Iz I stooopid?
December 18, 2008 6:15 AM Subscribe
Do I really need to have graduated from a 4 year university to get a job in Germany?
I have been working for a company for several years - and a while ago took a job in a country where I was unable to get a work permit because I hadn't graduated from college (I went for 4.5 years, and due to blah blah blah...didn't graduate). I've been doing my (art field related) job for over 10 years now, have risen through the ranks and now am holding one of the top positions in my field.
I'm being transfered to Germany, and now have to apply for a work permit again in another country, and even though everyone in my company knows that I didn't graduate, and could care less, I'm thinking about getting a fake diploma, or making one myself, just to ease this process. Should I do it? Should I suck it up and just provide the things again that I provided for my first foreign assignment (HS diploma, college transcripts, cv) and see where the chips fall?
I'm currently in a non-EU country, so I'm hoping that Germany is more sane with the whole experience vs education thing, but on the other hand, I REALLY want this to work out.
I have been working for a company for several years - and a while ago took a job in a country where I was unable to get a work permit because I hadn't graduated from college (I went for 4.5 years, and due to blah blah blah...didn't graduate). I've been doing my (art field related) job for over 10 years now, have risen through the ranks and now am holding one of the top positions in my field.
I'm being transfered to Germany, and now have to apply for a work permit again in another country, and even though everyone in my company knows that I didn't graduate, and could care less, I'm thinking about getting a fake diploma, or making one myself, just to ease this process. Should I do it? Should I suck it up and just provide the things again that I provided for my first foreign assignment (HS diploma, college transcripts, cv) and see where the chips fall?
I'm currently in a non-EU country, so I'm hoping that Germany is more sane with the whole experience vs education thing, but on the other hand, I REALLY want this to work out.
You're being transferred right? So your company is sponsoring you for the work permit? All of the wording I can find on requiring a degree says 'usually', which means exceptions will very likely be granted for someone (like you) with particular experience, skills and a connection/sponsorship by a company.
Put it this way - providing false documentation for a work permit application is very likely to get you deported or your application refused if they found out. It is not worth the risk of that. The university requirement is a basic provision in most countries to prevent attempted immigration by hundreds of thousands of unskilled workers.
Speak to the HR person who is assisting you with the transfer. If there isn't anyone assisting you, there really should be. But don't fake documentation when going through EU immigration, they will boot you out without a second thought if they think you've lied to them.
posted by Happy Dave at 6:39 AM on December 18, 2008
Put it this way - providing false documentation for a work permit application is very likely to get you deported or your application refused if they found out. It is not worth the risk of that. The university requirement is a basic provision in most countries to prevent attempted immigration by hundreds of thousands of unskilled workers.
Speak to the HR person who is assisting you with the transfer. If there isn't anyone assisting you, there really should be. But don't fake documentation when going through EU immigration, they will boot you out without a second thought if they think you've lied to them.
posted by Happy Dave at 6:39 AM on December 18, 2008
No, you don't - I don't have one, and I know other Americans here who don't either. It takes a little longer to get the work permit, around 4 weeks, and you have to provide more documentation to prove that you have skills that are difficult to find in the EU (I just had a couple of former managers, the closest to Chief Something Officer the better, write letters in support), but it is not difficult. You'll also be asked to provide a copy of your high school diploma and college transcripts.
To prepare, get reference letters from former employers (feel free to MeFiMail me for the examples my immigration lawyer gave me), and work with your German manager to write up a detailed job description that will be used by the government to look for EU candidates - make it very specific. Also write up a detailed CV that corresponds to the job description (and don't lie on it. A fake diploma? Seriously?).
An important question to ask your German employer is if they'll be using an immigration attorney to process the paperwork or if you have to do it yourself. If they're using an attorney, just tell them you don't have a degree, and they'll tell you want you need.
If you have any other questions, feel free to mail me directly.
posted by cmonkey at 6:44 AM on December 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
To prepare, get reference letters from former employers (feel free to MeFiMail me for the examples my immigration lawyer gave me), and work with your German manager to write up a detailed job description that will be used by the government to look for EU candidates - make it very specific. Also write up a detailed CV that corresponds to the job description (and don't lie on it. A fake diploma? Seriously?).
An important question to ask your German employer is if they'll be using an immigration attorney to process the paperwork or if you have to do it yourself. If they're using an attorney, just tell them you don't have a degree, and they'll tell you want you need.
If you have any other questions, feel free to mail me directly.
posted by cmonkey at 6:44 AM on December 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
Leaving the very real ethics issues of getting a fake diploma aside...
There are smart lies and there are stupid lies. Generally, lying on a visa app is a stupid lie. If you get caught out, the resulting shitshorm could be pretty catastrophic. You might be barred from working, living, or visiting the country you'd lied to get into in the first place. Or you might just look like a tool to your company for lying on the app.
If you need a work visa, let your company apply on your behalf. They have every right to insist that you in particular work for them on a particular project or in your current job capacity. There is such a thing as QBE (Qualified by experience). In my experience, if you're already working for a company (instead of being a new hire being brought in to the country), it's a little less stringent.
posted by Grrlscout at 6:50 AM on December 18, 2008
There are smart lies and there are stupid lies. Generally, lying on a visa app is a stupid lie. If you get caught out, the resulting shitshorm could be pretty catastrophic. You might be barred from working, living, or visiting the country you'd lied to get into in the first place. Or you might just look like a tool to your company for lying on the app.
If you need a work visa, let your company apply on your behalf. They have every right to insist that you in particular work for them on a particular project or in your current job capacity. There is such a thing as QBE (Qualified by experience). In my experience, if you're already working for a company (instead of being a new hire being brought in to the country), it's a little less stringent.
posted by Grrlscout at 6:50 AM on December 18, 2008
You may be about to do something you may seriously regret in the future. As others have said, if found out, your application will be refused. But it goes beyond that. In the future, when emigrating anywhere one of the standard questions is essentially "Have you ever had a permit/visa denied?"
Immigration is serious business. The discovery that you have faked a document could pretty much make it impossible for you to live/work anywhere outside of your home country in the future.
posted by vacapinta at 6:56 AM on December 18, 2008
Immigration is serious business. The discovery that you have faked a document could pretty much make it impossible for you to live/work anywhere outside of your home country in the future.
posted by vacapinta at 6:56 AM on December 18, 2008
Lying about information on a federal form could be charged as a felony. If any of the paper work goes through the US state department, or if Germany has an equivalent law, you could be screwed. Talk to your boss, don't fake anything.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:23 AM on December 18, 2008
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:23 AM on December 18, 2008
No. Do not falsify any information on your immigration paperwork in Germany. That is a bad thing. The opposite of good. Nicht in Ordnung.
I live and work in Germany and do not have a degree from a 4 year university. If you are going at the behest of your company, you will probably not have a problem as long as your company, assuming they have proper legal license to do business in Germany, sends a German speaking employee or representative to the Arbeitsamt and explains why they need you to work for them. This person should know what paperwork is required and make sure it gets where it needs to go. Your company should be handling this for you every step of the way. If they aren't, have them hire an immigration lawyer to help you through it. If your company won't provide this, you should seriously reconsider as German bureaucracy can be a real bitch. Try to have this person get the ball rolling before you arrive.
It will be easier if:
-you are applying for a permit for a set amount of time, say 6 months or a year. After that your company can renew for a longer period.
-EU citizen (no problems then really) or...
-American or Canadian
-you can speak some German or are enrolled in classes (This will also give you student status I think. Well it used to pre-911)
-have money in German bank so they know you are not a freeloader. Try to open a bank account as soon as you get to Germany.
-And unfortunately, if you are a nice clean cut white boy or girl.
You will then need to go to the Burgeramt and Ausländerbehörde (have fun) to fill out forms and once you are approved to work, you will have to select an insurance company.
You will not be able to live in Germany and work freelance until you have lived in Germany for 7 years. Things may have changed in the last few years, but I think that if your company wants you to "officially" be a freelancer in order to save money by not paying your health benefits, you will need to periodically leave the county for a few weeks at a time before you can legally enter and work again.
This is all from my personal experience. I have been here for over 7 years so things may have changed, especially post-911.
mail me if you have any questions.
Viel Glück!
posted by chillmost at 7:48 AM on December 18, 2008
I live and work in Germany and do not have a degree from a 4 year university. If you are going at the behest of your company, you will probably not have a problem as long as your company, assuming they have proper legal license to do business in Germany, sends a German speaking employee or representative to the Arbeitsamt and explains why they need you to work for them. This person should know what paperwork is required and make sure it gets where it needs to go. Your company should be handling this for you every step of the way. If they aren't, have them hire an immigration lawyer to help you through it. If your company won't provide this, you should seriously reconsider as German bureaucracy can be a real bitch. Try to have this person get the ball rolling before you arrive.
It will be easier if:
-you are applying for a permit for a set amount of time, say 6 months or a year. After that your company can renew for a longer period.
-EU citizen (no problems then really) or...
-American or Canadian
-you can speak some German or are enrolled in classes (This will also give you student status I think. Well it used to pre-911)
-have money in German bank so they know you are not a freeloader. Try to open a bank account as soon as you get to Germany.
-And unfortunately, if you are a nice clean cut white boy or girl.
You will then need to go to the Burgeramt and Ausländerbehörde (have fun) to fill out forms and once you are approved to work, you will have to select an insurance company.
You will not be able to live in Germany and work freelance until you have lived in Germany for 7 years. Things may have changed in the last few years, but I think that if your company wants you to "officially" be a freelancer in order to save money by not paying your health benefits, you will need to periodically leave the county for a few weeks at a time before you can legally enter and work again.
This is all from my personal experience. I have been here for over 7 years so things may have changed, especially post-911.
mail me if you have any questions.
Viel Glück!
posted by chillmost at 7:48 AM on December 18, 2008
everyone in my company knows that I didn't graduate, and could care less, I'm thinking about getting a fake diploma, or making one myself, just to ease this process.
They might not care about your lack of a degree, but are more likely to care about you lying about it. Even if they don't initially, I guarantee that the German immigration authorities will, and they will probably make a fuss with your employer such that they start caring about your lying ways.
It is really easy to check who has a degree. Some universities have web sites where you can submit the name of the student and it will tell you instantly what degrees they obtained. So out of all of the things to lie about, this is a pretty dumb one.
posted by grouse at 7:49 AM on December 18, 2008
They might not care about your lack of a degree, but are more likely to care about you lying about it. Even if they don't initially, I guarantee that the German immigration authorities will, and they will probably make a fuss with your employer such that they start caring about your lying ways.
It is really easy to check who has a degree. Some universities have web sites where you can submit the name of the student and it will tell you instantly what degrees they obtained. So out of all of the things to lie about, this is a pretty dumb one.
posted by grouse at 7:49 AM on December 18, 2008
This is all assuming you are a non-EU citizen. EU citizens have few to no problems working in Germany.
posted by chillmost at 7:52 AM on December 18, 2008
posted by chillmost at 7:52 AM on December 18, 2008
EU citizens have few to no problems working in Germany.
Derail: I'm German, and I think I'd have a problem getting a decent job there, not having a 4 year diploma. Germany's got the single most stupid hiring process in the western civilization. It's common to put a picture of yourself and the names and occupations of both parents on your CV. I get angry only thinking about it, and I don't even want to move back.
I realize that doesn't answer anonymous' question - I just want to express my solidarity, as someone who also didn't graduate, due to ... the usual reasons.
posted by dhoe at 8:45 AM on December 18, 2008
Derail: I'm German, and I think I'd have a problem getting a decent job there, not having a 4 year diploma. Germany's got the single most stupid hiring process in the western civilization. It's common to put a picture of yourself and the names and occupations of both parents on your CV. I get angry only thinking about it, and I don't even want to move back.
I realize that doesn't answer anonymous' question - I just want to express my solidarity, as someone who also didn't graduate, due to ... the usual reasons.
posted by dhoe at 8:45 AM on December 18, 2008
Unfortunately, for Germans there's really no excuse for not having a degree... university was free until 2005, and even now it's only some nominal fee like 500 Euros/semester. I knew more than a few students in their 30s still "working" on their degrees as full-time students when I stayed in Freiburg. Any degree requirement in a country with (basically) free education is essentially an anti-immigrant policy bundled up as "standards."
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 9:01 AM on December 18, 2008
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 9:01 AM on December 18, 2008
I'm German, and I think I'd have a problem getting a decent job there, not having a 4 year diploma.
Entschuldigung. I meant getting a work permit, which implies, in this case, that the job offer is already there.
posted by chillmost at 9:19 AM on December 18, 2008
Entschuldigung. I meant getting a work permit, which implies, in this case, that the job offer is already there.
posted by chillmost at 9:19 AM on December 18, 2008
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by emd3737 at 6:35 AM on December 18, 2008