Should I be worried about classmate?
March 16, 2009 8:24 AM Subscribe
Should I be worried? Not sure how to handle this.
Should I be worried if someone who is very depressed says things like these (they were in the context of a discussion about gang violence that led to school shootings)...
* He and a friend have analzyed school shootings and other murders to get inside of the killers' minds and to really understand what could lead someone to do such a thing.
* He says that while it is sad that innocent people die in school shootings, the lives of the killers are more important because if it weren't for the killer then the shooting wouldn't have happened.
* He said sometimes he doesn't take his medicine or that it is hard to take the medicine (for depression).
* He says sometimes he feels "psychotic" and that it would be "naive to say that I wouldn't just snap" one day.
* He said sometimes he feels like he wants to just rip somebody's head off (while he said it he made an angry gesture in the air of ripping someone's head off).
* He said that a school shooting could happen in this city (where they aren't used to it). I said that guns aren't allowed here and he said that if someone wants one they can get one. He said that if he wanted a gun he would do anything to get one, go out of his way, even.
* He said that prior to getting therapy before coming abroad, he had been thinking of ways to end his life.
* He said he's not really SURE if he would kill someone.
He is very depressed and has had a very hard life. I worry that he could be a danger to himself or others, and I don't know what to do about this at all. Should I be worried or am I overreacting? If I report it to the school and they do something, he'll definitely know I'm the one who reported it because I'm the only one he's told this stuff to (as far as I know, anyway). Also we're on our own here; our school is having a turbulent year and there's no one here who's really looking after us.
Note: it's not like he brought these things up out of the blue. We were having a conversation about gang violence (because there's been a spate of it in our city recently) and the conversation led from there to this. I'm still worried though. I don't know him that well but he is the same person I had posted another question about, around a month ago (on this site). I took your advice and stopped spending as much time with him. However now I see that he is really depressed and could be a danger to himself or others if he doesn't get help. He's had therapy before and said it was helpful but now we are abroad and away from his therapist. I have a new friend who happens to be a therapist and she is interested in seeing him but when I told him this, he changed the subject. He'd initially expressed interest in seeing her but I'm not sure why he's suddenly doesn't want to discuss it.
I can't tell our other classmates because I don't want to start a rumor mill, and besides it would be just my word against his. This is eating me up inside and I have no idea what to do. Again I could be overreacting but I have never dealt with something like this before and so I'm unsure how to handle it.
* He and a friend have analzyed school shootings and other murders to get inside of the killers' minds and to really understand what could lead someone to do such a thing.
* He says that while it is sad that innocent people die in school shootings, the lives of the killers are more important because if it weren't for the killer then the shooting wouldn't have happened.
* He said sometimes he doesn't take his medicine or that it is hard to take the medicine (for depression).
* He says sometimes he feels "psychotic" and that it would be "naive to say that I wouldn't just snap" one day.
* He said sometimes he feels like he wants to just rip somebody's head off (while he said it he made an angry gesture in the air of ripping someone's head off).
* He said that a school shooting could happen in this city (where they aren't used to it). I said that guns aren't allowed here and he said that if someone wants one they can get one. He said that if he wanted a gun he would do anything to get one, go out of his way, even.
* He said that prior to getting therapy before coming abroad, he had been thinking of ways to end his life.
* He said he's not really SURE if he would kill someone.
He is very depressed and has had a very hard life. I worry that he could be a danger to himself or others, and I don't know what to do about this at all. Should I be worried or am I overreacting? If I report it to the school and they do something, he'll definitely know I'm the one who reported it because I'm the only one he's told this stuff to (as far as I know, anyway). Also we're on our own here; our school is having a turbulent year and there's no one here who's really looking after us.
Note: it's not like he brought these things up out of the blue. We were having a conversation about gang violence (because there's been a spate of it in our city recently) and the conversation led from there to this. I'm still worried though. I don't know him that well but he is the same person I had posted another question about, around a month ago (on this site). I took your advice and stopped spending as much time with him. However now I see that he is really depressed and could be a danger to himself or others if he doesn't get help. He's had therapy before and said it was helpful but now we are abroad and away from his therapist. I have a new friend who happens to be a therapist and she is interested in seeing him but when I told him this, he changed the subject. He'd initially expressed interest in seeing her but I'm not sure why he's suddenly doesn't want to discuss it.
I can't tell our other classmates because I don't want to start a rumor mill, and besides it would be just my word against his. This is eating me up inside and I have no idea what to do. Again I could be overreacting but I have never dealt with something like this before and so I'm unsure how to handle it.
* He and a friend have analzyed school shootings and other murders to get inside of the killers' minds and to really understand what could lead someone to do such a thing.
* He says that while it is sad that innocent people die in school shootings, the lives of the killers are more important because if it weren't for the killer then the shooting wouldn't have happened.
* He said he's not really SURE if he would kill someone.
Oh my god yes you should be worried please talk to your school counselor and principal RIGHT NOW.
posted by zoomorphic at 8:30 AM on March 16, 2009
* He says that while it is sad that innocent people die in school shootings, the lives of the killers are more important because if it weren't for the killer then the shooting wouldn't have happened.
* He said he's not really SURE if he would kill someone.
Oh my god yes you should be worried please talk to your school counselor and principal RIGHT NOW.
posted by zoomorphic at 8:30 AM on March 16, 2009
I have been through a school shooting in a very small town. "It will never happen here" are famous last words.
You're right not to tell your other classmates. They're not the ones who can help you. But you should talk about this with someone in charge who can intervene if necessary. It might be that your friend is simply talking a lot of smack, but it's possible he's telling you the truth--that he might snap someday. The risk is too great to ignore it.
posted by peanut_mcgillicuty at 8:31 AM on March 16, 2009
You're right not to tell your other classmates. They're not the ones who can help you. But you should talk about this with someone in charge who can intervene if necessary. It might be that your friend is simply talking a lot of smack, but it's possible he's telling you the truth--that he might snap someday. The risk is too great to ignore it.
posted by peanut_mcgillicuty at 8:31 AM on March 16, 2009
Response by poster: One more thing...
I am afraid to be alone with him. Tomorrow we have to fix something on his computer and it requires both of our computers and an Ethernet port. It will take a while and the only place we can do it is one of our dorm rooms. I really don't want to be alone with him for all that time. I don't think he'd do anything but it's just uncomfortable because whenever we've been alone in the past, he has said things like the stuff I mentioned above and it makes me a bit scared of him. I REALLY want to help him but I'm too scared to get close to him because of those things he says. I really want him to find happiness and to feel good about himself, but I'm too afraid to get close.
Anyway I don't know of any other place around the city that has Ethernet access. I don't have any other friends who are available to come hang out in the room for that long on such a short notice. I could be paranoid but this is really driving me crazy. I can't just call a classmate out of the blue and ask if I could come to their place for a few hours because we aren't that close, this is very short notice and none of them know about this situation. So I'm stuck. I've already said I'd help him and I can't let him down like so many others have in life.
posted by starpoint at 8:31 AM on March 16, 2009
I am afraid to be alone with him. Tomorrow we have to fix something on his computer and it requires both of our computers and an Ethernet port. It will take a while and the only place we can do it is one of our dorm rooms. I really don't want to be alone with him for all that time. I don't think he'd do anything but it's just uncomfortable because whenever we've been alone in the past, he has said things like the stuff I mentioned above and it makes me a bit scared of him. I REALLY want to help him but I'm too scared to get close to him because of those things he says. I really want him to find happiness and to feel good about himself, but I'm too afraid to get close.
Anyway I don't know of any other place around the city that has Ethernet access. I don't have any other friends who are available to come hang out in the room for that long on such a short notice. I could be paranoid but this is really driving me crazy. I can't just call a classmate out of the blue and ask if I could come to their place for a few hours because we aren't that close, this is very short notice and none of them know about this situation. So I'm stuck. I've already said I'd help him and I can't let him down like so many others have in life.
posted by starpoint at 8:31 AM on March 16, 2009
You absolutely must mention this to someone in the school administration, and you'll feel better when you do. The behavior you describe includes clear homicidal and suicidal tendencies and, while it sucks that you're in this boat, you have a moral obligation to take action--now. Frankly, any backlash or hurt feelings due to you dropping a dime on him are irrelevant--think how you'd feel if something did happen and in retrospect you took no action. Good luck handling this tough situation, but you'll be a better person for it in a variety of ways.
posted by eggman at 8:34 AM on March 16, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by eggman at 8:34 AM on March 16, 2009 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Sorry, more clarification here. Yes we are studying abroad. We come from the same home school, but only just met this semester abroad. He has told me that he doesn't handle stress well, and that he's had many hard times in his early life, his family didn't care for him in the way that a family should. He had been on therapy before coming abroad and said it was helpful, plus he's on medication for depression.
He's very critical, angry and resentful. I have tried my best to be nice to him and to help him and give him things he needs, and he is still critical of people and constantly puts them on the defensive, even if he doesn't mean to or isn't intending to. I had called him out on that and he told me he was working on being less critical and I can tell he is trying to make an effort, at least with me. I want to help him even more but the problem is that I'm too scared to get close to him. It's like trying to help a stray cat or dog that is hissing and spitting and could bite if you get too close.
For about 2 weeks or so I stopped spending as much time with him and I immediately began to feel much better and my mood lightened. However he is not getting any better. He stopped coming to class for a week and finally I talked to him this weekend.
Well to make a long story short, I end up in his room. He said that he'd been walking around the city late at night and going to bed early in the morning, thus unable to go to class on time. I told him to be careful walking around the city at night in light of the recent shootings (gang-related) and he said the only person who can take his life is himself. From there, we were talking about gangsters and what leads gang members to kill. That led to a conversation about murders and killings in general. That's when he said those things I mentioned above. So it wasn't like he brought it up out of the blue, but still. He writes poetry and there is nothing violent there. The poems (which I think are quite good) are mostly about pain and depression but nothing about killing. But then again I've only seen the poems he's shared with me. That's why I think I might be overreacting. But I am worried all the same.
posted by starpoint at 8:41 AM on March 16, 2009
He's very critical, angry and resentful. I have tried my best to be nice to him and to help him and give him things he needs, and he is still critical of people and constantly puts them on the defensive, even if he doesn't mean to or isn't intending to. I had called him out on that and he told me he was working on being less critical and I can tell he is trying to make an effort, at least with me. I want to help him even more but the problem is that I'm too scared to get close to him. It's like trying to help a stray cat or dog that is hissing and spitting and could bite if you get too close.
For about 2 weeks or so I stopped spending as much time with him and I immediately began to feel much better and my mood lightened. However he is not getting any better. He stopped coming to class for a week and finally I talked to him this weekend.
Well to make a long story short, I end up in his room. He said that he'd been walking around the city late at night and going to bed early in the morning, thus unable to go to class on time. I told him to be careful walking around the city at night in light of the recent shootings (gang-related) and he said the only person who can take his life is himself. From there, we were talking about gangsters and what leads gang members to kill. That led to a conversation about murders and killings in general. That's when he said those things I mentioned above. So it wasn't like he brought it up out of the blue, but still. He writes poetry and there is nothing violent there. The poems (which I think are quite good) are mostly about pain and depression but nothing about killing. But then again I've only seen the poems he's shared with me. That's why I think I might be overreacting. But I am worried all the same.
posted by starpoint at 8:41 AM on March 16, 2009
Honestly, I'm pretty sure most of these things could have been said about me as a teenager; and I know I publicly discussed (with similarly disaffected friends), how we would pull off a school shooting, in detail, and for my first open-topic English assignment as a freshman I wrote a standard "teenager in trenchcoat blows up his school" power fantasy.
...In retrospect I'm extremely fortunate that this was all (just barely) pre-Columbine.
I was never a real danger to anyone, just utterly miserable, experiencing the initial onset of a serious emotional disorder, and unable to handle my emotions. ...I probably needed to get laid pretty desperately, too.
Speaking from that vantage, the only one of these that scares me is your second point, because that represents a devaluation of 'innocent' human life very similar to a genuine sociopath's.
If I were you, I'd talk to him about this again after a couple weeks so it doesn't seem you're harping on the topic, suspicious of him, or encouraging him - or earlier if he brings it up himself. Try and sound out why he feels this way; it doesn't sound like you have enough information to make a no-shit, for-real assessment of whether he's likely to actually doing something terrible rather than engaging in adolescent power fantasy.
posted by Ryvar at 8:41 AM on March 16, 2009 [2 favorites]
...In retrospect I'm extremely fortunate that this was all (just barely) pre-Columbine.
I was never a real danger to anyone, just utterly miserable, experiencing the initial onset of a serious emotional disorder, and unable to handle my emotions. ...I probably needed to get laid pretty desperately, too.
Speaking from that vantage, the only one of these that scares me is your second point, because that represents a devaluation of 'innocent' human life very similar to a genuine sociopath's.
If I were you, I'd talk to him about this again after a couple weeks so it doesn't seem you're harping on the topic, suspicious of him, or encouraging him - or earlier if he brings it up himself. Try and sound out why he feels this way; it doesn't sound like you have enough information to make a no-shit, for-real assessment of whether he's likely to actually doing something terrible rather than engaging in adolescent power fantasy.
posted by Ryvar at 8:41 AM on March 16, 2009 [2 favorites]
Is this the person from your previous question?
posted by davidstandaford at 8:45 AM on March 16, 2009
posted by davidstandaford at 8:45 AM on March 16, 2009
Response by poster: Yeah and we are not even adolescents, we're both in our mid- to late-twenties. And about the second point, I think he meant it more as saying that we're not going to prevent school shootings unless we step in to help and understand the shooters. It's just his wording that makes it sound so scary.
posted by starpoint at 8:46 AM on March 16, 2009
posted by starpoint at 8:46 AM on March 16, 2009
Best answer: Some context.
Binghamton University: School Violence Prevention - Watching for the Warning Signs
Indiana University: Using Early Warning Signs
Many more similar articles out there if you Google.
You may fear that you are over-reacting, and some people may suggest to you that you are. But here's the thing. Not all of the warning signs you list definitely mean that the person exhibiting them will go on to do damage. But almost all the incidents in which someone has done serious damage were foreshadowed by these warning signs. And those signs gave people opportunities to step in and help events turn out differently, though those opportunites were not taken or not taken enough. I would recommend that you see this as an opportunity and take the steps. Find a trusted adult in the school leadership and get their attention. Make sure they grasp the enormity of the problem. It's a burden on you to be the only one who knows this - an inappropriate burden which your acquaintance has placed upon you - but you are the only one, apparently, in a position to hear the calls for help. I think you really must act.
posted by Miko at 8:48 AM on March 16, 2009
Binghamton University: School Violence Prevention - Watching for the Warning Signs
Indiana University: Using Early Warning Signs
Many more similar articles out there if you Google.
You may fear that you are over-reacting, and some people may suggest to you that you are. But here's the thing. Not all of the warning signs you list definitely mean that the person exhibiting them will go on to do damage. But almost all the incidents in which someone has done serious damage were foreshadowed by these warning signs. And those signs gave people opportunities to step in and help events turn out differently, though those opportunites were not taken or not taken enough. I would recommend that you see this as an opportunity and take the steps. Find a trusted adult in the school leadership and get their attention. Make sure they grasp the enormity of the problem. It's a burden on you to be the only one who knows this - an inappropriate burden which your acquaintance has placed upon you - but you are the only one, apparently, in a position to hear the calls for help. I think you really must act.
posted by Miko at 8:48 AM on March 16, 2009
Yeah, from your earlier question, he's certainly got the 'bullying' characteristic down.
So you're older than I thought, which is helpful information. Since he's not a minor I'm not sure how much the school can legally intervene, but I still think you should tell someone responsible for students in the program about the conversations and see what their options are. It will be a relief not to be the only one who knows it.
I don't see why you couldn't respond directly to him, too - if you're fixing the computer and he says something threatening-sounding, can you just say "You know, I'm worried about you. That's a pretty depressed thing to say. Have you talked to anybody besides me about this? Do you know where you can get some help?"
posted by Miko at 8:53 AM on March 16, 2009
So you're older than I thought, which is helpful information. Since he's not a minor I'm not sure how much the school can legally intervene, but I still think you should tell someone responsible for students in the program about the conversations and see what their options are. It will be a relief not to be the only one who knows it.
I don't see why you couldn't respond directly to him, too - if you're fixing the computer and he says something threatening-sounding, can you just say "You know, I'm worried about you. That's a pretty depressed thing to say. Have you talked to anybody besides me about this? Do you know where you can get some help?"
posted by Miko at 8:53 AM on March 16, 2009
Best answer: Sure, you can talk yourself into justifying what he said by context, but you're still terrified of him. Which is completely appropriate considering what you've written. I do think that you need to report it, and here's how:
Take the text of your question, put it in an email, and immediately send it to: 1) the person in charge of your study abroad program, 2) the person in charge of your residence housing (not a fellow student -- a dean of residence, or some such), 3) the head of counseling services at your study abroad university and your home university, 4) the dean of students at your home university, and 5) his advisor(s) at both universities. Make sure each of these individuals can see that the others are cc'd, so that they have one another's contact information immediately available. That list of people would be the minimal notification requirement to me, and as someone posted above, I believe you have a moral obligation to do so. These folks are in a position to be able to help him.
posted by amelioration at 8:54 AM on March 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
Take the text of your question, put it in an email, and immediately send it to: 1) the person in charge of your study abroad program, 2) the person in charge of your residence housing (not a fellow student -- a dean of residence, or some such), 3) the head of counseling services at your study abroad university and your home university, 4) the dean of students at your home university, and 5) his advisor(s) at both universities. Make sure each of these individuals can see that the others are cc'd, so that they have one another's contact information immediately available. That list of people would be the minimal notification requirement to me, and as someone posted above, I believe you have a moral obligation to do so. These folks are in a position to be able to help him.
posted by amelioration at 8:54 AM on March 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
Do what amelioration says, and in the mean time, do not spend time with him at all.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:03 AM on March 16, 2009
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:03 AM on March 16, 2009
Response by poster: @amelioration: I'd like to do that, but wouldn't he find out and possibly retaliate in some way against me? Since I am the only one he's told about this stuff, he'll immediately know it's me.
posted by starpoint at 9:05 AM on March 16, 2009
posted by starpoint at 9:05 AM on March 16, 2009
For the love of god, TELL SOMEONE IN AUTHORITY. He sounds about thisclose away from shooting people, he's got all the red flags, your danger sense is going off and you're afraid of him....
You and many future dead people will be sorry if you don't tell on this guy. Period. Please do it. I realize it may be harder to do in your 20's in another country, but won't you regret it if you don't say something and he kills someone? Or you?
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:11 AM on March 16, 2009
You and many future dead people will be sorry if you don't tell on this guy. Period. Please do it. I realize it may be harder to do in your 20's in another country, but won't you regret it if you don't say something and he kills someone? Or you?
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:11 AM on March 16, 2009
He might kill you anyway even if you don't tell. I am not kidding about this. He sounds like a ticking time bomb.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:12 AM on March 16, 2009
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:12 AM on March 16, 2009
If he's in his mid/late-twenties and still engaging in this sort of power fantasy, that's very different from someone in their mid-teens telling you this.
In light of that fact let me amend my above advice: talk to someone you trust.
As far as retaliation goes - that's not what would worry me so much as the fact that he's trusting you with feelings he doesn't feel he can talk to other people about, and that sort of very public disclosure and betrayal of his confidence could really do massive longterm damage to his (apparently severely lagging) personal development.
You need to tell someone, but I don't think you need to broadcast it to the world just yet.
posted by Ryvar at 9:15 AM on March 16, 2009
In light of that fact let me amend my above advice: talk to someone you trust.
As far as retaliation goes - that's not what would worry me so much as the fact that he's trusting you with feelings he doesn't feel he can talk to other people about, and that sort of very public disclosure and betrayal of his confidence could really do massive longterm damage to his (apparently severely lagging) personal development.
You need to tell someone, but I don't think you need to broadcast it to the world just yet.
posted by Ryvar at 9:15 AM on March 16, 2009
starpoint, that email route does sound like a good approach. I understand your fears. Please be sure to mention that (a) you think you are the only one who knows this and (b) you are also concerned for your safety if there is retailation. Ask that your communication be treated as confidential.
In addition, I think it may be a good idea to request a meeting with your own dean of students or advisor - whoever is onsite at the program - and ask them what you should be doing to protect yourself.
posted by Miko at 9:17 AM on March 16, 2009
In addition, I think it may be a good idea to request a meeting with your own dean of students or advisor - whoever is onsite at the program - and ask them what you should be doing to protect yourself.
posted by Miko at 9:17 AM on March 16, 2009
that he's trusting you with feelings he doesn't feel he can talk to other people about
Another way of looking at this is that he's trusting the OP, in a perverse way, to take some action and thus prevent him from doing things he himself is afraid of. That's what people mean when they talk about these behaviors as 'cry for help' - the person has become utterly unable to help themselves, and is attempting to bully/threaten/scare someone else into kickstarting the help mechanisms without having to take responsibility for helping themselves.
posted by Miko at 9:19 AM on March 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
Another way of looking at this is that he's trusting the OP, in a perverse way, to take some action and thus prevent him from doing things he himself is afraid of. That's what people mean when they talk about these behaviors as 'cry for help' - the person has become utterly unable to help themselves, and is attempting to bully/threaten/scare someone else into kickstarting the help mechanisms without having to take responsibility for helping themselves.
posted by Miko at 9:19 AM on March 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
It's like trying to help a stray cat or dog that is hissing and spitting and could bite if you get too close.
And if this was a stray cat or dog, the responsible thing to do would be to call animal control. A vicious, snarling animal is a risk not only to you but to the public. Same thing with a vicious, snarling person, so to speak.
Please go to the authorities. Is there a "house" mother or father in your study abroad dorm? An RA or someone else in charge that you could talk to? This is what they're there for. Worst case scenario is that you, and the other people around you, are in danger. That might not be likely, but it's possible--just like how it's possible that that snarling animal could be rabid. It's a risk you really, really shouldn't take.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:21 AM on March 16, 2009
And if this was a stray cat or dog, the responsible thing to do would be to call animal control. A vicious, snarling animal is a risk not only to you but to the public. Same thing with a vicious, snarling person, so to speak.
Please go to the authorities. Is there a "house" mother or father in your study abroad dorm? An RA or someone else in charge that you could talk to? This is what they're there for. Worst case scenario is that you, and the other people around you, are in danger. That might not be likely, but it's possible--just like how it's possible that that snarling animal could be rabid. It's a risk you really, really shouldn't take.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:21 AM on March 16, 2009
Response by poster: @PhoBWanKenobi: no, there is really no one at the dorm who can help us. The dorm is a self-run facility and the little administration there is has very limited hours. We're on our own here.
posted by starpoint at 9:24 AM on March 16, 2009
posted by starpoint at 9:24 AM on March 16, 2009
We're on our own here.
No. Someone has responsibility. Figure out who it is. Start with amelioration's list. Think about who the journalists would call if something happened, who would have to explain. That's who you need to talk to.
posted by Miko at 9:35 AM on March 16, 2009
No. Someone has responsibility. Figure out who it is. Start with amelioration's list. Think about who the journalists would call if something happened, who would have to explain. That's who you need to talk to.
posted by Miko at 9:35 AM on March 16, 2009
The dorm is a self-run facility and the little administration there is has very limited hours.
Then go visit them during those hours.
Seriously, you need to talk to someone else about this. Based on what you said about his poetry, if not a risk to others, he may be a risk to himself. You're in over your head and you need help.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:45 AM on March 16, 2009
Then go visit them during those hours.
Seriously, you need to talk to someone else about this. Based on what you said about his poetry, if not a risk to others, he may be a risk to himself. You're in over your head and you need help.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:45 AM on March 16, 2009
I doubt he would be able to get a firearm in a foreign city.
He sounds lonely, frusterated and prone to morbid fantasy. Not like a dangerous person. Dangerous people usually don't have obvious warning signs.
Is he physically violent?
posted by HFSH at 10:42 AM on March 16, 2009
He sounds lonely, frusterated and prone to morbid fantasy. Not like a dangerous person. Dangerous people usually don't have obvious warning signs.
Is he physically violent?
posted by HFSH at 10:42 AM on March 16, 2009
There is a comprehensive Secret Service study (PDF) about high school shooters that may be of some help to you.
For what it's worth, the nature of the shootings should make it very unlikely that a high school shooter would be violent in a one-on-one setting. They want to create a big, Greek tragedy, not a whodunit, if you want. But of course: if you feel threatened by this person, you are under no obligation to socialize with him. It's fine to ignore them, or even avoid them.
posted by NekulturnY at 10:44 AM on March 16, 2009
For what it's worth, the nature of the shootings should make it very unlikely that a high school shooter would be violent in a one-on-one setting. They want to create a big, Greek tragedy, not a whodunit, if you want. But of course: if you feel threatened by this person, you are under no obligation to socialize with him. It's fine to ignore them, or even avoid them.
posted by NekulturnY at 10:44 AM on March 16, 2009
Best answer: Reading the first post I'd have said no, theres nothing to be particularly worried about (at least in the context of him obtaining and gun and going on a killing spree). A lot of teens talk like that and an infinitesimally small number actually cause harm to anyone (other than themselves) ...but in the context of a guy in his mid-twenties, thats quite alarming.
He'd initially expressed interest in seeing her but I'm not sure why he's suddenly doesn't want to discuss it.
Depression isn't a constant, on a good day he knows he has a problem and knows he needs help but on a bad day he wont be able to talk about it or admit his problems, he's wallowing in his dark thoughts and sharing them with you because he wants to shock you, he wants attention and he wants help. If you're scared of him then maybe you can't force him to see the therapist but could you get her to go see him?
I very much doubt that he'd manage to obtain a gun, let alone use it to go on a killing spree but he's clearly struggling very much with his depression. All that talk is a cry for help, if you can catch it now and get him the help he needs you can hopefully stop him hurting himself or other people, if his cry for help goes unheard, theres a good chance he'll escalate.
posted by missmagenta at 10:46 AM on March 16, 2009
He'd initially expressed interest in seeing her but I'm not sure why he's suddenly doesn't want to discuss it.
Depression isn't a constant, on a good day he knows he has a problem and knows he needs help but on a bad day he wont be able to talk about it or admit his problems, he's wallowing in his dark thoughts and sharing them with you because he wants to shock you, he wants attention and he wants help. If you're scared of him then maybe you can't force him to see the therapist but could you get her to go see him?
I very much doubt that he'd manage to obtain a gun, let alone use it to go on a killing spree but he's clearly struggling very much with his depression. All that talk is a cry for help, if you can catch it now and get him the help he needs you can hopefully stop him hurting himself or other people, if his cry for help goes unheard, theres a good chance he'll escalate.
posted by missmagenta at 10:46 AM on March 16, 2009
Another thing: in the study, you will find that a lot of high school shooters speak to their classmates about their plans. There is even an instance where the kids in a high school positioned themselves on the balcony of the library to see "if the killer would indeed kill everyone on his list". This means:
- that their fantasies must have been pretty detailed
- that they shared those fantasies - in detail - with their peers
It also means - and here we're all looking at you - that none of the kids who 1. knew about the fantasy and 2. knew how detailed they were ever talked to a responsible adult.
Although the fantasies your friend speaks of seem pretty vague, I think you should alert someone. This is too much responsibility for you to carry alone.
posted by NekulturnY at 10:48 AM on March 16, 2009
- that their fantasies must have been pretty detailed
- that they shared those fantasies - in detail - with their peers
It also means - and here we're all looking at you - that none of the kids who 1. knew about the fantasy and 2. knew how detailed they were ever talked to a responsible adult.
Although the fantasies your friend speaks of seem pretty vague, I think you should alert someone. This is too much responsibility for you to carry alone.
posted by NekulturnY at 10:48 AM on March 16, 2009
One thing you shouldn't do is rely on the judgment of anyone in this thread on how much of a threat this guy is (which range from "not like a dangerous person" to "ticking time bomb"). You are the only person who's been in contact with him, and you clearly feel there is a problem.
And yet you bat away every solution that's been offered with some variation on "but that's going to be hard to do!". It's like one of those relationship questions where the obvious answer to the problem is "tell your partner what you've told us ", but the OP wants to know "How do I fix this (p.s. I don't want to talk to my partner about it)".
Follow the good advice that's been given here. It will be difficult/awkward/draining to do so, but so what? Sometimes, unfortunately, there is no *easy* solution.
posted by the bricabrac man at 11:00 AM on March 16, 2009 [3 favorites]
And yet you bat away every solution that's been offered with some variation on "but that's going to be hard to do!". It's like one of those relationship questions where the obvious answer to the problem is "tell your partner what you've told us ", but the OP wants to know "How do I fix this (p.s. I don't want to talk to my partner about it)".
Follow the good advice that's been given here. It will be difficult/awkward/draining to do so, but so what? Sometimes, unfortunately, there is no *easy* solution.
posted by the bricabrac man at 11:00 AM on March 16, 2009 [3 favorites]
Those who are replying without reading the whole thread should note that both the OP and person in question are in their 20s.
posted by Miko at 11:06 AM on March 16, 2009
posted by Miko at 11:06 AM on March 16, 2009
Response by poster: Yeah I guess the email solution would be a good idea and I am considering it. But he's called me on the phone just now and vented out some of his frustrations. I just tried to listen and not be judgmental. I don't know how much that helps, if it does at all. I'm not sure if I should just keep talking to him on the phone like that or still contact the administrators just in case. He's in his late 20s btw.
posted by starpoint at 11:20 AM on March 16, 2009
posted by starpoint at 11:20 AM on March 16, 2009
Response by poster: Also I told a very good friend of mine whom I trust back in the states about him (via chat) and she's offered to talk to him via email and try to relate to him since she can relate to what he's going through. I just think he needs someone to talk to and to listen to him. I just can't spend all of my time here doing that and I still am afraid. that is why i don't want to go about this alone.
posted by starpoint at 11:23 AM on March 16, 2009
posted by starpoint at 11:23 AM on March 16, 2009
Best answer: she's offered to talk to him via email and try to relate to him since she can relate to what he's going through
I think that's inappropriate. Your friend needs professional help. You're muddling around here, getting more intimate with him in the process, complicating your relationship and drawing more people into contact with him. I don't think this is a good idea at all. You are not required to save this person. The best thing you can do is activate a professional support system and then get out of the way. You are really inserting yourself into a drama that you cannot control - why on earth would you want to do this?
Do you have enough friends and social outlets of your own? A support system there or back home? I worry that you are becoming very drawn in to this guy's dark world. That's not especially healthy either. If you want to help 'rescue' him, use independent people who know what they're doing.
posted by Miko at 11:26 AM on March 16, 2009 [3 favorites]
I think that's inappropriate. Your friend needs professional help. You're muddling around here, getting more intimate with him in the process, complicating your relationship and drawing more people into contact with him. I don't think this is a good idea at all. You are not required to save this person. The best thing you can do is activate a professional support system and then get out of the way. You are really inserting yourself into a drama that you cannot control - why on earth would you want to do this?
Do you have enough friends and social outlets of your own? A support system there or back home? I worry that you are becoming very drawn in to this guy's dark world. That's not especially healthy either. If you want to help 'rescue' him, use independent people who know what they're doing.
posted by Miko at 11:26 AM on March 16, 2009 [3 favorites]
And yet you bat away every solution that's been offered with some variation on "but that's going to be hard to do!".
I second this. What are you looking to get out of this askme?
posted by Justinian at 11:26 AM on March 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
I second this. What are you looking to get out of this askme?
posted by Justinian at 11:26 AM on March 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
If you're not willing to get a professional, official response going, then I suggest that your alternative should be to simply cut off contact with this guy and back out of his life entirely. The middle line you're trying to walk strikes me as more messed up and dangerous than any other course of action. The guy's terribly toxic; don't you want to stay out of this as much as possible? That would be the sanest path. If you choose not to work through the proper channels, then please do nothing. Don't start pulling random friends and contacts into this.
posted by Miko at 11:47 AM on March 16, 2009 [3 favorites]
posted by Miko at 11:47 AM on March 16, 2009 [3 favorites]
Best answer: starpoint: you're in a tough position and I feel bad for you.
I'm someone who at one point tested positive for all the 'warning signs' of school shooters (viewed from an external perspective), so I tend to take a "kids will be angsty trenchcoat-wearing, self-mutiliating kids" approach to this stuff.
Even with that admitted bias, when those signs are demonstrated by someone in their late 20s it is absolutely an entirely different realm. His ability to actualize his threats is greatly increased, his emotional development is very clearly severely retarded, and he no longer has the excuse of teenage hormones coupled with excessive virginity causing directionless angst that he's channeling negatively.
You don't need to alert everyone and the national media, but you need to tell *someone* about this.
posted by Ryvar at 11:53 AM on March 16, 2009
I'm someone who at one point tested positive for all the 'warning signs' of school shooters (viewed from an external perspective), so I tend to take a "kids will be angsty trenchcoat-wearing, self-mutiliating kids" approach to this stuff.
Even with that admitted bias, when those signs are demonstrated by someone in their late 20s it is absolutely an entirely different realm. His ability to actualize his threats is greatly increased, his emotional development is very clearly severely retarded, and he no longer has the excuse of teenage hormones coupled with excessive virginity causing directionless angst that he's channeling negatively.
You don't need to alert everyone and the national media, but you need to tell *someone* about this.
posted by Ryvar at 11:53 AM on March 16, 2009
Best answer: Just back to say that I think Miko is right, that you need to either take official action or cut him off entirely. Don't entangle him with more people you care about, for example by putting him in touch with your friend.
The thing you keep brushing off here is that this guy SCARES you. It's frightening to do so, but you really need to trust your gut. He weirds you out. You're afraid to be alone with him. You're afraid he'll retaliate. These are signs that you need help. He might just be talking, but you're afraid, and that means you're already in a bad position and, again, that you need help dealing with this guy.
There are a variety of professionals available to help you. Yes, it's going to be hard. Yes, it's tempting to try to just keep an eye on him and not ruffle anyone's feathers. But you know what? That puts you in danger... not necessarily physical danger, but certainly emotional danger. The longer you spend interacting with this, the more likely it'll start to seem normal, and easier to justify ("well, he's been saying things like this for soooo long, and it's not like he's done anything yet..."). That way lies drama and pain.
posted by amelioration at 12:27 PM on March 16, 2009
The thing you keep brushing off here is that this guy SCARES you. It's frightening to do so, but you really need to trust your gut. He weirds you out. You're afraid to be alone with him. You're afraid he'll retaliate. These are signs that you need help. He might just be talking, but you're afraid, and that means you're already in a bad position and, again, that you need help dealing with this guy.
There are a variety of professionals available to help you. Yes, it's going to be hard. Yes, it's tempting to try to just keep an eye on him and not ruffle anyone's feathers. But you know what? That puts you in danger... not necessarily physical danger, but certainly emotional danger. The longer you spend interacting with this, the more likely it'll start to seem normal, and easier to justify ("well, he's been saying things like this for soooo long, and it's not like he's done anything yet..."). That way lies drama and pain.
posted by amelioration at 12:27 PM on March 16, 2009
Best answer: The US embassy in denmark has a list of medical professionals including psychiatrists and counsellors - why don't you go and see a therapist yourself? Then you can talk to someone in person, they will be better able to judge what you're saying, and will know what you can do to get your friend help where you are.
Having studied in Europe myself, I understand that the universities there do not have the same kind of 'student assistance' areas as American colleges, so I wouldn't necessarily treat it as a school issue.
posted by jacalata at 12:48 PM on March 16, 2009
Having studied in Europe myself, I understand that the universities there do not have the same kind of 'student assistance' areas as American colleges, so I wouldn't necessarily treat it as a school issue.
posted by jacalata at 12:48 PM on March 16, 2009
Best answer: You keep talking about wanting to help him and to fix him. You can't. Repeat: you can't help this guy. I realise you want him to be happy but you don't have the skills or the training or the position to do so. You said it yourself, this is beyond you and you don't know how to handle it any more. Which is fine, I'm ten years older than you with experience of depression and mental illness (mine and others) and I wouldn't know what to do either. I understand your reluctance to betray the guy and I think you're a good person. But even if you treat him in the best way possible it won't help, he's beyond being fixed by friendship
So you need to talk to someone who can help, or at least who is the next step to getting to that help. There's lots of good advice in this thread already about how to do so and people you could involve (note: professionals with authority not your friends) and about what to tell them (definitely inlude your concerns about retaliation). What I'm saying is give up on the idea that you can handle this and give him what he needs. Please escalate this to someone who can.
posted by shelleycat at 2:01 PM on March 16, 2009
So you need to talk to someone who can help, or at least who is the next step to getting to that help. There's lots of good advice in this thread already about how to do so and people you could involve (note: professionals with authority not your friends) and about what to tell them (definitely inlude your concerns about retaliation). What I'm saying is give up on the idea that you can handle this and give him what he needs. Please escalate this to someone who can.
posted by shelleycat at 2:01 PM on March 16, 2009
Response by poster: The guy's terribly toxic; don't you want to stay out of this as much as possible? That would be the sanest path.
Yes, i do want to get out of this. I had greatly cut contact with him and only saw him in class for over 3 weeks, but the problem is that I already foolishly told him over the weekend to let me know if I could help with anything (he'd stopped going to class for a week) and I've already talked to him over the phone today and let him vent. So now if I pull back after offering to help, it'll just look like I've betrayed him. I deeply regret answering his phone call over the weekend (the first time I'd talked to him in a long time). From now on I won't pick up the phone when he calls.
Thanks for the link to the US Embassy psychologists, I hadn't considered that. I will check them out.
As for what I was hoping to get out of this question: I just wasn't sure if I was overreacting about the things he said, that's all. I needed to tell someone, I've been keeping this bottled up for so long and it's killing me. But now I see that I've got to take a risk and tell a professional, even if he could find out and retalliate. I will tell them I need some kind of way to protect myself should he find out I spilled the beans. Because he's trusted me enough to open up to me...so it'd be like betraying his trust if I tell. But I'm beginning to see that telling a professional is the only way to go about it, even if it's just for the sake of my own sanity.
posted by starpoint at 2:14 PM on March 16, 2009 [2 favorites]
Yes, i do want to get out of this. I had greatly cut contact with him and only saw him in class for over 3 weeks, but the problem is that I already foolishly told him over the weekend to let me know if I could help with anything (he'd stopped going to class for a week) and I've already talked to him over the phone today and let him vent. So now if I pull back after offering to help, it'll just look like I've betrayed him. I deeply regret answering his phone call over the weekend (the first time I'd talked to him in a long time). From now on I won't pick up the phone when he calls.
Thanks for the link to the US Embassy psychologists, I hadn't considered that. I will check them out.
As for what I was hoping to get out of this question: I just wasn't sure if I was overreacting about the things he said, that's all. I needed to tell someone, I've been keeping this bottled up for so long and it's killing me. But now I see that I've got to take a risk and tell a professional, even if he could find out and retalliate. I will tell them I need some kind of way to protect myself should he find out I spilled the beans. Because he's trusted me enough to open up to me...so it'd be like betraying his trust if I tell. But I'm beginning to see that telling a professional is the only way to go about it, even if it's just for the sake of my own sanity.
posted by starpoint at 2:14 PM on March 16, 2009 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I feel like there are some conflicting answers to this question specifically because of the novelty of the school shooting phenomenon. It's rare and not well understood or studied in the long term and there's little or no infrastructure for the problem. So let's subtract that for a second.
What we do know is that your friend is clearly depressed, suffering suicidal ideation and has the beginnings of a plan in mind. He is a suicide risk and suicide is common worldwide, so there is lots of solid information and resources specifically for people like you--people who are friends and acquaintances.
Suicide.org lists a suicide hotline for Denmark: http://www.suicide.org/hotlines/international/denmark-suicide-hotlines.html
Maybe you should call it first and ask for advice, then follow the professional advice.
Here is an article about how to help a suicidal friend: http://depression.about.com/cs/suicideprevent/a/suicidal.htm
You are too close and emotionally involved to do this alone. Even in the best case scenario where your friend doesn't do anything, it will still be incredibly draining and unfair to you and that drain is why you're hesitant for about all of the advice that is given to you. The fair and kind thing to do for yourself and for your friend is to hand this off to an experienced, unbiased mental health professional.
posted by Skwirl at 3:01 PM on March 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
What we do know is that your friend is clearly depressed, suffering suicidal ideation and has the beginnings of a plan in mind. He is a suicide risk and suicide is common worldwide, so there is lots of solid information and resources specifically for people like you--people who are friends and acquaintances.
Suicide.org lists a suicide hotline for Denmark: http://www.suicide.org/hotlines/international/denmark-suicide-hotlines.html
Maybe you should call it first and ask for advice, then follow the professional advice.
Here is an article about how to help a suicidal friend: http://depression.about.com/cs/suicideprevent/a/suicidal.htm
You are too close and emotionally involved to do this alone. Even in the best case scenario where your friend doesn't do anything, it will still be incredibly draining and unfair to you and that drain is why you're hesitant for about all of the advice that is given to you. The fair and kind thing to do for yourself and for your friend is to hand this off to an experienced, unbiased mental health professional.
posted by Skwirl at 3:01 PM on March 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
It occurred to me that since your friend is missing classes, it could be just as likely (from his point of view) that a professor reported him as troubled rather than you.
posted by Miko at 6:22 PM on March 16, 2009
posted by Miko at 6:22 PM on March 16, 2009
Response by poster: @Miko: it could be. But he told me he didn't feel like going to class or doing much of anything because he'd cussed someone out in the city, some worker at an information desk. But there also could have been other reasons. I've read all of your answers and suggestions again this morning and I've decided that I am definitely going to report this, both to the student counselor and also via email to all of people in positions of authority. I'm also going to stop spending time with him and remain helpful to him but only at a distance.
Thanks for all of the advice given, it has really been helpful and I feel better knowing that there are options.
posted by starpoint at 5:04 AM on March 17, 2009
Thanks for all of the advice given, it has really been helpful and I feel better knowing that there are options.
posted by starpoint at 5:04 AM on March 17, 2009
I think the approach you've chosen is the safest for everyone, including all of the people who could potentially be impacted by this person's actions. You should feel good about what you are doing. Too many people, in the aftermath of a school shooting, report that something was amiss but they didn't report it. Regardless of what happens, you will not be one of those people. Best of luck.
posted by Simon Barclay at 10:14 AM on March 17, 2009
posted by Simon Barclay at 10:14 AM on March 17, 2009
This thread is closed to new comments.
Yes, I think you should be worried.
What's confusing is that it's awfully hard to understand what's going on. Where are you and what is your relationship to this person? It sounds like you're a classmate, but why are you abroad together? What are your resources? Who is this friend who's a therapist? It's a bit awkward connecting to a therapist through a social relationship.
It does sound as though he could pose a danger to himself or others, and if you could be a little clearer, it would help people identify some of your options. Your friend really isn't doing well and he has suicidal ideation and some degree of obsession with violent events and actors. It's not good.
posted by Miko at 8:30 AM on March 16, 2009