Love is blind? I am a crappy friend?
April 14, 2009 4:56 AM Subscribe
My friend is getting married this summer. I have concerns but I've kept my mouth shut... should I say something? Help me to be a good friend.
My friend is 20 years old. She met her fiance 7 months ago. They'd been friends for 4 months when left to move back to Europe (he was at our university on exchange for one semester), 1 1/2 months of which they spent as friends with benefits. A couple of weeks after he had moved back to Europe, they decided to make a go of it long distance. They've been in a long distance relationship for 3 months now. She recently announced that they are now engaged and will be getting married this summer.
It's not just the fact that she's very young and this has been quite the whirlwind courtship... he's also the first boyfriend she's ever had, and she lost her virginity with him. Neither of them are finished school. In fact, my friend is dropping out of university now to move to Europe to be with him (she's switching to another degree, one she can do by correspondence with a different college). Neither of them plan on holding down jobs while going to school full time (my friend's current job is walking her grandmother's dog). She's planning to rely on hand outs from her parents. He's planning to rely on a small amount of savings from his summer job.
Her family is aware of her intentions, and they seem supportive. His family has yet to meet her, and I'm not sure whether they are aware of how serious it's gotten.
They're both GREAT people, two of the kindest, most generous people I know. I was thrilled for my friend that she finally found love, so I hesitated to rain on her parade by bombarding her with questions about the practicalities. She had talked about marriage from the start, which did concern me a tiny bit, but I wrote it off as excited puppy-love fantasizing about the future. By the time she told me they were actually dead serious about getting married (just a couple of weeks ago), they had already ordered the rings from the jeweler. I bit my tongue and congratulated her.
Today we met up with a mutual friend who we hadn't seen in a long time, so there was lots of catching up to do, and my friend retold the whole story of her romance. The mutual friend did ask a few questions, and it became painfully obvious how little my friend and her fiance have thought about the reality of marriage and being on their own - all of the above information regarding the financial aspects of her move only came out today. It also came out that her fiance hasn't actually been accepted to the university in the city where they plan on moving to yet (he's "pretty confident" that he will be)... and she has yet to officially register for her own college program.
I've been feeling terrible ever since. When she first told me two weeks ago, I figured that since her family was supportive and I'm a good friend but not her closest, it wasn't my place to say anything about it. But in hindsight, I think I should have...
I'm several years older than her. My boyfriend is the same age as me. We've both had plenty of previous romantic and sexual experiences. My boyfriend and I are in a long distance relationship, so we are proof that while LDRs are difficult, they're not impossible. My boyfriend and I started out in nearly identical circumstances, but we've been together for 2 1/2 years. Our plan is for him to make the move sometime this year after we've both finished our degrees and have some work experience in our fields (he is currently a junior analyst with a prestigious global firm, I am graduating from law school with a secure articling position). Despite how clearly committed and "ready" we are, we have no inclinations to go rushing to the altar.
I know what first love feels like, how it feels to truly believe in your heart that love so strong could never end. I know the heartbreak of realizing that love is not always forever. I've known her since she was 17. I'm supposed to be a role model of sorts, and I feel like I blew it.
Should I say anything now, or is it too late? If I do bring it up, what can I possibly say? She's moving away in ONE WEEK. Help!
My friend is 20 years old. She met her fiance 7 months ago. They'd been friends for 4 months when left to move back to Europe (he was at our university on exchange for one semester), 1 1/2 months of which they spent as friends with benefits. A couple of weeks after he had moved back to Europe, they decided to make a go of it long distance. They've been in a long distance relationship for 3 months now. She recently announced that they are now engaged and will be getting married this summer.
It's not just the fact that she's very young and this has been quite the whirlwind courtship... he's also the first boyfriend she's ever had, and she lost her virginity with him. Neither of them are finished school. In fact, my friend is dropping out of university now to move to Europe to be with him (she's switching to another degree, one she can do by correspondence with a different college). Neither of them plan on holding down jobs while going to school full time (my friend's current job is walking her grandmother's dog). She's planning to rely on hand outs from her parents. He's planning to rely on a small amount of savings from his summer job.
Her family is aware of her intentions, and they seem supportive. His family has yet to meet her, and I'm not sure whether they are aware of how serious it's gotten.
They're both GREAT people, two of the kindest, most generous people I know. I was thrilled for my friend that she finally found love, so I hesitated to rain on her parade by bombarding her with questions about the practicalities. She had talked about marriage from the start, which did concern me a tiny bit, but I wrote it off as excited puppy-love fantasizing about the future. By the time she told me they were actually dead serious about getting married (just a couple of weeks ago), they had already ordered the rings from the jeweler. I bit my tongue and congratulated her.
Today we met up with a mutual friend who we hadn't seen in a long time, so there was lots of catching up to do, and my friend retold the whole story of her romance. The mutual friend did ask a few questions, and it became painfully obvious how little my friend and her fiance have thought about the reality of marriage and being on their own - all of the above information regarding the financial aspects of her move only came out today. It also came out that her fiance hasn't actually been accepted to the university in the city where they plan on moving to yet (he's "pretty confident" that he will be)... and she has yet to officially register for her own college program.
I've been feeling terrible ever since. When she first told me two weeks ago, I figured that since her family was supportive and I'm a good friend but not her closest, it wasn't my place to say anything about it. But in hindsight, I think I should have...
I'm several years older than her. My boyfriend is the same age as me. We've both had plenty of previous romantic and sexual experiences. My boyfriend and I are in a long distance relationship, so we are proof that while LDRs are difficult, they're not impossible. My boyfriend and I started out in nearly identical circumstances, but we've been together for 2 1/2 years. Our plan is for him to make the move sometime this year after we've both finished our degrees and have some work experience in our fields (he is currently a junior analyst with a prestigious global firm, I am graduating from law school with a secure articling position). Despite how clearly committed and "ready" we are, we have no inclinations to go rushing to the altar.
I know what first love feels like, how it feels to truly believe in your heart that love so strong could never end. I know the heartbreak of realizing that love is not always forever. I've known her since she was 17. I'm supposed to be a role model of sorts, and I feel like I blew it.
Should I say anything now, or is it too late? If I do bring it up, what can I possibly say? She's moving away in ONE WEEK. Help!
Best answer: From a purely practical point of view, this is awkward. You may not have to say anything because, depending on the nationality of her passport and where they plan to move, immigration will have plenty to say.
For example, if she is an American moving to the UK and planning to come in on a fiance visa, she'll be required to stay in the US and apply from there while her intended sets up house in the UK. If she plans to come in on a student visa, she will need to have a firm acceptance in hand, plus evidence that she has the money to support herself through studentship, regardless of her marriage plans. If she plans to enter on a tourist visa when that isn't really the case... she'll be deported.
I may be a bit hazy on the details, and these of course will vary by country, but the fact that the move probably won't go smoothly is enough to introduce cooling-off and hard-thinking time into what they're about to do. It will probably sort itself out.
posted by methylsalicylate at 5:06 AM on April 14, 2009
For example, if she is an American moving to the UK and planning to come in on a fiance visa, she'll be required to stay in the US and apply from there while her intended sets up house in the UK. If she plans to come in on a student visa, she will need to have a firm acceptance in hand, plus evidence that she has the money to support herself through studentship, regardless of her marriage plans. If she plans to enter on a tourist visa when that isn't really the case... she'll be deported.
I may be a bit hazy on the details, and these of course will vary by country, but the fact that the move probably won't go smoothly is enough to introduce cooling-off and hard-thinking time into what they're about to do. It will probably sort itself out.
posted by methylsalicylate at 5:06 AM on April 14, 2009
No. Keep quiet, be happy for your friend, and don't offer any unsolicited advice. Otherwise, if the relationship works out, you'll be the friend who nearly killed it. On the other hand, if it all goes to hell, be the best friend you can. That's all you can (or should) do.
posted by le morte de bea arthur at 5:09 AM on April 14, 2009 [7 favorites]
posted by le morte de bea arthur at 5:09 AM on April 14, 2009 [7 favorites]
It doesn't sound like marriage is the problem, it sounds like personal irresponsibility/naivete is. The marriage is orthogonal to the other living issues, if they're serious about each other.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 5:09 AM on April 14, 2009
posted by Optimus Chyme at 5:09 AM on April 14, 2009
Best answer: If they're both great people, they might very well be right for each other. I wouldn't say anything about the marriage plans. But I would talk to her about the logistics of the situation, and try to tactfully bring her to a realization of the need for being very practical and realistic in terms of planning and financial management. Ask her in a casual way about where she plans to live, whether they can get student loans for tuition, how they plan to handle immigration issues, etc.
And I think it would be a good idea for you to, um, retire the idea that you're a role model for this girl. She may not see you in that light at all. And it's a little odd that you found it necessary to go into your own history with your boyfriend and how you've got the career and financial stuff all nailed down but still aren't planning to marry, with the implication being that therefore your friend and her intended can't possibly be ready either. Not everyone takes that path. Some people do get married first and then they work out all the other life stuff together.
posted by orange swan at 5:11 AM on April 14, 2009 [9 favorites]
And I think it would be a good idea for you to, um, retire the idea that you're a role model for this girl. She may not see you in that light at all. And it's a little odd that you found it necessary to go into your own history with your boyfriend and how you've got the career and financial stuff all nailed down but still aren't planning to marry, with the implication being that therefore your friend and her intended can't possibly be ready either. Not everyone takes that path. Some people do get married first and then they work out all the other life stuff together.
posted by orange swan at 5:11 AM on April 14, 2009 [9 favorites]
Best answer: Don't say a thing. Continue being supportive and pretend like you're happy for the couple.
I'm like you. I'm cautious. I plan. I don't rush into much and I'm not likely to be swept up or lose my mind for romantic love. But there is something admirable and sweet about people like your friend. I think you should give her the benefit of the doubt. This could be a successful relationship. No matter how grounded, or free-spirited, we are we all mature and learn from our relationships. She'll find out on her own that love can't pay the rent.
It also came out that her fiance hasn't actually been accepted to the university in the city where they plan on moving to yet (he's "pretty confident" that he will be)... and she has yet to officially register for her own college program.
In the past this would leave me thinking they their heads were in the clouds, but I wish I were more like this guy. He's pretty confident that he will get in and he probably will. So what if he doesn't get in? He sounds like he's a positive person and will go to plan B if it doesn't work out as he had hoped. This shouldn't be a "I told you so" moment. People run their lives differently.
Bottom line. Their marriage and life plans are none of your business. It's a private matter. The most gracious thing you can do is continue being happy for the young couple.
posted by Fairchild at 5:18 AM on April 14, 2009 [1 favorite]
I'm like you. I'm cautious. I plan. I don't rush into much and I'm not likely to be swept up or lose my mind for romantic love. But there is something admirable and sweet about people like your friend. I think you should give her the benefit of the doubt. This could be a successful relationship. No matter how grounded, or free-spirited, we are we all mature and learn from our relationships. She'll find out on her own that love can't pay the rent.
It also came out that her fiance hasn't actually been accepted to the university in the city where they plan on moving to yet (he's "pretty confident" that he will be)... and she has yet to officially register for her own college program.
In the past this would leave me thinking they their heads were in the clouds, but I wish I were more like this guy. He's pretty confident that he will get in and he probably will. So what if he doesn't get in? He sounds like he's a positive person and will go to plan B if it doesn't work out as he had hoped. This shouldn't be a "I told you so" moment. People run their lives differently.
Bottom line. Their marriage and life plans are none of your business. It's a private matter. The most gracious thing you can do is continue being happy for the young couple.
posted by Fairchild at 5:18 AM on April 14, 2009 [1 favorite]
Nthing the advice not to say anything. The minute marriage is being talked about, even with huge logistical issues like moving abroad where such advice may seem wise to you (I've been there - on the advice front) it just seems to come across to them as jealousy or selfishness. Frustrating, but the best thing you can do is try and be the best friend you can.
posted by opsin at 5:36 AM on April 14, 2009
posted by opsin at 5:36 AM on April 14, 2009
methylsalicylate, from what she's told me, they're counting on the marriage to secure her residency in Europe. To complicate things further, neither of them have citizenship in the country that they're actually moving to... but that might not be a problem because of the EU? It might be a good thing to bring up with her.
Thanks orange swan... but I happen to know that she does view me in that light. She and my boyfriend are also good friends, and she treats us like both like older siblings. She had a very sheltered upbringing and was the youngest in our student residence. A group of us sort of took her under our wing. She still acts much younger than her age - that's not to say anything negative about her, it's just a fact that she hasn't experienced much of the world.
I acknowledge that not everyone is going to be as practical and methodical as my boyfriend and I have been. The timeline my friend and her fiance are on just seems awfully rushed for anybody, let alone such a young and inexperienced couple. Can you blame me for worrying?
posted by keep it under cover at 5:39 AM on April 14, 2009
Thanks orange swan... but I happen to know that she does view me in that light. She and my boyfriend are also good friends, and she treats us like both like older siblings. She had a very sheltered upbringing and was the youngest in our student residence. A group of us sort of took her under our wing. She still acts much younger than her age - that's not to say anything negative about her, it's just a fact that she hasn't experienced much of the world.
I acknowledge that not everyone is going to be as practical and methodical as my boyfriend and I have been. The timeline my friend and her fiance are on just seems awfully rushed for anybody, let alone such a young and inexperienced couple. Can you blame me for worrying?
posted by keep it under cover at 5:39 AM on April 14, 2009
Here's some advice for both of you while I'm still hopped up on my morning caffeine:
1. You're allowed one talk where you can be as dick-ish as you want in expressing your concerns. Friends like you, grounded in reality, are the sort of friends everyone should have. In fact you'd be less of a friend if you didn't speak up now. A unbiased, concerned talk will do your friend some good.
2. You seem overly cautious in life. Don't be. Nothing in the world comes can guarantee safety & security. Some things can fail despite taking every precaution possible, some things succeed even though they seem hasty and ill-conceived. To quote Gandalf: "Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
posted by the_ancient_mariner at 5:40 AM on April 14, 2009
1. You're allowed one talk where you can be as dick-ish as you want in expressing your concerns. Friends like you, grounded in reality, are the sort of friends everyone should have. In fact you'd be less of a friend if you didn't speak up now. A unbiased, concerned talk will do your friend some good.
2. You seem overly cautious in life. Don't be. Nothing in the world comes can guarantee safety & security. Some things can fail despite taking every precaution possible, some things succeed even though they seem hasty and ill-conceived. To quote Gandalf: "Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
posted by the_ancient_mariner at 5:40 AM on April 14, 2009
It's not just the fact that she's very young and this has been quite the whirlwind courtship... he's also the first boyfriend she's ever had, and she lost her virginity with him.
I've been with my first boyfriend for nearly 8 years. Just because she picked a good one the first time around, doesn't mean he's the wrong choice.
Neither of them plan on holding down jobs while going to school full time
Thats not particularly unusual.
She's planning to rely on hand outs from her parents... Her family is aware of her intentions, and they seem supportive.
...so what is your problem again? She's wants to sponge off her parents, they're happy for her to do so, I see no problem there.
would you feel differently if they were staying in the US and living together rather than being married in Europe. The practicalities really aren't much different, other than your friend will be the foreigner not her boyfriend/husband.
posted by missmagenta at 5:49 AM on April 14, 2009 [3 favorites]
I've been with my first boyfriend for nearly 8 years. Just because she picked a good one the first time around, doesn't mean he's the wrong choice.
Neither of them plan on holding down jobs while going to school full time
Thats not particularly unusual.
She's planning to rely on hand outs from her parents... Her family is aware of her intentions, and they seem supportive.
...so what is your problem again? She's wants to sponge off her parents, they're happy for her to do so, I see no problem there.
would you feel differently if they were staying in the US and living together rather than being married in Europe. The practicalities really aren't much different, other than your friend will be the foreigner not her boyfriend/husband.
posted by missmagenta at 5:49 AM on April 14, 2009 [3 favorites]
Best answer: There's no rule saying you need to have sexual experiences with multiple people or have multiple serious relationships before you marry. Granted, they haven't been together that long, especially in person, but it's not like she should be barred from marrying him just because he's her first.
Also, a great way for people to learn is to figure things out for themselves. By telling her not do to these things, you're just continuing to shelter her. Either her plan will work out, or it won't. If it doesn't, it seems less likely that it will be because of the marriage, and more likely that it will be because their immigration or school plans don't pan out for them.
I would leave it alone and let her try to figure this one out herself. If you were her parents and were providing the financial support, you would have more ground to stand on to judge her decisions, but if they're okay with supporting them, all she can do is try and see if it works out.
posted by fructose at 6:00 AM on April 14, 2009
Also, a great way for people to learn is to figure things out for themselves. By telling her not do to these things, you're just continuing to shelter her. Either her plan will work out, or it won't. If it doesn't, it seems less likely that it will be because of the marriage, and more likely that it will be because their immigration or school plans don't pan out for them.
I would leave it alone and let her try to figure this one out herself. If you were her parents and were providing the financial support, you would have more ground to stand on to judge her decisions, but if they're okay with supporting them, all she can do is try and see if it works out.
posted by fructose at 6:00 AM on April 14, 2009
methylsalicylate, from what she's told me, they're counting on the marriage to secure her residency in Europe. To complicate things further, neither of them have citizenship in the country that they're actually moving to... but that might not be a problem because of the EU? It might be a good thing to bring up with her.
As a friend, certainly one of the things you can do is help research these things on her behalf. Immigration missteps are the types of things that can haunt you for a long time.
I'm a bit with missmagenta here. If her family approves of all of this and if she didn't come to you before (i.e. seeking your advice) then it doesn't sound like there's much you can do now nor much, in my opinion, you should do. Except, as noted above, help her.
Not in a "You're young and stupid. Let me try and fix this" way but more of a "I'm your friend. This is what you want to do. How can I help you make sure it goes seamlessly?" way.
posted by vacapinta at 6:06 AM on April 14, 2009 [2 favorites]
As a friend, certainly one of the things you can do is help research these things on her behalf. Immigration missteps are the types of things that can haunt you for a long time.
I'm a bit with missmagenta here. If her family approves of all of this and if she didn't come to you before (i.e. seeking your advice) then it doesn't sound like there's much you can do now nor much, in my opinion, you should do. Except, as noted above, help her.
Not in a "You're young and stupid. Let me try and fix this" way but more of a "I'm your friend. This is what you want to do. How can I help you make sure it goes seamlessly?" way.
posted by vacapinta at 6:06 AM on April 14, 2009 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I would sincerely ask questions about how they plan on making things work - questions that would make her actually think about it possibly being difficult, questions about $$, finding a place to live, citizenship, deciding where to live long-term (kids? the rest of your family?) doing it all with someone you don't know that well, what if he does this while she wants that, etc.
I'm like you, I would need to plan and make sure the marriage is practical, but my friend recently told me something that I realized is true - so what if it's a mistake and they get divorced after a year? It's not the worst thing, it's a learning experience, and you can be there for her if things go bad. It's not like she's marrying a druggie who beats her, or a guy who's been usign her for money or manipulates her - you said they're both good people, so there's a chance this might work out. And if not, then not the worst thing to ever happen to anyone.
posted by KateHasQuestions at 6:09 AM on April 14, 2009
I'm like you, I would need to plan and make sure the marriage is practical, but my friend recently told me something that I realized is true - so what if it's a mistake and they get divorced after a year? It's not the worst thing, it's a learning experience, and you can be there for her if things go bad. It's not like she's marrying a druggie who beats her, or a guy who's been usign her for money or manipulates her - you said they're both good people, so there's a chance this might work out. And if not, then not the worst thing to ever happen to anyone.
posted by KateHasQuestions at 6:09 AM on April 14, 2009
My advice is to keep it under cover.
If you're absolutely certain your friend views you as a role model or similar, then it might not hurt to discuss the practicalities, but you don't want to say "This is a bad idea and can not end well." If you stay within the context of wanting to help, without belittling her ideas/plans, then you can hopefully remain on the good side of the friendship regardless of how things work out with the marriage plans.
posted by owtytrof at 6:19 AM on April 14, 2009
If you're absolutely certain your friend views you as a role model or similar, then it might not hurt to discuss the practicalities, but you don't want to say "This is a bad idea and can not end well." If you stay within the context of wanting to help, without belittling her ideas/plans, then you can hopefully remain on the good side of the friendship regardless of how things work out with the marriage plans.
posted by owtytrof at 6:19 AM on April 14, 2009
I think that there's no tactful way to express your concerns about marriage, especially since much of your argument seems to be, If my boyfriend and I aren't ready to marry, then you and your boyfriend can't possibly be ready!
Ask questions about the moving plans. Help her solidify them. Help her anticipate obstacles. Help her form a Plan B in case she can't get residency. Those are helpful things to do.
posted by christinetheslp at 6:20 AM on April 14, 2009 [2 favorites]
Ask questions about the moving plans. Help her solidify them. Help her anticipate obstacles. Help her form a Plan B in case she can't get residency. Those are helpful things to do.
posted by christinetheslp at 6:20 AM on April 14, 2009 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Basically, as long as it doesn't look actively nasty (abusive partner, or you think she is about to be trafficked into coercive sex-work, or something yucky like that), and she is happy, and her family is happy, and her boyfriend/fiance is happy -- why would you rain on that parade?
Yes, she is taking a very different life path than you have chosen. But yours isn't the only option that is good and can work. Plenty of people make other choices and end up just as happy twenty years later. (In fact, I suspect that people like her, who jump into new experiences whole-heartedly, have many fewer "coulda/shoulda" regrets as they age.)
For example, you have focused intensely on the "they have no money!" issue, which is clearly different from how you have chosen to live your own life. But the truth is that one can live very cheaply as a student in Europe, and it would probably be an excellent experience in real life for her to spend a few months working under the table in a bar or something like that. They both have excellent family safety nets; they aren't going to end up sleeping under a bridge unless they choose to. They are going to have a fun youthful adventure, very romantic, and will have great stories twenty years from now.
I'd even back out of the immigration advice role. Let her go over as a tourist, live with him, and figure things out. (Though hopefully she has thought about what to say, and what not to say, to the immigration authorities when she lands in Europe -- the wrong answer could get her sent straight home, which would be very sad.) Be a supportive friend -- it's ok to say "gee, this is all really fast and scary to me, and I'm worried about you; please stay in touch, ok?" but don't take on the role of the voice of doom, predicting disaster and focusing on the problems.
posted by Forktine at 6:22 AM on April 14, 2009
Yes, she is taking a very different life path than you have chosen. But yours isn't the only option that is good and can work. Plenty of people make other choices and end up just as happy twenty years later. (In fact, I suspect that people like her, who jump into new experiences whole-heartedly, have many fewer "coulda/shoulda" regrets as they age.)
For example, you have focused intensely on the "they have no money!" issue, which is clearly different from how you have chosen to live your own life. But the truth is that one can live very cheaply as a student in Europe, and it would probably be an excellent experience in real life for her to spend a few months working under the table in a bar or something like that. They both have excellent family safety nets; they aren't going to end up sleeping under a bridge unless they choose to. They are going to have a fun youthful adventure, very romantic, and will have great stories twenty years from now.
I'd even back out of the immigration advice role. Let her go over as a tourist, live with him, and figure things out. (Though hopefully she has thought about what to say, and what not to say, to the immigration authorities when she lands in Europe -- the wrong answer could get her sent straight home, which would be very sad.) Be a supportive friend -- it's ok to say "gee, this is all really fast and scary to me, and I'm worried about you; please stay in touch, ok?" but don't take on the role of the voice of doom, predicting disaster and focusing on the problems.
posted by Forktine at 6:22 AM on April 14, 2009
I wouldn't say anything about it, personally. The boyfriend doesn't seem to be a jerk, and they may certainly have unrealistic expectations for the future. That's the case for many people, no matter the age. Maybe you can ask specific questions about something you are actually concerned about - not high-level ideas of what you think is right or wrong regarding the progression of a relationship. I know you're concerned, but you can't try to plan her life for her.
On Preview: KateHasQuestions pretty much spells it out.
posted by shinynewnick at 6:24 AM on April 14, 2009
On Preview: KateHasQuestions pretty much spells it out.
posted by shinynewnick at 6:24 AM on April 14, 2009
Is she the kind of person who would take being a young divorceé all that badly? Because I know several young divorceés and I'm not sure it's entirely such a bad thing, especially if you get an "I met my true love and moved to Europe, but it was not to be" sort of story out of it.
Seems to me like, if you just encourage them to wait to have kids - which she certainly has lots of time to get around to - and be prudent in a couple of other small ways, even with a cataclysmically-ending marriage this needn't be more regrettable than some tattoos are. Unless you're big on supernatural sanctity of marriage or something.
posted by XMLicious at 6:33 AM on April 14, 2009
Seems to me like, if you just encourage them to wait to have kids - which she certainly has lots of time to get around to - and be prudent in a couple of other small ways, even with a cataclysmically-ending marriage this needn't be more regrettable than some tattoos are. Unless you're big on supernatural sanctity of marriage or something.
posted by XMLicious at 6:33 AM on April 14, 2009
I got engaged to an American while we were living in the UK. This immediately produces two sets of complex problems to resolve. First of all you have all the planning problems of an ordinary wedding (given an extra twist by a few thousand miles of Atlantic between the two sides of the family). At the same time you have to worry about a whole load of bureaucratic issues: work permits, residency permits, taxation and so on.
To stop getting overwhelmed by this we chose to deal with the regulatory stuff by getting married quietly in a registry office. That made the paperwork much easier.
A few months later we had what we regarded as a proper wedding: friends, reception, honeymoon, etc. (Technically it was a blessing - but it looked and felt like a wedding).
If you decide to help your friends, as others have suggested, you could try suggesting an option like this.
posted by rongorongo at 6:49 AM on April 14, 2009
To stop getting overwhelmed by this we chose to deal with the regulatory stuff by getting married quietly in a registry office. That made the paperwork much easier.
A few months later we had what we regarded as a proper wedding: friends, reception, honeymoon, etc. (Technically it was a blessing - but it looked and felt like a wedding).
If you decide to help your friends, as others have suggested, you could try suggesting an option like this.
posted by rongorongo at 6:49 AM on April 14, 2009
Best answer: Here's the thing: you have asked this question about an upcoming marriage. That's not your question, and the unfortunate part is, you've got a lot of people here answering questions that have been answered before about an upcoming marriage.
Your question should've been phrased as so: My friend might be putting herself in a perilous situation financially and legally. What should I tell her?
The fact of the matter is, people have gotten married with less preparation and been together for years and years, and people have gotten married after 5 years of relationship and then broken up. But you are correct that this not thinking about immigration and finances and everything else will be a problem for them. So forget the marriage stuff: that'll either work or not. Concentrate on talking to your friend about more responsible planning for the future. At no time should you suggest that she not get married.
posted by TypographicalError at 6:51 AM on April 14, 2009 [1 favorite]
Your question should've been phrased as so: My friend might be putting herself in a perilous situation financially and legally. What should I tell her?
The fact of the matter is, people have gotten married with less preparation and been together for years and years, and people have gotten married after 5 years of relationship and then broken up. But you are correct that this not thinking about immigration and finances and everything else will be a problem for them. So forget the marriage stuff: that'll either work or not. Concentrate on talking to your friend about more responsible planning for the future. At no time should you suggest that she not get married.
posted by TypographicalError at 6:51 AM on April 14, 2009 [1 favorite]
Good balance of advice here. I fall more on the DO let her know you are worried about her, but not in a "I'm so wise because I'm older than you and my boyfriend has a job" way, more like a "Outside observer sees more that she can about the irrationality of her decisions" typeofthing. As long as you come at it from an impartial but concerned perspective, and make it clear that you will respect whatever she does, at worst she may be a little annoyed, but then in 6-7 years when it falls apart you get to say "I told you so," and look like Nostradamus.
Frankly I advocate for a dog-collar implanted at birth that gives people electric shocks if they try to get married or have kids before they turn 30, but that's a long way off.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:54 AM on April 14, 2009
Frankly I advocate for a dog-collar implanted at birth that gives people electric shocks if they try to get married or have kids before they turn 30, but that's a long way off.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:54 AM on April 14, 2009
What's the big deal? It's a starter marriage. It will either work out or it won't. That's why divorce is legal.
posted by musofire at 6:54 AM on April 14, 2009
posted by musofire at 6:54 AM on April 14, 2009
I met my husband online twelve years ago - we were on different continents. We got married 8 months after that first chat, after being together physically only a few weeks with breaks in between. We cried through the whole ceremony.
Marriage was the only way we could be together and being together was all that mattered.
I had just finished school and my husband graduated the day after our wedding. We figured the practical stuff out along the way. We were young, we had time, and we had love. The whole world was ours.
Looking back, I am completely amazed and grateful that none of our family or friends had anything but joy for us.
posted by Dragonness at 7:19 AM on April 14, 2009 [4 favorites]
Marriage was the only way we could be together and being together was all that mattered.
I had just finished school and my husband graduated the day after our wedding. We figured the practical stuff out along the way. We were young, we had time, and we had love. The whole world was ours.
Looking back, I am completely amazed and grateful that none of our family or friends had anything but joy for us.
posted by Dragonness at 7:19 AM on April 14, 2009 [4 favorites]
No. The only time you express concern about a friend's engagement is when the other party is a) abusive b) cheating c) wanted by the police d) drug addict e) some or all of the above. Otherwise, you let them make their own mistakes.
posted by desjardins at 7:37 AM on April 14, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by desjardins at 7:37 AM on April 14, 2009 [2 favorites]
Thanks everyone for your thoughtful replies.
Fairchild, I totally agree. I do admire their spontaneity and the whole thing is deliciously romantic. My friend has always sort of marched to the beat of her own drum, and while half of my heart worries for her, the other half feels that she's really found "her lobster." I want to emphasize that I absolutely adore her fiance and I think they're a terrific couple. She knows this, which is why I was just about the first person she told. I have consistently had her back when other people have reacted less than enthusiastically to news about her engagement. She has no idea that I have any reservations, which might be the root of all this guilt I'm feeling that perhaps I've been doing the wrong thing all along. Most of the replies so far seem to indicate that I should continue this way.
I'm not religious (at all) and my concern is not for the sanctity of marriage, I suppose it's my view that marriage is just a piece of paper that doesn't make a relationship any more committed or "real" in an emotional sense, but it is a piece of paper that comes with a whole bunch of legal obligations that could become landmines if things go sour. That's why I have such a "why rush" mentality about it. I used to have very romantic notions about marriage, until I took a Family Law class and was slapped in the face with some pretty cruel realities. You can really count on lawyers to ruin anything and everything, huh?
But yes, I do know that people marry for intensely personal reasons, none of which are any of my business.
Forktine, you bring up a really good point. I'll definitely ask her if she's thought of what she'll to immigration authorities ... she gets nervous when a waiter asks for her order, I cringe to think of how she would respond to a line of questioning from a sticky customs officer. You also reminded me of another thing. They're actually planning on living in one of the most expensive cities in the world.
I know, I KNOW... I'm getting all hung up again. I'm just scared that a whole mountain of reality is going to come crashing down on her. Obviously I'm not wishing this on her, I'm not sitting here rubbing my hands together and waiting for my chance to say, "HAH! I told you so!" like some of the replies seem to suggest. I know there's nothing I can do to shelter her from it, but I feel like it would be negligent of me not to make sure she has some idea of what she's in for. True, no relationship is without its obstacles, but she's really doing the equivalent of Laguna Seca with a learner license. I'll be in the stands cheering, but that doesn't mean my heart won't be in my throat.
I'll casually ask some questions, but leave things alone unless she specifically asks for help.
Thanks again. :)
posted by keep it under cover at 7:50 AM on April 14, 2009
Fairchild, I totally agree. I do admire their spontaneity and the whole thing is deliciously romantic. My friend has always sort of marched to the beat of her own drum, and while half of my heart worries for her, the other half feels that she's really found "her lobster." I want to emphasize that I absolutely adore her fiance and I think they're a terrific couple. She knows this, which is why I was just about the first person she told. I have consistently had her back when other people have reacted less than enthusiastically to news about her engagement. She has no idea that I have any reservations, which might be the root of all this guilt I'm feeling that perhaps I've been doing the wrong thing all along. Most of the replies so far seem to indicate that I should continue this way.
I'm not religious (at all) and my concern is not for the sanctity of marriage, I suppose it's my view that marriage is just a piece of paper that doesn't make a relationship any more committed or "real" in an emotional sense, but it is a piece of paper that comes with a whole bunch of legal obligations that could become landmines if things go sour. That's why I have such a "why rush" mentality about it. I used to have very romantic notions about marriage, until I took a Family Law class and was slapped in the face with some pretty cruel realities. You can really count on lawyers to ruin anything and everything, huh?
But yes, I do know that people marry for intensely personal reasons, none of which are any of my business.
Forktine, you bring up a really good point. I'll definitely ask her if she's thought of what she'll to immigration authorities ... she gets nervous when a waiter asks for her order, I cringe to think of how she would respond to a line of questioning from a sticky customs officer. You also reminded me of another thing. They're actually planning on living in one of the most expensive cities in the world.
I know, I KNOW... I'm getting all hung up again. I'm just scared that a whole mountain of reality is going to come crashing down on her. Obviously I'm not wishing this on her, I'm not sitting here rubbing my hands together and waiting for my chance to say, "HAH! I told you so!" like some of the replies seem to suggest. I know there's nothing I can do to shelter her from it, but I feel like it would be negligent of me not to make sure she has some idea of what she's in for. True, no relationship is without its obstacles, but she's really doing the equivalent of Laguna Seca with a learner license. I'll be in the stands cheering, but that doesn't mean my heart won't be in my throat.
I'll casually ask some questions, but leave things alone unless she specifically asks for help.
Thanks again. :)
posted by keep it under cover at 7:50 AM on April 14, 2009
FWIW, my brother went on a trip to France and three months later married the French girl he got pregnant: neither of them had a job, he was bartending on a break from college, etc - six years later they have adorable kids and he has a law degree.
A girl who came to my university on exchange from France met a boy here and got engaged after about six months - they're both art/drama types, they had trouble with visas for the wedding, but they were married a couple months later and so far everything is working out.
And I know a bunch of other similar stories, but the point is: hope for the best. Help her with the practicalities of the paperwork and immigration, if she's kind of impractical, but don't treat that as a reason to be hesitant about the marriage.
posted by jacalata at 8:44 AM on April 14, 2009
A girl who came to my university on exchange from France met a boy here and got engaged after about six months - they're both art/drama types, they had trouble with visas for the wedding, but they were married a couple months later and so far everything is working out.
And I know a bunch of other similar stories, but the point is: hope for the best. Help her with the practicalities of the paperwork and immigration, if she's kind of impractical, but don't treat that as a reason to be hesitant about the marriage.
posted by jacalata at 8:44 AM on April 14, 2009
I'm just scared that a whole mountain of reality is going to come crashing down on her.
It has to happen at some point, whether through this experience or something else. From what you've said, it seems that people hand-hold her through most things and she's probably overdue to stand on her own feet and take responsibility for what she does.
As you've been supportive about the relationship to this point, I think you could reasonably say (once) "Based on what I understand of immigration issues, you really ought to research the legal aspects of this."
If she chooses not to ... well... that's up to her to figure out.
posted by cranberrymonger at 8:54 AM on April 14, 2009
It has to happen at some point, whether through this experience or something else. From what you've said, it seems that people hand-hold her through most things and she's probably overdue to stand on her own feet and take responsibility for what she does.
As you've been supportive about the relationship to this point, I think you could reasonably say (once) "Based on what I understand of immigration issues, you really ought to research the legal aspects of this."
If she chooses not to ... well... that's up to her to figure out.
posted by cranberrymonger at 8:54 AM on April 14, 2009
When a good friend seems determined to do something that seems ill advised, the best thing to do is be supportive. If you tell them it won't work out and you are proven right, it will really strain the friendship and make it hard for her to come to you for support if the marriage does indeed fail.
I tried to talk a friend out of a cross country motorcycle trip, saying it was too dangerous. He was killed on that trip and I often regret having attempted to dissuade him and failing. Being right about upcoming tragedy is no fun for anyone.
posted by jester69 at 9:23 AM on April 14, 2009 [1 favorite]
I tried to talk a friend out of a cross country motorcycle trip, saying it was too dangerous. He was killed on that trip and I often regret having attempted to dissuade him and failing. Being right about upcoming tragedy is no fun for anyone.
posted by jester69 at 9:23 AM on April 14, 2009 [1 favorite]
I don't mean to come down on you but if you distill your answer, you think you know better than your friend who is involved in the situation and has more information. There appears to be no information that she is unaware of that you know about. Human beings are resillient--whatever mistakes she is going to make, she will recover from. Honor her choices and her judgment and you cannot go wrong.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:45 AM on April 14, 2009
posted by Ironmouth at 9:45 AM on April 14, 2009
Best answer: I think as an older person it's not inappropriate to say something. Maybe just something gentle like, "You know, marriage is a really serious step. You don't have to jump into anything." Were I her, i think I would appreciate it.
posted by Penelope at 9:50 AM on April 14, 2009
posted by Penelope at 9:50 AM on April 14, 2009
Best answer: I've learned that, when it comes to giving advice to friends, extreme subtlety and, most of all, consideration, should be utilized. In the past I've watched friends make mistakes not too far off from what your friends have done--for example, digging themselves deeply in credit card debt above and beyond very steep student loans to live in expensive areas of the country. It's difficult to watch friends make what you're sure must be mistakes, but if you tell them that they're screwing themselves over, you risk losing their friendship.
If you must say something, only say it once, and word it as delicately as possible. Avoid criticizing the relationship itself, especially as that's the one thing you sound comfortable with. Also extend an offer of your help if it's ever needed: "I'm worried about your financial future in Europe. If you ever need someone to talk to while you're over there, know that you can call me at any time." Then, and this is the most important part, add the following: "But you know that I love you and support you no matter what you do."
Really, make sure you don't leave out the last bit. What she really needs in this kind of (slightly scary, potentially isolating) situation is friendship, not criticism.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:59 AM on April 14, 2009
If you must say something, only say it once, and word it as delicately as possible. Avoid criticizing the relationship itself, especially as that's the one thing you sound comfortable with. Also extend an offer of your help if it's ever needed: "I'm worried about your financial future in Europe. If you ever need someone to talk to while you're over there, know that you can call me at any time." Then, and this is the most important part, add the following: "But you know that I love you and support you no matter what you do."
Really, make sure you don't leave out the last bit. What she really needs in this kind of (slightly scary, potentially isolating) situation is friendship, not criticism.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:59 AM on April 14, 2009
You know, Friend, I'm concerned about how you and Betrothed are going to manage all the changes that your marriage is going to create. If you want to talk about it, let me know. I'm happy that you and Betrothed found each other, and I want the best for you.
posted by theora55 at 12:07 PM on April 14, 2009
posted by theora55 at 12:07 PM on April 14, 2009
It was a teenage wedding, and the old folks wished them well
You could see that Pierre did truly love the madamoiselle
And now the young monsieur and madame have rung the chapel bell,
"C'est la vie", say the old folks, it goes to show you never can tell
They furnished off an apartment with a two room Roebuck sale
The coolerator was crammed with TV dinners and ginger ale,
But when Pierre found work, the little money comin' worked out well
"C'est la vie", say the old folks, it goes to show you never can tell
Chuck Berry had it right. You never can tell. A lot of people would've thought my first marriage was going to be great, and a lot of people were predicting doom for me and Mr. F before we'd even talked about marriage. All those people were wrong, as it turned out.
posted by fairytale of los angeles at 12:40 PM on April 14, 2009
You could see that Pierre did truly love the madamoiselle
And now the young monsieur and madame have rung the chapel bell,
"C'est la vie", say the old folks, it goes to show you never can tell
They furnished off an apartment with a two room Roebuck sale
The coolerator was crammed with TV dinners and ginger ale,
But when Pierre found work, the little money comin' worked out well
"C'est la vie", say the old folks, it goes to show you never can tell
Chuck Berry had it right. You never can tell. A lot of people would've thought my first marriage was going to be great, and a lot of people were predicting doom for me and Mr. F before we'd even talked about marriage. All those people were wrong, as it turned out.
posted by fairytale of los angeles at 12:40 PM on April 14, 2009
I'll casually ask some questions, but leave things alone unless she specifically asks for help.
keep it under cover, I think you have the right idea. You seem like a very caring, conscientious friend and I'm sure you'll handle it beautifully. Good luck.
posted by Fairchild at 2:13 PM on April 14, 2009
keep it under cover, I think you have the right idea. You seem like a very caring, conscientious friend and I'm sure you'll handle it beautifully. Good luck.
posted by Fairchild at 2:13 PM on April 14, 2009
Everyone has to learn from their own experiences and mistakes.
As much as you'd like to tell her your opinion, it's best to let her discover for herself.
Tough call though bc you care about the situation.
posted by banglespark at 6:10 PM on April 14, 2009
As much as you'd like to tell her your opinion, it's best to let her discover for herself.
Tough call though bc you care about the situation.
posted by banglespark at 6:10 PM on April 14, 2009
They're actually planning on living in one of the most expensive cities in the world.
Every expensive European city I can think of has lots of cheap (if crowded and sometimes dirty) student housing, great public transportation, and endless things to do on the cheap. They'll be fine.
I know, I KNOW... I'm getting all hung up again. I'm just scared that a whole mountain of reality is going to come crashing down on her.
Let it. But probably, it won't come crashing down on her. It will be less comfortable and less romantic than her imagination is telling her, and there will be all kinds of inconveniences and problems. But nothing in this is spelling "disaster" -- it's spelling "learning experience" and "a pretty good way to live your life."
You sound like a really good person, really caring and loving. But you are having a terrible time giving her the freedom to be her own person -- you seem to be finding her choosing a different path challenging. Don't -- let her make her own choices, let her know you are there for support when she needs it, and make plans to fly over and spend a week traveling with her this summer. If things are bad at that point, you can help her deal with it then.
In the meantime, stop trying to control her life. (And, you might want to reflect on why you are finding her taking a different path so difficult for you. Are you having doubts about your own choices maybe? Or is there something else in her situation that is worrying you?)
posted by Forktine at 5:47 AM on April 15, 2009
Every expensive European city I can think of has lots of cheap (if crowded and sometimes dirty) student housing, great public transportation, and endless things to do on the cheap. They'll be fine.
I know, I KNOW... I'm getting all hung up again. I'm just scared that a whole mountain of reality is going to come crashing down on her.
Let it. But probably, it won't come crashing down on her. It will be less comfortable and less romantic than her imagination is telling her, and there will be all kinds of inconveniences and problems. But nothing in this is spelling "disaster" -- it's spelling "learning experience" and "a pretty good way to live your life."
You sound like a really good person, really caring and loving. But you are having a terrible time giving her the freedom to be her own person -- you seem to be finding her choosing a different path challenging. Don't -- let her make her own choices, let her know you are there for support when she needs it, and make plans to fly over and spend a week traveling with her this summer. If things are bad at that point, you can help her deal with it then.
In the meantime, stop trying to control her life. (And, you might want to reflect on why you are finding her taking a different path so difficult for you. Are you having doubts about your own choices maybe? Or is there something else in her situation that is worrying you?)
posted by Forktine at 5:47 AM on April 15, 2009
Here is a clue. Not your problem. And everything you have thought of has probably already been thought of by your friend. But feel free to ask if your advice or concerns are welcomed. But you don't have any say so in their life.
posted by tarvuz at 8:45 AM on April 15, 2009
posted by tarvuz at 8:45 AM on April 15, 2009
This thread is closed to new comments.
"They'd been friends for 4 months when he left to move back to Europe."
"My boyfriend and I started out in nearly identical circumstances as my friend and her fiance."
Wish there was an edit button!
posted by keep it under cover at 5:05 AM on April 14, 2009