parties were simultaneously engaged in similarly vigorous academic programs (e.g. law student/law student, law student/med student, law student/physics grad student). Relationships started before law school generally suffered pretty heavily, and those that weathered the storm of school had new problems arise after graduation with the job offer shuffle. All of this has pretty heavily influenced my own feelings about attending law school, and I'm 25. That said, I don't think it can't be done, but I think your friend should really think hard about this if she want to do it.
posted by Diagonalize at 3:04 PM on July 30, 2009
As much as I love to root for the underdog, I wouldn't feel particularly optimistic. Having seen friends my age (mid-20s, average age of most law students) struggling with these issues in law school, I have a difficult time believing that it will go any better for a non-traditional student. Law school is hard on relationships. Full stop. The relationships I've seen last through law school were most often when both parties were simultaneously engaged in similarly vigorous academic programs (e.g. law student/law student, law student/med student, law student/physics grad student). Relationships started before law school generally suffered pretty heavily, and those that weathered the storm of school had new problems arise after graduation with the job offer shuffle. All of this has pretty heavily influenced my own feelings about attending law school, and I'm 25. That said, I don't think it can't be done, but I think your friend should really think hard about this if she want to do it.
posted by Diagonalize at 3:04 PM on July 30, 2009
About half of the people I know with JDs went the entire stretch from LSATs to the bar in a committed relationship, sometimes pregnant, sometimes a parent, and they did fine. One even passed the bar two days after childbirth. Law school is no more stressful on relationships than any other graduate degree (and it only lasts 3 years).
posted by billtron at 3:21 PM on July 30, 2009
posted by billtron at 3:21 PM on July 30, 2009
Eliminating the phrase "the one" from your vocabulary as a single woman should be the first move - every woman I know who thinks there is such a thing as a "soulmate" is still single.
Next should be deciding whether having a kid right now if the top priority, since that's the only one of her goals with a hard biological deadline.
posted by benzenedream at 3:25 PM on July 30, 2009 [2 favorites]
Next should be deciding whether having a kid right now if the top priority, since that's the only one of her goals with a hard biological deadline.
posted by benzenedream at 3:25 PM on July 30, 2009 [2 favorites]
A resource for the option several people have mentioned: Single Mothers by Choice.
posted by kestrel251 at 4:14 PM on July 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by kestrel251 at 4:14 PM on July 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
Lot of people in this thread have talked about folks they know who got met their eventual spouses in law school, so I might as well chime in to say that I was one of those people. My wife and I met right at the start of the first year, though we didn't become friends until later in the semester and didn't start seeing each other until well into the second semester.
I thought law school was a great time to meet people and have relationships. Unlike bars or online dating or what have you, you get to meet lots of people in non-pressured situations, have a chance to become friends with them first, and then maybe take things further if there's mutual interest. I'm not saying all law school romances start out like that, but to me, it sure is nice being able to meet people without pressure!
We moved in together second year, and it was also really great being with someone through the trials and tribulations of law school - someone who understands when you bitch about a prof or the workload, who has the exact same exam schedule as you, and who also has lots of free time. Free time, you ask? Isn't law school the ultimate grind?
Well, sure - you have to study a ton. (And I say that as someone who was a total slacker in college.) But unless you go nuts, you spend less time studying than you would spend working at a full-time job, especially after first year. And you can choose when you study, which means your free time is very flexible. Want to go to the zoo on a Tuesday afternoon? You can! And if your partner doesn't have class that afternoon, s/he can come with you!
All that said, other people have rightly mentioned that most people in law school are in their twenties. Some will be in their early thirties. Very, very few will be older than that. So it might not be a great dating scene for your friend if she wants to meet someone close to her in age. Then again, I have a friend who is about 30 in business school who spent some time dating a woman in his school who was ten years older.
I also note that the OP simply said his friend wants to "have a family." Many commenters seemed to read that as "give birth to children." Of course, there are other options for those who want kids, such as adoption.
posted by Conrad Cornelius o'Donald o'Dell at 4:44 PM on July 30, 2009
I thought law school was a great time to meet people and have relationships. Unlike bars or online dating or what have you, you get to meet lots of people in non-pressured situations, have a chance to become friends with them first, and then maybe take things further if there's mutual interest. I'm not saying all law school romances start out like that, but to me, it sure is nice being able to meet people without pressure!
We moved in together second year, and it was also really great being with someone through the trials and tribulations of law school - someone who understands when you bitch about a prof or the workload, who has the exact same exam schedule as you, and who also has lots of free time. Free time, you ask? Isn't law school the ultimate grind?
Well, sure - you have to study a ton. (And I say that as someone who was a total slacker in college.) But unless you go nuts, you spend less time studying than you would spend working at a full-time job, especially after first year. And you can choose when you study, which means your free time is very flexible. Want to go to the zoo on a Tuesday afternoon? You can! And if your partner doesn't have class that afternoon, s/he can come with you!
All that said, other people have rightly mentioned that most people in law school are in their twenties. Some will be in their early thirties. Very, very few will be older than that. So it might not be a great dating scene for your friend if she wants to meet someone close to her in age. Then again, I have a friend who is about 30 in business school who spent some time dating a woman in his school who was ten years older.
I also note that the OP simply said his friend wants to "have a family." Many commenters seemed to read that as "give birth to children." Of course, there are other options for those who want kids, such as adoption.
posted by Conrad Cornelius o'Donald o'Dell at 4:44 PM on July 30, 2009
Eliminating the phrase "the one" from your vocabulary as a single woman should be the first move - every woman I know who thinks there is such a thing as a "soulmate" is still single.
My experience is exactly the opposite, in that everyone I know who is pragmatic and practical and has settled for something merely-good is miserable and bitter about it, and wishes they had waited. Usually because they meet "the one" later. And then all hell falls down.
But romantics attract romantics, so no wonder these are my friends.
If I have seen any pattern, it's this: you always find the one you should be with after you stop looking.
posted by rokusan at 4:49 PM on July 30, 2009 [2 favorites]
My experience is exactly the opposite, in that everyone I know who is pragmatic and practical and has settled for something merely-good is miserable and bitter about it, and wishes they had waited. Usually because they meet "the one" later. And then all hell falls down.
But romantics attract romantics, so no wonder these are my friends.
If I have seen any pattern, it's this: you always find the one you should be with after you stop looking.
posted by rokusan at 4:49 PM on July 30, 2009 [2 favorites]
Agreed on your last line rokusan. I'm not advocating that everyone become romantic cynics - in my experience women who capitalize "The One" when speaking carry some preconceived notions of who that will be, and how "The One" will magically improve their life. (The usage and associated beliefs don't necessarily go together of course.) The agnostics who kept an open mind about romantic compatibility and made sure that they were happy with themselves first ended up with fun, loving relationships.
posted by benzenedream at 5:24 PM on July 30, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by benzenedream at 5:24 PM on July 30, 2009 [2 favorites]
Personally, I went out with a few girls from my law school while I was there - didn't marry any of 'em, but one relationship lasted around 3 years (we had to do combined degrees as undergrads, ie 5 years minimum).
And people might be overstating the study requirements, in my humble opinion. Skim read, people! Skim! There's so much rhetorical padding in judgements etc that you just don't need to read.
(my experience is that it's easy to pass law school with relatively minimal work; i suppose it depends on whether you really believe that the 20% of extra marks is worth the 80% of extra effort, considering that when you're in school marks seem like the be-all and end-all, but in the real world, softer skills & personality count for a lot)
posted by UbuRoivas at 7:42 PM on July 30, 2009
And people might be overstating the study requirements, in my humble opinion. Skim read, people! Skim! There's so much rhetorical padding in judgements etc that you just don't need to read.
(my experience is that it's easy to pass law school with relatively minimal work; i suppose it depends on whether you really believe that the 20% of extra marks is worth the 80% of extra effort, considering that when you're in school marks seem like the be-all and end-all, but in the real world, softer skills & personality count for a lot)
posted by UbuRoivas at 7:42 PM on July 30, 2009
Assuming she hasn't yet, I'd tell her to sign up for the LSAT, study, and give it a whirl. If she really wants to go to law school, do it now. Frankly, I'd be more worried about career limitations than fertility. "Older" women, probably over 35 in the law world, have a harder time. Law is a male dominated industry, and youth and energy are prized. My mom started at a top-tier law school at about 45, with a PhD, and has had to fight hard to get what's considered a mediocre job. On the other hand, she managed to stay married with three teenagers. And job market sucks, huge debt, blah blah blah.
As for relationships, in retrospect, I think it would be doable. Yeah, you have to study a lot, but there's still at least as much free time as with a regular job. But despite this, I was a wreck in law school. If I had had an ounce of perspective, it would have been a different story. Law school often brings out the worst in people, but it doesn't have to. Those are two big life dreams to chase at once, but what's the harm in going for what you want?
posted by LolaCola at 8:22 PM on July 30, 2009
As for relationships, in retrospect, I think it would be doable. Yeah, you have to study a lot, but there's still at least as much free time as with a regular job. But despite this, I was a wreck in law school. If I had had an ounce of perspective, it would have been a different story. Law school often brings out the worst in people, but it doesn't have to. Those are two big life dreams to chase at once, but what's the harm in going for what you want?
posted by LolaCola at 8:22 PM on July 30, 2009
Wow; Conrad Cornelius o'Donald o'Dell and I have remarkably similar stories. I met my wife the first week of law school. We hooked up near the end of the first semester, lived together by our 2L year, were married in our 3L year, and have a pair of kids now and a happy marriage.
We both worked our asses off in school and balancing kids, careers, and decisions about when and for how long to stay home is a trick, but overall I feel very lucky to have a lawyer for a wife because we have a host of common experiences (like getting through law school, studying for and taking the bar, and practicing law) and understandings (like what it means to win summary judgment or get knocked around at a deposition) that make our relationship stronger.
Nthing the number of people who note that the legal market is horrendous right now; as an in-house lawyer I believe that the move away from using outside lawyers is a more permanent shift than firm lawyers might believe or hope. So if your friend dreams of a law firm job she may have a very difficult time.
posted by AgentRocket at 9:28 PM on July 30, 2009
We both worked our asses off in school and balancing kids, careers, and decisions about when and for how long to stay home is a trick, but overall I feel very lucky to have a lawyer for a wife because we have a host of common experiences (like getting through law school, studying for and taking the bar, and practicing law) and understandings (like what it means to win summary judgment or get knocked around at a deposition) that make our relationship stronger.
Nthing the number of people who note that the legal market is horrendous right now; as an in-house lawyer I believe that the move away from using outside lawyers is a more permanent shift than firm lawyers might believe or hope. So if your friend dreams of a law firm job she may have a very difficult time.
posted by AgentRocket at 9:28 PM on July 30, 2009
If I were her friend, I would suggest that she put off going to law school until she has had children. Because law school at 45 isn't that different from law school at 38*, but trying to have children at 45--especially for women--is a hell of a lot different from trying to have children at 38.
*i.e., they are both going to be suboptimal in terms of competition for jobs. My guess, though, is that the 45-year-old woman with a 5-year-old is going to have a marginal advantage over the 41-year-old woman who really wants to have children.
Now that we've disposed of that, the next question is "Have children now, or wait to get married?" Big question. It depends whether having biological children or having a spouse and coparent is more important to her.
Anecdata: I have lots of female friends who married for the first time after age 38. Three of them had their first children in their 40s without fertility treatments; two had children with fertility treatments; one tried fertility and is now adopting; two never wanted children; three I don't know about. I got married for the first time at 34 and was one of the youngest to marry among my same-age female friends.
And when I count the "married for the second time and had first child after age 38" female friends, I'm in the double digits. So it's certainly possible.
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:32 PM on July 30, 2009
*i.e., they are both going to be suboptimal in terms of competition for jobs. My guess, though, is that the 45-year-old woman with a 5-year-old is going to have a marginal advantage over the 41-year-old woman who really wants to have children.
Now that we've disposed of that, the next question is "Have children now, or wait to get married?" Big question. It depends whether having biological children or having a spouse and coparent is more important to her.
Anecdata: I have lots of female friends who married for the first time after age 38. Three of them had their first children in their 40s without fertility treatments; two had children with fertility treatments; one tried fertility and is now adopting; two never wanted children; three I don't know about. I got married for the first time at 34 and was one of the youngest to marry among my same-age female friends.
And when I count the "married for the second time and had first child after age 38" female friends, I'm in the double digits. So it's certainly possible.
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:32 PM on July 30, 2009
I should also say that everyone I know who went to law school after age 35 has either a public-defender, assistant DA, or other public-service job (working for a non-profit, for instance), or works as a tax attorney.
I think the chances of getting a decent placement in a law firm as a 40-something new associate are pretty slim. So if your friend wants to be an assistant DA, a public defender, a guardian ad litem, or something like that--or to work for a 501 (c) 3--she'll probably be OK. If she thinks that she's going to get a job at a fancy law firm making big cash, she's probably going to be out of luck.
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:36 PM on July 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
I think the chances of getting a decent placement in a law firm as a 40-something new associate are pretty slim. So if your friend wants to be an assistant DA, a public defender, a guardian ad litem, or something like that--or to work for a 501 (c) 3--she'll probably be OK. If she thinks that she's going to get a job at a fancy law firm making big cash, she's probably going to be out of luck.
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:36 PM on July 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
So if your friend wants to be an assistant DA, a public defender, a guardian ad litem, or something like that--or to work for a 501 (c) 3--she'll probably be OK.
anecdote: i once worked with a woman in a refugee law centre who waited until her children had all reached 18, and then was "OK, you're old enough now, I'm outta here!", relocated to the other end of the country & went through law school. i think she started legal work at around 55.
sounds harsh, but she was a great big softie & a massive hippie, so i have no doubt her kids had a great upbringing & she knew they could fend for themselves.
posted by UbuRoivas at 12:04 AM on July 31, 2009
anecdote: i once worked with a woman in a refugee law centre who waited until her children had all reached 18, and then was "OK, you're old enough now, I'm outta here!", relocated to the other end of the country & went through law school. i think she started legal work at around 55.
sounds harsh, but she was a great big softie & a massive hippie, so i have no doubt her kids had a great upbringing & she knew they could fend for themselves.
posted by UbuRoivas at 12:04 AM on July 31, 2009
All of those things are definitely possible. But she's got a big hurdle; as others have said 38 is pretty old to start thinking about this stuff. At her age if she wants a family she probably needs to prioritize that first. She can always apply to law school but it's going to get progressively harder to have children, progressively harder to take care of them, and progressively more likely that her children are born with birth defects. It is an unfortunately legacy of our genetics.
So if she really wants kids she has some hard choices to make. Others have said she can always adopt when she's older, and that does address the birth defects and fertility issue, but it doesn't address the fact that it's a hell of a lot harder to raise a kid at 55 than at 25 or 35. Raising kids is emotionally and physically demanding.
posted by Justinian at 2:56 AM on July 31, 2009
So if she really wants kids she has some hard choices to make. Others have said she can always adopt when she's older, and that does address the birth defects and fertility issue, but it doesn't address the fact that it's a hell of a lot harder to raise a kid at 55 than at 25 or 35. Raising kids is emotionally and physically demanding.
posted by Justinian at 2:56 AM on July 31, 2009
My personal experience was that I had a boyfriend my first year but then we broke up and I went solo for the other two years. I don't think there's any reason why you can't date during law school. In fact, I think dating (or any thing that helps ground you) is very, very good. I graduated near the top of my class and my philosphy was always that having outside interests helped keep me sane, which in turn made me a better, more focused student.
If it helps, try setting a study schedule and stick to it. That way, when it's not study time you can enjoy yourself and not feel guilty that you're not studying.
Good Luck.
posted by bananafish at 10:30 AM on July 31, 2009
If it helps, try setting a study schedule and stick to it. That way, when it's not study time you can enjoy yourself and not feel guilty that you're not studying.
Good Luck.
posted by bananafish at 10:30 AM on July 31, 2009
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