No points = No insurance increase?
January 20, 2009 1:41 AM Subscribe
Does insurance still increase if no points are awarded in a speeding infraction?
If so, how severely?
If so, how severely?
wfrgms is wrong about the points system. That really isn't designed with insurance in mind, though insurance companies do use it. It's designed to give the state options between complete license suspension and doing nothing at all. For a reckless DUI, the state wants to take your license right away. But for running a stop sign? Seems a bit harsn. So depending on the severity of the infraction, you could get caught doing something one, two, or a handful of times before you lose your license.
Insurance companies use points on your license as a kind of guide for how much of a risk you are, but they're entirely capable of using even minor movings with no points to raise your rates. Whether or not they actually will is a different question entirely, and one no one here is going to be able to answer.
So the answer is "Maybe." Odds are pretty good they won't even notice, at least not for your next renewal. Unless you've been a bad risk in the past it's unlikely that their underwriters are going to go over you with a fine tooth comb when it comes time for your next renewal, and unless they do, no one is going to run your driving record. Your best bet is just not to mention it to your insurance company and then try to do something about it if they raise your rates. If you do mention it, they will notice, and then they probably will raise your rates.
posted by valkyryn at 3:22 AM on January 20, 2009
Insurance companies use points on your license as a kind of guide for how much of a risk you are, but they're entirely capable of using even minor movings with no points to raise your rates. Whether or not they actually will is a different question entirely, and one no one here is going to be able to answer.
So the answer is "Maybe." Odds are pretty good they won't even notice, at least not for your next renewal. Unless you've been a bad risk in the past it's unlikely that their underwriters are going to go over you with a fine tooth comb when it comes time for your next renewal, and unless they do, no one is going to run your driving record. Your best bet is just not to mention it to your insurance company and then try to do something about it if they raise your rates. If you do mention it, they will notice, and then they probably will raise your rates.
posted by valkyryn at 3:22 AM on January 20, 2009
if you're feeling brave, call up your insurance company and ask (but I'd be hesitant about giving your name and policy number.
I did this regarding an accident- found the insurance co (AAA's insurance wing) to be very helpful and understanding.
(For posterity- it was a minor accident where another driver tagged my bumper. I wanted to know what to do, as I have heard competing advice. Some say that if it's obvious who was at fault, you don't have to worry. Others say that it doesn't matter who's at fault, it's still a ding on your record. What they told me was that both cases are true, depending. If you file a claim with your insurance company, that's when it doesn't matter who is at fault- it goes on your record as a claim and can affect future rates. But if you fix it yourself, or try to work with the other driver's company for a settlement, they don't care. Basically, if you don't bother them, they won't bother you. It's up to the customer what they do- if you need immediate repair, it's in your interest to file a claim with your own company, since that's what they are there for. But if the car works and you are willing to negotiate with the opposing company, go for it. This may vary state by state.)
posted by gjc at 7:41 AM on January 20, 2009
I did this regarding an accident- found the insurance co (AAA's insurance wing) to be very helpful and understanding.
(For posterity- it was a minor accident where another driver tagged my bumper. I wanted to know what to do, as I have heard competing advice. Some say that if it's obvious who was at fault, you don't have to worry. Others say that it doesn't matter who's at fault, it's still a ding on your record. What they told me was that both cases are true, depending. If you file a claim with your insurance company, that's when it doesn't matter who is at fault- it goes on your record as a claim and can affect future rates. But if you fix it yourself, or try to work with the other driver's company for a settlement, they don't care. Basically, if you don't bother them, they won't bother you. It's up to the customer what they do- if you need immediate repair, it's in your interest to file a claim with your own company, since that's what they are there for. But if the car works and you are willing to negotiate with the opposing company, go for it. This may vary state by state.)
posted by gjc at 7:41 AM on January 20, 2009
I am an insurance agent, and I am licensed in your state. Insurance points != license points.
Points on your license are used by the state as an easy way to tally up your infractions and let you know when you need a smack in the face (in the form of a restricted license).
Insurance points dictate what tier (preferred, normal, casualty, etc) you belong in within the insurance company. The number of points assigned each infraction, and the number that would move you to a different tier are arbitrary to each insurance company.
The difference in points means you could have two points on your license but six insurance points. Or vice versa. There is no correlation between the two: the state cites you for an infraction, the insurance company penalizes you for that infraction. A discussion on points does not take place between the two.
What you can do to avoid this: avoid calling your insurance company with questions (unless you really need to), and try not to file any claims - if you have homeowner's insurance through the same company, same goes for them. What will happen is your name may come up for a random MVR check and bam! they've got your ticket. Your goal is to fly under the radar until your renewal.
When renewal rolls around, you might get popped automatically. Nothing you can do about that. However, if they ask, always say you have no new violations that you know of. I have pulled many a MVR after someone told me they had a ticket and never saw it. But you bet your ass the company said I still had to charge for it. Admit nothing. And if your renewal comes round and nothing changes, don't sweat it until your next renewal.
posted by sephira at 7:42 AM on January 20, 2009 [1 favorite]
Points on your license are used by the state as an easy way to tally up your infractions and let you know when you need a smack in the face (in the form of a restricted license).
Insurance points dictate what tier (preferred, normal, casualty, etc) you belong in within the insurance company. The number of points assigned each infraction, and the number that would move you to a different tier are arbitrary to each insurance company.
The difference in points means you could have two points on your license but six insurance points. Or vice versa. There is no correlation between the two: the state cites you for an infraction, the insurance company penalizes you for that infraction. A discussion on points does not take place between the two.
What you can do to avoid this: avoid calling your insurance company with questions (unless you really need to), and try not to file any claims - if you have homeowner's insurance through the same company, same goes for them. What will happen is your name may come up for a random MVR check and bam! they've got your ticket. Your goal is to fly under the radar until your renewal.
When renewal rolls around, you might get popped automatically. Nothing you can do about that. However, if they ask, always say you have no new violations that you know of. I have pulled many a MVR after someone told me they had a ticket and never saw it. But you bet your ass the company said I still had to charge for it. Admit nothing. And if your renewal comes round and nothing changes, don't sweat it until your next renewal.
posted by sephira at 7:42 AM on January 20, 2009 [1 favorite]
So the answer is "Maybe." Odds are pretty good they won't even notice, at least not for your next renewal. Unless you've been a bad risk in the past it's unlikely that their underwriters are going to go over you with a fine tooth comb when it comes time for your next renewal, and unless they do, no one is going to run your driving record. Your best bet is just not to mention it to your insurance company and then try to do something about it if they raise your rates. If you do mention it, they will notice, and then they probably will raise your rates.
Also, might depend on your policy. There might be a requirement that you report these things to your insurance company, and sanctions might go up if instead, they find out on their own. The rationale would be that by not reporting a change in your status, you have lied to them by ommission. But I don't know.
The other possibility is that, at least in my state, if you pay a higher fine and/or go to traffic school, the violation doesn't even go on your public record. Meaning, legally, it didn't happen.
posted by gjc at 7:45 AM on January 20, 2009
Also, might depend on your policy. There might be a requirement that you report these things to your insurance company, and sanctions might go up if instead, they find out on their own. The rationale would be that by not reporting a change in your status, you have lied to them by ommission. But I don't know.
The other possibility is that, at least in my state, if you pay a higher fine and/or go to traffic school, the violation doesn't even go on your public record. Meaning, legally, it didn't happen.
posted by gjc at 7:45 AM on January 20, 2009
gjc is absolutely right - you can call for advice but don't give them your name or policy information, and don't call from your home phone. Most companies now have software that auto-populates information based on your telephone number, and when people call asking how a DUI will affect their policy, but don't actually give their policy info thought it auto-populates... that guy is being watched by the underwriters.
posted by sephira at 7:47 AM on January 20, 2009
posted by sephira at 7:47 AM on January 20, 2009
sephira is right, at least that's how it works in NY. The DMV points system and the insurance companies points systems that they each have are not the same thing. I've heard of people getting a ticket, getting no points, but still having their rates go up.
posted by Brian Puccio at 10:08 AM on January 20, 2009
posted by Brian Puccio at 10:08 AM on January 20, 2009
However, if they ask, always say you have no new violations that you know of
Wouldn't lying to your insurance company be considered fraud? Uk example.
posted by JonB at 12:18 PM on January 20, 2009
Wouldn't lying to your insurance company be considered fraud? Uk example.
posted by JonB at 12:18 PM on January 20, 2009
Wouldn't lying to your insurance company be considered fraud? Uk example.
I don't know anything about insurance law in the UK, but in the US the company automatically assumes you are lying - the burden of proof falls on the company, hence they pull KLUR and MVR (unless you admit it outright, as I've stated). Since they have to pay for these reports, they hedge their bets and pull them only occasionally, not every time. Unless you are lying to obtain a policy, such as in the article you linked, or you are trying to file a fraudulent claim, there's no grounds for fraud (especially considering there's no way of knowing if it was a deliberate omission or a slip of the memory).
posted by sephira at 12:48 PM on January 20, 2009
I don't know anything about insurance law in the UK, but in the US the company automatically assumes you are lying - the burden of proof falls on the company, hence they pull KLUR and MVR (unless you admit it outright, as I've stated). Since they have to pay for these reports, they hedge their bets and pull them only occasionally, not every time. Unless you are lying to obtain a policy, such as in the article you linked, or you are trying to file a fraudulent claim, there's no grounds for fraud (especially considering there's no way of knowing if it was a deliberate omission or a slip of the memory).
posted by sephira at 12:48 PM on January 20, 2009
If you are found to be lying on your renewal questionnaire, likely your insurance provider will be allowed to cancel your policy and could turn you over to the insurance fraud division.
posted by JonB at 1:33 PM on January 20, 2009
posted by JonB at 1:33 PM on January 20, 2009
If you are found to be lying on your renewal questionnaire, likely your insurance provider will be allowed to cancel your policy and could turn you over to the insurance fraud division.
Again, how will they know you are lying? They don't, and unless you are repeatedly lying and being found out (in which case, you suck at lying and need to stop, not to mention stop being ticketed), or you are being retarded and going for out and out fraud (case in point: you state your car was stolen when you really parked in a lot and set it on fire).
Could they cancel you? They probably are within their rights to cancel your policy, but even that varies from state to state. Will they cancel you over an omitted ticket? No, because they want your money, and unless you've hit a certain number of insurance points and you aren't worth the risk, in which case you are being dropped for the ticket, not the omission. Otherwise, they'll adjust your rates and send you a "hey, btw, we found this on your MVR" letter. Insurance fraud is so rampant those departments are designated solely to accident fraud. They're more interested in the criminals bilking the company out of thousands per incident rather than the dude looking for save a few bucks per year by forgetting he had gotten a ticket. Investigating whether or not someone actually forgot about a speeding ticket two years ago or deliberately left it off is not worth their time, not to mention, damn near impossible to prove. And, as I've stated, it may not be on your MVR at all. The company gets more from your continued renewal and payment of your premium than they do checking your MVR each and every time for new activity.
Additionally, the article you link is New Jersey specific, which is notorious for it's complicated insurance laws, and the poster is in Michigan. I think he'll be fine. I'm not encouraging fibbing to your insurer - it would be better if you didn't have any violations to report or that you wanted to try to hide - but I am saying that it is an occurrence that happens everyday and that YMMV.
posted by sephira at 2:46 PM on January 20, 2009
Again, how will they know you are lying? They don't, and unless you are repeatedly lying and being found out (in which case, you suck at lying and need to stop, not to mention stop being ticketed), or you are being retarded and going for out and out fraud (case in point: you state your car was stolen when you really parked in a lot and set it on fire).
Could they cancel you? They probably are within their rights to cancel your policy, but even that varies from state to state. Will they cancel you over an omitted ticket? No, because they want your money, and unless you've hit a certain number of insurance points and you aren't worth the risk, in which case you are being dropped for the ticket, not the omission. Otherwise, they'll adjust your rates and send you a "hey, btw, we found this on your MVR" letter. Insurance fraud is so rampant those departments are designated solely to accident fraud. They're more interested in the criminals bilking the company out of thousands per incident rather than the dude looking for save a few bucks per year by forgetting he had gotten a ticket. Investigating whether or not someone actually forgot about a speeding ticket two years ago or deliberately left it off is not worth their time, not to mention, damn near impossible to prove. And, as I've stated, it may not be on your MVR at all. The company gets more from your continued renewal and payment of your premium than they do checking your MVR each and every time for new activity.
Additionally, the article you link is New Jersey specific, which is notorious for it's complicated insurance laws, and the poster is in Michigan. I think he'll be fine. I'm not encouraging fibbing to your insurer - it would be better if you didn't have any violations to report or that you wanted to try to hide - but I am saying that it is an occurrence that happens everyday and that YMMV.
posted by sephira at 2:46 PM on January 20, 2009
This thread is closed to new comments.
Still, insurance companies are notoriously arbitrary and greedy, so I'd make so phone calls. Talk to the traffic court (they won't know for sure either, but it's a start) then talk to the DMV and maybe... if you're feeling brave, call up your insurance company and ask (but I'd be hesitant about giving your name and policy number.)
posted by wfrgms at 1:48 AM on January 20, 2009