Pretty please don't profit off torture?
December 29, 2008 12:32 PM Subscribe
If you knew someone considering doing business with the Chinese Government, how would you convince them of it's moral reprehensiveness as neatly and concisely as possible?
You would have to assume that they share your morals and that they agree with your conception that the Chinese Government defies those morals. Also, you would have to assume that the person's business with the Chinese does not have the intent and/or effect of changing the nature of the Chinese.
If any of these factors are not in sync, you will have to change the mores of another individual. This can be quite difficult. If you are in sync, just show them the same evidence which convinced you of the nature of the Chinese Government.
posted by Pollomacho at 12:46 PM on December 29, 2008
If any of these factors are not in sync, you will have to change the mores of another individual. This can be quite difficult. If you are in sync, just show them the same evidence which convinced you of the nature of the Chinese Government.
posted by Pollomacho at 12:46 PM on December 29, 2008
Start from what's important to your audience. What are his real goals? His values? Does he care about the world his children will live in? Does he have compassion for children, respect for the way a freer society encourages businesses like his, a sincere belief that _________ is the way to make the world a better place, or that only __________ keeps it from falling apart?
You can't start by talking about your own values, or what you assume he believes is important. You have to first understand him as a person, then you can talk to him about what you see in this action that affects what he wants to happen. Gently, and with respect.
posted by amtho at 12:58 PM on December 29, 2008
You can't start by talking about your own values, or what you assume he believes is important. You have to first understand him as a person, then you can talk to him about what you see in this action that affects what he wants to happen. Gently, and with respect.
posted by amtho at 12:58 PM on December 29, 2008
and if you're going with the torture aspect - be prepared to answer the counter argument of "so everyone that works for or with the US federal government condones it's policy of torture?"
posted by nadawi at 1:12 PM on December 29, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by nadawi at 1:12 PM on December 29, 2008 [1 favorite]
Yeah, what nadawi said. Don't we not get to play this card anymore?
posted by Aquaman at 1:33 PM on December 29, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Aquaman at 1:33 PM on December 29, 2008 [1 favorite]
Exactly the same way you'd convince them of the moral reprehensiveness of doing business with damn near any other government, or the many non-state organisations that engage in some form of morally reprehensible activity. Or is China somehow special?
posted by Dysk at 1:41 PM on December 29, 2008
posted by Dysk at 1:41 PM on December 29, 2008
Tell them that you are only asking them for this one conversation, give yourself a time limit, and stick to both of those. If they want to give you more time that's fine, but once you've had your say you need to be done and not force your ideas onto them.
posted by theichibun at 2:05 PM on December 29, 2008
posted by theichibun at 2:05 PM on December 29, 2008
To expand on nadawi's point, it's a bit foolish to see the Chinese government as a monolith exclusively staffed by willing tools of repression. My advice would very much depend on the specific nature of the project, what specifics it entails and its likely outcomes. For example, if they were merely coming here to exploit low labour costs and poor industrial safety enforcement I would condemn them.
I have acquaintances who have run civil society programmes educating about rights and democracy who were only able to carry out their work because of the support of Communist Party county Party secretaries. I've worked alongside some sterling individuals from regional Poverty Alleviation bureaux myself. These individuals operate within a system that has all the shortcomings we are familiar with and many more that don't even get on the radar of the Western media, but are good people doing good work within the reality they find themselves.
posted by Abiezer at 3:01 PM on December 29, 2008 [1 favorite]
I have acquaintances who have run civil society programmes educating about rights and democracy who were only able to carry out their work because of the support of Communist Party county Party secretaries. I've worked alongside some sterling individuals from regional Poverty Alleviation bureaux myself. These individuals operate within a system that has all the shortcomings we are familiar with and many more that don't even get on the radar of the Western media, but are good people doing good work within the reality they find themselves.
posted by Abiezer at 3:01 PM on December 29, 2008 [1 favorite]
You would only convince them of the "moral reprehensiveness" of dealing with the Chinese government if a) that were true and b) they already agreed with you. This is not your business, and if you try to make it your business, no good will come of it.
Furthermore, if we were to restrict ourselves to doing business only with parties with the cleanest of hands, there would be no more business to do. To suggest that a friend not undertake business because of an uninformed generalization about the government of the largest country in the world is naive in the extreme.
posted by sinfony at 3:31 PM on December 29, 2008 [1 favorite]
Furthermore, if we were to restrict ourselves to doing business only with parties with the cleanest of hands, there would be no more business to do. To suggest that a friend not undertake business because of an uninformed generalization about the government of the largest country in the world is naive in the extreme.
posted by sinfony at 3:31 PM on December 29, 2008 [1 favorite]
Best answer: As with the other posters I disagree with your premise**. However I've answered your question as best as I can, just because I like to think being right shouldn't effect a good argument. :-)
--
You didn't exactly give a lot of detail, as to what sort of business your friend is in (medical supplies or arms and ammo, it makes a difference) but I'll just assume it's something generic that in and of itself doesn't lend weight to your case and leave that be.
Here's a list of debating tactics that may or may not apply in your situation. You may find one you like.
Basically you're looking at a three pronged approach.
1) Establishing that China is bad.
2) Establishing that your friend trading with China not improve that situation
3) Establishing that your friend is therefore bad for trading with China.
No country looks good by Amnesty International's standards so they're a good place to start to make your case that China is bad.
From there you might incorporate an argument that trade with China is harmful to the US economy in the first place. (There's losts more on this point out there, it's a common argument.)
Finially, you want to make your friend feel bad or feel like other people are going to think they're bad. Dig up some articiles on Yahoo and Google's problems in China in the last few years and draw your friends attention to the fact that even supposedly uplifting information technology can be abused by the Chinese govenrment to keep their people down - and more importantly point out how bad Yahoo and Google got roasted in the press and in front of congress. No one likes to have to explain their trade policy to congress.
Lastly (and possibly irrevelvant) take a look at the idea of 'dual-use' technology (in the wide sense, not just in terms of weapons of mass destruction). Ask your friend it they're 100% certain that their exported goods are being used for their intended purpose. Seeds of doubt go a long way further than an actual concrete argument - the friend can't even really be 100% certain what their product is being used for.
**A much better question would be: How does my friend ensure that his trade with China has a net positive effect on the human rights situation in that country? (Because if your friend doesn't sell them what they want they will get it somewhere else, and then as Edmund Burke said, he'll just be a good person doing nothing.)
posted by tiamat at 5:18 PM on December 29, 2008
--
You didn't exactly give a lot of detail, as to what sort of business your friend is in (medical supplies or arms and ammo, it makes a difference) but I'll just assume it's something generic that in and of itself doesn't lend weight to your case and leave that be.
Here's a list of debating tactics that may or may not apply in your situation. You may find one you like.
Basically you're looking at a three pronged approach.
1) Establishing that China is bad.
2) Establishing that your friend trading with China not improve that situation
3) Establishing that your friend is therefore bad for trading with China.
No country looks good by Amnesty International's standards so they're a good place to start to make your case that China is bad.
From there you might incorporate an argument that trade with China is harmful to the US economy in the first place. (There's losts more on this point out there, it's a common argument.)
Finially, you want to make your friend feel bad or feel like other people are going to think they're bad. Dig up some articiles on Yahoo and Google's problems in China in the last few years and draw your friends attention to the fact that even supposedly uplifting information technology can be abused by the Chinese govenrment to keep their people down - and more importantly point out how bad Yahoo and Google got roasted in the press and in front of congress. No one likes to have to explain their trade policy to congress.
Lastly (and possibly irrevelvant) take a look at the idea of 'dual-use' technology (in the wide sense, not just in terms of weapons of mass destruction). Ask your friend it they're 100% certain that their exported goods are being used for their intended purpose. Seeds of doubt go a long way further than an actual concrete argument - the friend can't even really be 100% certain what their product is being used for.
**A much better question would be: How does my friend ensure that his trade with China has a net positive effect on the human rights situation in that country? (Because if your friend doesn't sell them what they want they will get it somewhere else, and then as Edmund Burke said, he'll just be a good person doing nothing.)
posted by tiamat at 5:18 PM on December 29, 2008
Depends on a few things:
1. What sort of business are we talking about?
2. Which branch of the Chinese government?
3. What in particular do you object to about Chinese government policy?
4. Are you certain that the branch involved participates in this particular policy?
5. Is the person you're trying to convince a family member or friend, or is it someone you don't know?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:28 PM on December 29, 2008
1. What sort of business are we talking about?
2. Which branch of the Chinese government?
3. What in particular do you object to about Chinese government policy?
4. Are you certain that the branch involved participates in this particular policy?
5. Is the person you're trying to convince a family member or friend, or is it someone you don't know?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:28 PM on December 29, 2008
The Chinese government is an absolutely huge and by no means monolithic entity. To say that it whole advocates and practices torture, as you do in your post is frankly both incredibly ignorant and biased.
Parts of the PRC regularly engage in activity against its own citizens we would consider torture, but other parts are responsible for the single largest moment of people out of poverty and famine in the history of humankind. Parts of the PRC are responsible for regular human rights abuses in Xinjiang and Tibet, but other parts are experimenting with democracy at a regional level and responded to the earthquake in Sichuan with a rapidity and scale that make our own efforts in New Orleans look pathetic.
Before you go judging other countries based on partial snippets of information you ought to make sure you actually bother to learn about them.
Nothing is ever black and white.
posted by BobbyDigital at 9:57 AM on December 30, 2008
Parts of the PRC regularly engage in activity against its own citizens we would consider torture, but other parts are responsible for the single largest moment of people out of poverty and famine in the history of humankind. Parts of the PRC are responsible for regular human rights abuses in Xinjiang and Tibet, but other parts are experimenting with democracy at a regional level and responded to the earthquake in Sichuan with a rapidity and scale that make our own efforts in New Orleans look pathetic.
Before you go judging other countries based on partial snippets of information you ought to make sure you actually bother to learn about them.
Nothing is ever black and white.
posted by BobbyDigital at 9:57 AM on December 30, 2008
Mod note: a few comments removed - this is not a "would you do this" question, please feel free to not answer it as such
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 10:54 AM on December 30, 2008
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 10:54 AM on December 30, 2008
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by jabberjaw at 12:44 PM on December 29, 2008