Can I get into a grad program in Canada?
February 25, 2009 12:50 PM Subscribe
How likely is it that I'm going to get into a grad program in Canada?
I've been in university for 8 years now; some of it part-time, dropped out twice and was put on AP once (dropped out mid semester, getting two F's). Other than the two fails, I have 7 discontinued courses on my resume too (courses I dropped out a little too late to be stricken from the record).
My GPA otherwise is in the 3.8 range. I recently returned to school with 7 credits left and my GPA for those credits will likely be around the 3.8 range as well. The F's and the discontinued were as a result of some indecision and youthful mistakes when it came to my education.
At the end of this, I'll have a degree in economics with minors in philosophy and political studies. I'll have a 4.0 in my major marks but my last two years are incredibly disjointed and includes two F's. The last 7 courses will indicate, I guess, that I'm able to do the work at the university level but I realize that my record has red flags all over it.
What is the likelihood that I'm going to get into a grad program (economics or philosophy) in Canada with such an up/down track record? Is there anything I can do to prove my worth? Should I work awhile before I apply?
I've been in university for 8 years now; some of it part-time, dropped out twice and was put on AP once (dropped out mid semester, getting two F's). Other than the two fails, I have 7 discontinued courses on my resume too (courses I dropped out a little too late to be stricken from the record).
My GPA otherwise is in the 3.8 range. I recently returned to school with 7 credits left and my GPA for those credits will likely be around the 3.8 range as well. The F's and the discontinued were as a result of some indecision and youthful mistakes when it came to my education.
At the end of this, I'll have a degree in economics with minors in philosophy and political studies. I'll have a 4.0 in my major marks but my last two years are incredibly disjointed and includes two F's. The last 7 courses will indicate, I guess, that I'm able to do the work at the university level but I realize that my record has red flags all over it.
What is the likelihood that I'm going to get into a grad program (economics or philosophy) in Canada with such an up/down track record? Is there anything I can do to prove my worth? Should I work awhile before I apply?
What is the official GPA on your transcript? Some grad programs put much more emphasis on your junior-senior GPA (perhaps hard to define in your case, but maybe the latter half of your credit-hours?). However, many universities will have a grad admission GPA cutoff of something like 3.0. If you are applying to PhD or research-oriented master's programs, do you have any research experience? Profs who could attest to your ability to do research? Because that's really what grad school is about, unless you're looking at something like a coursework-based MA.
If you are applying to the type of programs where a faculty advisor will be paying your tuition and/or a stipend out of their grant money, then I would expect potential advisors to be very concerned that you might not finish your degree in a timely manner, draining their resources while not producing results at a good pace. You need to convince them of your ability to commit to a project and work at a reasonable pace, in spite of what it sounds as though your academic history suggests. It's possible that working in your field for a while could enable you to prove yourself in this manner.
(I applied to grad school successfully a few years ago, but in the US and not in your field -- so if anyone specifically familiar with econ or philosophy departments comes along, their advice likely overrides this.)
posted by ecsh at 1:19 PM on February 25, 2009
If you are applying to the type of programs where a faculty advisor will be paying your tuition and/or a stipend out of their grant money, then I would expect potential advisors to be very concerned that you might not finish your degree in a timely manner, draining their resources while not producing results at a good pace. You need to convince them of your ability to commit to a project and work at a reasonable pace, in spite of what it sounds as though your academic history suggests. It's possible that working in your field for a while could enable you to prove yourself in this manner.
(I applied to grad school successfully a few years ago, but in the US and not in your field -- so if anyone specifically familiar with econ or philosophy departments comes along, their advice likely overrides this.)
posted by ecsh at 1:19 PM on February 25, 2009
On belated preview... yes, things are rather different if you are expecting to pay rather than to be paid.
posted by ecsh at 1:21 PM on February 25, 2009
posted by ecsh at 1:21 PM on February 25, 2009
I think you could be accepted, but you would have to address how your life has changed and that you could handle the demands of a graduate program. Your academic references could also address the issue, and, if they agree that you can handle it, state that they believe you are prepared for graduate work; give them a copy of your personal statement to read.
That said, don't go to grad school without funding - certainly not a PhD. Just don't. Watching people take research degrees without funding is like seeing people take up smoking. A 3.8 is an excellent GPA - with good recommendations, a statement explaining how you've changed and a good writing sample, you should be going for programs that offer good funding. That might mean looking outside of Canada - I did, and I never regret that decision. Whereas I would be financially sunk right now if I hadn't.
But if you do stay in Canada for a PhD - get your applications into SSHRC (I think they do Econ and Philosophy) asap - they will fund you for four years if you apply 12 months before you begin grad work, but only for three years if you apply in the first year of your PhD, and so forth.
Also - working before you apply never hurts, and could help. Studying is stressfull - finishing a BA is like running a 4 year race, and graduate school even longer. I burned out in the third year of my PhD because I hadn't taken a break, but some people are fine. But given your up and down history, a few years working to show you have drive and commitment could look good - just make sure you talk to your academic references before you leave your current uni, and that they will remember you for when it comes to write references.
posted by jb at 2:38 PM on February 25, 2009
That said, don't go to grad school without funding - certainly not a PhD. Just don't. Watching people take research degrees without funding is like seeing people take up smoking. A 3.8 is an excellent GPA - with good recommendations, a statement explaining how you've changed and a good writing sample, you should be going for programs that offer good funding. That might mean looking outside of Canada - I did, and I never regret that decision. Whereas I would be financially sunk right now if I hadn't.
But if you do stay in Canada for a PhD - get your applications into SSHRC (I think they do Econ and Philosophy) asap - they will fund you for four years if you apply 12 months before you begin grad work, but only for three years if you apply in the first year of your PhD, and so forth.
Also - working before you apply never hurts, and could help. Studying is stressfull - finishing a BA is like running a 4 year race, and graduate school even longer. I burned out in the third year of my PhD because I hadn't taken a break, but some people are fine. But given your up and down history, a few years working to show you have drive and commitment could look good - just make sure you talk to your academic references before you leave your current uni, and that they will remember you for when it comes to write references.
posted by jb at 2:38 PM on February 25, 2009
That said, don't go to grad school without funding - certainly not a PhD. Just don't.
Absolutely. If this means having to work for a couple of years, then do that, you'll most likely feel better off and it may well reflect positively on your application. It'll also make you value grad school all the more. Best of luck.
posted by ob at 2:59 PM on February 25, 2009
Absolutely. If this means having to work for a couple of years, then do that, you'll most likely feel better off and it may well reflect positively on your application. It'll also make you value grad school all the more. Best of luck.
posted by ob at 2:59 PM on February 25, 2009
Canadian philosopher grad student here. Esch's warning about faculty advisors being wary of you wasting their money fortunately doesn't apply: if you get any money, it'd most likely be (a) an external scholarship, (b) some kind of standard departmental/university stipend, or (c) TA work. RA work tends not to be the bulk of anyone's funding, at least at any of the schools I applied to and know about.
I think your grades wouldn't necessarily turn off every admissions committee in the country, but it might make you a tougher sell at the ones that attract a lot of competition (Toronto, Western, UBC). And with the job market as it is, Brian Leiter is right: it doesn't make sense to do a philosophy PhD if you're not going to a top school. (Not even then, many would argue...)
However, I think your biggest admissions hurdle--at any school--wouldn't be the rollercoaster transcript, but the fact that you didn't major in philosophy. Usually, you have to make a special case for yourself if you fall into that category (e.g. your statement of purpose might say something like "my work in economics has given me a burning desire to philosophize about rational choice theory"). Still, this puts you into two red flag categories: no phil major, and the grades thing. So one thing you could do to prove your worth, as you put it, would be to turn that minor in philosophy into a double econ/phil major. After 8 years, I doubt that's an appealing prospect!
Sorry if this is discouraging. Good luck, and feel free to MeFi mail me if you have any other questions (though I guess I don't know how the anonymity could be preserved).
posted by Beardman at 3:10 PM on February 25, 2009
I think your grades wouldn't necessarily turn off every admissions committee in the country, but it might make you a tougher sell at the ones that attract a lot of competition (Toronto, Western, UBC). And with the job market as it is, Brian Leiter is right: it doesn't make sense to do a philosophy PhD if you're not going to a top school. (Not even then, many would argue...)
However, I think your biggest admissions hurdle--at any school--wouldn't be the rollercoaster transcript, but the fact that you didn't major in philosophy. Usually, you have to make a special case for yourself if you fall into that category (e.g. your statement of purpose might say something like "my work in economics has given me a burning desire to philosophize about rational choice theory"). Still, this puts you into two red flag categories: no phil major, and the grades thing. So one thing you could do to prove your worth, as you put it, would be to turn that minor in philosophy into a double econ/phil major. After 8 years, I doubt that's an appealing prospect!
Sorry if this is discouraging. Good luck, and feel free to MeFi mail me if you have any other questions (though I guess I don't know how the anonymity could be preserved).
posted by Beardman at 3:10 PM on February 25, 2009
Sorry, I meant "Canadian philosophy grad student here." Gawd. And I regularly gripe about people who think they merit the title "philosopher" just because they finished their doctorate!
P.S. Agreed about not going without funding. Just say no.
posted by Beardman at 3:12 PM on February 25, 2009
P.S. Agreed about not going without funding. Just say no.
posted by Beardman at 3:12 PM on February 25, 2009
Even if your grades are good enough to get in, someone will have to agree to take you on and become your supervisor. Before you go submitting applications, I'd recommend getting into contact with some profs at the universities you're aiming for, and convincing them you're very interested in their area of expertise.
posted by lizbunny at 5:31 PM on February 25, 2009
posted by lizbunny at 5:31 PM on February 25, 2009
I don't know anything about Canadian programs specifically, but I can tell you this: it will matter a great deal to econ grad programs which courses you did well in and which courses you did poorly in. Econ grad programs want to see demonstrated skill in math (good grades in real analysis and statistics) and research potential. I don't think many departments would care about F's in subjects unrelated to math or econ, as long as you gave some justification ("I had some problems in my life at the time but I've dealt with them and now I'm a great student!"); however, poor grades in math would be a red flag. If you can't do undergrad-level math, you're unlikely to make it through the first year of grad school.
Regardless, applying to many many programs is a good way to get accepted to at least one. Go wild.
posted by L0 at 11:47 PM on February 25, 2009
Regardless, applying to many many programs is a good way to get accepted to at least one. Go wild.
posted by L0 at 11:47 PM on February 25, 2009
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I say this as someone who went completely overboard studying for the GMAT exam for business school. I thought that I would need a 650 (80th percentile) to get in anywhere in light that I had a D in a course from first year of undergrad. It turns out they were letting people in with 450 (50th percentile) because they need to increase enrollment every year. I went to one of the top 10 schools in Canada.
P.S., study Economics and read the odd philosophy book for fun.
posted by dobie at 1:16 PM on February 25, 2009