Do I really have to say goodbye to all that, so soon?
June 28, 2009 5:04 PM Subscribe
I love my husband. But we can't really have sex, and that's not going to change. I'm thinking of looking elsewhere for it.
I am a straight woman in my early forties, and my husband and I have been married for nearly a decade. He's a brilliant and lovely and very courageous man, and I love him dearly. I know he loves me too, and he's very good to me. But several years ago, he suffered significant nerve damage as a result of surgical complications, and as a result, our formerly enjoyable sex life has become very grim. He still experiences sexual desire, but he doesn't have enough nerve endings left to feel much actual sensation, and it is extremely difficult for him to achieve orgasm. (I should note that he already uses erectile dysfunction drugs, which help slightly, and that we are well aware of all the options and treatments available. I'm not seeking advice on the management of his medical issues.)
We still regularly engage in... well, I don't really think of it as sex any longer. I think of it as "Trying," a difficult and difficult-to-describe set of activities that very occasionally leads to an orgasm for him (a few times a year), but mostly not. Trying generally lasts for a couple of hours, and it is a fairly tense and often heartbreaking exercise that is of necessity focused pretty exclusively on him. He is always happy to do anything he can for me sexually, but since it does still turn him on, I afterward have the unappealing choice of either ignoring his needs or starting a round of Trying. So I don't ask. And I miss sex. I miss fun, easy, sexy sex, and I really miss sharing it with a partner who's having fun as well.
As much as I love my husband, sometimes I rebel against the idea that I will be cut off from the pleasures of the flesh for the rest of my life. Lately I have found myself wondering whether it would be possible to occasionally seek them elsewhere, and whether I would be such a very bad person if I were to do so. I am not interested in strangers, drama, or unnecessary risk, but my husband occasionally travels on business, and I have fantasized about having a discreet and trusted friend whom I could visit during the odd intervals when he's away. I have only a small circle of friends where I live at present, and I don't think there's anyone locally who would be both interested and sufficiently well-known to me, but I have an old friend back in my hometown whom I could at least see once or twice a year when I visit my family. I've known him since grade school and would trust him completely. He's habitually unattached -- so I wouldn't be infringing on a wife or a girlfriend -- and he's fond enough of me that he would never do anything to hurt me or jeopardize my marriage. (Although he's not fond enough of me to get hurt. We were friends with benefits back before the phrase was invented, but there's no greater spark between us.) I haven't even hinted at this to him, but I'll be visiting my hometown in a few months and would like to make up my mind in advance.
My husband is handling a deeply painful disability with more grace and patience than I would have thought possible. I love and admire him for it, and for many other things, and I have no intention of leaving him. But it's hard for me too, and sometimes the years stretching ahead look very bleak. I never thought I would seriously contemplate breaking my vows, but I also never thought I'd be in an essentially sexless marriage before I was 40. MeFites, have any of you been in a similar situation? If you were in my position, would you do it?
I am a straight woman in my early forties, and my husband and I have been married for nearly a decade. He's a brilliant and lovely and very courageous man, and I love him dearly. I know he loves me too, and he's very good to me. But several years ago, he suffered significant nerve damage as a result of surgical complications, and as a result, our formerly enjoyable sex life has become very grim. He still experiences sexual desire, but he doesn't have enough nerve endings left to feel much actual sensation, and it is extremely difficult for him to achieve orgasm. (I should note that he already uses erectile dysfunction drugs, which help slightly, and that we are well aware of all the options and treatments available. I'm not seeking advice on the management of his medical issues.)
We still regularly engage in... well, I don't really think of it as sex any longer. I think of it as "Trying," a difficult and difficult-to-describe set of activities that very occasionally leads to an orgasm for him (a few times a year), but mostly not. Trying generally lasts for a couple of hours, and it is a fairly tense and often heartbreaking exercise that is of necessity focused pretty exclusively on him. He is always happy to do anything he can for me sexually, but since it does still turn him on, I afterward have the unappealing choice of either ignoring his needs or starting a round of Trying. So I don't ask. And I miss sex. I miss fun, easy, sexy sex, and I really miss sharing it with a partner who's having fun as well.
As much as I love my husband, sometimes I rebel against the idea that I will be cut off from the pleasures of the flesh for the rest of my life. Lately I have found myself wondering whether it would be possible to occasionally seek them elsewhere, and whether I would be such a very bad person if I were to do so. I am not interested in strangers, drama, or unnecessary risk, but my husband occasionally travels on business, and I have fantasized about having a discreet and trusted friend whom I could visit during the odd intervals when he's away. I have only a small circle of friends where I live at present, and I don't think there's anyone locally who would be both interested and sufficiently well-known to me, but I have an old friend back in my hometown whom I could at least see once or twice a year when I visit my family. I've known him since grade school and would trust him completely. He's habitually unattached -- so I wouldn't be infringing on a wife or a girlfriend -- and he's fond enough of me that he would never do anything to hurt me or jeopardize my marriage. (Although he's not fond enough of me to get hurt. We were friends with benefits back before the phrase was invented, but there's no greater spark between us.) I haven't even hinted at this to him, but I'll be visiting my hometown in a few months and would like to make up my mind in advance.
My husband is handling a deeply painful disability with more grace and patience than I would have thought possible. I love and admire him for it, and for many other things, and I have no intention of leaving him. But it's hard for me too, and sometimes the years stretching ahead look very bleak. I never thought I would seriously contemplate breaking my vows, but I also never thought I'd be in an essentially sexless marriage before I was 40. MeFites, have any of you been in a similar situation? If you were in my position, would you do it?
I'm so sorry.
One question you don't address: can you at least guess what your husband's reaction would be if you brought this up? Not necessarily the old friend, but the general question of whether & how it could ever be acceptable for you to look elsewhere? Because the ideal situation would be to have an agreement, a way for you to have your needs taken care of without destroying the trust & intimacy of your marriage.
But, of course, one wouldn't want to bring it up, if the answer is going to be "good god no; how can we even be discussing this??"
posted by kestrel251 at 5:13 PM on June 28, 2009 [1 favorite]
One question you don't address: can you at least guess what your husband's reaction would be if you brought this up? Not necessarily the old friend, but the general question of whether & how it could ever be acceptable for you to look elsewhere? Because the ideal situation would be to have an agreement, a way for you to have your needs taken care of without destroying the trust & intimacy of your marriage.
But, of course, one wouldn't want to bring it up, if the answer is going to be "good god no; how can we even be discussing this??"
posted by kestrel251 at 5:13 PM on June 28, 2009 [1 favorite]
If your husband is OK with it, if the other person is OK with it (and they're not cheating on somebody to do so) then... why not?
But really- you need to be up-front with everyone involved.
posted by dunkadunc at 5:14 PM on June 28, 2009 [4 favorites]
But really- you need to be up-front with everyone involved.
posted by dunkadunc at 5:14 PM on June 28, 2009 [4 favorites]
I'm not going to give a definitive answer on this one... I can see that you're in a really uncomfortable situation, but I think that you should avoid at all costs doing anything he could see as a betrayal behind his back.
That said, some husbands would be ok with such an action. I'd not be one of them myself, but I wouldn't condemn someone who was. Tread very carefully.
posted by fearnothing at 5:16 PM on June 28, 2009
That said, some husbands would be ok with such an action. I'd not be one of them myself, but I wouldn't condemn someone who was. Tread very carefully.
posted by fearnothing at 5:16 PM on June 28, 2009
Have you two considered couples' counselling to facilitate a discussion about this? NB: many people see 'counselling' and think 'but there's nothing wrong with me'. I'm not saying there, just that a professionally disinterested third party can help the conversation to happen and help keep you both clear and honest about what each of you needs, and help to ensure there are strategies in place if one of you feels hurt.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 5:16 PM on June 28, 2009 [11 favorites]
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 5:16 PM on June 28, 2009 [11 favorites]
He's a brilliant and lovely and very courageous man, and I love him dearly.
I believe you.
I also believe that if you decided to do as you have suggested, you are putting things at risk that you probably don't want to lose. Not to mention that I doubt you'd be happy to settle for once or twice a year, if you know what I mean.
Having said that, you are in a terribly unenviable position and it is understandable why you pose the question.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 5:16 PM on June 28, 2009 [2 favorites]
I believe you.
I also believe that if you decided to do as you have suggested, you are putting things at risk that you probably don't want to lose. Not to mention that I doubt you'd be happy to settle for once or twice a year, if you know what I mean.
Having said that, you are in a terribly unenviable position and it is understandable why you pose the question.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 5:16 PM on June 28, 2009 [2 favorites]
Talk to your husband. Both about what you're considering and about what's currently happening between you. If you need to see a counselor to have that conversation, see one. But you need to tell him that you're avoiding intimacy with him because you're afraid that after he gets you off, you'll have to go through the motions with him. It's possible that he doesn't see it the same way, that he'd be happy to have easy sex where only you orgasm most of the time. It's also possible that he's never thought of it from your perspective. But you need to talk with him about it.
posted by decathecting at 5:20 PM on June 28, 2009 [12 favorites]
posted by decathecting at 5:20 PM on June 28, 2009 [12 favorites]
The vow is "In sickness and in health". I know it's hard, but just because it's hard isn't an excuse to be dishonest. If your husband is okay with this, then proceed. Else, those vows are a big, big deal and they're not meant to be fairweather.
posted by GilloD at 5:21 PM on June 28, 2009 [15 favorites]
posted by GilloD at 5:21 PM on June 28, 2009 [15 favorites]
"For better or for worse, in sickness or in health.."
Talk to your husband but don't tell him you're thinking of cheating. There is more than one type of sex, surely you guys can figure something out.
posted by txvtchick at 5:22 PM on June 28, 2009 [6 favorites]
Talk to your husband but don't tell him you're thinking of cheating. There is more than one type of sex, surely you guys can figure something out.
posted by txvtchick at 5:22 PM on June 28, 2009 [6 favorites]
How does he feel about Trying? Is it tense and heartbreaking for him? Would he himself rather Try only occasionally, or for some length of time less than a couple of hours?
I think the first step should be to talk to your husband about limiting Trying, and seeing if that makes sex with your husband more fun and easy, more like you remember it.
posted by palliser at 5:29 PM on June 28, 2009 [1 favorite]
I think the first step should be to talk to your husband about limiting Trying, and seeing if that makes sex with your husband more fun and easy, more like you remember it.
posted by palliser at 5:29 PM on June 28, 2009 [1 favorite]
If you were in my position, would you do it?
It sounds like you're talking about a form of polyamory, or something close to it. At least I hope you are talking about the sort of thing where your husband knows about it and consents to it.
In my opinion, that's not something to venture into as a way of dealing with a problem in a primary relationship.
It's an emotional minefield at the best of times, and this is not the best of times for either of you. Would you still be interested in this if you had a happy sex life with your husband? If he was to agree to it, would he still agree if you had that happy sex life with him, or would he only be agreeing because he feels he has no other fair choice?
You can probably see how this has a way of magnifying the negative feelings around any existing problems in your main relationship. Especially if you and your husband aren't really good at communicating about tricky subjects, like for example, dissatisfaction with your sex life.
Instead, what I think you should do is work on the problem in your relationship with your husband and solve that. I'm not saying that you have to be having great sex with your husband, like you used to. That may not be possible.
I'm saying that you have to get to a point where you are both content with whatever sex life you have together, before you go looking to have one with anyone else. It can be a nice addition, but it isn't a solution to any problem.
posted by FishBike at 5:30 PM on June 28, 2009 [2 favorites]
It sounds like you're talking about a form of polyamory, or something close to it. At least I hope you are talking about the sort of thing where your husband knows about it and consents to it.
In my opinion, that's not something to venture into as a way of dealing with a problem in a primary relationship.
It's an emotional minefield at the best of times, and this is not the best of times for either of you. Would you still be interested in this if you had a happy sex life with your husband? If he was to agree to it, would he still agree if you had that happy sex life with him, or would he only be agreeing because he feels he has no other fair choice?
You can probably see how this has a way of magnifying the negative feelings around any existing problems in your main relationship. Especially if you and your husband aren't really good at communicating about tricky subjects, like for example, dissatisfaction with your sex life.
Instead, what I think you should do is work on the problem in your relationship with your husband and solve that. I'm not saying that you have to be having great sex with your husband, like you used to. That may not be possible.
I'm saying that you have to get to a point where you are both content with whatever sex life you have together, before you go looking to have one with anyone else. It can be a nice addition, but it isn't a solution to any problem.
posted by FishBike at 5:30 PM on June 28, 2009 [2 favorites]
You have to talk to him about this. (And by "this" I mean the whole thing - your feelings about Trying, his feelings about Trying, his feelings about sex, your feelings about sex - with him, with someone else, etc. What are his feelings about your reluctance to engage in sex because of your dread of Trying? Or have you not talked with him about that?)
By considering engaging in sex with someone else, but not talking to him, you are removing choice from him and from yourself. If you don't talk to him, and he finds out, you have hurt him dreadfully and he may decide to break up with you. If you talk to him, he will be hurt, and it will be a difficult series of conversations, but then he has the option of saying yes or no or yes, but... If he says no, then you know what choices are available to you.
Don't shortchange him or yourself. You must talk to him about this. It's not wrong or weird of you to want sex, and to have conflicted or contradictory feelings about sex with your husband. But it would be wrong to not talk to him about this. A therapist can help with the conversations - but you should start the ball rolling.
posted by rtha at 5:33 PM on June 28, 2009 [5 favorites]
By considering engaging in sex with someone else, but not talking to him, you are removing choice from him and from yourself. If you don't talk to him, and he finds out, you have hurt him dreadfully and he may decide to break up with you. If you talk to him, he will be hurt, and it will be a difficult series of conversations, but then he has the option of saying yes or no or yes, but... If he says no, then you know what choices are available to you.
Don't shortchange him or yourself. You must talk to him about this. It's not wrong or weird of you to want sex, and to have conflicted or contradictory feelings about sex with your husband. But it would be wrong to not talk to him about this. A therapist can help with the conversations - but you should start the ball rolling.
posted by rtha at 5:33 PM on June 28, 2009 [5 favorites]
I know this is not what you are looking for with your question, but why does the sex have to be about him every time? If you are so dissatisfied, and if the sex always ends up being focused on him, why not change that? What about having him use a vibrating strapon, for example?
posted by idiopath at 5:38 PM on June 28, 2009 [4 favorites]
posted by idiopath at 5:38 PM on June 28, 2009 [4 favorites]
Nthing the suggestion for counseling; putting another way, you can initiate the process now, before you cheat on him, or you can do so after you cheat on him, and he finds out, when it will be much harder to fix things. (And don't assume that your once-and-potential-friend-with-benefits won't tell, or that your husband won't find out some other way. Just look at the headlines on any random day.)
I know that it's very tempting to think that you just need to scratch that itch and then it will be as if it never happened, but it will have happened and can't unhappen, and even if he doesn't find out, do you want to look at an adulterer every time you put on your makeup?
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:38 PM on June 28, 2009 [1 favorite]
I know that it's very tempting to think that you just need to scratch that itch and then it will be as if it never happened, but it will have happened and can't unhappen, and even if he doesn't find out, do you want to look at an adulterer every time you put on your makeup?
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:38 PM on June 28, 2009 [1 favorite]
Men can come from nipple stimulation. It's generally easier for women, but yeah, it can be done. With the advent of AIDS, some gay men worked to train themselves to respond to just that. And then there's prostate stimulation, depending on where the nerve damage is. It's possible for people with some pretty serious spinal cord injuries to have orgasms.
I don't know if you've gone those other places, but if one of the primary sources of his frustration is that he's not climaxing, that's one avenue to try. I do not know what state you are in, but my guess is that you could shop around for a sex therapist who has dealt with these kinds of issues before.
Now, if that is not successful, here is where I will swim against the stream and suggest you consider things very carefully before you would broach the topic of extramarital fulfillment. Not knowing your husband, I do not know whether or not you "ought" to talk it over with him. If it's a subject of intense embarrassment for him, or shame at not "fulfilling his conjugal duties," it's entirely possible that he does not want to know if something might happen on the side. Some men would want to know, some men would not. Some men would like to be in the room, some would like to hear the details afterward, some would just like to see the glow on your face. Some might want prior approval and some might want you to pretend very hard that nothing was happening. We don't know. But you might.
That part of it boils down to "how well do you know your husband?"
posted by adipocere at 5:45 PM on June 28, 2009 [6 favorites]
I don't know if you've gone those other places, but if one of the primary sources of his frustration is that he's not climaxing, that's one avenue to try. I do not know what state you are in, but my guess is that you could shop around for a sex therapist who has dealt with these kinds of issues before.
Now, if that is not successful, here is where I will swim against the stream and suggest you consider things very carefully before you would broach the topic of extramarital fulfillment. Not knowing your husband, I do not know whether or not you "ought" to talk it over with him. If it's a subject of intense embarrassment for him, or shame at not "fulfilling his conjugal duties," it's entirely possible that he does not want to know if something might happen on the side. Some men would want to know, some men would not. Some men would like to be in the room, some would like to hear the details afterward, some would just like to see the glow on your face. Some might want prior approval and some might want you to pretend very hard that nothing was happening. We don't know. But you might.
That part of it boils down to "how well do you know your husband?"
posted by adipocere at 5:45 PM on June 28, 2009 [6 favorites]
Trying generally lasts for a couple of hours, and it is a fairly tense and often heartbreaking exercise that is of necessity focused pretty exclusively on him. He is always happy to do anything he can for me sexually, but since it does still turn him on, I afterward have the unappealing choice of either ignoring his needs or starting a round of Trying. So I don't ask.
Based on your description of him, it sounds like he's probably willing to also let you do less "Trying". You should ask him. And maybe he's OK with receiving pleasure but not achieving orgasm. You should ask him about that, too. Once you let go of making it a chore, maybe you guys will have more fun.
However, if even after you talk to him and loosen up, you still miss more conventional sex that badly, don't cheat on him. If he found out (and it sounds like it's not that easy to cover up cheating forever), it would devastate him. If I were you and wanted that kind of sex more than I wanted to stay loyal to him, I'd ask for a divorce.
posted by ignignokt at 5:54 PM on June 28, 2009 [2 favorites]
Based on your description of him, it sounds like he's probably willing to also let you do less "Trying". You should ask him. And maybe he's OK with receiving pleasure but not achieving orgasm. You should ask him about that, too. Once you let go of making it a chore, maybe you guys will have more fun.
However, if even after you talk to him and loosen up, you still miss more conventional sex that badly, don't cheat on him. If he found out (and it sounds like it's not that easy to cover up cheating forever), it would devastate him. If I were you and wanted that kind of sex more than I wanted to stay loyal to him, I'd ask for a divorce.
posted by ignignokt at 5:54 PM on June 28, 2009 [2 favorites]
If there's nothing that can be done sexually for him, then nothing can be done. Humans have needs, sexual needs. I completely understand your desire to have fun and easy sex. I think the problem here is not that you have fantasies about it, but that you're actually contemplating doing this behind your husband's back. You have it all planned out in your head on who you want to do it with and when you'll do it.
If there is really nothing that can be done, you should just be honest with your husband and tell him you have sexual needs. It might hurt him, he might freak out over the idea at first, but maybe he'll come to understand it.
It's a tricky situation. But I think the important thing in this whole situation is BE HONEST. Don't hurt him. How would you like it if the situation was reversed and he went behind your back and was sleeping with someone else?
posted by joni. at 5:55 PM on June 28, 2009 [1 favorite]
If there is really nothing that can be done, you should just be honest with your husband and tell him you have sexual needs. It might hurt him, he might freak out over the idea at first, but maybe he'll come to understand it.
It's a tricky situation. But I think the important thing in this whole situation is BE HONEST. Don't hurt him. How would you like it if the situation was reversed and he went behind your back and was sleeping with someone else?
posted by joni. at 5:55 PM on June 28, 2009 [1 favorite]
Anon, I'm going to approach this from another perspective. A perspective of why sex might be harder for your husband than simply a lack of enough nerve ending to achieve orgasm quickly and easily.
To many men in long term relationships, sex is about as big an expression of love as we can muster. We make love to our woman not only because it's fun and it feels great but because we want to show them how much we love them. We want to pleasure them and make them feel great because we love them. We have orgasms because of how great our woman make us feel.
Now imagine that there is some kind of physical reason that makes sex more difficult. For some men, it might be that they are obese, so physical exertion is difficult. In others it might be an inability to gain an erection. For your husband, it's a lack of enough nerve endings to reach orgasm quickly and easily.
In your question you express your displeasure at Trying and the effort that involves. I suspect that your husband has picked up on this and knows that sex for you with him is something of a chore. And so when it's time for sex, he starts to worry that he's going to dissapoint you again. And this worry, this psychological turn-off, starts actively working against his ability to achieve orgasm. Combined with the physical issues he experiences, the psychological issues he might be experiencing make for a lethal brew for his orgasm.
Ask yourself if you give off any signs that he might be picking up on. Do you groan, or tsk, or sigh when Trying starts? Or perhaps once Trying is over and he hasn't been able to orgasm, how do you react is similar ways? To be honest though, speaking as a guy, even if you were as lovely as pie and reassured him that it's all OK and there's always next time, that would still stress me out.
And it would stress me out because if I knew the woman I love was unhappy with our sex life, I'd be worried that she'd start contemplating the very sort of thing you're contemplating, namely, getting it elsewhere.
So in answer to what is your fundamental question "If you were in my position, would you do it?" I'd say no and you should not either, especially if you love him as much as you say you do. Here's all the reasons why.
1. You say he's handling a deeply painful disability with more grace and patience than you would have thought possible. If you cheat and he finds out, and he will, how will your reasons effect him psychologically? How will it affect his dealing with his disability? Think about that for a moment.
2. Even if you do discuss it with him, how do you approach this without destroying him? "Honey, I love you but our sex life is horrible and I have a friend I'd like to hook up with, with your permission, while you're travelling on business supporting our family?"
3. Even if you do manage to convince him to let you get sex somewhere else, and he gives his permission, I suspect the long term consequences for your marriage will be disastrous.
It might seem trite to mention it but honestly, the best relationship advice I ever got was from a very wise T-Rex who said "Let's say you have a problem with your partner. THAT SUCKS. But you two should talk about it, and if you can't reach a solution, resolution or compromise that's mutually satisfying and that you both believe will be acceptably implemented, then you should break up. Your relationship problem TOTALLY SOLVED??"
And it's true here. Talk about your problem with your husband, figure out how you two can fix the problem without you getting sex somewhere else (and don't kid yourself, there are ways to do this beyond cheating). Ask him frankly if there are psychological reasons like those I mentioned above that might be affecting him (he may not have told you about this). And if you can't reach a solution, resolution or compromise that's mutually satisfying and that you both believe will be acceptably implemented, then perhaps a mutual, friendly seperation is the answer. Then you can both get on with your lives, possibly even remaining friends, without the horror and recriminations that cheating and betrayal within a sexless marriage would eventuate in.
posted by Effigy2000 at 6:00 PM on June 28, 2009 [25 favorites]
To many men in long term relationships, sex is about as big an expression of love as we can muster. We make love to our woman not only because it's fun and it feels great but because we want to show them how much we love them. We want to pleasure them and make them feel great because we love them. We have orgasms because of how great our woman make us feel.
Now imagine that there is some kind of physical reason that makes sex more difficult. For some men, it might be that they are obese, so physical exertion is difficult. In others it might be an inability to gain an erection. For your husband, it's a lack of enough nerve endings to reach orgasm quickly and easily.
In your question you express your displeasure at Trying and the effort that involves. I suspect that your husband has picked up on this and knows that sex for you with him is something of a chore. And so when it's time for sex, he starts to worry that he's going to dissapoint you again. And this worry, this psychological turn-off, starts actively working against his ability to achieve orgasm. Combined with the physical issues he experiences, the psychological issues he might be experiencing make for a lethal brew for his orgasm.
Ask yourself if you give off any signs that he might be picking up on. Do you groan, or tsk, or sigh when Trying starts? Or perhaps once Trying is over and he hasn't been able to orgasm, how do you react is similar ways? To be honest though, speaking as a guy, even if you were as lovely as pie and reassured him that it's all OK and there's always next time, that would still stress me out.
And it would stress me out because if I knew the woman I love was unhappy with our sex life, I'd be worried that she'd start contemplating the very sort of thing you're contemplating, namely, getting it elsewhere.
So in answer to what is your fundamental question "If you were in my position, would you do it?" I'd say no and you should not either, especially if you love him as much as you say you do. Here's all the reasons why.
1. You say he's handling a deeply painful disability with more grace and patience than you would have thought possible. If you cheat and he finds out, and he will, how will your reasons effect him psychologically? How will it affect his dealing with his disability? Think about that for a moment.
2. Even if you do discuss it with him, how do you approach this without destroying him? "Honey, I love you but our sex life is horrible and I have a friend I'd like to hook up with, with your permission, while you're travelling on business supporting our family?"
3. Even if you do manage to convince him to let you get sex somewhere else, and he gives his permission, I suspect the long term consequences for your marriage will be disastrous.
It might seem trite to mention it but honestly, the best relationship advice I ever got was from a very wise T-Rex who said "Let's say you have a problem with your partner. THAT SUCKS. But you two should talk about it, and if you can't reach a solution, resolution or compromise that's mutually satisfying and that you both believe will be acceptably implemented, then you should break up. Your relationship problem TOTALLY SOLVED??"
And it's true here. Talk about your problem with your husband, figure out how you two can fix the problem without you getting sex somewhere else (and don't kid yourself, there are ways to do this beyond cheating). Ask him frankly if there are psychological reasons like those I mentioned above that might be affecting him (he may not have told you about this). And if you can't reach a solution, resolution or compromise that's mutually satisfying and that you both believe will be acceptably implemented, then perhaps a mutual, friendly seperation is the answer. Then you can both get on with your lives, possibly even remaining friends, without the horror and recriminations that cheating and betrayal within a sexless marriage would eventuate in.
posted by Effigy2000 at 6:00 PM on June 28, 2009 [25 favorites]
I think a sex therapist is in order FIRST even before a couples counselor. I'd say to go see one by yourself first and say what you're thinking before you try this out on your husband.
I really feel for you. This might, however, just be a "there's no way to solve this happily" situation. As someone else said, I don't think once a year is gonna do it for you if you open that box and sleep with someone/cheat. There's no Dan Savage Loophole here because your husband (a) did not voluntarily cut you off from a sex life and say "Tough noogies, I don't want any again ever and you're just going to have to shut it" and (b) he's not so incapacitated physically/mentally not to be able to object. Husband WANTS TO, he just can't without hours of Trying. And to be realistic, bringing this up with him about wanting to get sex from someone who can is probably going to be another kick to his already-smashed balls, unless he's a super-enlightened hippie sort. Hence why I say talk about this with a sex therapist even before you bring him in to see one. This is going to be very, very, very hard to do if you are determined to get sex somehow.
But I think we really need to know: how do you think he'd react to this? And is he missing the Trying when you don't do it?
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:07 PM on June 28, 2009 [6 favorites]
I really feel for you. This might, however, just be a "there's no way to solve this happily" situation. As someone else said, I don't think once a year is gonna do it for you if you open that box and sleep with someone/cheat. There's no Dan Savage Loophole here because your husband (a) did not voluntarily cut you off from a sex life and say "Tough noogies, I don't want any again ever and you're just going to have to shut it" and (b) he's not so incapacitated physically/mentally not to be able to object. Husband WANTS TO, he just can't without hours of Trying. And to be realistic, bringing this up with him about wanting to get sex from someone who can is probably going to be another kick to his already-smashed balls, unless he's a super-enlightened hippie sort. Hence why I say talk about this with a sex therapist even before you bring him in to see one. This is going to be very, very, very hard to do if you are determined to get sex somehow.
But I think we really need to know: how do you think he'd react to this? And is he missing the Trying when you don't do it?
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:07 PM on June 28, 2009 [6 favorites]
Can we stop with the "sickness and health" stuff? Not everybody gets married for the same reasons with the same vows.
posted by milarepa at 6:14 PM on June 28, 2009 [6 favorites]
posted by milarepa at 6:14 PM on June 28, 2009 [6 favorites]
It's my experience that very few people can separate the physical aspect and the emotional aspect of sex, so if you follow through, consider the future possibility of divorce.
posted by davcoo at 6:24 PM on June 28, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by davcoo at 6:24 PM on June 28, 2009 [1 favorite]
SEX THERAPIST! Please consider seeing a sex therapist, as s/he will be able to help not only with the emotional and psychological components of this situation, but the actual physical sex part, as well. This is precisely the type of situation that sex therapists are trained and experienced in. Here is a directory of sex therapists that may be useful, since we don't know where you live: http://www.aasect.org/directory.asp. If you feel comfortable, please don't hesitate to MeMail me for other potential resources in your specific location.
posted by so_gracefully at 6:28 PM on June 28, 2009
posted by so_gracefully at 6:28 PM on June 28, 2009
Do I really have to say goodbye to all that, so soon?
No, you don't.
I'm going to go against what most other people here are saying and offer the opinion that it's OK to do this just for yourself, outside your marriage. This isn't a threat to your marriage, and I'm really not sure that subsuming your sexuality to fidelity is really worth it.
Having said that, I don't actually place a particularly high value on fidelity in all of the various ingredients that make a marriage work, so my view is weighted.
posted by DarlingBri at 6:29 PM on June 28, 2009 [1 favorite]
No, you don't.
I'm going to go against what most other people here are saying and offer the opinion that it's OK to do this just for yourself, outside your marriage. This isn't a threat to your marriage, and I'm really not sure that subsuming your sexuality to fidelity is really worth it.
Having said that, I don't actually place a particularly high value on fidelity in all of the various ingredients that make a marriage work, so my view is weighted.
posted by DarlingBri at 6:29 PM on June 28, 2009 [1 favorite]
He's habitually unattached -- so I wouldn't be infringing on a wife or a girlfriend -- and he's fond enough of me that he would never do anything to hurt me or jeopardize my marriage. (Although he's not fond enough of me to get hurt. We were friends with benefits back before the phrase was invented, but there's no greater spark between us.)
I would not count on this ... especially as a permanence.
posted by jgirl at 6:31 PM on June 28, 2009
I would not count on this ... especially as a permanence.
posted by jgirl at 6:31 PM on June 28, 2009
I know people who have very happy, multi-decade open or polyamorous marriages where that choice of relationship structure is largely motivated by one partner's physical inability to have sex. So don't discard that as a possibility: Tristan Taormino's book Opening Up is the current gold standard here.
But, yeah, you guys really need to see a counselor who specializes in sexuality and perhaps another counselor who specializes in renegotiating arrangements and expectations in marriages after unexpected life events or reversals. Best of luck to you both.
posted by Sidhedevil at 6:33 PM on June 28, 2009 [1 favorite]
But, yeah, you guys really need to see a counselor who specializes in sexuality and perhaps another counselor who specializes in renegotiating arrangements and expectations in marriages after unexpected life events or reversals. Best of luck to you both.
posted by Sidhedevil at 6:33 PM on June 28, 2009 [1 favorite]
Did you and your husband intend to make a lifelong commitment? Did that commitment include lifetime monogamy? Did it include in sickness and in health? I ask these things because most answers here are assuming you entered into marriage with those sort of commitments in mind. If you didn't, well, do whatever you agreed to do in the first place. But if you made the commitment that most of us have in mind when you talk about marriage, then you should be faithful, no matter how difficult it is.
I think you're in a tough situation. I wouldn't envy being you, but I'd like to think I'd stay faithful if I were in your shoes. And if I were your husband, I'd rather get divorced then have you sneaking around behind my back getting your urges satisfied elsewhere.
posted by Happydaz at 6:34 PM on June 28, 2009 [1 favorite]
I think you're in a tough situation. I wouldn't envy being you, but I'd like to think I'd stay faithful if I were in your shoes. And if I were your husband, I'd rather get divorced then have you sneaking around behind my back getting your urges satisfied elsewhere.
posted by Happydaz at 6:34 PM on June 28, 2009 [1 favorite]
I'm going to go against what most other people here are saying and offer the opinion that it's OK to do this just for yourself, outside your marriage. This isn't a threat to your marriage
It almost certainly will be if she lies about it, rather than negotiating a new agreement. I think people almost always find out about illicit extramarital sex--it isn't a chance I would want to take, and I've been polyamorous for most of my life (though my current marriage is monogamous).
In any case, I think counseling would be a much better first choice than an affair.
posted by Sidhedevil at 6:36 PM on June 28, 2009 [1 favorite]
It almost certainly will be if she lies about it, rather than negotiating a new agreement. I think people almost always find out about illicit extramarital sex--it isn't a chance I would want to take, and I've been polyamorous for most of my life (though my current marriage is monogamous).
In any case, I think counseling would be a much better first choice than an affair.
posted by Sidhedevil at 6:36 PM on June 28, 2009 [1 favorite]
Nthing what has been said before. It's 'for better or for worse, in sickness and in health'. You MUST consider that. You need to be open about this with your husband. If he willingly, and wholeheartedly consents, then so be it, pursue what you will. If he is uncomfortable or at all uneasy about the situation, then drop it. A marriage is more than just physical satisfaction.
posted by greta simone at 6:38 PM on June 28, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by greta simone at 6:38 PM on June 28, 2009 [1 favorite]
I think other partners is a reasonable option. But you might check other options more throughly first, given you're own worries. Example : How would your husband respond to your asking about other partner? Would he first volunteer that you don't need to "try" every time? If so, you might ask for that first. So then you'll feel better when you get around to either asking about and/or doing with others. Ask Savage Love too.
posted by jeffburdges at 6:44 PM on June 28, 2009
posted by jeffburdges at 6:44 PM on June 28, 2009
Coming back to state what all of a sudden is pretty obvious.
He's able to bring you to orgasm. The trouble is with you pleasuring HIM.
It's turned into a chore.
You having an affair doesn't change that fact, as I assume if you don't ever approach him for sex again he will NOTICE.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 6:48 PM on June 28, 2009 [9 favorites]
He's able to bring you to orgasm. The trouble is with you pleasuring HIM.
It's turned into a chore.
You having an affair doesn't change that fact, as I assume if you don't ever approach him for sex again he will NOTICE.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 6:48 PM on June 28, 2009 [9 favorites]
I know people who have very happy, multi-decade open or polyamorous marriages where that choice of relationship structure is largely motivated by one partner's physical inability to have sex. So don't discard that as a possibility: Tristan Taormino's book Opening Up is the current gold standard here.
Yes, and just to expand on my earlier comment: I don't think this sort of thing works when one or both partners are still angry, disappointed, upset, etc., over the one partner's physical inability. I think this only works when both partners are at peace with their existing relationship and sex life and have accepted any limitations like this that exist. Getting to that point, on their own or with help from a therapist or counselor, should be the next step.
I am actually not sure if the OP was asking about an open relationship, or just getting involved with someone else without her husband's knowledge. If it's the latter then take all the negative feelings created by trying to start having an open relationship when the primary relationship is already on shaky ground, and multiply those problems by 1000 when the husband eventually finds out about this.
posted by FishBike at 6:53 PM on June 28, 2009
Yes, and just to expand on my earlier comment: I don't think this sort of thing works when one or both partners are still angry, disappointed, upset, etc., over the one partner's physical inability. I think this only works when both partners are at peace with their existing relationship and sex life and have accepted any limitations like this that exist. Getting to that point, on their own or with help from a therapist or counselor, should be the next step.
I am actually not sure if the OP was asking about an open relationship, or just getting involved with someone else without her husband's knowledge. If it's the latter then take all the negative feelings created by trying to start having an open relationship when the primary relationship is already on shaky ground, and multiply those problems by 1000 when the husband eventually finds out about this.
posted by FishBike at 6:53 PM on June 28, 2009
What an unfortunate situation, I'm sorry you're facing this.
Nobody can tell you whether or not you should look outside the marriage for sex, and I'm not sure anyone can say with certainty what they'd do in the situation. Not faced with it, it's easy to say they'd never or they would. I also suspect many people who would say they'd do it, or have done in that situation, wouldn't actually admit it publicly for much the same reason that you elected to post this anon. So, you have to weigh all the answers you're getting against that reality.
Since I don't have an answer for you, I'll give you two questions for you to ponder:
1. Let's say he decides to end the marriage. Either you ask him ahead of time, and it's more than he can stand and he decides the marriage is over, or you don't tell him and he finds out. You can not guarantee your husband won't find out. Even if you leave no obvious trace, his injury-induced insecurity alone could make him suspicious and do something crazy like install a keylogger on your computer or a call tracer on your cell phone. Or he could not be suspicious at all and it could be something as simple as injuring yourself during some kind of wild, gymnastic sex, or passing out during sex, or something you couldn't have predicted happening lands you in the hospital, and you're brought in by your friend. So, one way or another, extra-marital sex is a deal breaker for him, whether it's just the idea of you contemplating it or after you've done it. Which is easier to consider living without? Him or sex? I'm not asking in a "gotcha" sort of way, I'm not trying to imply that the answer to this question is also the answer to whether or not you should do it, the question is just to help you consider it from all angles.
2. Are you thinking that sex outside of your marriage will keep you from having to go through Trying, or are you saying that you can deal with Trying if you also had a more functional sexual outlet? If it's the latter, sounds like at the very least, it won't be damaging to your marriage, might even improve it somewhat if you approached Trying from a less frustrated angle. So if it's the latter, you might as well skip to the next comment. If it is the former, you might want to reconsider. As frustrating as sex is for you and your husband, he's probably going to be confused and have a whole range of emotions if you suddenly stop wanting to have any sexual relations with him at all. Despite his lack of functionality, nothing at all might be worse for your marriage than what you presently have. So, bonus question, if you initially thought the friend with benefits was going to get you out of having to go through the Trying, and you've reconsidered, will sex with the friend be as satisfying if you know you'll still have to go through the frustrated trying process?
posted by necessitas at 6:53 PM on June 28, 2009
Nobody can tell you whether or not you should look outside the marriage for sex, and I'm not sure anyone can say with certainty what they'd do in the situation. Not faced with it, it's easy to say they'd never or they would. I also suspect many people who would say they'd do it, or have done in that situation, wouldn't actually admit it publicly for much the same reason that you elected to post this anon. So, you have to weigh all the answers you're getting against that reality.
Since I don't have an answer for you, I'll give you two questions for you to ponder:
1. Let's say he decides to end the marriage. Either you ask him ahead of time, and it's more than he can stand and he decides the marriage is over, or you don't tell him and he finds out. You can not guarantee your husband won't find out. Even if you leave no obvious trace, his injury-induced insecurity alone could make him suspicious and do something crazy like install a keylogger on your computer or a call tracer on your cell phone. Or he could not be suspicious at all and it could be something as simple as injuring yourself during some kind of wild, gymnastic sex, or passing out during sex, or something you couldn't have predicted happening lands you in the hospital, and you're brought in by your friend. So, one way or another, extra-marital sex is a deal breaker for him, whether it's just the idea of you contemplating it or after you've done it. Which is easier to consider living without? Him or sex? I'm not asking in a "gotcha" sort of way, I'm not trying to imply that the answer to this question is also the answer to whether or not you should do it, the question is just to help you consider it from all angles.
2. Are you thinking that sex outside of your marriage will keep you from having to go through Trying, or are you saying that you can deal with Trying if you also had a more functional sexual outlet? If it's the latter, sounds like at the very least, it won't be damaging to your marriage, might even improve it somewhat if you approached Trying from a less frustrated angle. So if it's the latter, you might as well skip to the next comment. If it is the former, you might want to reconsider. As frustrating as sex is for you and your husband, he's probably going to be confused and have a whole range of emotions if you suddenly stop wanting to have any sexual relations with him at all. Despite his lack of functionality, nothing at all might be worse for your marriage than what you presently have. So, bonus question, if you initially thought the friend with benefits was going to get you out of having to go through the Trying, and you've reconsidered, will sex with the friend be as satisfying if you know you'll still have to go through the frustrated trying process?
posted by necessitas at 6:53 PM on June 28, 2009
Sex, sex, sex. Too much, too little - it's so often a problem. Movies, television, advertising, music, etc. has everybody believing sex is the end-all and be-all and if we're not all fucking like bunnies something is wrong. Talk to your husband. Talk with a therapist. Talk to yourself. But don't turn this all into a personal episode of The Jerry Springer Show. I have less understanding with you and your deceptive idea to get it on the side than a lot of the posters above - all in a selfish need to have "better" sex. Get some help, but realize you have turned sex into something so monolithic in your relationship that the ultimate issue may not be with your husband at all - but with you.
posted by Gerard Sorme at 6:56 PM on June 28, 2009 [4 favorites]
posted by Gerard Sorme at 6:56 PM on June 28, 2009 [4 favorites]
I don't have much to say on the specific sex issue, but I think it's really important to point something out about a lot of the answers here.
People (on AskMe and in the rest of life) are incredibly keen to try to think about ethical questions in terms of rules – ie., that there is some rule out there, waiting to be discovered, that will dictate how you should proceed. As you can see, for a lot of people, "treat your wedding vows as an unbreakable contract" is the rule. For others, it's "always be fully honest with your spouse". But you can imagine other rules that would point in the opposite direction — eg., "you ultimately have a right to sexual satisfaction and must respect that right." (Paging Zambrano!)
But here's the thing: I don't think real ethics in real life works according to any such rules. It's a question of context and subtle judgments based on your knowledge of yourself and your husband. Telling him might hurt him terribly, or it might take your relationship to a new level of openness and honesty. Pursuing this thing with your old friend in secret might make you a better partner to your husband, or it might lead you to give off the subtle signals that would let your husband know something wasn't right, hurting him worse than if you'd discussed it upfront. You might be able to stay unattached to your friend, or you might not. Etcetera.
It's absurd to imagine that "obey your wedding vows always" or any other rule is a magic answer, universally applicable to every context: life is details and nuance, and rules, by definition, are blunt instruments. But the huge hazard with this is that once you see there are no rules, it's incredibly difficult to resist reaching the conclusion that is most self-serving to yourself. So the fact that there are no rules doesn't mean "go for it". "Do what you feel" is a rule, too, and just as problematic as all the others.
posted by game warden to the events rhino at 6:56 PM on June 28, 2009 [15 favorites]
People (on AskMe and in the rest of life) are incredibly keen to try to think about ethical questions in terms of rules – ie., that there is some rule out there, waiting to be discovered, that will dictate how you should proceed. As you can see, for a lot of people, "treat your wedding vows as an unbreakable contract" is the rule. For others, it's "always be fully honest with your spouse". But you can imagine other rules that would point in the opposite direction — eg., "you ultimately have a right to sexual satisfaction and must respect that right." (Paging Zambrano!)
But here's the thing: I don't think real ethics in real life works according to any such rules. It's a question of context and subtle judgments based on your knowledge of yourself and your husband. Telling him might hurt him terribly, or it might take your relationship to a new level of openness and honesty. Pursuing this thing with your old friend in secret might make you a better partner to your husband, or it might lead you to give off the subtle signals that would let your husband know something wasn't right, hurting him worse than if you'd discussed it upfront. You might be able to stay unattached to your friend, or you might not. Etcetera.
It's absurd to imagine that "obey your wedding vows always" or any other rule is a magic answer, universally applicable to every context: life is details and nuance, and rules, by definition, are blunt instruments. But the huge hazard with this is that once you see there are no rules, it's incredibly difficult to resist reaching the conclusion that is most self-serving to yourself. So the fact that there are no rules doesn't mean "go for it". "Do what you feel" is a rule, too, and just as problematic as all the others.
posted by game warden to the events rhino at 6:56 PM on June 28, 2009 [15 favorites]
A wise person once told me:
posted by whycurious at 6:56 PM on June 28, 2009 [12 favorites]
"You're an adult now. In an adult relationship. So you must treat it as such. Have that conversation that will be so horrible you can't wait until it's over. Pull off those fuzzy boxing gloves we use while adolescents and be genuinely, brutally, honest. We all grow up one day. And we all need to talk to those closest to us about the most painful of subjects. Don't hold back. Be an adult. And let the other party be an adult too."You are in that position now. Talk to him.
posted by whycurious at 6:56 PM on June 28, 2009 [12 favorites]
You guys aren't having any fun in bed. You seemed to believe that if he is aroused then you have to try to get him to orgasim each and every time. I agree with those who suggest a sex therapist but in the meanwhile here are two suggestions. First agree with your husband that there will be some times (maybe once a week) when the focus will be just on you - relax and let him give you pleasure without worrying about him. Other, distinctly different times, you focus on him, let him give you feedback on what he is enjoying.
Second, talk with him about what is a good finish for him. Trying for hours until you both give up (with a success only a few times a year) has got be frustrating for both of you. Maybe sometimes when he is aroused, he would rather have you help him relax, calm down and end up just holding each with love and feeling good about the relationship. Or maybe, you can discover ways to give him satisfaction that don't necessarily require organism for him be happy. In other words be more creative in finding ways to have sexual pleasure together without Trying to make him come every time. (Not say you shouldn't try some times, but don't do it as often, take the pressure off of both of you so you can enjoy trying when you do.)
posted by metahawk at 7:20 PM on June 28, 2009 [3 favorites]
Second, talk with him about what is a good finish for him. Trying for hours until you both give up (with a success only a few times a year) has got be frustrating for both of you. Maybe sometimes when he is aroused, he would rather have you help him relax, calm down and end up just holding each with love and feeling good about the relationship. Or maybe, you can discover ways to give him satisfaction that don't necessarily require organism for him be happy. In other words be more creative in finding ways to have sexual pleasure together without Trying to make him come every time. (Not say you shouldn't try some times, but don't do it as often, take the pressure off of both of you so you can enjoy trying when you do.)
posted by metahawk at 7:20 PM on June 28, 2009 [3 favorites]
From your words, the depth of thought and feeling, if you pursue the friend without being honest with your husband (a huge lie of omission), I reckon you'd find that the not-good feelings would outweigh the moments of physical pleasure.
And if you do it as a lie (of omission) to your husband and he finds out... .
posted by ambient2 at 7:59 PM on June 28, 2009
And if you do it as a lie (of omission) to your husband and he finds out... .
posted by ambient2 at 7:59 PM on June 28, 2009
"Sickness" doesn't refer just to head colds, and it refers to things a lot more devastating than missing "fun, easy sexy sex." Sickness is not fun. That's why we vow to stay faithful when it happens. Perhaps you didn't take that vow, or both only meant "as long as the sex is fun." If so, go on and do whatever you want. But if that were the case you wouldn't be asking the question, would you?
posted by HotToddy at 8:09 PM on June 28, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by HotToddy at 8:09 PM on June 28, 2009 [2 favorites]
Sine you mentioned that ED drugs help slightly, I want to point out that they can be used in higher-than-recommended doses. Levitra, for example, has a 20mg/24 hours recommended maximum dose, and I use 80mg. (My doctor didn't recommend this dose, but said that he would prescribe 40mg without concern.) And no, priapism isn't a problem; I was told by my doctor that they put that warning on them to discourage recreational use. Not sure if that's true, but it's interesting nonetheless.
posted by trevyn at 8:22 PM on June 28, 2009
posted by trevyn at 8:22 PM on June 28, 2009
Blatantly obvious, but...maybe it's time to become less goal-oriented about sex. Get to it with the explicit presumption that orgasm won't happen. Just play.
Nthing the sex therapist recommendation. Talk to him, and get some help, before you do something that might spell the end of your marriage.
posted by Hildegarde at 8:31 PM on June 28, 2009
Nthing the sex therapist recommendation. Talk to him, and get some help, before you do something that might spell the end of your marriage.
posted by Hildegarde at 8:31 PM on June 28, 2009
You two have some good work you can do before you can talk about opening up the relationship. You still have an situation where you're trying to have a sexual relationship...you have a lot of options that are more pleasurable than turning it into a frustrating chore. Seek a sex therapist. Or if that's not an option, explore intimacy with modified endpoints.
I'm pretty seriously openly pro-poly, pro-open relationships when entered into honestly. (I can't much condone a secret affair.) But your situation, from how you've described it, could maybe be enhanced; this doesn't preclude a discussion of you seeking outside sexual partners btw. But it needn't be an either/or.
posted by desuetude at 8:51 PM on June 28, 2009 [1 favorite]
I'm pretty seriously openly pro-poly, pro-open relationships when entered into honestly. (I can't much condone a secret affair.) But your situation, from how you've described it, could maybe be enhanced; this doesn't preclude a discussion of you seeking outside sexual partners btw. But it needn't be an either/or.
posted by desuetude at 8:51 PM on June 28, 2009 [1 favorite]
Don't take it from me, or from MeFi - call Dan Savage.
In case you don't know who he is, he writes a widely syndicated relationship and sex advice column called Savage Love. I've recently become addicted to the podcast version, which he calls The Savage Lovecast. I prefer the podcast to the column because you hear the voicemails people leave him asking for advice, and then he usually calls them back so you get to hear him ask questions and discuss it with the person.
Listen to an episode or two, or three, and see what you think of his takes on people's sexual problems and the advice he gives. I personally tend to think his advice is dead on about 90% of the time, and when I do disagree it's usually only in part. But that's me. If you become taken with it like I have, call him and ask his advice on the voicemail - the number is (206) 201-2720. Or if you're more of a text-format person, email him and maybe he'll answer you in the column; the columns do tend to be a lot more brief, though.
Seriously, ask Dan. Your situation is really really tough, and his ability to handle questions about really really tough situations is the main reason his podcast has become so popular.
Best of luck to you.
posted by JustDerek at 9:16 PM on June 28, 2009 [3 favorites]
In case you don't know who he is, he writes a widely syndicated relationship and sex advice column called Savage Love. I've recently become addicted to the podcast version, which he calls The Savage Lovecast. I prefer the podcast to the column because you hear the voicemails people leave him asking for advice, and then he usually calls them back so you get to hear him ask questions and discuss it with the person.
Listen to an episode or two, or three, and see what you think of his takes on people's sexual problems and the advice he gives. I personally tend to think his advice is dead on about 90% of the time, and when I do disagree it's usually only in part. But that's me. If you become taken with it like I have, call him and ask his advice on the voicemail - the number is (206) 201-2720. Or if you're more of a text-format person, email him and maybe he'll answer you in the column; the columns do tend to be a lot more brief, though.
Seriously, ask Dan. Your situation is really really tough, and his ability to handle questions about really really tough situations is the main reason his podcast has become so popular.
Best of luck to you.
posted by JustDerek at 9:16 PM on June 28, 2009 [3 favorites]
You should go for it, and he needs the same thing. He needs some sort of sex therapist that can help him Try. You should be able to get fulfillment as well.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 9:32 PM on June 28, 2009
posted by JohnnyGunn at 9:32 PM on June 28, 2009
I think asking him would potentially be the beginning of the end of your marriage. You're asking for his blessing for you to be unfaithful to him, to engage in an act of love with another man. It seems a little tacky.
Is there any reason why you can't just masturbate?
posted by jayder at 10:30 PM on June 28, 2009 [1 favorite]
Is there any reason why you can't just masturbate?
posted by jayder at 10:30 PM on June 28, 2009 [1 favorite]
I guess a better way to put it is this: He has a disability. Since you are life partners -- spouses -- you should consider his disability, your disability.
Your attitude seems to be that it is too bad that he can't have fulfilling sex, but you'll be damned if that prevents you from having an active sex life.
It seems that, by entering into an affair, you will not be shouldering your part of this shared burden that has fallen upon the both of you -- the burden of his disability. You will be letting him suffer and bear it alone, while you slip away to have the sexual pleasure no longer available to him.
It does not seem that that is what marriage is about.
posted by jayder at 10:33 PM on June 28, 2009 [5 favorites]
Your attitude seems to be that it is too bad that he can't have fulfilling sex, but you'll be damned if that prevents you from having an active sex life.
It seems that, by entering into an affair, you will not be shouldering your part of this shared burden that has fallen upon the both of you -- the burden of his disability. You will be letting him suffer and bear it alone, while you slip away to have the sexual pleasure no longer available to him.
It does not seem that that is what marriage is about.
posted by jayder at 10:33 PM on June 28, 2009 [5 favorites]
I can't tell you whether or not either you or your husband should look outside your marriage for sex. I can say that you better come to an agreement with him about it first. Doing it on the side is no different than a guy cheating because his wife won't put out enough. Except worse because he's doing everything he can to please you, it's just he has a serious disability.
So sex outside your marriage may or may not be a good idea. Sex outside your marriage on the sly definitely isn't, and don't kid yourself into thinking it's no big deal, won't mean anything, and can't hurt anyone. This is something you really, really, really need to talk about first.
posted by Justinian at 10:34 PM on June 28, 2009
So sex outside your marriage may or may not be a good idea. Sex outside your marriage on the sly definitely isn't, and don't kid yourself into thinking it's no big deal, won't mean anything, and can't hurt anyone. This is something you really, really, really need to talk about first.
posted by Justinian at 10:34 PM on June 28, 2009
I think there are a few reasons here why honesty is unlikely to be a good idea in this situation:
1) It really doesn't matter how sensitive, caring and loving you are, it will be extremely painful for him to hear how unhappy and unsatisfied you are. and
2) It is unlikely he will happily allow you to go outside the marriage. You wouldn't be asking this question if you thought he would be ok about opening up the marriage. Best case scenario he agrees to it because he feels extremely guilty about failing you sexually and is worried that if he doesn't agree you will leave him eventually. This isn't even the type of situation where he might come around and see the up side of it, because there is no up side for him. He literally can't cheat on you (well maybe he can technically, but it's unlikely to be satisfying or something he even wants). I actually think it would be selfish to try and get him to agree to this unless you think he would be doing it for any other reason than to make you happy.
Honesty makes sense when there is something the other person can do. Even if that something is painful or hard for the person. Here there is nothing he can do. You two have tried very hard to do the best you can with the situation you have been given. It doesn't sound like he has resisted trying anything medically nor has he shut down all together sexually. You both have done everything right, but some problems have no solutions. Sure try therapy, sex therapy, it doesn't sound like either is going to make his nerve endings grow back or make him respond sexually in a way you desire.
I feel a lot of people on here are trying to make a physical problem psychological. Questions and complaints about a partner's lack of a sex drive are often on askme. A low sex drive can be a mixture of both the physical and psychological. This is not your situation. Your husband was injured and overnight your sex life changed drastically. A lot of feelings have come about because of his nerve damage, but his nerve damage and resulting loss of your sex life were not caused by either of your feelings. It is also quite normal that you still want sex, it would be abnormal if your sense of love and empathy towards your husband killed your sex drive. I don’t think you should feel guilty for this.
Very occasionally going outside your marriage for sex may not earn you a sainthood, but it appears to be the only option that allows you to not give up on enjoyable sex for the rest of your life, not hurt your husband, and keep an otherwise happy marriage together. It's an imperfect solution to a messy and unfair situation. There is some risk involved. It's your job to minimize this risk. This can only be done by being extremely careful and doing it max a couple of times a year. You seem to understand this.
I also fear that if you don't resolve this one way or another it will slowly eat away at your marriage. Even if you don't resent him, you'll be unhappy. I don't think that you sucking it up and just dealing will be good for you or your marriage. Maybe I'm just giving you a self serving rationalization, but involuntarily sexless marriages rarely turn out well.
posted by whoaali at 11:05 PM on June 28, 2009 [7 favorites]
1) It really doesn't matter how sensitive, caring and loving you are, it will be extremely painful for him to hear how unhappy and unsatisfied you are. and
2) It is unlikely he will happily allow you to go outside the marriage. You wouldn't be asking this question if you thought he would be ok about opening up the marriage. Best case scenario he agrees to it because he feels extremely guilty about failing you sexually and is worried that if he doesn't agree you will leave him eventually. This isn't even the type of situation where he might come around and see the up side of it, because there is no up side for him. He literally can't cheat on you (well maybe he can technically, but it's unlikely to be satisfying or something he even wants). I actually think it would be selfish to try and get him to agree to this unless you think he would be doing it for any other reason than to make you happy.
Honesty makes sense when there is something the other person can do. Even if that something is painful or hard for the person. Here there is nothing he can do. You two have tried very hard to do the best you can with the situation you have been given. It doesn't sound like he has resisted trying anything medically nor has he shut down all together sexually. You both have done everything right, but some problems have no solutions. Sure try therapy, sex therapy, it doesn't sound like either is going to make his nerve endings grow back or make him respond sexually in a way you desire.
I feel a lot of people on here are trying to make a physical problem psychological. Questions and complaints about a partner's lack of a sex drive are often on askme. A low sex drive can be a mixture of both the physical and psychological. This is not your situation. Your husband was injured and overnight your sex life changed drastically. A lot of feelings have come about because of his nerve damage, but his nerve damage and resulting loss of your sex life were not caused by either of your feelings. It is also quite normal that you still want sex, it would be abnormal if your sense of love and empathy towards your husband killed your sex drive. I don’t think you should feel guilty for this.
Very occasionally going outside your marriage for sex may not earn you a sainthood, but it appears to be the only option that allows you to not give up on enjoyable sex for the rest of your life, not hurt your husband, and keep an otherwise happy marriage together. It's an imperfect solution to a messy and unfair situation. There is some risk involved. It's your job to minimize this risk. This can only be done by being extremely careful and doing it max a couple of times a year. You seem to understand this.
I also fear that if you don't resolve this one way or another it will slowly eat away at your marriage. Even if you don't resent him, you'll be unhappy. I don't think that you sucking it up and just dealing will be good for you or your marriage. Maybe I'm just giving you a self serving rationalization, but involuntarily sexless marriages rarely turn out well.
posted by whoaali at 11:05 PM on June 28, 2009 [7 favorites]
Talk with your husband about what the two of you can do in bed that is pleasurable for both of you. What you describe as 'Trying' sounds pleasurable for no one.
You say that he has trouble having an orgasm, so why not focus on other things? Does he enjoy bringing you to orgasm? Does he find other things pleasurable?
The two of you may find sexy things you can do that still make you happy. I'd recommend exploring this more.
posted by zippy at 11:51 PM on June 28, 2009
You say that he has trouble having an orgasm, so why not focus on other things? Does he enjoy bringing you to orgasm? Does he find other things pleasurable?
The two of you may find sexy things you can do that still make you happy. I'd recommend exploring this more.
posted by zippy at 11:51 PM on June 28, 2009
If the roles were reversed, if you had a difficulty reaching orgasm but could bring him to orgasm, would he feel obliged to Try for hours every time to get you off?
I once heard of the "prostitute model of sex", which is that (heterosexual) sex is over once the man is done. Given that many women have difficulties or cannot orgasm from intercourse, combined with a lack of trying alternatives, this model might not be such an extraordinary exception. If it is quite commonly accepted for sometimes, then this should hold also when the roles are reversed, meaning sometimes (or often) sex is over when you're done, no obligation to Try every time.
posted by meijusa at 12:49 AM on June 29, 2009
I once heard of the "prostitute model of sex", which is that (heterosexual) sex is over once the man is done. Given that many women have difficulties or cannot orgasm from intercourse, combined with a lack of trying alternatives, this model might not be such an extraordinary exception. If it is quite commonly accepted for sometimes, then this should hold also when the roles are reversed, meaning sometimes (or often) sex is over when you're done, no obligation to Try every time.
posted by meijusa at 12:49 AM on June 29, 2009
He is always happy to do anything he can for me sexually, but since it does still turn him on, I afterward have the unappealing choice of either ignoring his needs or starting a round of Trying.
There's something very important to the meaning of this sentence that I don't understand, and it has everything to do with this specific phrase: "I afterward... ignor[e] his needs." And what I don't understand is this: says who?
Is he pressuring you to try to help him climax? Does he participate in helping you orgasm and then say "Okay, now, let's try to get me off.."? If so, he's making incredible, unrealistic demands on you. If it takes so much time and effort and luck for him to orgasm, then it is just simply inappropriate for him to think that he should have the chance to orgasm every time you do, too. It's just not going to happen. If he's the one who's making you feel like avoiding Trying is "ignoring his needs," then you seriously need to talk to him. You need to point out that it is emotionally vital that he allow you to just have fun sometimes without the corresponding stress and bad feelings associated with (likely) unsuccessful Trying. Heck, you're trying to rationalize cheating on your husband you love so much just because you need to be able to relax and simply enjoy sex more often -- you owe it to him, yourself, and your marriage to let him know what needs you have so he can meet them. Like everyone else is saying, communicate.
Or is it that you are pressuring yourself to help him climax? Do you feel guilty if you get to orgasm but he does not? Do you feel like you have failed him, when he has to go without complete satisfaction but you do? If so, you are putting incredible, unrealistic demands on yourself. Your husband has nerve damage, and that nerve damage is not your fault, and there's nothing you can do to change the fact that he sometimes can't orgasm. You have to start allowing yourself to receive pleasure even though he can't. We tend to think of sex as timed by the male's sexual pleasure: we think it starts with the erection and ends with the ejaculation (think of all the cliches and dumb jokes about men coming too quickly. The female, unsatisfied, just has to deal with the fact that the act has been completed, given that the male has finished). But it certainly doesn't have to be that way. You need to be able to see a sexual encounter in which you orgasm but your husband does not as acceptable and worthy for its own sake. You're not ignoring his needs, you're just living with the fact that you have needs too, and he can help you fulfill them. He's able and willing to help you orgasm, so let him! Again, make him understand that you're struggling to enjoy yourself when you know he cannot orgasm, himself, and work out, together, how you can feel okay gaining satisfaction if he does not. Own your sexual needs, and give him the chance to meet them. Communicate.
...Or is it some mixture of the two? It most certainly is, I bet. Your husband wants to orgasm, I'm sure, and he probably wants dearly for you to help him do so. And I can imagine the pain you both feel, and the guilt that sets in when you see the frustration in his eyes but just want to be done.... I cannot imagine how painful it must be, and I am sincerely sorry for what you both are going through But, again, he needs to understand what your needs are, and you must be willing to let your needs be met without feeling guilty for it. Communicate.
This is a challenge you are both facing. It is not a challenge about sexual release, but is instead a challenge of communicating to each other what your needs are, how the other can possibly meet them, and how the two of you, together, can overcome the obstacles in your way. Cheating on your husband will not do anything to remove these obstacles. At best, it will simply help you ignore the more damaging, underlying problems between your husband and you. At worst, it will turn the current obstacles into insurmountable chasms between the two of you.
From what you have told us, there is no physical reason why your husband cannot give you satisfying sex. There are, instead, only breakdowns in communication. See a therapist. See a sex therapist. Do whatever it takes to get your relationship to the point where sex doesn't necessarily involve frustrating expectations that he orgasm (whether those expectations are his or yours). Work as a team to make sex a fun and happy activity again.
...And if he won't work as a team with you, if he refuses to discuss any problems, if he demands that sex should always be about mutual orgasm despite his disability, if he doesn't listen to your concerns and will not alter his behavior an inch... Then, perhaps, you'll have need to look elsewhere for sexual satisfaction (along with some very significant relationship problems). But, for goodness's sake, you need at least to communicate.
posted by Ms. Saint at 1:18 AM on June 29, 2009 [12 favorites]
There's something very important to the meaning of this sentence that I don't understand, and it has everything to do with this specific phrase: "I afterward... ignor[e] his needs." And what I don't understand is this: says who?
Is he pressuring you to try to help him climax? Does he participate in helping you orgasm and then say "Okay, now, let's try to get me off.."? If so, he's making incredible, unrealistic demands on you. If it takes so much time and effort and luck for him to orgasm, then it is just simply inappropriate for him to think that he should have the chance to orgasm every time you do, too. It's just not going to happen. If he's the one who's making you feel like avoiding Trying is "ignoring his needs," then you seriously need to talk to him. You need to point out that it is emotionally vital that he allow you to just have fun sometimes without the corresponding stress and bad feelings associated with (likely) unsuccessful Trying. Heck, you're trying to rationalize cheating on your husband you love so much just because you need to be able to relax and simply enjoy sex more often -- you owe it to him, yourself, and your marriage to let him know what needs you have so he can meet them. Like everyone else is saying, communicate.
Or is it that you are pressuring yourself to help him climax? Do you feel guilty if you get to orgasm but he does not? Do you feel like you have failed him, when he has to go without complete satisfaction but you do? If so, you are putting incredible, unrealistic demands on yourself. Your husband has nerve damage, and that nerve damage is not your fault, and there's nothing you can do to change the fact that he sometimes can't orgasm. You have to start allowing yourself to receive pleasure even though he can't. We tend to think of sex as timed by the male's sexual pleasure: we think it starts with the erection and ends with the ejaculation (think of all the cliches and dumb jokes about men coming too quickly. The female, unsatisfied, just has to deal with the fact that the act has been completed, given that the male has finished). But it certainly doesn't have to be that way. You need to be able to see a sexual encounter in which you orgasm but your husband does not as acceptable and worthy for its own sake. You're not ignoring his needs, you're just living with the fact that you have needs too, and he can help you fulfill them. He's able and willing to help you orgasm, so let him! Again, make him understand that you're struggling to enjoy yourself when you know he cannot orgasm, himself, and work out, together, how you can feel okay gaining satisfaction if he does not. Own your sexual needs, and give him the chance to meet them. Communicate.
...Or is it some mixture of the two? It most certainly is, I bet. Your husband wants to orgasm, I'm sure, and he probably wants dearly for you to help him do so. And I can imagine the pain you both feel, and the guilt that sets in when you see the frustration in his eyes but just want to be done.... I cannot imagine how painful it must be, and I am sincerely sorry for what you both are going through But, again, he needs to understand what your needs are, and you must be willing to let your needs be met without feeling guilty for it. Communicate.
This is a challenge you are both facing. It is not a challenge about sexual release, but is instead a challenge of communicating to each other what your needs are, how the other can possibly meet them, and how the two of you, together, can overcome the obstacles in your way. Cheating on your husband will not do anything to remove these obstacles. At best, it will simply help you ignore the more damaging, underlying problems between your husband and you. At worst, it will turn the current obstacles into insurmountable chasms between the two of you.
From what you have told us, there is no physical reason why your husband cannot give you satisfying sex. There are, instead, only breakdowns in communication. See a therapist. See a sex therapist. Do whatever it takes to get your relationship to the point where sex doesn't necessarily involve frustrating expectations that he orgasm (whether those expectations are his or yours). Work as a team to make sex a fun and happy activity again.
...And if he won't work as a team with you, if he refuses to discuss any problems, if he demands that sex should always be about mutual orgasm despite his disability, if he doesn't listen to your concerns and will not alter his behavior an inch... Then, perhaps, you'll have need to look elsewhere for sexual satisfaction (along with some very significant relationship problems). But, for goodness's sake, you need at least to communicate.
posted by Ms. Saint at 1:18 AM on June 29, 2009 [12 favorites]
It seems to me that there are two problems here: your sex drive and his drive.
With regard to him: is it just the penile nerve endings that are damaged? If that's the case, would he consider something like an Aneros? You don't need any penile stimulation at all to achieve and orgasm. They can be worn during sex.
With regard to you: I can fully understand why you're considering looking for sex elsewhere. That said, instead of having sex be "us both orgasming in this fashion", have you considered something more free, as in he gets you off in whatever fashion works best for you (oral, vaginal intercourse, whatever), and then you get him off in whatever way works best for him (prostate massage, nipple play, etc)?
With regard to both of you: sex doesn't have to be all about orgasm within a specific length of time. There's all sorts of fun things you can do when touching one another that don't have to lea to orgasm, although they can.
I have no advice as to how to bring this up with your husband. I strongly suggest you do, though. Cheating (as opposed to an open relationship) is an ugly thing. An open
posted by Solomon at 3:49 AM on June 29, 2009 [1 favorite]
With regard to him: is it just the penile nerve endings that are damaged? If that's the case, would he consider something like an Aneros? You don't need any penile stimulation at all to achieve and orgasm. They can be worn during sex.
With regard to you: I can fully understand why you're considering looking for sex elsewhere. That said, instead of having sex be "us both orgasming in this fashion", have you considered something more free, as in he gets you off in whatever fashion works best for you (oral, vaginal intercourse, whatever), and then you get him off in whatever way works best for him (prostate massage, nipple play, etc)?
With regard to both of you: sex doesn't have to be all about orgasm within a specific length of time. There's all sorts of fun things you can do when touching one another that don't have to lea to orgasm, although they can.
I have no advice as to how to bring this up with your husband. I strongly suggest you do, though. Cheating (as opposed to an open relationship) is an ugly thing. An open
posted by Solomon at 3:49 AM on June 29, 2009 [1 favorite]
Having sex with another person isn't ideal, but it isn't necessarily a recipe for certain disaster either. Having a romantic affair with someone else on the other hand probably is a recipe for disaster.
And while honesty really is the best policy, if doesn't follow that not being honest about everything is always the worst policy. sometimes compassion outranks honesty.
This is a messy situation, and not everything always has a clean perfect answer. The best answer might actually involve an amount of mess.
sex is a volatile and troubling area of human relations precisely because it is important. Telling your husband that even after all this effort he is failing give you the sexual pleasure you want is possibly going to upset him.
If you do tell him, maybe it's something you can work through, maybe it isn't - you are the best person to decide whether in this case honesty really is the best policy. All of us are flawed and limited, maybe this is a conversation he can have may be it isn't. Maybe it's something you can solve together, maybe it's not.
Your situation isn't unique, there are other people, particularly people who care for seriously ill partners who they love very much, who are no longer able to have sex with their partners, but who desperately want to have sex, and have made the decision that speaking frankly with their partners isn't the best thing for either them or their partner.
as whoali said :
There is some risk involved. It's your job to minimize this risk
There are opportunities for people to safely have anonymous or casual sex. There are hook up websites, swingers clubs, if you live in europe or australia there is legal prostitution. it's all a bit grubby and messy, but life is grubby and messy.
posted by compound eye at 4:57 AM on June 29, 2009
And while honesty really is the best policy, if doesn't follow that not being honest about everything is always the worst policy. sometimes compassion outranks honesty.
This is a messy situation, and not everything always has a clean perfect answer. The best answer might actually involve an amount of mess.
sex is a volatile and troubling area of human relations precisely because it is important. Telling your husband that even after all this effort he is failing give you the sexual pleasure you want is possibly going to upset him.
If you do tell him, maybe it's something you can work through, maybe it isn't - you are the best person to decide whether in this case honesty really is the best policy. All of us are flawed and limited, maybe this is a conversation he can have may be it isn't. Maybe it's something you can solve together, maybe it's not.
Your situation isn't unique, there are other people, particularly people who care for seriously ill partners who they love very much, who are no longer able to have sex with their partners, but who desperately want to have sex, and have made the decision that speaking frankly with their partners isn't the best thing for either them or their partner.
as whoali said :
There is some risk involved. It's your job to minimize this risk
There are opportunities for people to safely have anonymous or casual sex. There are hook up websites, swingers clubs, if you live in europe or australia there is legal prostitution. it's all a bit grubby and messy, but life is grubby and messy.
posted by compound eye at 4:57 AM on June 29, 2009
I think you guys need some counseling and if that doesn't work, some sort of divorce. No matter what, you need some discussion about this.
First, you guys need to work on lowering the pressure on him orgasming. Sounds like he has a lot of pressure on himself to orgasam. I would think if you are both enjoying yourself and he can have an erection, you could find a way to make it work. The pressure to orgasm isn't helping. And you can help by not requiring it of him, if that is an issue. Think of it this way, if a guy posted on here and said he wanted to cheat because his wife was anorgasmic, he'd be crucified. See what sex therapy can do.
Second, if it doesn't work out, cheating on him (sex with others without his consent) is not going to be easy for either of you. Remember that you love this man and that will mean lying to him. Not easy, and painful--and if he finds out (he will know somewhere deep inside likely as not, even if you are not caught), he could end your marriage and you would be devistated. Having your cake and eating it too is not fair to the one you love. It sucks, but better that you be 100% honest with him that to leave him feeling betrayed. You are human and you have desires and you are allowed to ask for a divorce if you wish, painful as that ism
posted by Ironmouth at 5:13 AM on June 29, 2009
First, you guys need to work on lowering the pressure on him orgasming. Sounds like he has a lot of pressure on himself to orgasam. I would think if you are both enjoying yourself and he can have an erection, you could find a way to make it work. The pressure to orgasm isn't helping. And you can help by not requiring it of him, if that is an issue. Think of it this way, if a guy posted on here and said he wanted to cheat because his wife was anorgasmic, he'd be crucified. See what sex therapy can do.
Second, if it doesn't work out, cheating on him (sex with others without his consent) is not going to be easy for either of you. Remember that you love this man and that will mean lying to him. Not easy, and painful--and if he finds out (he will know somewhere deep inside likely as not, even if you are not caught), he could end your marriage and you would be devistated. Having your cake and eating it too is not fair to the one you love. It sucks, but better that you be 100% honest with him that to leave him feeling betrayed. You are human and you have desires and you are allowed to ask for a divorce if you wish, painful as that ism
posted by Ironmouth at 5:13 AM on June 29, 2009
Sidhedevil: I think people almost always find out about illicit extramarital sex
Not in my experience*. The less often you do it the lower your chances of getting caught but honestly, if you are legitimately somewhere you're supposed to be (like where you live or your home town or a conference) and your spouse is somewhere else, than your chances of being found out are very low. The things that increase the chances of an affair coming to light are a) guilt that leads to a confession, and b) the party not in the marriage turns out to be a psycho bunny boiler.
it isn't a chance I would want to take...
But that's your risk vs. reward assessment. The OP appears to be someone who is asked by circumstance to pay a very high price for getting some of her most basic needs met. Her assessment after living this way for a prolonged period simply may not be the same as yours.
In any case, I think counselling would be a much better first choice than an affair.
I do agree with this. I specifically think a sex counsellor with experience in the OP's husband's type of physical issues would be very helpful here. I'd do everything I could to make the hand dealt work for everyone and learn as much as I could about new ways of doing things with the right professional guidance.
But what I'm also saying here is that regardless of that outcome, no I would not be willing to shut off fulfilling sexuality with another human at 40.
*I dated (or whatever) a lot of married men in my 20s and early 30s. None of these affairs were ever discovered. I may have been morally bankrupt but I was also very discreet.
posted by DarlingBri at 6:34 AM on June 29, 2009
Not in my experience*. The less often you do it the lower your chances of getting caught but honestly, if you are legitimately somewhere you're supposed to be (like where you live or your home town or a conference) and your spouse is somewhere else, than your chances of being found out are very low. The things that increase the chances of an affair coming to light are a) guilt that leads to a confession, and b) the party not in the marriage turns out to be a psycho bunny boiler.
it isn't a chance I would want to take...
But that's your risk vs. reward assessment. The OP appears to be someone who is asked by circumstance to pay a very high price for getting some of her most basic needs met. Her assessment after living this way for a prolonged period simply may not be the same as yours.
In any case, I think counselling would be a much better first choice than an affair.
I do agree with this. I specifically think a sex counsellor with experience in the OP's husband's type of physical issues would be very helpful here. I'd do everything I could to make the hand dealt work for everyone and learn as much as I could about new ways of doing things with the right professional guidance.
But what I'm also saying here is that regardless of that outcome, no I would not be willing to shut off fulfilling sexuality with another human at 40.
*I dated (or whatever) a lot of married men in my 20s and early 30s. None of these affairs were ever discovered. I may have been morally bankrupt but I was also very discreet.
posted by DarlingBri at 6:34 AM on June 29, 2009
Very tough situation.
It seemed to me that, while formulating the question, you have idealized your hometown FWB and this is is likely to skew your results.
posted by bonobothegreat at 7:11 AM on June 29, 2009 [2 favorites]
It seemed to me that, while formulating the question, you have idealized your hometown FWB and this is is likely to skew your results.
posted by bonobothegreat at 7:11 AM on June 29, 2009 [2 favorites]
There's a lot of good advice above. Sorry if I'm duplicating what's already been said.
It sounds like, under the medical circumstances, your husband may well enjoy masturbation more than the difficult "Trying." Most people would find it easier to orgasm by masturbation than by the difficult procedure you describe.
This is something for discussion, e.g., with a counselor. It seems likely that he'd be happy or even relieved if your future lovemaking would focus mostly on your needs, not his.
posted by JimN2TAW at 7:20 AM on June 29, 2009
It sounds like, under the medical circumstances, your husband may well enjoy masturbation more than the difficult "Trying." Most people would find it easier to orgasm by masturbation than by the difficult procedure you describe.
This is something for discussion, e.g., with a counselor. It seems likely that he'd be happy or even relieved if your future lovemaking would focus mostly on your needs, not his.
posted by JimN2TAW at 7:20 AM on June 29, 2009
But here's the thing: I don't think real ethics in real life works according to any such rules.
I must disagree with this sentiment. One of the things that Gov. Sanford said in his press conference that struck me was "I guess God really does put these rules down to protect us from ourselves." Although I am not a Christian, this is so true.
There is no escape from the difficulties of your relationship. They are here, they are real. Having an affair without telling him is putting the difficulties off with the hope that they will go away. You can't do that. The difficulties only come back worse in the end. We cannot escape our fates.
I've felt for a long time that the true definition of doing "evil" is making decisions which provide us short-term benefit at the expense of long-term benefit. The wise course is inevitably exchanging short-term pain for long-term benefit. Although many or most people don't do this, it doesn't make it the most productive way to act.
It may be that your humanness requires you to be with a man who regularly orgasms with you. I think a woman or a man can say "this is a requirement for me." If that is the case, and he would not be ok with an open relationship for both of you, you should divorce this man and not take the good love he could give someone else in a monogamous relationship all for yourself. Because I am certain there is a woman out there who would not have him having an orgasm be a dealbreaker for him. It would be wise to give him that.
Alternatively, you could have an open relationship if he is game. But this means he gets to have other people too. Are you content with that? If not, I'd think twice about this.
Things have a way of getting where they should be, and if you go forward with an affair, he is likely to end up in the arms of someone else as well, through divorce or cheating. That is why the difficult conversation now about where do you go from here is really your best option.
posted by Ironmouth at 7:25 AM on June 29, 2009 [2 favorites]
I must disagree with this sentiment. One of the things that Gov. Sanford said in his press conference that struck me was "I guess God really does put these rules down to protect us from ourselves." Although I am not a Christian, this is so true.
There is no escape from the difficulties of your relationship. They are here, they are real. Having an affair without telling him is putting the difficulties off with the hope that they will go away. You can't do that. The difficulties only come back worse in the end. We cannot escape our fates.
I've felt for a long time that the true definition of doing "evil" is making decisions which provide us short-term benefit at the expense of long-term benefit. The wise course is inevitably exchanging short-term pain for long-term benefit. Although many or most people don't do this, it doesn't make it the most productive way to act.
It may be that your humanness requires you to be with a man who regularly orgasms with you. I think a woman or a man can say "this is a requirement for me." If that is the case, and he would not be ok with an open relationship for both of you, you should divorce this man and not take the good love he could give someone else in a monogamous relationship all for yourself. Because I am certain there is a woman out there who would not have him having an orgasm be a dealbreaker for him. It would be wise to give him that.
Alternatively, you could have an open relationship if he is game. But this means he gets to have other people too. Are you content with that? If not, I'd think twice about this.
Things have a way of getting where they should be, and if you go forward with an affair, he is likely to end up in the arms of someone else as well, through divorce or cheating. That is why the difficult conversation now about where do you go from here is really your best option.
posted by Ironmouth at 7:25 AM on June 29, 2009 [2 favorites]
It's 'for better or for worse, in sickness and in health, forsaking all others' and yadda, yadda, yadda.
A lot of people are assuming they know the precise text of this couple's marriage vows. Just saying.
posted by JimN2TAW at 7:35 AM on June 29, 2009
A lot of people are assuming they know the precise text of this couple's marriage vows. Just saying.
posted by JimN2TAW at 7:35 AM on June 29, 2009
The OP appears to be someone who is asked by circumstance to pay a very high price for getting some of her most basic needs met.
I would hasten to point out that the husband is paying a far higher price by circumstance than the OP is.
posted by Ironmouth at 8:29 AM on June 29, 2009 [3 favorites]
I would hasten to point out that the husband is paying a far higher price by circumstance than the OP is.
posted by Ironmouth at 8:29 AM on June 29, 2009 [3 favorites]
I would hasten to point out that the husband is paying a far higher price by circumstance than the OP is.
This is the core issue. Her husband is injured and needs help, which forces her to put her needs second. She can't bring up the problem she's having, because it sounds selfish and it would probably be thrown back in her face that however bad she feels, her husband is worse off. Her needs/wants and desires are constantly being placed second and that's rough for anyone to accept.
She's clearly willing to help her husband, but it's to the point where anytime something sexual occurs, she has to spend hours getting him off. No wonder she views the slightest hint of sexual interest with exhaustion. And she's only 40! Who the hell wants to think they're in for another 20 or 30 years of that?
Anon, to me is seems as though you two are still trying to behave as if everything was before, where ya'll have sex and everyone has an orgasm. That's not the case anymore. No, it's fair or right or just, but it is reality. This means he has to learn to live with the fact that he can't achieve an orgasm every time he has sex and it's unreasonable to expect or demand that you participate in marathon sessions in order for him to do so. His selfishness, however understandable, is growing selfishness in you and that's not healthy for the relationship.
You should view this as an opportunity to become closer with him. There are various techniques and practices that enable people to have sex for hours and it's something you two should explore. Turn it into an event, block out a set of time, where it's just you two having playing and having sex for hours.
You two really need to talk. Get therapy if you need to, but please do have an honest conversation about how you feel, how he feels and how you two can work together to adjust to the reality of the situation and prevent you from considering affairs.
The ugly fact of marriage is that you say your vows and promise things and then the situation or people change, sometimes without warning and in ways we never imagine. It's ok to question things, it's ok to consider having an affair, you're only human, but to me, the most important part of being married is that you make a commitment to try to deal with this situations together.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:05 AM on June 29, 2009 [4 favorites]
This is the core issue. Her husband is injured and needs help, which forces her to put her needs second. She can't bring up the problem she's having, because it sounds selfish and it would probably be thrown back in her face that however bad she feels, her husband is worse off. Her needs/wants and desires are constantly being placed second and that's rough for anyone to accept.
She's clearly willing to help her husband, but it's to the point where anytime something sexual occurs, she has to spend hours getting him off. No wonder she views the slightest hint of sexual interest with exhaustion. And she's only 40! Who the hell wants to think they're in for another 20 or 30 years of that?
Anon, to me is seems as though you two are still trying to behave as if everything was before, where ya'll have sex and everyone has an orgasm. That's not the case anymore. No, it's fair or right or just, but it is reality. This means he has to learn to live with the fact that he can't achieve an orgasm every time he has sex and it's unreasonable to expect or demand that you participate in marathon sessions in order for him to do so. His selfishness, however understandable, is growing selfishness in you and that's not healthy for the relationship.
You should view this as an opportunity to become closer with him. There are various techniques and practices that enable people to have sex for hours and it's something you two should explore. Turn it into an event, block out a set of time, where it's just you two having playing and having sex for hours.
You two really need to talk. Get therapy if you need to, but please do have an honest conversation about how you feel, how he feels and how you two can work together to adjust to the reality of the situation and prevent you from considering affairs.
The ugly fact of marriage is that you say your vows and promise things and then the situation or people change, sometimes without warning and in ways we never imagine. It's ok to question things, it's ok to consider having an affair, you're only human, but to me, the most important part of being married is that you make a commitment to try to deal with this situations together.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:05 AM on June 29, 2009 [4 favorites]
As to the complexities of real-life ethics, I am in complete agreement with game warden to the events rhino. Rules are useful, but they can't apply to all situations. Life is messy. I feel for you (and your husband), and I'd be the last one to tell you you're a bad person, regardless of what choice you make.
However, when fleeting thoughts of keeping things from my wife enter my mind, I always think this: she WILL find out.
She's not a magic mind-reader, so it's possible that she won't find out. "She will find out" is my shorthand for "there's a good chance she'll find out."
If you hide something from someone who doesn't know you well, you have a reasonable chance of getting away with it. If you hide something from someone who has had the opportunity to observe you for years or decades, the odds are less in your favor.
If you are the only person who knows a secret, odds are in your favor that it will stay a secret. (Though you'd better stay away from alcohol in the company of your husband. I've known people to blurt out dangerous secrets when they're drunk. And lets hope you don't talk in your sleep. And you'd better not keep a diary or computer files. And you'd better hope your husband -- or someone who knows him -- never reads this thread and puts two and two together.)
You WON'T be the only person in on the secret. Your lover will know it, too. So that's double to risk of drunken blabbing or whatever. Yes, he's in a different town. But have you heard of Six Degrees of Separation?
Your lover will probably swear he won't tell anyone. But over the years, he may. And he may not even see this as a betraying the sectet. I'll admit that when someone asks me to not share info, I tell my wife. (Before I was married, I used to tall my best male friend.) I don't think of it as a betrayal, because I sort of think of my wife and I as one person. I say to her, "Fred made me promise not to tell anyone, so please don't pass this on." She promises, but over the years, she might eventually tell a close childhood friend about Fred's secret. She won't think of this as a betrayal, because -- after all -- her close childhood friend is almost an extension of her...
Is your lover married? What if his wife finds out, gets pissed off at him, and blabs just to hurt him and you? If he's not married, what if he gets married in the future? Even if you cut off the affair at that point, his future wife might find out and blab.
Are you going to sneak in through his back door every time you visit him? Are you EVER going to go anywhere with him in public? What if someone sees you? What if that someone tells someone else...?
The BIGGEST enemy to secrets is TIME. All of my above concerns wouldn't be worth worrying about if it wasn't for time. If you only need to keep a secret for a day, you're pretty safe. If you need it keep it for a week, you're less safe. You and your husband will likely be alive for another 40 years. That's 40 years during which the truth can out! People don't believe humans could have evolved by accident. What they fail to grasp is the amount of time involved. Eventually, an infinite amount of monkeys WILL type "Hamlet."
Which is not to say you definitely won't be able to take the secret with you to your grave. You MIGHT be able to do it. But you're foolish if you don't think of this as a risk. You're fooling yourself if you think "there's no possible way my husband could ever find out."
You and your love agree to NEVER tell anyone. Fine. But a promise is not a magic spell. It has to be reasserted every day. TODAY, you and he keep the secret safe. TOMORROW, you and he still keep it safe. THE NEXT day, you and he still keep it safe, THE DAY AFTER THAT, you and he still keep it safe... This "keeping it safe" will have 40 years worth of days to screw up JUST ONCE -- and, if the just once happens, your marriage may be over.
What if he doesn't find out until 20 years from now, when some unlikely coincidence tips him off? What will happen? I'll tell you this: if I was your husband and you told me you had an affair last week, I'd be upset, but I'd probably get over it and forgive you. On the other hand, if you told me you had an affair 20 years ago and have been keeping it from me all this time, nothing could repair the damage. That's a bit irrational of me, but it is how I'd react.
There's no such thing as The Perfect Crime.
posted by grumblebee at 9:11 AM on June 29, 2009 [1 favorite]
However, when fleeting thoughts of keeping things from my wife enter my mind, I always think this: she WILL find out.
She's not a magic mind-reader, so it's possible that she won't find out. "She will find out" is my shorthand for "there's a good chance she'll find out."
If you hide something from someone who doesn't know you well, you have a reasonable chance of getting away with it. If you hide something from someone who has had the opportunity to observe you for years or decades, the odds are less in your favor.
If you are the only person who knows a secret, odds are in your favor that it will stay a secret. (Though you'd better stay away from alcohol in the company of your husband. I've known people to blurt out dangerous secrets when they're drunk. And lets hope you don't talk in your sleep. And you'd better not keep a diary or computer files. And you'd better hope your husband -- or someone who knows him -- never reads this thread and puts two and two together.)
You WON'T be the only person in on the secret. Your lover will know it, too. So that's double to risk of drunken blabbing or whatever. Yes, he's in a different town. But have you heard of Six Degrees of Separation?
Your lover will probably swear he won't tell anyone. But over the years, he may. And he may not even see this as a betraying the sectet. I'll admit that when someone asks me to not share info, I tell my wife. (Before I was married, I used to tall my best male friend.) I don't think of it as a betrayal, because I sort of think of my wife and I as one person. I say to her, "Fred made me promise not to tell anyone, so please don't pass this on." She promises, but over the years, she might eventually tell a close childhood friend about Fred's secret. She won't think of this as a betrayal, because -- after all -- her close childhood friend is almost an extension of her...
Is your lover married? What if his wife finds out, gets pissed off at him, and blabs just to hurt him and you? If he's not married, what if he gets married in the future? Even if you cut off the affair at that point, his future wife might find out and blab.
Are you going to sneak in through his back door every time you visit him? Are you EVER going to go anywhere with him in public? What if someone sees you? What if that someone tells someone else...?
The BIGGEST enemy to secrets is TIME. All of my above concerns wouldn't be worth worrying about if it wasn't for time. If you only need to keep a secret for a day, you're pretty safe. If you need it keep it for a week, you're less safe. You and your husband will likely be alive for another 40 years. That's 40 years during which the truth can out! People don't believe humans could have evolved by accident. What they fail to grasp is the amount of time involved. Eventually, an infinite amount of monkeys WILL type "Hamlet."
Which is not to say you definitely won't be able to take the secret with you to your grave. You MIGHT be able to do it. But you're foolish if you don't think of this as a risk. You're fooling yourself if you think "there's no possible way my husband could ever find out."
You and your love agree to NEVER tell anyone. Fine. But a promise is not a magic spell. It has to be reasserted every day. TODAY, you and he keep the secret safe. TOMORROW, you and he still keep it safe. THE NEXT day, you and he still keep it safe, THE DAY AFTER THAT, you and he still keep it safe... This "keeping it safe" will have 40 years worth of days to screw up JUST ONCE -- and, if the just once happens, your marriage may be over.
What if he doesn't find out until 20 years from now, when some unlikely coincidence tips him off? What will happen? I'll tell you this: if I was your husband and you told me you had an affair last week, I'd be upset, but I'd probably get over it and forgive you. On the other hand, if you told me you had an affair 20 years ago and have been keeping it from me all this time, nothing could repair the damage. That's a bit irrational of me, but it is how I'd react.
There's no such thing as The Perfect Crime.
posted by grumblebee at 9:11 AM on June 29, 2009 [1 favorite]
I thought I made a very good point upthread, that marriage is about sharing the burdens that befall either of the spouses. Let's say one spouse loses his/her job, and the other spouse is still employed. The spouse who is employed doesn't get to go have a fine dinner and tell the other spouse, "Sucks that you're out of work, but since you are, you need to stay home and eat frozen food while I go out and have nice wine and filet mignon with friends."
No matter what your vows are, marriage is about sharing burdens. Her going out to get her freak on with some other guy is not sharing the burden. And to open the door to that kind of relationship is opening the door to her falling in love with the other guy, not to mention creating all kinds of images, in the husband's mind, of his wife being ravished by another man sexually. It is an awful thing to do to her husband, under any circumstance. It is awful to even ask the husband if he would agree for her to do this. It is awful to do it behind his back. It is all-around awful.
posted by jayder at 10:04 AM on June 29, 2009 [1 favorite]
No matter what your vows are, marriage is about sharing burdens. Her going out to get her freak on with some other guy is not sharing the burden. And to open the door to that kind of relationship is opening the door to her falling in love with the other guy, not to mention creating all kinds of images, in the husband's mind, of his wife being ravished by another man sexually. It is an awful thing to do to her husband, under any circumstance. It is awful to even ask the husband if he would agree for her to do this. It is awful to do it behind his back. It is all-around awful.
posted by jayder at 10:04 AM on June 29, 2009 [1 favorite]
Masturbation is not equivalent to sex with another person.
Cheating, however, IS NEVER THE ANSWER. It is better to fall on your own hand than break a loved one's heart. An hour spent with her friend with benefits, during family visits, once or twice a year could destroy years of a loving marriage. The reason for all the sickness or health rich or poor crap is because marriage is not all white fluffy clouds and happiness. There is a lot of bad times too. This is a bad time and I feel sorry for the asker but my advice remains the same. I know it's hard but find a way to work this situation out and have your husband be the one that satisfies you.
posted by Mastercheddaar at 10:24 AM on June 29, 2009 [1 favorite]
I read your question last night and have been thinking about it off and on since then. My heart goes out to you and your husband for being dealt this hand. I do think there are situations in otherwise good relationships where discretely finding sex elsewhere-with or without their partner's consent, implied or explicit–may be the best thing in a difficult situation, including where one party is no longer interested or no longer capable of having sex, for whatever reasons (medical, physical, psychological, etc). And I also think that too many people in relationships have an unrealistic expectation of monogamy, either for themselves or their partners. If this is something you ultimately decide you need to do to keep things together then maybe it's for the best.
But there's an elephant in the room: reading between the lines it appears that you think your husband would be devastated were he to find out you were having sex outside of your marriage.
I realize you said you didn't want advice on the sex aspect but I think it behooves you to truly consider all the options. Your Trying right now sounds grueling, exhausting, and miserable. Sex may not always be great but you both should be having fun and nothing about what you've described sounds remotely fun. Too often the focus is primarily on the man's orgasm, that being the sole reason to have sex, and marking the end. Can you redefine sex so that it's not just focused on this one thing? Can it be focused on making you feel good or just having fun together in bed, without the expectation on one or both of your parts that it will culminate in an hours long process of trying to get him to orgasm? Is your husband unwilling to help you orgasm alone? Have he tried a sex therapist, particularly one experienced in helping people with physical disabilities? Does sex need to mean penis in vagina intercourse? Are there advances in surgical treatments that would now be able to repair some of the damage, that weren't available previously? Is it possible to map his spot to his nipples or some other part of his body, so he can achieve something an orgasm or sexual pleasure from stimulation there? What about other techniques like prostate stimulation or electrostimulation? What about bringing a third party into the bedroom, male or female? What about some kind of professional assistance? When was the last time you simply fooled around without orgasm for either of you being the goal?
Perhaps you've truly exhausted all those options and sex with your husband will forever be this Trying process. But if you haven't please consider that, while you may never have the type of sex with your husband that you once head, it may be possible to find a way to make sex fun and pleasurable for the both of you again. I think, before anything else, you need to have a frank conversation with your husband. Try to find a time and a situation that isn't loaded with expectations and just discuss everything about sex. What is or isn't working for you. What is and isn't working for him. What you can change. What sex means to the both of you. It sounds like you've got a discussion that long overdue for the both of you, before you make a decision on sex with someone else.
posted by 6550 at 10:25 AM on June 29, 2009
But there's an elephant in the room: reading between the lines it appears that you think your husband would be devastated were he to find out you were having sex outside of your marriage.
I realize you said you didn't want advice on the sex aspect but I think it behooves you to truly consider all the options. Your Trying right now sounds grueling, exhausting, and miserable. Sex may not always be great but you both should be having fun and nothing about what you've described sounds remotely fun. Too often the focus is primarily on the man's orgasm, that being the sole reason to have sex, and marking the end. Can you redefine sex so that it's not just focused on this one thing? Can it be focused on making you feel good or just having fun together in bed, without the expectation on one or both of your parts that it will culminate in an hours long process of trying to get him to orgasm? Is your husband unwilling to help you orgasm alone? Have he tried a sex therapist, particularly one experienced in helping people with physical disabilities? Does sex need to mean penis in vagina intercourse? Are there advances in surgical treatments that would now be able to repair some of the damage, that weren't available previously? Is it possible to map his spot to his nipples or some other part of his body, so he can achieve something an orgasm or sexual pleasure from stimulation there? What about other techniques like prostate stimulation or electrostimulation? What about bringing a third party into the bedroom, male or female? What about some kind of professional assistance? When was the last time you simply fooled around without orgasm for either of you being the goal?
Perhaps you've truly exhausted all those options and sex with your husband will forever be this Trying process. But if you haven't please consider that, while you may never have the type of sex with your husband that you once head, it may be possible to find a way to make sex fun and pleasurable for the both of you again. I think, before anything else, you need to have a frank conversation with your husband. Try to find a time and a situation that isn't loaded with expectations and just discuss everything about sex. What is or isn't working for you. What is and isn't working for him. What you can change. What sex means to the both of you. It sounds like you've got a discussion that long overdue for the both of you, before you make a decision on sex with someone else.
posted by 6550 at 10:25 AM on June 29, 2009
I know a former coworker with a spinal injury who that ran workshops on intimacy problems for those with spinal injuries. I don't recall the name of the group he worked with but there are others with similar issues and there is aid for people in your situation.
Look around locally and if you can't find another resource like that, memail me and I can try to put you two in touch.
posted by anti social order at 11:12 AM on June 29, 2009
Look around locally and if you can't find another resource like that, memail me and I can try to put you two in touch.
posted by anti social order at 11:12 AM on June 29, 2009
I think asking him would potentially be the beginning of the end of your marriage. You're asking for his blessing for you to be unfaithful to him, to engage in an act of love with another man. It seems a little tacky.
Very true, and let me also point out that if your marriage ends, his chances of being able to remarry will be vastly diminished by his disability.
posted by HotToddy at 11:48 AM on June 29, 2009
Very true, and let me also point out that if your marriage ends, his chances of being able to remarry will be vastly diminished by his disability.
posted by HotToddy at 11:48 AM on June 29, 2009
If he's cool with it, fine. But if you love someone, you don't lie to them. Ever.
posted by coolguymichael at 12:16 PM on June 29, 2009
posted by coolguymichael at 12:16 PM on June 29, 2009
I thought I made a very good point upthread, that marriage is about sharing the burdens that befall either of the spouses. Let's say one spouse loses his/her job, and the other spouse is still employed. The spouse who is employed doesn't get to go have a fine dinner and tell the other spouse, "Sucks that you're out of work, but since you are, you need to stay home and eat frozen food while I go out and have nice wine and filet mignon with friends.
I guess I see sharing the burdens as also being honest about what isn't working. The OP understandably doesn't want to break her husband's heart by telling him that "trying" is a burden to her - but it is, and unless something changes it will continue to be one.
If it weren't for the husband's disability, we'd be telling the OP she has every right to refuse to engage in sexual activity which she is finding repellent - we're not saying that because the physical disability is not the husband's fault and sexual rejection will devastate him. But the bottom line is still that the OP is being asked to engage in something that she is now actively seeking to avoid. And is actively deceiving her husband in the here and now by not being honest about the extent to which it is becoming a problem for her.
I think she has to be totally honest about the burden that "trying" has become for her - that's the only way that there can be any bilateral solution to this problem. "What next" may become much clearer after that particular gut-wrenching conversation.
posted by Lolie at 9:46 PM on June 29, 2009
I guess I see sharing the burdens as also being honest about what isn't working. The OP understandably doesn't want to break her husband's heart by telling him that "trying" is a burden to her - but it is, and unless something changes it will continue to be one.
If it weren't for the husband's disability, we'd be telling the OP she has every right to refuse to engage in sexual activity which she is finding repellent - we're not saying that because the physical disability is not the husband's fault and sexual rejection will devastate him. But the bottom line is still that the OP is being asked to engage in something that she is now actively seeking to avoid. And is actively deceiving her husband in the here and now by not being honest about the extent to which it is becoming a problem for her.
I think she has to be totally honest about the burden that "trying" has become for her - that's the only way that there can be any bilateral solution to this problem. "What next" may become much clearer after that particular gut-wrenching conversation.
posted by Lolie at 9:46 PM on June 29, 2009
coolguymichael: But if you love someone, you don't lie to them. Ever.
There are a lot of absolutist platitudes being trotted out in this thread and I don't think they're that helpful.
posted by DarlingBri at 3:54 AM on June 30, 2009 [2 favorites]
There are a lot of absolutist platitudes being trotted out in this thread and I don't think they're that helpful.
posted by DarlingBri at 3:54 AM on June 30, 2009 [2 favorites]
And to open the door to that kind of relationship is opening the door to her falling in love with the other guy, not to mention creating all kinds of images, in the husband's mind, of his wife being ravished by another man sexually. It is an awful thing to do to her husband, under any circumstance. It is awful to even ask the husband if he would agree for her to do this. It is awful to do it behind his back. It is all-around awful.
Ravished? Really? This is, um, kind of heated imagining. If the only sex that you can imagine not being hurtful is in-love sex within marriage, that's undoubtedly a strong influence on your behavior, fine. But having outside liaisons is not necessarily a snake-pit of romantic temptation; a subset of couples have discretely permitted affairs since the beginning of marriage. It is not necessarily absolutely "all-around awful."
posted by desuetude at 6:37 AM on June 30, 2009 [2 favorites]
Ravished? Really? This is, um, kind of heated imagining. If the only sex that you can imagine not being hurtful is in-love sex within marriage, that's undoubtedly a strong influence on your behavior, fine. But having outside liaisons is not necessarily a snake-pit of romantic temptation; a subset of couples have discretely permitted affairs since the beginning of marriage. It is not necessarily absolutely "all-around awful."
posted by desuetude at 6:37 AM on June 30, 2009 [2 favorites]
My husband is handling a deeply painful disability with more grace and patience than I would have thought possible. I love and admire him for it, and for many other things, and I have no intention of leaving him. But it's hard for me too, and sometimes the years stretching ahead look very bleak. I never thought I would seriously contemplate breaking my vows, but I also never thought I'd be in an essentially sexless marriage before I was 40. MeFites, have any of you been in a similar situation? If you were in my position, would you do it?
If I were in your position, I would try honest communication and sex therapy with my partner first. I think the suggestions upthread to talk to your partner about opening up the relationship are good ones--undoubtedly, Trying is physically and emotionally exhausting for him, too. Both redefining sex between the two of you and allowing you an outside outlet for totally reasonable sexual desires might actually bring you closer together.
And, because you've gotten a lot of guilt on this thread, I want you to know that I think it's wonderful that you've stayed by your husband's side and supported him through what has undoubtedly been an incredibly trying experience. Despite all of the absolutist maxims here about vows, many women would not have done so--many would have left. I think it's a testament to your own courage, grace, and capacity for love that you're committed to staying with him. I don't envy your position, but I admire the way you've handled it. If I were you, I'd do my best to proceed forward with the same compassion and caring that you've shown your husband so far.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:01 AM on June 30, 2009
If I were in your position, I would try honest communication and sex therapy with my partner first. I think the suggestions upthread to talk to your partner about opening up the relationship are good ones--undoubtedly, Trying is physically and emotionally exhausting for him, too. Both redefining sex between the two of you and allowing you an outside outlet for totally reasonable sexual desires might actually bring you closer together.
And, because you've gotten a lot of guilt on this thread, I want you to know that I think it's wonderful that you've stayed by your husband's side and supported him through what has undoubtedly been an incredibly trying experience. Despite all of the absolutist maxims here about vows, many women would not have done so--many would have left. I think it's a testament to your own courage, grace, and capacity for love that you're committed to staying with him. I don't envy your position, but I admire the way you've handled it. If I were you, I'd do my best to proceed forward with the same compassion and caring that you've shown your husband so far.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:01 AM on June 30, 2009
Very true, and let me also point out that if your marriage ends, his chances of being able to remarry will be vastly diminished by his disability.
I can think of few things which would diminish and demean me more as a person than thinking someone was staying with me out of pity or a belief that no-one else would have me.
posted by Lolie at 11:46 AM on June 30, 2009
I can think of few things which would diminish and demean me more as a person than thinking someone was staying with me out of pity or a belief that no-one else would have me.
posted by Lolie at 11:46 AM on June 30, 2009
Mod note: this is getting a little meta and off topic, please either stick to the question or take metadiscussion to metatalk, thanks
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 4:56 PM on June 30, 2009
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 4:56 PM on June 30, 2009
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 5:10 PM on June 28, 2009 [36 favorites]