building up a bike on a budget
June 24, 2009 12:13 AM Subscribe
Shimano parts filter- I have a ultegra 6500 crankset and rear cassette, but the 105 STI shifters (5600) seem to be a hundred bucks cheaper on ebay than the ultegras. Since their both 9 speeds, would it be a problem to use the 105 shifters with my ultegra gears?
I'm not a heavy rider, I don't race or anything, but I use it to commute and don't have a car so I count on my bike a lot (which just got stolen), now I am building a new one. Any other money saving advice would be appreciated too. I bought the ultegra gear because it was a good deal (20 bucks for the crankset and 20 for the cassette)
Also- if you know the answer to this question I bet you could give me some advice on a good cheap wheelset. This is something I've never had to worry about before.
I'm not a heavy rider, I don't race or anything, but I use it to commute and don't have a car so I count on my bike a lot (which just got stolen), now I am building a new one. Any other money saving advice would be appreciated too. I bought the ultegra gear because it was a good deal (20 bucks for the crankset and 20 for the cassette)
Also- if you know the answer to this question I bet you could give me some advice on a good cheap wheelset. This is something I've never had to worry about before.
Last time I built a bike (admittedly several years ago), Shimano stuff was pretty much interchangeable. You could even mix the mountain bike stuff with the road components. For example, an ultegra indexed shifter with an XT rear derailleur and cassette. Such mixing is more limited with the most recent parts since all the road stuff is 10-speed and the mountain bike stuff is 9-speed.
I think any combination of STI and Ultegra shifter, derailleur, and cassette will work fine (as long as they have the same number of speeds).
posted by ryanrs at 12:30 AM on June 24, 2009
I think any combination of STI and Ultegra shifter, derailleur, and cassette will work fine (as long as they have the same number of speeds).
posted by ryanrs at 12:30 AM on June 24, 2009
Yes, all of these parts are interchangeable. Bike manufacturers will mix and match different lines of parts on bikes, so there is no reason you can't. Unless you get something really old and/or weird, 9-speed is 9-speed.
posted by ssg at 1:15 AM on June 24, 2009
posted by ssg at 1:15 AM on June 24, 2009
I'll bounce your question by Mr 26.2. He's constantly buying and repairing bikes. Usually the bikes he works on are a cobble together of different parts. I see Ultegras mixed with lots of things; I'm betting you'll be fine. The Ultegras are a bit lighter, but on a commuter bike you're probably carrying panniers or a backpack. The tiny weight difference shouldn't be noticeable.
BTW, have you been watching CL for your swiped bike and others legitimately for sale? It seems like CL is absolutely flooded with bikes in the last few weeks. You may save yourself the nuisance of putting one together.
posted by 26.2 at 1:19 AM on June 24, 2009
BTW, have you been watching CL for your swiped bike and others legitimately for sale? It seems like CL is absolutely flooded with bikes in the last few weeks. You may save yourself the nuisance of putting one together.
posted by 26.2 at 1:19 AM on June 24, 2009
On my bike, I currently have Shimano Tiagra shifters and brakes, Shimano Sora rear derailleur, Shimano Ultegra Cassette, and Shimano 105 front derailleur. It all works together wonderfully.
26.2 is right regarding the main difference being weight (and, in theory, the smoothness of the shifting), but on a beater/commuter it won't make a difference.
Just make sure that 9-speed sticks with 9-speed.
Sadly, I don't have too much input about a good cheap wheelset, but the people over at bikeforums.net are sometimes helpful, and will frequently mock you openly, but they're fun that way. :) Really, though, they'll likely be able to point you in the right direction.
Happy riding!
posted by cheeken at 2:43 AM on June 24, 2009
26.2 is right regarding the main difference being weight (and, in theory, the smoothness of the shifting), but on a beater/commuter it won't make a difference.
Just make sure that 9-speed sticks with 9-speed.
Sadly, I don't have too much input about a good cheap wheelset, but the people over at bikeforums.net are sometimes helpful, and will frequently mock you openly, but they're fun that way. :) Really, though, they'll likely be able to point you in the right direction.
Happy riding!
posted by cheeken at 2:43 AM on June 24, 2009
I work in the bike industry. This may sound like a salespitch but beware of the false economy of buying cheap.
Yes, all nine-speed Shimano parts are interchangeable. But Ultegra parts are far more durable and precise than 105 components. While Ultegra parts are initially more expensive, they actually provide better value over the long term than 105. Especially for frequent riders such as yourself.
This difference in durability is especially obvious with the right STI shifter. They are notorious for the ratchet mechanism wearing out, resulting in an inability to downshift. For people who consistently ride several times per week, a 105 STI right shifter will typically last about 1-2 years -- Ultegra typically 3-4 years. Of course it's great for us because we make money selling and installing replacement STI pods, and the margin on spare parts is ridiciulously high.
So, honestly, Ultegra provides you with the best bang-for-buck. 105 will do for recreational fair-weather riders. Dura-Ace is obviously overkill, aimed at those who "need" the lightest and shiniest.
BTW...note that Shimano 5600 is the series number for 105 10 speed, not 9 speed. If you stick with 105, you want Shimano 5500.
posted by randomstriker at 4:22 AM on June 24, 2009 [2 favorites]
Yes, all nine-speed Shimano parts are interchangeable. But Ultegra parts are far more durable and precise than 105 components. While Ultegra parts are initially more expensive, they actually provide better value over the long term than 105. Especially for frequent riders such as yourself.
This difference in durability is especially obvious with the right STI shifter. They are notorious for the ratchet mechanism wearing out, resulting in an inability to downshift. For people who consistently ride several times per week, a 105 STI right shifter will typically last about 1-2 years -- Ultegra typically 3-4 years. Of course it's great for us because we make money selling and installing replacement STI pods, and the margin on spare parts is ridiciulously high.
So, honestly, Ultegra provides you with the best bang-for-buck. 105 will do for recreational fair-weather riders. Dura-Ace is obviously overkill, aimed at those who "need" the lightest and shiniest.
BTW...note that Shimano 5600 is the series number for 105 10 speed, not 9 speed. If you stick with 105, you want Shimano 5500.
posted by randomstriker at 4:22 AM on June 24, 2009 [2 favorites]
One more thing: for the crankset and front derailleur, you can easily mix 9 and 10 speeds, and even brands. On my commuter bike I use 10-speed Campagnolo Chorus shifters with a "9 speed" Ultegra front derailleur and an FSA 9-speed crankset.
posted by randomstriker at 4:36 AM on June 24, 2009
posted by randomstriker at 4:36 AM on June 24, 2009
The rules.
A certain vintage of Dura Ace doesn't work with anything else -- the shifters can be made to work with some parts by different cable routing, but modern shifters won't shift old Dura Ace parts.
Mountain shifters won't shift road derailers correctly, and visa versa -- they pull a different amount of cable to shift a gear. You can get a cam to correct this, if you want twist or thumb shifters with your short-cage 105 rear deralier.
8 speed shifter on a 9 speed right, or 9 on 10, means you lose a gear, but they work. You decide if you want 1-8/9 or 2-9/10. 9 on 8, or 10 on 9, means you have an extra click, but they work -- the limit stops keep you from shifting to a gear you don't have.
3 speed front shifters on a twin often cause the chain to drop unless you set the stops correctly. Modern ones are often switchable in the shifter. 2 speed fronts on triples work, sorta, kinda, but you can't trim correctly.
The levels on Shimano road gear (in general, a give component will be lighter as it advances through the grades)
Sora: Cheap. Used to be Cheap Crap, but they're okay parts now. Sora Brifters used to be a big never buy, but I've heard the newest ones are much better.
As to STI -- I know lots of people who use the brifters, but I don't know anyone who's actually hooked them up to a Shimano cyclometer and actually used STI fully. But I do love my brifters.
Tiagara: Cheaper. Solid. Notably tough, often found on touring rigs, but rougher to shift.
105: Pro-am road/race gear. The difference in smoothness between 105 and Tiagra is noticeable.
Ultegra: Low end race gear. Tough, smooth, expensive. Many people say Ultegra Brifters are much more comfortable than 105 brifters, if you live on the hoods, but that's a personal preference, you have every right to disagree.
Dura Ace: High end race gear. Lightweight, very smooth, very expensive. Not as tough, Jan Ulrich rode a mix of Dura Ace and Ultegra for a while after he broke a series of Dura Ace cranks and bottom bracket bearings (the new outboard bearings are much stronger.) For mere humans, more than strong enough. Cool toys come to this line first (last was 10 speed and outboard crank bearings, now is electric shifting.)
In short: 105 brifters on a Ultegra derailers are going to shift fine.
Aside: Old School Sexy, New School Charm. Yep, brifters on steel and a Brooks saddle. Hawt!
posted by eriko at 4:40 AM on June 24, 2009
A certain vintage of Dura Ace doesn't work with anything else -- the shifters can be made to work with some parts by different cable routing, but modern shifters won't shift old Dura Ace parts.
Mountain shifters won't shift road derailers correctly, and visa versa -- they pull a different amount of cable to shift a gear. You can get a cam to correct this, if you want twist or thumb shifters with your short-cage 105 rear deralier.
8 speed shifter on a 9 speed right, or 9 on 10, means you lose a gear, but they work. You decide if you want 1-8/9 or 2-9/10. 9 on 8, or 10 on 9, means you have an extra click, but they work -- the limit stops keep you from shifting to a gear you don't have.
3 speed front shifters on a twin often cause the chain to drop unless you set the stops correctly. Modern ones are often switchable in the shifter. 2 speed fronts on triples work, sorta, kinda, but you can't trim correctly.
The levels on Shimano road gear (in general, a give component will be lighter as it advances through the grades)
Sora: Cheap. Used to be Cheap Crap, but they're okay parts now. Sora Brifters used to be a big never buy, but I've heard the newest ones are much better.
As to STI -- I know lots of people who use the brifters, but I don't know anyone who's actually hooked them up to a Shimano cyclometer and actually used STI fully. But I do love my brifters.
Tiagara: Cheaper. Solid. Notably tough, often found on touring rigs, but rougher to shift.
105: Pro-am road/race gear. The difference in smoothness between 105 and Tiagra is noticeable.
Ultegra: Low end race gear. Tough, smooth, expensive. Many people say Ultegra Brifters are much more comfortable than 105 brifters, if you live on the hoods, but that's a personal preference, you have every right to disagree.
Dura Ace: High end race gear. Lightweight, very smooth, very expensive. Not as tough, Jan Ulrich rode a mix of Dura Ace and Ultegra for a while after he broke a series of Dura Ace cranks and bottom bracket bearings (the new outboard bearings are much stronger.) For mere humans, more than strong enough. Cool toys come to this line first (last was 10 speed and outboard crank bearings, now is electric shifting.)
In short: 105 brifters on a Ultegra derailers are going to shift fine.
Aside: Old School Sexy, New School Charm. Yep, brifters on steel and a Brooks saddle. Hawt!
posted by eriko at 4:40 AM on June 24, 2009
On my commuter bike I use 10-speed Campagnolo Chorus shifters with a "9 speed" Ultegra front derailleur and an FSA 9-speed crankset.
That changed, then, and thanks for the heads up. It used to be that you couldn't mix Campy shifters with Shimano derailers (or visa versa) without a cam to correct the cable pull. But if that's working smoothly, it means the 10 speed Campy and Shimano shifters are pulling the same amount of cable per shift.
Which is good news, because I know lots of people who love Campy brifters, but don't want to refit the entire drivetrain.
posted by eriko at 4:42 AM on June 24, 2009
That changed, then, and thanks for the heads up. It used to be that you couldn't mix Campy shifters with Shimano derailers (or visa versa) without a cam to correct the cable pull. But if that's working smoothly, it means the 10 speed Campy and Shimano shifters are pulling the same amount of cable per shift.
Which is good news, because I know lots of people who love Campy brifters, but don't want to refit the entire drivetrain.
posted by eriko at 4:42 AM on June 24, 2009
BTW...note that Shimano 5600 is the series number for 105 10 speed, not 9 speed. If you stick with 105, you want Shimano 5500.
This. For your purposes, though, 105 will be great. Hell, guys on my team race 105 and it's certainly not preventing them from winning races.
Also- if you know the answer to this question I bet you could give me some advice on a good cheap wheelset. This is something I've never had to worry about before.
Mavic Open Pro rims on Ultegra hubs from Performance bike: front, rear. $270 list—more than retail on the rims and hubs alone—and Performance usually runs some sort of deal. Right now $50 off any order >$250, but that changes regularly. These wheels are bombproof, reasonably light, and easily fixed. The initial build quality won't be the best, but any competent mechanic can true them and cheaply replace any parts should one fail, which may happen 5-10 years from now. I'd normally recommend some sort of handbuilt wheel, maybe with Open Pros and Ultegra hubs like these, but these are just so much cheaper and after a good true, will be just as good and still cheaper.
posted by The Michael The at 4:57 AM on June 24, 2009
This. For your purposes, though, 105 will be great. Hell, guys on my team race 105 and it's certainly not preventing them from winning races.
Also- if you know the answer to this question I bet you could give me some advice on a good cheap wheelset. This is something I've never had to worry about before.
Mavic Open Pro rims on Ultegra hubs from Performance bike: front, rear. $270 list—more than retail on the rims and hubs alone—and Performance usually runs some sort of deal. Right now $50 off any order >$250, but that changes regularly. These wheels are bombproof, reasonably light, and easily fixed. The initial build quality won't be the best, but any competent mechanic can true them and cheaply replace any parts should one fail, which may happen 5-10 years from now. I'd normally recommend some sort of handbuilt wheel, maybe with Open Pros and Ultegra hubs like these, but these are just so much cheaper and after a good true, will be just as good and still cheaper.
posted by The Michael The at 4:57 AM on June 24, 2009
eriko, the cable pull is different. It's just that it hardly matters for the front derailleur.
For the rear, I did have to jury rig it to adjust for different cable pull between the Chorus 10sp shifter and the Ultegra 9sp rear derailleur -- I didn't mention this at first just to keep my answer clear and concise.
posted by randomstriker at 5:18 AM on June 24, 2009
For the rear, I did have to jury rig it to adjust for different cable pull between the Chorus 10sp shifter and the Ultegra 9sp rear derailleur -- I didn't mention this at first just to keep my answer clear and concise.
posted by randomstriker at 5:18 AM on June 24, 2009
For your purposes, though, 105 will be great. Hell, guys on my team race 105 and it's certainly not preventing them from winning races.
This is the biggest myth in cycling: that racing is the biggest test of your equipment. Newsflash: it's not.
Commuting exacts a far higher toll on your bike than anything else short of loaded, long-distance touring. I also think it's also the kind of cycling where you should spend good money for durable, well-performing, dependable equipment. It's your main mode of transportation and free excercise, fer chrissakes -- think about how much you'd spend otherwise on a car or transit and gym membership.
Moreover, a cheap part failing on a commuter bike could mean being late for your appointment or being stranded in the dark or in the rain. If you have cheap parts on your race bike...well it just means you come 48th in your age group rather than 47th.
posted by randomstriker at 5:29 AM on June 24, 2009 [1 favorite]
This is the biggest myth in cycling: that racing is the biggest test of your equipment. Newsflash: it's not.
Commuting exacts a far higher toll on your bike than anything else short of loaded, long-distance touring. I also think it's also the kind of cycling where you should spend good money for durable, well-performing, dependable equipment. It's your main mode of transportation and free excercise, fer chrissakes -- think about how much you'd spend otherwise on a car or transit and gym membership.
Moreover, a cheap part failing on a commuter bike could mean being late for your appointment or being stranded in the dark or in the rain. If you have cheap parts on your race bike...well it just means you come 48th in your age group rather than 47th.
posted by randomstriker at 5:29 AM on June 24, 2009 [1 favorite]
You'll be fine, and saving a $100 between 105 and Ultegra shifters is reason enough to go with the 105.
The difference between 105 and Ultegra 9-speed shifters was not minimal, but not staggering either. Plus, given that we're talking used parts, it's better to save money than splurge on shifters that may not have much life left.
I just splurged and bought a nearly full ultegra 10-speed group (sans crank and brakes) for my cyclocross bike. Prior to that I was running 105 9-speed - which is what I've always ran on all my bikes for years. It was shocking going from the old 105 to the crisp new ultegra. But then so was the price.
posted by wfrgms at 6:39 AM on June 24, 2009
The difference between 105 and Ultegra 9-speed shifters was not minimal, but not staggering either. Plus, given that we're talking used parts, it's better to save money than splurge on shifters that may not have much life left.
I just splurged and bought a nearly full ultegra 10-speed group (sans crank and brakes) for my cyclocross bike. Prior to that I was running 105 9-speed - which is what I've always ran on all my bikes for years. It was shocking going from the old 105 to the crisp new ultegra. But then so was the price.
posted by wfrgms at 6:39 AM on June 24, 2009
For the rear, I did have to jury rig it to adjust for different cable pull between the Chorus 10sp shifter and the Ultegra 9sp rear derailleur -- I didn't mention this at first just to keep my answer clear and concise.
You could just use a Shiftmate.
This is the biggest myth in cycling: that racing is the biggest test of your equipment. Newsflash: it's not.
How many Record crankarms have you snapped while commuting? How many chains?
I also think it's also the kind of cycling where you should spend good money for durable, well-performing, dependable equipment.
True... which is what 105 is.
posted by The Michael The at 6:45 AM on June 24, 2009
You could just use a Shiftmate.
This is the biggest myth in cycling: that racing is the biggest test of your equipment. Newsflash: it's not.
How many Record crankarms have you snapped while commuting? How many chains?
I also think it's also the kind of cycling where you should spend good money for durable, well-performing, dependable equipment.
True... which is what 105 is.
posted by The Michael The at 6:45 AM on June 24, 2009
Shimano 105 brifters: They are notorious for the ratchet mechanism wearing out
This is one of the main reasons I only spend good money on campagnolo parts. All shimano stuff is black box. If it breaks, replace the whole unit. On most campy stuff, perhaps all, you can replace parts down to the individual spring, screw, washer, etc. They never wear out.
Campy/Shimano front derailleurs are more or less interchangeable.
As for campy:
All 8 speed brifters work with all 8 speed rear der.
In 2001 campagnolo changed the geometry of their rear derailleur so:
all 9 speed shifters older than 2001 works with all 9 speed rear derailleurs pre 2001
all post 2001 9 and 10 speed shifters work with all post 2001 9 and 10 speed rear dereailleurs.
I haven't kept up with the 11 speed or anything since 2004 or 2005, so there is more to learn, but that stuff is all probably more than you want to spend if you are looking at 105 prices.
posted by Antidisestablishmentarianist at 9:24 AM on June 24, 2009
This is one of the main reasons I only spend good money on campagnolo parts. All shimano stuff is black box. If it breaks, replace the whole unit. On most campy stuff, perhaps all, you can replace parts down to the individual spring, screw, washer, etc. They never wear out.
Campy/Shimano front derailleurs are more or less interchangeable.
As for campy:
All 8 speed brifters work with all 8 speed rear der.
In 2001 campagnolo changed the geometry of their rear derailleur so:
all 9 speed shifters older than 2001 works with all 9 speed rear derailleurs pre 2001
all post 2001 9 and 10 speed shifters work with all post 2001 9 and 10 speed rear dereailleurs.
I haven't kept up with the 11 speed or anything since 2004 or 2005, so there is more to learn, but that stuff is all probably more than you want to spend if you are looking at 105 prices.
posted by Antidisestablishmentarianist at 9:24 AM on June 24, 2009
I just looked this up myself.
>Mountain shifters won't shift road derailers correctly, and visa versa -- they pull a different amount of cable to shift a gear.
Wrong--at least for Shimano rear derailleurs--according to Sheldon Brown:
I'll also recommend bikeforums.net, particularly the commuting forum.
posted by RikiTikiTavi at 1:59 PM on June 24, 2009
>Mountain shifters won't shift road derailers correctly, and visa versa -- they pull a different amount of cable to shift a gear.
Wrong--at least for Shimano rear derailleurs--according to Sheldon Brown:
Rear derailers are often differentiated into "road" and "mountain" models. This is actually a false distinction based on marketing hypeAs for wheelsets, lot of people seem to recommend bicyclewheels.com for inexpensive wheels, and I also have Neuvation Cycling's wheels page bookmarked which probably means someone recommended them.
[...]
Rear derailers often are referred to as "7-speed", "8-speed" or "9-speed." This is not as important a distinction as it might appear. Current model derailers are pretty much interchangeable within brands. A "7-speed" or "8-speed" designation generall just indicates that the derailer is an older design, or a cheaper model. They'll all work with all 3 systems, though the models marked "9-speed" will generally be slightly better (whatever cluster you use.)
I'll also recommend bikeforums.net, particularly the commuting forum.
posted by RikiTikiTavi at 1:59 PM on June 24, 2009
How many Record crankarms have you snapped while commuting? How many chains?
I've seen plenty of both out of the folks who bring their bikes in for servicing. We are the biggest high end road racing shop in town, yet the commuters who come to us consistently have the most impressive war wounds. Especially the dedicated all-weather commuters -- they experience more wear and tear in a month than many "racers" will throughout their lifetime. A good dooring will cause as much damage as a criterium pile-up.
posted by randomstriker at 5:17 PM on June 24, 2009
I've seen plenty of both out of the folks who bring their bikes in for servicing. We are the biggest high end road racing shop in town, yet the commuters who come to us consistently have the most impressive war wounds. Especially the dedicated all-weather commuters -- they experience more wear and tear in a month than many "racers" will throughout their lifetime. A good dooring will cause as much damage as a criterium pile-up.
posted by randomstriker at 5:17 PM on June 24, 2009
This thread is closed to new comments.
damn.
posted by Large Marge at 12:29 AM on June 24, 2009