Are my expectations of my girlfriend unfair?
April 15, 2009 11:51 PM Subscribe
I've been dating my current girlfriend for 6 months, recently moved in together (my lease expired and I was at her place all the time so it seemed natural) and we are both early 30's.
As in any relationship, over time things have popped up. Theres been a few things I've raised that she has dissmissed as me being unrealistic about what I should expect.
OK, here goes.
It all started when I found myself checking out other women more than I normally would when I'm in a relationship ... in fact more than even when I'm not in a relationship. I thought about this for a while and realised it was down to a couple of things.
I'm attracted to my girlfriend, but when we are having sx, its always lights off. Always complete darkness. I've raised this with her very early on and she said that its the only way she feels she can "let go". OK I understand that.
She gets changed seperately to me (which is also fair enough). We shower seperately, by her choice. In fact, when it comes down to it, I've never actually seen her without clothes, except kinda by accident (e.g. First thing in the morning when there is some light in the bedroom and she slept without a shirt on).
I have occasionally seen her in underwear, but never nice underwear. I really like this kind of thing, I've brought this up and she's just said she's not into that. So I kind of accepted that, except she recently threw out drawers and drawers worth of ... nice underwear! She made a point of showing me as she threw it all out. In my mind, I'm thinking "Great, all her ex's get that and I get occasional glimpses at cotton undies" - I waited till later to gently bring the topic up by saying that, you know, thats something I'd totally be into and she just said she's not into that at all.
Now its not like I expect her to dress up and parade around for my benefit 24/7. I totally understand she wants to get changed without me staring at her, shower without me there etc. I feel incredibly selfish asking her to do things she's obviously not comfortable doing (lets have some candles/dim lights while we are enjoying some intimate moments, have her wear some nice underwear etc), but its really affecting my state of mind.
When my (in my mind) gentle considerate prompting got no response other than being dismissed as me being unreasonable, I put it a little more firmly that its something I'd really like, and that its affecting me, but again I am made to feel that I have unrealistic expectations.
These things have all just kind of happened in my previous relationships, I've never had to prompt or ask or anything like that. I had no idea how much this kind of thing could affect my relationship. I feel a bit silly, selfish and that theres something wrong with me once I realised what the issue is!
Am I unrealistic? Any tips for how to progress from where I've been?
OK, here goes.
It all started when I found myself checking out other women more than I normally would when I'm in a relationship ... in fact more than even when I'm not in a relationship. I thought about this for a while and realised it was down to a couple of things.
I'm attracted to my girlfriend, but when we are having sx, its always lights off. Always complete darkness. I've raised this with her very early on and she said that its the only way she feels she can "let go". OK I understand that.
She gets changed seperately to me (which is also fair enough). We shower seperately, by her choice. In fact, when it comes down to it, I've never actually seen her without clothes, except kinda by accident (e.g. First thing in the morning when there is some light in the bedroom and she slept without a shirt on).
I have occasionally seen her in underwear, but never nice underwear. I really like this kind of thing, I've brought this up and she's just said she's not into that. So I kind of accepted that, except she recently threw out drawers and drawers worth of ... nice underwear! She made a point of showing me as she threw it all out. In my mind, I'm thinking "Great, all her ex's get that and I get occasional glimpses at cotton undies" - I waited till later to gently bring the topic up by saying that, you know, thats something I'd totally be into and she just said she's not into that at all.
Now its not like I expect her to dress up and parade around for my benefit 24/7. I totally understand she wants to get changed without me staring at her, shower without me there etc. I feel incredibly selfish asking her to do things she's obviously not comfortable doing (lets have some candles/dim lights while we are enjoying some intimate moments, have her wear some nice underwear etc), but its really affecting my state of mind.
When my (in my mind) gentle considerate prompting got no response other than being dismissed as me being unreasonable, I put it a little more firmly that its something I'd really like, and that its affecting me, but again I am made to feel that I have unrealistic expectations.
These things have all just kind of happened in my previous relationships, I've never had to prompt or ask or anything like that. I had no idea how much this kind of thing could affect my relationship. I feel a bit silly, selfish and that theres something wrong with me once I realised what the issue is!
Am I unrealistic? Any tips for how to progress from where I've been?
It sounds like you two have very different ideas about sexuality, as well as domestic behavior. If this isn't something you BOTH can talk about and work on openly, together, then you have to decide if you can truly accept the way things are going to be. Or not.
Personal data point/opinion: She'd have lost me at 'lights off'. To me, sex is the adult version of school recess. Sure we all have our hangups, but where and when else are we gonna get a chance to go play?
posted by iamkimiam at 12:03 AM on April 16, 2009 [3 favorites]
Personal data point/opinion: She'd have lost me at 'lights off'. To me, sex is the adult version of school recess. Sure we all have our hangups, but where and when else are we gonna get a chance to go play?
posted by iamkimiam at 12:03 AM on April 16, 2009 [3 favorites]
I dated a girl who was big on the low/no lights thing. I explained that it was infinitely hotter for me to be able to SEE things instead of just feel things, since sex is kinda audiovisual in nature as well.
You're going to get your fair share of GGG (good, giving, and game) Dan Savage advice; it's true, "not really into" letting your partner see you naked is a bit weird, six months in.
Ask her if she'd be willing to compromise--low light, just so that you can get your bearings and enjoy her. Express that it's important to *you* that you be able to enjoy her natural beauty, etc.
Finally, just call her out on it: Ask her why she doesn't think you should be able to see her naked, ever, and WHY she thinks it's unreasonable to think otherwise. Walk through the thought process.
This is strange to me, and I kinda wonder if there was some trauma involved, but alas. Good luck.
posted by disillusioned at 12:17 AM on April 16, 2009 [2 favorites]
You're going to get your fair share of GGG (good, giving, and game) Dan Savage advice; it's true, "not really into" letting your partner see you naked is a bit weird, six months in.
Ask her if she'd be willing to compromise--low light, just so that you can get your bearings and enjoy her. Express that it's important to *you* that you be able to enjoy her natural beauty, etc.
Finally, just call her out on it: Ask her why she doesn't think you should be able to see her naked, ever, and WHY she thinks it's unreasonable to think otherwise. Walk through the thought process.
This is strange to me, and I kinda wonder if there was some trauma involved, but alas. Good luck.
posted by disillusioned at 12:17 AM on April 16, 2009 [2 favorites]
For me, this would be absolutely unlivable. I can't imagine staying attracted to a partner I never saw naked, never saw all sexied up. I don't think you're even a tiny bit abnormal in wanting to see her naked (or in sexy panties).
I guess it is technically selfish, in that you want something for your own pleasure. But, everybody's allowed to be selfish to some degree. And you're asking for something most people would expect. You could just as easily argue that she's being selfish by refusing to ever be intimate with you in a pretty normal way.
As for unrealistic... that could go two ways.
In the wide world, it's totally realistic to expect that you'll see a fair amount of your naked partner. My wife and I spend most of our time around the house either naked or in bathrobes. We almost always shower together after sex, but take separate showers otherwise. Most of my previous girlfriends and boyfriends and I have had lots of naked time. I've had sex 50 times with the lights on (to some degree) for every once that the lights have all been off. In talks with friends, I've found that I'm at the more extreme end of naked time, but that most of my friends at least sleep nude together and/or occasionally fuck with the lights on (or during the day), and certainly change in front of each other without the slightest compunction.
On the other hand, it could be that it's unrealistic to expect your girlfriend to change. I find her behavior totally aberrant, and would actually suggest therapy for such extreme shame issues. But, if she thinks she's fine, and that her behavior is normal, there may be absolutely nothing you can do to change her. And, indeed, she does have the right to such extreme modesty. It's just that you also have the right to leave if your needs aren't being met.
Personally, if she was so completely unresponsive to my (totally reasonable) needs, I would explain to her that her behavior was jeopardizing the relationship. I would give her the opportunity to at least make some progress toward loosening up about nudity and sexuality. But, ultimately, if she was unable or unwilling to make some concessions, I seriously doubt that I would stick around. You gotta have the sexy.
posted by Netzapper at 12:17 AM on April 16, 2009 [7 favorites]
I guess it is technically selfish, in that you want something for your own pleasure. But, everybody's allowed to be selfish to some degree. And you're asking for something most people would expect. You could just as easily argue that she's being selfish by refusing to ever be intimate with you in a pretty normal way.
As for unrealistic... that could go two ways.
In the wide world, it's totally realistic to expect that you'll see a fair amount of your naked partner. My wife and I spend most of our time around the house either naked or in bathrobes. We almost always shower together after sex, but take separate showers otherwise. Most of my previous girlfriends and boyfriends and I have had lots of naked time. I've had sex 50 times with the lights on (to some degree) for every once that the lights have all been off. In talks with friends, I've found that I'm at the more extreme end of naked time, but that most of my friends at least sleep nude together and/or occasionally fuck with the lights on (or during the day), and certainly change in front of each other without the slightest compunction.
On the other hand, it could be that it's unrealistic to expect your girlfriend to change. I find her behavior totally aberrant, and would actually suggest therapy for such extreme shame issues. But, if she thinks she's fine, and that her behavior is normal, there may be absolutely nothing you can do to change her. And, indeed, she does have the right to such extreme modesty. It's just that you also have the right to leave if your needs aren't being met.
Personally, if she was so completely unresponsive to my (totally reasonable) needs, I would explain to her that her behavior was jeopardizing the relationship. I would give her the opportunity to at least make some progress toward loosening up about nudity and sexuality. But, ultimately, if she was unable or unwilling to make some concessions, I seriously doubt that I would stick around. You gotta have the sexy.
posted by Netzapper at 12:17 AM on April 16, 2009 [7 favorites]
You'll see a lot of questions where people will ask if their desires are validated by some ideal relationship pattern.
But there is no pattern.
There's only what you want and what someone is willing to give you.
Right now you guys are both trying to tell the other that according to some ideal, it is wrong to want the things you both want.
So it comes down to you want to see her naked and she does not feel comfortable naked around you.
Finding a way to compromise on those two things is what you need.
When negotiating this, keep in mind that she likely cares very much what you think about her body and therefore does not want to risk that you will find her body unattractive and leave her. The jedi mind-trick way of solving this is to repeatedly explain to her why you like her body
posted by Ironmouth at 12:17 AM on April 16, 2009 [8 favorites]
But there is no pattern.
There's only what you want and what someone is willing to give you.
Right now you guys are both trying to tell the other that according to some ideal, it is wrong to want the things you both want.
So it comes down to you want to see her naked and she does not feel comfortable naked around you.
Finding a way to compromise on those two things is what you need.
When negotiating this, keep in mind that she likely cares very much what you think about her body and therefore does not want to risk that you will find her body unattractive and leave her. The jedi mind-trick way of solving this is to repeatedly explain to her why you like her body
posted by Ironmouth at 12:17 AM on April 16, 2009 [8 favorites]
Err, sex doesn't usually get better as the relationship progresses unless both partners are willing to put some work and discussion into it. So, if she's unwilling to work on it, it is going to get even worse and more boring as time passes. Your expectations are not unrealistic; it's great that you discussed the issue with her and gave her a chance to reciprocate.
If you mention that something is seriously affecting your relationship and the other partner is dismissive, it's a good indicator that their preferences/neuroses are more important to them than the relationship.
I'd bail. This woman needs to deal with some body image issues - I can see a 20 year old doing this but it's very odd in your 30's to be that self-conscious.
posted by benzenedream at 12:27 AM on April 16, 2009 [4 favorites]
If you mention that something is seriously affecting your relationship and the other partner is dismissive, it's a good indicator that their preferences/neuroses are more important to them than the relationship.
I'd bail. This woman needs to deal with some body image issues - I can see a 20 year old doing this but it's very odd in your 30's to be that self-conscious.
posted by benzenedream at 12:27 AM on April 16, 2009 [4 favorites]
Just from a different-gender perspective... my last ex was like this. Slept in his boxer shorts, showered on his own, was always dressed, seemed to prefer (though not insist on) the lights off. It wasn't my thing, but it wasn't high on the list of things I wanted to make a big deal about. I'm now with a guy who is much more on the same page as me as far as fun-naked-time goes and how much time we spend dressed versus not dressed and/or when we leave the lights on.
I have to say that even though I was willing to accede to the quirks of my old boyfriend, being with someone who is just more like me in terms of liking to be naked and being comfortable in his own skin feels a lot more natural for me and made me realize just how much I was compromising to be in the old relationship.
I know it feels weird to make a big point of "I must be able to see you without your clothes on!" to someone you're having sex with but I think the reason you're feeling awkward here is that you and your gf seem to have very different approaches to your bodies and while you're willing to compromise it doesn't seem like she is, for whatever reason. I sympathize, it's tough to feel pushed outside of yuor comfort level in a relationship, but you're not weird or a jerk if you feel strange never seeing your girlfriend naked. I'm with other people that it seems like a larger issue she's having. I wish you luck talking about it.
posted by jessamyn at 12:33 AM on April 16, 2009 [4 favorites]
I have to say that even though I was willing to accede to the quirks of my old boyfriend, being with someone who is just more like me in terms of liking to be naked and being comfortable in his own skin feels a lot more natural for me and made me realize just how much I was compromising to be in the old relationship.
I know it feels weird to make a big point of "I must be able to see you without your clothes on!" to someone you're having sex with but I think the reason you're feeling awkward here is that you and your gf seem to have very different approaches to your bodies and while you're willing to compromise it doesn't seem like she is, for whatever reason. I sympathize, it's tough to feel pushed outside of yuor comfort level in a relationship, but you're not weird or a jerk if you feel strange never seeing your girlfriend naked. I'm with other people that it seems like a larger issue she's having. I wish you luck talking about it.
posted by jessamyn at 12:33 AM on April 16, 2009 [4 favorites]
I think the red alert here isn't any of her preferences per se but her apparent unwillingness to compromise on any of it.
posted by bettafish at 12:33 AM on April 16, 2009 [15 favorites]
posted by bettafish at 12:33 AM on April 16, 2009 [15 favorites]
I'm a fan of occasional lights-off total darkness, but that only works if it's a novelty. I'm the same about nakedness -- it's actually more interesting for me if it's rare. oooh, a treat!
But you do need the treat sometimes or anticipation stops being fun. It does sound a bit like you're dating a woman who's more inhibited than your own needs require. It does sound as if she's been through some sort of trauma or has a deeper issue here, especially if she used to have, for example, "pretty underwear"... but that won't get resolved without communication.
If she's at all interested in making you happy sometimes, she should at least engage in conversation with you about it. Figure out why she doesn't want to be be "sexy" for you. Don't be nasty about it: assume she has some good reason and try to understand.
She's comfortable in the dark, for some reason, whether that's because you can't see her or she can't see you... or herself. And if she's open to finding other ways of being comfortable, suggest some: a little alcohol to loosen up the defenses... a blindfold instead of lights off. (Heck, TELL HER the lights are off, ha.)
And maybe best of all: whenever she wears something remotely pretty or attractive, tell her she looks sexy. Hot. Desirable. And keep reinforcing that those are good things.
posted by rokusan at 12:45 AM on April 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
But you do need the treat sometimes or anticipation stops being fun. It does sound a bit like you're dating a woman who's more inhibited than your own needs require. It does sound as if she's been through some sort of trauma or has a deeper issue here, especially if she used to have, for example, "pretty underwear"... but that won't get resolved without communication.
If she's at all interested in making you happy sometimes, she should at least engage in conversation with you about it. Figure out why she doesn't want to be be "sexy" for you. Don't be nasty about it: assume she has some good reason and try to understand.
She's comfortable in the dark, for some reason, whether that's because you can't see her or she can't see you... or herself. And if she's open to finding other ways of being comfortable, suggest some: a little alcohol to loosen up the defenses... a blindfold instead of lights off. (Heck, TELL HER the lights are off, ha.)
And maybe best of all: whenever she wears something remotely pretty or attractive, tell her she looks sexy. Hot. Desirable. And keep reinforcing that those are good things.
posted by rokusan at 12:45 AM on April 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
If you mention that something is seriously affecting your relationship and the other partner is dismissive, it's a good indicator that their preferences/neuroses are more important to them than the relationship.
Just flip that around a second - If she tells him that something makes her uncomfortable/she's not into it and he keeps requesting it, its a good indicator that his preferences are more important to him than her happiness/the relationship.
She clearly has low self esteem when it comes to her body and you nagging about it all the time is going to make it worse, as evidenced by her throwing out all her sexy underwear and making you watch.
She's not happy with her body and you're essentially telling her that you need her to wear certain things for her to be attractive to you (that may not be what you said or even what you mean but I'd put money on it that thats what she hears when you say it)
When my (in my mind) gentle considerate prompting got no response other than being dismissed as me being unreasonable, I put it a little more firmly that its something I'd really like, and that its affecting me, but again I am made to feel that I have unrealistic expectations.
To a certain extent, you do. You expect her to do things that make her incredibly uncomfortable for your own sexual gratification. How would you feel if the situation was reversed and she was repeatedly pressuring you to do something sexual that made you uncomfortable. The fact that what makes her uncomfortable is something fairly normal and ordinary is irrelevant, it makes her uncomfortable, she doesn't want to do it and you should stop pressing the issue.
From here you have to decide if this is something that you can live with. If this is a deal breaker then you need to leave and move on with your life. If its not then you need to stop pushing her and give her time, with enough time and no pressure she might become more comfortable with you and her own nakedness and you might get what you want, but you need to be prepared for that to happen.
Any tips for how to progress from where I've been?
Don't mention it again, just give her time to relax on her own. 6 months isn't that long and you indicated that its only recently that you've moved in together. I would say, internally set a deadline for things to improve (but don't tell her obviously) and reassess your feelings at that point, if things haven't improved and you still feel that its affecting you badly then you need to leave, you can't force her to do things she doesn't want to do.
posted by missmagenta at 1:13 AM on April 16, 2009 [8 favorites]
Missmagenta, I think you're misreading the situation a little bit here. We don't know that she's unhappy with her body because she never actually gets to discussing it:
When my (in my mind) gentle considerate prompting got no response other than being dismissed as me being unreasonable
That's not a conversation, that's the girlfriend saying "Here's how it is, you're being unreasonable, this discussion is over". Now who is being unreasonable?
Yes, she might have issues about self esteem. Or it could be something totally different. To me, the problem isn't so much that she behaves like this, the problem is she has no interest in opening a dialog on it and frankly discussing/explaining her position in a reasonable manner.
To flip your own question on its head you asked "How would you feel if the situation was reversed and she was repeatedly pressuring you to do something sexual that made you uncomfortable." It seems to me that she is. The OP seems to be more than a bit uncomfortable with the whole idea of never seeing his girlfriend naked, which prompted his post here. I can see why he'd be a bit uncomfortable with it. It's odd. And her lack of dialog on why this is the way it has to be is odder.
So to give my two cents to the OP, I think it's damn strange, and you're not being unreasonable.
posted by barc0001 at 2:13 AM on April 16, 2009 [8 favorites]
When my (in my mind) gentle considerate prompting got no response other than being dismissed as me being unreasonable
That's not a conversation, that's the girlfriend saying "Here's how it is, you're being unreasonable, this discussion is over". Now who is being unreasonable?
Yes, she might have issues about self esteem. Or it could be something totally different. To me, the problem isn't so much that she behaves like this, the problem is she has no interest in opening a dialog on it and frankly discussing/explaining her position in a reasonable manner.
To flip your own question on its head you asked "How would you feel if the situation was reversed and she was repeatedly pressuring you to do something sexual that made you uncomfortable." It seems to me that she is. The OP seems to be more than a bit uncomfortable with the whole idea of never seeing his girlfriend naked, which prompted his post here. I can see why he'd be a bit uncomfortable with it. It's odd. And her lack of dialog on why this is the way it has to be is odder.
So to give my two cents to the OP, I think it's damn strange, and you're not being unreasonable.
posted by barc0001 at 2:13 AM on April 16, 2009 [8 favorites]
I've always thought of mutual nakedness as a kind of "honesty". if my partner was uncomfortable around me naked I'd feel that they dont' trust me.
posted by mary8nne at 2:26 AM on April 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by mary8nne at 2:26 AM on April 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
To answer the question: No, you are not the unrealistic one. She is the unrealistic one, in two senses.
1) Unrealistic, in the sense that is would be highly unusual in this culture for one lover never to see the other nude. The reality is that visually observed nudity happens in the vast majority of sexual relationships.
2) Unrealistic, in the sense that she offers no compromise nor any real explanation for her stance. This is not a generally workable model for most relationships in the large scale. If this happens to be the one thing she's weird about in this peculiar fashion, I might take a pass on it. This will probably not be the only thing she's weird about, in this peculiar fashion.
posted by adipocere at 2:42 AM on April 16, 2009
1) Unrealistic, in the sense that is would be highly unusual in this culture for one lover never to see the other nude. The reality is that visually observed nudity happens in the vast majority of sexual relationships.
2) Unrealistic, in the sense that she offers no compromise nor any real explanation for her stance. This is not a generally workable model for most relationships in the large scale. If this happens to be the one thing she's weird about in this peculiar fashion, I might take a pass on it. This will probably not be the only thing she's weird about, in this peculiar fashion.
posted by adipocere at 2:42 AM on April 16, 2009
missmagenta, I had started writing a response to your take on the situation. And then I realized that barc0001 had already written the core of it better.
To flip your own question on its head you asked "How would you feel if the situation was reversed and she was repeatedly pressuring you to do something sexual that made you uncomfortable." It seems to me that she is. The OP seems to be more than a bit uncomfortable with the whole idea of never seeing his girlfriend naked, which prompted his post here. I can see why he'd be a bit uncomfortable with it. It's odd. And her lack of dialog on why this is the way it has to be is odder.
This is the crux of the matter. The OP isn't asking his girlfriend for anal, and she's not into it. The OP has been made uncomfortable by the sexual decisions his girlfriend has made so far, and is trying to resolve that discomfort in the best possible way.
A more extreme example might be, "I love my girlfriend, and we have a lot of fairly satisfying sex. But, she insists that we only have sex through a sheet with a hole in it. This was fine at first, but is an increasing concern for me. I don't want to leave her, but would like to feel her skin at least on occasion."
You're absolutely right that the choice may eventually come down to love it or leave it. She has the right to behave however she wants with regards to her personal modesty. But, so long as he isn't being coercive, it seems totally reasonable that he should be able to at least ask why this inhibition exists. He has the right to articulate his needs. Without that discussion and dialog, there's no way for him to evaluate whether this is an unacceptable situation that may improve given time and effort or an unacceptable situation that will never improve. And the girlfriend's reluctance to even begin that dialog, the out-of-hand dismissal, doesn't speak well for the relationship.
He has the right to seek answers about something that's making him uncomfortable. And it seems totally reasonable that never seeing naked the partner with which he lives would make him uncomfortable.
And six months of sexual relations, plus living together, seems like it is plenty of time for even the shyest of folks to be willing to be seen naked in some context--either while dressing, or while fucking, but perhaps not both. The described behavior, however, points to either some past trauma, or simply radical "cultural" differences, which are not things that will ameliorate with time... especially if the inhibition's continually indulged and never challenged.
Of course, the OP doesn't have the right to drug his girlfriend and strip her naked for the purposes of oggling. He shouldn't make her feel bad for being weird (even though she clearly doesn't hew to American social standards). He shouldn't bribe or cajole her. But, if it's an issue, he should be encouraged to talk about it.
posted by Netzapper at 2:46 AM on April 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
To flip your own question on its head you asked "How would you feel if the situation was reversed and she was repeatedly pressuring you to do something sexual that made you uncomfortable." It seems to me that she is. The OP seems to be more than a bit uncomfortable with the whole idea of never seeing his girlfriend naked, which prompted his post here. I can see why he'd be a bit uncomfortable with it. It's odd. And her lack of dialog on why this is the way it has to be is odder.
This is the crux of the matter. The OP isn't asking his girlfriend for anal, and she's not into it. The OP has been made uncomfortable by the sexual decisions his girlfriend has made so far, and is trying to resolve that discomfort in the best possible way.
A more extreme example might be, "I love my girlfriend, and we have a lot of fairly satisfying sex. But, she insists that we only have sex through a sheet with a hole in it. This was fine at first, but is an increasing concern for me. I don't want to leave her, but would like to feel her skin at least on occasion."
You're absolutely right that the choice may eventually come down to love it or leave it. She has the right to behave however she wants with regards to her personal modesty. But, so long as he isn't being coercive, it seems totally reasonable that he should be able to at least ask why this inhibition exists. He has the right to articulate his needs. Without that discussion and dialog, there's no way for him to evaluate whether this is an unacceptable situation that may improve given time and effort or an unacceptable situation that will never improve. And the girlfriend's reluctance to even begin that dialog, the out-of-hand dismissal, doesn't speak well for the relationship.
He has the right to seek answers about something that's making him uncomfortable. And it seems totally reasonable that never seeing naked the partner with which he lives would make him uncomfortable.
And six months of sexual relations, plus living together, seems like it is plenty of time for even the shyest of folks to be willing to be seen naked in some context--either while dressing, or while fucking, but perhaps not both. The described behavior, however, points to either some past trauma, or simply radical "cultural" differences, which are not things that will ameliorate with time... especially if the inhibition's continually indulged and never challenged.
Of course, the OP doesn't have the right to drug his girlfriend and strip her naked for the purposes of oggling. He shouldn't make her feel bad for being weird (even though she clearly doesn't hew to American social standards). He shouldn't bribe or cajole her. But, if it's an issue, he should be encouraged to talk about it.
posted by Netzapper at 2:46 AM on April 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
My point is, it works both ways, they're both being equally unreasonable. Their needs are mutually exclusive, he wants something, she wants the exact opposite. There are no tricks/techniques he can (or should) employ to change her behavior, he can only control his own behavior and reactions.
It seems to me (from the underwear incident) that she's the stubborn type and further discussion/request is going to result in the opposite behavior. Some people are just like that, particularly over sensitive issues.
posted by missmagenta at 3:06 AM on April 16, 2009
It seems to me (from the underwear incident) that she's the stubborn type and further discussion/request is going to result in the opposite behavior. Some people are just like that, particularly over sensitive issues.
posted by missmagenta at 3:06 AM on April 16, 2009
These things have all just kind of happened in my previous relationships.
If you have indeed a consistent history of "not-with-the-lights-on" girlfriends, you should try to find out what is triggering this in your personal history.
posted by Baud at 3:10 AM on April 16, 2009
If you have indeed a consistent history of "not-with-the-lights-on" girlfriends, you should try to find out what is triggering this in your personal history.
posted by Baud at 3:10 AM on April 16, 2009
Baud, I understood that line to mean the "eventually naked with lights and the wearing of some mutually acceptable sexy underwear" happened in his previous relationships. He seems clear that his expectation is as things progress and as she becomes more confident he expected certain other things to follow. They appear to be what the majority of males like so if she is not comfortable providing them it make come to a make it or break it situation.
I think you moved in for all the wrong reasons.
posted by Wilder at 3:22 AM on April 16, 2009
I think you moved in for all the wrong reasons.
posted by Wilder at 3:22 AM on April 16, 2009
I think that both sides of this argument are right.
1. missmagenta is probably spot-on when she says this woman has a body issue problem. To that extent, the OP is being unreasonable, only insofar as continuing to ask for something that is making his girlfriend uncomfortable.
2. However, those saying the OP is not being unreasonable and it is infact his girlfriend that is being unreasonable are also correct, to a degree. He has a right to ask for something in a relationship, just as she has a right to refuse it. But normally in a healthy relationship, the two meet somewhere in between. The fact that she refuses to discuss the issue to any meaningful conclusion is where she is being not necessarily unreasonable, but certainly unhelpful, both to herself (by refusing to discuss her problem she sets up a pattern where the OP will simply ask again at some point) and to the relationship (continuing the pattern could frustrate both of them, to the point where this could end).
I think going forward, if she continues to refuse to discuss this, the OP needs to decide if this is a long-term relationship and if this quirk is something he can live with, and if not, he needs to move on and save both himself and his girlfriend a lot of time and heartbreak. Because if she refuses to discuss the problem to a meaningful resolution, and he's not getting what he wants (or she ends up compromising and is uncomfortable because of this), this relationship is probably doomed in the long-run.
posted by Effigy2000 at 3:56 AM on April 16, 2009
1. missmagenta is probably spot-on when she says this woman has a body issue problem. To that extent, the OP is being unreasonable, only insofar as continuing to ask for something that is making his girlfriend uncomfortable.
2. However, those saying the OP is not being unreasonable and it is infact his girlfriend that is being unreasonable are also correct, to a degree. He has a right to ask for something in a relationship, just as she has a right to refuse it. But normally in a healthy relationship, the two meet somewhere in between. The fact that she refuses to discuss the issue to any meaningful conclusion is where she is being not necessarily unreasonable, but certainly unhelpful, both to herself (by refusing to discuss her problem she sets up a pattern where the OP will simply ask again at some point) and to the relationship (continuing the pattern could frustrate both of them, to the point where this could end).
I think going forward, if she continues to refuse to discuss this, the OP needs to decide if this is a long-term relationship and if this quirk is something he can live with, and if not, he needs to move on and save both himself and his girlfriend a lot of time and heartbreak. Because if she refuses to discuss the problem to a meaningful resolution, and he's not getting what he wants (or she ends up compromising and is uncomfortable because of this), this relationship is probably doomed in the long-run.
posted by Effigy2000 at 3:56 AM on April 16, 2009
There are times I'd actually back off going for the direct approach right away. She might feel uncomfortable, literally, in her own skin. If you bring this up like, "I want to see you, that's sexy," and she feels the complete opposite about her body being exposed to your eyes, then her being naked is just going to feel totally unsexy and uncomfortable. Imagine you convince her that you're right, and your expectations are fair in a 6-month relationship. So, imagine she complies and takes her clothes off. Can you now imagine her feeling 'caught'? Standing or laying there awkwardly and stone-still? Yeah, not so sexy. Once it becomes a 'thing,' like "I have to get naked and he has to see me or else he doesn't get turned on, and then what?" it will just escalate the problem.
Instead, why not take this as a longer-term project? Where the end goal is not about sex with the lights on and her clothes off, but about her feeling good in her own skin, in your eyes. That flips the dynamic here considerably.
Now your goal is not to make her see how ridiculous she's being ("I mean, duh, I love you, I want to see you naked, I think it's sexy and natural, how can you not see that? What are you weird or a prude?"), but to see how lovely and beautiful and desired and unique and utterly gorgeous and scintillating you find her skin, her body, her curves, her shadows, her ridges, her rolls, her dimples, her joints, her muscles, her scars, her limbs and her belly, her chest and her calves, her neck and her thighs.
So, week by week, keep that in mind. If you're standing behind her, kiss the nape of her neck, moving her hair and shirt a little out of the way. Or move up her arm, from her wrist to her shoulder. Give her a foot massage, and move up her legs. Make her a nice bath and leave her be. Every opportunity, kiss a different part of her skin and tell her you love HER and mean it. Don't just do it in bed or right before sex. Show her body that you love each bit of it.
Enjoy the process of getting her to trust you, of getting her to release her skin to the trust of your eyes. Enjoy each inch that gets seen, each bit of modesty that gets replaced with raw hope and then expectation.
This isn't about tricking her. It isn't about making her realize that your expectations are right. It is about long-term seduction, long-term care that demonstrates and proves that her body is safe with yours. That is much harder than flipping the light switch in the bedroom. What? Too much work? She expects too much? Welcome to adulthood. Welcome to partnership. Welcome to the kind of love that erupts after such custody, trust, love, and time is demonstrated, upheld, underlined, preserved. It's worth it.
posted by barnone at 4:03 AM on April 16, 2009 [62 favorites]
Instead, why not take this as a longer-term project? Where the end goal is not about sex with the lights on and her clothes off, but about her feeling good in her own skin, in your eyes. That flips the dynamic here considerably.
Now your goal is not to make her see how ridiculous she's being ("I mean, duh, I love you, I want to see you naked, I think it's sexy and natural, how can you not see that? What are you weird or a prude?"), but to see how lovely and beautiful and desired and unique and utterly gorgeous and scintillating you find her skin, her body, her curves, her shadows, her ridges, her rolls, her dimples, her joints, her muscles, her scars, her limbs and her belly, her chest and her calves, her neck and her thighs.
So, week by week, keep that in mind. If you're standing behind her, kiss the nape of her neck, moving her hair and shirt a little out of the way. Or move up her arm, from her wrist to her shoulder. Give her a foot massage, and move up her legs. Make her a nice bath and leave her be. Every opportunity, kiss a different part of her skin and tell her you love HER and mean it. Don't just do it in bed or right before sex. Show her body that you love each bit of it.
Enjoy the process of getting her to trust you, of getting her to release her skin to the trust of your eyes. Enjoy each inch that gets seen, each bit of modesty that gets replaced with raw hope and then expectation.
This isn't about tricking her. It isn't about making her realize that your expectations are right. It is about long-term seduction, long-term care that demonstrates and proves that her body is safe with yours. That is much harder than flipping the light switch in the bedroom. What? Too much work? She expects too much? Welcome to adulthood. Welcome to partnership. Welcome to the kind of love that erupts after such custody, trust, love, and time is demonstrated, upheld, underlined, preserved. It's worth it.
posted by barnone at 4:03 AM on April 16, 2009 [62 favorites]
The early suggestions of trauma seem (to me) more useful than a debate over whose expectations are appropriate or realistic. She made a big deal of throwing out her sexy underwear while the OP watched. That makes me think she associates sexy underwear / nakednesss / exhibitionism with some painful time that she's trying to put behind her, and that she wants to move into a better, healthier time with the O.P. I suspect her last relationship lasted quite a while, and the breakup was especially painful to her. If this behavior is rooted in very painful experiences, it's no surprise that she'd rather not discuss it with someone who's attitude suggests that her feelings are abnormal / weird / unacceptable. If the OP wants to get at the heart of this, he's going to have to set his own preferences aside for awhile and take her feelings seriously.
posted by jon1270 at 4:24 AM on April 16, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by jon1270 at 4:24 AM on April 16, 2009 [2 favorites]
Has your girl friend gained weight in the last year or two? Many women start really having trouble with their weight in their 30's. I think she might be really self conscious about her body right now for some reason since she had nice underwear she use to wear but threw out.
It would probably help to ask her why she feels the way she does but make clear that you just want to understand what's going on, not pressuring her to wear anything. Once you understand the why, you should have a better sense if this could be open to discussion and how to go about it. If there's a traumatic reason, it could help you to be more sympathetic.
posted by stray thoughts at 4:30 AM on April 16, 2009
It would probably help to ask her why she feels the way she does but make clear that you just want to understand what's going on, not pressuring her to wear anything. Once you understand the why, you should have a better sense if this could be open to discussion and how to go about it. If there's a traumatic reason, it could help you to be more sympathetic.
posted by stray thoughts at 4:30 AM on April 16, 2009
A former girlfriend from way back tended towards this, and we became close enough over time that I learned she did indeed have some trauma, specifically she had been raped and never truly faced it. The 'hiding' was a outcome, along with carrying a tooth brush in her purse...nasty horrid toothbrush.
I am not inferring she has anything along these lines, except to say it can get quite complex. At the time she was certainly worth sticking around as she did begin to delve into her past; the relationship eventually ended because we were not lifetime compatible. Perhaps she has something or perhaps something less complex.
If not this, then it may be something else. Is the relationship worth working through possible issues? If not the 'lights' issue, most likely something else will crop up. I would approach in some way that this is important and would like to discuss.
Seeing the skin, in various stages is what jump starts my heart - I would have to move this one forward.
posted by fluffycreature at 4:45 AM on April 16, 2009
A slightly different perspective:
I think that I, and many of the females I know, would find it uncomfortable to be asked to wear sexy panties or any other particular article of clothing. Such a request may imply that natural beauty is not enough, and that she needs to add commercial products in order to impress you. This perspective may be extreme, and it's possible that I and the people I know are sensitive beyond what is healthy. It rubs me the wrong way that the female body might not be "good enough" on its own, especially since men are rarely asked to wear sexy undergarments/shoes/whatever for the purposes of sex (although I'm sure it happens sometimes). It strikes me as perfectly fine for a woman to dress up however she wants in order to impress her partner as long as SHE chooses to, but I feel pretty iffy about making it a "base requirement" for a relationship.
However, it does strike me as highly unusual that your girlfriend is uncomfortable being naked with you in all circumstances. I would definitely be suspicious that her discomfort has an unpleasant cause, such as past harassment or trauma, or serious body image issues.
posted by Cygnet at 5:08 AM on April 16, 2009 [8 favorites]
I think that I, and many of the females I know, would find it uncomfortable to be asked to wear sexy panties or any other particular article of clothing. Such a request may imply that natural beauty is not enough, and that she needs to add commercial products in order to impress you. This perspective may be extreme, and it's possible that I and the people I know are sensitive beyond what is healthy. It rubs me the wrong way that the female body might not be "good enough" on its own, especially since men are rarely asked to wear sexy undergarments/shoes/whatever for the purposes of sex (although I'm sure it happens sometimes). It strikes me as perfectly fine for a woman to dress up however she wants in order to impress her partner as long as SHE chooses to, but I feel pretty iffy about making it a "base requirement" for a relationship.
However, it does strike me as highly unusual that your girlfriend is uncomfortable being naked with you in all circumstances. I would definitely be suspicious that her discomfort has an unpleasant cause, such as past harassment or trauma, or serious body image issues.
posted by Cygnet at 5:08 AM on April 16, 2009 [8 favorites]
You moved in with her, not after getting married or making a commitment, but because you were at her place a lot. You say you are attracted to her, but nothing about your feelings for her. She may feel close enough to you to have sex with you, but not enough to reveal her body or her feelings. What about moving out and dating again? You might get to know each other better, if you weren't living together.
posted by Carol Anne at 5:15 AM on April 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by Carol Anne at 5:15 AM on April 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
I don't really have a new opinion on this - it is definitely reasonable to want to see your gf naked, and at the same time if she is uncomfortable being naked then even the slightest amount of asking her about it will probably make her feel guilty and like she's not good enough and like she's not making you happy, which is a crappy feeling.
The only thing I wanted to point out (that I think people haven't commented on) is her throwing out her sexy underwear and letting you know and rubbing it in!! It's either a really bitchy thing to do, to be like "HA HA you're never going to see what you want, I win!" or it really is some serious insecurity/trauma thing, something that happened in her past that she just wants to have control over now by doing something like this.
If I was dating someone for 6 months I'd probably want to discuss it with him just so we can work together on making our sex life better. Even if it isn't a trauma thing but just a simple insecurity thing, I'd explain why I feel the way I do and maybe think of tiny little steps we can take together to get past it... but not everyone is as open to talking about uncomfortable things, so it's really up to you to decide what would work best with her. Just keep in mind that any pressure would make a girl feel more insecure.
posted by KateHasQuestions at 5:28 AM on April 16, 2009
The only thing I wanted to point out (that I think people haven't commented on) is her throwing out her sexy underwear and letting you know and rubbing it in!! It's either a really bitchy thing to do, to be like "HA HA you're never going to see what you want, I win!" or it really is some serious insecurity/trauma thing, something that happened in her past that she just wants to have control over now by doing something like this.
If I was dating someone for 6 months I'd probably want to discuss it with him just so we can work together on making our sex life better. Even if it isn't a trauma thing but just a simple insecurity thing, I'd explain why I feel the way I do and maybe think of tiny little steps we can take together to get past it... but not everyone is as open to talking about uncomfortable things, so it's really up to you to decide what would work best with her. Just keep in mind that any pressure would make a girl feel more insecure.
posted by KateHasQuestions at 5:28 AM on April 16, 2009
would find it uncomfortable to be asked to wear sexy panties or any other particular article of clothing.
This is so true too. I like it when a guy says "hey those are really sexy" if I'm wearing them, but if someone said "it'd be hot if you wore that" I'd think twice about wearing that. Maybe.
So if I were you I'd work more on just complimenting her body and emphasizing that you want to see her because she's beautiful, instead of wanting her to put on sexy things.
posted by KateHasQuestions at 5:32 AM on April 16, 2009
This is so true too. I like it when a guy says "hey those are really sexy" if I'm wearing them, but if someone said "it'd be hot if you wore that" I'd think twice about wearing that. Maybe.
So if I were you I'd work more on just complimenting her body and emphasizing that you want to see her because she's beautiful, instead of wanting her to put on sexy things.
posted by KateHasQuestions at 5:32 AM on April 16, 2009
For me the never-naked thing, absent some sort of compelling explanation, would be a deal-breaker. It's not that I want to sit around naked all day, staring at each other -- it's just sort of a basic comfort-with-ourselves thing, part of a happy and comfortable relationship. I could be happy with more nakedness, or with less, but zero nakedness would not make me happy.
I think it's clear that something is going on. Trauma in the past, or discomfort with her body, or maybe those comments you make that you think are really funny jokes ("ha ha, check out those stretch marks, baby!") aren't so funny, really. In other words, the only person who knows is her, not any of us, and the only way you'll ever learn is by communicating with her.
Have you considered seeing if she'd be open to some sessions with a relationship counselor? If you are this unhappy, chances are good that she isn't all that happy either. Don't approach it as "we need to fix this problem with you" -- think of it as "making our relationship better for both of us."
(Lastly, if you are having expectations of her wearing sexy knickers -- are you reciprocating? What do you wear that is purely for her, even if you happen to find it terribly uncomfortable and expensive? Dressing up can be fun and sexy, but it should go both ways.)
posted by Forktine at 6:14 AM on April 16, 2009
I think it's clear that something is going on. Trauma in the past, or discomfort with her body, or maybe those comments you make that you think are really funny jokes ("ha ha, check out those stretch marks, baby!") aren't so funny, really. In other words, the only person who knows is her, not any of us, and the only way you'll ever learn is by communicating with her.
Have you considered seeing if she'd be open to some sessions with a relationship counselor? If you are this unhappy, chances are good that she isn't all that happy either. Don't approach it as "we need to fix this problem with you" -- think of it as "making our relationship better for both of us."
(Lastly, if you are having expectations of her wearing sexy knickers -- are you reciprocating? What do you wear that is purely for her, even if you happen to find it terribly uncomfortable and expensive? Dressing up can be fun and sexy, but it should go both ways.)
posted by Forktine at 6:14 AM on April 16, 2009
The OP isn't asking his girlfriend for anal, and she's not into it. The OP has been made uncomfortable by the sexual decisions his girlfriend has made so far,
Thing is, if her body image is really as horrifically low as it sounds like, letting her boyfriend see her naked is going to feel like he is asking for double-penetration anal by sparkling Shetland ponies while her mother looks on and masturbates.
Of course, with the mention that she was willing to wear sexy underwear in the past, but not now, makes it possible that she just doesn't want to let him see her naked/sexy -- but it isn't the thing that immediately springs to my mind. To me, it's far, far more likely that something really, really bad happened with her last relationship/between her starting to date him, or that the underwear resulted from a previous partner pressuring her into it or (more charitably) trying to raise low body image by giving her some. The brain of somebody with genuinely low self esteem will interpret it as "OH GOD YOU DON'T FIND ME ATTRACTIVE ENOUGH WHEN I'M NOT WEARING THIS?", as mentioned by other people above.
Short of therapy, OP, which I think she'd definitely benefit from and I'm not one of the crowd that would recommend therapy for anything short of a broken leg, the only thing that I have to suggest is what my current boyfriend did. I've got a (much, much milder) case of this, and my boyfriend gently coaxed me out of it, degree by degree, month over month, by spontaneously paying me utterly genuine, but wildly flattering, compliments, including compliments about the parts of my body that I liked the least. I hate my thighs and my hips, for example, but he'll tell me specifically and without prompting and with enormous enthusiasm just how much he likes them.
Consequently, my thought process now is, "Well, the rest of the world may think I'm ugly/fat/awkward/gross, but by gum, at least my boyfriend finds even my thunderthighs smoking hot, so who cares what they think?" Convincing me that he genuinely thought that, though, took some time, and I don't know whether it'd work if your girlfriend has a much more intense case, though.
posted by joyceanmachine at 6:18 AM on April 16, 2009 [7 favorites]
Thing is, if her body image is really as horrifically low as it sounds like, letting her boyfriend see her naked is going to feel like he is asking for double-penetration anal by sparkling Shetland ponies while her mother looks on and masturbates.
Of course, with the mention that she was willing to wear sexy underwear in the past, but not now, makes it possible that she just doesn't want to let him see her naked/sexy -- but it isn't the thing that immediately springs to my mind. To me, it's far, far more likely that something really, really bad happened with her last relationship/between her starting to date him, or that the underwear resulted from a previous partner pressuring her into it or (more charitably) trying to raise low body image by giving her some. The brain of somebody with genuinely low self esteem will interpret it as "OH GOD YOU DON'T FIND ME ATTRACTIVE ENOUGH WHEN I'M NOT WEARING THIS?", as mentioned by other people above.
Short of therapy, OP, which I think she'd definitely benefit from and I'm not one of the crowd that would recommend therapy for anything short of a broken leg, the only thing that I have to suggest is what my current boyfriend did. I've got a (much, much milder) case of this, and my boyfriend gently coaxed me out of it, degree by degree, month over month, by spontaneously paying me utterly genuine, but wildly flattering, compliments, including compliments about the parts of my body that I liked the least. I hate my thighs and my hips, for example, but he'll tell me specifically and without prompting and with enormous enthusiasm just how much he likes them.
Consequently, my thought process now is, "Well, the rest of the world may think I'm ugly/fat/awkward/gross, but by gum, at least my boyfriend finds even my thunderthighs smoking hot, so who cares what they think?" Convincing me that he genuinely thought that, though, took some time, and I don't know whether it'd work if your girlfriend has a much more intense case, though.
posted by joyceanmachine at 6:18 AM on April 16, 2009 [7 favorites]
Also, what Forktine said, of course, about talking to her being crucially and up-front important.
posted by joyceanmachine at 6:31 AM on April 16, 2009
posted by joyceanmachine at 6:31 AM on April 16, 2009
Thing is, if her body image is really as horrifically low as it sounds like, letting her boyfriend see her naked is going to feel like he is asking for double-penetration anal by sparkling Shetland ponies while her mother looks on and masturbates.
Why would you want to ever date someone who hated the way they looked this much?
Have a serious conversation about it one more time, and if nothing happens DTMFA.
Seriously.
posted by TypographicalError at 6:37 AM on April 16, 2009
Why would you want to ever date someone who hated the way they looked this much?
Have a serious conversation about it one more time, and if nothing happens DTMFA.
Seriously.
posted by TypographicalError at 6:37 AM on April 16, 2009
Am I unrealistic?
Not at all. It's extremely odd that she's so adamant about it. It's been six months and you've never seen her naked except for accidents? Damn straight that's odd. That's ok, people are odd it lots of various ways, but that doesn't mean you have to deal with their oddities, unless you want to or it doesn't bother you.
Any tips for how to progress from where I've been?
Don't know if you left something out of your post, but there doesn't seem to be much talking going on about this situation, at least from your end. For instance, when she was throwing out her old sexy underwear, that seems like a perfect time for you to ask "Hey, what's up with the change? It's fine if you want to, but I'm curious about you as a person and what prompted this change. Can you tell me about it?"
There doesn't seem to be any deep conversations about this subject, which is the oddest thing about the situation. Everyone has little odd bits about them and as part of being a couple you talk and sometimes laugh about them as you're learning each other's history. This doesn't seem to be occurring here, so ask yourself "Why?" She's an adult, she can handle a bit of questioning and talking, right? So talk, even if she pulls the "You have unrealistic expectations" crap. There are not unreasonable, whatever she thinks and they are YOUR expectations, which she should take seriously, and they're affecting the relationship, so either she wants to talk about it or wants to see the relationship go down in flames.
When my (in my mind) gentle considerate prompting got no response other than being dismissed as me being unreasonable, I put it a little more firmly that its something I'd really like, and that its affecting me, but again I am made to feel that I have unrealistic expectations.
Remember, no one can make you feel bad without your permission. It may sound trite, but it's true.
Look, you have certain expectations in relationship, such as seeing your SO naked and her wearing sexy underwear. Those things are completely reasonable. Yet your current SO has repeatedly told you that ain't happening, for whatever reason. Zip, nada, nothing, forget it about it buddy, NOT GONNA HAPPEN. She's repeatedly said this, so there are no surprises here. The question is what are gonna do about this? Is this a deal breaker? If so, break up with her. If not, then don't.
But let's be honest. You're checking out other women, A LOT. You're checking out other women 'cause you're missing something from your current relationship. There's something you need or want that this relationship isn't providing and when you ask for it, you're told "No, " repeatedly. If she's not willing to provide you with what you need or what in a relationship (which is her right, whatever the reason is), then it's probably time to move on.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:44 AM on April 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
Not at all. It's extremely odd that she's so adamant about it. It's been six months and you've never seen her naked except for accidents? Damn straight that's odd. That's ok, people are odd it lots of various ways, but that doesn't mean you have to deal with their oddities, unless you want to or it doesn't bother you.
Any tips for how to progress from where I've been?
Don't know if you left something out of your post, but there doesn't seem to be much talking going on about this situation, at least from your end. For instance, when she was throwing out her old sexy underwear, that seems like a perfect time for you to ask "Hey, what's up with the change? It's fine if you want to, but I'm curious about you as a person and what prompted this change. Can you tell me about it?"
There doesn't seem to be any deep conversations about this subject, which is the oddest thing about the situation. Everyone has little odd bits about them and as part of being a couple you talk and sometimes laugh about them as you're learning each other's history. This doesn't seem to be occurring here, so ask yourself "Why?" She's an adult, she can handle a bit of questioning and talking, right? So talk, even if she pulls the "You have unrealistic expectations" crap. There are not unreasonable, whatever she thinks and they are YOUR expectations, which she should take seriously, and they're affecting the relationship, so either she wants to talk about it or wants to see the relationship go down in flames.
When my (in my mind) gentle considerate prompting got no response other than being dismissed as me being unreasonable, I put it a little more firmly that its something I'd really like, and that its affecting me, but again I am made to feel that I have unrealistic expectations.
Remember, no one can make you feel bad without your permission. It may sound trite, but it's true.
Look, you have certain expectations in relationship, such as seeing your SO naked and her wearing sexy underwear. Those things are completely reasonable. Yet your current SO has repeatedly told you that ain't happening, for whatever reason. Zip, nada, nothing, forget it about it buddy, NOT GONNA HAPPEN. She's repeatedly said this, so there are no surprises here. The question is what are gonna do about this? Is this a deal breaker? If so, break up with her. If not, then don't.
But let's be honest. You're checking out other women, A LOT. You're checking out other women 'cause you're missing something from your current relationship. There's something you need or want that this relationship isn't providing and when you ask for it, you're told "No, " repeatedly. If she's not willing to provide you with what you need or what in a relationship (which is her right, whatever the reason is), then it's probably time to move on.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:44 AM on April 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
this would be a deal-breaker for me. that doesn't mean your gf is a bad person or terrible as a gf or whatever, but sexual compatibility in a relationship is just as important as intellectual or emotional compatibility to me, and don't think that's something anyone should apologize for...
I doubt you would stay with someone you thought was an idiot, or someone you thought was incredibly dull or selfish or someone who shared no interests or passions with... this is no different.
You need and deserve to be with someone who is on or at least close to your own sexual wavelength, whatever that is. If your gf is not, and it sounds like she isn't, that means she is not the right one for you and you should move on.. I doubt very much this is something she can "change", any more than anyone can easily change any element of their personality. This isn't something like learning to appreciate spicy foods or film festivals because your partner likes them, or remembering to pick up your dirty socks because she hates it when you leave them on the floor when you go to bed.
posted by modernnomad at 6:56 AM on April 16, 2009
I doubt you would stay with someone you thought was an idiot, or someone you thought was incredibly dull or selfish or someone who shared no interests or passions with... this is no different.
You need and deserve to be with someone who is on or at least close to your own sexual wavelength, whatever that is. If your gf is not, and it sounds like she isn't, that means she is not the right one for you and you should move on.. I doubt very much this is something she can "change", any more than anyone can easily change any element of their personality. This isn't something like learning to appreciate spicy foods or film festivals because your partner likes them, or remembering to pick up your dirty socks because she hates it when you leave them on the floor when you go to bed.
posted by modernnomad at 6:56 AM on April 16, 2009
You don't actually talk anywhere in your post about what she wants, or what you like about her aside from the sex, or what this relationship does for you (aside from sex). What you say, instead, is "my girlfriend won't dress up in sexy underwear," and "now I find myself checking out other women."
Sorry, but that makes you sound like kind of a dick. This may not be your fault, but the way your question is framed makes it seem like this is all about you -- nowhere do you tell us what you like about her, beyond the sex, or express real concern over why she might be feeling this way. You also don't talk about sex as "we," which is a giant red flag.
If I were her, and remotely worried about my body (which many women are), repeated small hints to raise the "atmosphere" wouldn't make me want to have sex with you more often. Candles, sexy underwear, incense, etc, can seem really artificial -- especially if it comes across as "what the guy wants." As someone who's been in this position, this is what her side of the conversation might look like.
YOU: "Great, all her ex's get that and I get occasional glimpses at cotton undies"
HER: "Wait, he only thinks I'm sexy in nice underwear?"
YOU: "I'd like to see you naked more!"
HER: "Oh...he only thinks I'm sexy with my clothes off...but I'm not really comfortable with that...but he wants me to take my clothes off...well, fuck."
That is really lame -- in part because the whole conversation focuses around her being sexy for you, and puts a lot of indirect pressure on her to satisfy your needs. They may not be unreasonable needs -- but it's still all about you. My guess is, she's probably picking up on this and responding to it -- and on top of feeling self-conscious, feeling a bit guilty about it too.
You should take her feelings seriously. Accept that there are real reasons for why she's doing the things she's doing.
Beyond that, seconding barnone's advice: Remind her every day that she's attractive WITH HER CLOTHES ON. Talk about what you find attractive, but don't offer it as a way to correct her behavior. Try having sex with your clothes ON for once (it's really hot!)
Also, make room for intimate time out of the bedroom. Best way to not feel like a domesticated couple? Go make out in the park. Go to see a movie, sit in the back row, and run your fingers through her hair. Or go for a walk, and just talk. Or make dinner together.
posted by puckish at 7:04 AM on April 16, 2009 [3 favorites]
Sorry, but that makes you sound like kind of a dick. This may not be your fault, but the way your question is framed makes it seem like this is all about you -- nowhere do you tell us what you like about her, beyond the sex, or express real concern over why she might be feeling this way. You also don't talk about sex as "we," which is a giant red flag.
If I were her, and remotely worried about my body (which many women are), repeated small hints to raise the "atmosphere" wouldn't make me want to have sex with you more often. Candles, sexy underwear, incense, etc, can seem really artificial -- especially if it comes across as "what the guy wants." As someone who's been in this position, this is what her side of the conversation might look like.
YOU: "Great, all her ex's get that and I get occasional glimpses at cotton undies"
HER: "Wait, he only thinks I'm sexy in nice underwear?"
YOU: "I'd like to see you naked more!"
HER: "Oh...he only thinks I'm sexy with my clothes off...but I'm not really comfortable with that...but he wants me to take my clothes off...well, fuck."
That is really lame -- in part because the whole conversation focuses around her being sexy for you, and puts a lot of indirect pressure on her to satisfy your needs. They may not be unreasonable needs -- but it's still all about you. My guess is, she's probably picking up on this and responding to it -- and on top of feeling self-conscious, feeling a bit guilty about it too.
You should take her feelings seriously. Accept that there are real reasons for why she's doing the things she's doing.
Beyond that, seconding barnone's advice: Remind her every day that she's attractive WITH HER CLOTHES ON. Talk about what you find attractive, but don't offer it as a way to correct her behavior. Try having sex with your clothes ON for once (it's really hot!)
Also, make room for intimate time out of the bedroom. Best way to not feel like a domesticated couple? Go make out in the park. Go to see a movie, sit in the back row, and run your fingers through her hair. Or go for a walk, and just talk. Or make dinner together.
posted by puckish at 7:04 AM on April 16, 2009 [3 favorites]
This sounds like a communication problem to me too. You said you used "gentle considerate prompting" and later "put it a little more firmly" but that is so subjective, it could have sounded more like nagging, begging, demanding or pleading to her. You need to have a calm discussion away from the apartment where you discuss your entire relationship, because I suspect this one problem of yours is mirrored by problems she is having too (such as noticing how much you are checking out other girls and thinking you don't find her attractive). It could also be because you moved into her space relatively quickly and this is one of the few ways she can keep her privacy now that you are living together. Perhaps she would have relaxed about her nakedness if she had more space from you.
If her body image was scarred by her last boyfriend or a traumatic incident maybe you could approach her with more compassion and willingness to see it from her point of view. There are plenty of threads on body image that might give you perspective on how it feels to hate your own body.
posted by saucysault at 7:14 AM on April 16, 2009
If her body image was scarred by her last boyfriend or a traumatic incident maybe you could approach her with more compassion and willingness to see it from her point of view. There are plenty of threads on body image that might give you perspective on how it feels to hate your own body.
posted by saucysault at 7:14 AM on April 16, 2009
It could simply be that your girlfriend is creating some boundaries for herself as she adjusts to living with her boyfriend (assuming you are male). This might just be her way of coping with living with someone, and after a few months or a year of cohabitation, things might change back to how they were before you moved in.
If she wore sexy things and kept the light on before you moved in, then these things may eventually return. If she's "always" been like this (all 6 months' worth) then you can't expect her to change. Sometimes people do change, but you can't expect it from them.
posted by Sprout the Vulgarian at 7:25 AM on April 16, 2009
If she wore sexy things and kept the light on before you moved in, then these things may eventually return. If she's "always" been like this (all 6 months' worth) then you can't expect her to change. Sometimes people do change, but you can't expect it from them.
posted by Sprout the Vulgarian at 7:25 AM on April 16, 2009
I think the bottom line here is she is unwilling to communicate or that the two of you have a communication problem. Everything else is just a symptom of that underlying issue.
posted by Silvertree at 7:27 AM on April 16, 2009
posted by Silvertree at 7:27 AM on April 16, 2009
I feel a bit silly, selfish and that theres something wrong with me once I realised what the issue is!
If you're being silly and selfish and have something wrong with you because you want to see your girlfriend naked, then you know who else is silly and selfish and has something wrong with them? Each and every man in the world who has any sex drive.
Stop worrying about which adjectives to apply to yourself. Worry about getting what you want out of the relationship.
posted by Jaltcoh at 7:38 AM on April 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
If you're being silly and selfish and have something wrong with you because you want to see your girlfriend naked, then you know who else is silly and selfish and has something wrong with them? Each and every man in the world who has any sex drive.
Stop worrying about which adjectives to apply to yourself. Worry about getting what you want out of the relationship.
posted by Jaltcoh at 7:38 AM on April 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
I have occasionally seen her in underwear, but never nice underwear. I really like this kind of thing, I've brought this up and she's just said she's not into that. So I kind of accepted that, except she recently threw out drawers and drawers worth of ... nice underwear! She made a point of showing me as she threw it all out.
This is just so bizarre I don't even know what to say. I don't know enough about you two to even begin answering the other stuff or deciding if you are bad or good or whatever this thread turned into, but I will say that if I were in your situation, I would sit down with her and say "Remember when you threw out all your good underwear? What up with that?"
I mean, if I were dating someone and I was like, "hey, sit down and have a gander while I throw out all my Oxford shirts and replace them with oversized Looney Tunes tees," I imagine she'd be a) weirded out that I was doing this and b) double-weirded out that I made her watch. It's clearly some sort of passive-aggressive show: she wants to tell you something without the hassle of actually telling you.
Maybe she wants you to move out or to break up with her. Consider it.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 7:41 AM on April 16, 2009 [2 favorites]
This is just so bizarre I don't even know what to say. I don't know enough about you two to even begin answering the other stuff or deciding if you are bad or good or whatever this thread turned into, but I will say that if I were in your situation, I would sit down with her and say "Remember when you threw out all your good underwear? What up with that?"
I mean, if I were dating someone and I was like, "hey, sit down and have a gander while I throw out all my Oxford shirts and replace them with oversized Looney Tunes tees," I imagine she'd be a) weirded out that I was doing this and b) double-weirded out that I made her watch. It's clearly some sort of passive-aggressive show: she wants to tell you something without the hassle of actually telling you.
Maybe she wants you to move out or to break up with her. Consider it.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 7:41 AM on April 16, 2009 [2 favorites]
For what it's worth, unwillingness to work on this pretty soon would be a deal breaker for me. I think you're getting a lot of great input and perspectives here, especially since it's hard to tell where she's coming from.
I agree that it raises questions that it seems she used to be more comfortable with her body, and I hope "trauma" is overstating it. Her lack of confidence could be as simple as her having gained an extra 15 lbs since she bought that underwear or a previous lover complaining about her body. The latter, especially, can do a lot of damage to a person's confidence. Keep telling her she's sexy, sexy, sexy and give her time to trust you. If she still can't/won't turn on the lights and/or wear something you think is sexy, then I think you have to decide if it's a deal breaker for you, too.
posted by juliplease at 7:51 AM on April 16, 2009
I agree that it raises questions that it seems she used to be more comfortable with her body, and I hope "trauma" is overstating it. Her lack of confidence could be as simple as her having gained an extra 15 lbs since she bought that underwear or a previous lover complaining about her body. The latter, especially, can do a lot of damage to a person's confidence. Keep telling her she's sexy, sexy, sexy and give her time to trust you. If she still can't/won't turn on the lights and/or wear something you think is sexy, then I think you have to decide if it's a deal breaker for you, too.
posted by juliplease at 7:51 AM on April 16, 2009
Have you asked her why she doesn't want to do those things? It could be low self-esteem, or trauma, or anything else people have mentioned, but you're not going to be much closer to solving the problem until you find out. If it's either of those things, be aware that it will be difficult to get her to talk about it, so not being able to talk about it immediately isn't necessarily unreasonable, it's just human. You've only been going out six months so I wouldn't expect her to be able to talk about any past trauma just yet, or even low self-esteem issues. That early in a relationship people generally are trying to keep their partner from thinking anything bad about them.
I don't think your expectations are unfair, but that's not really the right angle to approach this from. It doesn't matter if your expectations are fair or not if she has some issues that make her unable to address them. You wouldn't say, "Hey, it's not fair to me that you were raped," or, "Hey, it's not fair to me that you have low self-esteem," right? She's likely not doing these things because she thinks it's fair to you. If you keep thinking of the issue in terms of what's fair and what's not, you're going to feel like she's deliberately keeping something from you and being unreasonable, and if you feel that way, you're going to find that she feels trapped and more unwilling to talk to you.
I think barnone's advice in getting her to open up is probably your best option. Also, nthing the idea that asking her to wear sexy panties is going to make her feel even worse if she has self esteem issues. If a woman feels bad about her body already, and her boyfriend starts asking her to wear sexier clothes or more make-up, what she hears is "you aren't attractive enough without these things." The worse she feels about her appearance, the worse she's going to feel when she's having sex, and the less she's going to want to have it. When you do have sex, do you want her to feel like it's a chore that she has to do for you?
When she starts feeling sexier, she will start acting sexier. To get her to start feeling sexier, you have to put less pressure on her and make her feel more accepted. Focus on just appreciating her more when she's naked and try to postpone all the things you want her to wear and do until she's ready for that. Do your best to get her to talk about things, but it will likely take a bit of time.
posted by Nattie at 7:57 AM on April 16, 2009
I don't think your expectations are unfair, but that's not really the right angle to approach this from. It doesn't matter if your expectations are fair or not if she has some issues that make her unable to address them. You wouldn't say, "Hey, it's not fair to me that you were raped," or, "Hey, it's not fair to me that you have low self-esteem," right? She's likely not doing these things because she thinks it's fair to you. If you keep thinking of the issue in terms of what's fair and what's not, you're going to feel like she's deliberately keeping something from you and being unreasonable, and if you feel that way, you're going to find that she feels trapped and more unwilling to talk to you.
I think barnone's advice in getting her to open up is probably your best option. Also, nthing the idea that asking her to wear sexy panties is going to make her feel even worse if she has self esteem issues. If a woman feels bad about her body already, and her boyfriend starts asking her to wear sexier clothes or more make-up, what she hears is "you aren't attractive enough without these things." The worse she feels about her appearance, the worse she's going to feel when she's having sex, and the less she's going to want to have it. When you do have sex, do you want her to feel like it's a chore that she has to do for you?
When she starts feeling sexier, she will start acting sexier. To get her to start feeling sexier, you have to put less pressure on her and make her feel more accepted. Focus on just appreciating her more when she's naked and try to postpone all the things you want her to wear and do until she's ready for that. Do your best to get her to talk about things, but it will likely take a bit of time.
posted by Nattie at 7:57 AM on April 16, 2009
All I have to contribute are possible reasons why she's throwing out all the underwear. Maybe it was given/bought by an ex. I can understand wanting to clear out that baggage. Or maybe it no longer fits. Reading the question reminded me I need to clean out all my all old "sexy" underwear as well, because like it was mentioned up thread, my thirties have brought upon weight issues I've never had to deal with before. I've got an entire drawer of underwear that simply no longer fits. And if I get back to the point where they would fit, I'm buying myself new underwear, dammit! But gloating while throwing it out is odd... Than being said -- it boils down to communication. Ask her. Diplomatically and nicely, but ask her. If she won't answer, or avoids the conversation all together, you don't have a naked/sexy-underwear problem, you have a communication problem.
posted by cgg at 8:03 AM on April 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by cgg at 8:03 AM on April 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
I don't think you're being unreasonable. It might just be that you're incompatible on this naked issue, especially since she's unwilling to discuss it with you. If it's a dealbreaker for you in terms of your sex life, you might have to end it.
I don't like wearing sexy lingerie. It's uncomfortable, and at times, itchy. I used to wear it because I thought it was expected of me, but I found that most guys just want to take it off as soon as possible anyway, so I stopped, and got rid of it all. Now, I'm much more comfortable -- and it makes everything, including hooking up, better! No one has ever asked that I wear it again. I'm not sure how I'd feel if they did.
Also, one thing that I have wondered at the entire time reading through this thread, don't you ever have sex in the daytime? When the sun's out? How on earth is it dark enough then for you not to see her naked? Do you have blackout windows?
posted by bluefly at 8:21 AM on April 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
I don't like wearing sexy lingerie. It's uncomfortable, and at times, itchy. I used to wear it because I thought it was expected of me, but I found that most guys just want to take it off as soon as possible anyway, so I stopped, and got rid of it all. Now, I'm much more comfortable -- and it makes everything, including hooking up, better! No one has ever asked that I wear it again. I'm not sure how I'd feel if they did.
Also, one thing that I have wondered at the entire time reading through this thread, don't you ever have sex in the daytime? When the sun's out? How on earth is it dark enough then for you not to see her naked? Do you have blackout windows?
posted by bluefly at 8:21 AM on April 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
I don't think there's anything wrong, in and of itself, with what you want.
But, I do think it's wrong and unreasonable, and pretty awful to expect someone to do something sexually that they don't want to do, or to pressure them to do it. I know Dan Savage preaches otherwise. Well, Dan Savage has probably never been on the receiving end of that kind of pressure. Or been in a position where he felt he had little choice but to give in to it.
I think you should have a respectful conversation with your girlfriend in which you express that this is a dealbreaker for you, and also express respect for her boundaries/choices/what she's comfortable with.
In other words, I think to say "I'm going to break up with you unless you do these things" would be bad (and manipulative). I think to say "I respect that you have your preferences when it comes to sex/nudity, but I also have mine, and they are incompatible. I can't continue in a relationship where there is such incompatibility on this topic."
In a nutshell, what you want isn't "wrong," and what she wants isn't "wrong." You're just incompatible.
And by the way- checking out other women and justifying it to yourself with unhappiness in your relationship? Bad form.
posted by Ashley801 at 8:43 AM on April 16, 2009
But, I do think it's wrong and unreasonable, and pretty awful to expect someone to do something sexually that they don't want to do, or to pressure them to do it. I know Dan Savage preaches otherwise. Well, Dan Savage has probably never been on the receiving end of that kind of pressure. Or been in a position where he felt he had little choice but to give in to it.
I think you should have a respectful conversation with your girlfriend in which you express that this is a dealbreaker for you, and also express respect for her boundaries/choices/what she's comfortable with.
In other words, I think to say "I'm going to break up with you unless you do these things" would be bad (and manipulative). I think to say "I respect that you have your preferences when it comes to sex/nudity, but I also have mine, and they are incompatible. I can't continue in a relationship where there is such incompatibility on this topic."
In a nutshell, what you want isn't "wrong," and what she wants isn't "wrong." You're just incompatible.
And by the way- checking out other women and justifying it to yourself with unhappiness in your relationship? Bad form.
posted by Ashley801 at 8:43 AM on April 16, 2009
If I don't want to wear sexy panties, it generally means I don't want to have sex that night.
You don't give any indication that she's enthusiastic about the actual sex, nevermind the nakedness question.
Maybe it's as simple as she really doesn't like having sex with you (or in general), and this is her passive-aggressive way of showing it. That's a completely different question.
posted by desjardins at 8:52 AM on April 16, 2009
You don't give any indication that she's enthusiastic about the actual sex, nevermind the nakedness question.
Maybe it's as simple as she really doesn't like having sex with you (or in general), and this is her passive-aggressive way of showing it. That's a completely different question.
posted by desjardins at 8:52 AM on April 16, 2009
I just scrolled up and read barnone's answer. I wish I could favorite it a million times. I was never comfortable in my own skin until I met my husband, who - 5 years into our relationship - constantly comments on my attractiveness.
posted by desjardins at 8:58 AM on April 16, 2009
posted by desjardins at 8:58 AM on April 16, 2009
I would say that her attitude to nudity is unusual. Furthermore, it's not unreasonable at all for you to want to see her naked. That said, she doesn't want you to see her naked, for whatever reason. Pressuring her in any way is unkind, and isn't going to help matters at all. I understand that this makes you uneasy and uncomfortable, but bargaining with her and pressuring her to do things she doesn't want to do is completely unfair to her, and probably going to make her even more uncomfortable, and even resentful of you.
I have to say, though, that your attitude of "all her exes get that and I don't" worries me rather. Her behaviour with her exes doesn't mean that she owes you the same thing; she doesn't owe you anything except what she wants to give you/share with you. (On a side note: how on earth do you know that she paraded around in her 'nice underwear' for her exes? Women often have pretty/sexy/unusual/blue and orange lacy polka dot underwear because they like wearing it! She may never have ever worn it in front of anyone else.)
You say that you "feel incredibly selfish asking her to do things she's obviously not comfortable doing" - well, yeah. You're putting your wishes above hers and that's inherently selfish. But this is obviously making you unhappy and uncomfortable, and that's not a nice way for anyone to feel. You see this as something you need, and she seems unwilling to compromise, so if this incompatibility is a dealbreaker for you, then maybe you'd be better off calling it quits with her.
If you really don't want to end things, though, then maybe you could sit down with her sometimes and explain how unhappy this is making you, that it's completely her right to show you or not show you her body as she wishes, but you'd be be more understanding if you actually...well.. understood! Say you're not going to pressure her but you'd really like to understand what she's thinking. Her attitude is one thing, she's entitled to do whatever she wants with her body, but her complete unwillingness to communicate with you about something that's troubling you is not fair to you.
posted by badmoonrising at 9:45 AM on April 16, 2009
I have to say, though, that your attitude of "all her exes get that and I don't" worries me rather. Her behaviour with her exes doesn't mean that she owes you the same thing; she doesn't owe you anything except what she wants to give you/share with you. (On a side note: how on earth do you know that she paraded around in her 'nice underwear' for her exes? Women often have pretty/sexy/unusual/blue and orange lacy polka dot underwear because they like wearing it! She may never have ever worn it in front of anyone else.)
You say that you "feel incredibly selfish asking her to do things she's obviously not comfortable doing" - well, yeah. You're putting your wishes above hers and that's inherently selfish. But this is obviously making you unhappy and uncomfortable, and that's not a nice way for anyone to feel. You see this as something you need, and she seems unwilling to compromise, so if this incompatibility is a dealbreaker for you, then maybe you'd be better off calling it quits with her.
If you really don't want to end things, though, then maybe you could sit down with her sometimes and explain how unhappy this is making you, that it's completely her right to show you or not show you her body as she wishes, but you'd be be more understanding if you actually...well.. understood! Say you're not going to pressure her but you'd really like to understand what she's thinking. Her attitude is one thing, she's entitled to do whatever she wants with her body, but her complete unwillingness to communicate with you about something that's troubling you is not fair to you.
posted by badmoonrising at 9:45 AM on April 16, 2009
I've brought this up and she's just said she's not into that. So I kind of accepted that, except she recently threw out drawers and drawers worth of ... nice underwear! She made a point of showing me as she threw it all out.
There's something really strange here that either you're not telling us or she's not telling you.
Why did she a) own drawers and drawers full of 'nice underwear', if she's "not into that", b) throw them out when she started dating you, and c) make a point of showing you that she was throwing it out?
More to the point, why didn't you ask her why?
posted by ook at 10:26 AM on April 16, 2009 [2 favorites]
There's something really strange here that either you're not telling us or she's not telling you.
Why did she a) own drawers and drawers full of 'nice underwear', if she's "not into that", b) throw them out when she started dating you, and c) make a point of showing you that she was throwing it out?
More to the point, why didn't you ask her why?
posted by ook at 10:26 AM on April 16, 2009 [2 favorites]
As everyone has already said, you guys seem to have a communication problem. I'm guessing this isn't the only issue the two of you have trouble communicating about, as well.
I know I sound like a broken record on this, but you have two choices: learn to communicate better, or break up. If you choose the first, you have two choices: figure it out on your own, or enlist a professional to help you figure it out.
The figuring it out on your own thing doesn't seem to be working so well. Why not try enlisting a professional to help the two of you find ways to communicate better?
As for the "why would she throw out the sexy underthings" there are many reasons, including gain or loss of weight that makes them fit weirdly, or them having been given to her by an ex whom she's now trying to exorcise from her life now that New Boyfriend has moved in.
Also, if you guys are using different birth control than she was using with past partners, she may be having issues with yeast infections that make cotton underpants more appealing than nylon (of which most sexy underpants are made). I know people who couldn't wear nylon underpants for as much as an hour or two without it triggering a yeast infection. And yeah, someone with body shame is going to have a hard time talking about this with a partner.
posted by Sidhedevil at 10:42 AM on April 16, 2009
I know I sound like a broken record on this, but you have two choices: learn to communicate better, or break up. If you choose the first, you have two choices: figure it out on your own, or enlist a professional to help you figure it out.
The figuring it out on your own thing doesn't seem to be working so well. Why not try enlisting a professional to help the two of you find ways to communicate better?
As for the "why would she throw out the sexy underthings" there are many reasons, including gain or loss of weight that makes them fit weirdly, or them having been given to her by an ex whom she's now trying to exorcise from her life now that New Boyfriend has moved in.
Also, if you guys are using different birth control than she was using with past partners, she may be having issues with yeast infections that make cotton underpants more appealing than nylon (of which most sexy underpants are made). I know people who couldn't wear nylon underpants for as much as an hour or two without it triggering a yeast infection. And yeah, someone with body shame is going to have a hard time talking about this with a partner.
posted by Sidhedevil at 10:42 AM on April 16, 2009
Are you happy?
Two Options..
a) Yes ... continue down the same path.
b) No.. DTMFA!
If it was me.. it would be option B. And find someone else without all those hangups. Life is too short!
posted by boomcha76 at 11:08 AM on April 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
Two Options..
a) Yes ... continue down the same path.
b) No.. DTMFA!
If it was me.. it would be option B. And find someone else without all those hangups. Life is too short!
posted by boomcha76 at 11:08 AM on April 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
Your expectations are not at all unfair, but what this sounds like to me is that she has some body-image issues of her own that are pre-existing and totally independent of her relationship with you. Try broaching the subject lightly by telling her how beautiful you think she is and how you'd like to see more of her... literally. Be appreciative (in a loving, not necessarily sex-seeking) way when you *do* see her naked. Make this about positive re-inforcement when you do get to see her naked and not negative re-inforcement (i.e. "Why don't I ever get to see you naked?!").
Ask her what kind of things SHE would be into: i.e. "Oh hey, I saw this really gorgeous bra/whatever in the window at the mall the other day - would you be into getting something like that? I thought it would look great on you." Make it about HER and not about what YOU want.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 3:09 PM on April 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
Ask her what kind of things SHE would be into: i.e. "Oh hey, I saw this really gorgeous bra/whatever in the window at the mall the other day - would you be into getting something like that? I thought it would look great on you." Make it about HER and not about what YOU want.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 3:09 PM on April 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
This is one of those situations which has run don't walk as soon as you're able to clear the door. She is not a functional human being. There is no compromise in there. No discussion. No point in sticking around because you will never be a sharing couple, you will cater and she will demand. If you stick with this you will be much much wiser in a couple of years, but the cost of your education will have been exorbitantly high.
posted by ptm at 8:03 PM on April 16, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by ptm at 8:03 PM on April 16, 2009 [2 favorites]
In the movie "Friends With Money" Frances McDormand's character is talking to her probably-gay husband about Catherine Keener and Jason Isaacs' relationship. She says, "Can you believe, she's never even seen his asshole?!" and they laugh about it as they go home and you realize that their relationship is just fine and it works although you can't imagine how, and that it isn't your job to judge him for probably being a closet-case and her for being a fag hag and that you should just mind your own business and quit basing your assumptions about what works in a relationship on what would or wouldn't work for you.
But it highlights the fact that relationships come in all shapes and sizes. You and your girlfriend may need different things. And that's okay.
posted by greekphilosophy at 11:58 AM on April 17, 2009
But it highlights the fact that relationships come in all shapes and sizes. You and your girlfriend may need different things. And that's okay.
posted by greekphilosophy at 11:58 AM on April 17, 2009
She's letting you have sex with her, but not see her? That seems more than a little odd to me.
To those who are commenting that anonymous is being unreasonable by asking her to step outside of her comfort zone: it's a relationship. You're supposed to give a little, take a little, and meet somewhere in the middle. It is -not- unreasonable to expect a little so-called selfish "you" time. Anonymous has, after all, been in the relationship for 6 months; which, despite what some are claiming, it quite enough time to at least be able to broach the idea of "working this out" with her hangups or fears etc.
If nothing else: why not try a blindfold? It would keep her in the dark, literally, if that's the only way she can get turned on, or if she's afraid of seeing your rejection or discomfort about her body, and would be more than a little kinky for you. Problem solved.
posted by Nox at 7:36 AM on April 26, 2009
To those who are commenting that anonymous is being unreasonable by asking her to step outside of her comfort zone: it's a relationship. You're supposed to give a little, take a little, and meet somewhere in the middle. It is -not- unreasonable to expect a little so-called selfish "you" time. Anonymous has, after all, been in the relationship for 6 months; which, despite what some are claiming, it quite enough time to at least be able to broach the idea of "working this out" with her hangups or fears etc.
If nothing else: why not try a blindfold? It would keep her in the dark, literally, if that's the only way she can get turned on, or if she's afraid of seeing your rejection or discomfort about her body, and would be more than a little kinky for you. Problem solved.
posted by Nox at 7:36 AM on April 26, 2009
Id agree with the whole self esteem thing up-thread. And yes, you definately need to talk to her about this, because the internet can never know for sure.
But id like to point out - a blindfold may not help. Be careful suggesting that, i think its *more* un-nerving to know that your partner can stare at every little bit of you and you have no idea where his eyes are resting.
Could you try a compromise between lights on and lights off though? Computer screens, weak lamp bulbs and the like dont provide the same level of glare that can make your flaws feel all so obvious.
posted by stillnocturnal at 4:55 PM on January 9, 2010
But id like to point out - a blindfold may not help. Be careful suggesting that, i think its *more* un-nerving to know that your partner can stare at every little bit of you and you have no idea where his eyes are resting.
Could you try a compromise between lights on and lights off though? Computer screens, weak lamp bulbs and the like dont provide the same level of glare that can make your flaws feel all so obvious.
posted by stillnocturnal at 4:55 PM on January 9, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
You can suggest she wear something once in a while, or surprise her by setting up candles before she comes home and bringing her to the bedroom, but keep in mind that people don't change unless they want to. Is this stuff a dealbreaker for you? Consider that.
posted by cmgonzalez at 12:02 AM on April 16, 2009