Buy Kid-Size Earplugs?

May 5, 2009 6:12 PM

My next door neighbor has a terrible hardcore band that has started jamming weeknights. Not super late, but until ~10pm, which is very late when you're trying to get a six year old to bed. It's more than loud enough to keep her awake, and even watching TV would be difficult. Going with the assumption that he's a dick and won't stop, what can I do, if anything? I'm in Toronto, in a live/work (legal) studio space, where I *think* the noise laws are between 7am and 11pm.
posted by glider to Law & Government (40 answers total)

Going with the assumption that he's a dick and won't stop

Why assume? Have you tried asking him nicely and non-confrontationally?
posted by dersins at 6:21 PM on May 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

Why go with the assumption that he's a dick and won't stop? I mean, he probably is, and he probably won't, but it couldn't hurt to ask, right?
posted by Zozo at 6:21 PM on May 5, 2009

Yes, that.
posted by Zozo at 6:21 PM on May 5, 2009

It is possible that perfectly good people with decent intentions occasionally experience lapses of judgement or are ignorant of the effect their actions have on others. Judge him or her when you've broached the situation with him or her face to face.

um, move?

What? How about communicating with the person reasonably first?
posted by fire&wings at 6:27 PM on May 5, 2009

Maybe suggest to him getting a storage unit to practice in? That's what all the bands when I was that age were doing.
posted by ctmf at 6:31 PM on May 5, 2009

Is the studio space sound proofed? Find out, and if it isn't, come back and ask how to best sound proof a studio and then print that and give it to him.
posted by The Straightener at 6:32 PM on May 5, 2009

According to Toronto bylaws:

"No person shall make, cause or permit noise or vibration, at any time, which is likely to disturb
the quiet, peace, rest, enjoyment, comfort or convenience of the inhabitants of the City."

You can view the entire PDF file of the law here.
posted by MaryDellamorte at 6:34 PM on May 5, 2009

What the others said, don't assume. If he's only just started, he may not be aware he's being a nuisance. Go around and ask politely. If that fails, ask again (in case he didn't hear you over the hardcore).

If that fails, start logging it so you have a record of persistent nuisance and then contact the local council. The local equivalent of environmental health should be able to guide you on what the limits are and what your next steps are. You're entitled to something I think they phrase "quiet enjoyment of your abode", I expect something similar applies even in live/work spaces.

But, that's only assuming that asking nicely in the first place doesn't work.
posted by arcticseal at 6:36 PM on May 5, 2009

I would start by leaving a polite note that includes a phone number or an email address (ideally, not your basic one).

If that doesn't work, I would try showing up at one of the late practices with your six-year old in her pajamas, rubbing her eyes.

If that doesn't work, he's a dick, and you should call the cops.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 6:47 PM on May 5, 2009

Even if you really need to take legal action or file some sort of bylaw complaint, it is much less likely to be successful if you do so without speaking to the neighbour first.

I would mention the child-bedtime issues in talking about it with him. Then you're describing a problem that needs solving rather than just expressing an opinion that the music's too loud.
posted by winston at 6:50 PM on May 5, 2009

Response by poster: Why assume? Have you tried asking him nicely and non-confrontationally?

Oh, yes, of course, as have others.
posted by glider at 6:58 PM on May 5, 2009

Going with the assumption that he's a dick and won't stop, what can I do, if anything?

Don't assume that. Don't pull out the law in the first meeting. Start by talking about your daughter. Then say you're sure he understands you want to do anything to help her. The answer must be yes. Then say you want to come to an agreement.about helping your daughter get enough sleep. Have an idea of what you want before going in and forwardly suggest it. Make it easy for him to say yes. Doing that involves not getting his ego involved at all. Avoid comments about the music.

This works on the same principle as "You don't need to see his identification, these aren't the droids you're looking for.
posted by Ironmouth at 6:59 PM on May 5, 2009

Response by poster: If that doesn't work, I would try showing up at one of the late practices with your six-year old in her pajamas, rubbing her eyes.

This was also done btw, to no avail...
posted by glider at 7:02 PM on May 5, 2009

You might say more about your previous tactics to focus the crowd here, then.

Also, you haven't mentioned whether you and the neighbor own or rent. If the latter, a landlord can be a useful intermediary.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 7:05 PM on May 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

Why are you not calling the landlord and/or the cops? This guy is being a public nuisance, plain and simple.
posted by gnutron at 7:06 PM on May 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

Have you tried playing some white noise in the kiddo's room? It's not perfect, but it does help.

http://www.simplynoise.com/
posted by 26.2 at 7:15 PM on May 5, 2009

Ironman has some excellent points. In fact, I remember similar points made in a speech class I took years ago. It had basically a method or a system of guidelines for addressing crowds in various degrees of agreement with the message you have to give. For instance, those crowds in "extreme agreement" with your message are best asked rhetorical questions having an answer of "NO!"

Do you want higher taxes?
NO!
Do you want more government?
NO!
Do you want Joey Bagodonuts for President?
NOOOOOO!

When addressing an audience (or in this case a band) who are hostile to your message. . . seek rhetorical questions that prompt or urge him to say, "Yes." A quiet "yes" is usually the best kind in this situation.

Seek common ground. Makes it easier for everyone to say "yes." Get creative. You know the situation better than anyone. You know what things both you and he would say "yes" to.

Assuming he'll actually follow through (that's another story), getting him to be a "yes" man is a good strategy.
posted by Lord Fancy Pants at 7:16 PM on May 5, 2009 [3 favorites]

Whoops!

You showed up with your six year old in her jammies and still no results?

I'd call the cops. Sometimes there's just no "reachin'" people.
posted by Lord Fancy Pants at 7:20 PM on May 5, 2009

416-808-2222 is the police's non-emergency line. Calling it to report noise complaints is practically a recreational sport in our neighbourhood (Cabbagetown), but I have to admit it's fairly effective.
posted by DrJohnEvans at 7:26 PM on May 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

Seconding The World Famous. I have been in a lot of bands over the years.

But if you haven't talked to him about it, do so first. Mention sound-proofing. Do not bring up the actual music in any way.

But definitely talk to him first, before bringing the cops into it. You'd be surprised, a lot of us Hardcore-types are actually more understanding and sympathetic than the image and sound portrays...
posted by peewinkle at 7:27 PM on May 5, 2009

Ouch. Did you try going over there screaming your bloody head off? Call the cops. Ridiculous. Noise ordinances get a lot of leeway, and you're going to be the more sympathetic figure.

Also, yes, print out how to soundproof a room.

/everyone I know rents studio space in industrial neighborhoods so that they're not dicks to their neighbors
posted by desuetude at 7:34 PM on May 5, 2009

I accept the advice about not mentioning the music -- which is I assume simply to avoid getting the guy's back up, toward a constructive resolution -- but it's a little rich when it *is* "terrible," and thoughtlessly imposed on others. Wouldn't it be an interesting world if those practicing loudly, or playing their stereos at deafening volume, had the burden of meeting the standards of all those in their effective audiences?
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 8:03 PM on May 5, 2009

Lots of good advice here...I just wanted to address the legal/bylaw side of it, since this is something that confuses a lot of people.

Most people seem to believe that city noise bylaws only kick in at a certain time of night, say 11pm. This is not true, at least in theory - rather, noise bylaws apply all the time, but get much stricter after 11pm, or whatever.

Now, in practice, most noise issues (partying neighbours, etc.) won't get dealt with by your local cops and/or bylaw officers until after 11pm. It's easier to enforce the later bylaw, and there's a good chance that partying neighbours aren't violating the daytime law anyway. But there are exceptions. We had a barking dog in our neighbourhood once that was left outside to bark for the entire day nearly every day for a while. We called the city, who referred us to animal control, who resolved the issue. I also remember hearing about a story in a place I used to live where a garage left a gas generator running outside all day every day, and got hit up with a fine.

In your case, if you do decide to go the police route (make sure you consider your other options first, as others have stated), then I think you'd have a case.
posted by hiteleven at 8:49 PM on May 5, 2009

Call the cops. Do it every night until they show up.

Alternatively, find a way to blast some music into his place at some unfavorable hour.
posted by chrisinseoul at 9:45 PM on May 5, 2009

Are you sure you are in the right environment for a child? A live/work space is most definitely not a 'residential' space, at least not here in the U.S. I live in an artist colony, and the residential laws do not apply the same. It is to allow the artists room to create, specifically without having to worry about the residential norms. It is to allow a different living environment to exist other than the standard one we generally think of for families.
posted by Vaike at 9:51 PM on May 5, 2009 [2 favorites]

Seconding Vaike.
The guy only practices until 10pm, and to a musician living the dream with his own "live/work (legal) studio space" and who may not have a 9 to 5 himself, that would have to feel like he's bending over backwards to be cool with the neighbors already.

Couldn't you soundproof your own place? Wouldn't that be better than being the guy who calls the cops all the time?
posted by Methylviolet at 10:09 PM on May 5, 2009

I second the suggestion to let the police deal with it. It is polite to talk first, and maybe leave a warning note... but after that, repeated confrontations are not constructive and perhaps not even safe. I'm dealing with the exact same situation (also in Toronto) with a challenging neighbour who routinely cranks horrendous house music at 5AM on a Sunday night. I have had two shouting matches with him and left a "warning note". I called the police to talk about my options and they said that confrontations were not productive - call them as much as need be but understand they need to deal with emergencies first. It makes for a bad situation but if you've warned somebody what more can you do? Playing loud music repeatedly is passive agressive, the offending individual is essentially making it YOUR responsibility to quell the disturbance. Calling the police is the easiest solution and if the neighbour has a problem with it they can change their activity.. or not and eventually face consequences of some sort.
posted by serial_consign at 10:21 PM on May 5, 2009

Seriously OT people. Glider wanted to know about kids earplugs. To which I say: I dunno exactly but I do know the cheap foam ones are very easy to cut. Since they expand as part of their normal function, they don't need to be perfect cylinders to work. Don't make them too small though since you don't want to have to take the wee one to the ER to remove your hacked up earplugs.

They also might not help much. Earplugs do dandy at blocking out high and middle frequencies but won't block low frequencies very well which is probably what you are hearing and feeling anyway.
posted by chairface at 10:23 PM on May 5, 2009

Oops. Realized I didn't answer the question:

White noise.
Move her room to the other side of the place if possible. (Or, minimally, move the location of her bed)
Hang heavy curtains to block some of the noise.
Let her get used to it (I have lived outside bars and train depots. Amazing what a month will change in my tolerance.)
Make sure the windows and doors are properly sealed.
Also, I am not sure of her bedtime and the bands start time, but sometimes one can sleep through loud sounds if they go to bed and fall asleep before the sound actually starts.
posted by Vaike at 10:41 PM on May 5, 2009

I think the earplug thing was a joke?

I'd also say call the cops. I have asked my brother (a cop) about this very question; noise issues are indeed covered by by-laws - the regular police don't really give out tickets for it, apparently there are special by-law officers that handle it. They will, however, show up and ask the noisemakers to stop. if the noise doesn't stop, and they have to come back, their requests for quiet will become significantly less polite. Calling them on a slow night will also be more effective - friday and saturday you're less likely to get a response.
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 10:58 PM on May 5, 2009

Double check your lease/homeowners agreement. My landlord's son(!) moved in above me and started practicing with his band. I checked the lease my landlord had given me, and there was a clause stating that the apartments could not be used to play or rehearse musical instruments.
posted by jrichards at 7:16 AM on May 6, 2009

One thing that I've found with dealing with neighbors is that dealing with these types of conversations always works better in the light of day. When someone is interrupted while they are doing something (jamming, partying, drinking, having domestic disturbances, etc.) is that they will tend to get defensive. They are enjoying themselves- nobody wants their buzz harshed.

So try again to have a nice conversation during the day outside the heat of battle. Explain that you appreciate their right and desire to enjoy themselves in their own homes. But that it is infringing on your own enjoyment. And that their right to have a good time is no more important than your right to peace and quiet. See if you can negotiate some rules (that just happen to be in line with the noise laws of your area).

(Something like this just happened in my apartment building- the neighborhood booze hound / party mom was partying it up at 11:30 with someone on the third floor while her kid was asleep (alone) in her place on the second floor. The guy in the apt below the party and next to the sleeping kid got awakened and decided to use this time to angrily vacuum his carpets. In doing this, he was banging into the shared wall between his place and the sleeping kid's room. The sleeping kid got spooked and ran upstairs to mom. Mom, drunk and annoyed, went downstairs to confront the neighbor. She had the gall to claim that she was in the right because she is "young". Despite the fact that she is only a couple of years younger than the annoyed neighbor. It would have been hilarious, if the yelling in the hallway hadn't awakened me as well- younger than all of them. The next day they all kissed and made up.)
posted by gjc at 7:40 AM on May 6, 2009

I'm in Toronto, in a live/work (legal) studio space

Like an artists' co-op? I think a lot of people aren't reading the question and imagine some quiet suburban street, but that's not the case at all, is it? Buildings like that tend to be designed specifically so people can "get their art on" without having to worry about hassling their neighbors.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 7:48 AM on May 6, 2009

Yes, call the cops, repeat as needed.

Also, get together with neighbors and contact city councilors as a group. Nice way to get to know the neighbors, and neighborhood groups can be very effective.

Consider having a soundproofing party, and affixing lots of foam to their walls. Styrofoam, old mattresses, the innards of old furniture, there's tons of free foam around. Carpeting works too, and soundproofing floors helps a lot.
posted by theora55 at 9:29 AM on May 6, 2009

Unless I'm vastly misunderstanding what a "live/work (legal) studio space" most of the advice here sucks and the person being a dick isn't the guy with the hardcore band, or at least he's not the only dick. Don't call the cops. The purpose of those types of places is to provide more flexibility for the creatively inclined, not to cater towards families. If you want the latter, then move to a family friendly and oriented neighborhood. If you like the other benefits of the former then find a way to work with the guy: soundproofing one or both of your spaces, moving your daughter's sleeping area, etc. Soundproofing doesn't have to be expensive and if you work from both sides of the wall you can significantly mitigate the volume. Volume is another thing. See if he's willing to practice at a lower volume though, unfortunately, that's most dependent on the drummer.
posted by 6550 at 9:58 AM on May 6, 2009

nthing the response that your question doesn't make it sound like the band is in the wrong here. Artist live/work space, with a noise cutoff at 11pm (according to your question), and the band stops at 10pm? Sounds like you want to have your boho cake and eat your suburban family life too.

Condolences, I've lived within earshot of a terrible band practicing too, it can be very dispiriting. And apologies if we've mischaracterized your living situation. If it's an artist co-op, maybe you can talk to the landlord about other units in the building you could move to, further away from the problem?
posted by arcanecrowbar at 11:24 AM on May 6, 2009

I'm a visual artist (non-musician) and I have lived in normal apartments and live/work arrangements. I agree the band is not in the wrong here if you are in some sort of artist co-op setting. I don't want to sound like a dick, because I sympathize, but if you want peace and quiet move to the suburbs. The whole point of being in a live/work space is so that you don't have to worry about angry dads banging on your door at 10PM. There are entire communities, towns, cities, and neighborhoods built around the family life and a live/work space is not one of them. The reason artists, musicians, etc. move to live/work arrangements is so they can be around other people who aren't working 9-to-5's and do whatever they need to do whenever they need to do it.

I live in a normal apartment now and am constantly worried that when I'm up at 3AM working, listening to music, and moving equipment around that I am going to piss off one of my neighbors (never had a complaint or anything, I basically walk on egg shells past midnight). I previously lived in a live/work space and it was the expectation that moving ladders and other heavy things around, blasting music, and in general keeping really late hours was the norm because you know, it's a work space too. The few family type people in my building who were slumming it with their young artist neighbors understood that that was the price of being in that environment (and we all got along great).
posted by bradbane at 7:28 PM on May 6, 2009

Response by poster: Noise cut off at 11 is what I assumed was Toronto law, not the building/lease. On second reading from the links above, I suspect that noise earlier is a legal issue as well if I really wanted to call the cops and have them make him be quiet -- which I don't... Part of the reason I moved here (having lived in a regular apartment last year) is to have the freedom to do a little more -- I'm building a submarine in my main space so I definitely do things here I couldn't at my old place... I empathize with his needs, but need to come to some kind of a compromise. There are a number of other kids in this space as well as plenty of live-only studios, so it's not like this is a space where there's an expectation of noise at all hours... I haven't met a single neighbor that doesn't have problems with this guy and it seems like asking for a compromise makes him feel like he needs to make more noise.
posted by glider at 6:04 AM on May 7, 2009

Response by poster: (Even if he'd share his schedule so that I could plan around it, would be a big step in the right direction).
posted by glider at 6:05 AM on May 7, 2009

Two things: Since it is a live/work space, it very well may be zoned commercial or even manufacturing, which has different noise ordinances than residential. But even still, they sometimes have requirements that musicians are responsible for soundproofing (which, if they were serious, they would want so outside noises do not distract them as well). Or the landlord may have their own agreement as to soundproofing that the neighbor agreed to and now is not honoring. You can check on that.

Two: if he just started, I would give him some time to play, if you can, and in a few weeks to a month try to negotiate a schedule. So many people start out gung ho and then they kind of fade off, so by inertia, you may have less and less of a problem, and if they are really that bad, you may not have problem at all in awhile.

Then again, I am amazed that they are maintaining the 10 p.m. cutoff time. That is pretty darn early for musicians...
posted by Vaike at 9:30 AM on May 7, 2009