Can I help my 19yr old brother with little hope for his future?
April 20, 2009 8:01 PM Subscribe
Can I help my 19yr old brother with little hope for his future?
My brother is 19 and about to be kicked out of the house with no real skills or prospects of making anything of his life. He dropped out of high school, had his license suspended, has been through a string of min wage jobs. My mom/brother almost had him ready to join the military and he got his GED, but that window has now close due to tightening standards and his inability/unwillingness to pass the drug test. He has made passing interest in various technical or community college programs, but will never follow through on any of them.
He has had authority issues his entire life, constantly clashing with teachers, bosses and most of all our parents. He constantly blames anyone in an authority position, or maybe the world in general, for the perceived unfairness of his life. Yet objectively, he’s had every opportunity to succeed if had made any semblance of effort on his own behalf, and his current crappy outlook is the result of years of constantly choosing the self destructive path and deliberately ignoring well meaning advice from all sources, especially from parents and teachers. In a pop-psychology sense, the attention he gets from acting out and playing the victim is greater than the reward of actually making something for himself.
My Dad has given him an ultimatum to be out of the house by the end of the month. He has no realistic prospect of being able to support himself on his own, so I don’t see how that is possible, but I believe the seriousness of the ultimatum.
I am supposed to be staying there for a couple months this summer while studying for the bar exam. In the past I’ve made efforts to give him advice: “stay in school, D is for diploma!” “how about looking at this EMT training program?” and “maybe you should join the army for a few years, it would give you a nice salary and you might like it” but he’s never given my advice any more credence than anyone else’s, and I’m confident that he looks at me as an kind of stand-in parent. Is there anything I can do to help him out of the rather hopeless bed he’s made for himself?
My brother is 19 and about to be kicked out of the house with no real skills or prospects of making anything of his life. He dropped out of high school, had his license suspended, has been through a string of min wage jobs. My mom/brother almost had him ready to join the military and he got his GED, but that window has now close due to tightening standards and his inability/unwillingness to pass the drug test. He has made passing interest in various technical or community college programs, but will never follow through on any of them.
He has had authority issues his entire life, constantly clashing with teachers, bosses and most of all our parents. He constantly blames anyone in an authority position, or maybe the world in general, for the perceived unfairness of his life. Yet objectively, he’s had every opportunity to succeed if had made any semblance of effort on his own behalf, and his current crappy outlook is the result of years of constantly choosing the self destructive path and deliberately ignoring well meaning advice from all sources, especially from parents and teachers. In a pop-psychology sense, the attention he gets from acting out and playing the victim is greater than the reward of actually making something for himself.
My Dad has given him an ultimatum to be out of the house by the end of the month. He has no realistic prospect of being able to support himself on his own, so I don’t see how that is possible, but I believe the seriousness of the ultimatum.
I am supposed to be staying there for a couple months this summer while studying for the bar exam. In the past I’ve made efforts to give him advice: “stay in school, D is for diploma!” “how about looking at this EMT training program?” and “maybe you should join the army for a few years, it would give you a nice salary and you might like it” but he’s never given my advice any more credence than anyone else’s, and I’m confident that he looks at me as an kind of stand-in parent. Is there anything I can do to help him out of the rather hopeless bed he’s made for himself?
The best help may be to let the little birdie be pushed out of the nest. He'll fall, it will hurt, and eventually he'll figure it out. The parenting he may need from you would be if you see him really sliding downward -- meth or crack use, etc. But it seems that if you rescue him at this juncture, you're not helping at all.
There's a difference between helping and being a friend and sibling. If you can figure that out and stay supportive without trying to fix his life, you'll be golden.
posted by hippybear at 8:07 PM on April 20, 2009
There's a difference between helping and being a friend and sibling. If you can figure that out and stay supportive without trying to fix his life, you'll be golden.
posted by hippybear at 8:07 PM on April 20, 2009
Have you asked him what he wants to do? I don't mean that in a snarky way, but I'm just saying that it might be easier for you to help him along a path of his own choosing, rather than one that is forced on him. If he shows some interest, help grease the skids a little. Interested in community college? Fill out the application with him. Thinking about the military? Call a recruiter and set up an appointment, then drive him to it (based on family experience I'd suggest Air Force, actually).
posted by Rock Steady at 8:08 PM on April 20, 2009
posted by Rock Steady at 8:08 PM on April 20, 2009
My brother is in a similar situation. He just turned 20. He did finish high school, and went to college for a few semesters, but dropped out. After months of being job-less (and living on his own), he got a job through a family contact. Now he's working in a grocery store, hating it. My dad pays his cell phone bill, because my brother would have it disconnected otherwise, and we wouldn't be able to get in touch with him. After months of trying ("hey, my guidance counselor has some open spots, interested?", "there's a six-month course in something you're interested in starting next month, and it's free!", I've stopped "nagging" and now I'm just... his sister. I avoid talk of his future, but I'm trying to get to know him better. He's choosing a different path. I know he'll be fine in the end, but it is really hard to watch.
I'm not sure that this (long) reply really has anything helpful, but just know that, as a sibling, you're probably in a better position than your parents are to be his ally. That's what I'm trying to be.
posted by OLechat at 8:11 PM on April 20, 2009 [2 favorites]
I'm not sure that this (long) reply really has anything helpful, but just know that, as a sibling, you're probably in a better position than your parents are to be his ally. That's what I'm trying to be.
posted by OLechat at 8:11 PM on April 20, 2009 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: He can't get into the military. That window is closed.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:13 PM on April 20, 2009
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:13 PM on April 20, 2009
He sounds like the kind of kid who's going to have to fall down before he realizes how serious life is. If I were you, I would let him know you're there for him with completely judgment-free advice when he needs you. Advice... not anything else. He may be grateful for a list of job ads when he realizes he can't afford bread without his parents' help. Check in on him now and then, too, so that he doesn't feel completely abandoned and leans on negative influences to get himself through. But I wouldn't do anything more than that. He needs to grow up. Fast. And he never will if he doesn't see the importance on his own.
posted by katillathehun at 8:16 PM on April 20, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by katillathehun at 8:16 PM on April 20, 2009 [1 favorite]
I am supposed to be staying there for a couple months this summer while studying for the bar exam.
do you want to be in the middle of whatever drama is going down while you are trying to study to pass the bar? you obviously care about everyone in the family, but it might be best to be a little selfish here; especially since you can only control yourself in life.
posted by the aloha at 8:16 PM on April 20, 2009
do you want to be in the middle of whatever drama is going down while you are trying to study to pass the bar? you obviously care about everyone in the family, but it might be best to be a little selfish here; especially since you can only control yourself in life.
posted by the aloha at 8:16 PM on April 20, 2009
Response by poster: do you want to be in the middle of whatever drama is going down while you are trying to study to pass the bar? you obviously care about everyone in the family, but it might be best to be a little selfish here; especially since you can only control yourself in life.
Thanks for the concern but there's no other option. Not the best time to be a new law graduate.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:23 PM on April 20, 2009
Thanks for the concern but there's no other option. Not the best time to be a new law graduate.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:23 PM on April 20, 2009
Not the best time to be a new law graduate.
hear that. i wish you luck passing while in a pressure cooker at home. as for your original question, i concur with what most everyone else here is saying.
posted by the aloha at 8:28 PM on April 20, 2009
hear that. i wish you luck passing while in a pressure cooker at home. as for your original question, i concur with what most everyone else here is saying.
posted by the aloha at 8:28 PM on April 20, 2009
Military is closed to him? Wow. After all the relaxed admission standards because two active wars have decimated the enrollment pool...
posted by hippybear at 8:32 PM on April 20, 2009
posted by hippybear at 8:32 PM on April 20, 2009
If he won't heed anybody's advice, then let him find out for himself, it's probably the best way to go about it. I was pretty useless/messed up/no future at that age, and definitely had to figure myself and my life out alone. Too long to go into details, but a couple of years failing made me desperate to get a handle on things.
Keep an eye on him, and don't let him go over the brink, but let him figure it out. At the moment all you can do is offer solutions for problems he can't understand or won't see.
posted by Sova at 8:42 PM on April 20, 2009
Keep an eye on him, and don't let him go over the brink, but let him figure it out. At the moment all you can do is offer solutions for problems he can't understand or won't see.
posted by Sova at 8:42 PM on April 20, 2009
It sounds like you and your brother have had the same opportunities in life. Intelligence, a stable family life, supportive and loving parents. Believe it or not, kicking your brother out could prove to be the best thing for him in the long run.
If you believe "what don't kill you makes you stronger" than dont do anything to lessen his lesson, while still offering a brotherly shoulder.
Many leaders in art and psychology have had such a start.
I can hear Freud hypothosizing. If your little brother is given a chance to be on his own, he will develop his own identity, rather than be TD's little brother and growing in your thick shaded canopy.
This:
"Second or middle children usually bemoan their fate as being ignored by everyone in the family. They may grow resentful or all the attention given to the oldest and youngest of the family. Second born children will often try to be the exact opposite in personality, interests, etc. from the first born child. S/he will often do almost anything for parental attention, even if that means being naughty. Parents tend to be much easier and less demanding on the second and third children. Middle or second children have to compete to be heard or noticed, and therefore crave the spotlight in other ways. They may be the loud, boisterous child in school. They may be the center of all their friends' events. "
posted by Acacia at 8:47 PM on April 20, 2009
If you believe "what don't kill you makes you stronger" than dont do anything to lessen his lesson, while still offering a brotherly shoulder.
Many leaders in art and psychology have had such a start.
I can hear Freud hypothosizing. If your little brother is given a chance to be on his own, he will develop his own identity, rather than be TD's little brother and growing in your thick shaded canopy.
This:
"Second or middle children usually bemoan their fate as being ignored by everyone in the family. They may grow resentful or all the attention given to the oldest and youngest of the family. Second born children will often try to be the exact opposite in personality, interests, etc. from the first born child. S/he will often do almost anything for parental attention, even if that means being naughty. Parents tend to be much easier and less demanding on the second and third children. Middle or second children have to compete to be heard or noticed, and therefore crave the spotlight in other ways. They may be the loud, boisterous child in school. They may be the center of all their friends' events. "
posted by Acacia at 8:47 PM on April 20, 2009
I agree with katillathehun. Take him aside, give him your phone number, and tell him that no matter what happens - and things might be rough - he can give you a call and count on a friendly listening ear. Let him know you won't have money to help and can't give him a place to live, but that you're there for him and that you want him to be happy.
I can sympathize with you a bit; my brother had some similar issues and bounced around quite a lot during and after high school. Eventually he found some work he liked in retail bookselling, developed a side trade as a rare book dealer, then decided recently, in his early 30s, to go to technical school to learn deisel engine repair. He really enjoys this hands-on, independent, problem-solving work. But if any of us had tried to force it on him at age 18, no way would that have worked.
It turned out that all our ideas for him were wrong, and that he was terribly sensitive, like a raw nerve, from long years of trying to deal with expectations and having a sense of always playing catch-up. It sounds like he has at least one older sibling - you - who is on a professional track and probably gets a lot of praise and may feel like he has never measured up to your standard of performance. Let him get out on his own for a while and breathe, and see that nobody really is actually concerned about that stuff outside of his own family.
This is total armchair psychology, but I feel like I see this pattern happen in some families: when parents have high expectations, often one kid will do somersaults trying to meet or exceed the expectation, and win the parents' approval and eventually self-approval, while the other kid 'opts out' and drops out, rebels, refuses, gets angry, or lacks interest. I don't think it's about loving negative attention so much as resisting the imposition of expectations. It's possible he just needs to be loved and accepted for who he is, not who he could be if he achieves his potential. Don't force anything. Let him taste a little bit of life on his own, and don't give him any more ideas or advice about what he should do for a living unless he asks you. Lend a hand if he needs something practical that you can provide, but don't enable him slacking, either. But chances are, he might just need to be free of how everybody else sees him before he can see anything that's inside himself.
posted by Miko at 8:49 PM on April 20, 2009 [3 favorites]
I can sympathize with you a bit; my brother had some similar issues and bounced around quite a lot during and after high school. Eventually he found some work he liked in retail bookselling, developed a side trade as a rare book dealer, then decided recently, in his early 30s, to go to technical school to learn deisel engine repair. He really enjoys this hands-on, independent, problem-solving work. But if any of us had tried to force it on him at age 18, no way would that have worked.
It turned out that all our ideas for him were wrong, and that he was terribly sensitive, like a raw nerve, from long years of trying to deal with expectations and having a sense of always playing catch-up. It sounds like he has at least one older sibling - you - who is on a professional track and probably gets a lot of praise and may feel like he has never measured up to your standard of performance. Let him get out on his own for a while and breathe, and see that nobody really is actually concerned about that stuff outside of his own family.
This is total armchair psychology, but I feel like I see this pattern happen in some families: when parents have high expectations, often one kid will do somersaults trying to meet or exceed the expectation, and win the parents' approval and eventually self-approval, while the other kid 'opts out' and drops out, rebels, refuses, gets angry, or lacks interest. I don't think it's about loving negative attention so much as resisting the imposition of expectations. It's possible he just needs to be loved and accepted for who he is, not who he could be if he achieves his potential. Don't force anything. Let him taste a little bit of life on his own, and don't give him any more ideas or advice about what he should do for a living unless he asks you. Lend a hand if he needs something practical that you can provide, but don't enable him slacking, either. But chances are, he might just need to be free of how everybody else sees him before he can see anything that's inside himself.
posted by Miko at 8:49 PM on April 20, 2009 [3 favorites]
I can assure you that if you are a law school grad living at home you will be seen as an extension of your parents no matter what you do to avoid that. Tell him you are there for advice and moral support (not $) whenever he wants. WHen you want a study break on a Thursday night, call him up and buy him a beer. Little interactions like that go a long way to establishing a bond and trust.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 8:54 PM on April 20, 2009
posted by JohnnyGunn at 8:54 PM on April 20, 2009
My Dad has given him an ultimatum to be out of the house by the end of the month. He has no realistic prospect of being able to support himself on his own, so I don’t see how that is possible,
Trust me, he will figure it out. And it won't hurt him to have to take responsibility for himself.
posted by fshgrl at 9:02 PM on April 20, 2009
Trust me, he will figure it out. And it won't hurt him to have to take responsibility for himself.
posted by fshgrl at 9:02 PM on April 20, 2009
You know what's crazy? A lot - a lot - of people who seem pretty darned hopeless in their early adult lives ultimately wind up finding their own paths a little further on down the road ... I'm 34 now and in the past couple of years have re-connected with a surprising number of friends who'd dropped out of college (or who had never gone for one reason or another, some of which involved unpleasant incidents with the law, even) but who are now doing things that truly make them happy and that they are truly good at - from video editing, to adjunct professoring, to freelance art, to one who is even a well-respected accountant (oh, horrors! ;) As someone who had grown up wholeheartedly committed to the idea that one's trajectory through life had to start in childhood and continue with no side-tracks whatsoever clear through to retirement (although I came to question this in my mid-twenties), this continues to be a refreshing and delightful surprise to me.
Which is to say, I suppose, that maybe your best bet right now is to take a longer-range view, and maybe even make sure your little brother knows that you are doing so. There's nothing worse than feeling utterly rudderless in life and knowing that everyone you care about perceives you as such - it's SCARY to be young and seeking when everyone else seems to know what their path is supposed to be, and sometimes the most important thing in the world is just to know that there's somebody you can count on not to dismiss you no matter WHAT you're currently doing, and whom you can trust not to judge you even if right now you're not entirely what you want to be (and if you still don't quite know what you want to be!).
As the older sibling, maybe the best thing you can do is let your little brother know that you care about him, that you want to see him be happy, but that you'll stand by him and won't write him off even if he doesn't yet quite know just what it's going to take for him to be happy and fulfilled ... sometimes I really wish I had done that sooner with some of those friends of mine, to be honest.
posted by DingoMutt at 9:07 PM on April 20, 2009 [4 favorites]
Which is to say, I suppose, that maybe your best bet right now is to take a longer-range view, and maybe even make sure your little brother knows that you are doing so. There's nothing worse than feeling utterly rudderless in life and knowing that everyone you care about perceives you as such - it's SCARY to be young and seeking when everyone else seems to know what their path is supposed to be, and sometimes the most important thing in the world is just to know that there's somebody you can count on not to dismiss you no matter WHAT you're currently doing, and whom you can trust not to judge you even if right now you're not entirely what you want to be (and if you still don't quite know what you want to be!).
As the older sibling, maybe the best thing you can do is let your little brother know that you care about him, that you want to see him be happy, but that you'll stand by him and won't write him off even if he doesn't yet quite know just what it's going to take for him to be happy and fulfilled ... sometimes I really wish I had done that sooner with some of those friends of mine, to be honest.
posted by DingoMutt at 9:07 PM on April 20, 2009 [4 favorites]
TD,
It sounds like I could have written your post, verbatim, this very moment. I'm 25, my brother is 19, dropped out of High School, barely passed his GED a few days ago, wanted to join the military but can't due to a earlier back surgery, etc.
He's esentially uninterested in anything in life except WoW and TF2. He's not even outwardly interested in sex or girls as far as I can tell, which is quite unusual for a 19 year old, I think. He has no friends, no aquaintances. He doesn't want a car because he has nowhere to go and has no desire to go anywhere anyway. He makes a half-assed effort to apply for local minimum wage jobs (Jack in the Box, etc.) but never follows through on them. I bought him a cellphone to use for getting job contacts and getting in touch with family -- he keeps it turned off in his sock drawer. He says he "doesn't know how to use it", which is strange for someone who is on the computer 16 hours a day. Oddly enough, I think I believe him.
I've suggested alot of different paths that he could take, including, ironically, the EMT program, as you mention. I've basically gone over the entire catalog of the local community/technical college with him and all I've ever gotten are eyerolls and "whatevers".
It's difficult to imagine any other name for this malaise than "failure to thrive".* It seems as if your brother and mine simply lack that supposedly innate human drive to accomplish things and aquire resources.
I'm afraid, though, that I don't have a great answer to our mutual problem. I think it's possible that some humans are simply born without the "aquire resources!" drive and that this might just be the way it is. From a philosophical standpoint, maybe the world would be a better place (more peaceful, fewer wars, crimes, etc.) if we were all like that.
Regardless, thats not the way things are, so your brother (and mine) are going to have a hard time adjusting no matter what. I hate to say this, but I also say it to myself: you may have to resign yourself to your brother living on the street for a while. One of the costs of totally rejecting working civilization is esentially homelessness -- the rightness or wrongness of that aside. Our society punishes people who don't play along, usually in very harsh ways.
I wish there was a better bit of advice I could give other than "get ready to let this happen" but I'm afraid there isn't. Everyone must choose their own path in life, even if it leads them down a road that we wouldn't choose for ourselves. Be there to offer advice and help when needed but also to tell the truth when needed as well ("you don't have money because mom and dad won't give you any, it's because you don't have a job"...etc.)
My relationship with my brother is a work in progress too. Good luck.
*I realize that "failure to thrive" is an actual medical diagnosis regarding infant nutrition, but I think the comparison is somewhat apt.
posted by Avenger at 9:16 PM on April 20, 2009 [6 favorites]
It sounds like I could have written your post, verbatim, this very moment. I'm 25, my brother is 19, dropped out of High School, barely passed his GED a few days ago, wanted to join the military but can't due to a earlier back surgery, etc.
He's esentially uninterested in anything in life except WoW and TF2. He's not even outwardly interested in sex or girls as far as I can tell, which is quite unusual for a 19 year old, I think. He has no friends, no aquaintances. He doesn't want a car because he has nowhere to go and has no desire to go anywhere anyway. He makes a half-assed effort to apply for local minimum wage jobs (Jack in the Box, etc.) but never follows through on them. I bought him a cellphone to use for getting job contacts and getting in touch with family -- he keeps it turned off in his sock drawer. He says he "doesn't know how to use it", which is strange for someone who is on the computer 16 hours a day. Oddly enough, I think I believe him.
I've suggested alot of different paths that he could take, including, ironically, the EMT program, as you mention. I've basically gone over the entire catalog of the local community/technical college with him and all I've ever gotten are eyerolls and "whatevers".
It's difficult to imagine any other name for this malaise than "failure to thrive".* It seems as if your brother and mine simply lack that supposedly innate human drive to accomplish things and aquire resources.
I'm afraid, though, that I don't have a great answer to our mutual problem. I think it's possible that some humans are simply born without the "aquire resources!" drive and that this might just be the way it is. From a philosophical standpoint, maybe the world would be a better place (more peaceful, fewer wars, crimes, etc.) if we were all like that.
Regardless, thats not the way things are, so your brother (and mine) are going to have a hard time adjusting no matter what. I hate to say this, but I also say it to myself: you may have to resign yourself to your brother living on the street for a while. One of the costs of totally rejecting working civilization is esentially homelessness -- the rightness or wrongness of that aside. Our society punishes people who don't play along, usually in very harsh ways.
I wish there was a better bit of advice I could give other than "get ready to let this happen" but I'm afraid there isn't. Everyone must choose their own path in life, even if it leads them down a road that we wouldn't choose for ourselves. Be there to offer advice and help when needed but also to tell the truth when needed as well ("you don't have money because mom and dad won't give you any, it's because you don't have a job"...etc.)
My relationship with my brother is a work in progress too. Good luck.
*I realize that "failure to thrive" is an actual medical diagnosis regarding infant nutrition, but I think the comparison is somewhat apt.
posted by Avenger at 9:16 PM on April 20, 2009 [6 favorites]
hippybear> Military is closed to him? Wow. After all the relaxed admission standards because two active wars have decimated the enrollment pool...
Well, actually, they've recently increased admission standards again, with the recession flooding the market with applicants.
Which means that the military might be a possibility a few years down the road, once he's cleaned up. But between here and there, I can't offer any advice that those above haven't already given.
posted by UrineSoakedRube at 9:45 PM on April 20, 2009
Well, actually, they've recently increased admission standards again, with the recession flooding the market with applicants.
Which means that the military might be a possibility a few years down the road, once he's cleaned up. But between here and there, I can't offer any advice that those above haven't already given.
posted by UrineSoakedRube at 9:45 PM on April 20, 2009
Response by poster:
Military is closed to him? Wow. After all the relaxed admission standards because two active wars have decimated the enrollment pool...
Welcome to two years ago, there's been an economic crisis since then.
Thanks everyone for the responses though, good to know others are at a similar loss at least.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:54 PM on April 20, 2009
Military is closed to him? Wow. After all the relaxed admission standards because two active wars have decimated the enrollment pool...
Welcome to two years ago, there's been an economic crisis since then.
Thanks everyone for the responses though, good to know others are at a similar loss at least.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:54 PM on April 20, 2009
People don't choose self-destruction because they like it. TD and Avenger, both of your brothers sound like they could use therapy and/or professional career counseling-- if for no other reason than to remove all the familial emotional weight from their decision-making, and provide them with a neutral party to talk their issues over with.
A guy with a 16-hour-a-day WoW habit isn't suffering from some nefarious, unnamed spiritual malaise that just happens to affect some people. That sort of avoidance and obsessiveness has many, many names-- all of which, in the US, are taxonomied in the DSM-IV. Which name fits the malaise, well, that's for the guy with the problem and his licensed psychologist to discover.
posted by fairytale of los angeles at 9:55 PM on April 20, 2009 [4 favorites]
A guy with a 16-hour-a-day WoW habit isn't suffering from some nefarious, unnamed spiritual malaise that just happens to affect some people. That sort of avoidance and obsessiveness has many, many names-- all of which, in the US, are taxonomied in the DSM-IV. Which name fits the malaise, well, that's for the guy with the problem and his licensed psychologist to discover.
posted by fairytale of los angeles at 9:55 PM on April 20, 2009 [4 favorites]
Ignore the arm chair psychology of middle children and "throw them in the streets." Everyone, without exception, who was like this that I knew suffered from mental illness, usually depression or generalized anxiety, sometimes bipolar. I would explore this.
posted by damn dirty ape at 10:32 PM on April 20, 2009 [5 favorites]
posted by damn dirty ape at 10:32 PM on April 20, 2009 [5 favorites]
Drugs are definitely enough to boot you out of the military.
Honestly, you can't save a guy who won't lift a finger to stop himself from drowning. I think your brother's just going to have to live as a homeless guy/couch surfer once he gets kicked out, and you'll eventually find out if THAT is enough to motivate him to do something with his life. It MIGHT be his "hit bottom." Or it might not.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:42 PM on April 20, 2009
Honestly, you can't save a guy who won't lift a finger to stop himself from drowning. I think your brother's just going to have to live as a homeless guy/couch surfer once he gets kicked out, and you'll eventually find out if THAT is enough to motivate him to do something with his life. It MIGHT be his "hit bottom." Or it might not.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:42 PM on April 20, 2009
You can find cheap or free mental health care through your county's Department of Mental Health. I have seen a number of teenage boys with similar symptoms, and many of them had been compensating for severe depression that was only really uncovered once they were in counseling. Dad's ultimatum is *NOT AT ALL* the best thing for the kid right now, and what might actually help is counseling or some form of acknowledgement that this is a serious problem that is not all his fault. He is probably already feeling like enough of a complete failure all on his own. Hope this turns out well for you all.
posted by so_gracefully at 10:45 PM on April 20, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by so_gracefully at 10:45 PM on April 20, 2009 [1 favorite]
(Appending my above post to include the obvious IANYourBrother'sD disclaimer)
posted by so_gracefully at 10:47 PM on April 20, 2009
posted by so_gracefully at 10:47 PM on April 20, 2009
At the moment all you can do is offer solutions for problems he can't understand or won't see
This is pretty much where I'm up to with Young Master Flabdablet. It truly sucks. I do sometimes wonder if I spend so much time on AskMe simply for the relief of being able to offer constructive advice to people who actually appear to want some. That's the thing about advice: it only ever works if it's sought.
Seeing somebody you care about blunder about aimlessly while apparently not getting any happier for doing so is just hard. Realizing that your only realistic response to that is to stop helping them avoid dealing with the consequences is even harder.
dda's point about possible mental illness may well be right. But unless somebody is a danger to themselves and other people, it's unethical to force treatment on them if they're not seeking it out for themselves. So it doesn't help you much.
Kudos to your Dad for his line in the sand. Here's hoping that your brother finding a sudden need to pay all his own bills will act more as a wake-up call than a tip over the edge.
posted by flabdablet at 11:08 PM on April 20, 2009 [4 favorites]
This is pretty much where I'm up to with Young Master Flabdablet. It truly sucks. I do sometimes wonder if I spend so much time on AskMe simply for the relief of being able to offer constructive advice to people who actually appear to want some. That's the thing about advice: it only ever works if it's sought.
Seeing somebody you care about blunder about aimlessly while apparently not getting any happier for doing so is just hard. Realizing that your only realistic response to that is to stop helping them avoid dealing with the consequences is even harder.
dda's point about possible mental illness may well be right. But unless somebody is a danger to themselves and other people, it's unethical to force treatment on them if they're not seeking it out for themselves. So it doesn't help you much.
Kudos to your Dad for his line in the sand. Here's hoping that your brother finding a sudden need to pay all his own bills will act more as a wake-up call than a tip over the edge.
posted by flabdablet at 11:08 PM on April 20, 2009 [4 favorites]
had his license suspended ... his inability/unwillingness to pass the drug test.
Are these two related? Is drug use one of the problems here?
posted by zippy at 11:44 PM on April 20, 2009
Are these two related? Is drug use one of the problems here?
posted by zippy at 11:44 PM on April 20, 2009
sounds a lot like me.
i never did drugs or anything, but the aimlessness an blaming all sound familiar. you know what to do, but you don't have any hope. when you get right down to it, hope is what makes you get up in the morning and brush your teeth. if you can't even see a good reason to do that, going to school and getting a job seem bloody impossible.
you know there's no excuse you can give than anyone will understand. you know that there's nothing stopping you, really, so you begin to blame yourself internally but make excuses to others. you keep asking yourself, "why can't i do these things that seem so easy for everyone else?" and when people help you, the shame of knowing it's because you can't help yourself just makes it worse.
i don't think nagging your brother to man up and get a job will do anything but make it worse. i needed a few things to get on my feet:
a) i had to find out what it felt like to actually be interested in my future and experience satisfaction at my accomplishments. as hard as it is to believe to someone who's never experienced it, these things can be totally absent from one's life. medication was the key here. i'm not on it anymore but feeling something other than numbness for the first time really changed my outlook.
b) i had a couple of people in my life from whom i learned by observation exactly how to take small steps towards a goal and how to automatically say "yes" to an opportunity.
c) one friend gave me a computer that allowed me to work on my coding skills (my original machine was too old and slow and i couldn't afford a new one), and another, once i improved, got me an incredible job that gave me experience, took me to new places and paid off all my debts. none of this would have helped if i hadn't been ready, though.
if your brother's anything like me, it'll take a long time for him to learn to live. there isn't much you can do, other than suggest that he get help if he's depressed and support whatever moves he makes towards independence.
posted by klanawa at 12:33 AM on April 21, 2009 [1 favorite]
i never did drugs or anything, but the aimlessness an blaming all sound familiar. you know what to do, but you don't have any hope. when you get right down to it, hope is what makes you get up in the morning and brush your teeth. if you can't even see a good reason to do that, going to school and getting a job seem bloody impossible.
you know there's no excuse you can give than anyone will understand. you know that there's nothing stopping you, really, so you begin to blame yourself internally but make excuses to others. you keep asking yourself, "why can't i do these things that seem so easy for everyone else?" and when people help you, the shame of knowing it's because you can't help yourself just makes it worse.
i don't think nagging your brother to man up and get a job will do anything but make it worse. i needed a few things to get on my feet:
a) i had to find out what it felt like to actually be interested in my future and experience satisfaction at my accomplishments. as hard as it is to believe to someone who's never experienced it, these things can be totally absent from one's life. medication was the key here. i'm not on it anymore but feeling something other than numbness for the first time really changed my outlook.
b) i had a couple of people in my life from whom i learned by observation exactly how to take small steps towards a goal and how to automatically say "yes" to an opportunity.
c) one friend gave me a computer that allowed me to work on my coding skills (my original machine was too old and slow and i couldn't afford a new one), and another, once i improved, got me an incredible job that gave me experience, took me to new places and paid off all my debts. none of this would have helped if i hadn't been ready, though.
if your brother's anything like me, it'll take a long time for him to learn to live. there isn't much you can do, other than suggest that he get help if he's depressed and support whatever moves he makes towards independence.
posted by klanawa at 12:33 AM on April 21, 2009 [1 favorite]
He's 19. There's a lot of time for a future. The best thing that you can do right now is not write him off. Life is long, and not everyone takes the same road into the future. Try not to judge him from where you are.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 1:07 AM on April 21, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by The Light Fantastic at 1:07 AM on April 21, 2009 [2 favorites]
Some advice not re: him but re: you re: him. You're his sister, and it's wonderful that you care. But do try and keep some perspective; he's nineteen years old. It's not going to ruin his future if he spends a few years as a wage slave. In fact, that may be what he needs to gain some time to figure out what he wants to do. I'm not claiming this isn't serious, because it is, but it's not going to make or break your brother's entire life. Very possibly it will make or break his next decade or so, yes. Please don't tie yourself up in knots over this while taking your bar exam! (Good luck, by the way.)
Alternatively, the depression hypothesis may be a valid one, so your brother and your whole family may want to think about that seriously before your parents cut him loose. Also, is your family full of high achievers? Because that can be a lot of pressure on a kid who doesn't know what he wants from life yet, and sometimes we fight against that pressure by not even trying - just tossing out some ideas.
posted by bettafish at 1:11 AM on April 21, 2009
Alternatively, the depression hypothesis may be a valid one, so your brother and your whole family may want to think about that seriously before your parents cut him loose. Also, is your family full of high achievers? Because that can be a lot of pressure on a kid who doesn't know what he wants from life yet, and sometimes we fight against that pressure by not even trying - just tossing out some ideas.
posted by bettafish at 1:11 AM on April 21, 2009
He'll fall, it will hurt, and eventually he'll figure it out.
Or… he won't. The world is full of people like this. People who have absolutely no ambition with life (as opposed to ambition in life).
It seems as if your brother and mine simply lack that supposedly innate human drive to accomplish things and aquire resources.
I think that's it as well. Some fledglings, they never learn to fly. Maybe they'd rather hang out on the ground. Maybe they can't learn to fly, like that part of their brain simply never developed, or was never nurtured (depending which side of the debate you subscribe). Either way, like Avenger said, it sounds like you have tried your best, but the only thing more to do is prepare yourself. It will get very hard, very fast, and either he will be scared shitless to be without a safety net and that will scare him into caring, or he will happily accept shelters and soup lines for the trade-off of not giving a shit about life.
I would keep nagging him, but not because I thought it would do any good.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 3:31 AM on April 21, 2009
Or… he won't. The world is full of people like this. People who have absolutely no ambition with life (as opposed to ambition in life).
It seems as if your brother and mine simply lack that supposedly innate human drive to accomplish things and aquire resources.
I think that's it as well. Some fledglings, they never learn to fly. Maybe they'd rather hang out on the ground. Maybe they can't learn to fly, like that part of their brain simply never developed, or was never nurtured (depending which side of the debate you subscribe). Either way, like Avenger said, it sounds like you have tried your best, but the only thing more to do is prepare yourself. It will get very hard, very fast, and either he will be scared shitless to be without a safety net and that will scare him into caring, or he will happily accept shelters and soup lines for the trade-off of not giving a shit about life.
I would keep nagging him, but not because I thought it would do any good.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 3:31 AM on April 21, 2009
It's not possible to predict the outcome of his life at 19. You do what you can, and let Darwnism take care of the rest. It's sad, but HE is in control, not you.
Read All the strange hours by Loren Eiseley and see if you could have predicted HIS life at age 19. That would be Dr. Eiseley, btw.
Guys I went to high school with should be dead by now if I projected their eventual destination and instead, now have PhD's. Folks come to the realization that life is what they make it at different times. Some never get there. He may be the latter. You are not particularly empowered to influence that except by example.
Good luck and good luck to the bro.
posted by FauxScot at 5:47 AM on April 21, 2009
Read All the strange hours by Loren Eiseley and see if you could have predicted HIS life at age 19. That would be Dr. Eiseley, btw.
Guys I went to high school with should be dead by now if I projected their eventual destination and instead, now have PhD's. Folks come to the realization that life is what they make it at different times. Some never get there. He may be the latter. You are not particularly empowered to influence that except by example.
Good luck and good luck to the bro.
posted by FauxScot at 5:47 AM on April 21, 2009
Sometimes a brother will stray while the other tries to imitate success. I think it's normal but also you should take some steps. I think the critical position your father is placing him in with force the kind of conformity you seek for your brother. In the meantime you can try to have fun with him. That may help the most. Life is a story and a journey and sometimes a character will take missteps or other things, and sometimes you just have to let things happen for a reason.
posted by luckypozzo at 6:37 AM on April 21, 2009
posted by luckypozzo at 6:37 AM on April 21, 2009
If he already sees you as someone he cannot trust, there probably isn't much you can do to convince him otherwise. If you know his friends, try to talk with them and see if there is anything you can do from behind the scenes. Otherwise, acquaint yourself with resources that would help homeless youth like him and pass that information along to him directly or through his friends.
posted by JJ86 at 6:46 AM on April 21, 2009
posted by JJ86 at 6:46 AM on April 21, 2009
There are good comments above, but see it from a different angle - he's going to get kicked out and he has no skills, money, and place to live. Once you and everyone accepts this, then if you really want to help, show him where the shelters are. A place to get a hot meal and a cot to put his head on can go a along way to finding himself back from homelessness. I would also introduce him to people/areas in the community where he can get some help, if it comes down to that. Keep all his papers in order, in case you get a call from a shelter, hospital, or (forbid) the police.
Teach him how to drift. How to take the bus, ride the train. If there's anything he possesses that can be called a "skill" then help him cultivate it as he moves around. Hopefully he'll be able to pick up jobs here and there - even if odd.
Importantly (most importantly) make sure he is in touch. You don't want him to be your burden, but you don't want him to drop off the face of the planet. Be his friend, give him some money every now and then, be his constant. Let him know that where ever he is, you want to hear his stories. Hopefully he'll find happiness, and ultimately that's more important than YOUR happiness about him.
posted by spoons at 7:08 AM on April 21, 2009
Teach him how to drift. How to take the bus, ride the train. If there's anything he possesses that can be called a "skill" then help him cultivate it as he moves around. Hopefully he'll be able to pick up jobs here and there - even if odd.
Importantly (most importantly) make sure he is in touch. You don't want him to be your burden, but you don't want him to drop off the face of the planet. Be his friend, give him some money every now and then, be his constant. Let him know that where ever he is, you want to hear his stories. Hopefully he'll find happiness, and ultimately that's more important than YOUR happiness about him.
posted by spoons at 7:08 AM on April 21, 2009
Young men have to cope with the surge of testosterone, a world that is often hostile, and possibly ADHD, depression, bipolar disorder, etc. The rigid structure of the military may be good for many of them, but that level of structure doesn't seem to exist outside the military. These lost young men do seem to respond better when they must face their consequences.
Does he like to be outdoors? perhaps he could work at a National Park or some other physically active outdoor job. Would your folks be willing to support him for 6 months if has working, even as a volunteer?
posted by theora55 at 7:26 AM on April 21, 2009 [1 favorite]
Does he like to be outdoors? perhaps he could work at a National Park or some other physically active outdoor job. Would your folks be willing to support him for 6 months if has working, even as a volunteer?
posted by theora55 at 7:26 AM on April 21, 2009 [1 favorite]
About a decade ago, I could've written this post. The only difference was that my brother finished high school--barely--at the local vocational school and he'd spent a few weeks in jail for various drug charges.
To answer your question, no, you can't help him with hope for the future. He has to do that himself.
With that said, I realize that this is a difficult and painful thing to watch, and you want to help. In all honesty, the best advice I can give you it this: don't try to help. Or, at least, don't volunteer to help. Hang out with your brother. Take him out to supper. Let him rant to you, talk to you, use you as a sounding board. Don't offer your opinion unless he asks for it, and don't tell him why he's wrong about things. (That is, if he says "GOD, mom and dad won't give me ANY MONEY, it's their fault that I'm always broke!", don't point out that it's not your parents' fault that he has no job. Just listen, say that it must be frustrating to be in his position, and let him continue to blow off steam.) He has plenty of people telling him what to do, and I promise you that no one can get to where he is and not realize that by anyone's standard, he's a failure. He doesn't need another parent, he needs someone to be his friend.
Over time, he'll find his place. When my brother was eighteen, my mother had to fight with the school district to let him graduate from high school. When he was twenty-two, he packed up his stuff and, with very little money, moved from Ohio to Colorado. We thought that he'd last six months and beg to come home; we thought that he'd be calling and asking for money.
He didn't. He's twenty-seven now, and he rents a house right on the edge of a national park. He has a dog and a horse, he owns a car that he paid for in cash, he has a steady job at a lumberyard (where he's been for about three years), and about a year ago, he went back to school to learn how to do auto repair. It's been a complete turnaround, and he's a happier, nicer, more functional person now.
Gear yourself up to watch your brother fail. Sometimes people need to hit the bottom before they're able to get enough of a handhold to start climbing back toward the top.
posted by MeghanC at 7:41 AM on April 21, 2009
To answer your question, no, you can't help him with hope for the future. He has to do that himself.
With that said, I realize that this is a difficult and painful thing to watch, and you want to help. In all honesty, the best advice I can give you it this: don't try to help. Or, at least, don't volunteer to help. Hang out with your brother. Take him out to supper. Let him rant to you, talk to you, use you as a sounding board. Don't offer your opinion unless he asks for it, and don't tell him why he's wrong about things. (That is, if he says "GOD, mom and dad won't give me ANY MONEY, it's their fault that I'm always broke!", don't point out that it's not your parents' fault that he has no job. Just listen, say that it must be frustrating to be in his position, and let him continue to blow off steam.) He has plenty of people telling him what to do, and I promise you that no one can get to where he is and not realize that by anyone's standard, he's a failure. He doesn't need another parent, he needs someone to be his friend.
Over time, he'll find his place. When my brother was eighteen, my mother had to fight with the school district to let him graduate from high school. When he was twenty-two, he packed up his stuff and, with very little money, moved from Ohio to Colorado. We thought that he'd last six months and beg to come home; we thought that he'd be calling and asking for money.
He didn't. He's twenty-seven now, and he rents a house right on the edge of a national park. He has a dog and a horse, he owns a car that he paid for in cash, he has a steady job at a lumberyard (where he's been for about three years), and about a year ago, he went back to school to learn how to do auto repair. It's been a complete turnaround, and he's a happier, nicer, more functional person now.
Gear yourself up to watch your brother fail. Sometimes people need to hit the bottom before they're able to get enough of a handhold to start climbing back toward the top.
posted by MeghanC at 7:41 AM on April 21, 2009
Maybe AmeriCorps, since the military is out? I served with convicted felons (who had been encouraged to join by their parole officers), so I don't think that should be an issue. NCCC would provide him a place to live and clothes to wear.
posted by hydropsyche at 8:49 AM on April 21, 2009
posted by hydropsyche at 8:49 AM on April 21, 2009
This sounds a lot like my cousin, who ended up dead within a year of being kicked out. Please try to maintain contact and support.
posted by ohio at 9:45 AM on April 21, 2009
posted by ohio at 9:45 AM on April 21, 2009
theora55: National Park Service positions are not volunteer. They are paid positions, many of them requiring training or schooling.
That said, I spent a summer working in the kitchen of the Lodge in Zion National Park. Amazing experience. I can't recommend that kind of work enough. (Concessions within the Parks are not run by the NPS, or weren't back then, but were still paid positions.)
posted by hippybear at 10:52 AM on April 21, 2009
That said, I spent a summer working in the kitchen of the Lodge in Zion National Park. Amazing experience. I can't recommend that kind of work enough. (Concessions within the Parks are not run by the NPS, or weren't back then, but were still paid positions.)
posted by hippybear at 10:52 AM on April 21, 2009
I swear, we need to devise some sort of Deadbeat Sibling Support Group.
"Hi, my name is Jabberjaw, and I too could have written this post. It has been four days since I last tried to give my loser brother advice on how to better himself."
If any of these pieces of advice work for you, please let me know. The hardest thing to do is just stand by and watch, but sometimes that's the best thing to do. Kind of like a festering scab - if you don't stop picking at it, it won't heal.
Okay, that was a bad analogy.
Maybe you can ask your parents to not kick out your brother until after you take the Bar Exam, though. You really don't need to be dealing with these kinds of issues while you are studying.
posted by jabberjaw at 11:05 AM on April 21, 2009
"Hi, my name is Jabberjaw, and I too could have written this post. It has been four days since I last tried to give my loser brother advice on how to better himself."
If any of these pieces of advice work for you, please let me know. The hardest thing to do is just stand by and watch, but sometimes that's the best thing to do. Kind of like a festering scab - if you don't stop picking at it, it won't heal.
Okay, that was a bad analogy.
Maybe you can ask your parents to not kick out your brother until after you take the Bar Exam, though. You really don't need to be dealing with these kinds of issues while you are studying.
posted by jabberjaw at 11:05 AM on April 21, 2009
Some interesting things being said here.
I don't understand why the military is closed. If he works on his GED, he could then join. There is no drug arrest, so he would just need to slow his life down on that end and take some courses (how many) to get his GED. Problem with authority is still an issue though and something to discuss with him.
I agree that advice and your willingness to be there for him is about what you can do. Some have stated he needs to fall down before he realizes anything - my concern is how much more can he fall - felony charges? At some point his falling will reach a point of no turning back (perhaps dramatic but makes my point.)
Lastly, I would recommend you also talk with your parents. I understand what they are doing, but they need to make sure he does not feel abandoned. They are doing this to push him along, as motivation but they also need to express they care for him. It may be hard for your brother to differentiate but he should hear from them and not just get kicked out because "he a loser, lazy good for nothing" ~fill in your own quote from the arguments I am imagining are taking place~
Perhaps offer to work with him on finding GED classes and information. It's a positive step in the right direction....
But in the end, he needs to find his path.
posted by fluffycreature at 12:14 PM on April 21, 2009
I really think it's worth pointing out that the unemployment stats for teenage workers are absolutely atrocious at the moment; they're running over 20%. Given that the stats rarely include people who've given up looking, like your brother, the reality is bound to be worse than that.
This isn't a good time to be looking for a job if you're skilled, educated, and experienced. And all of those skilled, educated and experienced people who can't find jobs are taking all the jobs that the unskilled uneducated and inexperienced teenagers used to be able to get.
There's a really good possibility that your brother simply can't find a job at the moment. One out of five people his age who are looking for jobs can't.
The sink or swim approach works best, I think, if you don't start off by throwing someone into a whirlpool. Things are really bad out there right now. And for someone with no home address, they're much, much worse.
It's worth considering what will happen if your brother gets kicked out, can't find a job, and can't find a place to live on no money. There are plenty of homeless people his age; getting out of that trap can be impossibly difficult. Even fatal.
I agree that your brother needs to get motivated and do something with his life. But this is a really risky way to go about doing it.
posted by MrVisible at 1:46 PM on April 21, 2009
This isn't a good time to be looking for a job if you're skilled, educated, and experienced. And all of those skilled, educated and experienced people who can't find jobs are taking all the jobs that the unskilled uneducated and inexperienced teenagers used to be able to get.
There's a really good possibility that your brother simply can't find a job at the moment. One out of five people his age who are looking for jobs can't.
The sink or swim approach works best, I think, if you don't start off by throwing someone into a whirlpool. Things are really bad out there right now. And for someone with no home address, they're much, much worse.
It's worth considering what will happen if your brother gets kicked out, can't find a job, and can't find a place to live on no money. There are plenty of homeless people his age; getting out of that trap can be impossibly difficult. Even fatal.
I agree that your brother needs to get motivated and do something with his life. But this is a really risky way to go about doing it.
posted by MrVisible at 1:46 PM on April 21, 2009
Just so you all know, whether or not joining the U.S. military is on or off the table, you can't force somebody to join just so they won't be your pain in your ass anymore. Additionally, as fabled as it appears in cinema, a teen having trouble with authority won't have any less trouble with authority just because they join the military. Especially if you force said teen into the military.
posted by jabberjaw at 2:03 PM on April 21, 2009
posted by jabberjaw at 2:03 PM on April 21, 2009
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by lia at 8:05 PM on April 20, 2009