Directing Headhunters?
June 29, 2009 12:14 AM Subscribe
An executive search firm has given my wife an offer to be the director of a new office they plan to open in a few months. We know very little about the industry and even less about the specific role. It sounds interesting and the money is pretty good too.
Google and other business-related searches have provided little information.
They will send her and 10 others (also new directors of new offices) for 3 months of all expenses paid training.
My wife's background is finance. She just completed an mba from a top school and has had difficulty finding a job.
Can you help fill us in about the work she would be doing? Also, she is concerned about her career path if it doesn't work out.
Google and other business-related searches have provided little information.
They will send her and 10 others (also new directors of new offices) for 3 months of all expenses paid training.
My wife's background is finance. She just completed an mba from a top school and has had difficulty finding a job.
Can you help fill us in about the work she would be doing? Also, she is concerned about her career path if it doesn't work out.
Put me down for "sketchy".
posted by NekulturnY at 1:13 AM on June 29, 2009
posted by NekulturnY at 1:13 AM on June 29, 2009
If there's a company out there who will
- offer people they don't know jobs without interviewing them first.
- open ten new offices during a recession.
- hire people for directorships who need three months full time training... during a recession
- hire new graduates with no relevant experience for directorships
Then this company is not one that you want to be working for.
PS. If this doesn't work out, I have a bridge for sale she might be interested in.
posted by emilyw at 1:19 AM on June 29, 2009
- offer people they don't know jobs without interviewing them first.
- open ten new offices during a recession.
- hire people for directorships who need three months full time training... during a recession
- hire new graduates with no relevant experience for directorships
Then this company is not one that you want to be working for.
PS. If this doesn't work out, I have a bridge for sale she might be interested in.
posted by emilyw at 1:19 AM on June 29, 2009
I agree it sounds awfully dodgy, though it's tough to see what her exposure to risk is from the information provided. 26.2's contact-mining theory is plausible, but there are far less expensive ways to get a database than for a three-month paid vacation. What else could they be after? Perhaps they ask her to "invest" in "her" business during the three months on the brainwashing isolation island compound?
Does she receive her real (promised) salary during this "training?" If so, and if that's a pre-signed contract item, I'd probably do it just to see how it all works and figure it out, because hey, heck of a paid experience, right? And then if it turns out to be too slimy or dodgy, at least you have great material for a book. This takes willpower, of course.
Does this company HAVE other offices, or are these the first ten? If others exist, it's reasonable for her to contact a few to 'interview' others in her position to find out about the job. It's best to find these people on your own rather than ask for references, of course, since those can be staged. You could also ask the placement firm for references of others they have placed with the same business.
I'd move ahead, but slowly and carefully, asking questions and generally being very careful. If they're legit, they will respect and admire that, and it will help her. If they're out to pull some sort of scam, they will back away and eventually withdraw the offer from someone who isn't "trusting" enough.
posted by rokusan at 1:23 AM on June 29, 2009
Does she receive her real (promised) salary during this "training?" If so, and if that's a pre-signed contract item, I'd probably do it just to see how it all works and figure it out, because hey, heck of a paid experience, right? And then if it turns out to be too slimy or dodgy, at least you have great material for a book. This takes willpower, of course.
Does this company HAVE other offices, or are these the first ten? If others exist, it's reasonable for her to contact a few to 'interview' others in her position to find out about the job. It's best to find these people on your own rather than ask for references, of course, since those can be staged. You could also ask the placement firm for references of others they have placed with the same business.
I'd move ahead, but slowly and carefully, asking questions and generally being very careful. If they're legit, they will respect and admire that, and it will help her. If they're out to pull some sort of scam, they will back away and eventually withdraw the offer from someone who isn't "trusting" enough.
posted by rokusan at 1:23 AM on June 29, 2009
Sounds like a scam, although I'm not sure what the angle is. If she knows the proper business name she should be able to find some type of paperwork with her newly minted MBA skills. If not, that's a big red flag, and as rokusan said, any reputable company won't hide ownership info. Does the employment contract look legit, and do you have everything in writing already?
posted by benzenedream at 1:54 AM on June 29, 2009
posted by benzenedream at 1:54 AM on June 29, 2009
Perhaps they ask her to "invest" in "her" business during the three months on the brainwashing isolation island compound?
Any scam will, at some point, ask for an investment, but it will probably be small compared to the (perceived) benefit. It might well be a scam to simply get a few hundred/thousand dollars out of her, which will seem small compared to the salary and benefits they are promising, which might run into the tens of thousands of dollars.
It sounds an awful lot like the "I'll make you a supermodel scam", this one. The "Supermodel" scam is where some talent manager promises young girls that he'll get them huge contracts in Milan and Paris. Thousands of dollars per shoot! For this, they need a portfolio. Cost: 500 dollars. When the portfolio is done and clients start to show interest, it's essential she take some lessons in being a model (500 $). And now, there's a shoot next week! It will pay 3000 $! Let's get some 'professional' make up (350 $) and a haircut (250 $)! Oh, sorry, the shoot fell through!
But be aware that there might be more sophisticated scams out there where your wife will be named "director" of the company or a subsidiary, the "head office" will do A LOT of shopping in her name, and disappear leaving your wife with a shitload of debt that could cripple you financially. I advise you to be very, very careful.
posted by NekulturnY at 2:22 AM on June 29, 2009 [1 favorite]
Any scam will, at some point, ask for an investment, but it will probably be small compared to the (perceived) benefit. It might well be a scam to simply get a few hundred/thousand dollars out of her, which will seem small compared to the salary and benefits they are promising, which might run into the tens of thousands of dollars.
It sounds an awful lot like the "I'll make you a supermodel scam", this one. The "Supermodel" scam is where some talent manager promises young girls that he'll get them huge contracts in Milan and Paris. Thousands of dollars per shoot! For this, they need a portfolio. Cost: 500 dollars. When the portfolio is done and clients start to show interest, it's essential she take some lessons in being a model (500 $). And now, there's a shoot next week! It will pay 3000 $! Let's get some 'professional' make up (350 $) and a haircut (250 $)! Oh, sorry, the shoot fell through!
But be aware that there might be more sophisticated scams out there where your wife will be named "director" of the company or a subsidiary, the "head office" will do A LOT of shopping in her name, and disappear leaving your wife with a shitload of debt that could cripple you financially. I advise you to be very, very careful.
posted by NekulturnY at 2:22 AM on June 29, 2009 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Sorry - more details:
She went through the interview process which involved several stages including math/liguistic/logic tests, a strategy case, and interviews. She was contacted by the firm after she applied to another offer that they posted for a position for one of their clients. She was sent the job description and decided to apply - given the poor job market and the fact that they contacted her (better chance of getting the job).
Her experience managing a small financial services firm was the main selling point (management experience, building relationships, sales) as well as a brief stint as a strategy consultant.
Now that she has been offered the job, she is really considering it.
The company is privately-held and started about 8 years ago. There is very little info that we can find about them because they are not publicly traded. She is contacting her network to see what people know about this company, and I thought I'd try here too.The business is expanding internationally (which might explain the expansion during recession).
The contract should arrive in this week.
She will be paid 75% in fixed salary and up to 25% in bonus based upon benchmarks agreed upon during the training session. Plus other benefits.
Thanks for the comments so far. Also, does anyone have any information about the industry and specific role that she'd be involve in? And possibly, where she might go from there if it doesn't work out as promised?
posted by meantime at 2:28 AM on June 29, 2009
She went through the interview process which involved several stages including math/liguistic/logic tests, a strategy case, and interviews. She was contacted by the firm after she applied to another offer that they posted for a position for one of their clients. She was sent the job description and decided to apply - given the poor job market and the fact that they contacted her (better chance of getting the job).
Her experience managing a small financial services firm was the main selling point (management experience, building relationships, sales) as well as a brief stint as a strategy consultant.
Now that she has been offered the job, she is really considering it.
The company is privately-held and started about 8 years ago. There is very little info that we can find about them because they are not publicly traded. She is contacting her network to see what people know about this company, and I thought I'd try here too.The business is expanding internationally (which might explain the expansion during recession).
The contract should arrive in this week.
She will be paid 75% in fixed salary and up to 25% in bonus based upon benchmarks agreed upon during the training session. Plus other benefits.
Thanks for the comments so far. Also, does anyone have any information about the industry and specific role that she'd be involve in? And possibly, where she might go from there if it doesn't work out as promised?
posted by meantime at 2:28 AM on June 29, 2009
Can you help fill us in about the work she would be doing?
does anyone have any information about the... specific role that she'd be involve in?
Nobody can meaninfully address questions like these with so little information. We don't even know the name of the company, let alone have a job description for this position. All anyone can do with this is speculate. Why isn't your wife asking her potential employer these very questions?
posted by jon1270 at 3:01 AM on June 29, 2009
does anyone have any information about the... specific role that she'd be involve in?
Nobody can meaninfully address questions like these with so little information. We don't even know the name of the company, let alone have a job description for this position. All anyone can do with this is speculate. Why isn't your wife asking her potential employer these very questions?
posted by jon1270 at 3:01 AM on June 29, 2009
The additional info you provided help to clarify the situation. I also work for a privately owned company, and there is indeed much less information than a publicly traded one out there.
Maybe she could contact someone at her university's career center and/or alum office? The career center could help with the "what is the job" part of the her question, and depending on the size of the company it's possible that there are other graduates of her MBA program already working there who she could contact.
posted by macska at 3:19 AM on June 29, 2009
Maybe she could contact someone at her university's career center and/or alum office? The career center could help with the "what is the job" part of the her question, and depending on the size of the company it's possible that there are other graduates of her MBA program already working there who she could contact.
posted by macska at 3:19 AM on June 29, 2009
Best answer: I work in the industry, and remain a little amused that every time there's a question about headhunters/recruiters, there are always a few knee-jerk responses that tend towards distrust and suspicion. Some in this industry are shady. So are some accountants. So are some cheese mongers. So long as she seems comfortable with the decision, that's all that matters.
Here's a counter-argument regarding opening offices during a recession: the actual headhunters/recruiters your wife is likely to be managing will probably be commission-based, using their talents of networking and cold-calling to give exposure to the company's name in the market without much financial risk. Not to mention there are a lot of headhunters/recruiters unemployed or looking for a change at the moment, and not to mention the market is also flooded with talented workers all looking for the right next gig.
Since we're talking about executive search, investment in a recession means that placing even a very few number of talented VP/C-Level candidates in new opportunities gives your firm a significant contact none of your competition has once the market shifts from buyer's to seller's again.
Anyway, she's presumably smart enough to read her contract and know what she's getting herself into. I'll be the one guy so far here to encourage her to throw herself into it, if the language checks out. She'll be running the office from a business perspective, responsible for identifying and hiring operational folks (Admins, Recruiters, Back Office) to fill out her staff, and passing along the knowledge she gains in her three month training period to these people to help increase the office's chance of survival. The one piece of advice I can offer to her is that she'll be responsible for selling the only product in the world that can say "NO," which necessarily means that making a match that sticks requires an absolute ton of hand-holding and a good enough attitude to not take it personally when the candidate backs out at the last minute (well, and a backup plan - always have one of those too).
Good luck to her. Hope the contract doesn't offer too many surprises.
posted by GamblingBlues at 3:30 AM on June 29, 2009
Here's a counter-argument regarding opening offices during a recession: the actual headhunters/recruiters your wife is likely to be managing will probably be commission-based, using their talents of networking and cold-calling to give exposure to the company's name in the market without much financial risk. Not to mention there are a lot of headhunters/recruiters unemployed or looking for a change at the moment, and not to mention the market is also flooded with talented workers all looking for the right next gig.
Since we're talking about executive search, investment in a recession means that placing even a very few number of talented VP/C-Level candidates in new opportunities gives your firm a significant contact none of your competition has once the market shifts from buyer's to seller's again.
Anyway, she's presumably smart enough to read her contract and know what she's getting herself into. I'll be the one guy so far here to encourage her to throw herself into it, if the language checks out. She'll be running the office from a business perspective, responsible for identifying and hiring operational folks (Admins, Recruiters, Back Office) to fill out her staff, and passing along the knowledge she gains in her three month training period to these people to help increase the office's chance of survival. The one piece of advice I can offer to her is that she'll be responsible for selling the only product in the world that can say "NO," which necessarily means that making a match that sticks requires an absolute ton of hand-holding and a good enough attitude to not take it personally when the candidate backs out at the last minute (well, and a backup plan - always have one of those too).
Good luck to her. Hope the contract doesn't offer too many surprises.
posted by GamblingBlues at 3:30 AM on June 29, 2009
I work in the industry, and remain a little amused that every time there's a question about headhunters/recruiters, there are always a few knee-jerk responses that tend towards distrust and suspicion.
I think it has more to do with the way OP worded his question.
"She has trouble finding work" and "just finished business school" do not match well with "she will become director of a new office, together with ten others", especially during a recession. There's what you could call a credibility gap there.
posted by NekulturnY at 3:40 AM on June 29, 2009
I think it has more to do with the way OP worded his question.
"She has trouble finding work" and "just finished business school" do not match well with "she will become director of a new office, together with ten others", especially during a recession. There's what you could call a credibility gap there.
posted by NekulturnY at 3:40 AM on June 29, 2009
Response by poster: "She has trouble finding work" and "just finished business school" do not match well with "she will become director of a new office, together with ten others", especially during a recession. There's what you could call a credibility gap there.
Sorry again for not being more clear at the outset. I thought it was common knowledge that fresh mba's from top schools are facing a tough job market too. One of the top 5 schools currently has over 40% of the graduating class that are still looking.
posted by meantime at 5:15 AM on June 29, 2009
Sorry again for not being more clear at the outset. I thought it was common knowledge that fresh mba's from top schools are facing a tough job market too. One of the top 5 schools currently has over 40% of the graduating class that are still looking.
posted by meantime at 5:15 AM on June 29, 2009
Best answer: Your wife should check out ere.net for good articles about recruiting/headhunting to learn more about how the industry works.
posted by sevenyearlurk at 5:23 AM on June 29, 2009
posted by sevenyearlurk at 5:23 AM on June 29, 2009
You misunderstood me, meantime. I didn't mean to say that you weren't truthful in depicting the circumstances your wife is in. I don't doubt what you say about your wife graduating from a top MBA school, nor do I doubt that she's facing a tough job market.
What made people think "scam" is the fact that a company, seemingly out of the blue, offered your just-graduated wife a managing job in headhunting. Plus the fact that you said you couldn't find out much about the company. Knowing that the headhunting business is hurting very badly right now, and that due to the downsizing everywhere, there's a lot of unemployed people out there with more experience than your wife. Those are the red flags that commenters, myself included, saw in your OP.
posted by NekulturnY at 5:26 AM on June 29, 2009
What made people think "scam" is the fact that a company, seemingly out of the blue, offered your just-graduated wife a managing job in headhunting. Plus the fact that you said you couldn't find out much about the company. Knowing that the headhunting business is hurting very badly right now, and that due to the downsizing everywhere, there's a lot of unemployed people out there with more experience than your wife. Those are the red flags that commenters, myself included, saw in your OP.
posted by NekulturnY at 5:26 AM on June 29, 2009
This question makes no sense.
1) You say your wife graduated from a top MBA program
2) Your wife has been offered a job at a company about which she knows nothing
3) You do not tell us the name of the company in question
And you expect us to come up with a coherent piece of advice as to what your wife should do?
Seriously?
You need to take a long, hard look at the assumptions underlying your post. None of them are reasonable:
1) Why would a graduate of a top MBA program be unable to find out any information about a company--even a privately held one? I don't have an MBA yet know of many ways to find out information about privately held companies. Hoover's for example, access to which "top MBA students" have as a matter of course?
2) Why would you accept, or even consider accepting, a job at a company about which information is allegedly so hard to come by?
3) Why would you think that, in the absence of telling us the name of this company, anyone here would have anything meaningful to say?
posted by dfriedman at 6:39 AM on June 29, 2009
1) You say your wife graduated from a top MBA program
2) Your wife has been offered a job at a company about which she knows nothing
3) You do not tell us the name of the company in question
And you expect us to come up with a coherent piece of advice as to what your wife should do?
Seriously?
You need to take a long, hard look at the assumptions underlying your post. None of them are reasonable:
1) Why would a graduate of a top MBA program be unable to find out any information about a company--even a privately held one? I don't have an MBA yet know of many ways to find out information about privately held companies. Hoover's for example, access to which "top MBA students" have as a matter of course?
2) Why would you accept, or even consider accepting, a job at a company about which information is allegedly so hard to come by?
3) Why would you think that, in the absence of telling us the name of this company, anyone here would have anything meaningful to say?
posted by dfriedman at 6:39 AM on June 29, 2009
I have interviewed with privately owned companies and understand it can be extremely difficult to find information about them. The red flag for me was that your wife apparently does not fully understand what the job entails despite going through the interview process with this company. Every interview I've been in has been a two-way dialogue; you want to learn more about the company and the job as much as they want to assess your qualifications. That a company would offer a high-level position to somebody who doesn't know what the job is about is suspect in my eyes.
And as others have mentioned, it will be difficult for anybody here to tell you more about the company if we don't even know what it's called.
posted by pravit at 8:45 AM on June 29, 2009 [1 favorite]
And as others have mentioned, it will be difficult for anybody here to tell you more about the company if we don't even know what it's called.
posted by pravit at 8:45 AM on June 29, 2009 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Yes, many top MBA schools are having a hard time placing grads. No shame in needing to continue looking for the right job.
rokusan missed my point a bit. If it's a scam, the value is having an alumni contact other alumni. It's not just that she'll have the names and addresses. She'll also have a very good chance of reaching the target and opening a dialog. I know that I always respond to alums of my B-school when they request help. It's drilled into you during B-school that you should always try to help other alums.
That said, she needs to go work the alumni/B-school network for information.
Regarding the firm: If it's been in business for 8 years, then someone in the alumni network will know about the firm. Ask the alumni what they think of the firm and the job offer. Also in 8 years, an executive headhunting firm should have placed or recruited some of her B-school's alums. Ask the career placement office what they think of the firm.
Regarding the work: Have your wife go through the alumni database and look for people in competing firms and people with similar job titles. Set up appointments for informational interviews (20 minutes by phone is fine). When requesting the interview, tell them she has an offer and she'd like their advice.
GamblingBlues, I'm not anti-headhunters. I was recruited to my last two jobs by headhunters. However, there's something dodgy in having an offer out to someone who's clueless about the job offering. I've never worked with a headhunter who wasn't very specific about what they were looking for and what I should expect.
Last point, an MBA is supposed to prepare you to move forward on your career path. How does managing a regional office of a headhunter firm work into her longterm goals? It sounds more like this is the only port available in this particular storm.
posted by 26.2 at 9:02 AM on June 29, 2009 [1 favorite]
rokusan missed my point a bit. If it's a scam, the value is having an alumni contact other alumni. It's not just that she'll have the names and addresses. She'll also have a very good chance of reaching the target and opening a dialog. I know that I always respond to alums of my B-school when they request help. It's drilled into you during B-school that you should always try to help other alums.
That said, she needs to go work the alumni/B-school network for information.
Regarding the firm: If it's been in business for 8 years, then someone in the alumni network will know about the firm. Ask the alumni what they think of the firm and the job offer. Also in 8 years, an executive headhunting firm should have placed or recruited some of her B-school's alums. Ask the career placement office what they think of the firm.
Regarding the work: Have your wife go through the alumni database and look for people in competing firms and people with similar job titles. Set up appointments for informational interviews (20 minutes by phone is fine). When requesting the interview, tell them she has an offer and she'd like their advice.
GamblingBlues, I'm not anti-headhunters. I was recruited to my last two jobs by headhunters. However, there's something dodgy in having an offer out to someone who's clueless about the job offering. I've never worked with a headhunter who wasn't very specific about what they were looking for and what I should expect.
Last point, an MBA is supposed to prepare you to move forward on your career path. How does managing a regional office of a headhunter firm work into her longterm goals? It sounds more like this is the only port available in this particular storm.
posted by 26.2 at 9:02 AM on June 29, 2009 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Wow, some of you are really skeptics. That's great too, I guess.
My original question was less about asking for help in gathering information about the company - more about general information related to the industry and the position. The company is not very big and there isnt much news about them. I wasn't originally concerned that offer might be a scam. My wife spoke to the head of the career office at her school and confirmed that the company has worked together with the school in the past and they've never had any issues.
Last point, an MBA is supposed to prepare you to move forward on your career path. How does managing a regional office of a headhunter firm work into her longterm goals? It sounds more like this is the only port available in this particular storm.
26.2, your last point is dead on. The real concern that I had was that this wasn't part of her long term plan at all. It would be a change of direction. We're trying to decide whether it's a good change. That's the difficult part.
While she's been in school, her field (financial services) has fallen apart. Getting the type of job she had originally planned to get after the mba is (at least for the near future) not very likely. An mba is supposed to move you forward. This year that's not a given.
Anyway, with her not wanting to be unemployed for long, loans for school that she will have to pay back, and the interesting offer, she's considering it.
Again, to 26.2's point, the interest is to gather more data points about the job to decide whether this particular "port" is a good one (even if it wasn't her intended destination). I'm looking for knowledge of the industry, the position, career path, and contingency plans in case she needs to make a change in the future.
posted by meantime at 9:39 PM on June 29, 2009
My original question was less about asking for help in gathering information about the company - more about general information related to the industry and the position. The company is not very big and there isnt much news about them. I wasn't originally concerned that offer might be a scam. My wife spoke to the head of the career office at her school and confirmed that the company has worked together with the school in the past and they've never had any issues.
Last point, an MBA is supposed to prepare you to move forward on your career path. How does managing a regional office of a headhunter firm work into her longterm goals? It sounds more like this is the only port available in this particular storm.
26.2, your last point is dead on. The real concern that I had was that this wasn't part of her long term plan at all. It would be a change of direction. We're trying to decide whether it's a good change. That's the difficult part.
While she's been in school, her field (financial services) has fallen apart. Getting the type of job she had originally planned to get after the mba is (at least for the near future) not very likely. An mba is supposed to move you forward. This year that's not a given.
Anyway, with her not wanting to be unemployed for long, loans for school that she will have to pay back, and the interesting offer, she's considering it.
Again, to 26.2's point, the interest is to gather more data points about the job to decide whether this particular "port" is a good one (even if it wasn't her intended destination). I'm looking for knowledge of the industry, the position, career path, and contingency plans in case she needs to make a change in the future.
posted by meantime at 9:39 PM on June 29, 2009
Here is what I would do:
1. Make a list of 20 or so possible paths for MBAs in your wife's situation, disregarding the current state of the economy - put in both her dream job and some entry resembling the current offer
3. Have her rank them by her interest, trying to ignore the financial considerations and current offer.
4. Go back and rank them by estimates as to the probability of jobs existing in the field in the next few years
5. See which job paths are both feasible and interesting
If "Managing executive headhunters" is near the bottom in terms of interest, drop the offer unless you really need the money. It'll be a miserable dead end for her and she'll just have to change direction in a few years. The financial considerations are a distraction from the question of whether she'll be happy and growing in the new job. Better a few months of pain now rather than a couple years stuck doing something she may hate.
posted by benzenedream at 11:52 PM on June 29, 2009
1. Make a list of 20 or so possible paths for MBAs in your wife's situation, disregarding the current state of the economy - put in both her dream job and some entry resembling the current offer
3. Have her rank them by her interest, trying to ignore the financial considerations and current offer.
4. Go back and rank them by estimates as to the probability of jobs existing in the field in the next few years
5. See which job paths are both feasible and interesting
If "Managing executive headhunters" is near the bottom in terms of interest, drop the offer unless you really need the money. It'll be a miserable dead end for her and she'll just have to change direction in a few years. The financial considerations are a distraction from the question of whether she'll be happy and growing in the new job. Better a few months of pain now rather than a couple years stuck doing something she may hate.
posted by benzenedream at 11:52 PM on June 29, 2009
This thread is closed to new comments.
- How much of her compensation is commission based?
- Setting up a new office often entails spending lots of time selling the service to new business clients. Is she willing to do that?
- How did she get to the offer stage without a full understanding of the job? That seems odd.
- 10 Regional offices in this economy? I have a good friend with a boutique headhunting firm. She has years of experience and fantastic contacts since she's placed CEOs, COOs, CIOs. Even she can't expand her business now.
My guess is that during that 3 months of "training" she'll be expected to harvest her B-school alumni database. Those new "offices" might never actually pan out, but they'll have a wealth of contacts that they paid very little to gather.
posted by 26.2 at 1:02 AM on June 29, 2009