Therapy without doctors
July 11, 2009 9:28 AM   Subscribe

I can't do therapy. There must be other people who can't do therapy. What do these people do, when they get together, to fix their problems? What DIY, collaborative options are on the table, and how do I find them?

I've had a really bad month to year -- graduate school has gone from bad to worse, and I can't get out of it. Suffice it to say, I am very, very sad. I've spent a lot of the last year alone, and am now am estranged from a lot of my friends. I've tried relocating temporarily to a new city, but I find myself getting increasingly desperate and related ramifications of total isolation. I have one friend who I talk to, and I feel like there's a limited tolerance for this kind of thing (there would be if I were the friend -- and he's been incredibly patient -- but it's got to be exhausting to listen to).

When I'm really sad, I get really paranoid, and I just fail totally to be able to communicate. This is obviously a problem. I do have this friend -- but again, I feel like I lean on him a lot -- and it's all I can do, when I'm really upset, to even make that contact.

Obvious solution -- therapy! Right? Therapy fixes everything! Except that I really, really object to this, and can't imagine attempting to fix what's wrong with my life -- itself the product of a highly professionalized, goal-and-career-oriented trajectory -- by going in for an hour a day of treatment I can't afford, talking to a "qualified medical professional" for forty five minute, once a week. I don't think that these are a substitute for basic, warm, HUMAN contact (not professionalized contact), which is what I feel like I need right now --- leaving aside the entirely disingenuous "fee-for-service" structure of mental health care (and especially private psychiatric care) that is a given in engaging with the medical establishment in any capacity.

I know there are groups that do low-cost community therapy. The ones I've seen in New York (where I am) are all part of the state hospital system -- which again, I don't want to go anywhere near or touch. I've seen a few that look like they make sense to me, but they're mostly in San Francisco. The one thing that has worked for me is low-cost yoga and meditation type stuff -- I've been doing a little bit of this in Philadelphia (where I am right now) and it's been a tremendous (if transient) relief. If anyone has suggestions for places they know and trust, in this line (or in the group therapy line) in New York, I would really appreciate any guidance.

Thanks in advance for all your help...and I'm sorry, in advance, for so aggressively bashing CBT, which I know a lot of people use, and which probably works. All I mean to say is, it doesn't work for me, and I'd REALLY like advice on where else to go...
posted by anonymous to Health & Fitness (31 answers total) 12 users marked this as a favorite
I don't think that these are a substitute for basic, warm, HUMAN contact (not professionalized contact)

Not being snarky, but evidence kind of proves you wrong there. Not in all cases, of course. If you're in graduate school still, you should have coverage and/or free options simply from being a student. The thing about therapy is people see it as a big bogeyman, when in reality it's no different than going to the doctor to get a bone set. Or perhaps a closer analogy, going to a physiotherapist after an injury.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 9:38 AM on July 11, 2009

You won't have any contact with the state hospital system when seeking treatment in Philadelphia, the state hospitals are totally shut down to anyone who isn't coming directly from the prison system. You can take a look at the local radical mental health advocacy group The Icarus Project, if they don't have what you're looking for they might be able to help you find it. I can also discuss the local community treatment aspect with you in greater detail if you want, don't hesitate to contact me.
posted by The Straightener at 9:41 AM on July 11, 2009

I suggest joining a health club. Exercise helps you physically and mentally and the social interaction will help you meet a few people who if nothing else can have a juice and talk after a workout.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 9:49 AM on July 11, 2009 [2 favorites]

> All I mean to say is, [therapy] doesn't work for me

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Have you tried it or not? Because from your post it just sounds like you're assuming therapy can't possibly work for you and so you won't try it.

You're completely right in that if you're only spending one hour a week working on whatever problems you have, you won't get anywhere. But here's the thing: The vast majority of your therapy work is outside that one hour a week. You need to keep busy the rest of the week, and that one hour is where you can talk to someone who is knowledgeable and impartial (or at least otherwise disconnected from the rest of your life) who can give you some advise or direction on how to proceed. Therapy might help you in doing something where you might get some more of that basic, warm, human contact you crave. And perhaps find other things which might help too.

Other than that, if you have the energy, try to get out and meet new people. There are a bunch of AskMe questions about how to get a new social circle from scratch which are filled with good answers. If you want human contact, you have to go out and find it, because it won't come and find you.
posted by bjrn at 10:04 AM on July 11, 2009 [1 favorite]

Grad Schools usually have free programs to help stressed out students and often they have peer group sessions. Mine school did and so did my wife's.
posted by octothorpe at 10:04 AM on July 11, 2009

I find it curious that commenters start from the premise that the OP must not ever have gone to therapy since it doesn't work for him. I don't claim any special knowledge of the OP's history with CBT or other therapeutic modalities, of course, but I have to say that the reaction is (predictably) dismissive. Mefites love them some therapy, and that's fine, but to presume that because it works for you it must work for everyone is just silly on its face.
posted by Emperor SnooKloze at 10:24 AM on July 11, 2009 [6 favorites]

I'm not a great fan of old-style psychoanalysis. Like you, I see it paying for someone to listen to you.

Having said that, counselling in general isn't aimed at fixing your problems per se, it's aimed at providing you with a range of tools and strategies to deal with life and fix your own problems. A good counsellor is a teacher and guide more than anything else, and most I know would suggest stress-reduction techniques like yoga and meditation.

Apart from people who've just been released from an in-patient psych unit, I don't know anyone whose "therapy" is on a daily basis. The people I've known whose visits are weekly tend to be those who are doing interpersonal therapy - the whole intention of which is to be goal-oriented and of short duration (6-8 weeks usually). More often than not, the process is learn technique, practise, check back in, so when there are ongoing issues the scheduled visits are usually 4-6 weeks apart with instructions to call for an earlier appointment if everything goes pear-shaped.

I guess my point is that there are many kinds of psychological help available apart from the traditional Freudian psychoanalysis model. A good counsellor will suggest a range of options, use a range of styles and will be totally honest about whether psychiatric help is required in addition to to psychological support.

For what it's worth, what you're aggressively bashing doesn't at all resemble CBT as I've experienced it being delivered. You're describing a style of delivering services used by some analysts/therapists/counsellors - and they're probably going to use that delivery style no matter what therapeutic techniques they use. Try to find a therapist who uses a different delivery model and who uses a range of different techniques.
posted by Lolie at 10:29 AM on July 11, 2009

Could you speak to a rabbi or priest or shaman or something? I know at least they won't charge a fee.
posted by Kloryne at 10:56 AM on July 11, 2009

Actually a shaman will certainly charge a fee - scratch that.
posted by Kloryne at 10:56 AM on July 11, 2009 [1 favorite]

leaving aside the entirely disingenuous "fee-for-service" structure of mental health care (and especially private psychiatric care)

The one thing that you didn't mention was medication, which I suspect you might be adverse to trying, but I know several people who I am very close to with similar attitudes as yours that did not progress until they were on a strictly monitored medication regime and under private (and expensive) psychiatric care. Both feel like they really got what they paid for and both would say that they were harmed by state mental health programs (having let their own problems magnify until intervention was necessary and not recognizing the value of highly trained private practice psychiatrists).

Or, you can be like me, and internalize everything until you harden up to the point of ossification...though this has its own drawbacks.
posted by mrmojoflying at 11:07 AM on July 11, 2009

All I can say is I know how you feel about therapy...especially if you've tried to get it at your school. I've had nothing but problems with all the ones I've been to. Until college, they seemed to think I'd respond to pediatric treatments, and in college it was even worse. One seemed rather anxious to talk about sex...and the other actually told me I had no reason to be there if I wasn't there to ask for a referral to get medication at the nearby hospital the school collaborated with.
Counsellors never provided me with "the tools I needed", so I guess I'm just naturally resentful.
If you could actually find out one of your friends was studying to be a psychologist, that would be lucky, wouldn't it. I've found more help in writing down everything I was thinking, day after day, just to organise my thoughts if nothing else, which in itself is a lot of the problem sometimes.
posted by lhude sing cuccu at 11:21 AM on July 11, 2009

I agree with you that therapy won't help you, because you are so vehemently against the possibility that it could. I don't want you to go to therapy, in that case. (I also don't really understand your side comment about having bashed CBT, since you actually didn't say anything about CBT in your entire post up until that point--that makes me think that maybe you misunderstand many of the basic concepts/parts of therapy, but that's not really the problem.) Here is what I see--you have a problem of some sort, and you want it to be fixed, but you're basically closing and locking and barricading and shunning 8 of 10 possible doors to finding that fix because you don't accept those solutions--without necessarily fully understanding them. I'm not AT ALL saying therapy is the solution for you, but I am saying that what could prove extremely helpful for you to take a step back and think that maybe you don't actually know everything about everything ever, and that some of the things you're discounting as possibly helpful solutions could actually help you if you take a little time to try to understand them and/or backed up with your immediate judgment.

Also, please keep in mind that therapists need to pay their rent/mortgage and their student loans (from the years of education they paid for to learn how to be therapists) and raise families and buy food and clothing, just like you do.
posted by so_gracefully at 11:35 AM on July 11, 2009 [5 favorites]

"leaving aside the entirely disingenuous "fee-for-service" structure of mental health care"

This is illogical. Would you refuse surgery if needed because of its 'entirely disingenuous "fee-for-service" structure'? What about if you were arrested for a crime you didn't commit - your lawyer would be another 'entirely disingenuous "fee-for-service" structure' right there. Those yoga and meditation classes? Fee-for-service, are they not?

I guess if you object to paying a fee to receive aid you state you critically need, you could seek counseling from clergy, or from local support groups. Some people do in fact find these areas to be really helpful.

However, as someone who has benefited VASTLY from therapy for anxiety and depression, particularly in response to difficult life situations (like law school, the bar exam and the death of my child from brain cancer when she was nine months old), I will tell you that the relief and healing I've experienced through therapy is worth exponentially more than I am paying. Granted, I am very lucky to have insurance coverage for these services now, but haven't always had it.

There's a lot of different kinds of therapy - not just CBT. My therapy sessions are a lot less structured, and help me view my life situations differently. In between sessions, through trial and error I attempt to apply the ideas I discussed in session, and report back for further discussion as to whether there was success, failure or what. I've learned to be a MUCH better listener, more empathetic, more patient and to avoid emotional panic by unpacking my expectations.

I've also had BAD therapists - one sticks out that I stayed with for months despite things obviously not going well. That happens. Absolutely that is possible. But don't let one bad experience (if you've had it) or the fear of one bad experience put you off from something that might be of incredible help to you.

I also want to mention that, in response to your comment "in for an hour a day of treatment I can't afford", almost all therapists other than the now-disproved psychoanalytic school, typically see patients once per week, not once per day. Also, many therapists (mine included) recommend meditation, yoga, acupuncture and other techniques in conjunction with therapy. It sounds to me like you've gotten your ideas about what therapy would be like from TV and movies, and I really want to strongly assure you that those representations are often very inaccurate.
posted by bunnycup at 11:36 AM on July 11, 2009 [2 favorites]

Oh, forgot my concrete helpful solution: volunteer at a homeless shelter, children's cancer ward, humane society, etc.
posted by so_gracefully at 11:36 AM on July 11, 2009 [1 favorite]

What about co-counseling, which is a peer-based form of mutual sharing/counseling? I have no personal experience with it but do have friend who've been involved and gotten a lot out of it. Some people I know co-counsel with each other and are also friends, so it is part of, but not the entirety of, their relationships together. That might help with the "human warmth" piece you're looking for.

I linked to one co-counseling website just FYI but I can't recommend any particular group or mode.
posted by not that girl at 11:41 AM on July 11, 2009

Oh, forgot my concrete helpful solution: volunteer at a homeless shelter, children's cancer ward, humane society, etc.

This much is true. You have no idea what "very, very sad" even is until you've spent some time in a pediatric cancer hospital. You will see children and families who have every right to be very, very sad (and I am not suggesting you don't have the right, by the way), who instead have hope for the future, more compassion for others than you've ever seen in one place, and an incredible knack at getting through the worst. news. in. the. world. with smiles and love. You will see children who, by all medical understanding, shouldn't even be able to walk, running around playing the day after radiation treatment or while chemotherapy courses through their bodies. And THEY will cheer YOU up.

The above is a digression, but so_gracefully really brings up a valuable and excellent point that if you truly feel therapy isn't for you, you might gain some holistic strength and tons of self-worth and self-respect by volunteering your time in any capacity to help those less fortunate than yourself.
posted by bunnycup at 11:44 AM on July 11, 2009

I don't think that these are a substitute for basic, warm, HUMAN contact (not professionalized contact), which is what I feel like I need right now --- leaving aside the entirely disingenuous "fee-for-service" structure of mental health care (and especially private psychiatric care) that is a given in engaging with the medical establishment in any capacity.

Be certain these ethical and other objections do not mask a fear to engage your actual problems. They quite often do.

Other than that, purchase "Feeling Good" by Dr. David Burns and do exactly what it says, including the written exercises daily for a significant period of time, so as to be sure you aren't avoiding your issues.
posted by Ironmouth at 12:00 PM on July 11, 2009 [1 favorite]

I don't think that these are a substitute for basic, warm, HUMAN contact (not professionalized contact), which is what I feel like I need right now

They aren't! IMHO what's going on here is that modern society is f***ed up, and it gets to some people more than others, but a lot of people are unhappy in it, because it's isolating, competitive, depressing, and generally f***ed up. If you're this isolated, of course you're sad, it would make lots of people sad. And therapy is recommended as an answer because we've come to put the responsibility on the individual to adapt to miserable situations. Except we don't have universal health care, so a significant number of people who might want or need therapy can't afford it anyway. God bless America.

Also, grad school isn't the military, you can get out of it. Should you, if it's taking this much of a toll on you?
posted by citron at 12:21 PM on July 11, 2009

Um, bunnycup speaks a brutal truth. But if you're anything like me, anonymous, you won't stop crying just because someone else is crying louder and longer.

Try assessing the things that are good in your life. Your physical health. Your independence. Your skill at xxxxx. Don't let your depression define you.
posted by vickyverky at 1:24 PM on July 11, 2009

There must be other people who can't do therapy. What do these people do

Get better therapists. Dismissing all of therapy as something you "can't do" is just another way of letting your illness steer you into corners.
posted by hermitosis at 1:52 PM on July 11, 2009

I'm one of those people that bristles at Metafilter's ongoing insistence that therapy (or exercise or DTMF) is the cure to all that ails you.

I went with Metafilter on it, thinking, "Hell, I could be wrong, yeah?" and went to therapists- one for 4 months, one for 3 months. One talk therapy, explore things. One more CBT. And it was totally, utterly useless for me. The second one I hated so much I may turn it into a comic book about what a waste of time and money it was.

I have had luck talking to people - funnily enough, not my friends who've done lots of therapy, because they annoy me in their desire to play therapist.

Other things (but of course your mileage may vary since obviously therapy, exercise and bacon cupcakes work for other people)

Meditation - faux, ghetto, figure-it-out-myself meditation, mostly with books like Pema Chondron's When Things Fall Apart - worked wonders for me. In fact, it was great when she talks about why too much therapy can actually make your life worse, etc. I didn't want to do it formally. I just read a book. Tried some of the exercises while I was on planes for business trips. Best thing that's ever happened to my mental health.

Volunteering - Nothing snaps me back to better than being needed. If I have time and space to think about why I'm so damn sad or mad, whatever, I end up dwelling on things, making them bigger. High pressure volunteer work for a cause you believe in, well, for me it took my mind off things and actively demonstrated I could make a difference and that my dwelling wasn't working. And then at the end of the day, I felt exhausted and empowered.

I think that's why folks always recommend exercise as well - for that "I did it" combined with exhaustion, but for me, exercise is a prison of the mind that drives me absolutely nuts, even with a very loud iPod.

Writing. Writing for me is cathartic, particularly freewriting (paper or typewriter, *not* a computer). Once it's on a piece of paper, there's no need to dwell on it or rehash things. And I can explore, wander, not try to accomplish too much.

Can you get better without therapy? I have no idea. Neither does anyone else here. We're not you.

But I believe if you put in the effort to post a question, you're already making an effort. If you try a bunch of things - perhaps even including exercise, free counseling, contributing to bake sales, working on vegetable gardens for the poor, taking a class doing something you love, etc., etc. If you can even make the effort, even if you hate it, you're going to get through this. If you can't. If you can't try, if you can't overcome, if it's interfering with your basic ability to function at any level, then it's time to talk to your doctor.

But that's me. It's likely I'm as full of crap as the therapist who talked to me through g-damn beanie babies during our first session. (shrug)
posted by Gucky at 2:04 PM on July 11, 2009 [7 favorites]

Co-counseling is what I thought of, too. I have no personal experience with it but have a friend who was very involved, and it sounds very much like what you're looking for.
posted by escabeche at 2:53 PM on July 11, 2009

I respect your position on therapy. I've done it, once, it wasn't particularly satisfactory for me. I could have put energy and time into making it work, but I decided to put energy and time into making my life work without it. Depression isn't going to go away, so I find ways of living (more-or-less) successfully with it.

I can't always control my thoughts and emotions, but I can control what I actually do, and that allows me to ride out the bad spells. It takes a lot of discipline. It basically comes down to having minimum standards for life, and fulfilling them religiously whether I want to or not.

My minimum standards are: Always show up for work. Do something nice for colleagues at least once a week (I show up with doughnuts or sweets on a Friday). Get out of the house at least once a day, every day, without fail, even if it's just to buy cigarettes. Walk a few miles a week, whatever the weather. Always either answer the phone or call back at the nearest opportunity. Accept invitations if physically possible. Offer to help strangers.

Even if I feel like The Worst Person In The World, I do those things. Other things I can let slide, if it's one of those days/weeks. If I do those things, there's a lower limit to how my life is. It's my "hanging on in there" mode of existence, and most of the time, I'm doing much better than that. The trick is not getting into a spiral of feeling bad->fucking up->feeling bad.

On a broader scale, I would advise evaluating your life seriously. That minimum mode of existence? If you're doing it for months or years on end without feeling like a decent human being, your depression is more serious than mine and you need help of some kind at least in the short term. Aside from drugs and therapy, you may also want to find a way of life that makes you happy. I crashed out in a big way in my early twenties because I had no idea what was going on with my head. My life is very different from how I wanted it to be, but my life is awesome because I decided what I wanted to do, and did it. That decision is a powerful thing. What I'm trying, haltingly, to say is that you should focus on more than the short term so that you have a satisfactory answer for the 4am insomnia questions.

If, despite your best efforts, your life is spiralling out of control and getting worse because of this, you need to see a doctor NOW. Since mental health affects self-perception, you may want to ask a trusted friend for an opinion on this.

Disclaimer: I am not a therapist, nor am I anti-therapist. The person that helped me most when I was in the crisis stage was an incredible academic advisor.
posted by Wrinkled Stumpskin at 2:54 PM on July 11, 2009 [7 favorites]

Um, bunnycup speaks a brutal truth. But if you're anything like me, anonymous, you won't stop crying just because someone else is crying louder and longer.

Hey, that was not my point at all! I spent months in a pediatric cancer hospital with my daughter and I will tell you, there is very little crying to be found. My point was that helping others, and seeing them face their misfortunes/tragedies with joy and hope, might help the OP to see more positivity in his or her own life.
posted by bunnycup at 3:19 PM on July 11, 2009 [1 favorite]

It sounds like your main problems are stress and isolation. Here's a few suggestions for grad-specific solutions:

Is there a graduate association at your school? At mine there's a school-wide (not department specific) one that does stuff like "grad escapes" which are relatively cheap cultural/entertainment things. A good way to meet people who are going through the same sort of stress and isolation as you are.

Also, the school (at the administrative level) offers a number of "classes" and seminars for a variety of things, everything from how to write your CV to how to shop for groceries in our city. These might be worth checking out for a) the possibility of meeting people and b) for ones that might address actual problems that you are having.

Try reaching out to a few of your friends who you've lost touch with. Give yourself one day off from work per week, totally, and give that over to social and life things. If you've mostly lost touch because of time issues, reaching out will probably solve most of the problem. If there are other issues, well, you might have to think about what you need to do to overcome them, but give yourself some time and permission to do so.

Try to figure out what is giving you the most stress and think of some techniques to control its affect on your life. There's obviously a school factor from your post: is it that work is taking over your life? Give yourself an efficiency level below which you quit for the day and relax, recharging for tomorrow. Is it your advisor's unavailability? Think about what you would like from them, write a little progress report and ask for a specific response (this may or may not work... I'm trying to give you some examples to start brainstorming with). Is it that you hate your project? Can you change the focus a little? Can you write up a timeline with incremental steps and focus on getting them done (each one is a step closer to finishing!).

If you feel like what I've said in that last paragraph hits a bit of a note with you, but it isn't exactly speaking to your problem, well, that's the kind of thing that you might be able to get help from a therapist with; some strategies for dealing with your stress. *If* you decide it's worth a try, get one used to dealing with students (grad students), give very specific instructions about what you want (for instance: "my problem is X, and I want to develop some strategies for dealing with it"), and don't be afraid to switch around until you get the right one.

Best of luck. I hope you find something to help you. Most of us (grad students) have been where you are, or nearby. I hope you find your way out of it soon!
posted by carmen at 3:28 PM on July 11, 2009

I've met several people who have really good things to say about Recovery International which is a self-help group. It looks like they have meetings in New York - click on the Find a Meeting tab.
posted by jasper411 at 4:07 PM on July 11, 2009

Seconding Icarus and also, there are numerous self help groups-- national self help clearinghouse can help you find them.

As someone else noted too, I think you also are right that people often blithely suggest therapy as the answer to problems that have more to do with our completely fucked up selfish society and the lack of relational connections we have as a result. That said, it can help with specific issues-- and as others have noted, if the problem is actual depression, it might well be that meds will help you get back on track so that you don't feel too needy to have your needs met by people close to you.

So, you might want to just get a complete psychiatric evaluation (which you could get for free/ low cost at Columbia or NYU or any of the big teaching hospitals/ research centers here) and see if meds make sense and find out if there are diagnosable issues or you are just going through a rough period. Either way, exercise, volunteering and reaching out to people and just getting out more and prioritizing social contact could help.

Also, you didn't mention your family, so I'm wondering if there are family you could reach out to for support-- if not or even if there are some, you will probably want to work to develop a solid social network as well. Without that, you are correct that therapy ultimately won't help because we all do need that to be mentally healthy and finding and building that is a major challenge in this world. To get the warm human contact you need, though, if you are depressed or have difficulty keeping friends, some kind of therapy might help in the interim-- or self help.
posted by Maias at 7:02 PM on July 11, 2009

I don't think that these are a substitute for basic, warm, HUMAN contact (not professionalized contact)

I'm not sure they're supposed to or trying to.

Your post suggests you tried CBT, and that it didn't work for you. Have you tried a more classic analysis type of therapy (talk therapy)? Usually, the advice is to get a session with at least three or four therapists to find one that you trust and that you feel will help you.
posted by NekulturnY at 12:13 AM on July 12, 2009

Hi anonymous, I'm so sorry you're feeling so isolated and sad. I'm really glad you've got a friend to talk to and that you've been trying different techniques to help yourself feel better -- like switching locales and asking for help from the Hive.

It sounds like you're feeling like you don't want to lean too heavily on that friend of yours, and are looking for some alternatives. Have you considered calling a hotline? 800-273-TALK is the number for the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline, which I mention because this post is tagged with "suicide." It can give you someone to talk to at any time of day or night, and you can speak with the person about what other local services might be something you feel connected to. Call centers should have a solid list of local info.

New York City (where I live, and it seems where you are, too?) has a lot of free or cheap resources. You're right -- it's finding them that can be difficult! Yoga for the People on St. Marks has donation yoga classes, and getting into your body and doing some physical activity could help get those positive endorphines going.

I hear what you're saying about individual therapy, and it sounds as if you have reservations about going into it. You're allowed to have those feelings and you're allowed to change your mind, too. Though I would disagree with you on the "Therapy fixes everything" statement. It doesn't; you do. I have found the POSA program at Beth Isreal to be useful for me. It is long-term psychotherapy given by psychiatry residents under supervision. They don't go through insurance and their fees are sliding scale (for a grad student, I bet you could work out like $10-20 per session). I do take medication along with therapy, and I get both with one person, which is an approach I've found I like. It might not be yours at the moment, or in the future.

I'm sorry you've been struggling and look forward to that time for you when you're feeling better. Feel free to PM me if you'd like. I don't check up on threads as much as I used to.
posted by Sweetdefenestration at 12:35 PM on July 22, 2009

bunnycup, I apologize -- I truly didn't mean to belittle your experiences. What I meant to say, which obviously came out wrong, was that when *I* am depressed, I often find it too overwhelming to be around other people who are also depressed, or have problems they might not be able to get over. The expression I used was one my grandmother used to say to me when I was a kid, crying over nothing in particular.
posted by vickyverky at 7:39 PM on July 24, 2009

What about co counselling?
posted by y6t5r4e3w2q1 at 6:31 PM on January 13, 2010

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