Two Sides To the Story Left Me Feeling Anxious
May 10, 2009 10:07 AM Subscribe
Would my ex really lie about something like this?
Recently I got information from a mutual friend of ours (no longer my ex's) about his disloyalty to me while we were dating. She never told me before but she kinda distanced herself from me and completely cut him out her life. It wasn't until I contacted her asking if she spoke to my ex recently because I was worried about him since he got mad at me since I told him to not contact me everyday. Well, she said she hasn't spoken to him in a year and asked me what was up. I told her and that's when she said "don't hate me but I think he's an asshole." She then told me in specifics the night I called around wondering where he was, well she said he was trying to get her into bed at her apartment. That night I was under the impression he was having a business meeting with her for an hour. He never got in touch with me and wasn't answering my calls. I called around and finally got in touch with her and she sounded a bit off on the phone. Well it turns out that my call stopped him from taking further advantage of her and he left the apartment saying "I'm not here, I'm not here." She also told me of how he made advances on her even after that incident recounting specifically things he said to her like "If we were going out would your parents allow you to date a black man?" She gave clear examples that otherwise she couldn't have possibly known. That's her side of things.
His side of things when I went to confront him and give him back his promise ring, he got very upset. He started to salivate (cause he kept spitting on the ground) and he was rolling up his cuffs and taking out his dress shirt as he couldnt believe what I told him. He said "You believe that fat bitch? Let me tell you about her, she wanted to fuck me and I wouldn't give her the time of day. She couldn't hold a candle to you!" He explained "That night, I stopped by and her friend was there and she was drunk, all over me and I had to throw her unto the floor. So, that's why you haven't been talking to me? Unreal!" and proceeded to tell me how much I have hurt him and claimed I was never there for him, but meanwhile he was confusing me. If I did all that, why would he want to marry me? Anyways, I didn't let him continue the rhetoric, I just played it cool and said we just gotta move on. But it left me feeling anxious because it went unresolved. Is it possible he was telling the truth and she is just a conniving woman or did he lie again to me?
Recently I got information from a mutual friend of ours (no longer my ex's) about his disloyalty to me while we were dating. She never told me before but she kinda distanced herself from me and completely cut him out her life. It wasn't until I contacted her asking if she spoke to my ex recently because I was worried about him since he got mad at me since I told him to not contact me everyday. Well, she said she hasn't spoken to him in a year and asked me what was up. I told her and that's when she said "don't hate me but I think he's an asshole." She then told me in specifics the night I called around wondering where he was, well she said he was trying to get her into bed at her apartment. That night I was under the impression he was having a business meeting with her for an hour. He never got in touch with me and wasn't answering my calls. I called around and finally got in touch with her and she sounded a bit off on the phone. Well it turns out that my call stopped him from taking further advantage of her and he left the apartment saying "I'm not here, I'm not here." She also told me of how he made advances on her even after that incident recounting specifically things he said to her like "If we were going out would your parents allow you to date a black man?" She gave clear examples that otherwise she couldn't have possibly known. That's her side of things.
His side of things when I went to confront him and give him back his promise ring, he got very upset. He started to salivate (cause he kept spitting on the ground) and he was rolling up his cuffs and taking out his dress shirt as he couldnt believe what I told him. He said "You believe that fat bitch? Let me tell you about her, she wanted to fuck me and I wouldn't give her the time of day. She couldn't hold a candle to you!" He explained "That night, I stopped by and her friend was there and she was drunk, all over me and I had to throw her unto the floor. So, that's why you haven't been talking to me? Unreal!" and proceeded to tell me how much I have hurt him and claimed I was never there for him, but meanwhile he was confusing me. If I did all that, why would he want to marry me? Anyways, I didn't let him continue the rhetoric, I just played it cool and said we just gotta move on. But it left me feeling anxious because it went unresolved. Is it possible he was telling the truth and she is just a conniving woman or did he lie again to me?
You're asking a bunch of people who neither the man or the woman who is more trustworthy. Either of them could be lying. You really know best. Go with your gut.
posted by grouse at 10:18 AM on May 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by grouse at 10:18 AM on May 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
It's impossible to tell, but it sounds like way too much drama. Your life would be much less hectic without both these people in it, especially him.
posted by anniek at 10:21 AM on May 10, 2009 [11 favorites]
posted by anniek at 10:21 AM on May 10, 2009 [11 favorites]
does it matter if either or both of them are lying? you're not in a relationship with the guy any more. if you really want to move on, like you said, stop checking up on him and stop confronting him. move on.
posted by lia at 10:25 AM on May 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by lia at 10:25 AM on May 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
Well, it's possible he was telling the truth, I suppose. But you said "did he lie again" so he must have had a history of lying to you. That's a red flag.
To me, it sounds like a classic lie from someone caught cheating or trying to cheat. He was trying to deflect attention from his actions by calling your actions into question. That makes you start to doubt yourself, instead of him.
But, we don't know these people. Maybe you need to ask yourself who has the most to gain by lying in this case. It sounds like your friend wasn't trying to break you guys up or otherwise make trouble. The fact that she didn't tell you about what happened until you pressed her on it, makes me think that she was telling the truth.
posted by cabingirl at 10:25 AM on May 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
To me, it sounds like a classic lie from someone caught cheating or trying to cheat. He was trying to deflect attention from his actions by calling your actions into question. That makes you start to doubt yourself, instead of him.
But, we don't know these people. Maybe you need to ask yourself who has the most to gain by lying in this case. It sounds like your friend wasn't trying to break you guys up or otherwise make trouble. The fact that she didn't tell you about what happened until you pressed her on it, makes me think that she was telling the truth.
posted by cabingirl at 10:25 AM on May 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
Who cares. Why are you still in contact with this man?
posted by rokusan at 10:25 AM on May 10, 2009 [19 favorites]
posted by rokusan at 10:25 AM on May 10, 2009 [19 favorites]
He's your ex. Add this bit of knowledge (or suspicion) to the list of other things that caused you to break up.
You've already DTMFA. Start acting like it and move on with your life.
posted by wfrgms at 10:31 AM on May 10, 2009
You've already DTMFA. Start acting like it and move on with your life.
posted by wfrgms at 10:31 AM on May 10, 2009
Based on previous questions you asked about this relationship and the drama involved, yourcurrent status of being broken up and his hilarious attempts at lying and manipulating you, it would probably be better if you cut him out of your life.
Seriously, he's lied to you before and you're wondering if he's lying now? Magic eight ball says "Holy shit, stop talking to that asshole, it's not doing your life any good!"
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:33 AM on May 10, 2009 [5 favorites]
Seriously, he's lied to you before and you're wondering if he's lying now? Magic eight ball says "Holy shit, stop talking to that asshole, it's not doing your life any good!"
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:33 AM on May 10, 2009 [5 favorites]
He sounds like a turd, and a manipulative turd at that.
Lying comes really easy to some people and if you're a basically honest person it's easy to forget that, but some people get into the habit as children and never really develop much of a problem with it.
The fact that you're asking this suggests to me you still have feelings for him. Based on your writing, he kind of sounds like an asshole, and someone you should avoid. The others are right -- why are you pursuing this? Who cares? This sounds like the express to tedious dramaville.
Avoid relationships where shit like this happens. It's a red flag.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 10:34 AM on May 10, 2009
Lying comes really easy to some people and if you're a basically honest person it's easy to forget that, but some people get into the habit as children and never really develop much of a problem with it.
The fact that you're asking this suggests to me you still have feelings for him. Based on your writing, he kind of sounds like an asshole, and someone you should avoid. The others are right -- why are you pursuing this? Who cares? This sounds like the express to tedious dramaville.
Avoid relationships where shit like this happens. It's a red flag.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 10:34 AM on May 10, 2009
"...her friend was there..."
Sounds like you could check with the third party to corroborate one or the other's story. But really, why dwell on it unless you want to be buddy-buddy with these people, move one.
posted by furtive at 10:36 AM on May 10, 2009
Sounds like you could check with the third party to corroborate one or the other's story. But really, why dwell on it unless you want to be buddy-buddy with these people, move one.
posted by furtive at 10:36 AM on May 10, 2009
According to him, he calls women "fat bitches" and "throws women to the ground". Do you really need to know anything else about this loser?
posted by murrey at 10:37 AM on May 10, 2009 [27 favorites]
posted by murrey at 10:37 AM on May 10, 2009 [27 favorites]
He's your ex. Why does it matter anymore?
posted by dunkadunc at 11:09 AM on May 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by dunkadunc at 11:09 AM on May 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
Would my ex really lie about something like this?
Yes
posted by poppo at 11:11 AM on May 10, 2009 [4 favorites]
Yes
posted by poppo at 11:11 AM on May 10, 2009 [4 favorites]
He said "You believe that fat bitch? Let me tell you about her, she wanted to fuck me and I wouldn't give her the time of day. She couldn't hold a candle to you!" He explained "That night, I stopped by and her friend was there and she was drunk, all over me and I had to throw her unto the floor.
This guy has bigger problems than an inability to be faithful -- like being an asshole. Be glad he's out of your life and move out.
posted by foxy_hedgehog at 11:45 AM on May 10, 2009 [4 favorites]
This guy has bigger problems than an inability to be faithful -- like being an asshole. Be glad he's out of your life and move out.
posted by foxy_hedgehog at 11:45 AM on May 10, 2009 [4 favorites]
Ummm.... I mean move on. You already moved out, or he did.
posted by foxy_hedgehog at 11:45 AM on May 10, 2009
posted by foxy_hedgehog at 11:45 AM on May 10, 2009
And, just to be difficult, it's always possible they're both lying. They're both claiming it was all totally the other person's idea. The truth could be somewhere in between. Heck, they could both be telling the truth from their perspective. Like furtive says, you could check with this third person who may or may not have been there and ask them what they think happened.
From your description, I'd be more inclined to believe her, and think he's covering up a sense of guilt and a sense of hurt (you've just dumped him after all) with bluster. But I'm at several removes from the situation and none of the parties involved, including you, have a neutral perspective.
But really, I agree with the idea that you should try to put it behind you and move on. In a year or so, when the wounds are all a lot less fresh, maybe you can revisit things and look for resolution. But in the meantime, there's little to be gained by prodding at it, unless you're thinking of getting back together with the guy.
posted by hattifattener at 11:48 AM on May 10, 2009
From your description, I'd be more inclined to believe her, and think he's covering up a sense of guilt and a sense of hurt (you've just dumped him after all) with bluster. But I'm at several removes from the situation and none of the parties involved, including you, have a neutral perspective.
But really, I agree with the idea that you should try to put it behind you and move on. In a year or so, when the wounds are all a lot less fresh, maybe you can revisit things and look for resolution. But in the meantime, there's little to be gained by prodding at it, unless you're thinking of getting back together with the guy.
posted by hattifattener at 11:48 AM on May 10, 2009
Best answer: Yes, of course he would lie about something like that because your ex-boyfriend is a psychopath.
Healthy people don't engage in this kind of triangulated, dramatic bullcrap. Seems to me that, somewhere along the line, your Acceptability Meter got knocked out of whack. I'd suggest you get some help in this area, because, judging by your previous askMe questions and your lingering involvement with this person, you're setting yourself up for abusive relationships down the line. It worries me for you, particularly because you've mentioned previously that you struggle with depression and have OCD tendencies. You need some examples of healthy behavior in relationships vs. unhealthy behavior in relationships.
To wit:
Healthy behavior:
- Boyfriend makes eggs. Girlfriend makes coffee. Both eat eggs and drink coffee. Girlfriend pats boyfriend's shoulder, clears dishes, loads dishwasher, goes to take a shower. Boyfriend runs dishwasher, checks fantasy baseball scores, then shoots smack-talking e-mail to fellow fantasy baseballers because CC Sabathia pitched a complete 2 hit shut-out that week, and he has him in two leagues. BF/GF kiss each other on their way out the door to work. Both look forward to seeing each other later. Both have productive, non-dramatic, satisfying days away from each other without obsessing over the other's whereabouts, activities, or depth of commitment.
Unhealthy behavior:
Boyfriend harangues girlfriend over not enough sex/not loving him enough/not telling him the truth/ how much other women would appreciate him so much more/how she's not good enough for him/controls her every move/passive aggressively or aggressively manipulates her through emotional blackmail. BF/GF fight constantly, engage in lengthy, exhausting discussions about the relationship, but seldom have long periods of time where the relationship is simply a constant, loving foundation upon which each build their lives as individuals and as a couple.
Healthy behavior:
Boyfriend meets girlfriend at restaurant. Boyfriend and girlfriend have cheeseburgers, fries and a couple of beers. Boyfriend tells girlfriend about total shitstorm on Metafilter that afternoon. Girlfriend asks if sixcolors was involved. Boyfriend says no, this was about random, unfair comment deletion. Girlfriend smiles and nods, then relays details of her day. Boyfriend nods and smiles, then says that nothing much happened at his work that day, just your basic heads-down programming kind of day. Boyfriend then suggests a trip in the late summer, maybe? Girlfriend says, ooh, that would be cool. Brief mentions of swine flu, recession, etc. Brief mention of whether to see Star Trek in HD or around the corner at the regular, sort of crappy theater. No resolution. Check comes. Both finish beer, pay check, leave.
Unhealthy behavior:
After months of agonizing and frequent askMetafilter questions about relationship, girlfriend finally breaks up with boyfriend. Ex-girlfriend and ex-boyfriend talk on the phone every single day as if they were still involved. Even though they're not. They're just...good friends. He needs her. He's having a hard time of things. She feels guilty for breaking up with him, even though he calls women fat bitches and throws them to the floor by his own admission. Ex-girlfriend suffers nagging doubts about break-up, even though she also suffers nagging doubts about viability of any sort of relationship with ex-boyfriend because, deep down, she knows he's an abusive asshole who makes her feel bad.
Healthy behavior:
Boyfriend and girlfriend break up because relationship doesn't feel right. Both grieve. Both move on. Contact is limited to very occasional "How's it going with you?" e-mail, Facebook message, or lunch. Or, in the alternative, no contact at all.
Unhealthy behavior:
Ex-boyfriend uses ex-mutual friend to get sex and/or make ex-girlfriend jealous because ex-girlfriend told him NOT TO CALL HER EVERY DAY FOR NO REASON BECAUSE THEY ARE BROKEN UP. Ex-girlfriend then sends mixed signal to ex-boyfriend by calling around to find him after he, following her instructions (sort of) has not called her every day, but instead gone trolling around after ex-mutual friend to get sex and/or make ex-girlfriend jealous.
I can't stress enough that it sounds to me like you need to see a therapist about finding a way to get people to stop abusing you, taking you for granted, or leeching off of you for support, love and companionship. Cut all ties with this jerk and focus all of your energy on re-calibrating your notions of what healthy, acceptable, gratifying behavior is. Good relationships have their ups and downs, yes. But this is a chaotic, soul-crushing, toxic waste of your time and you need to get as far away from it as possible.
posted by TryTheTilapia at 12:13 PM on May 10, 2009 [112 favorites]
Healthy people don't engage in this kind of triangulated, dramatic bullcrap. Seems to me that, somewhere along the line, your Acceptability Meter got knocked out of whack. I'd suggest you get some help in this area, because, judging by your previous askMe questions and your lingering involvement with this person, you're setting yourself up for abusive relationships down the line. It worries me for you, particularly because you've mentioned previously that you struggle with depression and have OCD tendencies. You need some examples of healthy behavior in relationships vs. unhealthy behavior in relationships.
To wit:
Healthy behavior:
- Boyfriend makes eggs. Girlfriend makes coffee. Both eat eggs and drink coffee. Girlfriend pats boyfriend's shoulder, clears dishes, loads dishwasher, goes to take a shower. Boyfriend runs dishwasher, checks fantasy baseball scores, then shoots smack-talking e-mail to fellow fantasy baseballers because CC Sabathia pitched a complete 2 hit shut-out that week, and he has him in two leagues. BF/GF kiss each other on their way out the door to work. Both look forward to seeing each other later. Both have productive, non-dramatic, satisfying days away from each other without obsessing over the other's whereabouts, activities, or depth of commitment.
Unhealthy behavior:
Boyfriend harangues girlfriend over not enough sex/not loving him enough/not telling him the truth/ how much other women would appreciate him so much more/how she's not good enough for him/controls her every move/passive aggressively or aggressively manipulates her through emotional blackmail. BF/GF fight constantly, engage in lengthy, exhausting discussions about the relationship, but seldom have long periods of time where the relationship is simply a constant, loving foundation upon which each build their lives as individuals and as a couple.
Healthy behavior:
Boyfriend meets girlfriend at restaurant. Boyfriend and girlfriend have cheeseburgers, fries and a couple of beers. Boyfriend tells girlfriend about total shitstorm on Metafilter that afternoon. Girlfriend asks if sixcolors was involved. Boyfriend says no, this was about random, unfair comment deletion. Girlfriend smiles and nods, then relays details of her day. Boyfriend nods and smiles, then says that nothing much happened at his work that day, just your basic heads-down programming kind of day. Boyfriend then suggests a trip in the late summer, maybe? Girlfriend says, ooh, that would be cool. Brief mentions of swine flu, recession, etc. Brief mention of whether to see Star Trek in HD or around the corner at the regular, sort of crappy theater. No resolution. Check comes. Both finish beer, pay check, leave.
Unhealthy behavior:
After months of agonizing and frequent askMetafilter questions about relationship, girlfriend finally breaks up with boyfriend. Ex-girlfriend and ex-boyfriend talk on the phone every single day as if they were still involved. Even though they're not. They're just...good friends. He needs her. He's having a hard time of things. She feels guilty for breaking up with him, even though he calls women fat bitches and throws them to the floor by his own admission. Ex-girlfriend suffers nagging doubts about break-up, even though she also suffers nagging doubts about viability of any sort of relationship with ex-boyfriend because, deep down, she knows he's an abusive asshole who makes her feel bad.
Healthy behavior:
Boyfriend and girlfriend break up because relationship doesn't feel right. Both grieve. Both move on. Contact is limited to very occasional "How's it going with you?" e-mail, Facebook message, or lunch. Or, in the alternative, no contact at all.
Unhealthy behavior:
Ex-boyfriend uses ex-mutual friend to get sex and/or make ex-girlfriend jealous because ex-girlfriend told him NOT TO CALL HER EVERY DAY FOR NO REASON BECAUSE THEY ARE BROKEN UP. Ex-girlfriend then sends mixed signal to ex-boyfriend by calling around to find him after he, following her instructions (sort of) has not called her every day, but instead gone trolling around after ex-mutual friend to get sex and/or make ex-girlfriend jealous.
I can't stress enough that it sounds to me like you need to see a therapist about finding a way to get people to stop abusing you, taking you for granted, or leeching off of you for support, love and companionship. Cut all ties with this jerk and focus all of your energy on re-calibrating your notions of what healthy, acceptable, gratifying behavior is. Good relationships have their ups and downs, yes. But this is a chaotic, soul-crushing, toxic waste of your time and you need to get as far away from it as possible.
posted by TryTheTilapia at 12:13 PM on May 10, 2009 [112 favorites]
If you've gotten to my comment, please go back and read TryTheTilapia's comment. It should be required reading. It should be printed and posted on refrigerators everywhere.
The neat thing about exes is, you no longer have to care what they say or do. It simply does not matter, because they are part of the past, not the present.
posted by Houstonian at 12:32 PM on May 10, 2009
The neat thing about exes is, you no longer have to care what they say or do. It simply does not matter, because they are part of the past, not the present.
posted by Houstonian at 12:32 PM on May 10, 2009
I've looked through your previous questions, and I must say this loud and clear: You were dating a psychopath. You need to cut this guy out of your life completely for your own safety and security. Ignore him and his comments. Never talk to him again, he's trying to manipulate you, it's SO crystal clear from our outside perspective! It doesn't matter what happened in this situation because he's not in your life anymore. You have the power to make this happen. I highly recommend doing that.
posted by Meagan at 1:29 PM on May 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by Meagan at 1:29 PM on May 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Tilapia, I thank you for a wonderful answer. And to many others who see it better than I do. Thank you. This thing with the friend happened over a year ago while we were dating and he's never been able to sleep with her and I think that pissed him off. Also they did have business meetings but his criticism of her overtime, made her stay away from him and he lost interest in working with her. She told me what happened with that and how he wanted be her "sugar daddy" by buying her a cell phone and paying the bills so she could make business calls to institutions. That was another huge detail. And of course my gut was telling me something wasn't right with his relationship with her. Usually guys who have bad things to say about women are hiding something anyway. It's going to be a long road but working on myself for awhile is going to be best. Thanks again guys.
posted by InterestedInKnowing at 2:38 PM on May 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by InterestedInKnowing at 2:38 PM on May 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
I wish you the very best of luck. I also encourage you to keep following your entirely correct instincts to stay away from this person, to avoid men who speak of and treat women like garbage, and to cultivate relationships that make you feel good about yourself. Cliche, of course, but life really is too short to waste time, effort and energy on this sort of baloney.
posted by TryTheTilapia at 3:20 PM on May 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by TryTheTilapia at 3:20 PM on May 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
avoid men who speak of and treat women like garbage
Absolutely. One of my golden rules of dating is that you never, ever, ever give the time of day to someone who tells you what a bitch his ex-girlfriend is while he's trying to woo you, or who expresses any negative generalizations about women (e.g., women are crazy/gold-diggers/dumb bitches/etc.). It is the red-flaggiest of all red flags, because sooner or later, a guy like that will put you in the same category, no matter how well he seems to treat you at first.
posted by scody at 3:33 PM on May 10, 2009 [20 favorites]
Absolutely. One of my golden rules of dating is that you never, ever, ever give the time of day to someone who tells you what a bitch his ex-girlfriend is while he's trying to woo you, or who expresses any negative generalizations about women (e.g., women are crazy/gold-diggers/dumb bitches/etc.). It is the red-flaggiest of all red flags, because sooner or later, a guy like that will put you in the same category, no matter how well he seems to treat you at first.
posted by scody at 3:33 PM on May 10, 2009 [20 favorites]
I call mind games on this one. TryTheTilapia already nailed it, so I can only take what details you have given us and tell you to get the sweet fuuuuuuuck away from this guy (and possibly her as well). Hang in there, there are much better things out there for you.
posted by futureisunwritten at 4:59 PM on May 10, 2009
posted by futureisunwritten at 4:59 PM on May 10, 2009
It's crummy to think he cheated, or tried to cheat, while you were together. I doubt you can discover the truth. \
posted by theora55 at 6:51 PM on May 10, 2009
posted by theora55 at 6:51 PM on May 10, 2009
Response by poster: That's another thing theora. I was so hurt when I heard all of that. I was so mad at him. Still mad at him but mad at the way he can get me so entangled into feeling sorry for him. It's awful!
posted by InterestedInKnowing at 7:07 PM on May 10, 2009
posted by InterestedInKnowing at 7:07 PM on May 10, 2009
So, that's why you haven't been talking to me? Unreal!" and proceeded to tell me how much I have hurt him and claimed I was never there for him, but meanwhile he was confusing me.
The surest sign of a manipulator is telling you your feelings are not legitimate.
posted by Ironmouth at 8:51 PM on May 10, 2009 [11 favorites]
The surest sign of a manipulator is telling you your feelings are not legitimate.
posted by Ironmouth at 8:51 PM on May 10, 2009 [11 favorites]
You were wronged and you're trying to make sense of that. Very understandable...however,to use a much overworked expression...he was "just not that into you"..The realization of that is often tough to take. It seems you are still grappling with the reality of this. Of the two of you, you are the higher quality person (at least in the faithfulness department) so you would be well served to cut all ties with this man completely. You do not share the same core values. You need to find a person whose core values are similar to yours. Woman often have a very difficult time absorbing how calculating and deceitful men can be (especially if there is the hint of a possibility of "getting some"). I hope you find someone who puts you in the number one slot. You deserve that. Reading between the lines, I sense that you want to fix this guy. You're not going to be able to. He can never be trusted now..and you would be very foolish to take up with him again.
posted by naplesyellow at 11:34 PM on May 10, 2009
posted by naplesyellow at 11:34 PM on May 10, 2009
Yes. It is possible.
posted by electroboy at 7:05 AM on May 11, 2009
posted by electroboy at 7:05 AM on May 11, 2009
Having come here from your new AskMe question, I will say this. If she had been the disloyal one, do you really think she would have brought it up? Instead, she brought it up and he denied it. Act accordingly.
posted by Ironmouth at 12:02 PM on August 27, 2009
posted by Ironmouth at 12:02 PM on August 27, 2009
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by box at 10:13 AM on May 10, 2009