How far do you go before you call it quits?
May 20, 2009 3:14 PM   Subscribe

How far do you go before you call it quits?

I have been married for a few years, and recently, our relationship has just been going further and further down hill. I've tried to get the two of us to go to counseling, but my wife will not go due to an overwhelming compunction against talking about personal things with anyone but me, and we cannot seem to work through any (and I do mean any) of our problems ourselves.

I don't want to get a divorce, but we cannot live the rest of our lives (happily anyways) the way things are now. We need a change, but we cannot seem to get anywhere.

I guess my ultimate question is this: how far do you go, or how long do you wait until you're done when nothing is changing? I don't want to bail too early as we could still salvage the marriage, but I don't want to drag things out and hurt her more than I have to... Any thoughts?
posted by anonymous to Human Relations (23 answers total) 7 users marked this as a favorite
 
I'm sorry to hear of your problems and I believe you are on the right track by suggesting counseling.

To answer the question how far do you go, my answer is "as far as it seems worth it".

I was going to type "as far as it takes" but I realized that related to my own marriage, with a wife I love very much and we are fairly happy...but if things were such where I found myself falling out of love, or where my basic needs were not being met, then I think there would be a point where I would wonder how much of myself I would sacrifice.

I think the answer would be if you've tried all that seems reasonable and no progress is being made, then you cut your losses.

In this case, things are being made worse by her refusal to join you in couples counseling. I think she is showing you by refusing totally to go, that either (a) she doesn't think things are as bad as you think they are or (b) she is not willing to "go the distance" to save your relationship.

So I'd take those facts into account when making your decision.

If you're looking for a calendar time frame, I'd say about 30 days. If things are horrible and there is zero improvement for a full month, then it's trial separation time (and who knows, perhaps the reality of being without you instead of the abstract concept of you leaving will force her hand and she will agree to try to work things out in therapy. Or not.)
posted by arniec at 3:27 PM on May 20, 2009


Um, do you want to go into specifics?

I'd go to counseling yourself until she decides she'll go.
posted by kldickson at 3:27 PM on May 20, 2009 [5 favorites]


What does she want? YOU don't want to get a divorce, and you don't want to hurt her more than you have to.. Does SHE want to stay and try to make the marriage work? If yes, does she realize that you're not getting anywhere? Because if she wants to make it work and you're guys are trying but nothing is changing, and she doesn't want to try counseling, you're at a dead end unless you come up with some other solution. If she doesn't want to stay and work on the marriage with you and doesn't want counseling, well then, it sounds like there's not much you can do about it, and if she wants to end things between you two then dragging things out will end up hurting her more.
posted by KateHasQuestions at 3:30 PM on May 20, 2009 [3 favorites]


Even if your wife will not go, make an appointment for a marriage counselor / therapist. Let her know about the appointment, tell her you want her to go, but go by yourself if she won't go.

Although it takes 2 people to make a relationship work, going to a counselor just on your own might be very helpful. Sometimes, one person can take actions to change the dynamics of the relationship, and stop destructive vicious cycles, even for issues that are not "your fault."

The therapist can help you find ways to make things better, even without her active participation. Often, it's possible to change your own behavior in a way that elicits a different reaction from your spouse. In the middle of drama, it can be very difficult, but it's worth a shot. You have nothing to lose.

I would at least try this before throwing in the towel. Give it some time with the therapist on a regular basis. Once she sees you are committed to counseling and trying to save the marriage, she might decide to join you. On the other hand, if nothing changes, your therapist will be in the best position to tell you when enough is enough.

Good luck!
posted by The Deej at 3:37 PM on May 20, 2009 [12 favorites]


"I've tried to get the two of us to go to counseling, but my wife will not go due to an overwhelming compunction against talking about personal things with anyone but me, and we cannot seem to work through any (and I do mean any) of our problems ourselves."

A very wise but not entirely humble T-Rex once said; Let's say you have a problem with your partner. THAT SUCKS. But you two should talk about it, and if you can't reach a solution, resolution or compromise that's mutually satisfying and that you both believe will be acceptably implemented, then you should break up (or in your case, divorce).

If talking with her hasn't solved anything before, and continued discussion with your partner yields no future solutions, resolutions or compromises, I think you have, sadly, reached the point where you should call it quits.
posted by Effigy2000 at 3:46 PM on May 20, 2009 [3 favorites]


If she is willing to talk to you about your problems, then all is not lost. If you see a counselor yourself, the counselor may be able to help you see a new perspective on your problems, which you can then bring back to your conversations with your spouse. Or your counselor may suggest new ways for you to talk to your spouse about these problems that would be more productive.

It sounds to me like your spouse wants to make it work and can't get past shyness about personal issues. I can sympathize with that perspective. Maybe after you have seen the counselor for awhile, your spouse would be willing to be come along, maybe just to listen.

Obviously there is a point of no return, but you may not be there yet.
posted by mai at 4:11 PM on May 20, 2009 [2 favorites]


It seems to me you've got the basic idea of when you give up on a relationship: when it's intractable, for whatever reason. Right now, it's intractable because your wife is refusing options that might help fix things.

I've tried to get the two of us to go to counseling, but my wife will not go due to an overwhelming compunction against talking about personal things with anyone but me, and we cannot seem to work through any (and I do mean any) of our problems ourselves.

I don't want to get a divorce, but we cannot live the rest of our lives (happily anyways) the way things are now.


Tell her that outright, if you haven't already. If she refuses counseling again, say alright, you're sorry she feels that way, but that means there's no other option than divorce. If she doesn't agree to counseling at that point, then give her a day or more to think it over. If she still refuses, you know what you've gotta do.
posted by Nattie at 4:18 PM on May 20, 2009


"I've tried to get the two of us to go to counseling, but my wife will not go due to an overwhelming compunction against talking about personal things with anyone but me"

Maybe you could try, and of course I'm not sure if you've already tried this or not, approaching this specific problem before tackling everything else, so that you can get some counseling or at least some serious outside advice.

Figure out why she feels this way. There may be issues of severe shame or embarrassment over the things she thinks would be disclosed. You may be able to point out that, first of all, therapy is confidential, and seriously only the therapist would hear everything. Also, while of course everyone's problem is special and huge and monumental to them, it is probably totally humdrum to someone who works in this field. Not to minimize your issues, of course, but to reassure her that the therapist is not going to be judging you here at all; he or she likely has heard it all before and probably worse. Try to distinguish "talking it out with one person, confidentially, in a non-judgmental setting" from "airing dirty laundry in front of people." This might help.
posted by rkent at 4:27 PM on May 20, 2009 [2 favorites]


As much as I support counseling, it isn't a panacea. What is important is that you let your wife know that you can't keep going on like this, and counseling is the best idea you've come up with so far.

Then, since I think you are indeed on a good track, make and keep the appointment, even if she won't come.

But also be open to other thoughts or possibilities. If she suggests a 'one thing' you need to change (as you have suggested she change related to the counseling) genuinely listen.

The more open you can stay (and the less attached to a 'my way or the highway' thought process) the more likely you'll find a genuine solution.
posted by meinvt at 4:31 PM on May 20, 2009 [1 favorite]


I don't think there's enough info in your question. What's going wrong? Why are things so bad? How long exactly have things been going badly?
posted by xammerboy at 4:45 PM on May 20, 2009


Have you explored self-help books?
posted by philosophistry at 5:17 PM on May 20, 2009


Do you have children? Honestly, I think you go a little farther if kids are involved and there's no abuse. Abuse - take the kiddos and haul. General dissatisfaction you give it some extra attempts, but then can gently and honorably toss in the towel.

I try to evaluate things based on the person's behavior instead of what they say. From your question, your wife is unwilling to take action to create change. For instance, she's unwilling to request a counselor's help but willing to relive your old, unproductive conversations. Of course, you might have missed mentioning some suggestions she's had - work less, spend more time together or apart, etc. If she's just not proposing anything that can produce positive change and unwilling to attempt what you propose, she's not really looking for any changes.

Get thee to a counselor - on your own.
posted by 26.2 at 5:21 PM on May 20, 2009 [2 favorites]


I also think there's not enough info given by the OP.

As a side note: I realize that Mefi is fanatical about the value of counseling. This "value" seems so obvious to many here (especially in the U.S.), that to object to it, is akin to saying the earth is flat.

Newsflash: this is at least partially a cultural condition, not some "objective" evaluation of suitability or effectiveness. In many parts of the world, and in many other cultures, including many parts of Europe, the suggestion that a "professional" stranger is equipped to help you with your private psychological or relationship problems (marital or otherwise) would be met with incredulity. This automatic assumption that psychological counseling is good, is a uniquely American phenomenon.

Furthermore, I question this automatic assumption of value. Recent studies have indicated that for example psychological counseling after a traumatic event (like a terror attack), does more harm than good. The scientific underpinnings of the entire field are dubious. A lot of it is unsupported assumptions, and subject to fashions and fads.

And even where it may be helpful - for example in getting an outsider's perspective - a very great deal depends on the skill of the counsellor. I suggest, that truly great counsellors are rare, like truly great violinists or truly great men/women in any field. Odds that you will encounter one, are low to very low.

All this is a long way of saying that she is not a bad person just for objecting to the whole idea. I too would object. I am a private person. I am shocked and frankly somewhat put off by the casual way in which people discuss intimate details of their spousal relationships with their friends. To me, that is a breach of trust, yes, but more importantly absurdly inappropriate - I feel that I am in a vastly better position to assess my marriage than any stranger can possibly be. It would strike me as bizarre to ask anyone what their thoughts are in this respect.

Now, I'm not saying that turning to an outsider is always bad. Some people find themselves trapped in a highly manipulative relationship, and they desperately need an outsider's perspective or outright help (especially when there are abuse issues). So absolutely, there are cases where outside help is highly advisable, not to say practically mandatory. It is the casual turn for every single problem to "counseling" that I find unjustified.

To sum up: I don't think she's a bad person just because she refuses to go to counseling with you. That refusal is not a negative in my book. YMMV.
posted by VikingSword at 5:36 PM on May 20, 2009 [8 favorites]


My experience with counseling has been good. Learning about yourself only helps. If she won't go she won't go.
posted by Ironmouth at 6:14 PM on May 20, 2009


This automatic assumption that psychological counseling is good, is a uniquely American phenomenon.

Insert: "very recent"

I think people figured it out as, one by one, they heard from someone that it had really helped them.
posted by salvia at 6:23 PM on May 20, 2009


Can she talk to her friends at least? Does she have friends?
posted by fshgrl at 7:15 PM on May 20, 2009 [1 favorite]


how far is too far is a tough question, and ultimately only answerable by you OP. I take heart that you do not want a divorce. I'm going to pose some questions and thoughts for you to look over. I hope they help!

How seriously do you hold the vows when you made when you married your wife? Often people will generally go with something along the lines of, "To have and to hold, from this day forward, for better for worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, till death do us part." Not everyone may agree, but it's my opinion that a vow, your word, is a very VERY important thing.

If you hold a religious tradition or subscribe to a Faith practice in your life, you may want to take into account that your marriage vows were not necessarily made directly to your wife, but between the two of you and your God(s). I also heartily believe that this falls under the "for better or for worse" and "in sickness" sections of common marriage vows.

Are you endeavoring to love your wife to the best of your ability, in spite of the circumstances? In similar circumstances i have found inspiration from a oft-quoted biblical passage in Paul's first letter to the Corinthian church. I bring this up, not knowing your faith if any, but i would hope people in any faith (or not) would find truth in the passage:

1 Corinthians 13 4-7
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

I think it's important that the first attribute ascribed to love is patience. Also, pay particular attention to verse 7:It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Without knowing a lot more detail, i think this would be something to consider your view on, since it does not seem that there is abuse, cheating, violence etc happening in your situation.

I hope OP, that regardless of how things work out for you, that you won't harden yourself against your wife through these tough circumstances. Seek counsel in your faith, from a mentor, from a licensed MFT in your area, or from books, friends etc. Labor to love your wife unconditionally, always with patience for yourself and her through these times. Control only what you can control, and that's your own actions. Make them the best and loving actions possible. Approaching from these angle will only benefit you (both!) in the end. I wish you the best, and hope this bit has helped you with your question.
posted by Bohemia Mountain at 8:12 PM on May 20, 2009


Go to counseling yourself, by yourself. IT'll help you sort through everything else that might need to happen.
posted by Miko at 8:16 PM on May 20, 2009


VikingSword: Newsflash: this is at least partially a cultural condition, not some "objective" evaluation of suitability or effectiveness. In many parts of the world, and in many other cultures, including many parts of Europe, the suggestion that a "professional" stranger is equipped to help you with your private psychological or relationship problems (marital or otherwise) would be met with incredulity. This automatic assumption that psychological counseling is good, is a uniquely American phenomenon.

This is true—but—most societies have some tradition surrounding discussing difficult matters with a person whose avocation is helping others. For some it's a priest, others have a rabbi, others have a village elder, but all societies need arbiters of these things, especially when it comes to matters of marriage. I respectfully submit that it is healthy to discuss these sorts of things with a third party, be that third party a psychologist, a priest, or someone else who is neutral and who is experienced and somewhat wise.

As to the question, how far do you go?—I have only one response:

Take it from me: divorce really, really sucks. Whether you welcome it or you dread it, it sucks worse than you realize before you go through it. It's not cowardice to try to work things out to save yourself that agony; it's wise living.
posted by koeselitz at 10:24 PM on May 20, 2009 [2 favorites]


Bohemia, I don't think this OP needs a guilt trip about the vows he made to his higher power. He obviously has a desire to remain in his marriage, but staying in a marriage where everyone is unhappy with a partner who is unwilling to compromise with the OP can be severely detrimental to one's psychological, physical, and yea, even Spiritual health. He does not have a responsibility to be God to her. He has a responsibility to be honorable.

But he is still allowed to be a person. He is allowed to have his own emotions, including hurt, pain, suffering, anger. And he has permission to make his feelings known to her. He should not have to pretend to her that everything is lovely when he is really in a great deal of pain. Most people who do that end up acting very smugly superior to their partner, as though they are the martyr of the relationship. His partner will not appreciate that, and no one will be served.

All the traits you mentioned are necessary in a functioning relationship. But it has to go both ways. Marriage is a contract they both signed. If she's not able to fulfill her part, the contract they made is null and void.
posted by mynameismandab at 12:45 AM on May 21, 2009


What does she need/want? Did this recent situation evolve based on collected resentment on either side? Is there any action you can take already to make things better, besides going along, waiting, or expecting help from the third party (counseling) to improve situation? Never give up on yourself, do attempt being proactive, you cannot afford passivity with so much at stake. Who knows, maybe your strength is all that it takes this time, and hers was/will be needed some other time. That's what makes marriages different from other relationships.

Also, making far-fetched predictions out of a 'recent' situation is somewhat illogical.
posted by Jurate at 12:50 AM on May 21, 2009


mynameismandab, i think you've made some great points in your answer. In posting i meant to simply encourage inward questioning on the OP's part. No guilt intended or encouraged at all. I agree that experiencing and recognizing emotions we go through in tough times is an important and valid exercise. deciding when and where to express those valid emotions through troubled times, in pursuit of the OP's goal of reconciliation, is a challenging and maturity building concept. Anger, hurt, sadness and other emotions are very valid, but can possibly be detrimental to express compared to forgiveness, acceptance, and unconditional love. I don't want these concepts to be construed as martyrdom, but as a loving and SELFLESS expression of how the OP cares for his spouse. Perhaps think of these as an outward expression of the inward reality of his love for his spouse regardless of circumstance and fleeting emotion.

As for the assumed inability for the OP wife's acceptance of joint counseling, i think that is always something that can change with time. Could be 20 minutes from now, could be two years, or who knows. That's something the wife has to decide on her own. I wanted to encourage the OP through posing questions, not only to help evaluate where he stands in relation to those questions of vows etc, but to be the best possible spouse they can be in the mean time.

Acting as the best possible spouse is not for the wife's sake, but for the OP. In these situations where at least one partner wants to continue to work on restoration of the relationship I believe it's super important to be the best one can be no matter what. Then no matter the outcome of the reconciliation (or not) process, the OP would know they not only did everything in their power but also became a better person for it. Ideally acting in the matter is a true reflection of their love for their spouse, in spite of circumstance. If someone were to act this way genuinely and not out of a desire to manipulate their spouse, i think it's a fantastic way to approach things. Consistency in this over time is key.

Overall, i just wanted to help the OP self-evaluate, without encouraging any guilt. Thanks for your post to help me clarify. as before, best of luck, and all the encouragement in the world to the OP. stand strong and be encouraged friend!
posted by Bohemia Mountain at 1:48 AM on May 21, 2009


How far do you go, or how long do you wait until you're done when nothing is changing?


I recently got out of a five-year relationship where I knew for about a year I was not going to spend the rest of my life with this person, and about six months thinking I CANNOT STAND MY LIFE WITH YOU HATE HATE HATE HATE DEATH DAGGERS but smiling and pretending everything was just dandy because I wanted to work it out.

What did I learn? Well, if you don't think it's going to work out, it probably won't, and the sooner you get out the better. I was waiting for something, an awful fight to show we needed to break up, or a profound revelation showing we should stay together. Eventually I got it, but I wish I had had the balls to break it up when I first started being sure of my doubts.

That is not an OMG DTMFA!!! since I have no where near enough information. That is just my personal experience in how long it took for me to give up (too damn long). It should also be mentioned that we were not married and we did not have children.
posted by Juliet Banana at 7:40 AM on May 21, 2009 [1 favorite]


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